The Making of Season 5 | BONUS

Summary

Betrayal Weekly – "The Making of Season 5 | BONUS"

Podcast: Betrayal Weekly
Host: Andrea Gunning
Production: iHeartPodcasts | Glass Podcasts
Date: April 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this special bonus episode, host Andrea Gunning convenes the core creative team behind Season 5 of Betrayal Weekly. Together, they reflect on the making of the season centered on Saskia’s harrowing story—one of deep personal betrayal, systemic injustice, and eventual, hard-won healing. Producers, editors, and writers contribute their perspectives, offering a transparent look into their choices, the emotional impact of the material, and what the season has meant to them both personally and professionally.

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Team Introductions & Roles

[03:41-04:23]

• Andrea Gunning: Host & Producer
• Caitlin Golden: Producer
• Carrie Hartman: Producer (previous supervising producer, stepped back this season to produce another show)
• Monique Laborde: Story Editor (last two seasons)
• Matt Dalvicchio: Sound Engineer
• Tanner Robbins: Audio Editor

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How Saskia's Story Became a Season

[04:28-06:13]

• Caitlin Golden shares that she discovered Saskia’s story in the show's inbox. Saskia sent a concise, affecting email in September 2024, outlining her experience of betrayal by her husband, the legal hurdles she faced, and her wish to share her story with the world.

  "I live in Maryland, and I was married to... the man of my dreams. Everyone thought he was smart and kind and successful. Ended up he was doing horrible things to me while I was unconscious, night after night. And broadcasting this to strangers."
  — Saskia, email read by Monique Laborde [05:06]

• Caitlin, Monique, and Carrie were all struck by the gravity and uniqueness of Saskia’s situation, prompting a full-season deep dive rather than a single-episode treatment.

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Deciding to Make this a Full Season

[06:13-07:45]

• Andrea Gunning was particularly moved by the duality in Saskia’s experience—the outward appearance of a "perfect" life against the dark reality of her abuse.

  “The fact that he could watch this person spiral... waking up with black eyes, waking up on the bathroom floor... and to know that you were doing something in the dark that could contribute to that is just so cruel to me.”
  — Andrea Gunning [06:30]

• Carrie Hartman underscores that a learned theme over the seasons is that such perpetrators are consummate actors, performing the role of ideal partners while hiding heinous acts.

  “Perpetrators like Mike, they're actors... it's like a giant fraud.”
  — Carrie Hartman [07:14]

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Dismantling the "Perfect Victim" Myth

[07:45-08:41]

• Andrea aims to challenge the “righteous rape” archetype, using Saskia’s complex story to expose and critique society’s misconceptions about victims and worthiness.

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Legal Revelations and Systemic Failures

[08:41-09:16]

• Caitlin Golden and Matt Dalvicchio express shock that, as late as 2024, Maryland did not legally recognize “raping your wife” as a crime—a revelation that intensified the team’s commitment to telling Saskia’s story.

  “He only gets 18 months in jail, and she says, ‘This was completely legal in my state.’ And I was like, wait, what? How in the world...”
  — Caitlin Golden [08:43] “The fact that that law was on the books at the time was just... it really hit me.”
  — Matt Dalvicchio [08:59]

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Impactful and Shocking Moments

[09:16-10:59]

• Tanner Robbins singles out the perpetrator Mike’s courtroom denial of responsibility as the most shocking moment.

  “A quote from the perpetrator, Mike… he didn't believe in his heart that he raped her... If he was not raping her, what did he think that was?”
  — Tanner Robbins [09:44]

• Andrea and Matt discuss how Mike’s entitlement was both socially reinforced and legally protected, but note that survivor stories like Saskia’s have sparked positive legal changes

  “There is an entitlement... and then there are laws... that embolden and validate that entitlement.”
  — Andrea Gunning [10:24] “These laws are changing... it’s good to see that lawmakers at least are waking up to some of this.”
  — Matt Dalvicchio [10:59]

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On Redemption, Amends, and Responsibility

[14:44-17:00]

• Andrea and Monique contrast true amends with empty gestures, referencing another show Burden of Guilt as an example where the perpetrator genuinely seeks redemption.

  “If there was genuinely an effort that Mike Levengood had made to acknowledge the harm he had done... we can't report a redemption arc because it isn't there, and it's disappointing, honestly.”
  — Monique Laborde [15:56]

• Caitlin Golden discusses the shock of hearing Mike, years later, unable or unwilling to make the connection between his past crimes and his present professional life.

  “It’s like he has had to sever something in his mind in order to move forward with his life, and that's a privilege that Saskia will never be afforded.”
  — Caitlin Golden [17:00]

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Most Memorable Episodes & Satisfying Moments

[18:13-19:21]

• Tanner Robbins chooses the courtroom episodes as his favorite for the real-time, unvarnished confrontation between truth and lies.

  “Hearing the judge see through Mike's lies... it's just so satisfying.”
  — Tanner Robbins [18:20]

• Matt Dalvicchio: “It's always refreshing whenever a judge takes a minute to reprimand somebody who just thinks that he's flying pretty. It feels like a good moment whenever you get to hear a judge say, actually, you're completely wrong.” [18:57]

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Underreported Crimes & Survivor Solidarity

[19:32-22:03]

• Carrie Hartman observes these crimes are “a trend”—taken as isolated incidents but actually underreported and underprosecuted because of shame and public ignorance.

  “It's underreported and it's probably underreported because people are too shame filled to report it.”
  — Carrie Hartman [19:46]

• The importance of survivor solidarity and healing is highlighted in Natalie’s journey. Initially withdrawn, she transformed through participation and connection with other survivors.

  “There was just a brightness in her face that made me incredibly emotional.”
  — Caitlin Golden [20:30]

• Andrea recalls the ongoing process of survivor reclamation and healing, as seen with Stephanie’s case.

  “She couldn't even look in the mirror, and she's just now reclaiming her body, and that's the work that she's done.”
  — Andrea Gunning [22:13]

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The Difficulties and Rewards of the Work

[22:55-23:20]

• Monique reflects that witnessing survivors' healing is an antidote to the heaviness of the stories:

  “The antidote for me is really getting to see the healing and the connections and the progress the survivors are making.”
  — Monique Laborde [22:55]

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Resources & Final Reflections

[23:20-23:58]

• Andrea closes by acknowledging the emotional toll and importance of the team’s work. She emphasizes resources for those affected and thanks the team and listeners for their resilience and engagement.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (w/ Timestamps)

• Monique reading Saskia's email:

  “Ended up he was doing horrible things to me while I was unconscious, night after night. And broadcasting this to strangers on a widespread scale.” [05:06]

• Andrea on cruelty:

  “...to know that you were doing something in the dark that could contribute to that is just so cruel to me.” [06:30]

• Carrie on the “perfect victim” myth:

  “Saskia's story kind of defies that archetype, but it still doesn't change what happened to her.” [07:45]

• Caitlin on legal injustice:

  “He only gets 18 months... and she says this was completely legal in my state.” [08:43]

• Tanner on courtroom shock:

  “Mike is having sex with his unconscious wife. What did he think that he was doing?” [09:44]

• Matt on legal change:

  “...these laws are changing, and I think it’s good to see that lawmakers at least are waking up to some of this.” [10:59]

• Caitlin on perpetrator's denial:

  “He really did not see the connection between what he did to Saskia and what he is doing in his business now.” [17:00]

• Tanner on the courtroom:

  “To hear the person with the power see through it and make the right decision, it’s just so satisfying.” [18:20]

• Carrie on solidarity:

  “You never know when one of our audience members might be waking up in the morning unsure of what happened the night before or feeling odd. And it’s just information and education that it’s okay to question.” [20:05]

• Caitlin on survivor transformation:

  “There was just a brightness in her face that made me incredibly emotional.” [20:30]

• Monique on the healing process:

  “The antidote for me is really getting to see the healing and the connections and the progress the survivors are making.” [22:55]

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Key Takeaways

• Season 5's story was sourced directly from a survivor’s outreach, exemplifying the show’s commitment to amplifying underrepresented, difficult narratives of betrayal.
• The legal system's failures—and recent progress—form a major theme, challenging outdated laws and societal misconceptions.
• Amends and redemption are only meaningful when genuinely pursued by perpetrators—a crucial distinction the production team emphasizes.
• The act of storytelling often catalyzes healing and solidarity among survivors, sometimes showing measurable emotional transformation.
• The production process itself is fraught with emotional labor, but team members draw strength from witnessing participants’ resilience and growth.

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For Listeners

If you or someone you know is affected by sexual violence:

• Visit RAINN.org/betrayal for resources
• Call the National Sexual Assault Hotline: [phone]-HOPE
• Text HOPE to 64673 for confidential support

To share your story or connect:

• Email: [e-mail]
• Instagram: @betrayalpod, @glasspodcasts
• Substack: betrayal.substack.com

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The episode stands as both a reflective post-mortem by the show's creators and an empowering testament to the healing potential of shared narratives—supporting not only survivors like Saskia, but also audience members who see themselves in these stories.

Transcript

[Andrea Gunning]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Monique Laborde]

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[Andrea Gunning]

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[Tanner Robbins]

Hi.

[Matt Dalvicchio]

Hi.

[Andrea Gunning]

We did this last year where after we released season four, we got together and talked about all of our favorite moments, what it was like producing the season, and I thought that it would be kind of fun to do it again. Maybe where we can start is going around and everyone introduce themselves and tell a little bit about how you worked on the show.

[Caitlin Golden]

Yeah, sure. Hi, I'm Caitlin golden and I helped to produce this season.

[Carrie Hartman]

Hi, I'm Carrie Hartman, also a producer.

[Monique Laborde]

I'm Monique Laborde. I'm the story editor on the last two seasons of Betrayal.

[Matt Dalvicchio]

I'm Matt Dalvicchio. I am a sound engineer on Betrayal.

[Tanner Robbins]

And I'm Tana Robbins. I am one of the audio editors.

[Andrea Gunning]

I think a really great place to start is how we found the story in the first place. I think this question goes to Caitlin. Can you tell us a little bit about how this season and how Saskia's story came to be?

[Caitlin Golden]

Yeah. I started at Glass about two years ago as an associate producer when Carrie and Mo were running production on Betrayal. And one of my big jobs was going through the email inbox where people, you know, write in with their thoughts about the show, but also kind of most importantly, they're writing with their own stories of betrayal.

[Monique Laborde]

So Saskia, she sent an email September 2024, which is the same month that Gisele Pellico went to trial for the rape case of her husband. I actually pulled up her initial email. I want to read it. It's pretty short. She said Hello. I live in Maryland, and I was married to. Hold for it, the man of my dreams. Everyone thought he was smart and kind and successful. Ended up he was doing horrible things to me while I was unconscious, night after night. And broadcasting this to strangers on a widespread scale. In between being the perfect husband, father, and stepfather, things only got worse when I found out what he was doing. And we went through a legal battle. Quote, raping your wife, end quote, apparently was not a crime in Maryland. So we had to have police contact tech experts in these camming websites to get the footage for court. I would really like to tell my story. I can so relate to these women that I am watching on your show. Let me know if someone can contact me. I think it would be cathartic for me. Heart emoji. Thank you, Saskia. So, yeah, it's taken a year and a half to get here, where the story's officially out and the season's over, but it's been a real team effort.

[Caitlin Golden]

Dre, I'm curious. When you go back to the moment that you were like, this needs to be a season as opposed to a single episode, is there something that stands out for you, a scene in your mind where you first really remember connecting to the story?

[Andrea Gunning]

I think, for me, the fact that he could watch this person spiral, wake up with black eyes, wake up on the bathroom floor, feel like she is going crazy, feel like she is just now destined to walk the same path as her father who struggled with mental health, and to know that you were doing something in the dark that could contribute to that is just so cruel to me. That's why I thought this was a really good season. Like, the two things that were happening light of day and in the darkness.

[Carrie Hartman]

One thing that we've learned throughout the five seasons of Betrayal is that perpetrators like Mike, they're actors. They're acting out the part of a loving husband or a great stepfather, but they're really actors. And once you accept and understand that, it's easier to see that all of it, it's like a giant fraud.

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah. The other aspect of the story that I just was, like, from an emotional point of view, I think I've always really wanted to dismantle the idea of the perfect victim, because I feel like we just really default to this understanding of righteous rape, that the only person that's worthy of saying, I had this crime of rape done to me is this pristine victim that was plucked off the street and this happened. Daskia's story kind of defies that archetype, but it still doesn't change what happened to her. And so it allowed us to really examine that myth in a really big way, not just through the criminal trial, but really the divorce trial. So for that reason, I feel like that's why I really wanted to make this season.

[Caitlin Golden]

Totally.

[Andrea Gunning]

What about you?

[Caitlin Golden]

I remember in that initial phone call, she's telling the story, and then all of a sudden she gets to the point in her story where he only gets 18 months in jail, and she says, this was completely legal in my state. And I was like, wait, what? How in the world.

[Matt Dalvicchio]

I think that was the thing that surprised me and shocked me the most this season was the fact that that law was on the books at the time was just. It really hit me a little bit because, like, I don't understand how that could even be.

[Andrea Gunning]

Tanner, you knew nothing going into this season about the story and the creative. You're literally getting scripts from Caitlin and learning as you go.

[Tanner Robbins]

Yeah, I usually get the first draft of the episode when it's ready to go into the edit.

[Andrea Gunning]

Can you tell me what it was like working on this season? What moment most surprised you and what do you feel like was the most impactful?

[Tanner Robbins]

What shocked me maybe the most in the story was a quote from the perpetrator, Mike. I think it was during the divorce trial that he didn't believe in his heart that he raped her. Mike is having sex with his unconscious wife. What did he think that he was doing? If he was not raping her, what did he think that was? That was what was most shocking to me, even after admitting to committing this crime, than go to a different court and say the exact opposite.

[Andrea Gunning]

There is an entitlement there that exists in our society. Whether or not he knew what the laws were in Maryland, he already felt entitled to. To her body in a way, however he wanted it. And then there are laws that exist in the state in which he lives with his wife that embolden and validate that entitlement. Those two things, I think, have been interconnected and working for each other since the creation of this country.

[Matt Dalvicchio]

That goes kind of hand in hand to the most impactful thing is that this case and other cases that have come up recently have helped change these laws, and these laws are changing, and I think it's good to see that lawmakers, at least are waking up to some of this.

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[Andrea Gunning]

We often talk about amends. What does amends really look like? Once you've understood that you've done something wrong and you've deeply hurt somebody, you're operating from a place of harm reduction. What can I do to repair, do less harm and own up to my mistakes? And when you look at how things played out in the divorce, someone who understands that they've done something wrong, understands the impact of their behavior and actions towards another person would say, you know what? No fault divorce. Let me make this really easy for you. Let me do as little harm in this process to Saskia. That would be the right thing to do. He did not do that. As much as it is to tell Saskia's story, we are, in a way, telling the Mike Levengood story of what he did to his wife. And I'm a human being. I think about the fact that he's trying to rebuild, but I also think about the fact of, like, what has this person done to restore and help support Saskia?

[Monique Laborde]

This is something Carrie and I have been talking about. So Carrie had produced seasons one through four, and when this season came around, Carrie actually stepped out to produce another show at Glass, Burden of Guilt. And that is a redemption arc story. People should go listen to it. The perpetrator genuinely puts in the work to make amends for something heinous that he did in his past. And that's something Carrie and I have been talking about here with season five of betrayal, with Saskia's story. Because, like, we don't set out to demonize these perpetrators. We set out to report the story. Survivors come to us, write to us, and we work with them. But if there was genuinely an effort that Mike Levengood had made to acknowledge the harm he had done to make amends, you know, and he did plead guilty, like, he had the opportunity to use that to make a statement to her, to not put her through the divorce trial. She did. And like you were saying, Andrea, like, he did not take those opportunities. And so we can't report a redemption arc because it isn't there, and it's disappointing, Honestly.

[Caitlin Golden]

I think the thing that makes this season different in terms of that amends and accountability piece is that we're talking about a perpetrator who has gone on to make an entire career off of his criminal past. And to me, the most shocking tape of the entire season comes at the end of episode nine, where you hear Trey recounting the phone call with Mike Levengood. And I was in the room for that call, so I remember it very well. And Trey gets on the line, tells Mike that we want to tell this story about his business and about his relationship with Saskia Inwood. And the tone in Mike's voice was just so shocking. Like, you could tell he really did not see the connection between what he did to Saskia and what he is doing in his business now. It's like he has had to sever something in his mind in order to move forward with his life, and that's a privilege that Saskia will never be afforded.

[Andrea Gunning]

I'm so curious. This goes to the editors. What is your favorite episode of the season, and why?

[Tanner Robbins]

The courtroom, the criminal trial. Maybe it's just because I love tape in the field. It's one thing to hear somebody tell their story. It's another thing to hear it happening in real time. And hearing the judge see through Mike's lies. You know, when you hear defense attorneys and witnesses saying all these things that you know are not true or are just being spun in this way, and then to hear the person with the power see through it and make the right decision, it's just so satisfying.

[Matt Dalvicchio]

Truthfully, I don't have a favorite episode, but I do second a lot of what you said, Tanner. It's always refreshing whenever a judge takes a minute to reprimand somebody who just thinks that he's flying pretty. It feels like a good moment whenever you get to hear a judge say, actually, you're completely wrong. That was definitely impactful for me too.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah.

[Andrea Gunning]

And sometimes you can have all the evidence, the videos, the photos, and it still may not be enough. But in this case, the judge really saw, and I'm so grateful.

[Caitlin Golden]

Carrie, I was gonna ask you, you know, having worked on this show in every iteration of it, having worked with so many different subjects, what to you really resonated this season?

[Carrie Hartman]

I think we knew even before the Gisele Pellico story came out. This kind of crime is a trend. It's underreported and it's probably underreported because people are too shame filled to report it.

[Caitlin Golden]

Yeah.

[Monique Laborde]

And it's under prosecuted.

[Carrie Hartman]

I really feel good when we are bringing things to the surface that might be uncomfortable or even unrealized by a good portion of the public, because you never know when one of our audience members might be waking up in the morning unsure of what happened the night before or feeling odd. And it's just information and education that it's okay to question.

[Caitlin Golden]

Totally. And, I mean, with the idea that this is a trend for me, one of the most impactful parts of this season was talking to all of these other women who had experienced this crime. We did also include these stories of Natalie, Ember, and Stephanie, and watching the three of them in their progression. And their healing journey has been really impactful too. I mean, Dre and I talk all the time about Natalie in particular. She'd never heard of a story like her own until she heard Stephanie's episodes on Betrayal Weekly. And when I first got on the phone with her, she was incredibly nervous. And over the course of many, many months, we had lots of conversations back and forth about, do you want to tell your story now? Is later down the line a better time? What level of anonymity do we want to use? She eventually felt comfortable. And when we had that roundtable conversation with all of these other survivors, it was like a different woman was in that room. Like, our hope as a show is always that the people that we're working with, we are able to impact their lives in some little way, that by helping them tell their story, we are helping them on their healing journey. But I think that was one of the first times where I, as someone who's really new to this field, saw right before my eyes like, this is someone who's transformed. There was just a brightness in her face that made me incredibly emotional.

[Carrie Hartman]

I mean, that's the thing, is realizing that you're not alone.

[Andrea Gunning]

I felt that way when I was listening to the bonus episode with the case updates.

[Caitlin Golden]

Yeah.

[Andrea Gunning]

And I honestly got choked up listening to Stephanie at the very end. Spoilers. If anyone hasn't listened to that bonus episode, it's an update on Ember, Natalie, and Stephanie. And when Carrie and I first talked to Stephanie, she was wearing baggy clothes. She had chopped off all of her hair. She couldn't even look in the mirror, and she's just now reclaiming her body, and that's the work that she's done. But to see that happen from meeting her two years ago, it's astonishing. To see what she's done and the work that she's put in and how she came out on the other side. It's cool.

[Monique Laborde]

It's really cool when people ask, which they often do. Oh, it must be so hard to work on stories like this. The antidote for me is really getting to see the healing and the connections and the progress the survivors are making. And to see that the telling of their story was helpful in that is actually more impactful for me in the end than the worst part of their story that we hear. Mm.

[Andrea Gunning]

Well, thank you all for your hard work this season. It was a difficult season to produce. It was an emotional one to produce. And, you know, we deal with really tough subject matter. But I'm really proud of the season and I'm proud of everyone's work on it and so thank you. For resources on sexual violence, visit rainnn.org betrayal that's R A I N N.org betrayal. You can also get free confidential 24. 7 support through RAINN's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656, hope you are not alone. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team or want to tell us your story, email [e-mail] that is betrayalpodmail.com or follow us on Instagram etrayalpod to access additional content and to connect with with the Betrayal community. Join our [e-mail] we're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart podcast. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Kaitlin Golden. Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Olivia Hewitt and Leah Jablo. Production management by Kristen Melchiori. Additional support by Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krynczyk. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins with additional editing and mixing by Matt d'. Alvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, her friends and family and special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie Lieberman. The Trail's Theme is composed by Oliver Baines Music Library, provided by MyB Music and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Aval Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Andrea Gunning]

OK Storytime this summer. Find your next obsession on Prime Video and listen. We're not saying you need another obsession, but there could be a lot worse ones. Steamy romance, addictive love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice, so why not watch them a third time? Off campus, the Love Hypothesis and more Slow burns, second chances chemistry you can feel through the screen and it makes you wish you were actually in that movie. We've got Binge worthy series can't miss

[Monique Laborde]

movies perfect for when you're ignoring your

[Andrea Gunning]

own problems or procrastinating as one does. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime.

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[Andrea Gunning]

Guaranteed human.