Rehabilitation | EP 9 | Saskia's Story

Summary

Betrayal Weekly – "Rehabilitation: Saskia’s Story" (EP 9)

Original Air Date: March 26, 2026
Host: Andrea Gunning
Podcast Network: iHeartPodcasts | Glass Podcasts

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Overview

This episode delves into the controversial world of prison consulting through the story of Saskia, whose ex-husband, Mike Levengood—a convicted rapist—reinvented himself post-incarceration as a prison consultant. Through detailed reporting, first-hand accounts, expert interviews, and powerful victim testimony, host Andrea Gunning unpacks the ethics, legality, and emotional toll behind people with serious criminal records profiting from their crimes by advising others facing prison. The narrative widens to include Mike’s business partner, Gary Smith, a former Army Ranger convicted in connection with a friend's death, raising profound questions about justice, rehabilitation, and whose interests are prioritized in the aftermath of devastating crimes.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Financial Aftermath for Victims

• Saskia’s Experience:
  • Her ex-husband’s crime left her with deep emotional scars and severe financial hardship as she navigated a costly divorce and legal battle. [05:21]
  • Quote:

    "I'd always learned you never touch your 401k... and I had to kind of throw that out the window to fight this. I remember the first withdrawal I made was for $60,000 and that was just for attorneys bills up to that point." – Saskia [05:21]

  • The total divorce cost: around $100,000—a financial hole she's still climbing out of. [05:43]

2. Mike Levengood’s Post-Prison Reinvention

• Background:
  • Mike was a high-earning vice president of marketing at Bank of America, earning up to $250,000 a year before his conviction. He had an impeccable professional image—even colleagues defended his character at sentencing. [06:26–07:03]
  • Quote from a recommendation:

    "He’s not only a tremendous professional, he’s also a person of integrity, kindness, and old school values." – LinkedIn recommendation, read by producer Trey Morgan [06:57]

• Business Pivot:
  • Mike formed a consulting LLC while still incarcerated, intending to leverage his corporate background to mask his record from potential clients. [08:06–08:22]
  • Upon release in 2021, he shifted to a new venture: Smith and Good Associates, focusing on prison consulting. [08:22]

3. What Do Prison Consultants Do?

• Industry Overview:
  • Prison consultants (often former inmates) advise clients facing prison on navigating their sentence, prison life, and post-release challenges.
  • John Fuller, a veteran consultant, describes his work:

    "I prepare my clients on things that they should do before incarceration, ways they should behave during incarceration, and any assistance or the reality of their circumstances post incarceration." [09:57]

  • Services range from sentencing guidance, remorse letter drafting, “mock trials,” and (sometimes controversially) advice on how to qualify for sentence reduction programs. [10:16–12:14]
  • Fuller on industry scams:

    "What 90% of these other prison consultants are doing, they’ll make promises and tell you that they can save your life." [10:52] "These prison consultants are literally stealing money from people saying, you’re not going to do any time, but if you don’t pay me this $10, $15, $20, $25,000 within the next 36 hours, I can’t help you. And the client is so scared that he’s going to do it." [12:29]

4. The Ethics of Ex-Offenders Profiting from Crime

• Mike and business partner Gary Smith built their firm Smith and Good Associates on their own criminal justice experience. The firm offers a polished online presence and legal links to their former defense attorneys. [31:22]
• There is no oversight or certification in the prison consulting industry—anyone, regardless of their background, can claim to be an expert. [33:31–34:01]
• Trey Morgan (producer) on lack of oversight:

  "Almost every other industry that deals with our criminal justice system has some sort of licensing and some sort of board that establishes rules and guidelines. But for some reason, we have decided that this one doesn’t need oversight." [34:01]

• Mike started his firm immediately after release—a move that contradicts best-practices suggesting offenders limit post-release contact with other offenders, especially if still on probation. [34:23–35:03]

5. Gary Smith's Story: Layers of Legal Ambiguity

• Gary Smith, an Army Ranger, was convicted (via Alford plea) after his roommate and fellow soldier, Michael McQueen, was found dead with a gunshot wound.
• Gary told three different stories to police, none of which aligned with forensic evidence—his legal outcome ultimately was a conviction for reckless endangerment, not murder. [20:40–24:31]
• After release, Gary was quickly employed by his defense attorney’s firm and became Mike’s business partner. [26:00–27:10]

6. Victim Impact and Societal Priorities

• Andrea Gunning:

  "We spend so much energy caring for perpetrators of these crimes. And as a culture, we don’t give the same safeguards to victims." [35:03]

• Trey Morgan:

  "I hate to say it, but in a lot of ways, we are an offender first society. Post conviction, our focus turns to the convicted to say, okay, well, they’re serving their time, they’re getting their life back together, and we start forgetting about the actual victim." [36:07]

• Saskia only learned about Mike’s business through the podcast’s reporting. Her reaction:

  "I can't say that I was really surprised, but I just thought it was really a low, shameful thing to do. He's not helping victims or not helping rehabilitate people, and instead of making something good out of it, he decides to capitalize on it. He's, like, basically laughing at everything that he put me through." – Saskia [37:19]

7. Final Reflections on Accountability and Healing

• Victim’s Ongoing Pain:

  "I’ll never be the same. I’ll never be able to assume that because I’m a good person that I’ll get treated as one." – Saskia [39:01]

• Saskia underscores Mike’s lack of remorse or meaningful accountability. [39:21, 39:45]
• Mike’s response when contacted for comment:

  "What does my business have to do with my personal life? What does my business have to do with Saskia?" [40:53]

• Andrea and Trey are left to grapple with the moral disconnect between the perpetrators' ability to move on and profit, and Saskia's and McQueen’s loved ones' enduring losses.

---

Notable Quotes

• Saskia [05:21]:

  "I had to kind of throw [my financial safety] out the window to fight this..."

• Prison Consultant John Fuller [10:52]:

  "What 90% of these other prison consultants are doing, they’ll make promises and tell you that they can save your life."

• Producer Trey Morgan [34:01]:

  "But for some reason, we have decided that this [industry] doesn’t need oversight."

• Andrea Gunning [35:03]:

  "We spend so much energy caring for perpetrators of these crimes... we don’t give the same safeguards to victims."

• Michael McQueen’s Mother [38:20]:

  "There must be concern for victims and for my son, who under no reason was murdered and killed by someone who he considered a friend..."

• Saskia [37:19]:

  "He's not helping victims... he decides to capitalize on it. He's, like, basically laughing at everything that he put me through."

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Saskia recounts financial destruction: [05:21–05:43]
• Exploring Mike’s high-profile career and post-prison plans: [06:26–08:22]
• John Fuller explains the prison consulting industry: [09:10–10:52]
• Unethical practices and scams in consulting: [10:52–12:29]
• Gary Smith’s legal history and narrative shifts: [20:40–24:31]
• Victim-first vs. Offender-first society discussion: [35:03–36:26]
• Saskia’s discovery of Mike’s new business: [37:10–37:42]
• Mother of Michael McQueen’s victim impact statement: [38:20–38:53]
• Saskia on loss of trust and recovery: [42:00–42:29]

---

Memorable Moments

• Mike starts a consulting business directly based on his crime, without ever making amends to his victim—who is shocked to discover his new line of work through the podcast’s investigation.

• Gary Smith’s circuitous route from Army hero, to homicide defendant, to law clerk and partner in a consulting firm—despite overwhelming ambiguities about the evidence against him.

• The episode closes with a focus on victim experience, not just statistics, and a reminder of the profound, lifelong impact of violent crime.

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Conclusion

"Rehabilitation: Saskia’s Story" takes listeners beyond the legal files into the grey area where those with criminal pasts build new careers from the wreckage they helped cause. The episode challenges listeners to weigh the concepts of justice, rehabilitation, and accountability—questioning societal priorities and the adequacy of support for victims versus perpetrators. This deep dive leaves listeners grappling with the morality of who benefits from a system built on betrayal, and what true rehabilitation should look like.

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For resources on sexual violence and support, visit RAINN.org/betrayal.

Transcript

[Andrea Gunning]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Andrea Gunning]

Hi everyone. Andrea here. I have some exciting news to share. ABC has turned Betrayal Weekly into an eight episode anthology, which means each episode features one of your favorite Betrayal Weekly stories. You'll get to see the people involved, hear from people who have never spoken before, and actually see where the story took place. We are so proud and excited to share it with you all. It's called Betrayal, Secrets and Lies and you can watch it every Sunday at 10pm Eastern Standard Time, 9pm Central. Please check it out. There is a corner of the criminal justice system that you won't find on court documents. It doesn't involve judges, prosecutors, juries. It doesn't even involve laws really. It's called prison consulting. You might have heard about it on the news. Harvey Weinstein is preparing for prison. He recently hired a consultant who is helping guide him on what to expect.

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Bernie Madoff has hired a prison consultant.

[Andrea Gunning]

Actress Lori Loughlin has reportedly hired a prison consultant. Luigi Mangione. Martha Stewart NFL player Michael Vick has hired a priority prison consultant. Will his new prison consultant tip the

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scales in his case?

[Andrea Gunning]

Prison consultants assist people who are facing time. Many of these consultants promote their services on YouTube and TikTok. Have you been indicted? Are you thinking be indicted?

[Inner Balance Sponsor Female Voice]

You need someone who speaks inmates and institutions.

[Prison Consultant or Legal Commentator]

So if you or a loved one has been recently arrested, you can go

[911 Operator or Court Narrator]

ahead and text me.

[Prison Consultant or Legal Commentator]

I'll be happy to help you in any way I can.

[Andrea Gunning]

For the right price. Prison consultants will advise those facing time on how to get a lesser sentence or how to get out of jail early. They'll tell you what programs to join and what gangs to avoid. Many of these consultants have served time themselves, often for financial crimes or nonviolent offenses. But what if the person giving out that advice was a convicted rapist? What if they were someone like Mike Levengood? I'm Andrea Gunning and this is betrayal. Season 5, Episode 9 Rehabilitation for Saskia, this crime didn't just take an emotional toll. It devastated her financially, especially when it came to paying for her divorce.

[Saskia or Victim Interviewee]

I'd always learned you Never touch your 401k like you always need 3 months of bills in the bank just in case of a rainy day. And I'd always lived by that. And I had to kind of throw that out the window to fight this. I remember the first withdrawal I made was for $60,000 and that was just for attorneys bills up to that point.

[Andrea Gunning]

In the end, the divorce cost her about $100,000. It's a financial hole she's still crawling out of. All of this got us thinking about Mike's financial status, how he's doing today after this crime. So we did some digging and what we found. Surprised? By early 2021, Mike had served his sentence. He was released from jail and put on probation. One of the many standard conditions of probation is getting a job. And for Mike, that wouldn't be easy. Not only because of his conviction, but because of his resume.

[Saskia or Victim Interviewee]

He was very smart. He had a master's degree. He was working as vice president of marketing for bank of America. So, I mean, he made a good salary.

[Andrea Gunning]

It was more than a good salary. Before his conviction, he was making between 200 and $250,000 a year. He was an executive and a good one. If you look at his LinkedIn recommendations, he was well liked and respected. One recommendation reads, he's not only a

[Producer Trey Morgan]

tremendous professional, he's also a person of integrity, kindness and old school values.

[Andrea Gunning]

While another says, Mike is a top notch professional and a pleasure to work with. Even during his sentencing hearing and after pleading guilty to second degree rape, a former colleague showed up to defend him. As long as I've known Mike, he's really always been an outstanding character. Helped people grow, mentoring, providing kindness and and goodwill towards people. Mike's just a gentle soul. It's one of the hardest things to wrap your head around. The fact that someone can commit a disturbing personal crime and people will still line up to call them kind and gentle. Most sex offenders struggle to find any work after they get out. When they do, it's usually construction, waste management or warehouse gigs. But Mike had a plan. In fact, he had it before he went to jail. During his sentencing Hearing back in 2019, his lawyer shared that plan with the judge.

[Prison Consultant or Legal Commentator]

He started an LLC so that he can provide consulting to businesses using the information and knowledge that he had from his career. And hopefully not let the record be an impediment to some companies hiring him because he can use the llc.

[Andrea Gunning]

He'd use his expertise in banking and marketing to support himself financially. And by running that business through an LLC, his clients could work with him without the bad PR. Then in February of 2021, Mike got out of jail and a month later, he filed a trade name application for a new company. But this company wasn't a business consulting firm. It was Smith and Good Associates. According to their legal business filing, Smith and Good is a consulting firm for individuals in the criminal justice system, which is just another way of saying prison consultants. We wanted to learn what this industry was all about. So we called up an expert.

[John Fuller (Prison Consultant)]

My name is John Fuller. I started my prison consulting business in 2004.

[Andrea Gunning]

Like a lot of prison consultants, John has a criminal past.

[John Fuller (Prison Consultant)]

I would sense the 10 years for conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute.

[Andrea Gunning]

He did time for drug and forgery charges. But since prison, John's built quite the career for himself.

[John Fuller (Prison Consultant)]

I work primarily with white collar criminals, professional athletes, entertainers, mostly high profile individuals.

[Andrea Gunning]

Multiple outlets say he coached Martha Stewart when she was heading to prison. He didn't comment on that. But no matter the client, his job is essentially the same.

[John Fuller (Prison Consultant)]

I prepare my clients on things that they should do before incarceration, ways they should behave during incarceration, and any assistance or the reality of their circumstances post incarceration.

[Andrea Gunning]

Every prison consultant offers different services. Some explain sentencing guidelines or strategize on getting their clients lesser sentences. They facilitate mock trials and in some cases, assist in writing remorse letters to victims. Others focus on eliminating the unknowns of prison. What the food, the beds, the fellow inmates might be like. And they also explain those unknowns to family members who are scared for their loved one. But John is the first to admit there are a lot of unethical people in his industry.

[John Fuller (Prison Consultant)]

What 90% of these other prison consultants are doing, they'll make promises and tell you that they can save your life.

[Andrea Gunning]

In our reporting, we spoke to several prison consultants. Every one of them had something to say about the others. But John brought up a lot of interesting examples of how other consultants will say they can game the system to their clients advantage.

[John Fuller (Prison Consultant)]

For instance, they'll lie and charge you 15, $20,000 until you, as soon as you get to the prison, they can get them in a residential drug and alcohol program.

[Andrea Gunning]

You might be wondering, why would anyone who doesn't use drugs or alcohol pay $20,000 for addiction treatment? Well, John says it can be part of a larger strategy because if you

[John Fuller (Prison Consultant)]

can get into the residential drug and alcohol program, you can get 18 months to three years off your sentence. So of course they're gonna go that route. And this wise guy of a prison consultant says, we're gonna lie and you're gonna tell your probation officer that you do use drugs, you do use alcohol. As a matter of fact, go report next week with the smell of alcohol on your breath. And that's what's going to qualify you for the residential drug and alcohol program.

[Andrea Gunning]

A few years ago, a prison consultant pled guilty to conspiring to defraud the federal bureau of prisons for running that exact scam. But John says that's not the only scam people in his industry are operating.

[John Fuller (Prison Consultant)]

These prison consultants are literally stealing money from people saying, you're not going to do any time, but if you don't pay me this 10, 15, 20, $25,000 within the next 36 hours, I can't help you. And the client is so scared that he's going to do it.

[Andrea Gunning]

Mike declined our request for comment. So we don't know how much Smith and Goode charges or the specific strategies they use, but on their website they do advertise a wide variety of services. They support clients in mitigating their sentences and prepping for their time behind bars. They also provide guidance on parole hearings and sex offender registry requirements. But there's one line that stands out to me on the Smith and Good homepage. I had my producer Trey read it.

[Producer Trey Morgan]

We emphasize the importance of rehabilitation, how to do this safely at the Department of Corrections, and what loved ones can do to support rehabilitative efforts. It all starts with a plan.

[Andrea Gunning]

It's not for us to say whether Mike was rehabilitated while behind bars, but we can say that Mike had a plan for himself. Very soon after Mike got out of jail, he had a business name, address and tax ID number. And on top of that, he found himself a business partner. His associate is a former Army Ranger with a criminal past of his own. But unlike Mike, he wasn't a sex offender. He was charged with murder and when questioned by detectives, his story changed three times.

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[John Fuller (Prison Consultant)]

Foreign.

[Andrea Gunning]

Saskia's ex husband, Mike Levengood, started a prison consulting firm, Smith and Good Associates. He was the Good in the business name, as in Levengood and the Smith was Gary James Smith. Gary has experience with the system, too, but his journey is a lot more complicated. We're going to take a detour into Gary's story because it brings up some very important questions about the kind of business Mike is operating. In 2006, Gary was a young veteran, an Army Ranger, fresh out of the military. As a judge said of him at

[911 Operator or Court Narrator]

trial, there are many examples in Mr. Smith's life where he was a good person. He was a mentor to young soldiers. He was promoted to the rank of sergeant fairly quickly, which is no easy task. He was assigned to a very responsible unit with a very Important job in the defense of this country. But when good people do bad things, they have to be held accountable. He made a horribly bad decision. And in making that decision, it cost the life of another young man.

[Andrea Gunning]

That young man was 22 year old Michael McQueen. He was also an Army Ranger, an intelligence analyst. He and Gary served several tours together in Afghanistan. When they came back to the U.S. they moved in together. McQueen's friends and family said he was excited to be home. He had plans to go to college, then law school, become a sports agent. But then, in the early morning hours of September 26, 2006, Michael McQueen was found dead. He had a gunshot wound to the head. His roommate, Gary Smith, was the one to call 911. You're about to hear that call. In it, Gary is distraught. The 911 operator could barely understand him. If you'd like, you can skip ahead 30 seconds. What's the problem there? When the cops arrived, Gary remained inconsolable. He insisted he had nothing to do with McQueen's death. But the police, they didn't buy it because Gary was covered in McQueen's blood. And that wasn't all. Here's the prosecutor at trial.

[Prison Consultant or Legal Commentator]

He's outside at this point, over the top, uncontrollably crying. But then one of the officers, one of the sergeants said, I noticed he was crying loudly, but there were no tears coming.

[Andrea Gunning]

And each time the authorities pressed Gary, he changed his story. During the investigation, he gave three very different versions of what happened that night. Story number one came the first time the police asked Gary what happened. He said he wasn't even home at the time of McQueen's death. They'd been out drinking and Gary dropped McQueen at their apartment before running out for a quick errand. Here's Gary on the police interrogation tapes.

[Gary Smith (Army Ranger, Defendant)]

He went upstairs. I said, I'm gonna go pick up some clean socks. I drove over to my mother's house, grabbed a laundry basket full of clothes, put them in my car, turned around and went back to the house. I went upstairs and opened the door. I saw Mike sitting in the chair and I saw blood all over the place.

[Andrea Gunning]

Maybe it was a suicide or maybe someone killed McQueen. Gary offered a few possible theories of who could have done it. Some neighbors McQueen had argued with, or maybe a drug dealer in the building. Gary said when he found McQueen, there were no weapons nearby. He kept all of his guns at his mom's house. But later he told officers something very different. Here's story number two.

[Gary Smith (Army Ranger, Defendant)]

I came home, Mike was dead. My gun was in his hand.

[Andrea Gunning]

It was Gary's gun. He knew his fingerprints would be all over it. And he panicked, grabbed the gun.

[Gary Smith (Army Ranger, Defendant)]

After I realized he was dead, I put it in my pocket. I got back in my car. I drove to lake neighborhood. I threw it underneath the bridge. I got back in my car. I drove back to the house.

[Andrea Gunning]

Gary confessed that before calling 911, he took the time to get rid of the weapon. He said he threw the gun in a lake.

[Gary Smith (Army Ranger, Defendant)]

I was so scared. He was dead. He was dead, and it was my fault. I left that gun there.

[911 Operator or Court Narrator]

It was my gun.

[Gary Smith (Army Ranger, Defendant)]

I didn't lock it up.

[Andrea Gunning]

Now Gary was suddenly sure this had to be a suicide. And then there was story number three, also a suicide. But in this third account, Gary didn't come home to find McQueen dead. He was in the apartment when McQueen fired the gun. The prosecutor summarized this version for the court.

[Prison Consultant or Legal Commentator]

As he comes in, he put the gun on the floor. He was back in the bathroom. He came out, and Mike killed himself. And then even in story three, he gives different versions of that. Put a table. I was here. I did see it. I didn't see it. I might have been close. I might not have been close.

[Andrea Gunning]

Three different stories and one dead man. And with each version, Gary moved a little closer to the scene. From nowhere near the apartment and no gun in sight, to finding the gun and throwing it in a lake, to being inside the apartment when his friend died. The problem with all three versions, none of them clearly lined up with the forensic evidence. And the interpretation of that evidence was heavily debated by both the prosecution and the defense. There was no confession, no eyewitness testimony. There was only this evidence in Gary Smith's word. And it's important to say here, Gary Smith is white. Michael McQueen was black. After nine years of proceedings and two separate appeals, Gary Smith finally entered what's known as an Alford plea.

[Max Frizzolone (Defense Attorney)]

An Alford plea is essentially a guilty plea, where you say that, I'm not saying that I did it, but I acknowledge that there's sufficient evidence in order to find me guilty.

[Andrea Gunning]

That's Max Frizzolone, a defense attorney in Maryland and the founder of Friswood's Criminal Defense.

[Max Frizzolone (Defense Attorney)]

So you have somebody who spent years in jail. The state has put on multiple criminal trials, subpoenaed numerous witnesses who have testified multiple times under oath. And so sort of the whole entire goal of an Alford plea is that the person's found guilty, but the person themselves doesn't have to say it. But ultimately, it is a conviction.

[Andrea Gunning]

An Alford plea is a compromise. The state still gets a conviction, but the defendant gets the ability to maintain their innocence. Plus, as part of the plea, Gary's legal team negotiated his charges down significantly. What was once a murder charge was now reckless endangerment. And he got sentenced to time served. In the end, Gary Smith served just six years behind bars. We reached out to Gary for comment, but he didn't respond to our call. The same goes for Michael McQueen's family. When Gary Smith was released, he also quickly got a job. He went to work for the very law firm that had defended him. He's even used in the firm's promotional materials.

[Gary Smith (Law Clerk Introduction)]

Hi, I'm Gary. I'm a law clerk here at the office of Jessica Moise. I served six years in prison. Before that I was an army ranger. If you or a loved one who's been charged with a crime, please get our office offices a call and we'd love to help you.

[Andrew Jezek (Lawyer)]

And now I'm happy to say that Gary works for me full time as a law clerk on all my homicide cases and my serious felony cases.

[Andrea Gunning]

That's Andrew Jezek, Gary's boss, speaking on his firm's YouTube channel.

[Andrew Jezek (Lawyer)]

I'm proud of him. And I think we were able to show in the end that Gary was innocent and that Gary deserved to get every break that he could. And now he's married, he's got a child, he's my law clerk. He's going to go to law school, and he's hopefully going to be my partner one day.

[Andrea Gunning]

If that voice sounds familiar, it's because you've heard it before.

[Andrew Jezek (Lawyer)]

Every saint has a past and every

[Andrea Gunning]

sinner has a future.

[Andrew Jezek (Lawyer)]

And Mike, the great parts of him

[Andrea Gunning]

will continue and dominate for the rest of his life. Andrew Jessic was also Mike Levingood's defense attorney. He also didn't return our call. In many ways, Gary and Mike had a lot in common. Both of their cases ended in a mess of legal technicalities and they were both convicted. But they each maintained their innocence in spite of the judge's ruling. It's no wonder then that these two became partners, that they came together to help other people like them. On the Smith and good site, they invite people to reach out and give them a call.

[Producer Trey Morgan]

So I called him up and surprisingly answered.

[Andrea Gunning]

Foreign.

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[Andrea Gunning]

By 2021, both Mike Levengood and Gary James Smith had served their sentences, and together they launched. Smith and Good Associates built on their experiences with and contacts within the criminal justice system. On the surface, their business is like any other consulting firm. They've got clean headshots and a polished website with a promise to help guide clients through a confusing system. But behind the branding, there's a convicted rapist and a man convicted in connection with the death of his friend, and both are charging money to consult criminal defendants. We've confirmed through legal documents that the firm's been employed by Jezik and Moise, the criminal defense firm Mike and Gary both used. On one hand, all of this is perfectly legal. Gary and Mike served their sentences, and there's nothing stopping them from creating a business like this. In fact, in the eyes of the justice system, it might even be a good thing.

[Max Frizzolone (Defense Attorney)]

At some point, you do have to earn enough money to comply with probation, right?

[Andrea Gunning]

That's Max Frizzolone, the lawyer you heard from earlier. He's referring to something we discussed at the top of the episode, that ex cons are required to hold down a job as part of the terms of their probation.

[Max Frizzolone (Defense Attorney)]

For a lot of people who have been convicted of crimes, especially crimes of violence, sexual offenses, traditional employment might be impossible. You know, you're unlikely to get through a background check if you have a prior violent felony or, you know, you're a sex offender. So you might have to get creative about how to keep making money.

[Andrea Gunning]

And making money doesn't just benefit the offender. It benefits their families, who often suffer from the lack of income that comes with their relatives incarceration. But the idea that ex cons are now profiting from that past raises a lot of moral, ethical, and legal questions.

[Producer Trey Morgan]

One of the pitfalls and problems with the industry is your qualification for this job is the fact that you committed a crime.

[Andrea Gunning]

That's Tray Morgan, one of my producers. He's been reporting on crime for eight years now, and he did a lot of the investigation for this episode. One of the biggest problems he sees with this industry is that there's no certification process to become A prison consultant.

[Producer Trey Morgan]

I mean, almost every other industry that deals with our criminal justice system has some sort of licensing and some sort of board that establishes rules and guidelines. But for some reason, we have decided that this one doesn't need oversight.

[Andrea Gunning]

A lot of these crimes are about control, and being a consultant puts you in a position of power. And then there's the concern of people like Mike getting close with fellow criminals. Remember, Mike started this business immediately after getting out.

[Producer Trey Morgan]

For sex offenders like Mike and violent offenders like Gary, the Maryland Department of Public Safety and Correctional Services, they encourage limiting contact with other offenders. And the goal there is really. I mean, it's common sense to reduce the risk of reoffending, especially right when you get out of jail or prison.

[Andrea Gunning]

Mike and Gary working together likely goes against that advice. So would Mike consulting other convicted felons while he was still on probation. Maybe there's a world where I could get past all of that. Mike and Gary did serve their time. They're technically free to do whatever they want to do and make money in most ways you could think of. But there's one thing I keep coming back to. What does this business mean for people like Michael McQueen and for Saskia? I talked to Trey about it. You know, I keep thinking about the fact that there's this entire industry built around helping criminal defendants, attending to their fears, their anxieties, their difficulties. When there's someone like Saskia who has spent years fighting to get the property care she needs, I just feel like we spend so much energy caring for perpetrators of these crimes. And as a culture, we don't give the same safeguards to victims.

[Producer Trey Morgan]

I hate to say it, but in a lot of ways, we are an offender first society. Post conviction, our focus turns to the convicted to say, okay, well, they're serving their time, they're getting their life back together, and we start forgetting about the actual victim.

[Andrea Gunning]

When you go to Smith and Good's website, you see a lot about Mike and Gary's accolades. How Mike was a business exec at Fortune 500 companies and how Gary was an intelligence specialist in Afghanistan. Nowhere on the website do they make any acknowledgment of the details of the crimes they've been convicted of and the victims whose lives they've altered for forever.

[Producer Trey Morgan]

And I couldn't imagine what it would be like for Saskia to first learn that her perpetrator is selling the experience that he gained from what he did to her. I just can't imagine.

[Andrea Gunning]

Saskia had no idea about Mike's business. She only found out about it from us. Once we started investigating for the podcast,

[Saskia or Victim Interviewee]

I can't say that I was really surprised, but I just thought it was really a low, shameful thing to do. He's not helping victims or not helping rehabilitate people, and instead of making something good out of it, he decides to capitalize on it. He's, like, basically laughing at everything that he put me through.

[Andrea Gunning]

As for Michael McQueen, he will never know what Gary went on to do. He was long dead by the time Smith and Goode began. But Those who loved McQueen, his family, his friends, those he served with overseas, remain. As we said earlier, we tried contacting his mother for comment. She never replied to our messages. We do have audio from Gary's final sentencing hearing in 2015, when McQueen's mother got up to give a victim impact statement, and we'd like to share what she had to say.

[Michael McQueen's Mother]

There must be concern for victims and for my son, who under no reason was murdered and killed by someone who he considered a friend. Whether or not is called one thing, whether or not it's called manslaughter, it is still murder. He killed an innocent young man who had everything to look forward to. And so I asked myself, where is the fairness for my son? Where is the fairness for him?

[Andrea Gunning]

Mike and Gary get to move on. Victims live with these crimes forever.

[Saskia or Victim Interviewee]

I'll never be the same. I'll never be able to assume that because I'm a good person that I'll get treated as one.

[Andrea Gunning]

It would be one thing for Mike to start a business like this if he'd made amends with Saskia, if he

[Saskia or Victim Interviewee]

would have said, I'm a sex addict and I will do anything I can to show you that I'm sorry. If he would have done anything in

[Andrea Gunning]

good faith, then maybe Saskia would feel differently about all of it. But if his actions in the divorce trial are any indication, Mike's not trying to minimize harm.

[Saskia or Victim Interviewee]

There was no regret, no accountability taken immediately right away. The only thing he cared about was saving his face.

[Andrea Gunning]

This question of accountability is one that comes up in many of our stories. But it's rare that we have a case where the perpetrator has built a career around his conviction and incarceration, which is one of the reasons we wanted to call Mike, to ask him about this ourselves.

[Producer Trey Morgan]

So Trey rang him up, and surprisingly, he answered. I don't know what I imagined after listening to all the court audio and all of that, but he just sounded like a normal guy. You know, I introduced myself. I'm Trey. I'm a producer. We're doing a story about Saskia Inwood and wanted to talk to you about your business. And he paused for a second.

[Andrea Gunning]

And then Mike started asking Trey questions. Questions like, so you're a reporter. What's the angle of the story?

[Producer Trey Morgan]

And then he said something to the effect of, what does my business have to do with my personal life? What does my business have to do with Saskia? His business is a result of serving time, and he served that time because of his relationship to Saskia.

[Andrea Gunning]

Trey laid this out for Mike, but at this point, Mike was done talking. He said he didn't want to comment on his business, his criminal trial, or his divorce case. So they ended the call. Afterwards, Trey sat there, frozen for a while, processing Mike's questions. What's the story here? What do his crimes, his personal life have to do with his business?

[Producer Trey Morgan]

When he said that, I was caught off guard. Like, how do you answer that?

[Andrea Gunning]

On the final episode of Betrayal Season five, we turn back to Saskia and her healing journey.

[Saskia or Victim Interviewee]

I don't think that I can ever trust anybody. I don't think that I could ever fully be confident that someone wasn't misleading me or manipulating me because I was so sure that he was a good person and that he loved me. How can I ever get to the point where I truly don't fear that?

[Andrea Gunning]

Foreign. For resources on sexual violence, visit rainn.org betrayal that's R A I N N.org betrayal. You can also get free confidential 24. 7 support through RAINN's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656 Hope you are not alone. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team or want to tell us your story, email [e-mail] that is betrayalpodmail.com or follow us on Instagram etrayalpod to access additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community. Join our [e-mail] substack.com we're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Trey Morgan and Kaitlyn Golden. Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Olivia Hewitt and Leah Jablo. Production management by Kristen Melchiori Additional support by Curry Richmond Voice acting by Stephanie Young and Tanner Robbins. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krynczyk. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins with additional editing and mixing by Matt d'. Alvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, her friends and family and special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie Lieberman. Betrayal's Theme is composed by Oliver Baines Music Library provided by MyB Music and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Andrea Gunning]

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