S4: EP 4 — Shock to the Conscience

Summary

Betrayal: Season 4, Episode 4 — "Shock to the Conscience"

Podcast: Betrayal (iHeartPodcasts, Glass Podcasts)
Host: Andrea Gunning
Date: June 12, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This episode, “Shock to the Conscience,” peels back the layers of deception within the Colorado Springs Police Department through the fall of Lieutenant Joel Kern. It dives deep into his internal affairs investigation after allegations of sexual misconduct and misuse of authority—and the profound betrayal experienced by his wife, Caroline. Through audio from the official interview, host Andrea Gunning and Caroline reflect on what was happening behind closed doors while, to the outside world, Joel maintained his façade. The story probes the cost of lies, loyalty, and institutional trust, exposing both a personal and systemic reckoning.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Colliding Worlds of Joel Kern (03:35–05:12)

• Background: Joel Kern, a veteran police lieutenant, is exposed after a woman confesses to her husband about having sex with Joel in his police car. The husband confronts Joel and files an official complaint.
• The Colorado Springs Police Department (CSPD) launches an internal investigation, culminating in a high-stakes Internal Affairs interview for Joel (05:41).
• Host framing: “But those two realities were on a collision course, because Joel’s reckoning day at the Colorado Springs Police Department was rapidly approaching.” (03:57)

2. The Internal Affairs Interview: Denial, Deflection, and Collapse (05:12–36:17)

• Initial Approach: Joel signs the Garrity Advisement, an order to tell the truth (05:21–05:39):

  • Lieutenant Chanza: “Will you be answering all of our questions concerning this matter truthfully today?”
  • Joel Kern: “Yes.” (06:14–06:19)

• Deflection Tactics:

  • Joel claims he’s being “catfished” and blames strained friendships and feuds for the allegations (07:01, 10:31).
  • He weaves elaborate stories about social sabotage and online impersonation to cast doubt (10:59).

• Direct Confrontation and Reluctant Admissions:

  • Investigators meticulously confront Joel with evidence, including text messages, photographs, WhatsApp activity, and the complainant’s statements. Joel’s story shifts repeatedly as each new piece of evidence is presented (17:42–25:37).
  • Notable sequence:
    • Lieutenant Sokolik: “Have you been physically intimate with this individual?”
    • Joel Kern: “Yes.” (21:23)
    • Sokolik: “Did that occur inside a department vehicle?”
    • Kern: “No.”
    • Sokolik: “Did it occur on duty?”
    • Kern: “No. I mean, I guess it could have.” (21:33)

• Unraveling of Lies:

  • Joel initially denies having a FetLife account or meeting the woman on FetLife, but eventually admits to both after investigators point out technical impossibilities in his story (22:07–22:45).

• Admitting Sexual Encounters:

  • Confronted with forensic and testimonial evidence, Joel finally admits to sex acts in his police vehicle and in public spaces, gradually ceding ground only when pinned (25:26–25:37, 26:39–26:50).

• Misuse of Authority:

  • Joel sent the woman selfies of himself in police uniform to “make her feel more comfortable” (29:16–30:09).

• Emotional Evasion:

  • When asked why he didn’t tell the truth, Joel claims humiliation, embarrassment, and references to “demons from my past” and being at a “low point” (30:22–31:11).
  • “I acknowledge that I’ve needed help for a long time, and I just throw myself at the mercy of the people reading this and promise that, you know, I want to do better.” (31:11)

3. Caroline’s Perspective: The Impact on Family [Listens to the tape] (32:36–37:00)

• Shock and Realization: Caroline recounts returning from a vacation with her daughter, while Joel played the attentive father—knowing all along he had just been interrogated (33:16).
  • “He has just revealed what is going to be the detriment to our family.” — Caroline (33:42)
• Reflections on Deception:
  • Caroline discusses the emotional violence of Joel’s lies—not just to her, but to longtime friends and colleagues (34:53).
  • “I see the stranger who I lived with. I do not know that man. That man who is on that tape is evil.” (35:43)
• Living with Betrayal:
  • Caroline affirms the effort required to move forward:
    “I do it daily. I still have to do it daily.” (37:00)

4. Commander Strossner’s Reckoning and Departmental Failure (41:19–52:09)

• Judgment Day:
  • Commander Strossner confronts Joel, reading out the sustained allegations: violation of take-home vehicle policy, conduct unbecoming, and “departing from the truth” (41:22–52:09).
  • Strossner: “You knowingly lied, providing false information… You attempted to blame someone… Only after being confronted with specific facts did you begin to admit…” (42:05–43:02)
  • The most damning violation: “constitutes a violation of your oath in office.” (45:43)
• Patterns of Behavior:
  • Reference to Joel’s previous 2019 case of sexual harassment and echoing language of contrition (47:39–48:26).

5. Consequences—Or Lack Thereof (55:46–55:59)

• Surprising Turn: Despite Strossner recommending termination, Joel wasn’t fired—leaving listeners with the question of how he avoided greater consequences.
  • “He wasn’t fired, was he?”
  • “No.” (55:55)
  • The host teases that the next episode will explore this further.

6. Caroline’s Closing Reflections on Support and Truth (53:53–55:46)

• Caroline thanks both the man who confronted Joel and Commander Strossner for not believing the lies and doing the work to hold Joel accountable.
  • “You may have saved mine and my kids lives. Thank you.” (54:24)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• The Threatening Confrontation:

  • “And then she says, ‘I'm gonna ruin your fucking lives.’” — Joel Kern, describing confrontation after the dinner party fallout (10:59)

• On Facing the Truth:

  • “It’s humiliating, it’s embarrassing, it’s traumatic, and, you know, all the demons from my past come to rise, and I was at a low point.” — Joel Kern (30:22)
  • “That man who is on that tape is evil. I don’t know anything about him.” — Caroline Kern (35:43)

• On Oath and Institutional Trust:

  • “Not only did you put yourself in that same position, you made it worse. Someone might make that argument that you were initially evasive… but I do not believe you fully redeemed credibility or you were completely transparent… This whole thing has just been like a shock to my conscience. It really has.” — Commander Strossner (48:41, 52:06)

• On Living the Lie vs. Living the Truth:

  • “The kids and I were living the truth. He was living the lie.” — Caroline Kern (36:38)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Confrontation at the House: 03:06–04:59
• Joel’s Internal Affairs Interview (Denials Begin): 05:12–10:10
• Elaborate Deflections & “Catfish” Story: 10:31–11:57
• Investigators Present Evidence & Joel’s Story Shifts: 17:42–25:37
• Final Admissions of Sex and Policy Violations: 25:26–26:50
• Joel Discusses His Emotional State: 30:22–31:11
• Caroline Reacts to Joel's Interview: 32:36–37:00
• Commander Strossner Confronts Joel & Recounts Violations: 41:22–52:09
• Caroline's Gratitude to Those Who Refused to Believe Joel: 53:53–55:46
• Host Reveals Joel Wasn’t Fired: 55:46–55:59

---

Thematic Takeaways

• The Ripple Effects of Betrayal: Joel’s double life and sustained lies ripple out to family, friends, colleagues, and the wider community.
• Gaslighting and Institutional Damage: Joel uses emotional manipulation, denial, and misdirection—not just against loved ones, but against trusted colleagues—eroding both personal and organizational trust.
• Systemic Accountability: The episode questions systems of power and highlights the gaps between recommendations and real consequences; listeners are left eager for next week’s follow-up.

---

To Be Continued…

The episode closes with the question of how Joel managed to avoid termination, setting up the next chapter in this disturbing story of institutional betrayal.

---

For further discussion, curated content, and community support, join the “Beyond Betrayal” Substack.

Transcript

[Andrea Gunning]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[WashablesOfAs.com Advertiser]

Tired of spills and stains on your sofa? WashablesOfAs.com has your back featuring the Annabe collection, the only designer sofa that's machine washable inside and out. Where designer quality meets budget friendly prices. That's right, sofas start at just $699. Enjoy a no risk experience with pet friendly stain resistant and changeable slipcovers made with performance fabrics. Experience cloud like comfort high resilience foam that's hypoallergenic and never needs fluffing. The sturdy steel frame ensures longevity and the modular pieces can be rearranged anytime. Check out washablesofas.com and get up to 60% off your Anna Bay sofa backed by a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund. No return, shipping or restocking fees. Every penny back. Upgrade [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may App Are there.

[Andrea Gunning]

Two sides to every story? Academy Award nominee Robin Wright stars in the girlfriend on Prime September 10, a psychological thriller that will make you question everything. Laura has the perfect life and a son she'd die for, but when he brings home his new girlfriend Cherry, played by Olivia Cook, something feels off. Also starring Laurie Davidson, the Girlfriend is a twisted game of cat and mouse where nothing is what it seems. Don't miss the Girlfriend. Streaming exclusively on Prime September 10th. Sometimes the truth is just a matter of perspective.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Mint is still $15 a month for.

[Andrea Gunning]

Premium wireless, and if you haven't made the switch yet, here are 15 reasons why you should 1.

[Caroline (Joel Kern's wife)]

It's $15 a month.

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

2.

[Andrea Gunning]

Seriously, it's $15 a month.

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

3. No big contracts. 4. I use it.

[Caroline (Joel Kern's wife)]

5.

[Andrea Gunning]

My mom uses it.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Are you playing me off?

[Andrea Gunning]

That's what's happening, right? Okay, give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront.

[WashablesOfAs.com Advertiser]

Payment of $45 for three Plan $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only.

[Andrea Gunning]

Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See mint mobile.com this episode is brought to you by Opill, the first over the counter daily birth control pill available in the U.S. opill is a daily birth control pill that's FDA approved, full prescription strength and estrogen free. Plus there's no prescription needed. Finally, the days of needing a prescription for birth control are over. This is the moment to take control of your health and reproductive journeys. Be Because Opill is birth control in your control. Opill is available online and at most major retailers. Use code betrayal for 25% off your first month of [e-mail]. hey, guys, before we get into the episode, a quick note. We're looking for new stories of betrayal for our weekly Betrayal series, which returns in August. If you've experienced betrayal and feel ready to share your story, now is a great time to reach out. Email [e-mail] that's betrayalpodmail.com.

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

She starts screaming and yelling at us, and we just got up and started to walk away. And then as we were walking out of their house, she's following behind us. And then she says, I'm gonna ruin your fucking lives.

[Andrea Gunning]

I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is betrayal. Season 4, Episode 4 Shock to the Conscience. In our last episode, we saw Joel Kern's double life. A side by side comparison of two different realities. But those two realities were on a collision course, because Joel's reckoning day at the Colorado Springs Police Department was rapidly approaching. This was the day he'd be forced to answer for his lies. And this time, it wouldn't be Caroline who was left in disbelief. It would be Joel's co workers, officers he'd worked closely with for over two decades, men he graduated from the police academy with, men who'd been close friends and mentors. In March 2022, Joel was under investigation at the CSPD because a couple came in to file a complaint against him. The wife confessed to having sex with Joel in his police car. She was making amends for her actions, and part of that was alerting the department that one of their officers was up to no good. So the department launched an internal investigation and dug into the claims. Then they called Joel in for his official interview with Internal Affairs. He was even able to bring an attorney. His future hinged on what happened in this meeting. We've got it all on tape, and we want you to hear it.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Good to see you again. It's been a while. Okay, Joel being on the form. You've been up here, so I'll let you read that.

[Andrea Gunning]

They start the interview by having Joel sign a Garrity advisement. It's an acknowledgement that he's under investigation. It explains the process, and most importantly, it requires him to answer truthfully after he signs this document. A lie could mean termination.

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Thanks, sir. Okay.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

All right, we'll get started. This is Lieutenant Rafael Chancellor with the Colorado Springs Police Department, Internal affairs section. Today is Monday, March 21, 2022. I'm interviewing Lieutenant Joel Kern in regards to internal affairs case 22023. Also present are Lieutenant James Sokolik and Lieutenant Kern's attorney, John Newsom. Joel, I know you were up here, so before going on the record where you provided a tied Garrity advisement.

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

I was.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

That you signed that voluntarily?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Yes.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Do you have any questions regarding the Garrity advisement?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

No. Okay.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Will you be answering all of our questions concerning this matter truthfully today?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Yes.

[Andrea Gunning]

You may remember in episode two, Joel's boss, Commander Stroessner, reported a conversation he had with Joel where Joel denied knowing the couple and was worried that someone was impersonating him or filing a false complaint. Stroessner believed him.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

This is now under Garrity. This is your opportunity to just let us know what happened. I don't want you to feel tied to whatever you said to Stroessner. Anything that was said there. Is that good? Is that fair?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

I'll tell you exactly what I told him.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Okay, tell us, why do you think those allegations against you were brought forward?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

I don't know why specifically these allegations were made, but I have some ideas. I think maybe the. The persons making the allegations got in over their head or something. And. And I suspect that they're catfished me in whatever communication they were having.

[Andrea Gunning]

But before they got into that, Chanza wanted to focus on the incident at Joel's house the day a stranger showed up accusing Joel of having sex with his wife in his police cruiser.

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

That's my wife out there. The one that you fucked in your cruiser.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

What are you talking about?

[Andrea Gunning]

Joel wasn't aware that the man had secretly recorded the entire encounter, and Joel didn't know that the man gave the recording to the cspd. Chanza gave Joel an opportunity to recount what happened from his point of view.

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

I was just in shock that someone was standing there saying this to me. So I said, I don't know who you are, but I'm not fucking your wife or anybody else's wife. And he looked at me again, and then he said, well, I don't even really know if it's you, and if it's not you, I'm really sorry. And I took pause for a second because I'm like, you're coming to my house, banging on my front door, and then you drop this bomb on my household, and then you're gonna say that you don't even know if it's me. So I said, you need to get the fuck off my property. I walked onto the sidewalk so I could look in the car just to see who this is. And when I saw the person, I didn't recognize them at all. And then she gets out of the car, and then, like, she's staring at me. And then she has these huge, huge sunglasses on. Like, so huge I couldn't even see her face, really. But they weren't, like, total blackout. And I could see through the sunglasses that looked like she had, like, two black eyes. And she's crying.

[Andrea Gunning]

It seemed like Joel, in an effort to deflect the attention off of his own actions, was slyly suggesting this man was beating his wife.

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

And then this guy slams the back of the their car and says, is that him? By screaming at her. And she startles, and she starts to cry even more. And then she, like, shakes her head yes, and then gets right back into the car. And then he said, well, the least that you can do is apologize for ruining my family. And then so I started walking away, and I said, I have nothing to apologize for because I don't know you. I don't know your wife. I'm not your wife. I'm not anybody else. And then I just started to walk back in my house. And then they drove away eventually.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

So you had never seen either one of them?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

No.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Going back to catfishing. You made a comment about that at the beginning when we opened up. What does that have to do with them coming to your front door?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Like, two years ago, there was a. Essentially, like, a breakup of friendships with, like, four different couples.

[Andrea Gunning]

It seemed like Joel had come prepared with a backstory. He says it all started at a dinner party that he and Caroline attended. It was with a group of couples. An argument broke out. The couple hosting got into it with Caroline and Joel. The wife in particular was enraged.

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

So she starts screaming and yelling at us, and we just got up and started to walk away. And then as we were walking out of their house, she's following behind us. And then she says, I'm going to ruin your fucking lives.

[Andrea Gunning]

The story was over the top, ridiculous. Even then it got even stranger. Joel said another woman got pulled into the conflict, and the two women teamed up to take down the Kerns.

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

There was another couple who was friends with this lady that said that she's going to ruin my life or ruin our lives. And she, when we were all friends, used to brag about how she would make fake social media accounts and then converse with people using the fake account. Her idea of fun was to impersonate a friend of a person that they already have on Facebook, and then she would start conversing with them on the instant messaging.

[Andrea Gunning]

Chanza asked more questions about the women Joel believed targeted his family. But eventually they got to the heart of the matter.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Have you ever had any kind of sexual contact inside your city assigned take home vehicle?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

No.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Have you ever had any sexual contact with anyone while on duty?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

No.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Okay, so the allegations that are being brought against you are absolutely not true.

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

No.

[Andrea Gunning]

Chanza then showed Joel a photograph of a woman. It was not the woman who filed the complaint, it was someone else.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Have you ever met this lady?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

No. No.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Have you ever uploaded WhatsApp on your work cell phone number?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

No.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Obviously you're aware we took your phone and as you may imagine, we dumped your laptop. What if I were to tell you that you did communicate with someone directing them to go to WhatsApp? Would that refresh your memory.

[WashablesOfAs.com Advertiser]

Time for a sofa upgrade? Visit washablesofas.com and discover Annabe where designer style meets budget friendly prices with sofas starting at $699, Annabe brings you the ultimate in furniture innovation with a modular design that allows you to rearrange your space effortlessly. Perfect for both small and large spaces, Annabe is the only machine washable sofa inside and out. Say goodbye to stains and messes with liquid and stain resistant fabrics that make cleaning easy. Liquid simply slides right off. Designed for custom comfort, our high resilience foam lets you choose between a sink in feel or a supportive memory foam blend. Plus our pet friendly stain resistant fabrics ensure your sofa stays beautiful for years. Don't compromise quality for price. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your living space today with no risk. Returns and a 3030 day money back guarantee. Get up to 60% off plus free shipping and free returns. Shop [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Andrea Gunning]

Are there two sides to every story? Academy Award nominee Robin Wright stars in the girlfriend on prime September 10, a spine tingling psychological thriller that will make you question everything you think you know. Laura has the dream job, the perfect husband and a son she'd die for. But when her beloved Daniel brings home his new girlfriend, Cherry, played by Olivia Cooke, something feels off. Is Cherry the sweet, innocent girl she appears to be? Or is there something more manipulative beneath the surface? And how far will a mother go to protect her son? Also starring Lori Davidson, the Girlfriend is a twisted game of cat and mouse where nothing is what it seems and everyone has something to hide. Don't miss the Girlfriend. Streaming exclusively on Prime September 10 Sometimes the truth is just a matter of perspective. I used to think home security was just an alarm that goes off after a break in, scaring the intruder off and maybe getting a neighbor's attention if you're lucky. But that's reactive. By the time someone's inside your home, it's already too late. Your feeling of safety is gone. That's why I use Simplisafe. Real security should stop a crime before it even starts. And Simplisafe does exactly that. I love Simplisafe because their system gives me total peace of mind knowing my home is protected 24 7. Their smart AI powered cameras can spot threats outside your home and alert SimpliSafe's professional monitoring agents instantly. Those agents jump into action and can use two way audio to confront the person, trigger sirens and spotlights to scare them off, and even requests police dispatch, all while the intruder is still outside. That's not just an alarm, that's real proactive protection. Join the more than 4 million Americans who trust Simplisafe every day, including me. With a 60 day money back guarantee and no long term contracts, you've got nothing to lose. Visit simplisafe.com betrayal to claim 50% off a new system. That's simplisafe.com betrayal there's no safe like Simplisafe. You know what all these betrayal stories I share on this podcast have in common? The feeling of I should have known that haunts every victim because there are always signs that something just isn't right. This also applies to a kind of betrayal that isn't talked about often. Sluggish digestion, constant fatigue, brain fog, trouble losing weight, and poor sleep. These are all signs that your gut has turned against you, when in fact it should help you feel your best. Because scientists now say it's the foundation of your vitality and overall health. And that's where Bioma comes in. This novel supplement has everything you need for a healthy and thriving gut. With every serving you get prebiotics, probiotics and postbiotics that are science backed and third party tested so you can enjoy comfortable digestion, boundless energy, better focus and restful sleep, and even smoother weight management when following a healthy lifestyle. Just take two tiny Bioma capsules each morning before breakfast and start feeling your best. Visit Bioma Health and use Code betrayal to get 15% off your first order. That's Bioma health code betrayal for 15% off Lt. Chanza began to lay out the evidence they'd collected immediately. Joel's tone shifted. So did his story. These guys worked with Joel for years. This was the last situation they Wanted to be in.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Obviously, you're aware we took your phone, and as you may imagine, we dumped your phone, laptop. What if I were to tell you that you did communicate with someone, directing them to go to WhatsApp? Would that refresh your memory?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

I don't remember in what context.

[Commander Jeff Stroessner]

You.

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Said that her name's what?

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Would it help you if I told you she has a Denver number?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Yeah, I met her at a brew function.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

I'm sorry, at a what?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

A brewery function. Like a beer function?

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Can you describe that for us?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Just met her through there, and then we started talking and then. Share common interests and became friends, but I just know her as her first name. I don't know her last name or anything like that.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Well, you recognize the pictures, right?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Yeah, now I do. Yep.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Joel, you know how that's looking, right?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Is this the person making allegations?

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

We'll get to that. But, I mean, if we're trying to establish credibility veracity. I'm showing you a picture. I'm giving you a chance to take a look at it. You're telling me to my face that you don't recognize him?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Well, I was mistaken. I apologize for that. I recognize her because I just met her at brew functions, but that's it.

[Andrea Gunning]

The woman in the photo was the same woman we heard from in an earlier episode. We're not using her name here. She was the one Joel had sex with in the parking lot of a sporting goods store. The one Joel was texting when he said, there's been some drama, and I deleted everything. The CSPD had copies of their messages.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

You don't have any kind of other relationship with her?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

No.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Have you communicated with her through WhatsApp?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Yes, just as friends. Talking through that about different things, but that's it.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

Do you have a romantic relationship with her, Joel?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

I do not.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

Would she say differently?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

I don't know. I don't have a romantic relationship with her.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

Have you been intimate with her?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

No.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

When I say intimate, I'm very blunt and political, so we don't have any. Have you been physically intimate or had sex with her?

[Andrea Gunning]

Before Joel could say anything, Sokolik decided to lay it all out there. He was done with Joel's denial.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

Before you answer that, because we're pausing. What I'm going to say is I want to make sure it's very clear that the Internal affairs detectives are in Denver right now to contact her during this meeting. So this should be a really easy question, Joel.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

We're not here to trick you, Joel. This is. We're Trying to get to the bottom of this. I mean, do you know both of us?

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

So let me stop things for a second here, okay? I really want to be clear. I know you're talking about catfishing on this. That is not the allegation. The allegation, be very clear, is you had sex with this person, not that she talked to you about having sex, that you've had sex with this person in your department vehicle. That's not a catfishing situation. It's a very serious allegation. And it's not like a misunderstanding of talking to the wrong person online. This person is identifying that they had sex with you, Joel Kern, in your department car. And I'll be honest. It doesn't sound like you're being 100% honest to Joel. So I'm asking again, real quick, understanding the detectives are out there to talk to her right now. Have you been physically intimate with this individual?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Yes.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

Did you have sex with them?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Yes.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

Did that occur inside a department vehicle?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

No.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

Did it occur on duty?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

No. I mean, I guess it could have.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

Are you familiar with FetLife?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

I've heard of it, but, yeah.

[Andrea Gunning]

FetLife is a kink and fetish social networking website.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

Did you meet her through FetLife?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

I can't remember if I did or not.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

You have a FetLife account?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

No.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

Did you have a FetLife account?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

No.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

Okay, so in order to go through FetLife, you have to have an account in order to have those conversations back and forth or do DMs and that kind of stuff. So how would you have met her potentially there if you didn't have an account with FetLife?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

I don't remember how I met her exactly. It's been a few years, so we're.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Not gonna let you skate on this one. You just said I might have. So clearly you have been on FedLife. Can we establish that?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

I looked at it, yes, but.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

And what Jimmy just said is that you cannot get on there without having an account. We've tested all this out.

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Mm. I deleted. I had an account, and then I deleted it when I was trying to get my life back on track.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Okay. That's a step in the right direction. So you had an account, but you don't know if you met her through FetLife?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

I think I. I think I did. Yeah, but it wasn't. You're painting it out to be.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

We're not passing judgment, Joe. I'll stop you there. We're not. We're giving you an opportunity to talk to us. All we're trying to establish is that you violate policy. And if you did, obviously we have to be held accountable. Period. I mean, that's it. We're not here to pass judgment.

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

So there's periods in my marriage and home life that were bad. And then, you know, I met her and talked to her, and then we just became fast friends. But to the question of violating policy and all that, no.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Okay, but you said that possibly you met her while you were on duty. You were coming back from Denver. When you went to this trip that you're thinking about, were you driving your take home vehicle?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Yes.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Okay, so how does that happen? How do you meet her? You said you went to a brewery.

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

It was coming back from a training. And then she suggested that we meet. And then. So we met on the way back. And then coming back, we just met at the. I forget the name of the store. It's a outdoor store, like, around Lincoln and 525.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Okay, and then where do you guys go and have intimate relationships?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Well, she. She came over into my car, and then we just talked and everything. And then kissed.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Okay, what part of the car?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Front front passenger seat.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Any other area of the car she might have been.

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Mm.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

And I'm sure you can probably guess where we're going with this. We obviously took the car. We had the lab search it and do what they do. Would there be any chance for her DNA to be in the back of that car?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Oh, I'm sure. I mean, she's in the car. So.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

Joel, did you anything besides kiss?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Well, this is all very embarrassing and humiliating, but, yeah, we had sex.

[Commander Jeff Stroessner]

Whereabouts in the car?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

In the back.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Only the one time.

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Mm.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Okay.

[Andrea Gunning]

Joel admitted to certain details, but when and only when he realized they already knew it.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

So the picture that we're getting, Joel, is that there might be more than one person. So we want you to think about it, pause if you need to take a break, if you need to use the restroom, get some water, and we can talk about that when we get back.

[Andrea Gunning]

They took a break. And when they returned, Chanza and Sokolik continued their questioning.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

Did you have conversation with her in fetlight?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

I don't know her name or who she is or anything like that, but, yeah, I think I had conversations, or I did have conversations with her on fitlife. Okay.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

Did you arrange for her to download the WhatsApp so you guys could have conversations privately on your phone?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Yes.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

Did you arrange to meet her at Memorial Park?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Yes.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

Then basically, you had sex with her at Memorial Park.

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Didn't have sex. There was no penetration.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

So that was oral sex only?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Yes.

[Andrea Gunning]

Joel is treading carefully here because admitting to having sex in public is not only admitting to a violation of his duty, but a violation of the law.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

During this conversation, you arranged that. Basically, she is submissive and you are dominant. She says you struck her several times, leaving bruises. I will say before any further, too. She says this was a consensual encounter. She is not alleging a sexual assault.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

And remember, you're within the confines of Garrity.

[Andrea Gunning]

Remember, the Garrity advisement is a warning given to police officers during an internal investigation. The individual signing this advisement is declaring that they will tell the truth.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

This is not having to do anything to do with a criminal investigation. I'm just trying to lock in her statement. She said you left bruises, you physically struck her, pulled her hair, that type of thing.

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

No.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

So, obviously, at some point in time, after this takes place, you break contact with her, she leaves?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Yes.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

You have any further contact with her?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Just here or there afterwards, but nothing.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

What does here or there mean?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Just texting a little bit on the. On the app, but no physical meetings whatsoever.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

So when her husband showed up, you knew what he was talking about.

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

You know who I am? No, dude, that's my wife out there. The one that you fucking. Your cruiser? What are you talking about? Um, well, yeah, but again, I didn't have sex with her. As in penalty sexual intercourse or anything like that, so. But, yeah, I had an idea.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

Did you recognize her that day?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Vaguely, yes.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

So just to clarify, the picture that I'm showing you here, Joel, is the lady that was there that day in front of your house?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Yes.

[Andrea Gunning]

Then the investigators turned to an important element in this case. They have a selfie. Joel sent to this woman a photo where he's wearing his police uniform. You can clearly see his badge on his chest. And the investigators needed to know why. What was Joel's intention?

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

You sent a picture of yourself to the complainant in this case, the person that you met at Memorial Park?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Yes.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Okay. Were you in uniform?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Can't remember.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Did you identify yourself as a police officer to this person?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

After some time after we were talking, yes.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

Why did you do that?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Because she said that she works in law, and the intent was developing friendships and all that and having friendships. So it's just more of like a getting to know.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

The information we received is that she was nervous. Is that why you sent a picture of yourself, or is that why you identified yourself as a police officer, to.

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

No, just more to make her feel more comfortable? No, absolutely not.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

But you did identify yourself as a police officer?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Yes.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

So, Joe, we started on this. Why didn't you say what happened?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Because it's humiliating, it's embarrassing, it's traumatic, and, you know, all the demons from my past come to rise, and I was at a low point, definitely in my marriage and in. In my life and trying to save face, trying to not get fired, and I think maybe a cry for help.

[Lieutenant James Sokolik]

Is there anything you want to make sure that the person who reads this gets to hear directly from you?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Yeah, I think. I think I'm salvageable. I acknowledge that I've needed help for a long time, and I just throw myself at the mercy of the people reading this and promise that, you know, I want to do better. And I think I need help, and I think it would be nice for the department to help me get there. We pay a lot of lip service about our employees as our family and all that, but I like to maybe somehow believe in that and recognize that I've had issues, and I've had issues for a long, long time. And every day is a struggle, and I want help.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

In closing, this investigation is ongoing. In order to maintain the confidentiality of this case, I'm giving you a direct order not to discuss this case or this interview with anyone other than Internal affairs or anyone from whom the discussion would be legally protected and confidential under Colorado statute. Do you understand this order?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

I do. Okay.

[Lieutenant Rafael Chanza]

This will conclude the interview. The time now is 13:44 hours.

[Andrea Gunning]

Caroline and I listened to the Internal affairs interview together. I wanted to know what she thought of Joel's performance. Finally, she could hear what was really going on with Joel while she was still in the dark. Caroline remembers exactly what she was doing the week of Joel's interview. Because she was on vacation with her daughter, they decided to take a trip to Vegas together and soak up the desert sun. Joel hung back, saying he was busy with work. All the while, he knew he'd been caught. He was just waiting to find out how bad the consequences would be.

[Caroline (Joel Kern's wife)]

And he picked us up at the airport with our dogs in the car, you know, got gets out of the car, kisses me, hugs her. Missed you guys. Oh, we missed you. We're catching up. We're talking about the food we ate, and we're filling him in. How was work? Oh, my gosh. So busy this week. I have replayed that over and over and over and over again.

[Andrea Gunning]

To Caroline, her husband seemed completely normal.

[Caroline (Joel Kern's wife)]

Meanwhile, he has just revealed what is going to be the Detriment to our family.

[Andrea Gunning]

Wow. I mean, he signs the Garrity, which is basically saying that he's promising to tell the truth. And from the very beginning, from question one, he is lying. Do you feel like he thought that he could talk his way out of it?

[Caroline (Joel Kern's wife)]

I don't think he just thought he could talk his way out of it. I think that he truly, in his gut, believed he would get away with it. He not only thought that he could have his attorney believe him, but Joel believed that he would be able to have Raphael and Jimmy believe him as well.

[Andrea Gunning]

And those are the two internal affairs investigators we heard questioning him. Rafael Chanza and Jimmy Sokolk. These are two people who both knew you guys personally.

[Caroline (Joel Kern's wife)]

Yes. The part that disturbs me so much on this is not just that he lied, but the level of personal connection and whom he lied to. They were promoted on the same day together as lieutenants. We were at Jimmy Sokolik's wedding.

[Andrea Gunning]

Wow.

[Caroline (Joel Kern's wife)]

These were people who had been at personal events in our lives. He's lying to them, and not only just lying to them as professionals, colleagues, and friends, but he is lying about the dynamic of our home. There was not this unhealthy, horrible life at home. And yet this is what he reverts back to time and time and time again on the times where he has gotten caught.

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Yeah.

[Andrea Gunning]

I was going to say, he refers to your marriage being in a bad place. And this isn't the first IA investigation where he cites this experience. You don't look back at that time feeling like your marriage was in a bad place?

[Caroline (Joel Kern's wife)]

I do not.

[Andrea Gunning]

Do you even recognize the person on that tape?

[Caroline (Joel Kern's wife)]

So when I hear the investigation, I see the stranger who I lived with. I do not know that man. That man who is on that tape is evil. I don't know anything about him. He just didn't think he would get to that point. That's why he started with. With the lying, denying, deflecting, and shifting any of the responsibility. And then when he had to fall on his sword, magically, it became all this was going sideways at home. I have demons. I need help.

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah.

[Caroline (Joel Kern's wife)]

It turned into a different deflection.

[Andrea Gunning]

Yeah.

[Caroline (Joel Kern's wife)]

He would make comments about, quote, slaying his demons, and then he would talk about, I just need to get back to the man I was. I could be the husband I was. I could be the dad I was. But the fact of the matter is, what were you?

[Andrea Gunning]

Who were you ever?

[Caroline (Joel Kern's wife)]

That's a question that the kids and I have grappled with. Those are the moments where I question things. But I have to remind myself. The kids and I were living the truth. He was living the lie.

[WashablesOfAs.com Advertiser]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andrea Gunning]

How long has it taken you to get to that place to be able to say that?

[Caroline (Joel Kern's wife)]

I do it daily. I still have to do it daily.

[WashablesOfAs.com Advertiser]

Tired of spills and stains on your sofa? WashablesOfAs.com has your back featuring the Annabe collection, the only designer sofa that's machine washable inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly prices. That's right, sofas start at just $699. Enjoy a no risk experience with pet friendly stain resistant and changeable slipcovers made with performance fabrics. Experience cloud like comfort with high resilience foam that's hypoallergenic and never needs fluffing. The sturdy steel frame ensures longevity and the modular pieces can be rearranged anytime. Check out washablesofas.com and get up to 60% off your Anna Bay sofa backed by a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping or restocking fees. Every penny back Upgrade [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may.

[Andrea Gunning]

Apply Are there two sides to every story? Academy Award nominee Robin Wright stars in the girlfriend on prime September 10, a spine tingling psychological thriller that will make you question everything you think you know. Laura has the dream job, the perfect husband and a son she'd die for. But when her beloved Daniel brings home his new girlfriend, Cherry, played by Olivia Cook, something feels off. Is Cherry the sweet, innocent girl she appears to be? Or is there something more manipulative beneath the surface? And how far will a mother go to protect her son? Also starring Lori Davidson, the Girlfriend is a twisted game of cat and mouse where nothing is what it seems and everyone has something to hide. Don't miss the Girlfriend. Streaming exclusively on Prime September 10th. Sometimes the truth is just a matter of perspective. You know what all these betrayal stories I share on this podcast have in common? The feeling of I should have known. That haunts every victim, because there are always signs that something just isn't right. This also applies to a kind of betrayal that isn't talked about often. Sluggish digestion, constant fatigue, brain fog, trouble losing weight, and poor sleep. These are all signs that your gut has turned against you, when in fact it should help you feel your best, because scientists now say it's the foundation of your vitality and overall health. And that's where bioma comes in this novel supplement has everything you need for a healthy and thriving gut. With every serving you get prebiotics, probiotics and postbiotics that are science backed and third party tested so you can enjoy comfortable digestion, boundless energy, better focus and restful sleep, and even smoother weight management. When following a healthy lifestyle. Just take two tiny bioma capsules each morning before breakfast and start feeling your best. Visit Byoma Health and use code BETRAYAL to get 15% off your first order. That's Byoma Health code BETRAYAL for 15% off. Looking to simplify your health routine? Discover Groons, the new way to get your daily greens without the hassle. Say goodbye to messy powders and large pills to swallow. These awesome all in one eight daily gummies are packed with over 20 vitamins, minerals and 60 whole food ingredients. They're vegan, gluten free and taste just like a fruit snack. And there's great news for parents. Groon's Kids has just launched. These tasty gummies are specially made for your little ones, packed with everything they need for growth, brain development and immunity. Say goodbye to the drama of getting your little ones to take their vitamins. Don't miss out. Right now you can get up to 45% off your first order. Just use Code Betrayal at checkout. Make getting your daily Greens the easiest way possible with Groons where serious nutrition meets serious fun. You're gonna love it.

[Commander Jeff Stroessner]

So just to go on the record.

[Andrea Gunning]

About a month after Joel's internal Affairs interview, Judgment Day finally came. Joel had to face his boss, Commander Strossner, who had believed in him, thought the best of him. You've heard the date Several times now, April 11, 2022. And Strossner got right to it.

[Commander Jeff Stroessner]

I don't want to belabor the point here. This is not did not expect to have to do this with you, Joel. I really never expected this would have to be the case. Did you get the agenda for the meeting? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Okay.

[Andrea Gunning]

Strossner began by laying out the facts of the case.

[Commander Jeff Stroessner]

About 4:30 to 5:00pm you informed me that you knew you were under investigation. When I asked how you knew that, you proceeded to tell me about the confrontation that occurred on February 5, professing your innocence and adamantly denying any involvement in the situation. I had no reason not to believe your innocence in this case, which meant that either the couple was lying and needed to be criminally charged, or that another cop was impersonating you and needed to be fired and that we would make sure the case was thoroughly investigated. After being advised and signing the Garrity Warning, which included an order to answer questions truthfully. You knowingly lied, providing false information to the investigators for nearly 40 to 45 minutes. You initially attempted to blame someone you know is for causing you and your wife's problems and somehow causing this complaint by catfishing you online. You initially denied ever having an account on FetLife and denied knowing either. Only after being confronted with specific facts did you begin to admit to having sex with. While admitting to having sex with her, you initially denied the encounter occurred in your police car. You later confessed you might have met her on FetLife and then did admit the sexual encounter did occur in your police vehicle. After taking a break in the interview, you returned. Finally, you admit that you arranged a meeting in Memorial park with. You stated you did not have sex with her because there was no penetration. And quite frankly, I think this is quibbling over the details because she did perform oral sex on you in the back of the suv. There are discrepancies in the rest of the interview between what and you describe as having occurred in the back of the suv. Quite frankly, those details are irrelevant to proving the overall case. However, given the false statements you've provided to Internal Affairs, I have no reason to discount any of her recollection of these events. That's my overall case summary. Lieutenant, do you have any comments that you want to make?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

I'm extremely remorseful. I'm extremely ashamed, humiliated, embarrassed, upset. I'm begging for mercy. I literally was not in my right mind, and I've been going through a hard time for several years. And I can promise you that nothing like that would ever, ever happen again. I initially lied in the IA interview because I was humiliated, embarrassed.

[Commander Jeff Stroessner]

Scared.

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Did not want to have this come to fruition and lose everything that I have. I am on bended knee asking for forgiveness. I promise you that none of this will ever happen again. I understand that I've shattered your trust and it's something that I want to work hard to get back. I apologize for any of this happening. The last three months have been hell, and I just am begging for your mercy.

[Commander Jeff Stroessner]

I'm going to move to the. To the next section here and just talk about my comments and insight regarding this case. This case is not about the sex or how you met these women. Honestly, I don't really care what your preferences are unless the PD is somehow brought into the situation as occurred in this case when you sent essentially these strangers a photograph of yourself in police uniform and used your work vehicle for your Activities. That's what made this a police issue. The week the allegations was filed. You didn't need to say anything to me about the case. And quite honestly, I wish you'd not said anything to me at all. You literally lied to my face on that Wednesday afternoon, proclaiming your innocence, and then less than 20 minutes later was texting with to tell her there was drama and that you deleted everything. Even on Friday, when I tried to reassure you that I had no reason not to believe you and would make sure that that this case was thoroughly investigated, you didn't flinch, even when I threatened to criminally charge this couple or maybe fire another employee. And you later thanked me for believing in you. To me, this is the most disturbing piece of the entire case. Even in your interview with IA As a former investigator yourself, you lied to Jimmy and Raphael, trying to pin this on a third person named. You had five and a half weeks to think about your interview and decided to stick with your story and deny that any of this occurred. The fact that you lied, the fact that you were willing to put this on a third person or possibly even have charges filed against a complainant is absolutely horrific and constitutes a violation of your oath in office. I also cannot ignore the previous history from the 2019 case.

[Andrea Gunning]

Strossner is referring to the case when a reporter contacted the CSPD because Joel was up for the public information officer job. The reporter alleged that Joel had sexually harassed her and other reporters in 2019.

[Commander Jeff Stroessner]

Commander Mandel wrote in regard to that incident. Lieutenant Kern is a valuable member of the department, is committed to putting this behind him and being a better person and leader for the organization. I have full confidence that Lieutenant Kern has learned from his mistakes and he will not place himself or the department in this position again. I'm hearing some of the same things that were said last time in that case.

[Andrea Gunning]

Strossner is right. Back in 2019, Joel had used some of the exact same language. Here's Joel in 2019.

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

I'm ashamed and I'm embarrassed and I'm humiliated. And again, I take full responsibility for my actions and I ask for mercy.

[Commander Jeff Stroessner]

Not only did you put yourself in that same position, you made it worse. Someone might make that argument that you were initially evasive in the IA interview, but that you rectified it later by telling the truth. I want to be clear that I do not believe you fully redeemed credibility or you were completely transparent. Even near the end of your interview, you were specifically asked by Lt. Sokolek whether you deleted the WhatsApp to which you told him yes. Later, Lt. Chanza asked you, do you still use WhatsApp currently? And you replied just to talk to. I believe the slip up proves you're still not being completely honest with investigators that you're unable to keep track of all your lies. And. And quite frankly, I question how many other women are out there that may bring forward allegations in the future. Now, before I present my findings, I want to address something you stated during your interview with Lieutenant Chanza and Sokolik. You said that you believe you need help and it would be nice for the department to help you get there. And you said, quote, we pay a lot of lip service about our employees as family. And I'd like to. To maybe somehow believe in that and recognize I've had issues. I want to point out a couple things. In 2019 you received nothing more than a written reprimand at a time when you might have been able to get more. And you said you were already seeking the help. I believe this department has treated you more than fair regarding these previous indiscretions.

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

I'm not saying that they weren't.

[Commander Jeff Stroessner]

I'm about to go into the findings of the policies. Did you have anything you wanted to add?

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Yeah, that. I know that the department has been good to me. I am sorry that I. That this kind of stuff happened a second time. But I swear that there is nobody else. I'm willing to do whatever it takes to hold on to my employment and to. To show that I can do better. I apologize from the bottom of my heart. I understand that it looks bad the way everything's been discussed here. And again I'm begging for your mercy.

[Andrea Gunning]

Stroessner was unmoved.

[Lieutenant Joel Kern]

Okay.

[Commander Jeff Stroessner]

Let's go through each of the policies. So as I go through these, remember the standard is a preponderance of the evidence. First one is 906.30. It's the take home vehicles policy. By preponderance of the evidence your take home vehicle was inappropriately used. This allegation is sustained. 400.30 Another big one.

[Andrea Gunning]

Conduct unbecoming of a police. Police officer.

[Commander Jeff Stroessner]

It's reasonable. Believe that using photographs of yourself in official police uniform to gain the trust of women you have met on FetLife and then having sex with them in an official police vehicle has brought disrepute to the police department. Further, your false statements to me at the onset were unsolicited and used to paint yourself in the most favorable light regarding this investigation. This allegation is sustained.

[Andrea Gunning]

Then stroessner reached the most egregious of Joel's violations.

[Commander Jeff Stroessner]

And the final allegation is 400.13. Employee conduct departing from the truth. Employees will not willfully or knowingly depart from the truth in giving testimony or in connection with official duties. You were given a guaranty advisement and signed that advisement, knowing you were being ordered to tell the truth. By preponderance of the evidence. You gave a false statement for the first approximate 40 minutes of the interview. Only when confronted with evidence did you finally begin to confess some of your role in this case. Yet, as I said, I still am not sure that you've told the whole truth. This is sustained as well. This whole thing has just been like a shock to my conscience. It really has. And honestly, I think we've been painted into a corner where there's really only one outcome in this case I can recommend. I have no option but to recommend your termination.

[Andrea Gunning]

Caroline, it feels like maybe for the first time, someone with authority sees the through Joel's facade. What went through your mind when you heard Joel's boss confront him?

[Caroline (Joel Kern's wife)]

I think it's fascinating to listen to when Stroessner says, and I believe there's more. There's more women. I question how many other women will come forward. And then hearing Joel say, I swear these were the only two. I swear these were the only two. And next thing you know, it's all kinds of different names are being revealed and all of these sexual encounters and sexually illicit behavior while he's under the guise of a police officer.

[Andrea Gunning]

Did you ever talk to Strozner?

[Caroline (Joel Kern's wife)]

I did.

[Andrea Gunning]

What can you tell me about that?

[Caroline (Joel Kern's wife)]

There's two people who a lot of people will be shocked that I'm grateful for. The first one is the male who came to my front door, the husband of the wife who Joel had an affair with. And the second one is Joel. Jeff Strossner. I'm extremely grateful for Jeff Strossner. I was at a community event, and he was there. And as we walked out together, I said, hey, Jeff. And I could tell he was nervous to see me. And he was like, oh, you know, hey, hey, Caroline. And I said, I'd like to thank you. And he looked shocked. And I said, thank you for not believing him. Thank you for the due diligence of hearing this one out and not giving him the benefit of the doubt. You may have saved mine and my kids lives. Thank you. And Jeff's always been a very friendly and a little bit stoic of a man, but his voice started to crack and you could see the emotion on him and he said, oh my gosh, thank you for saying that. I appreciate you saying that. I have thought about you and the kids so much. So when I hear Jeff Strossner's commentary in this interview, I'm extremely grateful for him. I know that just hours later is when Joel's going to do his reveal to me and the kids. So it's an interesting thing to reflect back on and think, yeah, what that day must have been like in his world.

[Andrea Gunning]

So we know that Strassner recommended Joel for termination, but he wasn't fired, was he?

[Caroline (Joel Kern's wife)]

No.

[Andrea Gunning]

Joel wasn't fired. And this case only gets more interesting. We'll explore how he was able to avoid termination on the next episode of Betrayal. Thank you for listening to Betrayal Season four. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email [e-mail] that's betrayalpodmail.com also please be sure to follow us on Instagram, betrayalpod and me andreah gunning for all Betrayal content, news and updates. One way to support the series is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Please rate and review Betrayal 5 star reviews. Help us know you appreciate what we do. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Betrayal is hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Carrie Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our associate producers are Caitlin golden and Kristin Melchiori. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krynczyk. Story editing by Monique Laborde, audio editing and mixing by Matt d', Alvecchio, editing by Tanner Robbins and special thanks to Caroline and her family. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines Music library provided by My Music and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[WashablesOfAs.com Advertiser]

Life's messy. We're talking spills, stains, pets and kids. But with Annabe you never have to stress about messes again. At washablesofas.com, discover Annabe sofas the only fully machine washable sofas inside and out starting at just $699. Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics, that means fewer stains and more peace of mind. Designed for real life, our sofas feature changeable fabric covers allowing you to refresh your style anytime time need flexibility. Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly perfect for cozy apartments or spacious homes. Plus they're earth friendly and built to last. That's why over 200,000 happy customers have made the switch. Upgrade your space today. Visit washablesofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life. That's washablesofas.com offers are subject to change. Change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Commander Jeff Stroessner]

Fox 1 is now live. It's the new way to stream all your Fox favorites all in one place. That means NFL Sundays and college football games, breaking news with the Fox voices you trust and your favorite show streamed as they happen. So nothing gets spoiled. With Fox one, you get it all live edge of your seat plays, jaw dropping moments and that feeling like you're right there in the action. Start your seven day trial today. Offers are subject to change. Go to Fox One for complete terms and conditions. Fox one we live for live streaming now.

[WashablesOfAs.com Advertiser]

Every business has an ambition. PayPal open is the platform designed to.

[Andrea Gunning]

Help you grow into yours with business.

[WashablesOfAs.com Advertiser]

Loans so you can expand and access to hundreds of millions of PayPal customers worldwide. And your customers can pay all the ways they want with PayPal, Venmo, pay later and all major cards so you.

[Andrea Gunning]

Can focus on scaling up when it's.

[WashablesOfAs.com Advertiser]

Time to get growing. There's one platform for all business PayPal open grow today at paypalopen.com loans subject to approval in available locations.

[Andrea Gunning]

Does Friendly have a taste?

[WashablesOfAs.com Advertiser]

If it does, it's probably like hello's.

[Andrea Gunning]

Peppermint flavored anti plaque and Whitening toothpaste. Brush away plaque, show tartar who's boss and remove surface stains to naturally whiten. Hello's thoughtful and flavor forward products make brushing your teeth feel like a confetti.

[WashablesOfAs.com Advertiser]

Filled bathroom dance party. So say hello to to hello with.

[Andrea Gunning]

The always cruelty free never tested on animals toothpaste that's made to spread smiles. Visit helloproducts.

[WashablesOfAs.com Advertiser]

Com and let hello add some everyday.

[Andrea Gunning]

Yay into your life. This is an iHeart podcast.