← Betrayal Trauma Recovery
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- [00:00]
A
Hey, it's Anne. If you've listened to this podcast, you know I interview women who are dealing with their husband's lies, anger, or infidelity. And since I've been doing this for over 10 years and I've interviewed over 200 women and counting, we know exactly how to help women in this situation. If you relate to anything you hear in this episode, we can help you today. I created our live daily group sessions because when I was going through it, no matter how hard I tried, I. I couldn't find the help I needed. The entire BTR team has been through it, too, so we know how to anticipate the issues you're likely to face when you discover your husband's lies or infidelity. No matter where you live, no matter where you are in the world, we can help you immediately. Check out our group session schedule@BTR.org group I have a member of our community on today's episode. We're going to call her Evangeline and she's going to share her story with us today. Welcome, Evangeline.
- [00:56]
B
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
- [00:58]
A
Let's start at the beginning. Can you talk about how you felt about your husband?
- [01:03]
B
At first, ours was like a real romance. I thought I was marrying the man of my dreams. I thought as a good Christian girl and woman, this was what I had earned, I had deserved. I was in love, head over heels in love. He checked all the boxes. He was a man of faith. He honored, respected me. He did a lot of thoughtful gestures. I was completely in love back then.
- [01:35]
A
Did you notice anything that was a bit off and how did you define.
- [01:40]
B
That there were moments that were off? My ex spouse has had a substance abuse problem his whole life. And so there would be moments where he would act out in that, but they would be isolated moments, like just a couple times a year where it would be severe. The rest of the time it was just moderately high and misuse. And the times that were severe, he would apologize, he would make right, he would say when it happened again, and it was infrequent enough that I never told anyone, I really never saw it, that he had a problem, an addiction. I just thought, he's growing up, he's figuring it out. As long as it doesn't get any worse, I'm going to be okay. We're going to be okay.
- [02:34]
A
So on these times that were like once or twice a year that things were really intense, was the behavior that was alarming directed at you?
- [02:44]
B
No, I wouldn't say it was directed at me. He would have his own spiral about himself. I would usually be in bed asleep, and then I'd find out what he had done during the night or he never came to bed. And then I'd find out, where were you, what were you doing? He was in another part of the home or stayed up late with friends. He would get severely intoxicated to the point he would blackout. He would also smoke and be very dangerous in how he would dispose of that when you're that severely under the influence.
- [03:19]
A
So like maybe put your house at risk.
- [03:22]
B
My house? My room, yes. I cannot tell you how many incidences I lived in fear that there would be a fire in the middle of the night because of his carelessness. That was a fear I had the majority of my marriage.
- [03:38]
A
Okay, so you're aware of his alcohol use and his smoking. Were you aware of any pornography use or infidelity at this time?
- [03:47]
B
Infidelity? I found out 15 to 20 years into my marriage. We were married 26 years. The porn use was from the beginning. He introduced porn at the beginning of our marriage. I said, no, I didn't like that. I didn't appreciate that. Having kids. Two to three years after we were married, I was pregnant with my first child. I became very uncomfortable. The Internet was just starting at that point, if you remember. Yet he somehow always found access to those things right away. I always thought it was weird. He was like, I'm just observing to learn things. I didn't have much experience, I didn't know much. I just wanted to watch, to learn.
- [04:31]
A
This is what he would tell you?
- [04:33]
B
Yes.
- [04:35]
A
So he's telling you that he's watching porn to learn how to be a better husband. I have a very dark sense of humor at this point.
- [04:48]
B
No, I get it. I. How many times have I lived there? I don't know that it was so much to be a better husband, but definitely maybe to be a better lover or to be more educated.
- [04:58]
A
Or just a flat out lie.
- [04:59]
B
Or just a flat out lie?
- [05:01]
A
Yeah. He was lying to you to try to convince you that he was doing this to be educated, but really he just wanted to watch it so he could masturbate?
- [05:10]
B
Yes. For me, many people would hear my story and even I, now I hear my story. And I think I was so innocent and so uninformed. I was raised gothard. I was raised very innocent, very sheltered, very uninformed. We weren't even permitted to go to the public library. I went to the most liberal Christian school where I was raised in the city. I was Raised in and had to do a science fair project and go to the library to get books. And it was a major ordeal in my family just for me to be granted permission to go do research in a public library. A science fair project. Information was severely controlled. I had to write a write an article in my civics high school class freshman year from my current Sunday newspaper. And it was a big ordeal in my family for me to be granted permission to purchase a Sunday newspaper and read articles out of it.
- [06:12]
A
Weren't most families that, that were part of the Gothard movement homeschool families?
- [06:19]
B
They were homeschooled and yeah, I was their homeschool. It was just coming out when I was in middle school, going into high school. That was my parents plan for me.
- [06:29]
A
You were raised before the homeschool curriculum came out?
- [06:33]
B
Yes, it came out during the end of my middle school and my high school years is when ATI began and my parents wanted to put me into that. I pushed back. My family of origin was a very destructive and abusive setting. I knew I physically would not live through her version of homeschooling. And so I reached a point. At 14 I told my mother that she will not ever get to homeschool me for one day because I will not be alive for her to do that.
- [07:08]
A
Did you threaten suicide then?
- [07:10]
B
I did.
- [07:12]
A
To keep yourself safe?
- [07:14]
B
Yes.
- [07:15]
A
From her homeschooling?
- [07:16]
B
Yes. She finally believed me. There had been a severe incident three years before at one of our Christian schools where she severely physically abused me. I could barely walk for weeks and I knew I wouldn't survive. There's no way. I was not going to let it be her choice to take it from me.
- [07:39]
A
Basically it would have been your choice to take your life on your own terms rather than be homeschooled by her and have her take your life on her terms?
- [07:51]
B
Yes. At the time I was struggling with severe depression, severe fear. Living day in, day out, 247 with her. That was terrifying. By the time I get through high school and get to dating a guy at 21 who seemed to check all the boxes. He was my freedom. He seemed to love and adore me. He seemed to accept me. Despite my dysfunctional upbringing and very controlling parents. Even while we dated, he still chose me. I felt so blessed at the time. This was a godsend. This was an answer. This was a safe place for me to begin my adult life and my marriage and my family. This was safer than what I had been raised in.
- [08:42]
A
That makes total sense. That is exactly what you would think, especially under the circumstances. You think he's a man of God because that's what he has told you. Can you talk about your feelings once you're married?
- [08:54]
B
The first 10 years of our marriage were blur. Our two youngest out of three kids had severe medical issues. We lived in hospital for seven years with two of my kids in multiple states. Those years were just survival, truly. We were a part of a church. We were both members. He became a deacon of our church. During that time I was involved in women's Bible study, women's leadership. He had a job, I had a financial business. We were crazy busy. Life just went and in fact, I don't know how I lived that lifestyle. To be honest, not looking back, I get tired thinking about it.
- [09:35]
A
When you say you had a financial business, was this your own business or was this something that you shared with him?
- [09:42]
B
I had my own business. I was a financial consultant. I did bookkeeping for multiple churches and nonprofits. He also played a part in my business. He did taxes for some of the customers that I had. We actually had a very thriving business. It was mine. About 13 or so years into our marriage, we decided to move across the country. He wanted us to go down to one income, one job. He wanted me to be a full time stay at home mom. So I sold my business to another accountant in our city and we moved 1500 miles away from home and just his job and I became a full time stay at home mom for the next 16 years. I am not a college graduate. When I got divorced, it was 16 years since I had worked. It's been very challenging on this side of the divorce, trying to figure out how to work, how to provide for myself. I'm back in school, trying to finish my degree. I look back on it and I think it was a mutual decision. We both wanted the move. I didn't realize the consequences that I was at risk for by giving up my financial security, stability and provisions for myself in the Christian evangelical community. I was in stay at home. Moms were great. We were promoted. We were encouraged to do that. That was the right choice to do for your family. I didn't realize as a woman what I would be giving up, what I would be sacrificing. The future price. I was at risk of pain and that I am currently living in now.
- [11:23]
A
Yeah, now looking back with more insight now than you had at the time for obvious reasons, because you're being kept from the truth and you're being manipulated and gaslit and do you think this move was in part a power move? On his part that he wanted more control.
- [11:44]
B
He did. I'm able to see it now in hindsight, and when you look back over a decade plus of conversations, then you're able to collect all that data. And it painted a picture, a very clear picture. He did, he did want all the power and control. I even have part of that confirmed in a statement in a conversation a few years back with him of when I started going back to school, he was not supportive. He would call me in the middle of my day, interrupt me, when he had not ever done that behavior before. It was very challenging. I would keep my study time to only the hours my kids were at school. It did not roll over into the evenings where his work did. My study time did not roll over onto the weekends where his work did. I had to keep my study hours only when I had no other duties. And whenever he would make a comment a couple years later, I would ask, why did you do that to me? And I was like, it felt like you didn't want me to go to school. And he flat out said, I didn't. You were growing and changing and moving on in your life. And I didn't want that to happen. And so hearing the confirmation of he actually didn't want me to better myself, improve myself, to show an interest and a desire in things I enjoyed and that I turned out to be really good at, he didn't want that for me. And that was very shocking. It was just another betrayal. On top of the hundreds I had already had, I could only be the version of myself that he married. At 22, I wasn't allowed to grow, change, become an adult. I wasn't allowed to be an educated and a degreed adult. I had to be just the high school graduate.
- [13:37]
A
Looking back, do you think he found your business threatening?
- [13:41]
B
I don't think he found my business threatening. He has a finance degree in financial jobs, so his level of financial understanding was always greater than mine. My role in my business was to do the accounts and the bookkeeping end. He was qualified to do tax returns and sign off on them. I wasn't. I don't think he felt it was challenging to him as a professional. I think he simply just didn't want me working so that my attention could be solely for him and the kids.
- [14:12]
A
Yeah. Part of the Living Free workshop focuses on the fact that we were created with talents and interests that we can use to our own betterment and that abusive men would really like us to believe. And we've been conditioned to believe this through various Societal or religious scripting that our life is for them rather than for ourselves. And so I hear you describing that kind of an idea that he felt like you were to serve him but not to do things for yourself for your own improvement. Am I hearing you right?
- [14:55]
B
Yes, you are. He did not want me to be doing things to better myself or to pursue my interests. I only had certain categories of interests that would meet the approval, such as my kids, medical, to keep my kids alive. That was okay. I could do ministry and women's ministry through my churches. That was permitted. But no doing something to better me or a talent or a trait, he did not have value or appreciation for that. One of the biggest areas that came to light after we moved across country and we had been there for a couple of years, I found out about an organization being a court appointed special advocate for children. I identified with this role so strongly. As soon as I found out about it, I signed up and became a court appointed special advocate. I have since done it in three states. I love this work. You get a lot of continuing ed hours on childhood growth and development on childhood abuse and trauma. The more I was trained, I'm suddenly realizing I'm learning about myself and I'm sharing the stuff I'm learning with my spouse. Isn't this fascinating? And I'm learning this about me and I'm having words and descriptions and definitions to my own life experience. And the more I learned about literally was like a tipping of the scale. The more my information and knowledge went up, the more his behavior digressed and became destructive and worse, it matched so succinctly. One night the instructor actually made a statement that has stuck with me. I've never forgotten it because many people who seek to do this type of work with children who are coming from trauma and abuse, oftentimes they share that in their own life stories. And she said, occasionally we will get a volunteer who is presently in an unsafe relationship in their home with their life partner and we will see a correlation in the behavior in that destructive person. I think back now and I'm just like, my life was out of control. In fact, the only place that was stable was doing my work. My personal life was in mayhem. My spouse was using drugs and alcohol to an extreme unsafe level and pornography. And he was also acting out with other women at this time. And within a year of me being told this information and training was when he did act out with another woman. And this woman was a family member.
- [17:44]
A
Wow.
- [17:46]
B
Sometimes I think we just go through a series of betrayals that are so deep and so intense. It's almost like when another one happens. You're living in such a state of shock and awe and the reverberations from each of these betrayals and shocks. Looking back, it's like you couldn't even react anymore. The hyper vigilance is so extreme, so intense, because you're just waiting for the next one to happen. You've had so many reactions to so many shocks and betrayals. There's no reactions left to have.
- [18:30]
A
Kind of like you're numb. Like you've done everything that's even physically possible at that point. Is that what you mean?
- [18:37]
B
Yes. I lived through all the reactions, and at that point, I'm just. I am numb. Freeze. Freeze is my go to. By this point, I was developing severe agoraphobia. We had done another big move across the country. And then two years later, we would do another small move, but to another state.
- [18:59]
A
I want to talk about these moves because my ex, he wanted to move a lot, like, excessively. And I thought it was because he just graduated from law school and then he lost his job. There seemed to be reasons at the time, but then when I looked back, we moved six times in five years, and the last move is the house I'm still in. He was arrested from this house that I'm still in, and we moved into this home. I was thinking it would be our forever home. My mom is a kitchen designer, and so remodeling is something that my family does because my mom helps with that and she does a lot of the labor. And I was like, yeah, we're going to buy this particular house because it's the perfect type of house to remodel. It wasn't expensive, and remodeling it wouldn't be expensive. And within, I'd say 10 months of moving into this home that I was planning on remodeling and living in forever, he was looking at other houses. He wanted to move again. And I was like, no, we're not moving. And he really started flipping out, and that's when he got arrested. But this pattern of frequent moving I've seen with other abusive men. Do you feel like this was a pattern with him or was this just, like, circumstantial?
- [20:21]
B
It might have been some circumstantial and a pattern. I think the thinking that there's always going to be something better and something different to be experienced in the new location.
- [20:34]
A
I also wonder if somebody in the location where they want to move from is on to them. Maybe we don't know. Because people don't know you right when you move in and they're, like, excited to meet you. Especially in my faith where, like, a new person in our congregation. That's so exciting. So every move, you're welcomed with open arms. I always wondered if he realized, oh, I'm not able to pull the wool over their eyes, so I gotta move on. Or maybe a few people have given him, like, the stink eye or caught onto them, even if I wasn't aware of that, that he wanted to move on because it wasn't as exciting after that. But that was one of my thoughts. But I don't know.
- [21:16]
B
I always wondered when we would move. We moved four times in 10 years. I lived in four states in 10 years.
- [21:25]
A
Wow.
- [21:26]
B
These were all corporate moves for his work, for his job. The jobs moved us. There were multiple incidents with his employers or with a fellow employee. I would never get the whole story or the whole truth. And so I never really knew everything, but I knew enough to know that he was misbehaving and acting out inappropriately, unprofessionally.
- [21:55]
A
And is that why he was being moved?
- [21:58]
B
No, we moved for different employers. These were new jobs in new states.
- [22:04]
A
Was he fired?
- [22:06]
B
So our present state that we live in, the job that moved us here seven years ago. Yes, he was terminated for fraternizing.
- [22:17]
A
Fraternizing, meaning sexual harassment.
- [22:20]
B
He never used the word sexual harassment as to why he was let go from that job. He used the word fraternizing. And fraternizing, if you look up, the definition is having a sexual relationship with co workers.
- [22:32]
A
Wow.
- [22:34]
B
We were physically separated at the time, running a room. But even still, he's an executive. He's a dentist. Contract. You're not allowed to do these inappropriate financial relationships with other employees, let alone female employees. The truth. It's taken years during my divorce and the two years post divorce for me to find out many of the discoveries my attorney has found out. But yes, we strongly believe that when he started the job here, where we presently live, he started it a month or two before the family moved to join him here. That he already was beginning the relationship with the woman he is presently with and has been with throughout the divorce. Those three years, I was fighting for my marriage. I wanted my marriage, even though it was a complete disaster. Full betrayal, full addiction. I just thought, you need to figure your life out. You need to get help. But me and the kids will still be here once you get there. That's truly what I thought. And I'm like, I will give you the freedom to go figure your problems out and to get help and to do what you got to do. I never dreamed that he would already be wanting to divorce me in the marriage.
- [23:59]
A
You're still in this, like, willing to help you with this addiction that you're claiming you have. Because a lot of times they'll say, I'm an addict in order to just manipulate us to support them or help them. But they never have any intention of doing anything about their behavior. And so it just prolongs the abuse.
- [24:25]
B
It did prolong the abuse. In our second move, I said, you go get help. You are drinking in dangerous situations with the kids, with your employment. I do not feel safe. I need you to get into a program, a 12 step. I need you to see a counselor. I need you to get help. We were having financial accountability. He could not leave the home with any cards. Only a small amount of cash would be given to him. I would know when he would take a card to go get gas for the car. We shared all of our passwords for all of our emails, all of our Internet access. We had one shared password that worked for all accounts. So I don't know where or when he was doing what he was doing electronically, watching porn, having conversations with other women. We had set up accountability, we had set up transparency. I always felt safe and secure with those measures because we had them throughout our whole marriage. He would just slip up here and there until life became just one constant slip up. I didn't realize I was experiencing abuse until I became a court appointed special advocate. It was learning about children being abused that I'm suddenly realizing, oh, yeah, you say those same things, you do those same behaviors, even as an adult, to another adult, that's still abuse. That's how I learned it was abuse. I had never spoken to anyone about my marriage. That was something that was so severely frowned upon. I remember telling one woman at church that I had become fairly good friends with, that I had found on his phone. He was having inappropriate texts with a woman at work. And at the time, I'm going to drop a name here, it was Shantae Feldman's, her material. I actually taught that material at a women's conference the year before. And so I truly believed the mentality and the teaching that, hey, you give your husband enough material, you keep him busy and satisfied, he will not go look at porn or other women. In other words, if I keep my husband busy and worn out, he's not going to have time for anyone else. Yes.
- [26:57]
A
I'm unfamiliar with the Name that you just said. Is this some kind of marriage counseling or is she like a how to be a better wife kind of person?
- [27:06]
B
Yes. Yes. You fill the images for your husband's mind. You give him an abundance of that. You will then satisfy him and he will not have the need to search out other sources. You will satisfy and fulfill. When I decide to do something, I'll go all in. And I went all in. And it didn't work. It failed. He cheated, he betrayed, he continued in porn. And I didn't have anyone to bounce these ideas off of. I was on my own. You don't talk bad about your husband behind his back. You don't take your problems to anyone. I had never even understood what sex addiction was. This was never discussed in any of my faith based community circles ever. I think I'd heard of like Hollywood celebrities or something that had the sex addiction problem, but, you know, I didn't relate to that. So it wasn't until the last couple years of my marriage and I was already separated from him that I had learned what sex addiction was. And I came across what betrayal trauma is. And when I heard a betrayal trauma podcast describe partners of sex addicts, women, what they experience, what their symptoms are, emotionally, mentally, physically, strategies for recovering from betrayal trauma, I suddenly heard something I identified with. We talk about how destructive behaviors, when they are so severed, that is abuse. And when you do destructive things over and over, that is abuse.
- [28:51]
A
It's the definition of abuse that you got from your training. It's just the basic definition of abuse. And the betrayal trauma is from abuse.
- [29:04]
B
Yes. I reached the point, how can I help someone else through their trauma when I can't be doing it for myself? Of absence. I began to pour myself into searching out any resource I could find. Betrayal trauma, sex addiction, narcissistic personality disordered. So many searches and so many books. And of course, at the beginning I didn't understand. You can't take this information to. To an abusive and addicted spouse. It's in the books. And so I made that mistake of taking him the information I was learning. And I truly thought if I just said it the right way, if I just approached him the right way, if I had the magic way to say it, he will understand and he will see the light. I know he's intelligent, I know he's smart. I know he's capable, I must be failing. I'm not saying it right. Let me try it another way or a different way. Today he'll finally get it. Tomorrow he'll finally get It I kept trying. Then he started using my knowledge against me. Then he started accusing me of being the abuser, accusing me of being the destructive person. The biggest part of my story that scared me so much with him is the job that moved us to this state was the first time he was at hospital for behavioral health. This was his employment. He's a hospital cfo even though he has no mental health education of any kind. Psychology 101 that everyone has to take in college. Beyond that, no education, he's an executive for the facility. But he's coming home and telling me, you wouldn't believe the wonders that we see in patients who are receiving shock treatment. It's actually still a very valid treatment that is practiced today. And you want to believe how these people are emotionally stable as a result of receiving shock treatment. And he's like, you really should look into it for you. Yes. He scared me so bad. At that point, I was struggling with severe agoraphobia. I was terrified. I knew no one. I was in a strange city. I had no friends. I had no family. I had no one to call and talk to. I was completely isolated. I was terrified. If I can't trust the people who I live with, who are supposed to be for me and are the people who are supposed to love me and have my back, how could I possibly trust a stranger? I knew I could trust my co workers and my child advocacy work. But beyond that, I had no one personally. And I was terrified. I was terrified he would commit me against my will and that I would have had shock treatment done to me against my will. And you lose memory. And looking back, now that I know that's one of the effects of that treatment, I understand why he wanted it so bad. We had reached a point in our marriage that I had learned so many truths. There was no return from that knowledge.
- [32:24]
A
Once you see it, you can't unsee it.
- [32:27]
B
You can't unsee it. And I didn't realize then how desperate he was for me to not know the truth of him. I know it now.
- [32:41]
A
So you become a child advocate, you recognize what abuse is, but you still don't recognize that he's abusive. Then you recognize that he's abusive and you think, oh, if I can just explain it to him well enough, by the way, this is totally normal. You're completely normal. I went through the same thing. I think every abuse victim does because they've manipulated us to think that they've like, given us that impression. They've gaslit us to think that so then you go through that phase, which we've all been through, of, okay, if I can explain it to him or if I can get him to the right therapist or something, then he'll get help.
- [33:19]
B
He went to a therapist, and I went to one appointment, not to do a couples therapy, but to say, hey, I want to hear from the therapist that you are telling the therapist everything.
- [33:30]
A
Is this a CSAT or is this a. What type of therapist? Is it a addiction specialist?
- [33:36]
B
Yes, they do. For addiction. Yeah. Not csat. No. Essay. Yeah. Just a traditional therapist with substance abuse training. And I told both therapists, I'm not safe. I don't feel safe. I don't know what he's gonna do next that's gonna destroy me and the kids, our lives. I'm terrified. Did you know that neither of those therapists had one thing to offer me? Not one thing? They didn't follow up, and they didn't have anything to give me.
- [34:13]
A
That is, unfortunately, most women's experience when they work with an addiction specialist for their spouse. It's so disappointing and, like, invalidating and, frankly, dangerous. And that's why I started our group sessions and our individual sessions, and also why I wrote the Living Free Workshop. The Living Free Workshop helps women determine their husband's true character and then teaches safety strategies. So basically, it helps women know exactly what's going on and then also what's going to happen next. Because I found most therapists, therapy in general, especially couple therapy or therapy for troubled marriages, they just look at you and blink. They might say the word boundaries, but they don't know how to actually teach boundaries because quote, unquote, communication is always the solution when it comes to therapy. So I am so sorry. That's so discouraging. So they just, like, stared at you and just, like, blinked at you?
- [35:14]
B
Yes, that's exactly what they did. They had nothing to offer. They had no suggestions for a safety plan. They didn't look to him and say, hey, we need to stop right now. And at this point, we weren't even addressing the sexual misconduct at this point. We were just addressing his behavior with addiction. It was so out of control and dangerous.
- [35:39]
A
Even though it felt absolutely terrible to you at the time, and even though they did not do the right thing, there is a silver lining there. And it's that they didn't say, oh, I can help both of you, and this is how we're going to do this. And the reason why that's a silver lining is that false hope. Sometimes we call it hopium. Around here that like, oh, I will treat your husband when I will make him safe for you is super dangerous. We don't recommend any men's programs because we've seen time and time again that they use that to continue to manipulate and control. And they weaponize all the therapy language. It almost makes them like super abusers because they know how to speak. And it gets real scary really quickly when they've become these, like, almost mutants of themselves through learning the therapy language. Did you experience that part at all where they're really good at using the therapy language as weapons against us?
- [36:44]
B
I experienced it to a small degree. After we had been separated for a year, I had requested I need a space to have productive conversations with him. Anytime we would converse or meet up on our own, it would just be circular conversations with no conclusion. It was just rabbit chasing. You could never conclude one topic on one. I was still vested in my marriage. I still wanted a marriage. Even though we've been separated for a year. I had requested, can we go find a therapist where we will have a space to have conversations so we're both held accountable for how we participate in that conversation. To converse, not couples counseling. At this point, even though I still desire to keep my marriage and keep my future, he was saying, I'm 99% done. And you know what that did to me? It took me a couple appointments before I finally understood that statement. I'm 99% done. There was that 1% chance and that dangle I was being dangled. And he at that point was exercising the power of dangling me. Even though he was done, he was already living with the woman he had been for a couple years. I just didn't know it and nobody told me. My kids knew it. He knew it. I was the only one who didn't know it. But he kept saying, I'm just 99% done. So I'm just thinking, okay, he's not thrown in the towel. The therapist knew he'd thrown in the towel before I did.
- [38:26]
A
That's so hard. And I'm guessing the therapist didn't mention this is abuse either.
- [38:31]
B
No.
- [38:32]
A
Yeah.
- [38:33]
B
And that therapist actually with the credentials is trained and should have known and should have seen.
- [38:40]
A
Generally, therapists don't have abuse training. It's a weird, strange situation because people think that therapists should have abuse training, but in general, they don't have a lot of it. They don't assess abuse or. I've also seen this, which I think is scarier, when they think he is abusive. And I am the Best therapist, and I can help him with his abuse. That scares me, actually, even more than the person who doesn't recognize it, because if the guy didn't want to be abusive, he knows what he's doing and he would have stopped his abuse already. And so therapy is not really going to help him. So it makes me very nervous.
- [39:21]
B
It doesn't. Therapy does not fix the abuser. I've since learned.
- [39:26]
A
And for those of us, me included, who thought he just needs to know what's going on, where I went wrong there, and I described this really well and why this happens in the Living Free workshop, he knew what he was doing, so he knew he was lying. He knew what was going on. And so if I was like, ah, this is what's going on. He already knew that it wasn't going to change him. Because if knowing would have changed him, he already knew and it would have changed him already. It was the opposite. He knew exactly what he was doing and he was doing it on purpose. And that is really hard for us to understand because they don't want us to find out that they're doing it on purpose.
- [40:09]
B
It is hard. It's really hard to come to terms with the fact that the person that you committed your life and that you love, honor and cherish and you bring such a beautiful, valuable side to the relationship, to the table. It's just so hard to imagine that they're doing these destructive things on purpose and they actually don't care how much you're harmed, how deep you're hurt, how devastated you are. And then you get blamed for your response, for being emotional, for being angry, for being any of the valid emotions you're supposed to experience. When you are faced with betrayal and shock and hurt and devastation in your life imploding, you're going to have those emotions, those are valid and they're appropriate for those to get judged. And you're emotionally unstable, you've got the problem. But their decades of behavior is suddenly not even the issue or not even the focus, you know, and there's one more part of my story. Before I became an advocate, we were actually on a corporate retreat for his work. So all the wives did a spa day together and we were having very healthy girl talk, nothing inappropriate. But it was spending this time with these other women who were not from the evangelical community that I had been raised in. They were just average, ordinary, really great women. We were talking about marriage and we were talking about intimacy. And I had made a comment that we do have intimacy and it's healthy in my marriage. It's great. In fact, if he feels the need to be intimacy. Even if I'm passed out, I'm asleep, I was okay if he needed to be intimate. And the reaction from these women you.
- [42:10]
A
Were sharing what you thought in the moment was an example of your healthy sex life. Thinking that they would be like, oh, that is so healthy that he can have sex with you when you're passed out.
- [42:22]
B
I was so ingrained with. My only role and goal in life is to please him to whatever self sacrifice I need to do. My purpose is to please him, even if that means use my body when I am asleep and on sleeping medication. And I cannot verbally consent or even have any memory or knowledge it happened afterward. I thought that was my duty as his wife to provide that him no husband should ever be doing that, ever. You have to consent. I'm like, I consented. And they told me, no, that's not consent. You have to be conscious in the moment, consenting in the moment. And so I started having conversations with my spouse about it. And it turned out that had been something he'd been doing way longer than I knew he had been doing. And it was something he continued to do even after that conversation. He did it for years.
- [43:33]
A
I'm so sorry.
- [43:35]
B
You know, it was shocking when I found out the times I didn't know. It's like if he did it and then told me and I knew it was somehow a little bit better and okay, but finding out that it had been going on for years and then once this conversation started happening with him, you know, this person inside out, you know, when they start lying, I mean, you can tell in the moment when they are not being truthful with you. And then it was having all the subsequent conversations and in each of those, his lies grew more the retellings, the details would change in his retellings. And then having these conversations with him as well, when I would begin to get flooded with flashbacks of where I would have some conscience recall and that I didn't know what to do with that I had nowhere to turn. I was alone in that I still stayed married and had a very active intimate life with him for many more years to come, like eight more years, it was very hard to reconcile.
- [44:44]
A
Absolutely.
- [44:44]
B
When you have the good times and then you have the falling apart times, and then you have the shock and odd times of like, is he really. Is he really that bad? Is he really that vile? No, I have to be misunderstanding. That had to have been an exception. That can't have been the norm again. It's just a series of traumas that never seemed to end. So when I finally was separated from him, finally realized my marriage is over, I need a divorce. I had at that point already done betrayal trauma work. It was a 17 month long divorce with a full trial. I then turned around and the week I turned 50, he filed the appeal. So I had another 17 month long. I just won the appeal, but he's still challenging my win. Sometimes you talk about how they expect us to still be that newly innocent bride that they marry. And I actually just got a text 2 weeks ago on the 4th of this month communicating that exact thought. He said, just be reasonable the way you saw me once upon a time. He really does want me to go back and be that 22 year old bride who thinks he is the most amazing person ever who can do no wrong. And unless I view him like that, I'm not reasonable. Just because I'm asking for something that is the law legally entitles me to ask for something from Focus on the family. Help your husband be the hero to your children. And I remember when that came out. I remember doing that for years. I remember that to a T. I can actually remember the dates and the times I intentionally where I was with my kids. Even though he was working late, even though I didn't know where he was, even though whatever he was doing, I was still talking him up to my kids. Oh, your dad wishes he was here. He'll be here as soon as he can. You have a great dad. He loves you. Right? I did that. And I didn't just do it once. I did it for years.
- [47:14]
A
And you did it because you thought it would help. It was actually an act of resistance on your part. So I want you to like hold your head up high because you genuinely thought that it would improve things. You had been manipulated to think that it wasn't because you're stupid. It wasn't because you, your brain doesn't. No, it's not because you're emotionally unstable. It's an act of resistance. It was the only thing you could think of at the time to keep yourself safe. And the sad thing is they're preying on women's vulnerabilities. They in order to focus on the family. I'm going to put that in quotes and make a family stronger. They really should be educating women about abuse.
- [47:57]
B
Yes. It took me decades, Ann. I'm 51 and I was married at 22. It took me decades to understand all the areas of abuse that I experienced in my marriage. It is not defined when we're being brought up as young girls or even teenage girls or college and career young girls. It's not taught in any of our evangelical circles. It's barely taught in our educational systems, but definitely not in our private Christian educational systems. I went through 13 years of private Christian school and abuse was never discussed or talked about, ever, Even in our women's ministries. In our church. I was in a leading role for a decade and not ever was curriculum brought to me to say, hey, we should be teaching this. We should be taught about this. Never. We're also not taught how to be that good friend for when we find out they are in a destructive and abusive marriage. We don't teach women how to be a good support, how to be a safe place to live, how to be a good friend. How can I walk alongside a woman who is in the middle of trauma and abuse and betrayal? What should I say? What should I not say? So big churches do we have that have bookstores. These materials are not in their bookstores shelves. They're not promoting them. Missed opportunity.
- [49:23]
A
It is. Which is why I had to start podcasting and saying, this is abuse. Betrayal. Trauma is caused by abuse. Pornography addiction is always going to be abusive to a woman. The lies, the gaslighting, all of that is. It's abuse. You can't call it anything else.
- [49:42]
B
We weren't even taught about erectile dysfunction either. And that my husband needed to begin the pill for that.
- [49:51]
A
He was too much porn. Yeah, because he was using too much porn and he was masturbating too much.
- [49:56]
B
I never even learned that fact until my late 40s. I didn't even know that piece of information over 15 years and I didn't know it's pieces of information that should be common so that we are equipped as women to know what we're experiencing because we've been taught the vocabulary, the language, the definition, what it looks like. If it looks like this, then you're probably having abuse and you're probably having sex addiction and you're probably experiencing betrayal.
- [50:28]
A
I think one of the reasons why it's not common knowledge and why it's not plastered all over the place is because many people are very unhealthy and they want to hide it. They really want you to think that it's caused by their shame or their childhood trauma or something. When a lot of us feel shame or we have childhood trauma, we have problems. And we don't lie to people and deceive them on purpose. So A lot of people want to, I'm going to say, pretend or act like this isn't a choice that they're making a conscious choice they're making to harm people in order to exploit them. But that is what it is. And it's really hard for the courts to wrap their head around it, some therapists to wrap their head around it, friends, family, to realize abuse is a conscious choice and he knows what he's doing and it's really harmful. And of course she's going to be upset. Of course she's going to be hyper vigilant. Anyone who had been through would be hyper vigilant because she had someone who was on purpose hurting her. Like, it's really hard for people to wrap their heads around it. So I'm so grateful that you were willing to come on today to share your story because all of us sharing our story is what helps other women realize what's going on. So your bravery today to share has been amazing.
- [51:57]
B
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
- [51:59]
A
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