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Betrayal Trauma Recovery
What Is A Therapeutic Disclosure? What You Need To Know If Your Husband Is An Addict
00:36:10
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- [00:00]
A
Hey, it's Anne.
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B
If you've listened to this podcast, you know I interview women who are dealing with their husband's lies, anger, or infidelity.
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A
I've interviewed over 200 women and counting.
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If you relate to anything you hear in this episode, we can help you today. I created our daily live group sessions.
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Because when I was going through it.
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No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't find the help I needed. We know exactly how to help women in this situation.
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A
The entire BTR team has been through it.
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So we know how to anticipate the issues you're likely to face. And when you discover your husband's lies.
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Or infidelity, no matter where you are in the world, we can help you immediately. Check out our group session schedule@btr.org group it's just me.
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B
Today. I'm going to be talking about therapeutic disclosures. When you discover that your husband is lying, that he's been using pornography or.
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A
Having affairs, or that he's been soliciting prostitutes, someone might tell you or you may think that he's a sex addict. And if you go to sex addiction therapy, there's a high likelihood that a sexual addiction therapist will have him do a therapeutic disclosure. So we're going to be talking about why I think therapeutic disclosures are very dangerous. And then you get to decide what.
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You want to do after listening to.
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A
What I have to say. So first of all, what is a therapeutic disclosure? A therapeutic disclosure is a process that involves the sex addict disclosing their full sexual history to his wife in a quote unquote, so called structured way with the guidance of a therapist. In theory, the purpose of a therapeutic disclosure is to provide the betrayed wife all the information she needs to make informed decisions about the relationship moving forward. Now, I want to talk about all the reasons why that doesn't make sense. So first of all, their sexual history does not include all the times they manipulated their wife over little things, big things, all the lies, all the emotional and psychological abuse, the sexual coercion, it does not address his abuse, which is the actual problem. If you take that to the next logical step, you might say, then I'm going to get him in an abuse problem program. Well, an abuse program is pretty much the exact same thing. It's in a couple setting where the wife is saying, hey, these are the things I need to see. This is what I want to know. There's really no difference in that. He can manipulate, he can drag it out, like he has a lot of control to exploit that situation. So abuse experts understand that anything therapeutic is going to make the abuse worse. Because men aren't abusive because of their childhood trauma or their shame or for any other reason other than they want to exploit people. I know a lot of people who have childhood trauma. I feel shame. I watch a lot of TV sometimes, or I might go for a walk, call my sister. You know, some people use model trains like, abuse is not the only option here. There are so many other options. Like, nothing's going to stop him from wanting to exploit the situation except for him wanting to stop. And if he wanted to stop, he wouldn't be like that in the first place. So abuse is a choice. The purpose of therapy is to uncover the underlying cause of a person's behavior. So in therapy, an abusive man and a manipulative, deceitful man will run the therapist and his wife in circles, giving both of them all sorts of reasons. And most of these reasons are just lies. And then these lies, quote, unquote reasons, take on a life of their own. So it's best to stay away from being involved in an abusive man's therapy or treatment or a program at all costs.
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B
But a therapist could tell you that a therapeutic disclosure is important in order to, quote, unquote, avoid trickle disclosures. And that sounds like a good idea. If a therapist is telling you we're going to do this so you can get the whole truth so he doesn't just give you a little information here and there. But what they won't tell you is this is just an abuser lying, disclosing bits of information in a tactical fashion to manipulate or distress you or drag things out.
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A
They know that this process of disclosing things at tactical times gives them the control. So they're going to prolong the process for as long as they can to maintain that control throughout that whole thing. She's still unsafe. She's unsafe at every point. Not realizing that she's being lied to and manipulated, staying in contact with his constant abuse, most often form of grooming. And because they're doing this, victims undergo an immense amount of trauma for that time now, even if they don't really realize it and seems like it's going well. So many women come to BTR and they share that, like six months after the disclosure or two years, then they realize what was really happening and they realized it was all lies and manipulation. And they are so traumatized that they spent that much time basically just in this fog with a therapist sort of enabling their continued abuse.
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B
Years ago, when I first started Podcasting I interviewed a therapist about disclosures.
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A
She disagrees with me. She thinks disclosures are great and she uses them in her practice.
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When I interviewed her, it was really.
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A
At the very beginning and so I didn't love disclosures, but I was willing to have an open mind. I posted the interview on my podcast and then pretty soon after removed it because I realized this is really problematic and I don't have any desire to hurt someone's reputation. My podcast isn't a gotcha podcast. I really appreciate everybody who has spent the time to come and be interviewed and sometimes I do disagree with people and because of the way the interview goes, I don't air that episode because I want to make sure that I'm putting out the best information that I feel good about.
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I also want to acknowledge that some.
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A
Of you may have actually gone through this process and it worked out great for you. If you feel that way, go to btr.org in the search bar type in what is a therapeutic disclosure. You'll find this episode and below you can comment back and forth and interact with our community there about your experience. If it worked for you, like I'm so glad that it did. I don't want to recommend it to anyone and I'll tell you the reasons why, but I also don't want you to feel bad if you did it and it worked out great for you. Everybody is different. But reading the transcript of this podcast from years ago that hasn't even been in circulation, right? I took it out of circulation years ago. There's so many important points that I really wanted to talk about. Now.
- [07:19]
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Part of that episode was that we sent out a call for questions about.
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Disclosures at that time, and women wrote in their questions.
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So here's a question that we received. One community member asked, shouldn't it be up to the wife to be able to know or ask anything that she needs to, even if it hurts her.
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A
And causes her more pain? Is pain really the enemy here?
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Isn't unknowingly being in an unsafe situation far more dangerous? So that was the first question. Now, this therapist said that she thought.
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It was up to the partner to.
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Decide the level of detail they wanted.
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In the disclosure, which is fascinating to me that this therapist assumed that this guy was going to somehow tell the truth or that she could get the level of information that she actually wanted. Like, he's super manipulative. So putting a woman in this position where you're giving her the impression that she can get information if he is a liar who Manipulates people is super scary.
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The woman who asked the question, she says isn't unknowingly being in an unsafe situation.
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Farmer Dangerous. Yes, 100%.
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But the disclosure itself is an unsafe situation.
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I'm going to talk about what to do instead of a disclosure at the end. So keep listening because I am going to give you an alternative.
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Then this therapist said that when she starts disclosures that and I'm going to do a quote here. She said, for me, when I'm leading disclosures or doing trainings about disclosures, I encourage partners to start with the least amount of details. You can ask more.
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You have a right to ask for more information.
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But let's be slow and careful that it's not too much information for your brain. Some of this information is going to.
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Be traumatic for you, end quote. Like, you know it's going to be really traumatic for you and so maybe you shouldn't find out. Like, that is insane. That is insane that a therapist is saying this. I can't believe I had this episode up for a while.
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This therapist said so sometimes people get caught up in the emotion and they want to know more and more. And that's fine if they want to know. But I always ask them, do you want to know? Is it going to be helpful in your healing?
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A
End quote. Like, why would not knowing the truth be helpful in any situation? Like, you can't heal without the truth because if you don't know what the truth is about the situation, then you can't make good choices. So why would anyone imply that it's okay to like not be aware of who your husband really is? Why would a therapist want to hide a man's true character from his wife?
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B
Then I asked the therapist, what about safety issues? Like isn't that the most important thing? And she was like, oh, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we got to think about safety.
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A
But that was not the first thing she said. And she didn't even mention it. Instead she was like, does she want to know the truth or does she want to heal? And when it came to safety, the.
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Only thing she mentioned was getting an STD test.
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And I thought, you're not going to mention emotional abuse, psychological abuse, grooming, the fact that the thing you're doing right now, her being involved with his therapy, his addiction recovery is counter indicated when it comes to abuse. And you are not talking about abuse.
- [10:48]
B
That's dangerous. So when I asked her this, this was her response. She said, I work with addicts and their partners when I'm working with an addict. And helping him prepare his disclosure. We're looking at all the categories of sexual behavior and sex addiction. He may not have behavior in all the categories, but I want him to go through an inventory of every category.
- [11:11]
A
And then she starts talking about, literally, the details of sexual acting out, like, vaginal intercourse or anal or oral. And she, like, starts, like, delineating these things. And I'm like, what about abuse? Like, she still isn't even saying, this man is abusive. He's manipulative. Like, how does, like, all the different ways that he had sex help her know that this is abuse?
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So then I ask her, what about other questions that aren't related to sexual behavior, like lying?
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So I keep trying to go back to this, and she said, that's a hard one. Because addicts have lied for so long, it's hard for them to go through.
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All the lies and correct all the lies in a disclosure. But isn't that the point of a disclosure, to find out the truth? You're just gonna hear me getting, like, more and more frustrated As I talk about this interview and the things she told me, because it just starts going.
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Around and around in circles.
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And I'm always trying, but she doesn't.
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Want to connect the dots. And so it got more and more frustrating as time went on.
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And then she says something that we.
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Absolutely do not recommend. And you'll know why at the end.
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She says, the way that we do.
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It is the addict prepares a disclosure document. So basically, you're giving this man a lot of time to, like, write down all of his manipulative reasons and craft this narrative any way he wants to, to paint himself any way he chooses. Usually they paint themselves where they're a victim in some way. They're a victim because their dad didn't love them enough, or they're a victim because their relationship with their mom is bad, or they're a victim because their dog died.
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So really, this disclosure is just putting her in the position to be lied to more. And then the therapist said, okay, so she's gonna get this, like, this paper.
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Of this narrative that he concocted.
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And that's when she gets to, like.
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Start asking him questions about it. But, like, if he's gonna continue to lie, do you see the problem? We're going in circles. And this is a direct quote.
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She said, sometimes a disclosure can be a time for lies. Sometimes there are so many lies, the addict will never be able to tell the truth about them all. And the question is, is the addict trying to live honestly?
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Has he Lied to her to protect her. What? No, no, that's not the reason.
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And then she says this, and this.
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Is what I just talked about.
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And usually the lying comes from a behavior much younger and from another time. It doesn't excuse it, but it does explain it. And then we can get to the root of it, end quote.
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A
Like, no, he just lied because he chose to, and he's continuing to lie because he chooses to.
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Then I say to this therapist, she doesn't really need to worry about why he's lying. The lying in and of self is.
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Dangerous, and she needs to be shielded from being lied to.
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All she needs to understand is the type of character that he has, that this was sexual coercion, emotional and psychological.
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Abuse, and he's continuing to do it.
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So I go back to the safety issue.
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You're still not getting it. Therapist. Like, are you going to get it in this interview?
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And she says, I think the disclosure is important because one person has knowledge.
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And information about the relationship that the other doesn't. And end quote.
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Absolutely.
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But do you think that someone who is hiding something on purpose, who has for years, who is now being forced to do it by a therapist, gonna be like, okay, I'm gonna do it now? Like, no, this is just an opportunity for more of it. So the therapist said, this is a rebalancing of the information. And I'm like, no, it's not. That is not what is happening. It is not a rebalancing of the information if they're going to continue to manipulate and lie through the whole process. So I never really got anywhere.
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We just talked in circles. And then here was the second question.
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We had from our community.
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Why is the couple involved in a disclosure?
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A
Isn't that couple therapy? And couple therapy is counterindicated when there's abuse?
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And the therapist was like, I would never want clients to go to couple.
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Therapy when there is abuse involved. It's all abuse. And you are working with the couple to do the disclosure. Like, can we put two and two together here? It's not necessarily couple therapy, but she is involved. She is talking about what she needs and want. She's telling the therapist things that the therapist is then going to tell him. There is some communication. This is definitely a endeavor. I don't ever hear of addicts doing disclosures completely by themselves without their wife being involved. That might be the only scenario where this might work. If he went in completely by himself, went to therapy all by himself, his wife was not involved. But then wouldn't he be like, I'm gonna tell the truth. So we wouldn't even need therapy.
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B
So then I asked her specifically, aren't you concerned about grooming that's taking place.
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A
During this disclosure process or during this time of therapy?
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That's not considered, quote, unquote, couple therapy.
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But basically is because the therapist is in communication with both people.
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Sometimes they'll meet together. And she said, I've never seen it from a grooming perspective. There are a few individuals that learn a little bit and then they use it against their partner. And at btr, we see that almost exclusively. So the fact that she thought it.
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Was just a few people, and we're like, this is on a, like, grand.
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Scale that this happens. So then I talk more about grooming and I talk about empathy scripts.
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So what I've seen with men's programs is that even abuse programs, the therapist may be like, okay, you don't know how to be empathetic, so I'm going to help you learn what to say. But because they're not genuinely empathetic, the therapist is like, well, I'm going to teach them, and they'll just have to act like it until they become it. That sounds okay in theory, but in real practice, if they are not empathetic.
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They are not safe.
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If you're in a room with someone who genuinely does not care about you at all, they're not concerned about your emotional safety, your physical safety. They don't care. They just want to exploit you, groom you. Them being able to groom you better with an empathy script is extremely dangerous because then they sound better, they are able to manipulate you more.
- [18:16]
B
So I brought this up and the therapist said, empathy scripts. Wow, I haven't heard of that before. Then she said, the way I look at it is if he comes home and is using the words that I gave him or taught him, I always say, this is a good thing. Now I'm assuming his intentions are true and his intentions are good because he's trying new skills and he doesn't have.
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His own language yet, end quote. So do you see the problem here? If he doesn't have the ability to.
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Be empathetic and he's mimicking it, she is assuming that he's trying to connect, but maybe he's not. Maybe he's like, okay, I've got to.
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Check all these boxes in order to be able to continue to exploit the situation.
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So then I asked her, how do you tell the difference between is he practicing a genuine new skill that he wants, or is he using this to groom and manipulate her. And she said, trust is built over.
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Time, which is true.
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And then she said, let's sit back.
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A
And watch, which I also agree with. So why not just sit back and watch from the beginning? Why teach him all the empathy scripts? Why have him write out a big thing about his disclosure and all the lies? Is it just because you want to have them spend a ton of money on therapy? Like, you can sit back and watch without all of that? In fact, instead of putting yourself in harm's way to be lied to, you can observe at a safe distance from the beginning and not spend any money to know if he's safe or not. All right.
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B
Another question from a community member. She asked, why do some therapists not include the state of the family finances in the full disclosure? This is a very important piece of.
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Information for a woman to have.
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The therapist says, that is something that I'll say, unless a partner brings it up, I will forget to ask that. It's not on the top of my brain, end quote. So if abuse is not on the top of the therapist's brain, do you see how they're not going to be identifying the abuse? And then the therapist says, I don't know that it's forgotten on purpose. I'm just not sure it's on the top of our to do list when we're assessing for sex addiction and lies, end quote. So does this therapist think that hiding money is not a lie? Because it is. Then I asked the therapist, are there any abuse issues that you have found are helpful for women to ask about in the disclosure? And she said, no, she didn't think so. And that she just saw it as a data exchange?
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A
Which confirms my theory that couple therapy, or therapy in this instance when it comes to abuse, is basically facilitating his transactionship, that he's like, I'm going to.
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Check all these boxes. I'm going to write out a big document where I can craft a narrative.
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That paints me in the role of a victim.
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And if I do these things, then.
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A
She'Ll let me back in the house.
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B
And the therapist is like, yep, check, check, check. Sounds right. Using the empathy scripts, we're good to go. But he actually is still that exploitative person, and he used that whole process as a transaction. So the fact that she's like, this is just a data exchange. She's. She even uses the word exchange was, like, super alarming. All right, another question from the community. The question from the community is, do you have any tips on how a spouse or former spouse who is not.
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Getting a disclosure moves forward.
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All she said basically was, it's very hard when you don't get the answers and you don't get the information that you need. And that's going to take a lot of time and coaching to come to grips with. She actually said coaching, which I thought was interesting, but she's not acknowledging that.
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A
Even with a disclosure process, you're still not going to get all the information. All you're going to get is a bunch of check boxes in a document that he's carefully crafted.
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B
That's it.
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A
That doesn't necessarily mean it's true, but.
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B
Prepping for a therapeutic disclosure sometimes takes six months, a year, two years of going to therapy once a week, a victim going to therapies often, maybe not once a week, but often. To be a part of this process while he takes all this time to manufacture the narrative that he's going to concoct, that seems just absolutely dangerous and.
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A waste of time and money.
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B
I do have some tips about it.
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A
And I will share those with you. Now, I want you to think about what you know. So rather than going with your abuser to addiction therapy, take one hour, get out a pen and paper and sit down at your kitchen table and list all of the things that you know. So for me, it would have been, I know he leaves the house at 10pm and I don't know where he goes. And he gets home at like one in the morning or two in the morning, and I don't know where he's been. I've never been able to get a straight answer. I know that. I know that he screams in my face. I know that he's punched a couple walls. I know that he doesn't make sense. I know that he has lied to me about this, this, this, and this. So write all the things that you know. I'm not sure why some therapists would take two years to try and literally, like, force a known pathological liar into telling the truth when they could just say, you already know. Let's just focus on what you know. Now, once you have everything that you know written down, compare that to what abuse is, and then you'll know, is he abusive? Observe over time to see what his character is. And that's all you need to know. When you know who he is because you can see him clearly, then you'll feel really confident in your choices. But if you can't see him clearly, it's hard to be confident about your choices. And women who are going through the therapeutic disclosure process, they're having a hard.
- [24:44]
B
Time because they're still exposed to all that manipulation. Here's the last question from our community members. She asked, how accurate are lie detector tests?
- [24:54]
A
There are many addicts who won't do.
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B
Them because they say they're not accurate. Do you use them in your practice? If so, can you debunk misunderstandings about their accuracy and effectiveness in re establishing trust in relationships?
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So I do know a lot of women who have done disclosures and they have had polygraphs and, and they've said that they were very helpful. So if they have been helpful to you, I'm glad that they worked for you.
- [25:21]
B
This therapist said she likes lolligraphs and lie detectors, so she uses them in her practice. She claims that they have an 80% rate of accuracy. And then she said, in my world.
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A
That'S better than not knowing. And I'm like, if it's only 80%.
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B
Accuracy, you still don't know. So it's not better than not knowing.
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A
Because it's the exact same thing. Again, the reason why I don't like polygraphs is still the focus is on trying to him to tell you something rather than having confidence in yourself and what you already know.
- [25:54]
B
Anytime we're trying to protect ourselves from his abuse by trying to get something from him or having someone else like get it through his brain, like clergy or a couple therapist or an addiction recovery specialist, that is how the abuser is going to manipulate you. The thing about polygraphs that makes me really nervous is they might tell the truth about the questions that the polygrapher is asking.
- [26:24]
A
But like there's so much that we wouldn't know. I'm a woman of faith. If you're not, you're welcome here. But just from my own faith perspective, I don't think that there is any human earthly ability to genuinely detect if someone is lying other than through observing them. I don't think there's a way to force them to tell the truth. I think God created this earth life with that scenario because it's part of our maybe earthly test. I think the only person that knows the truth is God. And so because of that, I would prefer to turn to God to pray, to feel the spirit, and then observe from a safe distance to know. That's a safer situation because it focuses on what you know and what God is telling you rather than relying on anything the abuser is saying or someone he is manipulating. Like a therapist or clergy is saying. This therapist, this is a direct quote.
- [27:30]
B
She says the thing about the polygraph, I really want to make sure folks understand is that it's not a statement of truth. I'm reading this word for word. She said, it's not a statement of truth. It is what he says is true. And then she gives a very confusing example that didn't make any sense. I couldn't make heads or tails of it. And then she says this, quote, the polygraph is only checking what he thinks to be true. It doesn't check his memory. It doesn't check if he's forgetting. It doesn't check if his memory is wrong. So that's an important piece that partners need to know before they go in. So if he says this is everything, and passes the polygraph, There are so many times when by virtue of exploring, investigating, or researching the data, she's referring to all the months that he spends crafting his narrative about apparently, quote, unquote, all the sexual addiction acting out. Okay, quoting her again now. So, quote, he goes into a polygraph and passes. And then the next night, the victim will say, wait, what about this? And the addict will say, oh, I forgot about that.
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Unquote.
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B
So she is saying, I use polygraphs, but a lot of the time the truth isn't included. And then she says, this. This is not them manipulating. This is them remembering one more thing, end quote. So they always have some excuse, apparently.
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A
To not tell the truth.
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B
I guess that just sounds like chaos and pain.
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A
So then I tell her a few.
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B
Examples of women who came to BTR and told us their disclosure horror stories. One of them, a man, went in to do a polygraph, and he passed.
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But the things that he said were true, she absolutely knew were not true. And the therapist said, well, he passed the polygraph, so he's great. I don't know why you don't believe him.
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B
It was just a nightmare for.
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A
And I talked about that.
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B
And the therapist said, sometimes the guy is not yet out of his layers of denial enough that he's seeing the.
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A
Full picture, end quote. I think it's more that he's manipulating on purpose, that he's really good at lying and manipulating. And then she said, but any disclosure is better than none, Basically saying that even if it's just all abuse and it's a mess and he's saying certain truths in a tactical fashion to manipulate the whole situation, that's better than not being abused. I disagree. I don't think any disclosure is better than none because the disclosure in and of itself is just abuse the whole time. I think no disclosure is better than any disclosure at all. So Then in the end, I ask.
- [30:24]
B
Her, is there anything else that you want to share about disclosures? And she says, I think your community.
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Is amazing and that you're doing a great job. That's nice of her to say that, even though now I'm, like, throwing her under the bus.
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And the reason why I didn't want.
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To do her voice is because I have no intention of harming anyone's reputation. But I do want to educate you about the dangers of disclosures.
- [30:47]
B
But what she wanted to say at the end was that she knows that women in our situation want to know the truth. They want to know exactly what happens. And then she said, and sometimes we need to break the disclosure into two pieces. Get the safety items taken care of immediately. That's like 10 minutes after she said that you have to observe and wait in order to know if they're safe. You can't get any safety items taken care of immediately.
- [31:17]
A
That's not how safety works. You have to observe from a safe distance for a long time to see what their actions are.
- [31:27]
B
So I don't even know what she means when she says, get the safety items taken care of immediately.
- [31:33]
A
That's just not a thing.
- [31:35]
B
She's not only contradicting herself, she's showing that she doesn't really understand how safety works. And then she says, if they're able to wait a little bit longer, it's going to take a lot of time, and if you're more patient, it's going to get better.
- [31:49]
A
So she's assuming that you can create safety immediately, but then you need to take a lot of time to see if he's safe. Almost in the same breath.
- [32:00]
B
That doesn't make sense to me. All right, now I'm going to talk about what you should do instead of.
- [32:06]
A
Asking for a therapeutic disclosure. I know that in your desire to have a therapeutic disclosure, or in your desire to have couple therapy or get clergy to help him, you are resisting the abuse like you're doing everything right. You're trying to get this to stop because you want a safe place for your family. So you're doing amazing. You're doing everything you're supposed to do. This is not your fault, and this is not your problem. This is the problem of most sexual addiction therapists who don't know anything about abuse, who are putting women in harm's way. That has nothing to do with you. Instead of doing a therapeutic disclosure, the number one thing is to educate yourself about abuse so that you can start seeing the truth of your situation. You might Find that he's not as abusive as you thought, you might find out that he's really abusive. But getting educated about abuse is going to help you, number two, determine your husband's true character from your own observations. That's why I created the Living Free Workshop. It takes you through step by step, how to observe from a safe distance. You could still be in your home. This doesn't necessarily mean that you have to move out to observe from a safe distance. It gives you strategies to do this whether you're in the home or even if you're divorced. They work no matter what so that you determine yourself if he has a safe character from what you know and you don't have to rely on him for any information whatsoever. And then the third is to get the right support from people who understand abuse. That could be a group, your local domestic violence shelter. It could be a therapist who really understands abuse, who does not know your husband, who's not going to talk to your husband, who's not going to have anything to do with him. It could be our online group sessions or scheduling an individual session with one of our coaches. But getting the right support so that you're protected. Because anyone who talks to an abuser, he'll be able to manipulate that person too. So that puts you in a dangerous situation because you're trying to see the truth. You're trying to see him for who he really is so you don't need any more people being manipulated by him to also manipulate you. To get more information about the Living Free workshop, go to btr.org living free.
- [34:26]
B
If you've already purchased a copy of my book Trauma Mama Husband Drama on.
- [34:30]
A
Amazon, please circle back and give it.
- [34:32]
B
A five star rating. A lot of women are searching for books to figure out what to do about their husband and rating. Trauma Mama will also help them find this podcast, which is free to everyone. And of course, your donations help keep this podcast going. Go to BTR.org, scroll to the bottom and click on Support the BTR Podcast.
- [34:52]
A
Until next week. Stay safe out there.