Lori | Betrayal Weekly

Summary

Betrayal Weekly: Lori | Detailed Episode Summary

Podcast: Betrayal Weekly
Host: Andrea Gunning
Guest: Lori Orr
Date: December 25, 2025
Main Theme:
This episode of Betrayal Weekly features Lori Orr, daughter of John Orr, the infamous Los Angeles arson investigator ultimately revealed to be one of the most prolific serial arsonists in American history. Andrea and Lori chronicle Lori’s journey from believing her father was a heroic firefighter to confronting the reality of his horrific crimes, exploring themes of trust, denial, manipulation, and the unmaking of a family identity.

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1. Introduction & Lori’s Early Life

[03:08-05:20]

• Lori grew up in Eagle Rock, Los Angeles, the second daughter of Jodi and John Orr.
• After her parents’ divorce, Lori and her sister lived with their mother and abusive stepfather Jerry; weekends with their biological dad John were a safe haven.
• John was a devoted but emotionally reserved father who worked as a firefighter, later becoming a highly respected arson investigator—a source of pride for his daughters.

“With dad, it was just about having fun, and I didn’t see anything even close to anger with him.” —Lori Orr [08:39]

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2. Idolizing a Heroic Father

[05:41-09:05]

• John was famed for saving lives and was regularly in the news as a local hero. Lori and her sister often boasted about him at school.
• He rose through fire department ranks to fire captain and then arson investigator—a “dream job” that combined elements of firefighting and detective work.
• One vivid memory: John using his authority as an arson investigator to pull someone over, instructing the girls to hide under the dash with him carrying a gun.

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3. Family Challenges & Estrangement

[09:05-11:33]

• Lori’s home life with Jerry was turbulent; her mother failed to protect them, leading to long-term resentment.
• Despite supporting them materially (e.g., first car), John’s remarriages and growing distance affected Lori and her sister.
• Lori worked multiple jobs to gain independence and minimize time at home, dreaming only of a steady career in human resources.

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4. The Arrest: Shock and Denial

[11:33-14:14]

• While at her boyfriend’s house, Lori saw her father’s arrest for arson broadcast live on TV.
• In disbelief, Lori assumed it was a misunderstanding—John’s wife Wanda insisted another fireman was guilty and everything would be fine.
• John was put on house arrest awaiting trial; the family rallied around him, certain of a wrongful accusation.

“I had no reason to doubt my dad. He had never lied to me ever, that I knew of.” —Lori Orr [13:44]

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5. Trial and Unraveling Certainty

[14:14-16:44]

• The trial forced Lori to drop out of college due to financial strain—John’s legal bills consumed his resources.
• Lori married, had a child, and briefly moved to Oregon before returning to California as a single mother.
• John told his daughters not to attend the trial; they only sat through a couple of nondescript days.
• With no internet, Lori could only follow updates via news and courtroom sketches. She remained confident in his innocence.

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6. The Verdict: Betrayal Strikes

[16:44-21:06]

• Lori learned on AM radio that her father was convicted—not just of arson but four counts of first-degree murder.
• This revelation shattered her world; she was immediately contacted to testify at her father’s sentencing, pleading for his life (to avoid death penalty).

“My dad was gone forever…he was just taken away like he had died.” —Lori Orr [21:06]

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7. Sentencing and Aftermath

[21:06-24:30]

• Lori and her sister testified for leniency at John’s sentencing hearing, a deeply traumatic experience.
• John was sentenced to life without parole—not the death penalty—which brought relief but also prolonged the pain.

“I need to save my dad…He can’t get the death penalty.” —Lori Orr [22:31]

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8. Maintaining Loyalty—and Doubt

[24:30-26:42]

• Lori continued to visit John in prison and maintained a surface-level relationship via calls and letters.
• Over the years, John’s primary concern became himself—repeatedly asking Lori for favors, money, or investigative help.
• Lori began to feel manipulated, and doubt crept in regarding her father’s innocence.

---

9. The Book: Fiction or Confession?

[26:42-29:46]

• John wrote a novel prior to his arrest, with a protagonist arson investigator who moonlights as an arsonist. Prosecutors used the book as evidence, claiming it was barely fiction.
• Reading the book deeply disturbed Lori; real-life details mirrored her own experiences and the known facts of the deadly Pasadena hardware store fire.
• A chilling parallel: a scene about a child promised mint chip ice cream at Baskin Robbins, precisely matching police interviews with an actual survivor from the fire.

---

10. Confronting Reality: Evidence and Acceptance

[29:46-36:30]

• Lori discovered boxes of trial evidence, including a videotape John made.
• The video showed arson scenes both before and after fires erupted—evidence he was present before the blazes, supporting accusations against him.
• Lori confronted John in a letter; his evasive reply convinced her of his guilt.

“He wrote back to me and said: ‘When I get out of jail, you’ll know how innocent I am.’” —Lori Orr [36:22]

• Lori cut off contact, grieving her father as if dead.

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11. Parsing the Past: Searching for Warning Signs

[36:30-39:27]

• Lori reread childhood memories for warning signs but found nothing suspicious—John was always exceedingly cautious with fire.
• Reading his novel in full, she was sickened by explicit descriptions of the fireman’s sexual arousal by fire, later corroborated by accounts from John’s ex-wives regarding deviant behaviors.

“It just was pretty disgusting, really, to think about that way.” —Lori Orr [38:35]

---

12. The Scope, Modus Operandi & Investigation

[39:27-43:41]

• John Orr set approximately 2,000 fires, causing millions in damages and killing four people; fire rates in Glendale dropped 75% after his arrest.
• The investigation broke open with a fingerprint on an arson device and patterns in fire locations (often near arson investigator conferences).
• Later, tracking and surveillance definitively placed John at fire scenes.

---

13. Coming to Terms and Moving Forward

[43:41-45:26]

• A therapist advised Lori to grieve her father as if dead: “Your dad’s a sociopath, and you need to grieve him like he’s dead.”
• Writing was therapeutic; Lori co-authored a book with journalist Frank Girardo.
• She sought out and apologized to families of victims, drawing some comfort from their stories of resilience.

“She recommended that I do the same: move on from the tragedy that was my life and make the best out of my life that I can.” —Lori Orr [45:26]

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14. Regret, Guilt, and a Message for Others

[45:26-46:47]

• Lori wanted people to know she now believes her father guilty and regrets testifying to spare his life.
• She recognizes her family as victims, not just the direct victims of her father’s crimes.

“If he’s telling you he’s innocent, he’s not. Let me assure you he’s not. I probably had no business testifying so he wouldn’t get the death penalty. I only knew what I knew at the time, and I felt really guilty for doing that and sparing his life.” —Lori Orr [02:36 & 45:32]

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15. Reclaiming Life & Parenting After Betrayal

[46:47-48:00]

• Lori has built a new life, raising four children and choosing honesty about their grandfather’s legacy.
• Her son even completed a school report about John Orr, fully aware of the family’s story.

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16. Lori’s Reason for Sharing Her Story

[48:00-49:14]

• Lori shares in order to break stigma, highlight the “collateral victims” of crime, and offer a voice for families shunned after public betrayals.

“I want people to know that we're victims too…My dad was taken away immediately from me just as if he had died.” —Lori Orr [48:00]

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17. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “With dad, it was just about having fun, and I didn't see anything even close to anger with him.”
  —Lori Orr [08:39]

• “My brain just could not handle what that all meant. At that very moment, I put my head down on the desk and cried. My dad was gone forever.”
  —Lori Orr [21:06]

• “If he's telling you he's innocent, he's not. Let me assure you, he's not.”
  —Lori Orr [02:36, 45:32]

• “He betrayed the fire industry. He betrayed his friends, his family. He betrayed everyone by letting us think that he was one person…then being a monster that started all of these fires in which people have died.”
  —Lori Orr [41:00]

• “You, dad’s a sociopath, and you need to grieve him like he’s dead.”
  —Lori Orr recounting her therapist [43:46]

---

18. Key Timestamps

• 03:08 – Introduction to Lori’s family background
• 07:48 – Pasadena hardware store fire and John’s investigation
• 11:33 – Discovery of John’s arrest on TV
• 16:44 – The verdict: guilty of murder
• 21:06 – Emotional reaction to the verdict
• 26:52 – Reading John’s incriminating novel
• 29:46 – Real-life connections between the book and actual crimes
• 33:21 – Lori investigating evidence herself
• 34:57 – Discovery of the pre-fire video
• 36:22 – John’s evasive letter response
• 38:35 – Details on sexual deviance in the book
• 41:44 – How the investigation team finally caught John
• 43:46 – Therapist’s advice and grieving process
• 45:26 – Reaching out to victims’ families
• 48:00 – Lori’s reasons for sharing her story

---

19. Closing

Lori’s story is a profound exploration of the enduring pain caused by betrayal within a family. She demonstrates resilience in the face of shattered trust, models honesty for her children, and advocates for the “invisible” victims left behind by public tragedies. Her message is powerful: victims aren’t just those who suffer the crime itself—but also those whose very sense of self is undone by their loved ones’ actions.

Transcript

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[Lori Orr]

If he's telling you he's innocent, he's not. Let me assure you he's not. I probably had no business testifying, so he wouldn't get the death penalty. I only knew what I knew at the time, and I felt really guilty for doing that and sparing his life.

[Andrea Gunning]

I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. Lori Oxford grew up in Eagle Rock, a neighborhood in Los Angeles.

[Lori Orr]

I was the second daughter of Jodi and John Orr, and my sister is two years older than me.

[Andrea Gunning]

When Lori was just a year old, her parents separated. She and her sister lived with their mom and saw their dad every other weekend.

[Lori Orr]

Shortly after my parents divorced, my mom met my step. His name was Jerry and he moved in right away. Things were rough at home. Jerry was very abusive and an angry person. So when we would go to my dad's house, that would be vacation or a reprieve from what was going on at home with mom.

[Andrea Gunning]

Laurie and her sister looked forward to spending time with their dad. With him, they could relax and just be kids. It was the 70s and 80s in Los Angeles.

[Lori Orr]

We would do the fun things. We would go places, go to movies, go to plays.

[Andrea Gunning]

Her dad, John, loved being outdoors.

[Lori Orr]

Going camping, fishing, hiking, things like that. With dad and his dad, which is my grandfather, they were very much outdoorsmen.

[Andrea Gunning]

John always had fun with the kids, but he wasn't the most expressive father.

[Lori Orr]

He was somewhat of a mystery. He didn't say a whole lot. He didn't talk about his feelings a whole lot.

[Andrea Gunning]

From a young age, Lori and her sister knew that their dad had a very important job.

[Lori Orr]

The time that he didn't spend with us, he would be at work, and that was okay with us because he was saving people.

[Andrea Gunning]

John was a firefighter.

[Lori Orr]

We would go with him to the fire station and everybody would talk to him. Everybody would stop to talk. To my sister and I, he was

[Andrea Gunning]

a respected leader and experienced firefighter. And to Lori and her sister, he was a hero.

[Lori Orr]

We would see him on TV and he would be saving a dog or saving someone's life. My sister and I would always be tickled when we would see him on the news. We'd go to school and tell our friends. Did you see the news last night? My dad was on there.

[Andrea Gunning]

John rose through the ranks of the fire department. He was promoted to fire captain. Then he was promoted to the role of arson investigator. There were only a few in LA County. Arson investigators determined the cause of a fire by collecting evidence, interviewing witnesses, and examining the scene of the fire for any clues as to what started it. The role is kind of like a cross between a firefighter And a police detective. It was John's dream job. Being an arson investigator also meant John had the ability to arrest people.

[Lori Orr]

One time, my sister and I were going with him for the weekend, and we were driving back to his house, and in the old days, they would have the light to pull people over with, and all of a sudden, he put that on his roof of his car to pull somebody over. He was very serious and stern, and he told us to get underneath the dash onto the floor and don't get up until I come back. And he reached in the glove compartment, took out his gun, and then went outside onto the side of the freeway.

[Andrea Gunning]

Lori and her sister hid in the car, not sure what was happening.

[Lori Orr]

Then he came back into the car, told us we could get up, put the gun away, drove off, and we never heard another word about it.

[Andrea Gunning]

John's job scared Laurie and her sister. Sometimes they didn't want their dad to get hurt, but they knew he was doing noble work. In a region like southern California, where fires cause devastating losses every year, local fire departments are especially vital to the safety of the community. When major fires in the area happened, John was called to the scene. He developed a reputation as a highly respected arson investigator. He had to make sense of countless scenes of destruction. One of the most heartbreaking cases he handled was a fire that broke out in a hardware store in Pasadena in 1984.

[Lori Orr]

Four people died. Two were employees and then a grandmother and her grandson. They were being escorted out of the fire by an employee, and they ended up getting separated from that employee. The employee barely made it out with lots of burns, but the grandmother and her grandson, they were about 20ft from the exit when they did find them deceased in the fire.

[Andrea Gunning]

The sheriff's department found the cause of the fire to be accidental, A case of faulty electrical wiring. But John saw it differently.

[Lori Orr]

He knew that it was arson, and he was vocal about that to a number of different people.

[Andrea Gunning]

He saw clues nobody else did. He kept the community safe, and Lori always felt safe with him, too.

[Lori Orr]

I didn't even tell dad that Jerry, my stepdad, was abusive, so dad didn't know what was going on at mom's house. I was never scared of my dad. He never was a disciplinarian in our life at all. With dad, it was just about having fun, and I didn't see anything even close to anger with him.

[Andrea Gunning]

In high school, Lori and her sister lived full time with their mom and Jerry and saw their dad less often. But John continued to support the girls as best he could.

[Lori Orr]

He provided My first car, so I got my grandmother's old car, VW Rabbit, and it was orange, but I loved it.

[Andrea Gunning]

Lori had a boyfriend, played softball and worked two jobs.

[Lori Orr]

Part of that was being able to be away from home as much as possible. Also, I wanted my own money because I didn't want to have to rely on my parents to give me anything.

[Andrea Gunning]

During this time, their dad John, got remarried.

[Lori Orr]

It was his fourth marriage. Wanda and I got along really well, and I think that she was his best wife of all four of them.

[Andrea Gunning]

Lori treasured time with her dad. He never stopped prioritizing fun.

[Lori Orr]

He would always take us to Baskin Robbins for ice cream. That was a dad thing. We did it every time we were with him. I couldn't even eat ice cream because I was lactose intolerant, so I had to get sherbet every single time. But I still valued the times that we would go to Baskin Ramens because that was time. With dad.

[Andrea Gunning]

Returning home to her mom and Jerry's house was always challenging. Jerry's abuse continued as the girls got older.

[Lori Orr]

My sister left the house before she graduated high school. At some point, her and Jerry got in a huge fight and she basically ran away and left. My sister ended up staying at her friend's house and never coming back home. I have had a challenging relationship with my mom over the years because of her turning the blind eye, knowing how Jerry was treating us, and still allowing it to happen.

[Andrea Gunning]

Lori began to plan what she wanted for her own life and what she would do after graduating from high school.

[Lori Orr]

When I would think about my future in my teen years, I didn't have a lot of hopes and dreams. But what I did know was that I wanted to be in human resources. That is what I wanted to do for a job. And I got that from going to my first Real Life interview. When I left that interview, I said, I want to be on the other side of that. That's what I want to do for my life.

[Andrea Gunning]

One day, Lori was hanging out with her high school boyfriend.

[Lori Orr]

We had gone to his parents house and came in the door and were walking by them. They were watching tv and they said, lori, your dad's on tv. I said, oh, yeah, he's on the news a lot. And they said, no, you probably want to see this. I'm like, okay. So I came in, I sat down on their couch and looked. The first thing that I saw was my dad handcuffed and police officers putting him into the police car. He was being arrested for arson.

[Andrea Gunning]

Lori stared at the TV in shock.

[Lori Orr]

I was completely confused. What? No, he's an arson investigator. He's not doing arson. How ludicrous. What are they doing? They got all their facts wrong.

[Andrea Gunning]

She called her mom immediately.

[Lori Orr]

I said, mom, what's going on? She said, I have no idea. I'm seeing what you're seeing.

[Andrea Gunning]

Next, she called her dad's wife, Wanda,

[Lori Orr]

and I said, please, what's going on? And she said, this is all a mistake. There is a fireman who is lighting fires. Your dad knows who it is, but it's not him. He just needs to explain that to them and he'll clear it up and everything's going to be fine.

[Andrea Gunning]

Lori exhaled a bit.

[Lori Orr]

I'm like, oh, okay. Well, they've got it covered. They know it's a mistake. It's going to work itself out.

[Andrea Gunning]

John was placed on house arrest while he awaited trial. Lori and her sister went to go see him.

[Lori Orr]

My sister and I went in. He was very quiet. He wasn't the dad that we knew. He was quiet, didn't talk a lot.

[Andrea Gunning]

It was hard to see him struggling like this. Lori hoped they would find the real person behind the fire soon. Her dad was at so many crime scenes. Surely he had just gotten mixed up in the evidence. He dedicated his career to stopping fires. This had to be a mistake.

[Lori Orr]

I had no reason to doubt my dad. He had never lied to me ever, that I knew of. And I had no reason to not trust what he was saying. Everything I knew about him supported the fact that he wouldn't do something like that.

[Andrea Gunning]

John prepared for his trial and Lori and her sister went back to their daily lives.

[Lori Orr]

It really wasn't a big issue for us. We were just so confident that it was going to be worked out that it really was not that intrusive in our lives at that point.

[Andrea Gunning]

But the whole incident started causing problems. John was the one that was supposed to pay for Laurie to attend college.

[Lori Orr]

Now that he was arrested, all his money was going towards his legal battle and I just understood that I was on my own. So I worked full time and went to college a little bit, but it was too difficult, so I ended up quitting community college.

[Andrea Gunning]

While her dad waited for his trial, Lori and her high school boyfriend got married, had a child together and moved to Oregon. Then they separated and Laurie moved back to California to be closer to her family. She was in her early twenties and now a single mother to her one year old son. Once she got settled back in California, her dad's trial finally began. John was confident he would be acquitted. And he told Lori it would be a waste of her time to sit through the whole trial.

[Lori Orr]

My sister and I both wanted to attend the trial and show that we were in support of him. He did not allow us to do

[Andrea Gunning]

that, but there were a couple days where he said it would be all right for them to come and show support.

[Lori Orr]

We went to two days of the trial, super boring days. Nothing really happened. And that was it.

[Andrea Gunning]

The trial went on for weeks, and for most of it, Lori was busy parenting and working full time.

[Lori Orr]

We didn't know what was going on. We didn't know what the evidence was against him. We didn't know pretty much anything at that point.

[Andrea Gunning]

This was 1992, so she couldn't just search the Internet for more information.

[Lori Orr]

There was no way to really know what was going on except the news, of course, when they would do their news updates and the drawings of dad while he was in the courtroom.

[Andrea Gunning]

Whenever anyone asked Laurie about her dad's trial, she was confident.

[Lori Orr]

My dad's innocent. He's been wrongfully accused and hopefully he'll get out.

[Andrea Gunning]

Lori knew the verdict would be announced on the radio on a Friday in July.

[Lori Orr]

I was at work and the only way I could find out what was going on was on an AM news radio station, a little tiny radio on my desk at work. I was listening all afternoon so that I could hear it. Finally, close to 5 o', clock, they came on and said that they had found him guilty. But they said they found him guilty of murder.

[Andrea Gunning]

Murder?

[Lori Orr]

I thought he was being tried for arson.

[Andrea Gunning]

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[Andrea Gunning]

when Lori's dad John was arrested for arson, he downplayed the charges against him. He was so confident he told his daughters not to bother coming to his trial. But when Lori tuned in to hear

[Lori Orr]

the verdict, they said they found him guilty of murder. I thought he was being tried for arson. It was completely shocking that it was a murder charge on top of everything else.

[Andrea Gunning]

Lori learned on the radio that her dad had been found guilty not only of arson, but of four counts of first degree murder for four people that died in an arson fire. Then the radio report moved on to other Topics like the weather and politics. But Lori's world had just come crashing down.

[Lori Orr]

My brain just could not handle what that all meant. At that very moment, I put my head down on the desk and cried. My dad was gone forever. That was it right there. Just in that moment, he was just taken away like he had died.

[Andrea Gunning]

But she wasn't given much time to grieve.

[Lori Orr]

Within an hour, his attorneys were on the phone calling, saying, you need to get to our office tomorrow so that we could participate in the sentencing phase and testify for him to not get the death penalty.

[Andrea Gunning]

The death penalty. As Lori drove to the attorney's office, her mind spun. She was convinced of her dad's innocence with every fiber of her being. Her stepdad, Jerry, that's what a bad guy was like. Her dad was the complete opposite. He was a hero, a good guy. She didn't just believe that.

[Lori Orr]

She knew that he's innocent. Like, how can this happen? He was wrongfully accused. How dare you? It was shocking, but it was more shocking that they could put an innocent man behind bars right away.

[Andrea Gunning]

Lori and her sister agreed to testify in support of their dad at his sentencing hearing. With the death penalty on the table, the stakes could not be higher.

[Lori Orr]

We were on the same page, and I kind of went into I need to save my dad mode. He can't get the death penalty. I need to save his life.

[Andrea Gunning]

The weight of the sentence hung heavy on Lori's shoulders. She lay awake at night, her mind racing. What if she couldn't save his life?

[Lori Orr]

Would I want to be there when they carried out the death penalty? Would it be my fault if he gets the death penalty? Does that mean I didn't do enough? Or I didn't say the right things?

[Andrea Gunning]

Then the day of the sentencing hearing arrived. Lori, her sister, her mom, and her grandparents all stood anxiously in the halls of the courthouse, waiting to be called in one by one.

[Lori Orr]

I saw a couple of firemen out there as well, and I introduced myself, and I asked if they were there in support of my dad. And they kind of had an elusive answer. I thanked them for being there and thought that they were supporting the fact that he doesn't get the death penalty.

[Andrea Gunning]

Then Lori was called in to testify.

[Lori Orr]

I can't even describe how nervous I was and shaking. I saw dad off to the side, and he didn't look at me. He didn't say anything, mouth anything. Acted like I was a complete stranger.

[Andrea Gunning]

Lori took the stand.

[Lori Orr]

His attorneys asked some questions. I was so nervous that it was. It was almost like a blackout.

[Andrea Gunning]

A few days later, Wanda called her with the ruling.

[Lori Orr]

Four people said death penalty and eight people said no. He got life in prison without the possibility of parole. I felt relieved that he didn't get the death penalty because I could still have a relationship with him.

[Andrea Gunning]

She tried to hold on to the closeness she felt with her dad.

[Lori Orr]

We would go visit him in prison, which was just horrific to suddenly be visiting your father in prison and bringing my one year old, two year old son to see him.

[Andrea Gunning]

John eventually got transferred to a prison further away from Laurie. When visiting became too difficult, she continued to write letters and he called her often.

[Lori Orr]

We didn't talk about anything and in depth. He always said that everything was recorded in jail and that he couldn't talk about his case because he was trying to appeal it and they would hear everything. So it was very surface, you know, what are you doing these days? How's your job? How's your mom?

[Andrea Gunning]

Part of Lori's identity was being the child of a wrongfully convicted man. It was a tragedy, a miscarriage of justice, and one she was powerless to fix. In the first year or two of his sentence, she thought about him every day. Even from a distance, he was still the thoughtful father she knew and loved. But as the years passed, her dad became resigned. When they were on the phone, he wouldn't ask about Laurie's life or her kids. He mainly called to ask for favors.

[Lori Orr]

He would ask, can you do this for me? Can you do that for me? Can you send me money, contact this person or write a letter to this person, or go in the boxes and try to find this page? And it's like we didn't have time to do all of that.

[Andrea Gunning]

Lori started avoiding his calls.

[Lori Orr]

I knew it was going to be another request to do something for him. It wasn't about, how are you doing? It was about what he needed.

[Andrea Gunning]

The man on the other end of the phone started to sound different from the father Laurie had grown up with. Her father was selfless and spent his days saving others. This man now was selfish and seemed to care only about saving himself. It was only then that Laurie began to wonder, what if she didn't really know her dad?

[Lori Orr]

I started to feel manipulated by him and feel like there was more to him. That's when I really said, okay, I'm going to read this book.

[Andrea Gunning]

The book, it was a novel that her father John wrote before he was arrested. A fictional story about an arson investigator who moonlights as a prolific arsonist. Once John was arrested, the book became a key piece of evidence in his trial.

[Lori Orr]

It's supposed to be fiction, and they used it in his trial, saying it was more like a diary.

[Andrea Gunning]

Laurie decided it was time to finally read it.

[Lori Orr]

I got through the first chapter and I had to put it down because every single thing in that chapter that I read about, the pictures he had on his walls, who he lived with, where we would go visit him as kids, everything I could remember as real life, that was scary. I thought, if I continue reading this book, everything I think about my dad can change.

[Andrea Gunning]

She put the book down. Reading any further felt like opening Pandora's box. And for one more year she kept the lid tightly shut. But then eventually, she picked up the book again. The main character sets a fire in a hardware store. Before he does, he walks through the store pretending to be a customer. He overhears a conversation between grandparents running errands with their grandson.

[Lori Orr]

The grandmother and grandfather were telling their grandson that if he was good while he was in the store, that they would take him next door to Baskin Robbins and get ice cream. It was said in his book that the child said, I want mint chip ice cream.

[Andrea Gunning]

The fire in the hardware store that John wrote about in his book was hauntingly similar to the 1984 fire that killed four people in a hardware store in Pasadena, the one John investigated. But when the police department started investigating his connection to a string of fires throughout California, they returned to interviews with the survivors of the fire, looking for any details that might show John was at the scene before the fire broke out.

[Lori Orr]

When they talked to the grandfather after the fire, they asked him about that scenario, and he said, we promised we would go next door to Baskin Robbins to get his favorite mint chip ice cream.

[Andrea Gunning]

Secrets, Lies, Infidelity, Deceit so what happens when the person you love the most turns out not to be who you think they are? Your Sunday nights just got a lot more interesting because Betrayal is now a primetime TV show. I implore you to watch Secrets and lies Sundays at 10pm 9 Central on ABC and stream on Disney and Hulu every Sunday. A new story of staggering betrayal.

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[Andrea Gunning]

When Lori's father, John was arrested for arson, she was sure it was a mistake. He was an arson investigator and had dedicated his life to stopping these tragedies. He pled guilty in court to a lighter sentence, but always maintained that he was innocent. Lori believed him. But then years later, she decided to read his book and what she read scared her.

[Lori Orr]

There's information in there that other people would not have known. I think that he had to be there in some of those circumstances.

[Andrea Gunning]

Could this be true? Lori needed to know more.

[Lori Orr]

I read every piece of information I could find on him. I watched every show that I could get my hands on, newspaper articles, anything that had any information about his trial or crimes.

[Andrea Gunning]

But the most important evidence she found was in her own garage.

[Lori Orr]

We had boxes of stuff from the trial in our garages and I started to investigate that.

[Andrea Gunning]

She'd never really dug into those boxes, but when she started combing through them, she found something that made her stomach drop. A videotape made by her dad.

[Lori Orr]

He had videoed places that were on fire, which was not uncommon for an arson investigator because they analyzed fires. The difference in these videos was that he was videotaping the place that was on fire before it ever caught on fire. And then after, while it was engulfed in flames.

[Andrea Gunning]

In June of 1990, temperatures in Glendale, California, reached over 100 degrees. The hills that wrapped around the city grew dry. And then on June 27, a brush fire broke out in the hills. It picked up speed, quickly tearing into neighborhoods. Residents rushed to evacuate. The fire took a devastating toll. It destroyed 46 homes and damaged 20 others altogether. The brush fire caused $50 million in damage. John hurried to the scene to investigate the cause. But during his trial, it was revealed that John was at the scene before the fire started.

[Lori Orr]

He had a recording that showed the hillside prior to being on fire. Just calm, quiet, settled. And then right after that, it was the recording of the same exact spot, the same exact house burning to the ground.

[Andrea Gunning]

For over a decade, Lori believed her dad when he said he was innocent. When she was growing up with an abusive stepfather, her dad was a place of refuge. He was the good guy. That's why she never believed the charges. But what was on this videotape felt less like evidence and more like proof.

[Lori Orr]

It just doesn't make any sense why he would have recorded that beforehand unless he was the one that started that fire. So I wrote him a letter and said, hey, I'm starting to feel like you did these things. I really need you to tell me and convince me that you didn't, or else I'm done with you. I expected him to reply with a pleading statement. For me to believe that he wouldn't do something like that. That's fully what I expected. That's what I wanted. And he wrote back to me and said, when I get out of jail, you'll know how innocent I am.

[Andrea Gunning]

For the first time in her life, Lori believed her dad was guilty. His letter was the final confirmation.

[Lori Orr]

I decided I did not need him and his manipulation in my life anymore. He did horrible things, and I don't need to have this horrible man in my life.

[Andrea Gunning]

The man who had set these fires and watched them burn felt like a complete stranger.

[Lori Orr]

You start to second guess everything your whole life.

[Andrea Gunning]

She flipped through childhood memories, trying to find anything that could have been a warning sign. But she kept Coming up empty.

[Lori Orr]

He was always very, very cautious with fire. He always made sure our smoke detectors were working. He would always be careful with the campfire when we were camping, Just like you would expect a fireman to be. There was never anything related to fire or my dad's relationship to fire that would have given me any indication that he would do something like this.

[Andrea Gunning]

Being a firefighter and an arson investigator Was so central to John's identity. It was his passion, his community, and to his kids. It was what made him a hero. If that was all a lie, was anything about him real?

[Lori Orr]

Did he really even love me? You know, I'm not sure. I came across a picture of him holding me when I was a baby, and I thought, oh, he did love me at some point. You know, that's kind of how I felt about it afterwards, that everything was just a lie.

[Andrea Gunning]

She thought back to the time that her dad had made her and her sister hide in the car while he arrested someone. How he had pulled out his gun and stepped out onto the side of the highway. Had he really arrested someone or had something else happened? Everything was murkier now. As hard as it was to face the truth about her dad, Laurie wanted to see the full picture of him. So she finished reading his novel, and what she read made her sick.

[Lori Orr]

In his book, it went into heavy detail about how the firefighter who was lighting the fires was sexually aroused by fire. So, of course, when I'm reading this book, I'm thinking of my dad being that character and being aroused by fire. It just was pretty disgusting, really, to think about that way.

[Andrea Gunning]

For some arsonists like John, There is a sexual component to their crimes.

[Lori Orr]

I also learned in the interviews with his ex wives, There definitely was sexually deviant behavior in his past that fits the arsonist role.

[Andrea Gunning]

Some of John's behavior seems almost contradictory. In some ways, he appears to be proud of his crimes. He filmed them, wrote about them, Insisted as an investigator that these were not accidental fires. He wanted everyone to know this was arson. But once he was caught, he never admitted to what he had done.

[Lori Orr]

He's been in prison 35 years now, but he still says he's innocent.

[Andrea Gunning]

Here's what Laurie thinks about this.

[Lori Orr]

It was kind of a cat and mouse game for him. I could do this and not get caught type of thing. And him writing the book was yet just another example of that. Putting it in their face that he did those, but isn't getting caught.

[Andrea Gunning]

Over the course of 30 years, John Orr set an estimated 2,000 fires across California. He Burned down countless homes and devastated ecosystems. He caused millions of dollars in property damage. And worst of all, his fires took four lives. John Orr is widely considered to be the most prolific arsonist in American history.

[Lori Orr]

After he was arrested, the number of fires in Glendale and the surrounding cities went down by 75%. That's pretty telling.

[Andrea Gunning]

In an area like Southern California, where one rogue match can cause large scale irreversible damage, that number is especially chilling.

[Lori Orr]

I can't even put into words what it's like to hear the that my dad is considered the most prolific serial arsonist of all time. It's disgusting, it's horrible, it's unbelievable. He betrayed the fire industry. He betrayed his friends, his family. He betrayed everyone by letting us think that he was one person. This hero, respected firefighter, arson investigator who rose through the ranks to being a monster that started all of these fires in which people have died.

[Andrea Gunning]

As to how investigators finally figured out that it was John lighting these fires, it started with a fingerprint. In 1987, firefighters found a fire starting device. It was made from a cigarette, matches, and notebook paper. And on the notebook paper was a fingerprint. But it would take a few years for fingerprinting technology to evolve enough for investigators to tie that fingerprint to John. In the meantime, something strange was happening. A series of fires was breaking out across California With a bizarre element tying them together. They all broke out near arson investigation conferences. Cross referencing lists of attendees to these conferences generated a list of key suspects. And among them was John. Finally, in 1991, new fingerprint technology was available, and investigators were able to trace the fingerprint from the notebook paper back to John Orr. But the fingerprint still wasn't enough. Maybe John had just mishandled the evidence. They needed more proof. So they placed a tracking device in his car. And then John's car was tracked to a location of an arson fire, and he was arrested. The investigation revealed eerie warning signs from John's childhood.

[Lori Orr]

He was lighting fires as young as 8 years old. My dad, in my mind, was troubled.

[Andrea Gunning]

Since birth, Lori has been forced to rewrite the entire story of who her father is. But John himself has never admitted the truth.

[Lori Orr]

It is something that haunts me, and I pray that he will leave a note or a letter or something when he is on his deathbed that puts closure to it.

[Andrea Gunning]

To come to terms with her dad's actions, Lori went to therapy.

[Lori Orr]

The therapist looked at me and he said, you, dad's a sociopath and you need to grieve him like he's dead. And that's exactly what I did. I grieved him like he was dead and put him out of mind, out of sight, and I let that part of my life go.

[Andrea Gunning]

When Lori was 35, she had a heart attack. She had to take time away from work to recover.

[Lori Orr]

Once I went on disability, I had a really challenging time, and so I somehow got the idea to write a book. And that's just what I needed at that moment.

[Andrea Gunning]

Lori reached out to Frank Girardo, a journalist who'd covered her dad's crimes. She asked him if he would be interested in co authoring the book with her.

[Lori Orr]

Back when my dad was arrested, Frank interviewed my dad, and with his familiarity with the case, he was the perfect person to do this with me.

[Andrea Gunning]

While researching and writing the book, she decided to get in touch with the mother of the child who died in the fire at the hardware store.

[Lori Orr]

I couldn't get that family off my mind. The fact that she lost her mom and her son in the same fire that day, I just felt compelled that I had to apologize on his behalf. She did tell me that she was able to move on and find joy in her life, and now she has grandkids and, you know, things like that. And she recommended that I do the same to move on from the tragedy that was my life and to make the best out of my life that I can.

[Andrea Gunning]

The process of writing the book was a way for Laurie to reckon with her part in this story.

[Lori Orr]

I wanted people to know that I now think he's guilty. If he's telling you he's innocent, he's not. Let me assure you he's not. And in some way to acknowledge that I probably had no business testifying so he wouldn't get the death penalty. That was important for me to put out there and have people know, because I only knew what I knew at the time. And I felt really guilty for doing that and sparing his life. He should have never put me on the stand. He should have never allowed his kids to do that or go through that.

[Andrea Gunning]

Lori's book is called Pyromania Murder and A Daughter's Nightmare. Her father's crimes will always be a part of her story, but they are not the whole story.

[Lori Orr]

Only with maturity do you see all the ways that your life was shaped. I've had lots of issues in my life that probably stem from having issues with my dad and not having him there to protect me or be a role model to me. But I will never stop trying to be happy, no matter what, till the day I die. That's what we're here for.

[Andrea Gunning]

Lori has built a beautiful life for herself.

[Lori Orr]

What I'm doing now is just going through life, raising my kids, trying to be as happy as I possibly can be in the time that I have. I have absolutely wonderful kids. I have four of them. Three are adults. One I'm still raising.

[Andrea Gunning]

Lori's chosen to be honest with them about who their grandfather is.

[Lori Orr]

As young as they were saying, mom, where's your dad? And stuff like that, I would answer it age appropriately.

[Andrea Gunning]

When Lori's son was in high school, his teacher announced that their next assignment was to write a paper about the serial arsonist John Orr.

[Lori Orr]

He raised his hand, said, teacher, that's my grandfather. And she's like, oh, well, you don't have to do the story. You don't have to do the work. And he's like, no, I'll do it. He's a stranger to me. I'll do it. And I told his teacher if she wanted me to answer any questions for them, that I'd be happy to do that. And so she emailed me questions from the students, and then I emailed it back to them.

[Andrea Gunning]

We end every weekly episode with the same question. Why do you want to share your story?

[Lori Orr]

When all this went down with my dad, the fire community is very close knit and takes care of each other. Not one person ever asked how we were doing, if we were okay, if we needed anything. So it always made me feel like we were guilty by association. And I want people to know that we're victims too. I don't want to take the place of the actual victims, but we are victims that were affected by that crime. And my dad was taken away immediately from me just as if he had died. I don't know why I keep doing this. After I do it, when we hang up, then I go, oh, I think I did a good job. I think I conveyed the messages that I wanted to convey. But I didn't sleep well last night and I won't sleep well tonight because this is in my brain. That's why I have to very strategically put it out of my mind and my head, because it does affect me when I go back and visit it. But I do think there's important messages that I'm putting out there.

[Andrea Gunning]

This is our last Betrayal Weekly episode for a little while. We'll be back in January with a whole new season of Betrayal. It'll be one story told over multiple weeks. And after that we have more Betrayal Weekly episodes coming. Right now, we're actively working on new stories, so if you have a story you'd like to share on the podcast, write to us. Etrayalpodmail.com in the meantime, we hope you enjoy your holiday season. We'll see you in the new year. To access our newsletter, view additional content, and connect with the Betrayal community, join our [e-mail]. we're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribers subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. This episode was written and produced by Olivia Hewitt and Monique Labord, with additional production from Ben Fetterman. Casting support from Curry Richmond. Our I Heart team is Ally Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt d' Alvecchio Additional audio editing by Tanner Robbins Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Baines Music Library provided by MIB Music and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Lori Orr]

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[Lori Orr]

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[Lori Orr]

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[Andrea Gunning]

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