Podcast Summary: Betrayal - Beyond Betrayal: The Making of Season 4

Podcast: Betrayal (Seasons 1–4)
Episode: Beyond Betrayal: The Making of Season 4
Date: August 5, 2025
Host & Team: Andrea Gunning, Carrie Hartman, Monique Laborde, Tanner Robbins, Caitlin Golden
Production: iHeartPodcasts & Glass Podcasts

Episode Overview

This special episode offers a candid, behind-the-scenes look at the making of Betrayal Season 4, which followed Karoline Borega’s painful discovery that her husband Joel—a respected Colorado Springs Police officer—had been leading a double life, betraying both his badge and his marriage. Andrea Gunning leads a roundtable with key members of the production team as they debrief on their process, emotional challenges, the reporting’s surprises, and the decisions that shaped this season’s narrative. The team reflects on powerful storytelling moments, building trust with sources, and how true crime reporting has affected them personally and professionally.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introductions & Team Roles

(03:56–04:19)
Each team member introduces their role:

• Carrie Hartman – Producer
• Monique Laborde – Story Editor
• Caitlin Golden – Associate Producer
• Tanner Robbins – Audio Editor

2. Tanner’s Experience as an Audio Editor

(04:19–09:54)

• Tanner shares how approaching the season “blind,” without spoilers, let him experience the story like a listener:

  "Every episode I get, I want it to be new...Hearing the story for the first time, I thought that would make it...a better experience for me." (05:21, Tanner Robbins)

• He was shocked by access to real-time, raw audio—such as confrontations at Joel’s door and internal affairs recordings:

  “This guy recorded [the confrontation] on his phone...and then we have that. Is your wife home by chance?...I was like, this is amazing…now we're getting to hear it. And hear the lies coming from Joel directly.” (07:09, Tanner Robbins)

• Tanner describes the impact of witnessing “in-the-moment” audio, which is rare in true crime podcasts and adds significant texture.

3. Recovering Crucial Tape & Its Impact

(09:54–11:15)

• Caitlin recounts the near loss of a pivotal audio file and her persistence in retrieving it:

  “There was one corrupted file in it that I could not open...I poked the police department...and then all of a sudden we get it back and it's this insane in-the-moment tape.” (10:00, Caitlin Golden)

• The team immediately recognized the material’s potential, transforming the story’s scale:

  “That was a big moment for us of this could be a season-long story.” (10:59, Caitlin Golden)

• Tanner frequently reacted in real time with disbelief and strong emotions, validating the story's impact.

4. The Depths of Joel’s Deceit & Internal Affairs

(12:01–14:31)

• Tanner, emblematic of the audience, was incensed by Joel’s duplicity:

  "Every new episode, I was like, wow, this guy is plumbing the depths of human depravity." (12:01, Tanner Robbins)

• The audio from internal affairs interviews added to the tension:

  “We get to hear him lie through his teeth to his colleagues...it's so satisfying, after all the...moments before that, to get to the...closest to comeuppance.” (13:03, Tanner Robbins)

5. Portraying Everyday Betrayals

(14:31–16:04)

• Andrea and Carrie discuss the relatability of Joel’s betrayal—how “everyday betrayals” often go overlooked:

  “You could know this guy and not know meaning. It feels so close...these everyday betrayals that really root the...pervasiveness of what's happening.” (15:04, Andrea Gunning)

• The point is to challenge the audience to examine betrayals that can happen close to home, not just sensational crimes.

6. The Role of Dr. Jennifer Freyd and Betrayal Trauma

(16:04–17:54)

• Monique explains the vital inclusion of Dr. Freyd, who coined "betrayal trauma":

  “[She] pioneered the field, coined the term betrayal trauma...especially betrayal blindness as a concept was pretty mind blowing...so I thought having her explain it would be incredible for the show and really educational.” (16:04–16:54, Monique Laborde)

• Dr. Freyd helped explain why victims might not “see” the betrayal, countering common listener questions.

7. Editorial Challenges: Expanding the Story’s Scope

(17:54–20:04)

• Monique recounts the challenge of expanding the narrative from Karoline’s personal story to the culture/behavior within the Colorado Springs Police Dept.:

  “One of the challenges...was when we decided to expand the story out to be about more officers...There is a larger pattern here and Joel is not a one-off case.” (18:56, Monique Laborde)

8. Building Trust With Sources & Gaining Access

(20:04–21:48)

• Caitlin describes the hurdles of accessing whistleblowers and how building genuine relationships, especially with Claudia Aldrich, opened doors to critical interviews and information:

  “It’s been really nice to...now have a relationship with Claudia and...she’s connected us to so many different sources that we had on the show.” (21:42, Caitlin Golden)

• Andrea reflects on the challenge of persuading former/current police officers to participate and the gradual breakthrough.

9. Examining Police Culture & Broader Institutional Issues

(21:48–26:45)

• The team discusses the balance between individual “bad apples” and systemic culture:

  “We were really examining, what does a culture do and how does culture affect the behavior of people that are trying to protect your community? And I think that was the larger point of episode six and seven.” (22:19, Andrea Gunning)

• Monique underscores the impact:

  “It just comes down to the fact that if I would call 911 in a crisis, I don't want someone like that showing up. It's a position of power.” (23:59, Monique Laborde)

• Tanner highlights the broader context of institutional betrayal:

  “We’re giving them this view of this very specific department and how the sausage of institutional betrayal is made.” (26:15, Tanner Robbins)

10. Karoline’s Personal Betrayal & Institutional Blindness

(26:45–28:05)

• Monique draws from Dr. Freyd’s interview to illustrate “institutional betrayal”:

  “Dr. Freyd used...the second concussion—the first hit on the head being the betrayal, and then the second hit...the lack of being supported or...believed by an institution when you report...” (27:10, Monique Laborde)

11. Discovering the Importance of Truthfulness in Policing

(28:05–29:45)

• Andrea and Tanner discuss how the season explored the foundational value of honesty within police work:

  “The one main thing that will get you fired as a police officer is not telling the truth is lying...the importance of truthfulness when it comes to law enforcement is so important.” (28:05, Andrea Gunning) “Joel got in trouble for lying to his own department...not for lying to anybody else...They can lie to suspects and the people they’re interrogating.” (29:22, Tanner Robbins)

12. Building Rapport with Karoline & Source Management

(30:32–34:15)

• Carrie details the unique dynamic of joining after Monique had already built rapport with Karoline:

  “When we were out in Colorado and she's like, I love you, but you're not Mo...I'm like a fungus. I will grow on you.” (31:09, Carrie Hartman)

• The team takes pride in developing genuine, lasting relationships with sources, spending extended time together during research trips.

13. Managing Emotional Fallout, Setting Boundaries, and Maintaining Well-Being

(34:15–39:13)

• Team members share their varied ways of coping with the emotional toll:

  “I’m really good at compartmentalizing that stuff...but those instances are few and far between...when I can't, I break out the Chianti.” (35:01, Carrie Hartman) “I started some anxiety medication because I was just, like, getting too paranoid about, you know, like, my own safety.” (36:38, Tanner Robbins) “It is so remarkable that every single day, each of us are talking to people who have been through some of the hardest things...to be a part of helping those people help other people is a huge honor.” (38:26, Caitlin Golden)

• Monique distinguishes the emotional weight during interviews from the more clinical scripting/editing process:

  “The interview, I feel one way, and then once I'm seeing it in a script, I feel a little more clinical about it...But, yeah, the larger point is that...once they're proud to have shared their story...I'm able to focus on that feeling...” (39:13, Monique Laborde)

14. Navigating Reporting Without a Criminal Conviction

(40:52–42:24)

• Andrea reflects on reporting a story where the perpetrator was never legally convicted:

  “Because he wasn't convicted of a crime, we needed to see what was in the public domain...but there was so much documentation, so much reporting...” (41:18, Andrea Gunning)

• The team leaned into available investigation files to ensure accuracy and responsibility.

15. What’s Next: Upcoming Seasons & Teases

(42:24–44:04)

• Betrayal Weekly Season 2 launches August 7th; Monique hints at “incredible episodes...stories unlike anything I’ve ever heard.” (42:24, Monique Laborde)
• Betrayal Season 5 (produced by Caitlin) arrives mid-January and will focus on stories where “the person caring for you turns out to be causing the suffering,” and addresses stories where "the law isn’t on your side." (43:22, Caitlin Golden)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Every episode I get, I want it to be new...Hearing the story for the first time, I thought that would make it...a better experience for me." — Tanner Robbins, 05:21
• “There was one corrupted file...I poked the police department...and then all of a sudden we get it back and it's this insane in-the-moment tape." — Caitlin Golden, 10:00
• "Joel is one of the most complicated characters out of all four seasons...You could know this guy and not know meaning. It feels so close." — Andrea Gunning, 14:31
• “[Dr. Freyd] pioneered the field, coined the term betrayal trauma...betrayal blindness as a concept was pretty mind blowing...” — Monique Laborde, 16:04–16:54
• “We're giving them this view of this very specific department and how the sausage of institutional betrayal is made.” — Tanner Robbins, 26:15
• “The one main thing that will get you fired as a police officer is not telling the truth is lying...the importance of truthfulness...is so important.” — Andrea Gunning, 28:05
• “When we were out in Colorado and she's like, I love you, but you're not Mo...I'm like a fungus. I will grow on you.” — Carrie Hartman, 31:09
• “It is so remarkable...we are talking to people who have been through...the hardest things...and they're...making the choice to help other people.” — Caitlin Golden, 38:26

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Team Introductions: 03:56–04:19
• Tanner’s Blind Approach & Impactful Tape: 04:19–09:54
• Rescuing and Using Critical Audio: 09:54–11:15
• Joel’s Duplicity & Internal Affairs: 12:01–14:31
• Exploring Everyday Betrayals: 14:31–16:04
• Dr. Freyd & Betrayal Trauma: 16:04–17:54
• Expanding to Police Culture: 17:54–20:04
• Building Trust With Whistleblowers: 20:04–21:48
• Culture and Misconduct in CSPD: 21:48–26:45
• Institutional Betrayal (Dr. Freyd’s Metaphor): 26:45–28:05
• Truth & Lying in Policing: 28:05–29:45
• Rapport Challenges with Karoline: 30:32–34:15
• Emotional Impact and Coping: 34:15–39:13
• Reporting Without a Conviction: 40:52–42:24
• Season Teasers: 42:24–44:04

Tone & Style

Throughout, the team is open, reflective, and supportive, sharing both professional insights and personal reactions. There’s humor, candor (e.g., “I’m like a fungus. I will grow on you.”), and a serious undertone about the impact of telling these difficult but important stories. The conversation is respectful, frequently pausing to acknowledge each other’s contributions and the voices of the subjects at the heart of the series.

Summary Takeaway

This episode illuminates the rigor, empathy, and ethical care behind reporting on real-life betrayals, particularly when the story involves trusted institutions and “everyday” people. Listeners are shown how the team built this season—through investigative doggedness, relationship building, emotional resilience, and a commitment to exploring not just the facts of betrayal but its psychological and societal ripples.

For more exclusive content, community discussion, and behind-the-scenes insights, listeners are encouraged to join the Beyond Betrayal Substack.