What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Betrayal Trauma Recovery

Episode Title: What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again? – Shelly’s Story
Host: Anne Blythe, M.Ed.
Guest: “Shelly” (pseudonym)
Date: March 12, 2025

---

Overview

This episode features Shelly, a member of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery (BTR) community, who courageously shares her story of surviving multiple relationships characterized by betrayal, emotional and sexual abuse, and gaslighting. Her journey covers experiences from childhood through adulthood, culminating in the shattering of trust with a partner she had believed was her safe haven. The discussion delves deeply into the realities of betrayal trauma, the impact of societal minimization, the process of disclosure, and the struggle for healing and validation.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Life: Betrayal Trauma’s Roots

• Shelly describes experiencing betrayal trauma from birth, starting with her biological father's infidelity while her mother was pregnant. This led to her mother’s postnatal depression and emotional unavailability (01:00–02:00).
  • "When I was born, she sunk into deep postnatal depression... she wasn't able to care for me fully." (Shelly, 01:17)
• Later, her stepfather also lived a double life, and she was exposed to sexualized behavior and further betrayal as a teen.

2. Abusive Relationships & Grooming

• Shelly was groomed at 16 by a man in his 40s who was a porn addict and who abused and exploited her sexually (02:30–05:25).
  • She eventually realized this experience met the criteria for sex trafficking.
  • "It was grooming. It was an abuse relationship. It was someone preying on someone that was really young and naive." (Shelly, 04:25)
• She left after he became violent toward her and their infant son.

3. Pattern Repeats: Emotional and Psychological Abuse

• Recounted a later relationship with a “pathological liar.” Despite no physical violence, Shelly suffered deep emotional and verbal abuse, isolation, and gaslighting. Her instincts were repeatedly dismissed as “trust issues.” (06:18–11:56)
  • "He broke my identity apart, told me who I was and who I wasn’t and chipped away at me." (Shelly, 06:52)
  • Uncovered infidelity via a phone bill, and endured a particularly traumatic confrontation with the affair partner.

4. Finding 'True Love'—and Another Betrayal

• After escaping prior relationships, Shelly reconnects with a longtime friend, now partner, who she believed was her soulmate and healing force (11:56–12:11).
  • "I felt for the first time in my entire life that I'd been healed by true love and that everything that I'd been through before was leading to this." (Shelly, 11:41)
• Seven years into their relationship, she discovers his hidden porn use, which she describes as devastating betrayal trauma—worse than anything prior.

5. The Impact of Gaslighting & Weaponized Self-Doubt

• Shelly details how her partner allowed her to believe that her discomfort and lack of trust stemmed from her own “damage” rather than his deception (12:11–15:59).
  • "I’m not damaged. I’ve just been around people that have treated me really badly." (Shelly, 14:16)
  • "He would lecture me on trusting him... knowing that he was lying to me." (Shelly, 15:59)

6. Understanding the Depth of Abuse

• Anne underlines the severity of this form of abuse:
  • "I don’t know why anyone can think that this form of abuse is not absolutely severe." (Anne, 16:12)
• Shelly calls it a “spiritual crime against another soul,” underscoring the profound injury (16:28).

7. Disclosure and Its Aftermath

• The process of her partner’s disclosure was lengthy and filled with minimization, half-truths, and continued lies. Only after persistent confrontation did Shelly finally extract the full story (18:17–20:45).
  • "There was a lot of lies after the first admission, half-truths, outright lies... you’re not even allowing me to heal because you’re not telling me the whole truth." (Shelly, 19:35)
• She highlighted her “warning system”—her intuition that persisted even when she had no concrete evidence.

8. Seeking Safety, Healing, and Validation

• Shelly and Anne discuss the dual journey of her partner’s attempts at change and her own quest for healing (21:18–29:33).
• Therapy was cautiously approached due to fears of societal normalization of betrayal.
• Shelly credits finding the BTR podcast (through her partner’s suggestion) as a turning point for validation and feeling part of a supportive community.
  • "It had only been very recently that I’d found out that this sort of trauma has a name... I wanted to share my story because I think I feel that is another step forward in healing." (Shelly, 29:39)

9. The Power of Validation and Community

• Shelly expresses how critical validation from other women and knowing she is not alone has been in her healing:
  • "I feel like there's an army of women out there that I’m part of. Before, I felt very isolated." (Shelly, 31:33)
  • Anne: "That’s why I do this podcast: to give women like you an opportunity to share your story so you can feel heard by people who understand." (Anne, 32:14)

10. Grieving, Healing, and Looking Forward

• Both Shelly and Anne discuss the need to fully process each layer of grief; healing is neither quick nor linear (33:47–34:42).
  • "You really have to feel every layer of grief to be able to release yourself from it... the only way out is to go in." (Shelly, 33:47)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Early Betrayal:
  "I was actually born into betrayal trauma... all of those hormones and feelings... were going into me, too." — Shelly (01:03)

• On Gaslighting:
  "He would lecture me on trusting him... knowing that he was lying to me." — Shelly (15:59)

• On Spiritual Injury:
  "I described it to him as a spiritual crime. It feels like a spiritual crime against another soul."
  — Shelly (16:28)

• On Realizing She’s Not Damaged:
  "I'm not damaged. I've just been around people that have treated me really badly." — Shelly (14:16)

• On Sexual Coercion:
  "The sexual coercion has only really crystallized for me quite recently." — Shelly (18:06)

  • Anne: "We would not have maybe made those choices or done the things that we did had we had the information they were purposefully withholding from us." (17:37)

• On Intuition:
  "I just had this nagging feeling. An uneasiness of him being at home alone." — Shelly (15:00)

• On Community & Validation:
  "I feel like there's an army of women out there that I'm part of."
  — Shelly (31:33)

  • Anne: "That is a powerful thing... before I... felt like I was on my own in that." (32:30)

• On the Grieving Process:
  "You have to feel every layer of grief to be able to release yourself from it. The only way out is to go in."
  — Shelly (33:47)

---

Important Timestamps

• 01:00 – Shelly discusses her earliest exposure to betrayal trauma.
• 04:03 – She realizes her experience with an older man met criteria for sex trafficking.
• 06:18 – Introduction to second relationship marked by emotional abuse.
• 11:56 – Rekindling with her now partner and the hope of healing.
• 12:11 – The discovery of his hidden porn use.
• 14:16 – Shelly reframes her sense of “trust issues” as intuition, not damage.
• 16:28 – The harm of betrayal framed as a “spiritual crime.”
• 18:17 – The traumatic, protracted process of disclosure.
• 21:18 – Describing the immediate aftermath, and partner compartmentalization.
• 29:39 – Discovery of BTR and beginning to find validation and support.
• 31:33 – Reflection on community and collective validation.
• 33:47 – The necessity of feeling and processing grief for healing.

---

Tone and Language

Shelly’s tone is candid, raw, and reflective, marked by moments of both pain and resilience. Anne’s tone is compassionate, validating, and supportive, providing context and empathic guidance.

---

Final Thoughts

This episode gives voice to nuanced aspects of betrayal trauma often dismissed by society. Shelly’s story illuminates the complexities of repeated betrayal, the insidiousness of gaslighting, and the vital need for validation and community support. The conversation ends with hope: healing is possible, though it demands courage, acceptance, and time. Shelly is invited to return to share her future growth and insights.

---

For listeners seeking community or recovery support, visit BTR Group Sessions.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, it's Anne. If you've listened to this podcast, you know I interview women who are dealing with their husband's lies, anger, or infidelity. I've interviewed over 200 women and counting. If you relate to anything you hear in this episode, we can help you today. I created our daily live group sessions because when I was going through it, no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't find the help I needed. We know exactly how to help women in this situation. The entire BTR team has been through it. So we know how to anticipate the issues you're likely to face. And when you discover your husband's lies or infidelity, no matter where you are in the world, we can help you immediately. Check out our group session [e-mail] group I have a member of our community on today's episode. I'm going to call her Shelli. She's here to share her story. Welcome, Shelly.

[B]

Hi. Thank you.

[A]

So Shelly has experienced betrayal trauma in multiple relationships. Let's start at the beginning.

[B]

Okay. So I was actually born into betrayal trauma. I didn't know what that was until very recently, but my biological father cheated on my mother when she was pregnant with me. So literally, all of that stuff that was in her body, all of those hormones and feelings and emotions when she was pregnant with me were going into me, too. So when I was born, she sunk into deep postnatal depression and then. And obviously betrayal trauma. And she wasn't able to care for me fully. So I was left, not through any fault of her own, but neglected, really, as a baby because she wasn't able to cope with what she was going through emotionally. Then when I was around seven, she met my stepdad, who I didn't trust even as a child. I just had this sense that there was something wrong. And later found when I was in my teens that he was also leading a double life. He was watching porn. He actually made sexual advances towards some of my male friends when I was a teenager, which led me to jump out of the frying pan and into the fire. Because at the same time, I was being groomed by a much older man in his 40s. When I was around 16, I believed I was in a relationship with him, but now I understand that it was not. I was his victim. He abused me on every single level you can possibly imagine. He was a porn addict. He chose to use porn every day, like, to degrees that were beyond comprehension. Made no effort to hide this, was completely open about this. He sexually humiliated me as a Young teenage woman. And he took photos of me and showed them around. And even now I know that they're still in the world and have years later, after leaving him, found out from friends that he'd showed them. So I have no doubt that he's probably even tried to make money off those. I got pregnant when I was 19, and the reason I left him was to protect my son because he beat me whilst I was holding him. This wasn't unusual at all. The violence got a lot worse when I was pregnant. So when I had my son, I think I just turned 20, I was in the hospital for a week and he was having sex with someone else. I was with him for a very short time after that, and then I fled and I left all of my family and friends behind and I left the county to try and find safety for my son whilst the learning to be a mother, I was also going through. What I didn't understand was ptsd, which I now understand. It was only years later that I understood this.

[A]

Have you ever considered yourself a victim of sex trafficking with that man who took pictures of you and disseminated it as pornography?

[B]

I do now. I was not. I was really uncomfortable. I saw the photos that he was, like, parading around and you can see how uncomfortable I was. I have a son who's not much younger than I was now, and I was a child, and he was friends with people that were in that world. I remember him saying to me, I could have you in prostitution if I wanted to. He was saying it like, I look after you so well. I'm not putting you into that world. Look how well I treat you. There was I definitely. The whole relationship wasn't. It was grooming. It was an abuse relationship. It was someone preying on someone that was really young and naive.

[A]

Your story sounds similar to sex trafficking victims and how they're groomed and they're not aware. They think it's a relationship, but they don't realize he's targeted them for this purpose. I'm so sorry.

[B]

Yeah, no, 100%. I'm totally aware of that now. But it took quite a few years for me to. In fact, it was fairly recently. I actually looked back and was like, that wasn't a relationship. I was just. It was like sex trafficking. He used me and my body in any which way he desired and cheated on me, lied to me. And now I've heard that he's in the industry.

[A]

When you say industry, you mean pornography industry?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. So I don't have any contact with Him. I disappeared. I feared for my life. I ran away.

[A]

He now is, but it also sounds like he was at the time too.

[B]

Yeah, he was around a lot of people that were in that sort of lifestyle.

[A]

The exploitation business.

[B]

Yes, exactly. I was completely exploited. I stayed there for four years with him through four years of mental, emotional, physical. He used sexual humiliation. I used to enjoy humiliating me in that way. It took a long time. I say it took a long time to get over. But then you can't really heal then when you fall into another relationship where you're then being abused again.

[A]

I'm so sorry. That sounds awful.

[B]

Yeah, it was years later. So since I had my son, I was just looking for a safe family. I just wanted to bring my children up in a happy home. So I fell into another relationship with a man that I believed that I loved, who later turned out to be a complete pathological liar. He wasn't violent with me, so I thought I was safe because my experience before, I didn't really recognize what he was doing to me as abuse. But he was verbally vile to me a lot. He just broke my identity apart, told me who I was and who I wasn't and chipped away at me. He'd go out all night, not come home, be full of lies. I knew, my heart, knew that he wasn't loyal to me, but I just kept so because of my past, I thought that I had trust issues. And this was propagated by the men that I've been with because they're like, oh, yeah, you've got trust issues. This is the damage that you've got because of your past.

[A]

Did he tell you you had trust issues as a way to manipulate you?

[B]

Yeah, completely. At the end of the relationship, I turned into a bit of a detective. Found out I was still breastfeeding my daughter when he was having an affair with someone else. And the way that I found out was so horrific. So I got an itemized phone bill, and there was thousands of the same number. So I was like. My instincts were telling me something wasn't right. So I got this itemized phone bill. I rang and a woman answered, and I just knew. And when I confronted him, the gaslighting went, like, through the roof. He was just pulled out all the stops. And so I called her with a complete open heart, believing that she was being lied to too, because I knew he was a liar and he was good at it. I'd seen him lie to people around us and just think, like, why? I don't understand why you're lying about this stuff when there's no need. He was just pathological with it and approached her, messaged her, said, look, I believe he's married, I believe that he's lying to you too. And she didn't reply to me for a while, but then when she did, she sent me 17 screenshots of their messages together. I had a baby that was 1 years old that I was breastfeeding. We'd not long been on our first family holiday and he had been messaging this woman whilst with my daughter sitting on his knee whilst we were on holiday and she verbally attacked me. She called me every name under the sun. I approached her with, with no venom. It was I, I believe that you're being lied to too, because this is what's actually happening. This man is married. And yes, she, the abuse I got off her was horrendous. She threatened my 16 year old son to him, like messaged him, threatened him. She was awful. And yeah, I lost a stone in two weeks after that. I went, I didn't eat, I stopped eating. I was in what I now know to be really strong. Betrayal, trauma, my whole world was falling apart. That's when my now partner came along. We'd been friends for 20 years and I regarded him as a close friend. We'd been close even though we hadn't seen each other all the time because we lived in different counties. He came along and he was just like, he's lying to you. Because he was pulling me back in, this guy, he was twisting my head to the point where he was calling this other woman crazy, saying she was a stalker, really trying to pull me back in. And my sons, my oldest sons, just, mum, he's lying to you. It was really hard to get out. It felt like an orbit that I was in. I'd get so far away from him mentally and emotionally and then he'd pull me back in. I'd be questioning what was real and what wasn't. Again, my now partner helped so much with that. Maybe a year after that, my now partner opened his mouth and confessed that he'd always had deep feelings for me, which I'd always felt deeply for him as well. We'd known each other for 20 years. It was like suddenly everything in me lit up. It was like everything switched. All of my ex's power over me went and suddenly I was full of love and full of light. So we had the most beautiful love story. It was like fairy tale level love story, like star crossed love that had been going on for 20 years. But neither of us had ever spoken to each other about it. And we'd been in different relationships. We'd been to each other's weddings as friends. There was never anything lustful. It was always just deep heart caring. We share children now from past relationships. So I actually felt for the first time in my entire life that I'd been healed by true love and that everything that I've been through before was leading to this. And it was like trials of fire to get to the other side or the island in the ocean of were stormy weather. But I'd found my safe space. I'd found my person and it.

[A]

I'll quote a country song from Rascal Flats, like God bless the broken road that led me safe to you thing. Like all of these things were worth it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because I found you.

[B]

Fast forward seven years, I find out that he has been hiding a porn addiction. I don't actually believe it's an addiction. A porn choice that he decided to make and hide from me. The betrayal trauma that I feel now is actually so much worse than anything that I experienced before because he was the light at the end of the tunnel for me. And this relationship made me believe in true love again. And then all of that came crashing down on my first D day. I had many D days after the first admission. I thought I had damage and I had trust issues. That had been my narrative that I'd believed. And I actually said to him, I'm so sorry that I have trouble trusting you because I'm damaged from my previous traumatic experiences with my other relationships and even how I entered into the world. And he took that and he allowed me to believe that it was me. So I felt uncomfortable leaving him in the house on his own. I felt uncomfortable with him at work. But I put it all down to, I've got trust issues. I'm damaged. I haven't dealt with the trauma in my past. So I'm ruining my perfect relationship with my trust issues, which actually every single thing that I asked him, even at the points where I asked him, turned out to be true. And I. It was completely vindicated. So what has actually happened? So I was carrying this. I've got trust issues. I'm damaged for such a long time believing those people around me that were just lying. I released myself from that and I woke up within myself and realized I don't have trust issues. I've just been around loads of people that are lying to me and I can feel it.

[A]

Yeah, you have a superpower.

[B]

Yeah. Suddenly that thing that I'd been carrying for so many years has suddenly lifted. I'm not damaged. I've just been around people that have treated me really badly.

[A]

Was that a relief to you?

[B]

In some ways it was a huge relief because like I said, I thought I was damaging my perfect relationship. So it was like a double edged.

[A]

Sword at the time. You were being manipulated to think that you had problems, that this was your fault. But now that you know the truth and you're looking back and you're like, oh, no, he really was gaslighting me. He really was lying to me. Can you tell me more about why you didn't want him at home by himself or why you were worried about him at work?

[B]

It was just a feeling. It was literally just a feeling. There was no concrete evidence at all. I didn't have anything. He was very good at keeping that separate. Completely separate. I just had this nagging feeling. An uneasiness of him being at home alone. An uneasiness of him when he's at work.

[A]

What an amazing gift.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To you. I'm so grateful that you were able to see that. You have been strong and brave and nothing was wrong with you, even if you did have trust issues, quote, unquote. Because, like, why trust people when they're not trustworthy?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

But in this particular case, you have your warning system that's going off and now you're more confident in it because you found out the truth. But to know that he was weaponizing that against you, that's what. Why it hurts so bad.

[B]

Yeah. And like being in a relationship where he would lecture me on trusting him and how important trust was within the relationship, knowing that he was lying to me.

[A]

That is so devastating. Yeah, that is absolutely. It's so bad. Sorry. I just. I don't know why anyone can think that this form of abuse is not absolutely severe.

[B]

Oh, I know. It's abuse on every level. I described it to him as a spiritual crime. It feels like a spiritual crime against another soul. It goes so deep for me and for everybody that's experiencing this. I don't understand how anyone can literally look themselves in the mirror, knowing everything that they know about themselves and just carry on like, it's fine.

[A]

And I can see why that was the most traumatic because you trusted him the most and he lied to you on such a intimate level.

[B]

Yeah. I asked him just plainly, quite often whether he was using porn. And always he'd be like, no, I only have eyes for you. I only have eyes for you. It wasn't like it just never came up. I asked him a lot because of these feelings, my instincts. So it was. There's no, oh, thought you'd be fine with it. It wasn't that at all. He very much knew where I was with that, and he still chose that to hide that from me, which is.

[A]

Abusive on so many levels, especially on a sexual level, sexual coercion. When women say, I feel like I was emotionally raped, basically. And people are like, what? And we're not kidding. Like, that's exactly what happened. Because we would not have maybe made those choices or done the things that we did had we had the information that they were purposefully withholding from us.

[B]

Exactly. And the sexual coercion has only really crystallized for me quite recently because this has been going on for a year now.

[A]

So it's been a year since he.

[B]

Told you the D days? Yeah, I would say D days, because there was quite a lot of that. It took quite a long time for full disclosure, and it just got worse and worse. The things that were being disclosed.

[A]

Tell me more about that. Was he disclosing them to you because of therapy or, like, how did the other disclosures happen?

[B]

No. So after the first disclosure, he sort of tried to make it really light, but. And smoked and was like, sometimes. And I pulled away and I was like, you said you never did that. And instantly my heart was broken. So then he started to lie and minimize. He said, oh, it was only three times in our relationship that I've done that. But the thing is, once I switched on to the fact that he was lying to me and had lied to me, I could see it, and I could literally see him snaking around in front of me, lying to me. It was my warning system and not letting it go and saying things like, you said this and that doesn't add up. And, okay, tell me this then. So what is it? There's more. I could feel it. I could feel it in my body every time he was lying to me, and I could see it. So there was a lot of lies after the first admission, who went through for about four months, maybe a bit more of serious, like, minimizing half truths, outright lies, with him shifting around and tripping himself up and saying something that he hadn't said before, or saying opposite things, saying two different things, two different sides of one story. And I said to him, you're not even allowing me to heal because you're not telling me the whole truth. So after four or five months of this, and I was like, I was on it I was on fire. I was just call it the BS knife because I was just so sharply cutting through all of these lies. And it culminated in. We went away and stayed in a hotel room. Was like, okay, I'm going to tell you everything. And he literally listed everything from childhood. Told me stuff like when I wasn't around about and looking at other women. Just gave me what I felt was the full story. And it was incredibly traumatic.

[A]

Were you interested in that or was this like a way of grooming you, or can you talk a little bit about that?

[B]

No, I wouldn't leave it until I got the full story. I needed to know everything. I needed to know who I was with. And it felt like pulling the truth out of him. It was my instincts that were telling me, he's still not telling me the truth. There's more and more, many times of real horrific bombs that were dropped in my lap with more and more truth. It got worse and worse.

[A]

So how are you feeling now?

[B]

Like I said, it's been a year. I did have moments where I was like, I don't even know if I can love you anymore after this level of lies. But because of the work that he's done, doing a lot of meditation, he had a light bulb moment when we were listening to something that was saying about how the body doesn't know the difference between what the mind is thinking. So if you're reliving your trauma all the time, he was compartmentalizing and keeping this in a separate dark box. And then he was the really good dad and he was a really good partner. And in all the other boxes, he was full of light and this wonderful man. But then he had this dark box where he kept all of that stuff. So he was literally giving that energy to another person, though, when you're supposed to be completely committed and loyal to me.

[A]

On that note of that, he's quote, unquote, such a good dad. It was a feeling that you had that something wasn't quite right. But I want to talk about the other types of abuse that you experienced for a minute. The gaslighting and the emotional and psychological abuse. Do you think that even though it wasn't overt, because I'm guessing he wasn't screaming in your face, he wasn't overtly calling you names. That would have been obvious to you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But do you think that might have been what you were picking up on, even though you didn't know that you were picking up on it because you couldn't see it and you couldn't Tell. But do you think that was what you were picking up on?

[B]

Yeah, I do. I reckon. I feel that my instincts were warning me self protection was kicking in.

[A]

So you and your partner were together in a committed relationship for how long when he disclosed his pornography use?

[B]

Seven years. So it'd been going on for seven years.

[A]

Why did he disclose it? That's a question that I always ask. Because they could be repentant at this point where they're like, oh my word, I can't live like this anymore. I've got to come clean, I've got to change. That's a possibility. There's also a possibility where they want to hurt you. I'm not saying that's your situation at all and I'm not trying to convince you of that. But in my case, my ex, when he was my husband, was in pornography addiction recovery and he was doing so well. And then near the end, there was this sudden turn where he started telling me he was using porn. But before that he was lying to me about it. Now when I look back, I'm like, I think he might have been having an emotional affair. There was something going on and he wanted me to be the cause of the demise of our marriage. And so he was like starting to be overtly aggressive and abusive and then also just tell me he was using porn because he knew that was a deal breaker for me. And so that's one of the questions I want women to think about, is, why now? Because that might help as we're trying to heal or as we're trying to determine what do I want to do? Is this safe for me? Is it not safe for me is to ponder that question. If he lied to me the whole time, why is he telling me the truth now?

[B]

So I questioned him on that and he said that he felt it was getting to a point where it was out of control. He didn't ever feel good about himself because of what he was doing and living this double life. But he was scared to tell me the whole lot in one go. He didn't have the strength to tell me everything in one go. I don't believe he was trying to hurt me. It felt like he lightly slipped in the truth. And then he was like, now I've got all hell to deal with. So then he was in a state of trying to backtrack and minimize and giving me non truth and half truth. And so I don't believe that he was trying to hurt me with that. I think that he maybe subconsciously wanted to change. I hope that's the case. I definitely don't believe that he was using that to try and hurt me because he's not vindictive in that way. And he was always. Was just wanting to look after me, like he knew me in these past relationships. He was my friend, and he came along like this knight in shining armor and just wanted to protect me and then had this realization that he'd been exactly the same and which he's actually struggled with. Struggling with. We've spoken in great depth about the conditioning and the objectification of humans, but, like, obviously, from this perspective, women and how he was part of that. And he's horrified with himself, and I believe that's genuine. He was in groups of friends that were. It was just normal. It was just. This is what guys do. It's just normal. That may be fine. If you're in a relationship and you're fine with that, then that's fine. But this isn't. And it wasn't. And he chose that because he knew my stance on that, and he knew he was lying to me as well. So this wasn't normal. And okay. And to consenting people and the sexual coercion thing, realizing that I hadn't been giving full consent. We've spoken about that a lot as well. So he's. Yeah. Horrified with himself, which I think is good.

[A]

Yeah, that is good. I was wondering about, like, therapy. In my opinion, the likelihood of it making him worse is too risky.

[B]

I had the exact same feeling, actually. I wasn't sure that any form of counseling would be helpful because of the tendency in society to normalize this stuff. And as long as you're not physically cheating with someone else, then what's the problem?

[A]

You're like, all the lying. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I was very apprehensive about any form of counseling. We went to the doctors. He wanted me to come with him. We sat with a female doctor, and he started talking and he broke down. He was saying he just didn't understand how he could do this to me. He was struggling with his mental health and his self perception. He was advised to take counseling and the. They offered him a woman counselor on a screen, video calling. And I was like, I'm not comfortable with that. I'm not comfortable with that at all. Like, we're talking about you. You're looking at women on the screen. I'm not comfortable with you having counseling with a woman on a screen. That's like, in this space. I don't feel safe with that. So he requested a man, and luckily he did end up with a really good counsellor who he was able to express where he was with in a safe place without it being normalized. And the lady doctor, when we went together, she said, do you want me to point you in the direction of porn addiction services? And he was like, I don't actually think I have an addiction. It's more of a choice that I decided to stop where he didn't go down that route. We both had counseling separately. We were recently thinking about doing couples therapy, but again, my instincts were not fully on that either. So we haven't. We've done a lot of work together, just between us and in meditations and in just hearing each other. A lot of it's been me. A lot of it's been me speaking my heart and my pain. He's struggled at times to deal with the anger because he's got a tendency to defend himself. So he's working through that now. But his determination to make it right has given me hope and has stuck me here. Actually, the full disclosure of everything that he did he could have quite easily not told me, is that it's been the truth that's kept us together.

[A]

Can you talk about your journey to find BTR and want to come share your story?

[B]

I was talking to him, and I said to him, there's so much help for you. There literally feels like there's no help for me. And it had only been very recently that I'd found out that this sort of trauma has a name and then was starting to look into betrayal trauma and then connecting all the dots from the rest of my life previously. And it was actually him that was. He was looking for ways to help me. And he discovered your podcast, and the first one that he found was, women say this is the best way to heal from betrayal trauma. And he was like, I want you to listen to this. And that was how I found you. And I wanted to share my story because I think I feel that is another step forward in. In healing, in our journey, putting this out because I've kept it very close to my heart and it's been hard.

[A]

As in part of your journey to healing, as finding community with women who have been through this.

[B]

Exactly. And feeling so validated in a world that normalizes this stuff and if it's everywhere. And feeling so validated for feeling so strongly about this and feeling so heartbroken about this. That validation has given me so much strength.

[A]

Let's talk about that validation for a minute. Can you talk about, like, the difference in knowing that women are horrified and traumatized, and they're experiencing emotional and psychological abuse on these really intense levels, and that pretty much all of society doesn't really recognize this type of trauma. What's your feeling now that you realize that you've been completely normal and that there are so many other women who feel the way you do?

[B]

I feel like there's an army of women out there that I'm part of. Before, I felt very isolated and talk to friends and it would just be like I didn't speak about this, about my personal experience with friends, but just in conversation. How. Oh, yeah, as long as they're not cheating, then they come back to you at the end of the night. It's the validation of knowing that this actually affects people a lot greater than is spoken about, because people don't talk about it. It's giving it a voice.

[A]

And that's why I do this podcast to give women like you an opportunity to share your story, to share how you feel, to share how this affected you, so that you can feel heard by people who understand.

[B]

Yeah, that is a powerful thing. That's a really powerful thing because before I. I was very aware of my emotions, but I felt like I was on my own in that.

[A]

I am so grateful that you're a member of our community. I'm so grateful for you supporting me in my healing process. I am honored and have been honored through the years to hear all of these stories. Women who share these stories are in a vulnerable place. And it's such an honor to, like, sit with you knowing that I have been in the exact same spot, maybe a different spot, because my husband's character, he had a deceptive character. I've been thinking about that a lot lately, about how I really believe that people can change. And that makes this job hard. Right. Because how do we know if someone really is or they're not when they've lied to you all these years? Right. So that place of where you are right now in your healing process is a really vulnerable spot. But it is okay to be there. And there's no way to get out of it other than to go through it because you want to make the right decision for you and your family. And we get that.

[B]

Yeah. And you really have to feel every layer of grief to be able to release yourself from. From it. And it's hard thing to face because it's not anything that anyone would choose to feel, but that the only way out is to go in. And that's the process that I'm in. And it feels like I've been doing it forever now.

[A]

Hopefully not forever. Right. It's been so interesting, my process, I feel so good now, but I there was, I don't know, 14 years where I felt like this is going to be forever. So I totally understand. Shelly, if you're willing to come back and share how you're doing in six months to a year, I would love to have you come back on and share what's going on, what you've learned through the process. So if you're willing to do that, I would love to talk to you again.

[B]

Yeah, definitely hope for that. Yeah.

[A]

Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your story and keep in touch.

[B]

Yeah, I will do. Thank you.

[A]

If you've already purchased a copy of my book Trauma Mama Husband Drama on Amazon, please circle back and give it a five star rating. A lot of women are searching for books to figure out what to do about their husband and rating. Trauma Mama will also help them find this podcast, which is free to everyone. And of course, your donations help keep this podcast going. Go to btr.org, scroll to the bottom and click on support the BTR podcast until next week. Stay safe out there.