Andrea Gunning (2:58)

Betrayal listeners, it's Andrea Gunning. We're off this week for Thanksgiving, but we'll be back next week. This week we wanted to re release a listener favorite, Bernie Brown's story. We originally released it in two parts, but for this re release we're combining both parts so you can hear his full story all at once. We'll be back next week and in the meantime, Happy Thanksgiving. For those celebrating. We are so grateful for all of you listeners. Thank you for everything. So without further ado, here's Bernie's story.

Bernie Brown (3:30)

So we sat down and he was like, he doesn't believe in NDAs, so he's not going to ask for one of them. And I was just like, what the hell is going on here? Like, what is happening? And it was like, oh, do you know what? I think I need to tell you a little bit about my family history.

Andrea Gunning (4:02)

I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. Today I want to introduce you to Bernie Brown.

Bernie Brown (4:16)

My entire life has been paycheck to paycheck. I'm just very clever with it. I've cut my own hair for the past 20 years and colored it because I'm like, well, if somebody else can do that, why can't I do that?

Andrea Gunning (4:29)

While growing up in London, Bernie experienced a difficult upbringing.

Bernie Brown (4:33)

My childhood was very rough. My mum was extremely strong, but she was going through massive domestic violence with my dad at one point, very, very seriously, we're talking like hospitalization.

Andrea Gunning (4:51)

Bernie witnessed his dad's violence at a young age.

Bernie Brown (4:55)

I do remember one time walking into the kitchen and he had her up by a knife. I actually still remember to this day the layout of the room. I remember it very, very vividly. She would be the punching bag to make sure that we were never harmed.

Andrea Gunning (5:14)

His mom was a pillar of strength.

Bernie Brown (5:18)

My mother, everything I do and the person that I am now is because of who she was and what she showed me.

Andrea Gunning (5:25)

What Bernie remembers most about his mom was how she always made everyone feel at home.

Bernie Brown (5:32)

She was always very house proud, always cleaning. When I hit school, my friends would come over to see her. She was very much an open door. The door was never Locked, which was probably unsafe. But anyone knocked on the door, anyone who needed help, regardless of whether she had it or or not, it would always be a yes. And she was very, very well known for that.

Andrea Gunning (5:59)

When Bernie came out as gay, my

Bernie Brown (6:01)

family were lovely with it. I was very, very, very lucky. That enabled me to actually be proud and celebrate it.

Andrea Gunning (6:10)

He began to explore the queer scene in London.

Bernie Brown (6:14)

When you first come out as being gay, you've got the big clubs, you know, the G A Y Astoria, which has closed down now. I spent many a happy evening there.

Andrea Gunning (6:24)

Should we say Bernie was living his best life? It was a fun and exciting time, but deep down he was looking for real partnership.

Bernie Brown (6:34)

I really wanted to find somebody to settle down with. I just wanted that one on one connection. I don't remember actually being witnessing a stable relationship, and I think that's why I so desperately needed one.

Andrea Gunning (6:54)

At age 18, Bernie found what he was looking for.

Bernie Brown (6:58)

I met my first real boyfriend at the time in London. We moved to Newcastle, we bought a house, we had two dogs and two cars and we had that life. I must have been 22, 23, and it wasn't legal in the UK to get married at that point. So what we did, we threw a party and we legally changed our names. So we kind of had our little version of a wedding and it was just going amazingly.

Andrea Gunning (7:29)

He had everything he wanted and it was great for about eight years, but

Bernie Brown (7:34)

then it just didn't work. When that failed, we were actually very close friends for about 10 years after. I was best man at his wedding.

Andrea Gunning (7:46)

After their relationship ended, Bernie's mother's health started to decline. At the age of 46, she died of heart failure.

Bernie Brown (7:55)

We had that time to say goodbye, which rarely do people get. I could actually process it there and then, and we both said what we felt and, you know, what she wanted from us. In life.

Andrea Gunning (8:08)

Now Bernie felt truly out on his own. He was newly single and starting over in the city.

Bernie Brown (8:15)

I was in London. Of course I had flings and you know, all of them that come with it. But every single time I would never see somebody or sleep with somebody and instantly just disregard. There would always be an element of, hmm, could this go further?

Andrea Gunning (8:36)

He was a romantic, but Bernie knew he had to prioritize himself and his career. After years of working in retail, Bernie wanted to start a brand of his own. So he started saving everything he could to start his own clothing brand.

Bernie Brown (8:51)

I've never, never had money at all, but I've always worked very, very hard for the money that I Do have. I've always wanted to work for myself. No answer to anyone. So I started a clothing T shirt business like my own prints and selling them online. And I was like, it's my time. Let me build something that's my own.

Andrea Gunning (9:16)

Even though Bernie was working a lot, he still wanted to have a good time.

Bernie Brown (9:20)

I don't need the relationship at the minute, but you know, you need the physical side of it.

Andrea Gunning (9:25)

So he went on Grindr, the dating app for gay men.

Bernie Brown (9:29)

So I was using it happily. I'd actually met some quite good friends. Now I actually do still remember the the message come through cuz I had had a glass of wine and I was sat with a glass of wine and I got the famous. I remember there was something intriguing. It was very well written and not the usual first opening message that you get on that kind of app. And I thought, oh, it's a nice breath of fresh air. There's nothing gonna hurt, I'll just entertain it.

Andrea Gunning (10:01)

His name was Leo and Bernie had never seen him on the app before.

Bernie Brown (10:06)

I was like, I've not seen you around here before. And it was like, no, I live in central London by Hyde park, just around the corner from Harrods, this, that and the other. Instantly I was like, well, hold on, they're like £20 million.

Andrea Gunning (10:17)

Bernie didn't know anyone with a house in Hyde Park. That was a completely different world.

Bernie Brown (10:23)

Bearing in mind it's Grindr. You instantly just think, okay, all right, this fictional whatever, so you entertain. And I was like, oh, lovely, fine.

Andrea Gunning (10:35)

Leo was quick to ask him on a date.

Bernie Brown (10:41)

He was like, I'm not big talking on these apps. I'm around the corner, why don't you come over? Nothing untoward. He was like, just, you know, let me cook you some dinner and we'll just have a glass of wine. And I then was like, oh, this is very sweet. He's very well spoken.

Andrea Gunning (10:57)

In addition to his apartment in London, Leo also had a luxury trailer, an Airstream that he kept at a high end campground.

Bernie Brown (11:07)

They've got their own unique gardens and plots and all of these. It's beautiful. So I was like, okay, this is nice. There's this big beautiful white Range Rover that was sat next to it. He was very articulate and he did speak Queen's English. It's very smooth, but pronounces every word as intended by her Majesty the Queen. I was like, oh my God, I need to like, you know, I need to up it up, up it a notch.

Andrea Gunning (11:40)

Leo made a delicious dinner.

Bernie Brown (11:42)

Instantly I was Taken in just his charm. I've never met anybody with that smooth charm that isn't patronizing. It just was focused on me. And we had an amazing meal.

Andrea Gunning (12:00)

Bernie was really enjoying himself. He liked talking to Leo and they bonded over cars.

Bernie Brown (12:06)

He went through his picture gallery and he had all of these cars. We had the Bentleys, we had Aston Martins, we had quite a few Range Rovers, some old classics. And he was just flicking through and it was like, this is my pride and joy. I love cars. And this, that and the other.

Andrea Gunning (12:24)

The pictures also showed that Leo had serious money, a lot of it.

Bernie Brown (12:30)

You can kind of tell if somebody's got old money or new money. New money is very much the designer head to toe. And all of this old money is. You can't really tell if they've got money. They're the chinos, the nice shirt, the necktie, that kind. And that's how he was.

Andrea Gunning (12:48)

But Bernie didn't understand why he asked him to come to his trailer instead of his London apartment.

Bernie Brown (12:55)

At that point, he just said he was from a very influential family within the UK and because of his family, he can't be out, he can't be gay. So to escape all of the craziness, he needs somewhere to get away. And he said, nobody knows about this caravan. Like his family don't know, security doesn't know. So for him, it's just his little getaway to just be himself. So I was like, okay, fine. But at that point, I didn't know who his family was.

Andrea Gunning (13:29)

Bernie ended up staying and hanging out with Leo for hours.

Bernie Brown (13:33)

It got dark. It must have been around about 11, 12 o' clock at night. He was like, oh, let's go inside, let's go in the caravan. And we sat in the sofa area and just had a conversation. But there's something very weird that happened. It was like, do you mind if I ask you to do something? Can you just undress in front of me? I won't touch. I won't do anything like that. Bearing in mind I probably had a bottle of wine, so I did and I got naked and he didn't. And he was like, just turn around for me. And that was it. And I was like, okay, you can get dressed now. I was like, what was all that about? He was just like, I've not been with many men, so I'm a little bit nervous instantly. I was like, oh, that's so sweet.

Andrea Gunning (14:27)

They kissed good night and Bernie got a taxi home.

Bernie Brown (14:31)

Next morning I woke up and of course there was the most beautiful message that was on my phone. And he was like, look, I really want to see you again. I can't get you out my mind. This, that, and the other. And we just had normal conversation through the day. I just started feeling a bit warm. I was just like, is this really happening?

Andrea Gunning (14:50)

They decided on a second date.

Bernie Brown (14:52)

So again, I went over. We had something to eat. The conversation was effortless. The subjects, it was just. It was so smooth. It was as if I'd known him for years. It was so easy. And then we started kissing and this, that, and the other. And then he. I remember he started coughing, and I was like, oh, is everything okay? It was like, yeah, it's fine. I'm just. I'm very, very nervous. So I was like, look, listen, let's just sit, take it slow, and, you know, see where we go. Nothing has to happen. And then, you know, we went back to it, and things were happening. And then he kind of had a coughing fit. And it actually got really serious that I was like, I'll get you a glass of water. So I got him a glass of water, and he would not stop coughing. So I was like, I'm just gonna step outside, because by this point, he was bringing things up. It was not romantic at all. And I was outside for about 10 minutes, and all you could hear was this hacking up. And at that point, I was stood there, and I was like, what do I do? Do I go? Do I just, like, leave? But then my car keys are in there. This is really awkward. So then he called me back in, and we had this conversation, and it was. He just apologized. And that's when he said that he's got a few health issues. And it's like he's getting them checked up, and it's nothing too serious to. To worry about at the minute. And it was, like, so apologetic. I was like, honestly, it's fine. Let's just watch something. Calm down. It's. I was like, it's generally not a big deal.

Andrea Gunning (16:38)

After Leo recovered from his coughing fit, Bernie stayed, and they ended up having a really lovely evening.

Bernie Brown (16:45)

We had a few dates at that point. It was like, can I come to yours? So I was like, you know what? Yes, come to mine. I will cook us a nice meal. And then that's the first time that he came round, and he brought the Bentley. This Bentley Continental white thing pulled up, and I was like, what the hell is this?

Andrea Gunning (17:09)

Bernie had seen the pictures of Leo's cars, but he was skeptical that Leo really owned all of them.

Bernie Brown (17:15)

All the way up until that point, and that was a few weeks in, I took everything with a pinch of salt. And then I think that was the first time when the Bentley pulled up, I'm like, hold on.

Andrea Gunning (17:25)

If this is true, the Bentley was impressive.

Bernie Brown (17:29)

I'd never even been close to a Bentley. It's like during a ride. So I was like, yes. I was like, come on. So I got in and we went for a drive and oh my God, it goes fast. Beautiful car.

Andrea Gunning (17:41)

Later that night, when they were deep in conversation,

Bernie Brown (17:46)

it slipped in. It was like, oh, I've got to go down to the castle today for whatever event I have to. I'm being dragged down. And I was like, castle, what's this? And he was like, oh, do you know what? I think I need to tell you a little bit about my family history.

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Bernie Brown (23:21)

So we sat down and he was like, right, he doesn't believe in NDA so he's not gonna ask for one of them. And I was just like, NDA, what the hell is going on here? Like, what is happening?

Andrea Gunning (23:32)

A non disclosure agreement. Bernie wasn't following.

Bernie Brown (23:37)

But then he opened up with, do you know who the Norfolks are? And I said, no, I have no idea who that is. So then he went through the family history. So he was like, my dad's brother is the Duke of Norfolk. I didn't know who that was. He was like, the Duke of Norfolk is the highest peerage in the UK outside of the Royal family. So it's literally the Royal family. Then the estate of the Duke of Norfolk, they're bloodline royals, they're just not direct in line to the throne, obviously. I had a little look on Google and you can see on his profile who the Duke of Norfolk and the immense responsibility that he has within Britain. So I was like, okay, fine, so that's your dad's brother. He was like, yeah. And Leo's title, he was Viscount Norfolk ii.

Andrea Gunning (24:30)

And the castle he'd mentioned offhand was Arundel Castle, a thousand year old architectural masterpiece in the south of England.

Bernie Brown (24:39)

And he was like, let me show you something. Because at that point he'd brung an overnight bag and he had this Cartier box, quite slim and opened was a crest with flower spikes all around. It was a circular shape with the St George's Cross in the middle, then had some inscriptions on it and it had the House of Norfolk and Fitz Allen. And he said, we have to carry this everywhere we go. Badges and emblems and crests, because if somebody passes, they need it instantly for a sign of respect. And all of this I held was so heavy. And I was just like, what is going on in my life right at this minute in time? You know, I've got somebody here that is amazing and like so into me. But at the same time, also with the Bentley out front and I'm sitting here holding this big royal crest.

Andrea Gunning (25:43)

Bernie couldn't wrap his mind around it.

Bernie Brown (25:45)

And I was like, I don't know what to say. And he was like, it's fine. It was like, just ask any questions that you have. And I was like, I literally don't have questions. Like, my mind is blank.

Andrea Gunning (25:56)

This was really big. Leo came from a very important and complicated world. Bernie didn't know what it would mean for his relationship with Leo.

Bernie Brown (26:08)

He was like, I want to keep us separate. You know that I have to do this with you. I want to do. And he was like, until we figure out how or if we can mix this, let's just try. So I was like, look, I'm fine with that. I'm not here. And I never have been impressed by money. Obviously, I'm impressed by the Bentley, but I'm not here for anything other than you.

Andrea Gunning (26:31)

This was a pivotal moment. The conversation deepened their connection.

Bernie Brown (26:37)

That was then the first day that he had opened up and he trusted me. He trusted me with this secret and his family and his line. I think that was the first time that I was like, yeah, he really likes me.

Andrea Gunning (26:52)

Leo let Bernie into his inner circle, but he made it clear privacy and discretion was critical.

Bernie Brown (27:02)

The first few months after that, it was amazing. He really, genuinely wanted to see me happy and to take care of me.

Andrea Gunning (27:15)

Bernie and Leo were spending more and more time with each other.

Bernie Brown (27:18)

He pretty much moved in. I think that was about a month and a half in. I gave him a key and I literally just said, you know, use it whenever you want.

Andrea Gunning (27:28)

Leo never missed a moment to make Bernie feel loved.

Bernie Brown (27:31)

If I was on a late shift, I would finish 10, 11 o' clock at night, and then he would be there with dinner, with flowers. At that minute in time, I had felt the happiest, settled and loved than, I would probably say, bar my mum, than I had ever felt in my life.

Andrea Gunning (27:54)

Even though Leo came from a wealthy background, he worked hard and had a career he was passionate about.

Bernie Brown (28:02)

He knew about watches. He was a horologist. He had been to Switzerland, studied at the best places. He absolutely knew everything. He had space to do a little studio. He was taking all of these Rolexes apart and in front of me, putting them back together. And then he was like, I'm licensed by Rolex to do that.

Andrea Gunning (28:22)

It was a very competitive certification, but luxury watches were Leo's life.

Bernie Brown (28:28)

He always had Rolex Patek Philippe on his arm.

Andrea Gunning (28:32)

Within a few months, they were spending almost every night together. They were exclusive. Bernie was starting to think that Leo could be the one. There was only one big concern, and that was Leo's health. It was there from the beginning, but Bernie was seeing his Symptoms worsen. Leo wasn't just coughing. He was now throwing up.

Bernie Brown (28:58)

He went silent for, I want to say, two days. Now, by that point, please realize that two days, when I am now fully into this, fully into the emotion, is like two weeks.

Andrea Gunning (29:14)

During those two days, Bernie was desperate to hear from Leo. While he waited, his mind began to spin.

Bernie Brown (29:22)

What have I done? Have I said something? I went back through whatsapps, and this is only two days of no conversation. I went through whatsapps to find out what I've said that he could possibly take offense with. Anyway, he eventually came back and basically apologized for not being in contact with me over the two days.

Andrea Gunning (29:41)

Leo had a good reason for being out of touch. He'd been in the hospital.

Bernie Brown (29:47)

He was like, I can't say anything over the phone, but I just need to get out of London. My family going into a panic and trying to keep this maintained, you know, make sure that it doesn't go to any press. He was like, can I just come to yours? I was like, absolutely. At that point, he told me that he was suffering from brain cancer and they've given him a year to live, and obviously he had a lot of processing that he needs to do.

Andrea Gunning (30:18)

Bernie was devastated. He wanted to be there for Leo any way he could.

Bernie Brown (30:23)

I'm just gonna sit here and be quiet. You talk to me, you vent to me. You get your frustrations out. Anything that is in your mind. I was like, you literally throw them at me. This is what I'm here to do. And he did, and he got upset. He got angry. He was crying. And then he got to the us conversation, and he said, I can't really see you anymore.

Andrea Gunning (30:46)

Leo didn't want to be a burden.

Bernie Brown (30:49)

He was like, look, I can't promise you anything if this is how my life is going to end. There's bits that may not be pretty. And I was like, look, I really don't care. I was like, if I have to be a complete secret, even if we have to break up, just, I want to be your friend. It wasn't about any of the sex or the relationship for me. It was this person that was in front of me.

Andrea Gunning (31:11)

To Bernie's surprise, Leo even brought up his will.

Bernie Brown (31:15)

He was like, obviously, he can't change that, because if he put my name in there, all questions will come up of who. And I was like, I really do not care. I was like, I literally do not care about any of that. I was like, if you get to that point, I will be here as much as you need me to.

Andrea Gunning (31:35)

Leo couldn't come out to his family, so in order for Bernie to stay in his life, he suggested Bernie pretend to be his assistant or driver. It was the kind of arrangement Bernie wouldn't have agreed to under normal circumstances, but he was willing to do anything to make sure he could care for Leo. So he agreed.

Bernie Brown (31:53)

And I meant it 100%, not a second guess in my mind.

Andrea Gunning (31:59)

So Bernie immediately focused on helping Leo make sense of his diagnosis.

Bernie Brown (32:04)

I went online, I researched the hell out of it, down to all different methods. And I. I mean, I. I did go crazy with it, to be honest. I was there for at least an entire 24 hours Googling, researching what this meant experimental drugs. And like, I just put, went to town with everything that I could find out.

Andrea Gunning (32:26)

But Leo had already accepted that he didn't have much time left.

Bernie Brown (32:31)

He was talking about that he might not actually go for chemo because he just wants to just end it on his terms in Switzerland. That was a conversation that we had. And then that's when we went on to a conversation about, I think I need to start living my life while I've got it. And I was like, right, okay, so let's do that.

Andrea Gunning (32:48)

For Leo, living his life to the fullest meant finally launching his own watch restoration business that would be his legacy. He had a collection of incredible luxury watches, and he couldn't take them with him.

Bernie Brown (33:03)

One day he said to me, I've got all of these watches. I might just start selling them because I kind of like swap and a buy and trade on this site. And he's like, I kind of want to build something. So instantly I kicked in. I was like, I can build you a website. Let's register this company. And I did. We had quite a few business meetings on how, how the logo's gonna look, what it's called, setting up all of the social media for it. And I sat on my little Photoshop and I'd done the logo, and the company was called the Vintage Crown.

Andrea Gunning (33:35)

Leo wanted Bernie to list all of his watches and post them online. So he brought his entire collection to Bernie's house.

Bernie Brown (33:43)

We came up and he literally had about two, three trunks of watches. I mean, I've got all the pictures on my phone still. There was countless Rolexes. There was Patek Philippe, There was Van Cleef and Arpels. They were stunning. There must have been, I'd say, close to a hundred, 100 watches in my lounge on this table. And there was this very, very old Rolex. The glass, the watch face was quite rounded.

Andrea Gunning (34:15)

Bernie picked up the watch. It was heavy and ornate.

Bernie Brown (34:19)

He was like, this is probably the most expensive watch that I own. And I was like, well, how much is it worth? And he was like, you check it out. So he's like, go on the Rolex website, turn the watch over. I typed in the serial number and it came in at 1.2 million. At that point I probably had about £100 in my bank account. So I'm like, 1.2 million, 2 million. It was just insane to think of the money that was sat right in front of me.

Andrea Gunning (35:04)

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Sponsor/Advertiser Voice (37:26)

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S P500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investors Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comdisclosures

Andrea Gunning (38:30)

Leo had a staggering collection of luxury watches and as Bernie helped Leo launch his new watch business, Bernie got a taste of that world. Like when Bernie came with him to run errands at high end London department

Bernie Brown (38:43)

stores and whenever we walked in to Harrod's they knew of him. They addressed him by his name, talking about previous purchases that he had made and full conversations.

Andrea Gunning (38:55)

He even asked Bernie to go to Selfridges, another luxury department store in London for an exclusive event.

Bernie Brown (39:03)

It's a private party, a VIP and but it would be quite nice if you can come with me just to experience a bit of that lifestyle. And I was like absolutely, yeah, I'll come out. So we got dressed, made our way into central London, walk into Selfridges and it was red carpet, all of that.

Andrea Gunning (39:22)

This event was a big deal and Leo was a big deal there. Everyone greeted him by name and immediately people were vying for his attention.

Bernie Brown (39:33)

So he went into this private VIP area through the door.

Andrea Gunning (39:37)

Leah was there to look at a

Bernie Brown (39:39)

specific watch and then he sent me a message and was like, okay, we're kind of done with the finance side, do you want to come in? So I was like absolutely. So I went in and it was a private room with the head of European sales. The room was gorgeous. We had hors d' Oeuvres that were laid out and the watches were laid out in front of me. These ridiculous. I mean, the price of a house, these watches in front of us. And it was just this woman, Leo and me.

Andrea Gunning (40:09)

Leo bought two watches that day as gifts for family members. With Bernie's help, Leo's watch business got off the ground. And as a thank you, he would let Bernie borrow some of the pieces.

Bernie Brown (40:21)

If we'd go for dinner, he'd give me a Rolex or a Patek Philippe in. He then called one day and he said, this Rolex has come my way for me to recondition and to. To sell. It's just a Submariner. I've got quite a few of them anyway. But he was like, I thought of you.

Andrea Gunning (40:38)

Leo was making him an offer.

Bernie Brown (40:41)

He was like, look, you buy it off of me for 20,000, I will recondition it, I'll make it look as good as new, I will polish it, I will have it back up. And it's. It's usually worth about 30 to 40,000,

Andrea Gunning (40:55)

20 grand up front. It would be a huge investment for Bernie and then Leo would resell it at a profit of at least £10,000.

Bernie Brown (41:06)

Of course, it would be amazing. That extra ten grand for me at this minute in time would open up doors. I've never had just a £10,000 sum

Andrea Gunning (41:14)

in my account, but Bernie didn't have £20,000 just lying around.

Bernie Brown (41:20)

And I was like, right. I was like, at the first, I just don't have anywhere near that money whatsoever, literally. I think for my entire life, it's been paycheck to paycheck. I'm just very clever with it. Nowhere do I have that kind of money.

Andrea Gunning (41:34)

Leo had an idea. What about Bernie's clothing business? It wasn't as successful as the watch sales.

Bernie Brown (41:42)

So he said, well, the clothes, it was like, you know, it's taking too much of your time. Is it really doing anything? And I was like, it's getting a bit tiring. So he said, look, why don't you just sell, sell all of the clothes just in bulk. Somebody will buy it, sell it, sell the website off, like, sell the business, get this watch and then use that lump sum for how, whatever you want to do your next project.

Andrea Gunning (42:06)

Bernie had a few ideas for new businesses he wanted to start. The investment in the watch represented a new chapter, so he started crunching the numbers.

Bernie Brown (42:16)

I was like, look, I can take this money out of all of my credit cards, but if I do that with my bills, my wage in retail will it won't even cover half of all them repayments in one go by maxing out them cars. So he said, look, once I've got the money, it will take about a week for the watch to get here. So I will recondition it, I will get it sent to you. You'll sell it before you next get paid. I get it, but I'd never do anything to hurt you. This is for your benefit. Look, if it's too much, then, you know what, let's just not do it. Let's just, just forget about it completely. And by that point I was like, I'd already kind of imagined if I sell all of this stuff and I take from these credit cards, by the end of it, I could have 10 to 20,000 pounds, which is just mine to do with. So I was like, right, okay, I trust him 100%. Let's just do this.

Andrea Gunning (43:10)

Bernie was in.

Bernie Brown (43:12)

So I sold the website off and then I think that only got about half of it, maybe a little bit more. And then I did have a few credit cards. So I got rid of the final bits of the clothes took out from every credit card that I had, maxed it out and gave it to him.

Andrea Gunning (43:33)

Bernie got £15,000 from maxed out credit cards. For the rest of the money, he took out an incredibly high interest loan.

Bernie Brown (43:42)

These payday loans, the interest rate is 79% per month, and that's more than what you've borrowed.

Andrea Gunning (43:50)

Bernie was putting everything on the line. He sent Leo the 20,000 and Leo ordered the watch.

Bernie Brown (43:57)

It had been delivered to his Hyde

Andrea Gunning (44:00)

park address, but it was the week of Christmas and Leo wasn't home. He was at the castle.

Bernie Brown (44:07)

He has responsibilities around the uk, so he was up there doing official business

Andrea Gunning (44:12)

and he'll get to it with the holidays. It could be a week before Leo got to the watch. That meant weeks before they could resell it.

Bernie Brown (44:20)

That's when I started panicking because at that point, there is absolutely no way that I am going to be able to cover that next payment. And I told him that I am getting nervous because I know the tsunami that's coming if this isn't paid.

Andrea Gunning (44:37)

But Leo was calm. He handled deals like this all the time.

Bernie Brown (44:42)

He just kept reassuring me, saying, look, there's a little bit of a delay. I've got a buyer, I've got somebody that's interested. As soon as I can get my hands down to this watch, it will take me one day to recondition it because it's in very good quality and I will literally have A buyer for you. Within 24 hours

Andrea Gunning (45:03)

after that, Leo seemed to change. The loving calls and texts started dwindling.

Bernie Brown (45:10)

The communication with me and him went very sparse. The morning messages, which by this point had constantly continued. If I had even to the point, if he was staying at mine and I woke up at four in the morning to go to work. When he woke up, I would still get that morning message.

Andrea Gunning (45:27)

And now those texts stopped coming. Their connection started to feel less like a romantic relationship and more like a business partnership.

Bernie Brown (45:37)

It went from loving and just amazing conversations to all about the watch.

Andrea Gunning (45:48)

For Bernie, this cold shoulder really hurt. Obviously, he was concerned about the watch, but that wasn't what he really cared about.

Bernie Brown (46:00)

I am fully in depth. I am fully in love with him.

Andrea Gunning (46:06)

In seven months, Leo had become the center point of his life.

Bernie Brown (46:10)

He was my world at that point. And there was nothing else that I was concentrated on. I had stolen, stop talking to my friends, even my best friend. I'd stop talking to my family. And all of a sudden this person is completely disregarding me. I was panicking then. I was then going back to that state. What have I done? What have I said? I know it's Christmas. I don't want to contact him too much because I know that he's working and he's probably with people and with his family. But at the same time, I'm panicking because I'm not getting that response. Then comes Christmas Eve, and he kind of goes silent a little bit. And then I get Christmas Eve. I get a few messages, very cold. And it was like, I'm with people. I can't talk. I was like, okay, I just wanted to wish you a Merry Christmas.

Andrea Gunning (47:03)

It was important for Leo to spend time with his family because he had so little time left. Maybe the reality of his diagnosis was finally hitting him. Bernie understood why Leo might be pulling away, but it still stung.

Bernie Brown (47:19)

Next morning, I did actually get quite a nice message. It's just like, merry Christmas, handsome. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I instantly my mood, I was uplifted. I was like, oh, it's okay. What's your plans for today? It was. I went straight into that puppy mode, like he could do no wrong. And he said, look, I'm with my family all day. I won't be able to contact you for the next two days. I was like, okay, that's absolutely fine. Look, I get it. It's Christmas. You are supposed to spend that with your family.

Andrea Gunning (47:52)

Bernie spent that Christmas alone, waiting for a message from Leo. But that day, Bernie noticed something Strange, it seemed like Leo was actually spending Christmas Day with another man, someone Bernie had never seen before.

Bernie Brown (48:12)

There was a picture on his WhatsApp update and it was him, but there was somebody else in the background. There was this guy just walking towards the camera, looking directly in the camera as if he was going to say something. And it was the inside of a church. And it just bugged me for a few days.

Andrea Gunning (48:32)

Bernie stared at the photo, practically memorizing every detail.

Bernie Brown (48:36)

Anyway, so on the 27th, he messaged and he was like, sorry, I've not been. I've been with family, this, that and the other. I was like, okay, how was your Christmas? Did you get up so much? And he was like, no, we just really stayed around the castle. And then we didn't really do anything. I was like, oh, what about the church? I was like, what church? And then it was just like, oh. I was like, oh, I just saw your Update on your WhatsApp and it was a picture of a church. I was like, I don't know what you're talking about. You didn't see anything.

Andrea Gunning (49:02)

But Bernie had looked at the photo over and over. He knew what he saw.

Bernie Brown (49:08)

I was like, no, it was, I didn't do an update. That was no update. And then he got into such denial. He was adamant and quite nasty with it that I completely made it up. I did not see it. There was nothing on his profile.

Andrea Gunning (49:26)

It was the first time Leo had acted like this. He was defensive and angry over something so small. He knew it meant Leo might be hiding something. So Bernie pulled back a bit.

Bernie Brown (49:39)

I kind of slowed down messaging him. I then get a call again quite late at night and he's like, I've just had a massive argument with my family.

Andrea Gunning (49:48)

On the other end of the phone, Leo was hysterical and he was like,

Bernie Brown (49:53)

Bernie, I can't take this. I can't take this life anymore. The stress that I've been under. I just don't like my family. I don't want to do this anymore. Can you come and get me? So of course, I've then said yes instantly. Where are you? Calm down. Stay on the phone with me.

Andrea Gunning (50:10)

Leo sent an address. It was a five hour drive from London. So Bernie got in the car and stayed on the phone with Leo while he drove through the night to meet him. At 2am he picked up Leo and brought them to a hotel.

Bernie Brown (50:25)

We stayed the night. We had a long conversation about his stress levels and he's sorry that he's been distant and he doesn't know how to cope with this as well as his diagnosis. And at the end of this, he'll get the watch. He's going to go down. He'll get it, and if he hasn't got it by this point, he will give me the money and then sell it on himself. And I just felt, seeing. And he was in tears. He went asleep and I was stroking his hair. It was as if this guy was broken, broken with life.

Andrea Gunning (50:57)

There in the hotel room, Bernie finally felt close to Leo again. Leo needed him. And Bernie would do anything to make him happy. The next morning, Leo seemed renewed, back to his old self. He confessed to Bernie that he had been hiding something. Now he was finally ready to talk about it.

Bernie Brown (51:21)

It's like, so I've got a serious question that I need to ask you. And I've been thinking about this. With everything that's been going on, I was like, okay. And it was like, I've had enough of this entire life that I've. I have to do and I'm done with it. I want to move away. And he was like, I want to move somewhere in Scotland. Would you come with me? And I was like, sorry. I was like, what? I was like, I've seen this house. I've been thinking about this for a long time. And I was gonna go on my own. And that's why I've been distant, because I didn't know what I was going to do. But I want you to come with me.

Andrea Gunning (52:01)

Leo was dead serious. He was ready to put in an offer on a house.

Bernie Brown (52:06)

I've already contacted the estate agent. This house was a full on castle in the Scottish Highlands. When you think the quintessential English castle, it was exactly that.

Andrea Gunning (52:22)

They looked at the listing together and started imagining a new life there. They wouldn't have to hide from Leo's family or the press. Bernie could take care of Leo as his cancer progressed and whatever came next, they could face it together.

Bernie Brown (52:38)

It's like, I just want it to be me and you. And I was like, yes. And it's difficult now to really kind of explain exactly how it felt because his world at certain points starts to crumble and he has to get what he can do and run to create another life for himself. But in the end, it was all a lie.

Andrea Gunning (53:28)

Travel smarter, not harder. And America's best value inn by Sinesta. With convenient locations from coast to coast and value packed comfort at every turn, it's a practical choice for road trips, quick getaways and everyday travel that keeps things simple without sacrificing comfort and when you're a Sonesta TravelPass member, staying at America's Best Value Inn means earning points towards free nights, upgrades and more every time you stay. Go to Sonesta.com to book your stay and unlock the best rates with Sonesta Travel Pass here today, Rome tomorrow. Join now@sonesta.com Terms and conditions apply. You live for plot twists and never take the boring route. Sound familiar? Then it's time to board a cruise that feels like an adventure novel you can't put down. Virgin Voyages is redefining getaways with all in voyage pricing over $1,000 in value. Wi Fi 20 plus dining spots, group fitness and entertainment. The always included luxury you deserve without extra charges. You don't. Simple, transparent, fair, no hidden charges, just smooth sailing with a side of thrill. Escape to the Caribbean? Think Grand Cayman, Jamaica, Puerto Rico with seven night cruises that let you dig deeper into every destination. Or plan ahead for 20252026 with new routes to Aruba, St Lucia, Iceland and even the British Isles. The twist? It's adult only so the vibe stays immersive, exciting and all about you. Private beach clubs, themed sailings, onboard parties and luxury cabins built for deep relaxation. You bring the curiosity they'll supply the unforgettable. Learn more@virgin voyages.com or contact your travel advisor. When it comes to advancing your education, you have more options than you think. At Rasmussen University they find ways to remove barriers, not build them like a new laptop if you're eligible and enroll in select online or on campus programs. That also means flexible and engaging online courses and resources, tuition saving options if you qualify, exceptional student support and much more online nationally or check out their 20 campuses across six states. Start when you're ready and get the support you need. Visit rasmussen.edu.

Sponsor/Advertiser Voice (55:51)

support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely custom, customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comdisclosures Leo had

Andrea Gunning (56:53)

been looking to buy a castle in the Scottish countryside where he could live out the rest of his life the way he wanted to with Bernie.

Bernie Brown (57:01)

And it was like, I want to put an offer in and move within the month. I'm just done with all of this. I'm like, do you know what? We've got one life, let's do it.

Andrea Gunning (57:16)

Leo drove them back to London. It was a five hour drive and they spent every minute of it playing, planning their new life.

Bernie Brown (57:24)

We had designed this entire life down to the jobs we would do, the businesses we would build on their drive.

Andrea Gunning (57:35)

Leo's grandparents called. They were nearby. So Leo decided to meet up with them and spend the rest of the day with his grandparents. Bernie could drive the Bentley back to London. So halfway through their trip, Leo pulled off at a gas station where his grandparents were waiting. It was the first time Bernie had seen anyone in Leo's family. Leo asked Bernie to act like they were just friends.

Bernie Brown (58:03)

He went over to this couple, they must have been in their late 60s, and his granddad went to go to the bathroom. So I was like, okay, I need the toilet anyway. So I was like, I'll go. And then I went in and then he came in after me. So I was like, okay.

Andrea Gunning (58:23)

On the way out of the bathroom, Bernie struck up a conversation with Leo's granddad.

Bernie Brown (58:27)

And he was like, oh, well, we live in Sussex. That's where the castle was.

Andrea Gunning (58:32)

They chatted about life in Sussex, then headed back to their cars. Leo went with his grandparents and Bernie drove alone back to London. Bernie was excited about starting his new life in Scotland, but his financial stress about the watch was mounting. It wouldn't be ready to resell in time for Bernie's next loan payment.

Bernie Brown (58:51)

I'm panicking now. I had missed one direct debit. February's was coming up and it still was not happening.

Andrea Gunning (58:59)

As the weeks went on, Bernie kept asking his boyfriend for an update on the watch.

Bernie Brown (59:04)

The watch is being almost dangled. It's like, oh, I've, I'll bring it up. Can I. I'll come up to yours. I Was like, okay, fine, I'll bring the watch. Yep. He'd get to the house, no watch. Oh, I forgot. I didn't go home yet. For whatever reason, the watch would always either be forgotten or once the cleaner accidentally moved it and it was lost in the house somewhere. So he needs to go back and look for it.

Andrea Gunning (59:29)

It was getting absurd that Leo couldn't get the watch sorted out. Sure, there was a lot happening in Leo's life, but waiting this long was affecting Bernie's.

Bernie Brown (59:39)

There was something inside that I was questioning a lot more, but I was still hooked. I still agreed to go to Scotland with him.

Andrea Gunning (59:49)

Just weeks before, Leo had needed Bernie to drive through the night to be there for him. Leo showed him the house he was putting an offer on. Now Bernie wasn't even getting a text or a call back for days.

Bernie Brown (60:02)

The gaslighting started. We'd have this call, for instance, him like, what are you doing today? Let's have a call tonight. Yep, okay. And then we'd have a call, arrange something. And then he would be like, we didn't arrange it. I was like, well, we did. Because, you know, I put it here. I put it in my diary. I put it. No, we didn't have that conversation.

Andrea Gunning (60:22)

Bernie knew that Leo isolated when he was stressed about his cancer or his family. Bernie wondered if things had gotten worse. But all the worrying was starting to take a toll on his own health.

Bernie Brown (60:36)

End of January, February, and beginning of March was, and still is to a degree, a blur. I got into the worst state of mind. I had to take time off of work for depression. I got massively depressed. I lost so much weight, I didn't eat.

Andrea Gunning (60:58)

Bernie knew something was wrong and he started spiraling.

Bernie Brown (61:02)

Of course, like anyone, I went straight into he's seeing somebody else mode. Somebody else is on the scene. And I went into that whole whirlwind. I did then do something cheap because I was like, I can't do this no more. I literally cannot do this anymore.

Andrea Gunning (61:21)

With Leo, across the country, Bernie got an idea.

Bernie Brown (61:25)

Do you know what? I think I should download Grindr again. And with Grindr, you can change location and search for profiles within that location.

Andrea Gunning (61:36)

So Bernie created a fake Grindr profile and set it to Leo's location.

Bernie Brown (61:41)

Now, I knew his type. So I found a decent looking, ginger guy, put that on my profile, and I spent a good day at the location looking through profiles that didn't have pictures on. Lo and behold, he found my profile.

Andrea Gunning (62:01)

Leo sent the first message.

Bernie Brown (62:04)

So we're just talking. I'm like, what do you do? He's like, I'm a horologist. You know, I deal with watches. And he went straight into, you know, I'm a part of the Howard family. And then he sent me pictures. It was him.

Andrea Gunning (62:17)

At the same time Leo was talking to fake Bernie on Grindr. He was avoiding real Bernie's texts.

Bernie Brown (62:23)

He would reply to this person for literally about an hour, but I'm getting no reply. So I'm like, do you know what? I'm done now. That's it. I need to get this watch and I need to get it soon. So I did actually confront him with it. And I was like, I know you've been speaking to people. And I sent him a screenshot of the profile. And of course he was like, how dare you try putting it on me? And I was like, I didn't do anything. And it's like, you have no right, and went off on one. And I'm like, you know what? It's absolutely fine. Just give me the watch. That's when he turned nasty. I was like, you're not getting the watch. You don't deserve the watch.

Andrea Gunning (63:07)

Regardless of Leo's royal status or cancer diagnosis, Bernie wasn't going to allow someone to speak to him that way. He hung up. Then Leo started blowing up his phone.

Bernie Brown (63:19)

You know, I really love you and all of this. And what about Scotland?

Andrea Gunning (63:23)

Bernie told him he wasn't coming to Scotland. Their relationship was over. The only thing he wanted from Leo was the watch.

Bernie Brown (63:33)

So he's like, look, I'm going to bring the watch. It's finally ready. I was like, oh, my God, I'm actually going to get this watch now. And he was like, I'm going to bring it down.

Andrea Gunning (63:41)

They set a time and place to meet.

Bernie Brown (63:43)

He was like, are you going to be okay seeing me? You know, it may be a strain. And I'm like, listen, I'm sure I'm going to be fine. Just make sure you bring the watch. Turns up, no watch.

Andrea Gunning (63:57)

That was the last time they ever spoke.

Bernie Brown (64:00)

I said, enough is enough. I'm worth more than this. And I blocked his number. I had just been like, I'm never getting that watch. I need to deal with what I can, and this is the position that I'm in.

Andrea Gunning (64:15)

Bernie says he was a shell of himself. Over the course of nine months, his entire life had been rearranged. All of his savings were gone. He had taken out loans and maxed out every credit card he had. It left Bernie in a dark place.

Bernie Brown (64:31)

My best friends literally descended on My house and were like, we've never seen you like this and we need to pick it up. If I didn't have my friends around me at the time, I don't know if I would actually be here to this day.

Andrea Gunning (64:46)

I genuinely, genuinely believe that Bernie's friends supported him emotionally. But he was facing his financial crisis alone.

Bernie Brown (64:56)

I had to just bow and say, I can't afford it. Default. And my credit score at one point went from the highest it had ever been straight down to zero. I'd never even seen zero on a credit score before. I was working in retail and I had all this debt and the debts that were coming out and on a monthly basis because of everything that happened was higher than my entire pay, let alone when you take away bills and utilities and all of that.

Andrea Gunning (65:32)

Bernie was overwhelmed with shame. He was at risk of getting his car repossessed or his wages garnished. He was able to make a payment plan, but in the meantime, he had very little money to live on.

Bernie Brown (65:45)

He didn't take an obsession insane amount of money from me monetary wise. But what he did do was absolutely wipe me out. At one point, I didn't have the money to go to the shop to buy food. The monetary amount, for me, 20,000 could have easily been 5 million. It was all that I had to my name to survive.

Andrea Gunning (66:14)

£20,000 was a drop in the bucket for Leo. After all, his family lived in a historic castle. He drove a Bentley. But £20,000 was everything to Bernie, and Leo knew that.

Bernie Brown (66:28)

I've reminded him time and time again. He knew exactly what my financial background was, what my current financial situation was. He knew about all of that, but he still pushed to take them credit cards. He knew all of that was coming. And I reminded him many times every single day almost that this is hitting. He absolutely did not care.

Andrea Gunning (66:54)

Slowly, Bernie came to terms with his financial reality. He continued leaning on his friends for emotional support. That's when one of his friends said something he hadn't considered before. This was theft. He'd been robbed.

Bernie Brown (67:11)

She was like, he's gonna carry on doing it to other people until somebody actually puts a stop to it. At that point, I decided that actually I will contact the police because this isn't right.

Andrea Gunning (67:25)

Bernie walked into the police station and filed a report.

Bernie Brown (67:28)

They did take it seriously. I gave everything I had to them and they had absolutely no idea who this person was.

Andrea Gunning (67:38)

According to the police database, Leo Howard didn't exist.

Bernie Brown (67:43)

I emailed Arundel Castle, which is the official residence of the Duke of Norfolk, and There was absolutely no record of Leo Howard, Leo Bose Howard, or absolutely anything. So then I started doing my own research. But there was absolutely no trace.

Andrea Gunning (68:04)

Bernie knew the VIN numbers to Leo's Range Rover and Bentley.

Bernie Brown (68:07)

All of the car registration numbers had completely been erased, which is very hard to do. I don't know how that's possible.

Andrea Gunning (68:16)

The VIN numbers weren't listed on any database. It was like the cars never existed. But Bernie remembered riding in those cars, driving those cars. It was all so strange. He was starting to wonder what was even real.

Bernie Brown (68:34)

It was as if I had completely imagined the entire year, completely imagined it, because this person just did not exist.

Andrea Gunning (68:45)

Leo had vanished into thin air. Even the police had hit a dead end.

Bernie Brown (68:52)

The police could not recognize his picture. They had to just close the investigation. It must have been a good year later. And I get a call when it comes up and it's the police officer that was originally dealing with the case. And I answered and there was a nicer tears, you know, how are you? And then he said, do you watch Channel 4? And I said, to be honest, no. And he said, right, okay, there's this documentary that's just been shown on Channel four and from that I've been given a case. And he said, everything that's been described in the case and on the documentary is almost identical to my story.

Andrea Gunning (69:38)

Bernie had no idea that across the country other people had been reporting a very similar crime to the police. A broader case was developing. In fact, the story was already out as a true crime documentary. It was about a prolific and highly manipulative scam artist operating all over the uk. The detective calling wanted to know if Bernie recognized the man at the center of it.

Bernie Brown (70:04)

He said, can you just Google and have a look? As soon as he said that, I had that sinking feeling. My heart dropped to the ground. I knew it would be him. My hand started shaking and my brain went completely dead on just how to Google something. But I managed it. I got there and it was his face.

Andrea Gunning (70:36)

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Sponsor/Advertiser Voice (73:14)

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely custom, customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for Informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures

Andrea Gunning (74:17)

a year after Bernie first went to the police, he got a call from a detective. They'd linked his report to a serial fraudster. Someone who'd been conning men and women across the UK with the same mix of charm, money and elaborate lies.

Bernie Brown (74:33)

There was a lot of press around it and I broke down, I absolutely broke down in tears.

Andrea Gunning (74:41)

I. The story had exploded. Leo's face was all over the news. After Bernie got over the initial shock, a new feeling flooded him.

Bernie Brown (74:51)

The wave of relief. Now I have proof that it happens because bearing in mind at that point, the only person who had ever met him was my best friend. We went out for one night. Apart from that, he didn't want to meet anyone, he didn't want to be photographed, anyone that I told this story to. There was always, I'm sure, an element of doubt because it was so extraordinary to happen to me or to anyone. When I saw this, it was that feeling, that overwhelming, almost joyous feeling of I told you this did happen.

Andrea Gunning (75:34)

There were dozens of articles. Bernie clicked on one about a woman who discovered her fiance was a fraud. He built a five year relationship in order to scam her out of £30,000.

Bernie Brown (75:47)

I read the article and everything that happened to me had happened to her.

Andrea Gunning (75:55)

Bernie knew that the documentary might hold answers to as many unanswered questions about Leo.

Bernie Brown (76:01)

We sat down and we watched it and as soon as I press play, it starts with his face again. I got that sinking feeling. It was surreal.

Andrea Gunning (76:17)

Scene after scene, Bernie realized he'd lived the same exact moments with the same con man. The luxury watch business a scam, the cancer diagnosis fake.

Bernie Brown (76:30)

I'm heightened at that point. And the Bentley came up and I was like, that's. That was the Bentley. And the watch that I was handling and the watch that I was supposed to be buying was actually in the documentary. Just even little parts of the story. I was like, yes.

Andrea Gunning (76:48)

He told me that even though it was someone else, his story, it was like watching his own true crime documentary. And he learned Leo had a dozen aliases.

Bernie Brown (77:02)

After the documentary, I did get emotional because I think that then sunk in exactly the severity of what was happening. I was just a number at that point. Straight away, I found the woman in the documentary on social media and connected. And I remember the first message was like, you don't know me, I've just seen your documentary. And I met him such and such date. She came back and we Had a few telephone conversations.

Andrea Gunning (77:38)

They had so much in common. This other victim helped Bernie fill in the gaps in his knowledge and piece together a timeline. Most shocking of all, he learned three

Bernie Brown (77:49)

weeks before he had messaged me he had actually absconded from prison. He was serving a sentence for fraud, and he was on the run when he met me.

Andrea Gunning (78:03)

Looking back, this explains something about Leo's behavior. How he was always nervous around the police.

Bernie Brown (78:10)

He never really liked the police. He was kind of scared of the police to the point he would wait around the corner if there was police cars driving past, he was scared.

Andrea Gunning (78:19)

When Bernie met Leo, he wasn't in that campground because it was the only place he could be himself. He was there because he was in hiding. Leo had escaped while he was serving a five year prison sentence for defrauding another victim. And there were many more. He had victims across England.

Bernie Brown (78:39)

There was me and one other person in the north of London. All the other victims were in the south of England, in Kent, in Sussex. The person that was in the documentary was in the Isle of Wight when he escaped from prison. He had then obviously traveled and he was in hiding.

Andrea Gunning (79:05)

What was so chilling to Bernie was

Bernie Brown (79:07)

that the time the documentary was being filmed was when I was with him.

Andrea Gunning (79:16)

And Bernie wasn't the only person Leo was scamming while he was on the run. Remember Leo's grandparents who Bernie met at the gas station?

Bernie Brown (79:26)

I told the police my story and I said, look, I came into contact with his nan and granddad. They're like, no, that was another victim. I was like, wow, he was doing exactly the same to them.

Andrea Gunning (79:42)

If Leo stayed behind bars, many people wouldn't have been victimized. He was a fugitive. The police were looking for him. But the problem was the police weren't as savvy as Leo.

Bernie Brown (79:55)

Now we do have a national database which comes up, but they didn't put him on that. So all the time that I was with him, there were actually campaigns to find this person. However, the police don't talk to each other over here. And when I had raised my case, they had no idea who it was until the documentary came out.

Andrea Gunning (80:21)

That's when police stations across the country started connecting the dots.

Bernie Brown (80:27)

Channel 4 had done so many press releases that it really got the national scope. And I think we're on about 10 people that have come forward and raised a case. Because of the heightened press and because all of this was going around, he decided to hand himself in.

Andrea Gunning (80:51)

Leo was sent back to prison and Bernie hoped justice would finally be served.

Bernie Brown (80:56)

But he still Qualified for early release. The mind boggles, but that's where we are and that's what we have to deal with, and that's what we are currently facing.

Andrea Gunning (81:09)

Through this whole process, Bernie was able to get a true understanding of who this man really was. He even heard from people who knew the real Leo before he became a criminal.

Bernie Brown (81:20)

I've had so many messages over social media and TikTok where people have gone to school with him, and he used to make up stories to get people in trouble. He naturally gravitated towards fraud from a very, very early age. His background is so far from the Royal family, it's unbelievable. From my knowledge, he is Polish heritage, very broken upbringing, and he, in all intents and purposes, created his own system to survive. And his system was to fraudulently gain money from anywhere he could to create the life that he saw himself and that he wanted.

Andrea Gunning (82:09)

And the life he wanted was one where he was wealthy, powerful and important.

Bernie Brown (82:16)

He wanted to be part of the royal family setting, and he believed that he was destined for more. He had created his own reality. And I think the longer he believed it, the more he believed it.

Andrea Gunning (82:35)

Creating a string of fraudulent identities was more than just a dream of being rich. It was pathological.

Bernie Brown (82:43)

Every time he created this Persona, this person, he threw himself so hard into it that he then started to believe that he was this person. And I do think there's mental issues there.

Andrea Gunning (83:00)

It's been three years since he met Leo, and Bernie still questions Leo's true motivations.

Bernie Brown (83:07)

Was his intention to outright go in and commit fraud on every single person that he encountered? Or was it that his world, at certain points starts to crumble and he has to get what he can do and run to create another life for himself, that other life that he's built up that is then crumbling?

Andrea Gunning (83:33)

He thought back to their first date when he was asked to take off his clothes. Was that a test? Was it blackmail?

Bernie Brown (83:41)

I've tried going back and be like, what did happen? Why did it happen? I have absolutely no idea. But I know it comes down to control.

Andrea Gunning (84:10)

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Sponsor/Advertiser Voice (86:35)

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type in any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by open to the Public Investors Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures.

Andrea Gunning (87:40)

After having his heart broken and his own financial stability destroyed, Bernie learned who Leo truly was. He was left picking up the pieces in the aftermath.

Bernie Brown (87:51)

I don't know whether this is still my subconscious emotional tie, but I think there is an element that he had gone through so much and then he met me and he had said many a times that he was gay, he just couldn't be out. And I do believe that there's an element that I wasn't his typical target and he wasn't there initially for money. And I do believe at some point he did get emotionally connected because going after me for money wouldn't have made any sense.

Andrea Gunning (88:32)

Bernie still wonders if that dream of going to Scotland together was a genuine offer to run away together at some point.

Bernie Brown (88:41)

I, I do believe that he thought that he could get away from it all and escape with me and live that life that he had in his mind at the time. And I think potentially once it started getting a bit too real with me, that's when he went into what I would call default mode. And that's when the watch came, because the watch conversation came very, very late in the day and then it ended very, very quick because he had to have a new supply and he obviously he couldn't leave empty handed.

Andrea Gunning (89:21)

Bernie's right. Leo never left empty handed. In fact, he was running a major fraud scheme and the watches were at the center of it.

Bernie Brown (89:32)

Some businesses have come forward and said that that person had sold them a fake watch. And bear in mind, these are big companies, they know how to evaluate watches.

Andrea Gunning (89:48)

As more information came out, he learned that Leo defrauded Harrod's department store out of a half a million pounds. It was all part of Leo's scam.

Bernie Brown (89:58)

He was on top of his game with regards to watches. That he knew how to see a fake, a very good fake, and improve it to the level that it was a very convincing actual piece. He scammed half a million pounds out of Harrods. Like you are a different level, a completely different level when you can do that. The knowledge that Leo had on watches, watch brands, the mechanics, the mechanical workings, there's no doubt in my mind he has studied watches for a long time.

Andrea Gunning (90:41)

Leo also knew cars. He scammed Bentley dealerships and financial institutions. He always had multiple scams going at once.

Bernie Brown (90:52)

Absolutely the mind boggles I do not understand that.

Andrea Gunning (90:58)

In February 2025, Leo was sentenced to 10 months in prison for having absconded from his original fraud conviction and five year sentence. It's unclear whether he will be criminally charged with respect to his conduct. While he was on the run, Bernie took to TikTok where he shared his story. Through that experience he has found language to describe Leo and what he did.

Bernie Brown (91:23)

TikTok was instrumental in me healing and starting that healing process. Somebody had commented on one of my posts and I went onto their profile and they talk about narcissist and narcissistic behavior. Everything from the signs to the results of what it actually does to you for the long term and instantly I was like this is exactly what he was doing. With the amount of gaslighting, love bombing, breadcrumbing, you get so heavily sucked in that it does actually change your makeup and it changes the way you think. If you said in six months time somebody is going to be in your life and you are going to be hanging on every word. You're not going to speak to your friends, you're not going to speak to your family, you're going to doubt everything that you say. I would literally have a laugh and say carry on drinking. It would never happen to me. But it did.

Andrea Gunning (92:30)

He'll carry the experience with him for the rest of his life.

Bernie Brown (92:34)

Your trust in other people after this is almost non existent.

Andrea Gunning (92:40)

He lost a lot. But now Bernie is focused on what he does have.

Bernie Brown (92:46)

I have a beautiful soon to be husband and I've got a little puppy and I've got amazing friends and family and actually neighbors. So I'm content. He will never ever in his life have what I have sat in this chair now and I think that's just incredibly sad. I don't hate him. I don't think too much other than just sadness.

Andrea Gunning (93:20)

Bernie wants to be a resource for other people who've been victims of scam artists and narcissists and the best way for him to do that is on his TikTok. Ernie Brown.

Bernie Brown (93:33)

When I went on and I saw the tiktoks around narcissism and around the discard, the gaslighting, all of that, that for me was just the awakening moment. Now I can do that for somebody else out there and it does take a little bit of courage, especially if you're going through it or you are very fresh from a nasty narcissistic encounter. I just want to be that point of call and be able to just listen.

Andrea Gunning (94:05)

We end every weekly episode with the same question. Why do you want to share your story?

Bernie Brown (94:12)

I know for a fact that there's thousands of Leos around the world. That's why this conversation, I think, is massively, massively important. You know, if I'd have known about certain things beforehand, maybe I'd have acted differently. Maybe I wouldn't have gone through what I'd have gone through. Maybe I'd have acted differently halfway through, and I wouldn't have suffered as much. But you know what? What's happened to me is done. But if I can share and open somebody else's eyes and say, you know, if this ain't right, then it's worth it.

Andrea Gunning (94:56)

On the next episode of Betrayal Weekly I'm in shock and disbelief. Like, just nauseatingly sick. The reality, I guess, is slowly sinking in that my life is all a lie. He's in the kitchen going to the coffee machine to make himself an espresso, and he literally looks at me and

Bernie Brown (95:16)

shrugs and he's like so.

Andrea Gunning (95:27)

If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team or want to tell us your Betrayal story, email us@betrayalpodgmail.com that's betrayalpodmail.com or follow us on Instagram etrayalpod. You can also connect with me on Instagram tsundreagunning. To access our newsletter, view additional content and connect with the Betrayal community, join our substack@betrayal.substack.com we're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review betrayal 5 star review. Reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison, hosted and produced by Me, Andrea Gunning Written and produced by Olivia Hewitt and Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Casting support from Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krynczyk. Audio editing and mixing by Matt d' Alvecchio Additional audio editing by Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines Music library provided by My Music and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Travel Smarter, Not Harder and America's Best Value Inn by Sinesta. With convenient locations from coast to coast and value packed comfort at every turn, it's a practical choice for road trips quick getaways and everyday travel that keeps things simple without sacrificing comfort. And when you're a Sinesta Travel Pass member, staying at America's Best Value Inn means earning points towards free nights, upgrades and more every time you stay. Go to Sonesta.com to book your stay and unlock the best rates with Sonesta Travel Pass. Here today, roam tomorrow. Join now@sonesta.com terms and conditions apply when it comes to advancing your education, you have more options than you think. At Rasmussen University they find ways to remove barriers, not build them like a new laptop if you're eligible and enroll in select online or on campus programs. That also means flexible and engaging online courses and resources, tuition saving options if you qualify, exceptional student support and much more online nationally or check out their 20 campuses across six states. Start when you're ready and get the support you need. Visit Rasmussen. Edu.

Bernie Brown (98:13)

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Andrea Gunning (98:42)

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