Love Is No Defense | EP 8 | Saskia's Story

Summary

Betrayal Weekly – "Love Is No Defense" | EP 8 | Saskia's Story

Host: Andrea Gunning
Date: March 19, 2026
Podcast: Betrayal Weekly (iHeartPodcasts | Glass Podcasts)

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Episode Overview

This gripping episode explores the intersection of legal loopholes and the lived realities of marital rape, focusing on Saskia's story—a survivor whose fight for justice was hampered by Maryland's outdated marital exemption laws. The episode delves into the shortcomings of the justice system, the historical roots of these laws, and the years-long advocacy journey to reform them. It's a compelling blend of court testimony, survivor experiences, and legislative drama, highlighting both the endurance of those harmed and the systemic barriers they face.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Divorce Trial and Legal Contradictions

• The Courtroom Showdown (04:10–09:42)

  • Audio from Saskia's divorce trial where her ex-husband, Mike, is confronted about his prior guilty plea to rape while maintaining in civil court that "all acts were consensual".
  • Quotes directly from Mike’s contradictory testimony:
    • "Those were false statements, correct?" — "Those are not false statements. I maintain they were consensual. Absolutely." (04:26)
    • Saskia’s attorney points out court records: "But you would be found guilty of rape. How is that?" (05:35)
    • Mike tries to rationalize: "I think you would kind of bifurcate... there's one thing about the consensual use of pornography..." (05:50)

• Outdated Maryland Law (07:54–09:42)

  • It was legal in Maryland at the time for a spouse to sexually assault their incapacitated partner unless “force” was proven.
  • Mike’s minimized acceptance of responsibility: "I pled guilty to something that I did do [...] I don't believe in my heart that I did that, that I raped her." (09:03, 09:42)

2. The Limits of Justice and the Marital Exemption

• Prosecutorial Constraints (10:39–12:01)

  • Debbie Feinstein, the chief of Maryland’s Special Victims Division, details the lack of justice:
    • "It's 100% a case that sticks with me because we weren't able to really accomplish full justice." (10:39)
  • The law forced prosecutors to press only a handful of charges, despite dozens of instances of non-consensual acts, resulting in Mike’s light sentence.

• Historical Roots (12:01–13:51)

  • Lori Ruth, public policy director at the Maryland Network Against Domestic Violence, explains:
    • "It comes from the common law of England in the 1600s, when women were chattel, they were possessions..." (12:01)
  • Survivor storytelling: Lori recounts a call in 2008 from a woman drugged and assaulted by her husband, only to discover the law provided no protection.

3. National Context and Advocacy

• Prevalence of Marital Exemptions (14:15–15:18)

  • Laws like Maryland’s existed in both red and blue states—Ohio, Michigan, California, Rhode Island, etc.
  • Advocacy perspective from Stefan Turkheimer (RAINN):
    • "We want the law to respect survivors' experience. [...] And that's not this." (14:47)

• Real-World Implications (15:26–16:00)

  • Stefan was shocked to find exemptions still actively used: "Straight up in Ohio, people [...] were calling the police, and the police were saying, that's not a crime. That's what was happening." (15:38)
  • Survivors feel the law blames them: "The law doesn't recognize my experience. They say that I'm to blame, that I'm not worthy of protection." (16:00)

4. Legislative Battles and Roadblocks

• Barriers to Change (16:34–17:17)

  • Legislators slow to act; widespread misconceptions about sexual assault within marriage.
  • Prosecutor Feinstein: "He got a substantially reduced sentence of incarceration. Really, because [...] the heart of the case was taken out from under us because of the spousal defense to rape." (16:57)

• Attempts to Pass Reform (20:47–26:16)

  • Advocate efforts in the Maryland legislature are repeatedly blocked.
  • Key legislative moment:
    • "So on the scheme of things, you know, we have rape and then we have fourth degree sex offense, which is an unconsent to touching [...]" (23:45, Feinstein)
    • Lawmakers question: "Under this bill, the husband would have to get consent, that I couldn't roll over at night and just put my hand on a bikini?" (24:02)
  • Ruth on skepticism and sexism: "What kind of marriage do you have that you actually think that's going to happen?" (24:30)
  • Fear of false accusations used as argument for keeping the exemption.

5. The Power and Pain of Survivor Testimony

• Difficulty Testifying (28:09–29:40)
  • Experts note survivors rarely testify because reliving trauma in public is grueling.
  • Yet, as Stefan from RAINN observes: "People don't really get motivated by stats, not really. They only get motivated by people and stories..." (29:19)

6. Turning the Tide: The Survivor Who Changed Maryland’s Law

• A Breakthrough in 2023 (33:07–37:21)

  • Repeated failure to pass the bill until new survivor testimony moves lawmakers:
    • "My name is [redacted for privacy]. I'm a sexual assault survivor and a victim of this law. Less than a year ago, I was raped by my husband. And under the existing law, what he did was legal rape..." (34:40)
    • Poignant plea: "This law treats spouses as objects, not people. [...] You have an opportunity to correct this remnant of our past, and I'm charging each of you to do that." (35:19)
  • Legislative response: Stefan Turkheimer says, "That's the most impactful testimony I've ever heard on this bill." (36:45)

• Victory and Lingering Injustice (37:21–39:03)

  • In May 2023, after four years, Maryland ends its marital rape exemption.
  • Lori Ruth notes the win is bittersweet: "It makes me feel relieved that I went through all of that, not in vain, that there's something good that came out of it. But look how much damage has already been done." (38:50)

7. Where We Go from Here

• National Progress and Remaining Gaps (37:56–38:15)

  • Five states still protect marital exemptions: Nevada, South Carolina, Virginia, Michigan, Iowa.
  • Force-centric definitions of rape remain widespread.

• Impact on Survivors (39:03–39:33)

  • Even with legislative change, the wounds to survivors like Saskia persist.
  • Legal reform cannot erase the harm or the enduring self-justification by perpetrators:
    • Mike: "I don't believe in my heart that I did that. I wrote to her." (39:22)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Mike’s Denial Despite Guilty Plea
  • "I maintain they were consensual. Absolutely." (04:26, Mike)
  • "I don't believe in my heart that I did that, that I raped her." (09:03, Mike)
• Debbie Feinstein on Insufficient Justice
  • "It's 100% a case that sticks with me because we weren't able to really accomplish full justice." (10:39)
  • "He got a substantially reduced sentence of incarceration. Really, because [...] the heart of the case was taken out from under us because of the spousal defense to rape." (16:57)
• Historical Context
  • "Once you married, the husband could do whatever he wanted... because she was property." (12:01, Lori Ruth)
• On Advocacy and Change
  • "The key is to take that outrage that you have and bring it to people that can change the law and let them be outraged with you." (16:20, Stefan Turkheimer)
  • "Sometimes it takes a lot of people and a lot of effort to do something that should be easy." (16:38, Stefan Turkheimer)
  • "People don't really get motivated by stats, not really. They only get motivated by people and stories..." (29:19, Stefan Turkheimer)
• Survivor's Testimony That Changed Everything
  • "Less than a year ago, I was raped by my husband. And under the existing law, what he did was legal rape. [...] This law treats spouses as objects, not people." (34:40–35:19, marital rape survivor)
  • "That's the most impactful testimony I've ever heard on this bill." (36:45, Stefan Turkheimer)
• On the Bittersweet Nature of Victory
  • "It makes me feel relieved that I went through all of that, not in vain, that there's something good that came out of it. But look how much damage has already been done." (38:50, Lori Ruth)

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Timestamps for Crucial Segments

• Saskia’s Divorce Trial & Legal Contradictions: 04:10–09:42
• Prosecutorial Limits and the Marital Exemption: 10:39–12:01
• Historical Roots of Marital Exemption: 12:01–13:51
• National Legal Gaps & Advocates’ Frustrations: 14:15–16:34
• Maryland Legislative Hurdles and Defeats: 20:47–29:40
• Survivor Testimony and Passage of Reform: 33:07–37:56
• Reflections on Progress and Continuing Gaps: 37:56–39:33

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Final Thoughts

"Love Is No Defense" exposes the extent to which outdated laws fail survivors of marital rape, but also records a rare, hard-fought legislative victory for justice and recognition. Through Saskia’s story, the episode highlights both the irreparable damage caused by legal indifference and the crucial impact of survivor advocacy—even as many states lag behind. It’s a sobering, motivating listen that underscores the work still ahead.

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Resources mentioned in the episode:

• Learn about laws in your state: rainn.org/betrayal
• RAINN National Sexual Assault Hotline: Text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE

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Summary prepared for listeners who want a deep understanding of the episode’s arguments, emotional context, and legislative journey, while honoring the bravery of survivors and the persistence of advocates.

Transcript

[Andrea Gunning]

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[Andrea Gunning]

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[Saskia's Attorney]

What's on the screen here is Defendants Exhibit three.

[Andrea Gunning]

This is audio from the middle of the divorce trial. During Mike's cross examination, Saskia's attorney began by quoting Mike's initial divorce filing.

[Saskia's Attorney]

Paragraph 8 says all of these acts were consensual and in paragraph 10 that all of these allegations are false and defamatory pose a serious threat to your good reputation. Do you recall making those statements? Yes. The statements about this being a betrayal and that all acts were consensual. Those were false statements, Correct? Those are not false statements. Well, we know that not all the acts were consensual, right? I maintain they were consensual. Absolutely.

[Andrea Gunning]

Remember, by this point, Mike had already pled guilty to rape in criminal court. But here he was in the divorce trial stating that all of his sexual encounters with Saskia were consensual. Saskia's attorney couldn't understand it. He pulled up the transcript from Mike's guilty plea.

[Saskia's Attorney]

In fact, you were asked in this Guilty plea by Judge Cummings. If you are pleading guilty because you are in fact guilty, do you remember being asked that question? Yes. And what was your response to that question? I pled. I did. I pled guilty. Because you were guilty. Right. That's. Yes. Yes. So I'm. So I'm struggling with your previous testimony that all acts would be consensual, but you would be found guilty of rape. How is that? Well, I think, first of all, I think you would kind of bifurcate some of some or have separate parallel discussions with some of these different topics. There's one thing about the consensual use of pornography, the consensual acts of taking photographs and videos.

[Lori Ruth]

Mr. Lovingood.

[Andrea Gunning]

The judge interrupted him.

[Saskia's Attorney]

So I would say I'm going to cut you off. Okay. So you maintain that all acts, all

[Lori Ruth]

acts between you and Ms. Inwood were consensual.

[Andrea Gunning]

Okay.

[Lori Ruth]

Your plea agreement was that you were pleading guilty because you are in fact guilty of rape. They can't both be true.

[Andrea Gunning]

So the question is, which one is true? I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is betrayal. Season 5 Episode 8 Love is no Defense the judge allowed Mike a 15 minute break to talk with his attorney. When the court reconvened, Saskia's attorney asked

[Saskia's Attorney]

him again, how can it be true that you pled guilty to rape of the defendant, but that all of the acts between you and the defendant were consented? So I think, I think this is important point. So to try to explain better. So based on discussions with my attorneys and my understanding, they're explaining to me the statute of rape and the definition of rape and specifically around the use of force.

[Andrea Gunning]

You'll remember that at the time Maryland had a law on the books, it was legal to rape your wife if she was unconscious unless force was used.

[Saskia's Attorney]

My attorney explained to me there's no specific amount of force that is required. Force becomes a very subjective thing.

[Andrea Gunning]

State prosecutors could only charge Mike with rape in the moments where they could argue he used force. But the examples of force that they identified weren't slam dunks.

[Saskia's Attorney]

The state specifically says the force in these videos, as your honor will see, is force, such as moving a leg while unconscious.

[Andrea Gunning]

By the time of his divorce trial, Mike had clearly learned a lot about the marital exemption to rape, and he was using it to distance himself from his own guilty plea. Mike told the divorce judge that the whole criminal case against him was. Was based on a technicality. Under the law, the only thing he did wrong was move his wife's leg.

[Saskia's Attorney]

So I absolutely pled guilty to that act of moving her leg while she was unconscious, semi conscious. I pled guilty to something that I did do and that I recognize is the plea of second degree rape. And I did that. And I admit to that. I think from out of the criminal setting, right in kind of a common, if you will, place environment. I don't believe in my heart that I did that, that I raped her.

[Andrea Gunning]

Mike didn't believe in his heart that he raped Saskia. We're going to come back to him and let you in on what he's up to today in the next episode. But before we get to that, we need to talk about why Mike argued this, that raping his sleeping wife wasn't rape. And the reality is the law said it wasn't. The state was able to prosecute Mike, but they knew it was on a technicality. That's why prosecutors only charged him with three counts of rape and one count of attempted rape, despite there being so many videos. And it's a big part of why they agreed to give Mike an 18 month plea deal. The law said what it said it wasn't raping your wife if she was unconscious. So Mike got off easy.

[Debbie Feinstein]

It's 100% a case that sticks with me because we weren't able to really accomplish full justice.

[Andrea Gunning]

That's Debbie Feinstein. She's chief of the special victims division at the Montgomery county state's attorney's office in Maryland. She supervised the prosecutors on Mike's case back in 2018 when they were just beginning to build the case.

[Debbie Feinstein]

Debbie knew there were many, many, many more counts of rape that we could have charged him with.

[Andrea Gunning]

She watched those videos. She saw what Mike did to Saskia.

[Debbie Feinstein]

She could not consent. She could not be amenable to what was happening given the fact that she was physically helpless and mentally incapacitated. It's just those those two things cannot be true at the same time.

[Andrea Gunning]

And yet, in the eyes of the law, both things were true. Saskia was consenting, even though she was completely knocked out. According to the law in Maryland, she consented the day she signed her marriage certificate. The marital exemption to rape could be seen as a legal loophole, but that's not quite accurate because laws like this have been around for hundreds of years. They were built into the legal institution of marriage.

[Lori Ruth]

It comes from the common law of England in the 1600s, when women were chattel, they were possessions. So once you married, the husband could do whatever he wanted to the wife because she was like a table, your horse, your teapot. That's chattel. That's property.

[Andrea Gunning]

That's Lori Ruth.

[Lori Ruth]

I am the public policy director at the Maryland Network against Domestic Violence.

[Andrea Gunning]

It's a coalition that represents all the domestic violence service providers in the state. Lori has dedicated her career to helping survivors of intimate partner violence. For decades, she provided direct legal support, and today she lobbies for bills in the state legislature. Lori first heard about Marilyn's marital exemption around 2008. At the time, she was the legal director at a women's rights nonprofit. A call came through to her office. The woman on the other line was

[Lori Ruth]

in the car she was driving on the Baltimore beltway. And she said, my husband is drugging me and having sex with me and filming it.

[Andrea Gunning]

This woman, like Saskia, was incapacitated when her husband assaulted her.

[Lori Ruth]

And I stood up from my desk, I said, you have to pull over. Like, you can't be driving down the street telling me that story. And I said, that is not allowed. That is illegal. It's a crime. He can't do that.

[Andrea Gunning]

But then Lori looked into it.

[Lori Ruth]

Come to find out they're married. Come to find out. Here we are in 2019-2020-2021-2022, 2023. He probably was allowed to do that.

[Andrea Gunning]

According to the law, she hadn't been raped at all. Over the years, Lori never stopped thinking about that woman.

[Lori Ruth]

You hear stories like that, and you think, somebody needs to be focused on this for the betterment of our society and the citizens and the women and daughters and girls in the state of Maryland.

[Andrea Gunning]

But here's the thing. This law wasn't just affecting people in Maryland in 2018 when Mike committed these crimes. Marital exemption laws existed all over the country. In red states like Ohio, Michigan, Nevada, Mississippi, Oklahoma, and also in blue states like California, Rhode island, and Minnesota. And all across the country, there have been people working to end these legal exemptions. People like Stefan Turkheimer.

[Stefan Turkheimer]

We want the law to respect individuals. We want the law to respect survivors experience. We want the law to create the rules for how we want society to behave. And that's not this.

[Andrea Gunning]

Stefan leads the public policy team at rainn, the Rape, Abuse and incest national network. It's the nation's largest antisexual violence organization. Stefan's job is to look at laws around the country and see which laws need to be changed to protect survivors.

[Stefan Turkheimer]

I'm a lawyer, right? But sometimes when you read a law, you're like, this can't be correct. Let me. Let me go check. Let me see if this is actually being used.

[Andrea Gunning]

When he learned about marital exemption laws. That was his first reaction. Maybe these laws were relics of an older time, never actually enforced, but it

[Stefan Turkheimer]

turned out that that was not what was happening. Straight up in Ohio, people that were being sexually assaulted by their husbands through drugs or other means were calling the police, and the police were saying, that's not a crime. That's what was happening.

[Andrea Gunning]

Stevins met women like Saskia all across the country, Women who could never get full justice for the crimes committed against them.

[Stefan Turkheimer]

The thing about a law like this, the black letter rule, is that it's not just like what cases can't go forward. It's that every single survivor can see this and be like, the law doesn't recognize my experience. They say that I'm to blame, that I'm not worthy of protection.

[Andrea Gunning]

The more cases like Saskia's he heard about, the more angry he became.

[Stefan Turkheimer]

The key is to take that outrage that you have and bring it to people that can change the law and let them be outraged with you. These are people whose minds can be changed. These are people that want to change laws. That's why they got the job.

[Andrea Gunning]

And yet convincing these legislators is no simple task.

[Stefan Turkheimer]

Sometimes it takes a lot of people and a lot of effort to do something that should be easy.

[Andrea Gunning]

In Saskia's case, the prosecutors told us they felt like their hands were tied. Debbie Feinstein wanted to file more charges against Mike, but because of the marital exemption to rape, she couldn't.

[Debbie Feinstein]

This case spoke volumes because it was exactly why this law didn't make sense. In this case, he got a substantially reduced sentence of incarceration. Really, because the meat and potatoes, the heart of the case was taken out from under us because of the spousal defense to rape.

[Andrea Gunning]

For Debbie, having to charge Mike on a technicality was a sign of a larger problem. Even though Mike took the plea, she couldn't let this case go.

[Debbie Feinstein]

The ones where we can't get to the full right outcome, they live within us, but they also drive advocacy, which is what happened in this case.

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[Andrea Gunning]

In the state of Maryland, people were working for years to overturn the marital rape exemption. But these kinds of laws, laws that have existed for hundreds of years, are difficult to overcome. To rally people to make a change, it often takes a case of massive injustice Saska's case was exactly that. It was a case with overwhelming evidence. Dozens of videos which Mike streamed to thousands of people, but he was only sentenced to 18 months. It's the kind of story that could get lawmakers attention. Here's prosecutor Debbie feinstein.

[Debbie Feinstein]

Again, it is singularly the most impactful, effective way to approach advocacy in the legislature is to have a case where an individual, a human being, was impacted. And this case spoke volumes.

[Andrea Gunning]

So in 2020, just after Mike went to jail, Debbie went to Annapolis. She worked with state lawmakers, legal advocates like Lori, and representatives from the Maryland coalition against sexual assault to present a bill in the Maryland legislature, A bill that could overturn the marital exemption once and for all. We got a recording of that legislative session. A representative from sausages county introduced the bill.

[Debbie Feinstein]

I'm delegate Charlotte crutchfield from montgomery county, and I am honored to be able to testify today on House Bill 590, also known as love is no defense to sexual crimes.

[Andrea Gunning]

Debbie testified at length, and even though saskia wasn't there in person, her case

[Debbie Feinstein]

was the highlighted case that we brought to Annapolis.

[Andrea Gunning]

Here's Debbie testifying before lawmakers in Montgomery county.

[Debbie Feinstein]

We had a case within the last couple of years, and in that case, a spouse raped his wife repeatedly, actually on camera, while she was mentally incapacitated. And in that case, marriage was a complete defense to his rape of his wife. It's incredibly disturbing that we could not prosecute the individual for all of those counts of rape that he perpetrated on his wife. He ultimately ended up pleading guilty with a much reduced sentence that really barely scratched the surface of the horrific offenses that I will tell you because I watched those videos, the horrible nature of them that we were unable to prosecute.

[Andrea Gunning]

But even with the example of Saskia's story, the bill got a lot of pushback. Debbie and her colleagues were trying to eliminate marriage as a defense to all sex crimes, first, second, third, and fourth degree.

[Debbie Feinstein]

So on the scheme of things, you know, we have rape and then we have fourth degree sex offense, which is an unconsent to touching, which could be a graze on the breast, a graze on the buttocks or the genital area.

[Andrea Gunning]

Some legislators were concerned about what the bill would mean for those lower tier offenses.

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What you're saying is under this bill, the husband would have to get consent, that I couldn't roll over at night and just put my hand on a bikini. I would have to say, excuse me, he's a little bit cold. He's just trying to spice it up a little bit. He rolls over. Now she can say, I'm going to prosecute you for a fourth degree sex offense.

[Debbie Feinstein]

That was so disturbing to hear that come out of legislators mouths.

[Andrea Gunning]

Lori Ruth, the public policy director you heard earlier, felt the same.

[Lori Ruth]

You stare at them and you think, what kind of marriage do you have that you actually think that's going to happen?

[Andrea Gunning]

But lawmakers, like all of us, buy into myths about rape accusers. Some think that women are likely to bring false allegations and that they'll use those allegations to their advantage.

[Lori Ruth]

The most common response we see is how can we be sure that she's telling the truth? How can we know that she's not lying? Often followed by to get a leg up in a custody suit. That is a real barrier to getting bills passed.

[Andrea Gunning]

Representatives worried that this change would overwhelm the courts.

[Lori Ruth]

The office of the public defender says we're going to be swarmed with defendants

[Marital Rape Survivor]

if this law passes.

[Andrea Gunning]

Another advocate, Dorothy Lennig, spoke directly to those concerns. I actually find it kind of shocking that the public defender is going to argue that they would be swamped with cases. I find it shocking, kind of sad, if they're saying that at this point, the only reason we're not protecting women who are accusing their husbands of sexually assaulting them is because of this law. But ultimately these concerns were enough to kill the bill. To me, the fact that a bill like this could fail in 2020 doesn't make sense. The government wants people to get married, and yet with this law, signing a marriage certificate means limiting your rights.

[Debbie Feinstein]

As Debbie said to us, we're basically penalizing someone for being married.

[Andrea Gunning]

It defies logic. I asked Lori Ruth about this.

[Lori Ruth]

I don't know that it has to do with logic. There is a deep, deeply seated misogyny at play. Logic? I don't think so.

[Andrea Gunning]

It's also not a partisan issue.

[Lori Ruth]

I think the rest of the country views us as being, quote, unquote, very liberal. But I think if you spend any time in Annapolis, you learn that it's not as simple as that. We have actually had legislators say this like you women get one bill this year. Let's say we've got five that are about child support, court, domestic violence, something else they'll say, you get one.

[Andrea Gunning]

Stephan from Rainn has seen these attitudes in other states too.

[Stefan Turkheimer]

When you're presenting to an individual legislator on a bill, there are a few signs you can see about whether or not they're listening to and buying into what you're arguing. One of the main ones is Whether or not they reference their grand daughter or their grandson. If they talk about their granddaughter, they're thinking about the survivor. If they reference their grandson, they're thinking about the offender. You hear that these people made a mistake or whatever else. Something shouldn't ruin their life. All this kind of other stuff, all things that are not backed up in stats or stories, but you still have to deal with them because these are people that can stop your bill.

[Andrea Gunning]

And they do stop bills all the time, often before the bills can even get a full debate. The bills that do make it to the floor are put through the wringer. This is especially true when it's only people like Stephan, Laurie or Debbie testifying, when there are no survivors speaking on the bill's behalf. Here's Laurie again.

[Lori Ruth]

Sometimes the pushback to us is, well, I know you professionals are talking, but where are the people that this really happens to? Why didn't you bring anybody with you? Isn't there somebody who could speak about this? And you want to say, do you not understand it's not that easy to stand up and talk about the most awful things that have happened in your life to a big room full of people.

[Andrea Gunning]

Asking survivors to testify is no small thing. When the bill in Maryland was first introduced, Saskia was in the middle of her divorce proceedings with Mike.

[Lori Ruth]

I was a shell of a person at that point. I couldn't have gone through the steps of describing what had happened.

[Andrea Gunning]

No other survivors like Saskia came forward either. And yet all of the experts we talked to for this episode agreed. So much of the time it's survivor testimony that gets these bills over the line. Here's Stefan from Rainn again.

[Stefan Turkheimer]

People don't really get motivated by stats, not really. They only get motivated by people and stories and how they make them feel. The story can make the person hearing it feel that they're a part of it. And when that happens and then you get to the end of the story, the person receiving that story is left with something they can do.

[Andrea Gunning]

In Maryland, when the bill failed, advocates were disappointed, but they weren't ready to give up just yet. And survivors wouldn't stay quiet for long.

[Marital Rape Survivor]

This law treats spouses as objects, not people. This is your law and this is rape.

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[Andrea Gunning]

in 2020 in Maryland, the bill to end the marital exemption failed. But Debbie Feinstein, the prosecutor in Montgomery county, couldn't forget about this law or about Saskia's case.

[Debbie Feinstein]

It lit a huge fire under me, under my team, and we wanted to do whatever we could to change the law.

[Andrea Gunning]

So in 2021, she and other advocates brought the bill again. But again, it failed. The same legislators spoke up, determined to keep it from passing.

[Public Podcast Advertiser]

Isn't the whole purpose of marital exceptions that we don't end up in court talking about who said what in the marital bedroom?

[Andrea Gunning]

When the bill was brought for a third year, the same objections resurfaced. It seemed like the marital exemption might be the law of the land forever. But then came 2023. A lot was different about that year. New advocates brought new stories of why the law needed to be repealed. Because of the spousal defense, I was

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unable to prosecute this man for raping an unconscious woman.

[Andrea Gunning]

More men testified on behalf of the bill.

[Stefan Turkheimer]

We must break the cycle of violence and close this vicious loop.

[Andrea Gunning]

But there was one person's testimony that stood out among the rest. It was a survivor's story. We're making the choice to omit her name for her privacy. My name is.

[Marital Rape Survivor]

I'm a sexual assault survivor and a victim of this law. Less than a year ago, I was raped by my husband. And under the existing law, what he did was legal rape. I could not respond verbally or physically. Completely incapacitated, and it constituted consent. Because I was married, I had photographic and video evidence of my assault, and instead of my proof being used to prosecute my rapist, it proved his innocence because this chamber made my rape legal. This law treats spouses as objects, not people. We are forced to satisfy sexual desires when we are deprived of strength and power. This is your law, and this is rape. You have an opportunity to correct this remnant of our past, and I'm charging each of you to do that. You've been entrusted with the power to protect your fellow citizens, and please, I implore you, make the right decision. Provide a path of healing and justice for all future victims like me. Thank you.

[Andrea Gunning]

This was the first time that a survivor of marital rape came before the legislature in support of this bill. Laurie Ruth, the public policy advocate in Maryland, remembers her testimony well.

[Lori Ruth]

Those legislators had to look her in the eye and hear an absolutely horrific story.

[Andrea Gunning]

Immediately, it was clear the survivor's words broke through. I just want to say thank you.

[Stefan Turkheimer]

That's the most impactful testimony I've ever heard on this bill. I've heard this a lot too many times, and so I Just want to say thank you for your willingness to step forward.

[Andrea Gunning]

Hearing this exchange of a legislator thanking this survivor reminds me of something Stefan said earlier.

[Stefan Turkheimer]

The story can make the person hearing it feel that they're a part of it. And when that happens and then you get to the end of the story, the person receiving that story is left with something they can do

[Andrea Gunning]

after four years. In May of 2020, three legislators voted to end Maryland's marital exemption. The bill passed the House and the Senate without a single no vote. Today, the law that allowed Mike Levengood to get off easy no longer exists in Maryland. In the last five years, similar reforms have also passed in other states, including Ohio, Minnesota, California, Mississippi, and Rhode Island. But Stefan says the fight can't stop here.

[Stefan Turkheimer]

Are the laws progressing? Yes, the laws are progressing. Is the United States in a better state than it was five years ago? Yeah, it is. Is it a better State than 20 years ago? Yeah. Is it in better shape than a lot of other countries? It absolutely is. Is it where it needs to be? No.

[Andrea Gunning]

Five states continue to treat marital rape as a lesser crime. Nevada, South Carolina, Virginia, Michigan, and Iowa. And still, in about half of the states in the U.S. rape continues to be defined in reference to physical force. Most of us don't know about these laws or even think about them until they affect us or someone we love. When Saskia first heard that the bill in Maryland had passed and that the marital exemption in her state had been overturned, I was like, finally.

[Lori Ruth]

It makes me feel relieved that I went through all of that, not in vain, that there's something good that came out of it. But look how much damage has already been done.

[Andrea Gunning]

Changing the law doesn't change what Saskia lived through, and it's unlikely to change what Mike thinks. Saskia not only endured abuse, she endured this law. A law that told Mike that what he did wasn't rape. In the end, he may always believe he's innocent.

[Saskia's Attorney]

I don't believe in my heart that I did that. I wrote to her.

[Andrea Gunning]

On the next episode of Betrayal, we dive into where Mike is today.

[Public Podcast Advertiser]

I couldn't imagine what it would be like for Saskia to first learn that her perpetrator is selling the experience that he gained from what he did to her. I just can't imagine.

[Andrea Gunning]

If you want to learn more about the laws in your state, Rainn has a database for that, go to rainn.org betrayal that's R A I N N.org betrayal click take action and select laws in your state from the dropdown menu. For resources on sexual violence, visit rainnnnnn.org betrayal that's R A I N N.org betrayal. You can also get free confidential 24. 7 support through RAINN's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE you are not alone. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team or want to tell us your story, email [e-mail] that is betrayalpodmail.com or follow us on Instagram betrayalpod to access additional content and to connect with the betrayal community. Join our [e-mail] we're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Kaitlyn Golden. Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Olivia Hewitt and Leah Jablo. Production management by Kristin Melchiori. Additional support by Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ally Perry and Jessica Krynczyk. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins with additional editing and mixing by Matt d'. Alvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, her friends and family, and special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie Lieberman. The trail's theme is composed by Oliver Baines Music Library provided by MyB Music and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Andrea Gunning]

OK Storytime this summer. Find your next obsession on Prime Video and listen. We're not saying you need another obsession, but there could be a lot worse ones. Steamy romance, addictive love stories and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice, so why not watch them a third time off campus? L the Love Hypothesis is and more Slow burns Second chances chemistry you can feel through the screen, and it makes you wish you were actually in that movie. We've got Binge worthy series can't miss movies perfect for when you're ignoring your own problems or procrastinating as one does. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime.

[Martha Stewart]

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[Andrea Gunning]

Guaranteed human.