Beyond Betrayal: The Making of Season 4

Summary

Podcast Summary: Betrayal - Beyond Betrayal: The Making of Season 4

Podcast: Betrayal (Seasons 1–4)
Episode: Beyond Betrayal: The Making of Season 4
Date: August 5, 2025
Host & Team: Andrea Gunning, Carrie Hartman, Monique Laborde, Tanner Robbins, Caitlin Golden
Production: iHeartPodcasts & Glass Podcasts

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Episode Overview

This special episode offers a candid, behind-the-scenes look at the making of Betrayal Season 4, which followed Karoline Borega’s painful discovery that her husband Joel—a respected Colorado Springs Police officer—had been leading a double life, betraying both his badge and his marriage. Andrea Gunning leads a roundtable with key members of the production team as they debrief on their process, emotional challenges, the reporting’s surprises, and the decisions that shaped this season’s narrative. The team reflects on powerful storytelling moments, building trust with sources, and how true crime reporting has affected them personally and professionally.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introductions & Team Roles

(03:56–04:19)
Each team member introduces their role:

• Carrie Hartman – Producer
• Monique Laborde – Story Editor
• Caitlin Golden – Associate Producer
• Tanner Robbins – Audio Editor

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2. Tanner’s Experience as an Audio Editor

(04:19–09:54)

• Tanner shares how approaching the season “blind,” without spoilers, let him experience the story like a listener:

  "Every episode I get, I want it to be new...Hearing the story for the first time, I thought that would make it...a better experience for me." (05:21, Tanner Robbins)

• He was shocked by access to real-time, raw audio—such as confrontations at Joel’s door and internal affairs recordings:

  “This guy recorded [the confrontation] on his phone...and then we have that. Is your wife home by chance?...I was like, this is amazing…now we're getting to hear it. And hear the lies coming from Joel directly.” (07:09, Tanner Robbins)

• Tanner describes the impact of witnessing “in-the-moment” audio, which is rare in true crime podcasts and adds significant texture.

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3. Recovering Crucial Tape & Its Impact

(09:54–11:15)

• Caitlin recounts the near loss of a pivotal audio file and her persistence in retrieving it:

  “There was one corrupted file in it that I could not open...I poked the police department...and then all of a sudden we get it back and it's this insane in-the-moment tape.” (10:00, Caitlin Golden)

• The team immediately recognized the material’s potential, transforming the story’s scale:

  “That was a big moment for us of this could be a season-long story.” (10:59, Caitlin Golden)

• Tanner frequently reacted in real time with disbelief and strong emotions, validating the story's impact.

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4. The Depths of Joel’s Deceit & Internal Affairs

(12:01–14:31)

• Tanner, emblematic of the audience, was incensed by Joel’s duplicity:

  "Every new episode, I was like, wow, this guy is plumbing the depths of human depravity." (12:01, Tanner Robbins)

• The audio from internal affairs interviews added to the tension:

  “We get to hear him lie through his teeth to his colleagues...it's so satisfying, after all the...moments before that, to get to the...closest to comeuppance.” (13:03, Tanner Robbins)

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5. Portraying Everyday Betrayals

(14:31–16:04)

• Andrea and Carrie discuss the relatability of Joel’s betrayal—how “everyday betrayals” often go overlooked:

  “You could know this guy and not know meaning. It feels so close...these everyday betrayals that really root the...pervasiveness of what's happening.” (15:04, Andrea Gunning)

• The point is to challenge the audience to examine betrayals that can happen close to home, not just sensational crimes.

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6. The Role of Dr. Jennifer Freyd and Betrayal Trauma

(16:04–17:54)

• Monique explains the vital inclusion of Dr. Freyd, who coined "betrayal trauma":

  “[She] pioneered the field, coined the term betrayal trauma...especially betrayal blindness as a concept was pretty mind blowing...so I thought having her explain it would be incredible for the show and really educational.” (16:04–16:54, Monique Laborde)

• Dr. Freyd helped explain why victims might not “see” the betrayal, countering common listener questions.

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7. Editorial Challenges: Expanding the Story’s Scope

(17:54–20:04)

• Monique recounts the challenge of expanding the narrative from Karoline’s personal story to the culture/behavior within the Colorado Springs Police Dept.:

  “One of the challenges...was when we decided to expand the story out to be about more officers...There is a larger pattern here and Joel is not a one-off case.” (18:56, Monique Laborde)

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8. Building Trust With Sources & Gaining Access

(20:04–21:48)

• Caitlin describes the hurdles of accessing whistleblowers and how building genuine relationships, especially with Claudia Aldrich, opened doors to critical interviews and information:

  “It’s been really nice to...now have a relationship with Claudia and...she’s connected us to so many different sources that we had on the show.” (21:42, Caitlin Golden)

• Andrea reflects on the challenge of persuading former/current police officers to participate and the gradual breakthrough.

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9. Examining Police Culture & Broader Institutional Issues

(21:48–26:45)

• The team discusses the balance between individual “bad apples” and systemic culture:

  “We were really examining, what does a culture do and how does culture affect the behavior of people that are trying to protect your community? And I think that was the larger point of episode six and seven.” (22:19, Andrea Gunning)

• Monique underscores the impact:

  “It just comes down to the fact that if I would call 911 in a crisis, I don't want someone like that showing up. It's a position of power.” (23:59, Monique Laborde)

• Tanner highlights the broader context of institutional betrayal:

  “We’re giving them this view of this very specific department and how the sausage of institutional betrayal is made.” (26:15, Tanner Robbins)

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10. Karoline’s Personal Betrayal & Institutional Blindness

(26:45–28:05)

• Monique draws from Dr. Freyd’s interview to illustrate “institutional betrayal”:

  “Dr. Freyd used...the second concussion—the first hit on the head being the betrayal, and then the second hit...the lack of being supported or...believed by an institution when you report...” (27:10, Monique Laborde)

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11. Discovering the Importance of Truthfulness in Policing

(28:05–29:45)

• Andrea and Tanner discuss how the season explored the foundational value of honesty within police work:

  “The one main thing that will get you fired as a police officer is not telling the truth is lying...the importance of truthfulness when it comes to law enforcement is so important.” (28:05, Andrea Gunning) “Joel got in trouble for lying to his own department...not for lying to anybody else...They can lie to suspects and the people they’re interrogating.” (29:22, Tanner Robbins)

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12. Building Rapport with Karoline & Source Management

(30:32–34:15)

• Carrie details the unique dynamic of joining after Monique had already built rapport with Karoline:

  “When we were out in Colorado and she's like, I love you, but you're not Mo...I'm like a fungus. I will grow on you.” (31:09, Carrie Hartman)

• The team takes pride in developing genuine, lasting relationships with sources, spending extended time together during research trips.

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13. Managing Emotional Fallout, Setting Boundaries, and Maintaining Well-Being

(34:15–39:13)

• Team members share their varied ways of coping with the emotional toll:

  “I’m really good at compartmentalizing that stuff...but those instances are few and far between...when I can't, I break out the Chianti.” (35:01, Carrie Hartman) “I started some anxiety medication because I was just, like, getting too paranoid about, you know, like, my own safety.” (36:38, Tanner Robbins) “It is so remarkable that every single day, each of us are talking to people who have been through some of the hardest things...to be a part of helping those people help other people is a huge honor.” (38:26, Caitlin Golden)

• Monique distinguishes the emotional weight during interviews from the more clinical scripting/editing process:

  “The interview, I feel one way, and then once I'm seeing it in a script, I feel a little more clinical about it...But, yeah, the larger point is that...once they're proud to have shared their story...I'm able to focus on that feeling...” (39:13, Monique Laborde)

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14. Navigating Reporting Without a Criminal Conviction

(40:52–42:24)

• Andrea reflects on reporting a story where the perpetrator was never legally convicted:

  “Because he wasn't convicted of a crime, we needed to see what was in the public domain...but there was so much documentation, so much reporting...” (41:18, Andrea Gunning)

• The team leaned into available investigation files to ensure accuracy and responsibility.

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15. What’s Next: Upcoming Seasons & Teases

(42:24–44:04)

• Betrayal Weekly Season 2 launches August 7th; Monique hints at “incredible episodes...stories unlike anything I’ve ever heard.” (42:24, Monique Laborde)
• Betrayal Season 5 (produced by Caitlin) arrives mid-January and will focus on stories where “the person caring for you turns out to be causing the suffering,” and addresses stories where "the law isn’t on your side." (43:22, Caitlin Golden)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Every episode I get, I want it to be new...Hearing the story for the first time, I thought that would make it...a better experience for me." — Tanner Robbins, 05:21
• “There was one corrupted file...I poked the police department...and then all of a sudden we get it back and it's this insane in-the-moment tape." — Caitlin Golden, 10:00
• "Joel is one of the most complicated characters out of all four seasons...You could know this guy and not know meaning. It feels so close." — Andrea Gunning, 14:31
• “[Dr. Freyd] pioneered the field, coined the term betrayal trauma...betrayal blindness as a concept was pretty mind blowing...” — Monique Laborde, 16:04–16:54
• “We're giving them this view of this very specific department and how the sausage of institutional betrayal is made.” — Tanner Robbins, 26:15
• “The one main thing that will get you fired as a police officer is not telling the truth is lying...the importance of truthfulness...is so important.” — Andrea Gunning, 28:05
• “When we were out in Colorado and she's like, I love you, but you're not Mo...I'm like a fungus. I will grow on you.” — Carrie Hartman, 31:09
• “It is so remarkable...we are talking to people who have been through...the hardest things...and they're...making the choice to help other people.” — Caitlin Golden, 38:26

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Team Introductions: 03:56–04:19
• Tanner’s Blind Approach & Impactful Tape: 04:19–09:54
• Rescuing and Using Critical Audio: 09:54–11:15
• Joel’s Duplicity & Internal Affairs: 12:01–14:31
• Exploring Everyday Betrayals: 14:31–16:04
• Dr. Freyd & Betrayal Trauma: 16:04–17:54
• Expanding to Police Culture: 17:54–20:04
• Building Trust With Whistleblowers: 20:04–21:48
• Culture and Misconduct in CSPD: 21:48–26:45
• Institutional Betrayal (Dr. Freyd’s Metaphor): 26:45–28:05
• Truth & Lying in Policing: 28:05–29:45
• Rapport Challenges with Karoline: 30:32–34:15
• Emotional Impact and Coping: 34:15–39:13
• Reporting Without a Conviction: 40:52–42:24
• Season Teasers: 42:24–44:04

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Tone & Style

Throughout, the team is open, reflective, and supportive, sharing both professional insights and personal reactions. There’s humor, candor (e.g., “I’m like a fungus. I will grow on you.”), and a serious undertone about the impact of telling these difficult but important stories. The conversation is respectful, frequently pausing to acknowledge each other’s contributions and the voices of the subjects at the heart of the series.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode illuminates the rigor, empathy, and ethical care behind reporting on real-life betrayals, particularly when the story involves trusted institutions and “everyday” people. Listeners are shown how the team built this season—through investigative doggedness, relationship building, emotional resilience, and a commitment to exploring not just the facts of betrayal but its psychological and societal ripples.

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For more exclusive content, community discussion, and behind-the-scenes insights, listeners are encouraged to join the Beyond Betrayal Substack.

Transcript

[Monique Laborde]

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[Carrie Hartman]

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[Carrie Hartman]

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[Caitlin Golden]

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[Monique Laborde]

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[Carrie Hartman]

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[Tanner Robbins]

What makes you you?

[Andrea Gunning]

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[Carrie Hartman]

Hi, I'm Carrie Hartman and I'm the producer of Betrayal Season four.

[Monique Laborde]

I'm Monique Laborde and I was the story editor on Betrayal Season four.

[Caitlin Golden]

Hi, I'm Kaitlin golden and I am the associate producer on Season four.

[Tanner Robbins]

Hello, I'm Tanner Robbins. I was the audio editor for season four of Betrayal.

[Andrea Gunning]

I'm really excited to sit and talk with you guys because we haven't really debriefed the season altogether, and I have questions for all of you. But I want to start with Tanner because I've been able to meet everybody, like, week to week with Carrie, Mo, and Caitlin and talk about episodes that we've produced, but I haven't sat or talked with you about the experience. Tell me a little bit about what it's been like for you to work on this season as an editor and as a listener.

[Tanner Robbins]

Working on this season has been really fun just because there's been so much fascinating tape and things that I would just get audio from Carrie and Caitlin and realize, how did they get this? This is absolutely wild. So it's been a pleasure to hear just such a fully well rounded story told in audio that I feel like is so. It's so hard to get. It's so uncommon to have such a, like, deep access to a group of people and to an investigation within a police department. To have access to those files, too. And then just the random sort of people involved in this story that, you know, nameless people who we can't name because they, you know, had. Were involved in the affairs that Joel committed. Having audio from those people and their interactions with Joel gives you a lot to work with. And I actually told Carrie, don't tell me anything in advance. Every episode I get, I want it to be new. I want to experience the show as I'm putting it together. You know, literally, you know, putting it together. Hearing the story for the first time, I thought that would make it for, you know, a better experience for me. That helped me give better feedback, but also just, I get to hear the story as if I'm a listener.

[Andrea Gunning]

I was gonna mention that that was one of your requests to not know anything about the story ahead of time. And so you're really meeting the material fresh with really limited understanding of where we're going. Can you tell me a little bit about some of the moments that you found shocking or that were really memorable to you, like hearing it for the first time? I'm curious what those were.

[Tanner Robbins]

The one that stands out in my mind is when Joel is confronted at his front door by the husband of one of the women that he slept with, cheated on his wife with, and finding that we. He. This guy recorded it on his phone or something, recorded this interaction. And then we have that. Is your wife home, by chance?

[Andrea Gunning]

What is that?

[Caitlin Golden]

I am.

[Tanner Robbins]

No, that's my wife out there. The one that you in your cruiser. What are you talking about? I'm not here to harass you. I'm saying Joel.

[Carrie Hartman]

Yeah, I'm talking about you.

[Caitlin Golden]

Okay.

[Tanner Robbins]

My wife is there. I would want to know if you know her. I have no idea who you're talking about. I was like, this is amazing. We. We sort of talked about this moment, and now we're getting to hear it. And hear the lies coming from Joel directly, hearing him being confronted with what he's done and trying to deflect it. And I was just like, this is. This is incredible. That was surprising. The recording of the renter also was surprising because, I mean, I just love any time we have in the field, in the moment audio that can really take you to the actual events. Because a lot of times in shows like this, especially true crime shows, you're looking back on what happened, right? You're asking people, what did you do? What did they do? What did you say? What did they say? How did this go down? And here we got audio where we get to hear it. We get to hear exactly how it went down. And because it's such natural tape, there's so much, I don't know, texture to it that you feel like you're there. I could see it when I was hearing it.

[Andrea Gunning]

Same.

[Tanner Robbins]

And that stuff was exciting to me as an audio editor because it really helps me to paint the picture with the audio.

[Andrea Gunning]

Those two moments are extremely intimate. It is like you're kind of dropping in on a moment and thinking, should I be hearing this? And you're right. Like we're asking audiences to imagine because it is a lot of it's past tense or they're talking about something that has happened. You're asking the audience to imagine something that has happened or create a person or an image of a person in their head. But you're really giving examples through this intimate tape to really showcase exactly what the interaction with this person is and was. It's really fascinating and incredible access. So it's been a joy working with you on this season. And I'm glad that you were hearing things as we were producing. And I think that was a really great way to work together and get feedback. So that was really cool.

[Caitlin Golden]

Could I pop in with just one quick story about that audio? Specifically about the.

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah, of course.

[Caitlin Golden]

We actually almost didn't get that audio of the husband of the person that Joel had an affair with coming to the front door. So what happened when we initially got that huge dump of records is there was one corrupted file in it that I could not open. And at first we were like, oh, this is probably just. It had a really vague name of just an address. So we had no idea what that was. But I just had a feeling that it would somehow matter. And I went back and I poked the police department and said, oh, I.

[Monique Laborde]

Think there's a mistake here.

[Caitlin Golden]

Can we have this? And then all of a sudden we get it back and it's this insane in the moment tape. And I just remember, you know, getting on the phone right after we got that tape with Andrea and Carrie and Mo, and I really feel like that was a big moment for us of this could be a season long story. So, yeah, it's cool to think about how that tape is really integral to how we are where we are now.

[Carrie Hartman]

Since we're popping in here. I just want to mention Tanner responded in real time.

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah.

[Carrie Hartman]

Okay. So as soon as he listened to these things, we would get these wild texts like, oh, my God, are you kidding? He did what? So he really was like a listener. And it was another way we kind of knew we were telling a good story was because editors are sort of notoriously. I don't want to generalize, but I'm going to generalize, like, very steady. They have like, a kind of a flat effect. You know, they work with tape all day. He was, like, so emotive about these things. So we kind of knew from his response that it was interesting and different.

[Tanner Robbins]

I was angry. I was like, this guy's a piece of shit is what I was thinking. And it's like every. Every new episode, I was like, wow, this guy is plumbing the depths of human depravity every single episode. And I didn't mention. There's the tape of the two people who are. Well, the guy who's accusing him and then the woman who's sort of helping him cover it up, the renter who is being forced to lie. Joel's making her lie.

[Andrea Gunning]

Right.

[Tanner Robbins]

And later on, we have the interviews, the internal affairs investigation interviews with Joel. Can you describe that for us? Just met her through there, and then we started talking and then share common interests and became friends. But I just know her as her first name. I don't know her last name or anything like that. Well, you recognize the pictures, right? Yeah, now I do.

[Monique Laborde]

Yep.

[Tanner Robbins]

Joel, you know how that's looking, right? Is this the person making allegations? We'll get to that. But, I mean, if we're trying to establish credibility veracity. I'm showing you a picture. I'm giving you a chance to take a look at it. You're telling me to my face that you don't recognize him. Well, I was mistaken. I apologize for that. I recognize her because of. Just met her at brew functions. But that's it where you get to hear him lie through his teeth to his colleagues about what's going on. All the while, we already know that he's lying, and we get to hear him waffle back and forth. They know he's lying also, which was so exciting to hear, just the tension. And I had a lot of fun building that moment in audio with sound design. These questions that are like, leading questions. And it's very obvious that the police know what's going on, and Joel's just not picking up on it. And it was so satisfying, after all the. What. The moments before that, to get to the. I mean, it's hard to call it comeuppance, but it's the closest to comeuppance that we were getting at that moment. So that was really exciting, too.

[Andrea Gunning]

I've gotten a lot of messages from friends and family members and listeners saying, Joel is one of the most complicated characters out of all four seasons for a lot of people. And I'm not saying his crimes are the most egregious, because we know that they aren't. But I think a lot of people are struggling with Joel because you could know this guy and not know meaning. It feels so close.

[Carrie Hartman]

Yeah.

[Andrea Gunning]

And I really appreciate that messaging, because that's actually the point of the show, which is like these everyday betrayals that really root the, you know, the pervasiveness of what's happening, I think often is overlooked. It's like we can't always have these massive, extreme betrayals for people to lean in and listen. It's these really everyday things that make people question. Okay, actually, there's something that's going on, and this is actually close to home. Mo, my next question is for you. You story edited the season, but you also had the privilege of interviewing Dr. Jennifer Fried, who was featured in the last episode, and you were a huge advocate for getting Dr. Fried on the show. Can you tell me a little bit about why you felt like that was important and walk me through, you know, the importance of why we had her on the show.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah. So with Dr. Fried, I hadn't heard of her before I started on this show, but after I started working on betrayal, I was interested in the psychological experience of betrayal trauma, and what it does to a person's brain and nervous system, Mostly just so I could better understand the subjects we were working with and better tell their stories. And so when I was doing that research, Dr. Freud is the godparent, the godmother of betrayal. The godmother of betrayal trauma. I mean, she pioneered the field, coined the term betrayal trauma. And then the more I was watching interviews with her, listening to interviews with her, and reading about her work, I realized especially betrayal blindness as a concept was pretty mind blowing to me and I think really clicked, made a lot of sense in what we see in the subjects we work with. We get so many comments from listeners saying, how could this person not have known? And I think there is a lack of understanding about how betrayal blindness really functions and that psychological phenomena. So I thought having her explain it would be incredible for the show and really educational for our audience Because I had learned so much researching her. She is really the academic foremost expert on this topic. Without her, a lot of the concepts we talk about, you know, we wouldn't have this cultural understanding about betrayal trauma. We wouldn't have these words without her work. So I was really honored and grateful that she agreed to do the interview with us.

[Andrea Gunning]

You had a really interesting job this season. While Carrie, Caitlin and the editors were in the weeds of the everyday, you were that larger perspective of keeping the train on the tracks. And it's like, are we making it to our destination? Tell me a little bit about what episode you found the most challenging at the same time rewarding.

[Monique Laborde]

So for me, I couldn't come in blind.

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah.

[Monique Laborde]

We've talked about before on the substack, I had worked with Caroline potentially making her story for the weekly series, and I had done the first interview with her. That was a pretty long interview, like five hours. And so I knew already a lot of the details of the story, but seeing it all come together with the tape we were able to access from the police department and from the Kern family's life that they gave us, the people around Caroline and her family, that was really incredible.

[Tanner Robbins]

Mm.

[Monique Laborde]

And I think one of the challenges that we hit was when we decided to expand the story out to be about more officers in the Colorado Springs Police Department that were also breaking the code of conduct. And so we talked a lot internally about is this the right thing to do, to zoom out? We're shifting focus from Caroline's story, but there is a larger pattern here, and Joel is not a one off case. And I think a lot of what we do, the work we do on betrayal, is taking a story and then expanding out to a larger pattern of behavior, of wrongdoing and looking into how that plays out in society and how people are able to get justice or able to try to repair those wrongs. So I think that was one of the biggest challenges, but I'm really happy that we did that so we have a larger perspective and scope on the Colorado Springs Police Department outside of just Joel's employment there.

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah. I wanna turn my attention to Caitlin. You've been on a few sub stacks, so people kind of already know you. As our associate producer, I wanna talk to you specifically about tracking down the archival and certain people of access for this season. What were some of your roadblocks? What were some of your breakthroughs? What was it like? Cause you were kind of a dog on a bone.

[Caitlin Golden]

The season, one of the biggest challenges was like, Mo was talking about figuring out how do we zoom this out without getting too far away from that initial story. And these issues that we're really asking people to think about of, you know, police officers who are betraying the badge and Claudia Aldrich the whistleblower was really at the core of all of that. And I think gaining her trust and getting her to see that we are people who would honor her story. And the story of so many other former cops and employees at CSPD was really difficult. But, you know, one of the things that doesn't get featured on the show is that we build real relationships with these people. And, you know, it's been really nice to, yeah, feel like we now have a relationship with Claudia and that we've been able to, you know, she's connected us to so many different sources that we had on the show, like a former cop named John.

[Monique Laborde]

Right.

[Caitlin Golden]

Who really helped us to understand the story of Glen Thomas. And that was a really big get for us.

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah. I think the biggest challenge of this season was trying to get former officers, current officers, current employees, former employees of CSPD to participate. And when we were out in Colorado Springs, we had people lined up, they fell through. But while we were on the ground, we had already known about this whistleblower network, but it wasn't something that we had really dug into yet to get access to. And I remember Carrie and I just, like looking through all of the posts, sitting down with our attorney at lunch and being like, look at what's out here, look at what's online and being reported and figuring out a way to make contact. And that was something that you took on and really ran with and create a relationship with Claudia, which was incredible. It went from this thing that felt far away online to an interview in a matter of months, which was amazing, and I think had impact. And I think one of the biggest struggles, and I think you guys can all probably understand, is that there was this balance of leaning into misconduct and culture. Because I do think the culture at CSPD is like the larger discussion. Right. Because it breeds opportunity for misconduct. We kept saying, this isn't an example of the most egregious discussion misconduct out there, but we were really examining, what does a culture do and how does culture affect the behavior of people that are trying to protect your community? And I think that was the larger point of episode six and seven. I don't know how that occurs for any of you guys or how you feel about that.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah, I think it was important for us because in our previous seasons, especially two and three, we've been able to zoom out and talk about child sexual abuse materials and how they're prosecuted or those crimes are not prosecuted often.

[Caitlin Golden]

Yeah.

[Monique Laborde]

And then with child sexual abuse, in particular of boys in season three, we were able to zoom out and talk to one in Six with this one. You know, we don't have the same kind of statistics, and we can't universalize it in the same way. But there are people like Joel in a lot of police departments. And for me, it just comes down to the fact that if I would call 911 in a crisis, I don't want someone like that showing up. It's a position of power. It really is, And I think it's important to be able to talk about those people.

[Tanner Robbins]

Mm.

[Monique Laborde]

So I do think that zooming out for episodes six and seven, even though it was a departure, added something to the larger story. Yeah.

[Caitlin Golden]

I also think it's. In a lot of true crime media, there's a really deep focus on the psychology of perpetrators. And I think that's super interesting to find out, you know, how does a person become a serial killer, for instance? But I think the trap that a lot of true crime media gets into with that is if it's just about individual psychology, then it's just about these bad apples. And I think what we've been able to do with this season is explore how is that psychology, coupled with this broader culture of misconduct, creating these perfect storms and, you know, making it so that these people who maybe did have histories of abuse or, you know, maybe naturally were more inclined towards lying, were then pushed even further.

[Monique Laborde]

Right.

[Tanner Robbins]

I just wanted to add, you know, we were talking about institutional betrayal in episode 10, and I feel like these. These episodes, like episodes six and seven, where we're broadening out and talking about police misconduct, I feel like that's also in the cultural context that we live in right now. I think people are very aware, maybe more aware than ever, that there are bad apples, but they also spoil the whole bunch, as the expression goes, and that it is a culture that we all experience, and it does have an impact on our lives. And so hearing this, it's kind of like we're telling the audience what they already in some ways know, but we're giving them this view of this very specific department and how the sausage of this institutional betrayal is made, which I thought was really valuable and also, if not shocking, at least validating to the way that a lot of people feel and think about their own police department.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah. That's another reason I was so glad we were able to interview Dr. Fried, because Caroline, having put 20 years of her life into supporting her husband and believing in the police department and his career in the police department, bringing him food and making food for the other officers and just opening her home up to be a Place where they felt welcome. Like, the experience of having the officers who stayed employed there turn their backs on her and not believe her was something that it's hard to understand the magnitude of that betrayal. So having Dr. Fried be able to talk about institutional betrayal, the metaphor she used about the second concussion, like a brain injury, the first hit on the head being the betrayal, and then the second hit of the head being the lack of being supported or lack of being believed by an institution when you report or when you try to say, this is what happened. And I think Dr. Fry being able to contextualize institutional betrayal with real research was, like, really helpful to illustrating the point of the loss Caroline experienced.

[Andrea Gunning]

Totally. And it didn't dawn on me until this season. The one main thing that will get you fired as a police officer is not telling the truth is lying. And we all understand, like, misconduct and excessive force and things like that, but the standard like that's there is no, you get caught lying, you're done. That was something. That was a new concept for me, and I really think that it was an important exploration this season of why truth is important, why truth is important in our justice system and how that works. Because I don't think as a society, as just citizens, your community, you think about the importance of truthfulness when it comes to law enforcement is so important, something you just kind of take for granted. You see someone in a uniform, you assume that they're a respectful person, a truthful person. But when you really pressure test and second guess, is that person capable of lying to me? And what does that mean for my basic civil liberties? I think that it just makes you sit with those questions that I think are really important for our society today.

[Tanner Robbins]

I think it's worth noting that Joel got in trouble for lying to his own department, to other police officers, not for lying to anybody else. He didn't. I mean, he can lie to people out in public. He can. Police officers notoriously are able to lie to the suspects and the people they're interrogating.

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah, it's a really good point, Tanner.

[Monique Laborde]

I want to say with that, too, the internal affairs tape, like we've said before, this is. We know this is not the most egregious example of Joel's case, is not the most egregious example of police misconduct. But having an internal affairs proceeding with all this tape, one of the reasons it's so valuable is because these things are often happening extraditiously, even if someone could be charged with a crime. Instead, what happens is the internal affairs process and so it's kind of. It's almost like the military court system, you know, like a military trial. Like what is happening inside when something goes wrong. And that is not something we see because it's not often brought to court unless it's the most egregious examples.

[Andrea Gunning]

Carrie, we've unpacked a lot of this season, but I'm curious, I don't know if we've talked about this yet. What was it like for you to build a relationship with Caroline, especially since she had gotten so comfortable with Mo? It was something that this season we. We had never encountered before in pre. In previous seasons. So I'm just curious, what, what was that like for you?

[Carrie Hartman]

A challenge.

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah.

[Carrie Hartman]

I think one of the things that helped was I. I kind of acknowledged it from the gate. So when we were out in Colorado and she's like, I love you, but you're not Mo.

[Andrea Gunning]

I was like.

[Carrie Hartman]

And I said, no, no. And, you know, she brings a set to the table. But you, you. I'm like, I'm like a fungus. I will grow on you. And that's what I think happened, honestly, because, you know, when you pour your guts out to somebody, and sometimes I think it really is easier with a total stranger. When somebody doesn't know all the players, they don't know your family. You can tell them everything. But she had just done that. So me walking into the picture after that was like, you know, having said that, she said it like in a cheeky way. And I think we over time establish trust. And I would get funny little tidbits or she'd have a thought and text me. And that's when I know we've kind of rounded that corner. One thing that we do as a team, we go out to wherever they live, Utah, Colorado, wherever. And we spend real time. We have meals together, we meet family and friends. And I think that has a lot to do with how we're able to build rapport because, you know, we're not in, you know, a 30 minute Zoom call. We're together for hours, and people can get a better idea of who you are, what your goals are, how you work. So I think that that helped. But she did set a high bar for me to jump over, I have to say.

[Monique Laborde]

Well, you know, when we first did that, when I first did the interview with Caroline, we didn't know that it would become season four. We thought it would be for the weekly series. And so once we got this tape from the police department and decided this is a bicker story and Got season four greenlit as Caroline's story. It was also important for me to really take a step back and hand do an official pass off and say, carrie's gonna be your producer now, knowing that you were gonna be there in person with Andrea, meeting her in her home, and that that relationship would grow over time and deepen in a way that I would never had access to, because you're there in person in her life. And, like, it was important for me to officially kind of transition it off so that there weren't two. I wasn't a shadow producer where she's calling me also and telling me about something, and then I have to tell you, she.

[Andrea Gunning]

I was like, I. I've had that happen.

[Carrie Hartman]

I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah, it could be. I mean, this is, like, really behind the curtains, like, inside baseball. But this is what happens. I mean, you have a whole team working on a story, and you develop, like, real feelings for people. I still hear from some of the women we worked with. These are continuing relationships, which is why one of the reasons I like being here, because we're more. We're a little bit more invested.

[Andrea Gunning]

And speaking to that investment, when you're dealing with working on something so intense and heavy, that has real impact. That can be hard to deal with day in and day out for six months, eight months, nine months, a year. I'm curious for all of you, what boundaries or emotional scaffolding do you guys have to help get through some of the hard days when you're hearing stuff that are really intense? I know for me, I work out. I do weightlifting, and that's a huge way of me kind of processing the day before. So I'm curious for you guys, how do you manage? Because you feel the stress. You can feel that sadness, and I can stay with you.

[Carrie Hartman]

I'm really good at compartmentalizing that stuff. There have been a few occasions where I leave work. I mean, when I leave work, it means I, like, I leave this room and go to another room, but I leave work, and it's still. You know, I'm thinking about it and thinking about it. I'm dreaming about it. But those. Those instances are few and far between. So I'm able to kind of, like, keep things in a place, and when I can't, you know, I break out the Chianti. Not as healthy as your solution, obviously.

[Andrea Gunning]

Tanner, how about you?

[Tanner Robbins]

For me, luckily, I have some distance from all of this. I'm getting the pieces of the interview that have already been looked through by the producers, they'd already picked the best parts, so I don't have to hear maybe the worst elements as well. Shows where you're talking about, see, Sam, or you're talking about gruesome crimes, I would say I don't think I handle it very well in the sense that I'm like, everything's fine. But, you know, I worked on a true crime show where I had to start some anxiety medication because I was just, like, getting too paranoid about, you know, like, my own safety. You hear stories sometimes and things happen to people, and you can't help but extrapolate that to, like, well, could somebody do that to me?

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah, I had that on there and gone.

[Tanner Robbins]

Yeah, it's terrifying. Especially when there's so much mystery around, like, what happened to a person. It really opens up the floodgates of your mind to, you know, catastrophize.

[Andrea Gunning]

I do bring some of my betrayal stuff home with me. I mean, Caroline was asking this about when we were out in Colorado Springs. We were meeting with her and Suzanne because I had recently got engaged, and they were like, does any of this affect how you feel about marriage and relationships? And I'm not gonna lie. Like, there are moments where I'm. I'm really tough. And even it's any. How I approach finances and, like, really big decisions about bringing fully together are. Is impacted by these stories that I've worked on because I focus on people who are dealing with the aftermath of relationship falling apart. And so I give a lot of credit to my fiance. It's hard. So that stuff, I think I definitely. I'm not necessarily conscious of, but I'm definitely. It comes out.

[Caitlin Golden]

It's also so interesting, you know, because we're always kind of dealing with the big story on the limited run and then dealing with many stories at once on Betrayal Weekly. And you never really know what is going to really hit for you. I mean, you know, we were working on a Betrayal Weekly episode just a few weeks ago where, you know, I think all of us had this moment of, wow, this is something that's really physically violent and is hitting us in really different ways. I feel like I often get the question from friends of mine of, like, are. Are you depressed all the time from all this material? And I think one thing that's been really helpful for me is just centering a deep sense of gratitude. It is so remarkable that every single day, each of us are talking to people who have been through some of the hardest things that people can ever go through, and they're not only coming out on the other side of it for themselves, but they are making the choice to help other people. And to be a part of helping those people help other people is a huge honor and I think makes our work feel a lot less heavy to me.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah, well, for me, there's really two different emotional experiences, and the one that's the most difficult is the interview. When I'm in an interview with someone, I really am feeling their emotions with them, and sometimes I'm crying with them, and, you know, that's a really emotional experience that I, like, have to recover from and, like, take care of myself afterwards. But after that happens, you know, when we say goodbye, almost always they're thanking me for listening, and they're saying how it feels good to be able to be heard and believed and to tell their story in one sitting. And so that I leave ultimately feeling positively about the interaction that we've had, even though they've told me about some of the worst things they've ever experienced. And then it's that gratitude that comes with the continued interaction with them, with the storytellers as they're screening the episodes, as we're following up, that they're so proud to have shared their story and happy to have shared their story. I'm able to focus on that feeling and not the feeling or the experience of the worst part of their story. But, yeah, the larger point is that, like, the interview, I feel one way, and then once I'm seeing it in a script, I feel a little more clinical about it. It's a little bit. It's removed. It's like, okay, this is an episode now, and I'm able to separate compartmentalize those two experiences out and think about it from the listener's experience when making the episode, as opposed to the interpersonal experience I'm having in the interview. I have a question for you.

[Andrea Gunning]

Oh, you do?

[Monique Laborde]

I was going to ask you, Dre, about how this. Because this season is different in a few ways from the other seasons we've worked on. One of the biggest differences is that the person who was doing the betraying was never convicted of a crime. So I'm wondering about your experience reporting this as well, and how do you think about this one differently from previous seasons you've worked on?

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah, I mean, because he wasn't convicted of a crime, we needed to see what was in the public domain and what was out there. And so that's really what started the hunt for the IA Files. And so once we got all that reporting and understood we have all of these files, and this is really what's underneath. It was kind of like any other season because there was so much documentation, so much reporting, like the investigation files were there. And this story, I feel like kind of met me at the right time because I think we all kind of are in a place in time where, like, what is truth and what does the truth mean to you? And I think that this season really, really explores that. Well, before we wrap up, we have this is not the end of Betrayal. We have a lot of news. So Mo, obviously you produce the always on that show's coming back. You want to tell the audience when to expect to hear the first episode.

[Monique Laborde]

Yes. Our first episode of season two of Betrayal Weekly comes out Thursday, August 7th. So mark your calendars. Subscribe. And we are going to be starting with some episodes, some incredible episodes, some stories unlike anything I've ever heard. Yeah, we really found some storytellers who are able to reflect on what they've been through and have overcome things unimaginable. So it's been a really rewarding season to start working on. We're about six episodes in to our production, so we're really excited to start sharing these episodes with y' all in August.

[Andrea Gunning]

And season five is right around the corner. Caitlin, you are producing this season. You want to give a little bit of a teaser and when we should expect that to launch?

[Caitlin Golden]

Yeah, for sure. So season five is coming out mid January, and it's a story about what happens when the person who is caring for you turns out to be the one causing you to be suffering. And it's also a story about what happens when the law isn't on your side. And I think it's very relevant to a lot of global stories that are going on right now, and it's coming directly from many stories that we've been hearing from listeners in our inbox. So I think it'll be a very special season.

[Andrea Gunning]

Well, I have to say I'm really proud of everyone and their work this season, and thanks for all of your hard work. It's been kind of a race to the finish line, so congrats to everyone and congrats to Matt, who is another editor on the show who is not here today. But thank you so much, and I've loved every second of working on this season with you guys. Thank you for listening to Betrayal Season four. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email [e-mail] that's betrayalpodmail.com Also, please be sure to follow us at Glass Podcasts on Instagram for all Betrayal content, news and updates. One way to support the series is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Please rate and review betrayal 5 star reviews. Help us know you appreciate what we do. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Betrayal is hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Carrie Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our associate producers are Kaitlyn golden and Kristin Melchiori. Our iHeart team is Ally Perry and Jessica Krynczyk. Story editing by Monique Laborde audio editing by Matt D' Alvecchio and Tanner Robbins and mixed by Matt D' Alvecchio, and special thanks to Caroline and her family. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines Music Library provided by Mind Music and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tanner Robbins]

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[Andrea Gunning]

We're back for season four to talk to some incredible small business owners.

[Tanner Robbins]

The big thing about working at Tech is that it's ever evolving, ever changing. Everyone's a rookie. That's how fast the industry is changing. So what I'm really excited about is to be part of that change. So listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Have you heard of this new Netflix series, His and Hers? This new mystery series stars Tessa Thompson as Anna, a journalist in Atlanta, and John Bernthal as Detective Jack Harper. When Anna catches wind of a murder in Dahlonega, the sleepy town where she grew up, she pounces on the case and searches for Ana answers. Detective Jack Harper is strangely suspicious of her involvement, chasing her into the crosshairs of his own investigation. It's a show that reminds you that small towns are often filled with the most secrets and no one is who they seem. Seriously, with every twist, you're left wondering, can you trust anyone in this town? Can Anna and Jack trust each other? Or is one of them hiding something? The closer they get to each other, the closer they get to the truth, and we cannot wait to see how it unfolds. Don't miss the suspense and the drama. Watch his and hers now only on Netflix.

[Monique Laborde]

This is an I heart podcast.

[Carrie Hartman]

Guaranteed human.