Betrayal: Season 4, Bonus Episode 1 — "Pathological Liars"

Podcast: Betrayal (Glass Podcasts & iHeartPodcasts)
Release Date: July 11, 2025
Host: Andrea Gunning
Guests: Dr. Drew Curtis & Dr. Chris Hart (authors & psychology researchers)

Episode Overview

This bonus episode dives into the phenomenon of pathological lying, inspired by Karoline Borega's story—the central figure in Season 4, who discovered after two decades of marriage that her husband, Joel, a respected Colorado Springs police officer, led a hidden life full of deception and betrayal. The episode explores why some people lie compulsively, the impact on those around them, and if change is possible, featuring a conversation with expert psychologists and authors Dr. Drew Curtis and Dr. Chris Hart.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Story Behind the Episode

• Karoline Borega’s Experience:
  Karoline’s world was turned upside down when she learned her husband Joel, whom she thought was an honorable man, had been lying to her for twenty years, engaging in numerous affairs and deceitful behaviors—even during an active police investigation.

  "Her entire life was a mirage. Her husband Joel, an honorable cop, was anything but. For years, he'd been spending his time on the clock, having sex in his police car. On top of that, he'd had dozens of affairs. For Caroline, this betrayal was not just about what Joel did. It was about the lengths he went to to cover it all up." (Andrea, 02:36)

2. Defining Pathological Lying

• Expert Definitions & Context:
  Drs. Curtis and Hart, psychology researchers and the authors of "Big Liars," clarify the distinction between everyday lying, prolific lying, and pathological lying.
  • Most people are honest most of the time, but a "small percentage" tell "excessive amounts of lies."
  • Pathological liars are those whose fabrications disadvantage themselves, causing relationship distress and personal stress.

  "Most people are honest most of the time, but it's a small percentage…who tells excessive amounts of lies…There's a smaller subset…pathological liars, where their lies do disadvantage them, typically in their relationships, causing them distress and so forth."
  — Dr. Curtis, 04:51

3. Lying as Persuasion

• The Motivations to Lie:
  The experts explain that lying is fundamentally an attempt to persuade, often for personal gain or to align goals with others, even at the cost of truth.

  "We're always navigating that tension between satisfying our own goals and trying to match someone else's goals. But...sometimes outright lying…is our best option at persuading other people to…do what we want."
  — Dr. Hart, 05:31

4. The Lack of Diagnostic Recognition

• Pathological Lying & the DSM:
  Pathological lying isn’t an official diagnosis in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), limiting clinicians’ ability to address it formally.
  • As a result, affected individuals are often misdiagnosed or do not receive targeted treatment.

  "Pathological lying is not currently recognized as a formal diagnostic entity in the DSM..."
  —Dr. Curtis, 06:29

  • Having a standard diagnosis would improve communication, treatment, insurance reimbursement, and research.

  "If you can identify a formal diagnosis, then you can set forth research to look at what is the most effective treatment for this."
  — Dr. Curtis, 08:24

5. Impact on Victims & Rebuilding Trust

• Integrating Two Realities:
  Andrea discusses the difficult journey for partners like Karoline, who must reconcile their perceived reality with brutal new truths.

  "She now has to kind of integrate those two realities because she has to look back on major memories and wonder what was real and what wasn't real."
  — Andrea, 13:29

• Trust and Recovery:
  Pathological lying shatters trust and makes it challenging to move forward. The experts recommend:
  • Acknowledging the impact without letting it erase positive memories.
  • Recognizing the natural impulse to guard oneself, but also being mindful of the consequences of keeping defenses up.

  "When you've lowered your wall and you've been vulnerable and you've gotten crushed, the walls are going to come up probably higher than before...There's a consequence to that, too. And it's not letting people in who may not do that to you."
  — Dr. Curtis, 15:17

6. Why It's Hard to Spot and Accept Lying

• Deceptiveness & Denial:
  Prolific and pathological liars become desensitized—they feel little fear or guilt when lying.

  "People who lie a lot and do it every day, that fear response subsides...their emotional reactions are going to be about the same as if they were telling you what they had for dinner last night."
  — Dr. Hart, 16:33

  • Victims often blame themselves for missing “the signs,” but the desire to avoid painful truths is strong.

  "Most of us…don't want to catch those awful things. We don't want to be confronted with that even if it's true…"
  — Dr. Curtis, 17:12

• Romantic Relationships and Consequences:
  Calling out a partner’s lies has profound and frightening implications, often leading to avoidance.

  "If I'm going to call my spouse out for lying, does that mean we have to split up? And…it gets really complicated and scary really quickly, and it's just so much easier…to just turn a blind eye…"
  — Dr. Hart, 17:52

7. Can Pathological Liars Change?

• Possibility for Change:
  Change is possible, especially through intention and therapy (e.g., cognitive-behavioral therapy).
  • Consistent small steps toward honesty matter more than waiting for “miracles.”

  "People always have the opportunities to change…it's aspects like modeling honesty even when it's hard."
  — Dr. Curtis, 18:27
  "The key and the first step…is people decide they finally want to change. They finally hit some point…their patterns of lying are causing…turmoil that they…desire to change…If everyone made an intention to be more honest every day…they'd find they've made some considerable progress."
  — Dr. Hart, 18:51

Notable Quotes

• On the core of lying:

  "Lying at its core is the attempt to persuade."
  — Andrea Gunning referencing Curtis & Hart, 05:20

• On split realities:

  "Where Caroline is left today is that she's kind of living with two different realities…She now has to…wonder what was real and what wasn't real."
  — Andrea Gunning, 13:29

• On self-blame:

  "Helping someone deal with beating themselves up for not being super lie detector…there is the initial impulse to not necessarily want to know that the person's lying because…of what they were lying about."
  — Dr. Curtis, 17:12

• On the possibility for change:

  "It's just like any behavioral pattern…Anything that you've been doing for decades, it's hard just to flip the switch and turn it off. But…the first step…is people decide they finally want to change."
  — Dr. Hart, 18:51

Key Timestamps

• 02:36: Andrea introduces Karoline’s betrayal and the extent of Joel’s lies
• 04:51: Dr. Curtis defines big liars and pathological lying
• 05:31: Dr. Hart details lying as persuasion
• 06:29: Discussion of why pathological lying isn't in the DSM
• 08:24: Importance of diagnostic recognition and its impact
• 13:29: Andrea discusses survivors integrating "two realities"
• 15:17: Dr. Curtis on the psychology of rebuilding trust
• 16:33: Dr. Hart on diminished fear responses in pathological liars
• 17:12: Dr. Curtis and Dr. Hart on victim self-blame and avoidance
• 18:27: Possibility for change and therapeutic approaches
• 18:51: The importance of intention and small daily changes

Memorable Takeaways

• Pathological lying devastates not only the direct victims but also warps their conception of reality.
• The lack of a formal DSM diagnosis leaves affected people and professionals without clear guidance.
• Both experts emphasize that recovery for victims and change for liars is slow, intentional, and possible—but practice, support, and recognition are critical.
• The episode is a compassionate and clear-eyed look at an often misunderstood behavior, providing tools and reassurance to those impacted.

Further Resources

• Find Drs. Curtis & Hart’s book: Big Liars—available from the American Psychological Association, Amazon, or Barnes & Noble.
• Connect with the show:
  • Beyond Betrayal Substack
  • Email: betrayalpodmail.com
  • Instagram: @betrayalpod