Waking Up | EP 10 | Saskia's Story

Summary

Betrayal Weekly – Episode 10: "Waking Up | Saskia's Story"

Host: Andrea Gunning
Date: April 2, 2026
Podcast Network: iHeartPodcasts / Glass Podcasts

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Overview

This episode of Betrayal Weekly centers on Saskia, a survivor of devastating betrayal and sexual violence at the hands of her long-term partner. Host Andrea Gunning revisits the destruction "D-Day" brought to Saskia’s life, then traces her journey from reactivity and survival to tentative healing, self-discovery, and renewed trust — in herself, her community, and the production team behind the podcast. The episode also deeply explores vulnerability, isolation, and the slow, nonlinear nature of recovery, weaving in insights from psychotherapist Jessica Baum and Saskia’s loved ones.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Moment of Betrayal and Immediate Aftermath

• Saskia’s World Implodes
  • "Our life blew up on April 11th. April 2022 is when D-Day happened and everything just blew up." (Saskia, 03:47)
  • Saskia’s life unraveled overnight after learning of her partner Mike’s crimes, with wide-reaching impacts on her children and community.
  • "He completely ruined my family." (Saskia, 04:00)
• Host Reflection on Trauma
  • Andrea shares her own experience as a survivor: “In college, I was raped…For years, I blamed myself.” (Andrea, 05:29)
  • Contrasts her own self-blame with Saskia’s immediate clarity: “As soon as she found out what Mike did to her, she saw the truth clearly.” (Andrea, 06:05)

Immediate Strength in the Face of Betrayal

• Refusal to Share Blame
  • Saskia’s powerful confrontation:
    • “He said, I guess we're both a little bit crazy. I said, no, no, I have mental health issues. You're a predator and you're a monster.” (Saskia, 06:45)
  • She moved quickly to protect herself and others, reporting the crime and enduring the ordeal of a public trial.
• Public Stand Against Abuser
  • In court:
    • “You're a dangerous person who preys on vulnerable and trusting people. You're a sexual predator, Michael Levengood.” (Saskia, 07:14)
• Bravery Beyond the Courtroom
  • Prosecutor Ashley Enderfirth emphasizes: “While it is undoubtedly brave to come forward, sometimes bravery is just getting up the next morning and living your life.” (Ashley, 08:14)
  • Andrea’s realization: "Bravery isn't always about pursuing criminal action…just getting on with my life was the bravest version of myself." (Andrea, 08:36)

The Long Road to Recovery

• Redefining Daily Life and Agency
  • At first: “After the discovery, I wasn’t able to do anything. I wasn't able to work. I was constantly on hyper alert.” (Saskia, 09:23)
  • On reclaiming her agency:
    • “Seven years ago, I was like a baby…learning what I would choose to do on my own.” (Saskia, 09:50)
    • “For me to get my agency back…and be able to do what is good for me is where my power lies now.” (Saskia, 10:18)
• Growing Yet Isolating
  • Her sister, Marisa, notes Saskia’s transformation:
    • “She’s standing alone, she’s doing life, she’s creating her own stability now.” (Marisa, 10:50)
  • But also, her increased social isolation:
    • “She socially isolates more so than she ever did.” (Marisa, 11:15)
  • Saskia describes needing walls for protection: “I had no choice but to start to protect myself a little bit.” (Saskia, 11:39)
  • But knows this pushes others away: “I don’t think I can ever trust anybody. I don’t think I could ever fully be confident that someone wasn’t misleading me or manipulating me.” (Saskia, 13:10)

The Podcast as a Catalyst for Vulnerability

• Second-Guessing, Yet Continuing
  • Andrea and team recognize Saskia’s hesitance to go forward; she admits recording felt so hard she almost quit:
    • “It made me feel a little bit vulnerable, like they're seeing how hard this is for me. Like, what am I doing?” (Saskia, 14:21)
    • Ultimately: “I feel like this was the journey that was put in front of me and I was gonna see it through regardless of how difficult it was.” (Saskia, 14:40)
• Therapeutic Support and Internal Work
  • Weekly sessions with therapist Jessica Baum deepen Saskia’s process.
    • “It was so scary and so uncomfortable…I hid my face in my shirt.” (Saskia, 20:44)
    • “We have to get in touch with all the pain to do that.” (Jessica Baum, 21:25)
    • “Being vulnerable like this and feeling it, part of you wants to do the work and part of you is so uncomfortable…That's actually a very normal part of this experience.” (Jessica, 21:33)
  • Saskia comes to see bravery as “slowing down and feeling.” (Jessica/Saskia, 22:26–22:29)

Childhood Roots and Breaking the Pattern

• Early Loneliness and Self-Medication
  • “I still felt so alone and like a freak in school…I was really struggling with depression and anxiety.” (Saskia, 24:10)
  • On alcohol as early escape: “It helped me cope with a lot of things that I hadn’t dealt with yet were under the surface from my childhood.” (Saskia, 24:33)
• Seeking Safety and Love
  • “Mike was really the first person that I thought actually loved me and was safe. It would be awful even if it was a stranger, but the fact that this was my partner for seven years…” (Saskia, 25:13)
  • Jessica Baum: “When you grow up with childhood neglect and trauma, that very young part of you is looking to be taken care of.” (Jessica, 25:48)
  • “Looking at how I got to this place has been really important because I don’t need saving.” (Saskia, 26:55)

Choosing Herself and Redefining Healing

• “I feel like I’m giving myself as much space and time as I need to heal…That's when the healing has really started. I feel like I need to be able to trust myself before I'll be able to trust anybody else.” (Saskia, 27:15)
• Recognition that healing can only begin with self-trust and not external validation.
• Accepts that there was “no easier lesson that would have woke me up.” (Saskia, 27:55)

Reconnecting, Slowly, with Intimacy and Community

• Earning Trust through Podcast Collaboration
  • “The support that I felt from working on this podcast, it’s been something that I’ve never felt before. The empathy and the understanding…it was just what I needed to deal with it and heal.” (Saskia, 32:28)
  • “It’s the re-experiencing with the support that makes the difference.” (Jessica, 32:49)
• Practice in Trusting Others Again
  • Jess urges Saskia to apply her growing trust with the podcast team to others in her life:
    • “Instead of finding a new man and a new solution…lean on other people who don’t medicate the trauma, but can be with you in your pain.” (Jessica, 33:16)
  • Sister Marisa's evolving support: “Now she kind of asks, like, do you just want me to be here to listen?” (Saskia, 33:55)

Challenges in Friendship and Speaking Truth

• Difficulty Discussing Dark Experiences
  • “I’ve always put a lot of pressure on myself not to show how much pain I’m in.” (Saskia, 34:28)
  • “Before Mike, Saskia was the silly, bubbly one…But after her discovery, there was no putting on a happy face.” (Andrea, 34:59)
  • “Being around people that just had normal lives…It was easier for me to stay away.” (Saskia, 35:10)
• Friend Group’s Struggle to Address the Hard Stuff
  • “I think a lot of us are people pleasers and so we don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings…It’s genuine concern, but not having the confidence to bring it up directly with the person.” (Saskia, 35:56)
• Role of Societal Silence and Shame
  • Andrea: “We’ve all been taught not to talk about rape…it’s too violent, too gross…especially when it’s perpetrated by a good guy, a powerful guy or a partner.” (Andrea, 36:40)
  • The digital aftershock: evidence that “will live on on the Internet forever…It’s hard for anyone to talk about, even Saskia.” (Andrea, 37:19)
• Coping with Ongoing Digital Trauma
  • “You feel like just trying to block it out of your psyche is how you've been protecting yourself from it.” (Jessica, 37:43)
  • “I had suppressed this to just get by.” (Saskia, 37:48)
  • “She’s embarrassed about the idea of her being on display and that makes her want to shrink. But I think the side of her that wants to stand up for herself and will feel no shame is stronger.” (Marisa via Jessica, 38:02)

Moments of Connection and Hope

• Community Rallies Around Saskia
  • Friends begin to show up more, and Saskia: “I can't tell you how many good tears I've cried, realizing how much people care about me.” (Saskia, 38:48)
  • “She's finding new stability with the people who've been there all along.” (Andrea, 39:01)
• Reclaiming Joy (and Her Laughter)
  • Despite anxiety, Saskia hosts a get-together for friends and family — a true step forward.
  • Andrea describes hearing Saskia’s laughter again: “Saskia's laugh…it was the first time we really heard it for ourselves.” (Andrea, 40:39)

No Clean Ending—Just Moments of Light

• Recognizing Ongoing Recovery
  • “There’s no clean end to the journey Saskia’s on. She’ll never reach a point when she’s fully healed. I think healing is a series of smaller wins.” (Andrea, 41:00)
• Refusing to Stay in Darkness
  • “He pulled me into that darkness, and I refuse to live there.” (Saskia, 42:08)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Immediate Strength:
  • “No, I have mental health issues. You’re a predator and you’re a monster.” — Saskia (06:45)
• On Bravery in Survival:
  • “Sometimes bravery is just getting up the next morning and living your life.” — Ashley Enderfirth, prosecutor (08:14)
• On Self-Reliance After Betrayal:
  • “What I do know now is that I can do it on my own…If somebody makes me uncomfortable… I can walk away and I can still be okay.” — Saskia (27:15)
• On Changing Family Dynamics:
  • “She's standing alone, she's doing life, she's creating her own stability now.” — Marisa, sister (10:50)
• On Vulnerability in Healing:
  • “It’s the re-experiencing with the support that makes the difference.” — Jessica Baum (32:49)
• On Shame and Exposure:
  • "He pulled me into that darkness, and I refuse to live there." — Saskia (42:08)

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Important Timestamps

• D-Day and Immediate Fallout: 03:47–04:10
• Andrea’s Personal Disclosure: 05:29–06:30
• Saskia’s Confrontation of Mike: 06:45–07:14
• Ashley Enderfirth on Bravery: 08:14
• Early Recovery & Agency: 09:23–10:25
• Isolation & Trust Issues: 11:03–13:50
• Session Excerpt with Jessica Baum: 20:44–23:27
• Childhood & Attachment Discussion: 24:10–26:55
• Choosing Self, Breaking Patterns: 27:15
• Opening Up to Team & Friends: 32:28–34:18
• Friend Group Dynamics: 35:29–36:29
• Digital Evidence and Ongoing Trauma: 36:40–38:22
• Party and Community Support: 39:11–40:39
• Refusal to Stay in Darkness: 42:08

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Tone & Style

The episode navigates sensitive terrain with empathy and directness, honoring the raw, unvarnished emotions at play. The tone is measured but uplifting, balancing darkness with evidence of resilience, growth, and hope.

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Resources Mentioned

For help or to talk about your own experience:

• RAINN (Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network): rainn.org/betrayal — free, confidential 24/7 support (Text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE)

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Conclusion

"Waking Up | Saskia’s Story" powerfully chronicles the devastation of betrayal and the fraught but possible journey forward. It’s a story of facing trauma, reclaiming agency, practicing self-compassion, and gradually letting others in again. It's also about how the healing journey is ongoing, marked by vulnerability, community, and small but meaningful moments of joy.

“He pulled me into that darkness, and I refuse to live there.” — Saskia (42:08)

Transcript

[Andrea Gunning]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Jessica Baum]

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[Andrea Gunning]

You're listening to a podcast, so you're doing something else too. Like maybe scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving places you like without thinking you'll get them. Because that's what house hunting has become. But Redfin isn't built for endless browsing. It's built to help you find and own a home. Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. Which means when you find a place you love, you've got a real shot at getting it. Redfin helps turn saved listings into real addresses. Get [e-mail] own the dream hi everyone. Andrea here. I have some exciting news to share. ABC has turned Betrayal Weekly into an eight episode anthology, which means each episode features one of your favorite Betrayal Weekly stories. You'll get to see the people involved, hear from people who have never spoken before, and actually see where the story took place. We are so proud and excited to share it with you all. It's called Secrets and Lies and you can watch it every Sunday at 10pm Eastern Standard Time, 9pm Central. Please check it out. Throughout the years we've worked on this show, our team has talked to hundreds of people who've been through some kind of betrayal. Some of their stories are about abuse left undiscovered or unchecked for years. Others are about financial crimes or secret identities. But across all of these stories, there are similarities. Like in the way people talk about the aftermath and the moment everything changed.

[Saskia]

Our life blew up on April 11th. April 2022 is when D day happened and everything just blew up.

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All of this blew up.

[Andrea Gunning]

Our life, our kids, lives, our community.

[Saskia]

He completely ruined my family.

[Andrea Gunning]

For so many people, a betrayal is an ending, a death of the life they knew. I often get asked if it's depressing working on stories like this day in, day out. And the truth is, a lot of the time it's the opposite. Because as much as these are stories about the moment of destruction, they're also about what happens after that moment. How people get up the next day, how they rebuild after the smoke clears. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say a bomb dropped on Saskia's life. And yet today, seven years after her discovery, she's still standing.

[Saskia]

I think it would surprise him to see how much stronger I've gotten, even since his attempt to totally destroy me. I was not going to be just a dispensable person, someone that you can use and abuse and then discard. His focus was on my weaknesses, and he didn't realize how strong I am.

[Andrea Gunning]

I'm andrea gunning and this is betrayal. Season five, episode ten waking up. Before we talk about where Saskia is today, there's something I want to share. It's a bit of a left turn, but it has a lot to do with why I do this work and why I felt drawn To Saskia's story. In college, I was raped. At the time, I was going through a really bad depression, and much in the same way that Saskia did. I drank to cope. One night, when I was drunk, a person who I considered a friend assaulted me. It wasn't until the next day when I woke up that I knew something had happened. For years, I blamed myself. Maybe I let him on. Maybe I deserved it. It's a feeling a lot of victims of sexual violence experience. And like a lot of victims, those feelings kept me silent for a long time. I questioned myself and my understanding of what I experienced. But that wasn't the case for Saskia. As soon as she found out what Mike did to her, she saw the truth clearly.

[Saskia]

He said, I guess we're both a little bit crazy. I said, no, no, I have mental health issues. You're a predator and you're a monster.

[Andrea Gunning]

This is something that's always struck me about Saskia's story, and it's actually pretty rare. Immediately, she knew the gravity of what Mike had done. She went to the authorities to protect herself and to keep others safe. And then she took the stand and stood up to him.

[Saskia]

You're a dangerous person who preys on vulnerable and trusting people. You're a sexual predator, Michael Levengood. You do have this inner strength that comes out at times.

[Andrea Gunning]

That's Kerry Hartman, one of Betrayal's producers. Where did that come from?

[Saskia]

I don't know. I really don't know.

[Andrea Gunning]

Wherever it came from, I've always admired that strength in Saskia. And back in those early days after her discovery, her bravery was clear to everyone around her. It looked like reporting the crime, taking the stand, seeing her divorce trial through, no matter how many insults she had to face. But there's more than one way to be brave. This came up with Ashley Enderfirth, the original prosecutor on Saskia's case. At the end of our interview, just before we stopped recording, there was one last thing Ashley wanted to say.

[Jessica Baum]

We talked about how brave Saskia is to have come forward and to have been willing to go through this process. But when you experience something like this, bravery takes different forms. While it is undoubtedly brave to come forward, sometimes bravery is just getting up the next morning and living your life.

[Andrea Gunning]

This was something I needed to hear, and I imagine some listeners out there need to hear it too. Bravery isn't always about pursuing criminal action. I had to understand that after what happened to me, keeping my grades up, graduating, and just getting on with my life was the bravest version of Myself. And today, that form of bravery is what Saskia is practicing too.

[Saskia]

Kitties, Chicky burrito. Pippi, pumpkin.

[Andrea Gunning]

The days of pursuing justice are now behind her. These days, for Saskia, bravery looks like getting out of bed and starting her day, feeding her pets, going to work, taking a walk.

[Saskia]

After the discovery, I wasn't able to do anything. I wasn't able to work. I was constantly on hyper alert. It really felt like this is it and that there's no light at the end of the tunnel.

[Andrea Gunning]

Nowadays, she's not only back to a normal routine, she's creating that routine for herself for the first time in her adult life.

[Saskia]

Seven years ago, I was like a baby, just starting out, just learning to crawl. And learning to crawl was learning what I would choose to do on my own. I had never really been single until a few years ago. And just learning when I'm by myself, what do I choose to do, what do I choose to eat, what do I choose to watch and to then incorporate that into who I am. For me to get my agency back and be able to do what is good for me is where my power lies now.

[Andrea Gunning]

Before everything happened, everyone thought Saskia needed someone like Mike to save her. Here is her sister, Marisa.

[Jessica Baum]

I've always viewed her as my baby sister, as a very strong person, but somebody who's vulnerable, and he gave her a sense of stability.

[Andrea Gunning]

Today, Marisa sees all that Saskia is capable of on her own.

[Jessica Baum]

She's standing alone, she's doing life, she's creating her own stability. Now.

[Andrea Gunning]

There's been so much change in the right direction, but there's a flip side to all this growth.

[Saskia]

I feel like I've started spending most of my time alone.

[Andrea Gunning]

It's not just that Saskia is taking time for herself, as Marisa told us.

[Jessica Baum]

I would say that she socially isolates more so than she ever did.

[Andrea Gunning]

Saskia has her kids, but they're older now, and most of the time they're out of the house or with their dad. She works from home and stays there through the evening with her pets to keep her company. Since finding out about Mike's crimes, her world's gotten a lot smaller.

[Saskia]

I was so devastated and shocked by everything that happened that I had no choice but to start to protect myself a little bit. And that's something that is empowering, right? To know that I can make my own choices and I can stay as safe as I can need to or want to.

[Andrea Gunning]

But by putting up these walls, she's not only protecting herself against bad people, she's isolating herself from friends and family. Here's Marisa again.

[Jessica Baum]

She's been stuck in that fight mode for so long. I want her to be open to the good in people, and I want her to know what that feels like and to know that he didn't take it from her.

[Andrea Gunning]

When my reporting team and I went to Maryland to meet Saskia, we noticed those walls too. We'd spent months talking to her in advance, explaining the production process and what to expect. She was fully on board. In all of her interviews, she was open. But whenever we weren't recording, the walls went back up in a way I'd never encountered before with other stories. For instance, during our reporting trips, we usually take our storytellers out to dinner with our team. Saskia was the first person I've worked with who didn't really want to go. That was a real learning moment for me. The idea that going out to dinner with us could be hard.

[Saskia]

It was. I stopped doing those things for a long time. It's been really hard for me to get back out there. I don't think that I can ever trust anybody. I don't think that I could ever fully be confident that someone wasn't misleading me or manipulating me because I was so sure that he was a good person and that you love me. How can I ever get to the point where I truly don't fear that?

[Andrea Gunning]

On this show, we're asking people who've experienced a traumatic betrayal to trust us with their story. It always takes months of building rapport to get to that point. By the time we got to Maryland, Saskia was ready to share her story, but we questioned if she was ready to really put herself out there with this show. So I asked her about that. I said to you, we don't have to do this. We don't have to go forward with this. You can always circle back when you are ready. How did that occur for you?

[Saskia]

It made me feel a little bit vulnerable, like they're seeing how hard this is for me. Like, what am I doing? This is so difficult.

[Andrea Gunning]

Part of her thought about ending the whole project right there. Instead, she made a choice, the choice to keep going.

[Saskia]

I feel like this was the journey that was put in front of me and I was gonna see it through regardless of how difficult it was.

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[Andrea Gunning]

For years, Saskia's received support from a psychiatrist and other mental health providers. But in choosing to do this podcast, we wanted to ensure she had extra support, so we connected her with Jessica Baum.

[Jessica Baum]

I'm a psychotherapist, a licensed mental health counselor. I'm an author of two books, Anxiously Attached and Safe.

[Andrea Gunning]

If you've been listening to our show for a while, you might recognize Jess from season two where she worked with our subject, Ashley Lytton.

[Jessica Baum]

I studied interpersonal neurobiology and that is a study of how we form as infants and young beings in relationship with others. That's how we form our attachment patterns. And I work a lot with my clients on getting into their body and starting to be with their nervous system and starting to connect all those dots.

[Andrea Gunning]

Following our reporting trip, Jess and Saskia started meeting weekly and I'm going to

[Jessica Baum]

continue working with her to the other side of this whenever she gets to the other side.

[Andrea Gunning]

Often, Jess and Saskia talked about emotions that came up throughout the production process. It took strength to report the crime and get through those early days, but in many ways, that strength was a reflex. She saw no other path than to fight this choice to revisit what happened to her. To trust other people with her story has demanded a different kind of strength. Jess and Saskia agreed to record a few of their sessions. Saskia listened back to these recordings and now she wants other people to hear them too, in the hopes that her breakthroughs might help somebody else.

[Saskia]

In the beginning, when I met with the producers, it felt profound, but it also was so scary and so uncomfortable that I honestly was like a little kid. Like, I hid my face in my shirt because it felt so strange receiving compassion and empathy and sympathy about what Mike did to me.

[Jessica Baum]

And you had to start to recognize how bad it was.

[Saskia]

Yeah. How hard that was. I never felt important enough to really do the deep diving into me and my story and my life. It feels wrong to me because I'm not used to doing that.

[Jessica Baum]

And we have to get in touch with all the pain to do that.

[Saskia]

Yeah. That's probably what makes me feel like I want to run 100%.

[Jessica Baum]

I think that being vulnerable like this and feeling it, part of you wants to do the work, and the part of you is so uncomfortable with showing up for it. And I think that's actually a very normal part of this experience or the re experiencing of it all.

[Saskia]

I totally agree. On Sunday night, we had a really difficult recording session for the podcast. I was talking to Caitlin.

[Andrea Gunning]

Caitlin is one of our producers, and

[Saskia]

she saw that I visibly got tearful and then started crying. And Caitlin's response, of course, was empathy. And like, if this is too much for you, let's stop. And I said, no, I need to feel these feelings. It's hard, but I know that this is necessary.

[Jessica Baum]

It's harder before it gets easier.

[Saskia]

Yep, that's what I'm finding.

[Jessica Baum]

And you know, Saskia, some people don't have the capacity. It takes a lot to slow down and feel.

[Saskia]

Yeah, it's been a really hard few years. I'm proud of myself for taking the time to be by myself and come to some realizations, but it's a scary thing to do at 47 years old. I wish that it would have happened a lot earlier for me so I could have avoided some of these consequences.

[Jessica Baum]

I don't know how many clients I have that are like 40 or 50 or 55 who say the same thing. Like, I wish I could have done this sooner. I remember asking my mentor once when I got out of a really unhealthy relationship. I said, did I need to go through this pretty traumatic relationship to have this healing process occur? Like, was there another path? Sometimes we're just not ready to go there until things get bad enough or we need a wake up call.

[Saskia]

Yeah, right. We have no choice but to slow down or stop and deal with things.

[Andrea Gunning]

In slowing down, Saskia is not only facing these emotions coming up through the podcast or sitting with her trauma from Mike, she's going back further to her Childhood to understand why she gravitated towards someone like Mike and to try to break that pattern going forward. Remember, Saskia grew up as the youngest of four. Her father struggled with mental illness, and her mom was busy keeping the family afloat. It had a real impact on her. She always had a lot of friends. But on the inside, I still felt

[Saskia]

so alone and like a freak in school. I remember crying in the bathrooms and not really knowing why. Looking back, I was really struggling with depression and anxiety.

[Andrea Gunning]

That's a big part of why she turned to alcohol.

[Saskia]

I remember the first time getting drunk and how good it felt. It helped me cope with a lot of things that I hadn't dealt with yet were under the surface stuff from my childhood.

[Jessica Baum]

Doesn't it make sense? That's part of the human desire, is we go towards what feels good, what releases chemicals, what feels a sense of belonging. And you weren't getting any of that at home.

[Saskia]

Right. Maybe that's what I did in my relationships too. I didn't get what I needed emotionally. And so that's always what I was searching for, that feeling.

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[Saskia]

Mike was really the first person that I thought actually loved me and. And was safe. It would be awful even if it was a stranger who did this to me or someone I had just met, but the fact that this was my partner for seven years.

[Jessica Baum]

Supposed to be the safest person to you.

[Saskia]

I mean, he was my best friend. With him, I felt really cared for, and I've never felt that before in my life.

[Jessica Baum]

When you grow up with childhood neglect and trauma, that very young part of you is looking to be taken care of.

[Saskia]

Yeah.

[Jessica Baum]

And attracted to someone who appears safe, who appears like they're gonna take care of that little girl. And it ends up becoming a nightmare.

[Saskia]

Right.

[Jessica Baum]

Mike presented as someone different. He presented as someone safer. He presented as not your normal type. And it's almost like a fish on the hook. Your inner child is projecting the perfect parent onto this person. This is gonna be the solution because now this person is safe. They're meeting all your needs. And the truth is, your attachment needs were still underneath the surface 100%.

[Saskia]

I mean, you've helped me realize that I was seeking validation and feeling. Yeah. Taken care of.

[Jessica Baum]

And he was in a position of power because he met those needs so well for you.

[Saskia]

Looking at how I got to this place has been really important because I don't need saving.

[Andrea Gunning]

For the first time in her life, Saskia's not dating. Through this work in therapy, she's breaking patterns, sitting with her pain putting herself first.

[Saskia]

I feel like I'm giving myself as much space and time as I need to heal. I don't have time or energy to prioritize somebody else over me right now, and that's when the healing has really started. I feel like I need to be able to trust myself before I'll be able to trust anybody else. What I do know now is that I can do it on my own. If somebody makes me uncomfortable or somebody isn't concerned with my feelings, I can walk away and I can still be okay. I just wish it wasn't such a hard lesson for me to learn, but I don't think there was an easier one that would have woke you up. Oak me up.

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[Andrea Gunning]

That's innerbalance.com the following ad is sponsored

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[Martha Stewart]

how to make hosting look effortless? Here's a secret. When prepping for cooking and baking, get ahead of the mess with new Reynolds Kitchens countertop prep paper. Just lightly wet the counter so the paper grips. Lay it down and drips and spills stay on the paper, not on your counter. Cleanup is as simple as lifting it away to reveal clean counters. Effortless it is thanks to Reynolds Kitchen's countertop prep paper. Wet it, set it, prep it done. Available in the Reynolds Wrap aisle at Walmart, Target, Amazon and Costco.

[Andrea Gunning]

As I was listening to Saskia and Jess last recorded session, I heard something that made me smile. Saskia was looking back on the early days of working with us and how much has changed since then.

[Saskia]

I'm definitely a people pleaser. If other people like me, that makes me happy. And with this podcast, there was a lot of that. Like I didn't know what support to expect, so it was all very kind of scary.

[Andrea Gunning]

But slowly, through lots of interviews, check ins and visits, our team earned Saskia's trust. Today, our conversations are as much about what happened to her as they are about what shows we're watching. But our pets are doing good days and bad days at work. Saskia's walls are down and to me that's an honor. We're really the first new people Saskia's let into her world in a long time.

[Saskia]

The support that I felt from working on this podcast, it's been something that I've never felt before. The empathy and the understanding. It's crazy how it happened and I don't really believe in Fate, but it was just what I needed to deal with it and heal and, yeah, do

[Jessica Baum]

all the hard work. I know it's a re experiencing, but I think it's the re experiencing with the support that makes the difference.

[Saskia]

I totally agree.

[Andrea Gunning]

Once the project ends, we're not going anywhere. But Jess wants Saskia to take this experience of learning to trust us and translate it into trusting others again in her everyday life.

[Jessica Baum]

The way to heal this, Saskia, is now through the work with me, but also other people who you can be vulnerable with, who see you, who hold this sadness with you. Instead of finding a new man and a new solution, we need to slow down and start to learn what's going on inside and be with our core wounds. And a way to break this pattern is to lean on other people who don't medicate the trauma, but can be with you in your pain.

[Saskia]

I do have people that I know care about me.

[Jessica Baum]

Who's one of those people?

[Saskia]

My sister, I think. I used to feel like she wanted to be there, but it was just one more thing in her life that she felt like she wanted to fix. Now she kind of asks, like, do you just want me to be here to listen?

[Jessica Baum]

That is literally the only thing we need, is we just need people to be with us.

[Andrea Gunning]

In addition to Marisa, Saskia has her friends, the ones you've heard from throughout the season. But it hasn't always felt easy to open up to them.

[Saskia]

I've always put a lot of pressure on myself not to show how much pain I'm in.

[Jessica Baum]

I think there's a piece to trauma survivors where we are not used to people who accept us unconditionally and like us when we're messy and can be with all our parts. So we're like, I have to perform.

[Saskia]

I would never reach out to a friend to vent. I wouldn't answer my phone unless I was in a good mood. I would look internally and be like, how can I fix myself so I can be okay for other people?

[Andrea Gunning]

Before Mike, Saskia was the silly, bubbly one in her friend group, no matter what she was going through on the inside. But after her discovery, there was no

[Saskia]

putting on a happy face. Everything went dark for me. Being around people that just had normal lives or happy relationships or were talking about, I don't know what they bought at the store. It was easier for me to stay away.

[Andrea Gunning]

But connection is a two way street sometimes. Her friends haven't known the best way to show up for Saskia, if they should or could talk about what Happened when we were in Maryland. I brought that up with Saskia's friend Heather. Do you guys, as a friend group, talk about hard things?

[Saskia]

No. Oh, let me rephrase that. Not. But the person in the room.

[Andrea Gunning]

Why do you think that is?

[Saskia]

I think a lot of us are people pleasers and so we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. And it's not meant to be like malice or like gossipy or something. It's genuine concern, but not having the confidence to bring it up directly with the person.

[Andrea Gunning]

There's also the guilt her friends feel about what happened to Saskia. Looking back now, knowing what Mike was doing, Heather feels a lot of anger at herself. Remember, she was the friend that told Saskia to go through with the wedding. After the first time, Saskia saw something on Mike's laptop.

[Saskia]

I wish I would have given her that out and been the friend that can. Been like, you don't have to do this if you don't want to. Like, if you don't feel like something's right, you don't have to go through with this.

[Andrea Gunning]

It's uncomfortable to look back and wonder if you could have done anything differently. That guilt can make it hard to talk about what happened. But there's one more reason I think these friends don't talk about what Saskia went through. It's the reason why for years there weren't stories like this one out there. And it's a big part of why it took so long for men like Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby to be held accountable. We've all been taught not to talk about rape. It's too violent, too gross. Something meant to be kept private, especially when it's perpetrated by a good guy, a powerful guy or a partner. And in Saskia's case, there's digital evidence. The photos and videos of her rape, that will live on on the Internet forever. It's a horrific, ongoing part of Mike's crimes, one that is hard for anyone to talk about, even Saskia.

[Saskia]

I've been not dealing with that, not thinking about it.

[Jessica Baum]

You feel like just trying to block it out of your psyche is how you've been protecting yourself from it.

[Saskia]

Yeah, for sure. I don't think I knew how hard it was going to be, how much I had suppressed in this to just get by.

[Andrea Gunning]

Marisa can see the effect these images have on Saskia.

[Jessica Baum]

She's embarrassed about the idea of her being on display and that makes her want to shrink. But I think the side of her that wants to Stand up for herself and will feel no shame is stronger.

[Andrea Gunning]

Saskia knows the shame isn't hers to carry. She wants to talk about what happened to her. That's why she's doing this podcast, dragging all this out into the light, despite how upsetting it can feel. She's being brave. For their part, her friends are starting to do the same. They're showing up for Saskia and talking more about what happened on the podcast, but even more so with each other.

[Saskia]

I can't tell you how many good tears I've cried, realizing how much people care about me. It's nice, like I'm, you know, I'm growing. And also, I think my relationships have kind of transformed also.

[Andrea Gunning]

She's finding new stability with the people who've been there all along. Thank you.

[Saskia]

I'm so glad you guys are here.

[Andrea Gunning]

On our last night in Maryland, Saskia invited all her people over for a party. In the days before, she almost canceled the whole thing, it had just been a full week of interviews.

[Saskia]

I was so anxious about doing a good job in telling my story that my nervous system was just in overdrive, and it felt like too much to go out or entertain.

[Andrea Gunning]

We assured her she didn't need to throw a party on our account. Her people would understand, too. But she wanted to do it.

[Saskia]

I want to actually enjoy life, and I don't feel like I always have to show up with a happy face. I can just be me.

[Andrea Gunning]

So she gathered everyone on her back porch. Her siblings, her friends. I want to hear what she's saying first. It was the tail end of summer. The sun was setting and the cicadas were in full swing. Everyone sat in a circle of Adirondack chairs, eating cake and trading funny stories from growing up.

[Saskia]

We heard you could get fake IDs in Georgetown. So Bridget drove all of us down to Georgetown.

[Andrea Gunning]

I could tell it was a lot for Saskia. She looked tired, and she couldn't seem to sit still in her chair. But in the midst of all of this, I heard something.

[Saskia]

So then we had to drive back down again, and they hand us these.

[Andrea Gunning]

Saskia's laugh. It was mentioned a lot in interviews with her friends and family, but this was the first time we really heard it for ourselves. And throughout the night, we kept hearing it. There's no clean end to the journey Saskia's on. She'll never reach a point when she's fully healed. No one does after betrayal. I think healing is a series of smaller wins. Maybe there will come a day when she'll wake up without her trauma on her mind. Maybe she'll call her sister or a friend the next time she feels alone. But for now, just having moments like this again, when she can just be with the people that love her and laugh. That's enough.

[Saskia]

Seven years ago I really thought that my life was over. I felt humiliated, and I still think that that's true today. I feel exposed, but that to me is not as important as exposing somebody who thought that they could just operate in the dark for a while. He pulled me into that darkness, and I refuse to live there.

[Andrea Gunning]

For resources on sexual violence, visit rainn.org betrayal that's R A I N N.org betrayal. You can also get free confidential 24. 7 support support through RAINN's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656, hope you are not alone. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team or want to tell us your story, email [e-mail] that is betrayalpodmail.com or follow us on Instagram Instagram betrayalpod to access additional content and to connect with the betrayal community. Join our [e-mail] we're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcast, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Kaitlyn Golden. Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Olivia Hewitt and Leah Jablo. Production management by Kristin Melchiori. Additional support by Curry Richman. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krynczyk. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins with additional editing and mixing by Matt d'. Alvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, her friends and family and special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie Lieberman. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines Music Library, provided by My Music and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Jessica Baum]

OK Storytime this summer. Find your next obsession on Prime Video and listen. We're not saying you need another obsession, but there could be a lot worse ones. Steamy romance, addictive love stories and the book to save screen favorites you've already read twice, so why not watch them a third time off campus? L the Love Hypothesis and more Slow Burns Second Chances Chemistry you can feel through the screen and it makes you wish you were actually in that movie. We've got binge worthy series can't miss movies perfect for when you're ignoring your own problems or procrastinating as one does. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime.

[Martha Stewart]

This is Martha Stewart from the Martha Stewart Podcast. Ever wonder how to make hosting look effortless? Here's a secret Getting ahead of the mess with New Reynolds Kitchens Countertop Prep Paper Just lightly wet the counter beforehand so the paper grips and stays in place. Then lay down the Reynolds Kitchen's countertop prep paper so drips and spills stay on the paper, not all over your kitchen counter. You can roll out dough, prep a party spread, or cook alongside family. When you're done, cleanup is as simple as lifting the paper and revealing that clean counter underneath. Effortless. You can use it for cooking and baking prep and even crafting, especially when you need extra working space. Because when the mess is already handled, you can focus on what matters the food, the people, and the moment. It may look effortless, but now you know it's Reynolds Kitchens Countertop prep paper. Take a tip from me. Wet it, set it, prep it. Done. Make it easy. Make it with Reynolds Kitchens Countertop prep paper. Available now in the Reynolds Wrap aisle in Walmart, Target, Amazon and Costco.

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[Andrea Gunning]

Learn [e-mail] this is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.