Ed Zitron (1:48)

It's all on smokeybear.com with other wildfire.

Garrison Davis (1:52)

Prevention tips, because only you can prevent wildfires. Brought to you by the USDA Forest.

Ed Zitron (1:57)

Service, your state forester, and the Ad Council. Wham, bam, thank you, ma'.

Garrison Davis (2:05)

Am.

Ed Zitron (2:05)

I'm Ed Zitron and this is Better Offline's coverage of the Consumer Electronics Show 2026. Better Offline we are now, as we have been all week, here in the Palazzo Hotel in beautiful Las Vegas, Nevada, bringing you yet another episode covering CES with a crazy assortment of guests from the tech industry. We've got an open bar, we've got tacos, a place to sit down for members of the media and friends, whether they join us on the microphone or not. It's Friday and we're on the first of our final two episode days and I mean that wasn't perfect, but you're just gonna like it. Then an epilogue tomorrow and good lord, do we have a wonderful show for you or we're beginning to. Very strong. The first contestants on the better offline challenge are the legendary activist, author and journalist Cory Doctorow who's joining me all today. You speak. Say hello, Corey.

Garrison Davis (3:02)

Oh, hello. I wasn't sure if I was meant to speak at this point. Hi, Ed.

Ed Zitron (3:06)

Natural. Natural. And of course returning champion listener favorite Sherlyn Lower Van Gantt.

Sherlyn Lowe (3:13)

Listener favorite. That's a strong introduction. I'm not sure I deserve it.

Ed Zitron (3:17)

It's completely true, actually. Another listener favorite, Michael Fisher, the YouTuber and CEO of Clicks Now.

Michael Fisher (3:24)

Not CEO, not CEO.

Ed Zitron (3:25)

Co founder. Co founder. My bad, buddy.

Michael Fisher (3:27)

It doesn't matter titles we don't do.

Ed Zitron (3:29)

Titles we don't do Fine. Holacracy like, like Tony Shad Las Vegas.

Michael Fisher (3:35)

Favorite RIP Brother to me as admiral.

Garrison Davis (3:40)

Rear admiral.

Michael Fisher (3:41)

Yeah, well, well, vice admiral these days.

Ed Zitron (3:45)

Court martialed by the clicks. So. All right. I've had a lot of people email in. So just to be clear, Michael's my friend. He's been on the show a lot. I've had him on in his capacity as a journalist. Still here as well for that. But you are the. You are the co founder of Clicks and you've got a little device with you.

Michael Fisher (4:00)

I do indeed. I have actually several devices.

Garrison Davis (4:02)

Oh, it's that thing. We added that thing. Thanks, man.

Michael Fisher (4:04)

I was so worried because I was like, oh no, Corey, I'm a Canadian.

Garrison Davis (4:07)

So blackberries are in my soul.

Maria Hinojosa (4:09)

Right.

Michael Fisher (4:09)

This is a physical keyboard for the iPhone and for Android phones which we.

Garrison Davis (4:13)

Did here two years ago.

Michael Fisher (4:15)

I have it on a Motorola RAZR now which is fun flips but the.

Ed Zitron (4:19)

I love the flip.

Michael Fisher (4:20)

I know you and I agree on the foldables.

Ed Zitron (4:22)

I just want an imessage on them. I don't care.

Sherlyn Lowe (4:24)

It's coming. I know it must be coming.

Ed Zitron (4:26)

Give me a foldable iPhone.

Sherlyn Lowe (4:27)

Everyone's saying the iPhone foldable is slot.

Ed Zitron (4:29)

I'm a nas. I'm a hog. Give me my foldable slot. No. So you've got this thing that connects the magsafe or the what have you charger.

Michael Fisher (4:37)

The thing is we made custom molded cases with the keyboard attached for several iPhones, several Android. And everyone was like this is great but I don't carry that phone. And we were like, yeah, this is great but it costs a lot of money to mold a Custom case with a keyboard for every phone. So we broke out the keyboard into a little custom puck called power keys.

Ed Zitron (4:54)

My arm.

Sherlyn Lowe (4:55)

And that makes everyone's grabbing out their iPhones. Now Cory's removing his phone from the keyboard.

Ed Zitron (5:01)

I want to try my iPhone.

Michael Fisher (5:02)

Just slap it right on the back there and it bonds via Bluetooth and gives you that. So, yeah, if you find a target.

Garrison Davis (5:09)

I think my region is.

Sherlyn Lowe (5:10)

Can I try it?

Michael Fisher (5:11)

Where's your target zone there?

Garrison Davis (5:13)

Yeah.

Michael Fisher (5:13)

Wait, are you. Is this.

Sherlyn Lowe (5:14)

Why are you giving me your phone?

Garrison Davis (5:15)

Oh, sorry.

Michael Fisher (5:16)

No, you do not have safe.

Ed Zitron (5:18)

Someone hand me a device for this audio podcast.

Michael Fisher (5:22)

Go ahead.

Ed Zitron (5:22)

But you also have the Android device. That's where it doesn't work for me. The actual Clix device, it does work. So we're just going to move on from that. But you've done like a dedicated Android thing.

Michael Fisher (5:36)

Yes, it's called the clicks communicator. It is actually a phone.

Garrison Davis (5:39)

Oh, yeah, look at that.

Michael Fisher (5:40)

Yes. It is a 4 inch screen with a big full QWERTY keyboard underneath it. People are calling it the new BlackBerry, but that is not.

Ed Zitron (5:45)

Of course, I'm going to send one to Jim. Jim who was the coach?

Garrison Davis (5:49)

Jim Cecil.

Tech Journalist (5:49)

Yeah, yeah.

Ed Zitron (5:50)

No, I was just talking to him yesterday. Yes.

Michael Fisher (5:53)

Were you really?

Ed Zitron (5:53)

Yes, well, certainly. Really? Yeah, yeah. Literally we had a phone call off yesterday's episode.

Michael Fisher (5:57)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ed Zitron (5:58)

All right.

Michael Fisher (5:58)

So the idea is it's. It's optimized for communication. It's optimized for people who carry two phones already and want one of them to be more focused on communication than content.

Ed Zitron (6:06)

So you got a nice big screen. Just describing it for the listeners. Nice big screen. It's decent way. I like you got this raised bit of the bit at the backs. Quite nice little, little, little stipple.

Michael Fisher (6:15)

The back plate here.

Ed Zitron (6:15)

And I will say thick too.

Michael Fisher (6:17)

Which is. Which is what we like. We like.

Sherlyn Lowe (6:18)

You like it's thick with two Cs, Y or 3. Yeah, we can go.

Ed Zitron (6:22)

I will also say the keyboard feels better than the original clicks.

Sherlyn Lowe (6:25)

Yeah. Can I try?

Michael Fisher (6:26)

We've increased the key size by 30%, if you can believe that. You ready for all those spectrum?

Ed Zitron (6:31)

No. And I will say this, like, I don't use the original clicks because like, weirdly, like the case didn't feel right. It's just a personal thing. And I have like weird little thumbs. Like they're not long enough for most gloves because I'm a monster.

Michael Fisher (6:42)

I understand.

Ed Zitron (6:42)

But these. This thing. I like this thing. Caleb from Kill the Computer, who was specifically asked about This, I like it. I think it's cool. So who's it aimed at though?

Michael Fisher (6:51)

People who carry two phones. So you ever see people walking around like me Captain two phones.

Tech Journalist (6:56)

Right.

Michael Fisher (6:56)

But you see people walking around with a pixel and an iPhone or two iPhones and neither one is optimized for. For the actual task that it's trying to do. So we're not trying to compete with a phone with a great camera and a big old display. We're trying to make a communications tool. So what I like about this though is it runs Android but we've, you know, added a custom launcher on top with the folks at Niagara. You ever use that one?

Ed Zitron (7:13)

Can you send it on? I want to play around.

Michael Fisher (7:15)

I cannot. That's a touch and feel sample. That's how early this thing is. We don't launch until later in the year.

Garrison Davis (7:19)

Yeah, ye.

Michael Fisher (7:20)

But like Niagara has this beautiful aesthetic list and it's not a. It's not an icon based os. It is a distraction.

Garrison Davis (7:26)

That's a nice little scroller too, isn't it?

Ed Zitron (7:27)

I like that because that's the thing I would. I'm a. I'm a little hog with my devices. I love my, my keyboards and my doodads and the like.

Michael Fisher (7:34)

Yes.

Ed Zitron (7:34)

And also there, there are times when I will use like a, like I have like old laptops that I'll use if I just want to focus on writing or if I. And I would love something that was just for like my iPad has like very stripped down notifications at times so that I can just focus on sitting on the couch or I'm playing like ball Expit or Rogue. Dead zone. Rogue. My two favorite games of last year and I just want to chat shit with a friend.

Michael Fisher (7:57)

Yes.

Ed Zitron (7:57)

Or like just send a silly name.

Michael Fisher (7:59)

A single purpose device. You want a purpose and it's kind.

Ed Zitron (8:02)

Of a luxury thing though it's not for everyone.

Michael Fisher (8:04)

No, absolutely not. And neither was the first clicks. Like that's the thing. We've always made products for a small segment of the market, but as long as 1 in 1000 small batch hardware. Exactly.

Engadget Host (8:12)

Yeah.

Michael Fisher (8:13)

But I'm pretty excited for Communicator because I was terrified of it. You know, you work on something for so long and you're not sure if it's good anymore. When it is out later in the year it's going to be second half.

Garrison Davis (8:21)

But.

Michael Fisher (8:22)

But late second half.

Garrison Davis (8:23)

My wife gave me an Olivetti Valentin.

Ed Zitron (8:26)

What is that?

Garrison Davis (8:26)

Manual typewriter classic 1967 in MOMA. Bright cherry red. Has an integrated case that it Slides out of. There's, you know, photos of like Twiggy carrying it through the Pan Am terminal at JFK at Idlewild. Beautiful machine. And I've been rehearsing my manual typewriter.

Maria Hinojosa (8:51)

Performance.

Ed Zitron (8:51)

Can I ask you a really stupid question?

Garrison Davis (8:53)

Yeah.

Ed Zitron (8:53)

What happens if you typo on a typewriter?

Sherlyn Lowe (8:55)

You can go backspace.

Garrison Davis (8:56)

You go backspace. You type an X over the typo character.

Sherlyn Lowe (8:59)

I had the typewriters where they sort of eraser.

Garrison Davis (9:03)

That's right in that. In the type. And it has the most beautiful ding when you reach the end of the line.

Sherlyn Lowe (9:11)

Oh, I never had the thing ones.

Garrison Davis (9:12)

It's got a red ribbon and a black ribbon. So it's got like a two, two side ribbon and you go up and down for it and then you have to. You have to get the key with a snap. It's not how hard you hit it, it's how crisply comes back up and then you get a nice clean impression with the keystroke. So that is a genuinely single purpose device. I'm really enjoying it. And it's meant to be a luggable. You can just schlep it around.

Ed Zitron (9:36)

Michael. I need to ask though, wasn't there a device called the Peak once?

Michael Fisher (9:40)

Yes, the Peak. Right. It was an email only, like BlackBerry esque device. I'm sorry, you could also use it for Twitter. No, no, no, no. I actually have one, Avi Green, but Greengart let me borrow his. I have to cover it on Mr. Mobile and my winphones were phones and here it is.

Ed Zitron (9:53)

Yeah, no, it's like a little, little screen. I like this. I like this because, like, look, you're not trying to pretend this is for everyone. You're not trying.

Michael Fisher (10:00)

Not at all. And yeah, no, you're not going to replace your pixel or iPhone with it. You're going to carry it alongside it or you're going to carry it instead of it on the weekends or the weekdays as the case may be.

Ed Zitron (10:07)

Could someone use it as their daily driver or is it kind of limited?

Michael Fisher (10:10)

No, it absolutely. It runs Android 16, it's 5G. It even has micro SD and a headphone jack. For all the people in my comments.

Garrison Davis (10:16)

Who are always like, how do you.

Michael Fisher (10:18)

Want to bring back those old features? So, yes, you could use it as your main. And we've heard from people who are like, what if I wanted that to be my primary phones? Like, you can.

Ed Zitron (10:24)

I think it's lovely. I think it's lovely that. No, because you've. You are. You and I have had some of the Deepest. Like, I love the technology stuff. It's cool. I love the phone. Oh, I love tablets and all this shit. And you actually made something that you wanted to use? Yeah, well.

Garrison Davis (10:37)

And it's actually got. It's got two cameras. So you can scan a QR code.

Michael Fisher (10:40)

Absolutely. That's the thing.

Garrison Davis (10:41)

You can take a picture and say, this is how you.

Michael Fisher (10:44)

Yes.

Garrison Davis (10:44)

Am I allowed to throw this away? Are these left? Is this good?

Ed Zitron (10:47)

Is this the final. Final weight of it?

Michael Fisher (10:50)

Close to final. Probably within about 10 grams.

Ed Zitron (10:52)

Only criticism I have is, what about the. The battery? What happens? Like, what kind of warranty? What kind of battery stuff?

Michael Fisher (10:58)

The battery is 4,000 milliamp hours. I did push for silicon Carbon. This is the last time I'll get super nerdy about this because I wanted more getting ready.

Ed Zitron (11:04)

This is my show.

Michael Fisher (11:05)

And I was like, no way we can get it. But it turns out we could afford it. It was great. The. In terms of the support, I mean, it's not. It's. The only thing we couldn't do is a removable battery, because that was kind.

Ed Zitron (11:14)

Of why I was getting it.

Garrison Davis (11:15)

What does it look like for a service depot to swap it?

Ed Zitron (11:17)

Yeah, yeah.

Michael Fisher (11:18)

That's a really good question.

Garrison Davis (11:19)

Can I take it to my guy on the corner?

Michael Fisher (11:21)

Probably not. I mean, I'm sure that the. Actually, you know what, just because of what I just said, that's probably not the case. Because Silicon Carbon is rare these days. Like, it's. It's so new, so I don't actually know. That's One of the 50 million questions I should have been prepared for.

Ed Zitron (11:34)

What's the clicks button doing?

Michael Fisher (11:35)

So that's a shortcut key. So on all of our products, you hit the clicks button and you hit a letter and you can do. You can call a friend. You can.

Ed Zitron (11:42)

I'm serious. Like, this has so much more. I'm not just saying this because you're my mate, because you know me well enough that I'd be like, I don't like it.

Michael Fisher (11:47)

I do.

Ed Zitron (11:48)

No, it's got the weight you've given. It actually gives the buttons the heft that the clicks case.

Garrison Davis (11:53)

I think you mean gravitas.

Ed Zitron (11:55)

No, not the gravitas. I mean like the physical. Because the other one, I'd feel it bend back with my tiny little knob end. Goblin fingers.

Michael Fisher (12:02)

Well, when you design the whole entire thing yourself, when you don't have to accommodate for a phone in a case you're building for another product, you can kind of control that. That's fun. Also, you'll like This, I think the keyboard is capacitive, so when you swipe your thumb over it, you can swipe.

Sherlyn Lowe (12:15)

Over, like, some of your cases.

Tech Journalist (12:16)

Right.

Ed Zitron (12:17)

Wait, so you can do the swipe stuff over the physical case?

Michael Fisher (12:19)

Correct.

Garrison Davis (12:19)

Fuck me.

Ed Zitron (12:20)

That's actually very cool.

Sherlyn Lowe (12:21)

The BlackBerry key one had that.

Michael Fisher (12:23)

Yes, absolutely.

Garrison Davis (12:24)

Is that right?

Ed Zitron (12:25)

I'm actually going to send this to Jim right now.

Michael Fisher (12:28)

I believe we've talked to him about it. Because a lot of our alumni or a lot of our employees are BlackBerry alumni.

Garrison Davis (12:34)

Are they Canadians, though?

Michael Fisher (12:35)

Yes.

Garrison Davis (12:35)

Don't trust Canadians. Speaking as a Canadian, don't trust Canadians.

Michael Fisher (12:39)

Wait a minute. But y' all are so nice.

Garrison Davis (12:40)

No, it's just an act.

Michael Fisher (12:43)

It's like the south here.

Garrison Davis (12:44)

That's right.

Ed Zitron (12:45)

Bless your heart.

Sherlyn Lowe (12:46)

A question as a. As a longtime friend of Michael Fisher as well. So how rich are you now?

Michael Fisher (12:53)

Well, I stayed at Planet Hollywood, if that tells you.

Sherlyn Lowe (12:55)

Oh, that does tell me a lot. I stayed at the Residence Inn, so if that tells you what we're doing.

Ed Zitron (12:59)

Michael, professional question. Are you here in capacity as the Click's co founder or are you covering for Mr.

Michael Fisher (13:06)

Mobile?

Ed Zitron (13:07)

Yes.

Michael Fisher (13:07)

Yes is the answer.

Garrison Davis (13:08)

So both.

Michael Fisher (13:08)

Yeah. I have to split the time evenly. Must be.

Garrison Davis (13:11)

That's what the quiff is for. It's for a second hat.

Michael Fisher (13:13)

Absolutely, yeah.

Garrison Davis (13:15)

One here. One here for being beautiful.

Michael Fisher (13:16)

You have to apply so much hairspray because you're going to put. Actually, that's true. I was doing a John Deere spot because they're my sponsor on this one, and I had to put on a John Deere hat.

Ed Zitron (13:25)

You got to be on the big tractor.

Michael Fisher (13:27)

And I was. In fact, I went to visit the combine. Yes.

Ed Zitron (13:29)

Drive it away. No, but it's good.

Michael Fisher (13:31)

It satisfies my need for novelty. I think you can relate to this.

Ed Zitron (13:34)

You got some stuff.

Michael Fisher (13:35)

No, one thing for 10 minutes. It's too long. I got to go. Got to go do something else.

Ed Zitron (13:38)

No, the only thing I can do consistently is podcast for two hours. That's the only thing. Anything else? That I'm just, like, lost.

Garrison Davis (13:44)

You just. Just give them throat. Like you're a man who turns throat lozenges into podcasts.

Ed Zitron (13:48)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. What, the skeleton meme. Yeah, the skeleton squat meme. But how have you felt about the show, Michael? What? Have you. You seen anything else other than your own thing that you like?

Michael Fisher (13:58)

I have to tell you, I. So I cannot stand everything about the Las Vegas Strip. And CES is a very training show, as we all know. However, this particular one was so worth coming to based on the Stuff that was shown for me. I got a new foldable phone out of Motorola that was incredible.

Sherlyn Lowe (14:17)

When you say you got, what you mean?

Michael Fisher (14:18)

No, they made it specifically for me.

Sherlyn Lowe (14:20)

Oh, I see. No, no, Mr. Fisher edition.

Michael Fisher (14:23)

Yeah, exactly. There was the new pebble or the, you know, the new.

Tech Journalist (14:27)

Old Pebble.

Maria Hinojosa (14:28)

Yes.

Sherlyn Lowe (14:28)

See, that's what I was going to talk about after this call.

Michael Fisher (14:30)

Oh my God.

Sherlyn Lowe (14:30)

Yes.

Michael Fisher (14:31)

And then as I was wander between those two things, I found, you know, there's something called a fidget gadget. Have you all seen this? It's a little metal cube with like six buttons on it and Casio smartwatch or a Casio watch display.

Ed Zitron (14:45)

So a fidget.

Michael Fisher (14:47)

And it's a little fidget toy and you can run. You know, it's like Arkanoid is like developer tools. It's open source. You can.

Garrison Davis (14:52)

Oh, no way. An open source fidget thing, but all mechanical. So this is.

Ed Zitron (14:57)

This is new.

Michael Fisher (14:57)

This is by one guy making them in his garage in Ypsilanti. It's like exactly why I used to love coming to ces.

Ed Zitron (15:03)

You know, it's this little stuff that I hear that I'm like, I wish I'd have seen that because that would have made my day.

Maria Hinojosa (15:08)

Yes.

Ed Zitron (15:09)

So it's just for dicking around with.

Michael Fisher (15:10)

Exactly.

Ed Zitron (15:11)

You know, what toys are. If it's a toy, it's a toy.

Michael Fisher (15:13)

And that's it.

Ed Zitron (15:14)

Right?

Michael Fisher (15:14)

The guy's not saying. It's like, well, this is going to be, I hope to usher in a new era for, you know, intentional. It's like, no, I made a toy. It feels good. It's fun to click and I don't know what you can do with it, but find out.

Ed Zitron (15:25)

Yeah, you could do all sorts of stuff. That's fun.

Michael Fisher (15:27)

It's awesome.

Ed Zitron (15:28)

Is it? So you. But you have a good. Chilling as well. You have a good history with CES as well. Like you've been here a lot.

Engadget Host (15:33)

Yeah.

Ed Zitron (15:34)

This one feels weird to me. It's felt like a very peculiar show to me. Like, it feels like it's missing something.

Sherlyn Lowe (15:40)

What do you think is missing?

Michael Fisher (15:42)

I don't know.

Ed Zitron (15:42)

That's why I'm asking. Like, it's like. It feels like, like bits have been hollowed out.

Michael Fisher (15:47)

I think there's a reason for that. I feel like if people were planning for their CES in the first half of the year, they were probably going to lean on AI all over again. And I feel like there's been a very visible retraction from that, especially in.

Ed Zitron (15:59)

The show, other than the people who are here. Well, no, I know, but even the chef's branding.

Michael Fisher (16:04)

Yeah. It's not themed.

Garrison Davis (16:05)

So your thesis is that there would have been twice as much dumb AI if it wasn't for the backlash. That it's just the people who are just so like, balls out, clanker slopper.

Michael Fisher (16:16)

Yep.

Sherlyn Lowe (16:18)

I have a different theory as to why something feels missing. I mean, I think there's a lot missing. I think one thing that's really missing is the car side of things. We had the Fila, but then the, the, you know, the expiry or the doing away with the federal tax credit really dampened a lot of the mood around EVs this past year. So 2025. And so Honda was like, we're not coming to CES this year. And I think that's kind of set the tone leading into Cesar. Interesting as well. I mean, like, there's a lot of things, not just cars, but that's probably like our transport sort of area. We were like assigning people to kind of pay attention to on our team. They were just like, there was nothing.

Ed Zitron (16:54)

Wow. So strange.

Michael Fisher (16:56)

It is.

Garrison Davis (16:56)

Do we think that there's exhibitors who are like, I don't want to get kidnapped by ice.

Sherlyn Lowe (17:00)

Yeah.

Ed Zitron (17:00)

I. To wonder if they were terrified. Well, tariff related is kind of a cop out.

Garrison Davis (17:03)

But like immigration, lots of events that I'm involved with are saying our numbers are way down. And that's attendee numbers.

Sherlyn Lowe (17:11)

Right, right.

Garrison Davis (17:11)

And they're just. People don't want to come anymore. Events are now saying like, you know, a lot of New York City events are like, should we move to Toronto? New Yorkers won't find it that hard to get there. And then blah, blah, blah. Lovely. Yeah, quite like as. As a Torontonian New York run by the Swiss.

Sherlyn Lowe (17:26)

It's also, it's also doesn't help that there's like a lot going on outside of Cesar.

Maria Hinojosa (17:31)

Yeah.

Sherlyn Lowe (17:31)

At the same time. So like anyone who had those fears were not wrong to be a little bit concerned. And as someone who's like herself an immigrant, like with very good legal visa status.

Ed Zitron (17:43)

Right there with you.

Sherlyn Lowe (17:44)

Yeah, exactly. I, I was so afraid to travel even domestically for a while there. Now it's like I've done a few international trips. I'm not as concerned.

Ed Zitron (17:53)

Oh, I went through. I had to go to Toronto last year and I was like straight up, the whole.

Tech Journalist (17:58)

Scared, right?

Ed Zitron (17:58)

No, every moment in the airport. And then I remembered you cleared immigration in Toronto, which is.

Sherlyn Lowe (18:03)

Yes, exactly. I flew through Dublin. It's like.

Tech Journalist (18:05)

Yeah.

Ed Zitron (18:05)

Oh, yeah. It's. It's grim. And it's also like that. The stuff that has made it, it feels. And I say this as a CES veteran and someone's gonna say the stolen ballot.

Maria Hinojosa (18:15)

But.

Ed Zitron (18:17)

Even by CES standards, this feels like a bullshit year. It feels like worse than the 2014, 2015 Indiegogo Kickstarter boom, where it was like, it's a 3D print. You just click the button and a burger come out. Those ones I almost found folksy cause they were like a straight up snake oil salesman. Just like, ah, come here, check my food. Now it's just like 97 different GPT wrappers. And it's sad. I want my doodads. I want my gizmos.

Michael Fisher (18:44)

It's funny because I've seen more gizmos and doodads here this year than I have.

Ed Zitron (18:47)

Tell me if they have.

Garrison Davis (18:48)

Seriously.

Michael Fisher (18:48)

So besides Fidget Gadget and Pebble, which I surely.

Ed Zitron (18:51)

Oh, we've talked about Pebble a lot.

Michael Fisher (18:54)

Besides those, we have this sort of evolved version of Fidget Gadget, which I checked out on a whim. Someone said to me while I was demoing clicks to them, like, have you seen. Have you seen Lego? Have you seen Smart?

Sherlyn Lowe (19:05)

Oh, right, right. So must go.

Ed Zitron (19:07)

I just, I. I feel, I think.

Garrison Davis (19:08)

Like that's just going to be mountains of E waste. And also, isn't the whole point of Lego. Thank you, thank you, thank you toy that you just.

Ed Zitron (19:15)

Oh, wow. A way to make you need a Lego place.

Garrison Davis (19:18)

Instead of going, vroom, vroom. I have a machine that does the vrooming for me.

Ed Zitron (19:22)

I just can't.

Michael Fisher (19:23)

Okay.

Garrison Davis (19:23)

And.

Michael Fisher (19:23)

But if I had not sat through the entire hour long demo, I would have felt exactly the same way I went in. I'm like, listen, this'll be filler for my video. I'll just get some footage. It'll be fun. It'll be a break between phones. It'll be great. And then they demonstrated literally every use case I've ever seen a person think about in terms of, like, how do children play? How did I used to play? I used to move the machines like this and then it reacts and then you touch the brick to the other thing and it knows what the color is. And it's like, it's not only smart, but it's like, smart in a way that a kid will instantly understand and instantly appreciate. The E waste thing is the only thing that I was like, oh, man, that's gonna be annoying. But in of evolving the play experience.

Ed Zitron (20:04)

I actually got a pushback.

Michael Fisher (20:05)

Please.

Ed Zitron (20:06)

I Don't think LEGO needs to evolve the play experience. I think the whole point of LEGO is imagination and I think playing with it and going now, vroom, vroom. And building deranged things and having things in your head. I. But I unders. To be clear, I understand what they're doing. I'm surprised they haven't done it quicker. I'm. I'm sure they haven't.

Michael Fisher (20:23)

Yeah, I asked, I was like, guys, how long have you been involving this? Like eight years. Like from, from start to finish. But it shows, it shows in the product, I'm telling you.

Garrison Davis (20:30)

And technologically I think it is very interest to have location aware blogs.

Ed Zitron (20:34)

Yes.

Garrison Davis (20:35)

So Bruce Sterling wrote an incredible novel called Distraction that everyone should read because it's about fucked up computer mediated elections.

Ed Zitron (20:42)

Nice.

Garrison Davis (20:42)

And it is one of the most prescient books you will read. And in it there are these avant garde architects who put a slap bracelet around a brick and it starts saying, I am a cornerstone. Take me one step to the left. Put me down. I'm one degree off level. I am now level. Please add mortar and a bunch of unskilled people can put up a building in a day. I ripped this off from my novel Walk Away. And that kind of location awareness. Super interesting and cool. And there are lots of times in my life where I would have loved to have had this. If, if you told me that IKEA has figured out a way to use lowcost electronics to tell you when you've got the right two pieces.

Sherlyn Lowe (21:18)

Right. How to build the, the furniture.

Maria Hinojosa (21:20)

Yeah.

Michael Fisher (21:20)

Oh, you are creating a world I want to inhabit.

Garrison Davis (21:23)

But like as a, as a child playing imaginatively with construction toys, I, I don't think my play experience would have been enhanced by having some of the things that happen in my imagination happen with electronics. Instead, I'd rather give that person an Arduino.

Ed Zitron (21:40)

So the E waste is fair enough.

Michael Fisher (21:41)

I think it's a good Arduino.

Ed Zitron (21:42)

There is actually a solution, which is the good news is that the chip fits inside a regular. Like it is still a regular LEGO brick. So you are still able to use it like a LEGO brick.

Garrison Davis (21:52)

But is it, but is the like. So when you throw this away, is it going to be a mortal E waste or just a mortal plastic waste?

Ed Zitron (21:59)

That's the thing. I actually truly don't know.

Garrison Davis (22:01)

Is it going to be leeching, you know, heavy metals into the water table or just turning into microplastics? But I mean, do people throw away Legos? You know, that's kind of my throwaway broken robotic lego.

Ed Zitron (22:11)

Yeah, but the thing is. But even then.

Michael Fisher (22:13)

Yeah, but it's still a brick, right?

Ed Zitron (22:14)

You're right, though.

Michael Fisher (22:15)

I don't know.

Sherlyn Lowe (22:16)

My take on the LEGO thing is I used to be on the Ed side of it, and I then read a lot of our coverage and was like, oh, okay, that makes way more sense. So I came closer to the Fisher side of it, and I'm just like, look, if you don't like it, you. You can still not buy it.

Michael Fisher (22:30)

Sure.

Sherlyn Lowe (22:31)

And you can still have the same LEGO experience you were having before.

Garrison Davis (22:34)

Sure, sure.

Sherlyn Lowe (22:35)

So this is for the people who I will.

Ed Zitron (22:36)

I will also give LEGO some real credit in that despite the fact that the entire LEGO economy has been inflated by adult babies who buy children's toys. I'm not talking about, by the way, like, the Taj Mahal. Those are obviously for adults. I'm talking about, like, I don't know, as a father. The Spider man sets that are now inflated by 30% because, you losers, you can't leave them alone for actual children. Jesus Christ. I will say lego's app stuff is really good. You can just type in the LEGO thing and you can sit there and kind of.

Michael Fisher (23:06)

Their smartphone app.

Maria Hinojosa (23:07)

Yeah.

Ed Zitron (23:08)

You can type in the number of the set and you can rotate around it. And it's useful, though they still do this insane thing where they don't be able. They make it really difficult to tell between, like, black, dark gray, and gray. Nevertheless, I give them real credit because it's like, it's an app, but it's not an app for, like, selling me more lego. It's. Hey, the instructions are limited because they're paper.

Maria Hinojosa (23:29)

Yeah.

Ed Zitron (23:30)

We found a way to get beyond that. So I'm willing to give them a bit of the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Michael Fisher (23:35)

What I will say is you just use it.

Sherlyn Lowe (23:36)

You don't need an app for that.

Garrison Davis (23:37)

Yeah, buy.

Michael Fisher (23:38)

Buy a set of them, Use them, and then judge them. Because that is. I was in the. Again, I was in the exact same boat as you guys. And then. Then I saw the demo and I was. I was like, God, every part of.

Ed Zitron (23:49)

This is well thought.

Garrison Davis (23:50)

I want to pop the stack one layer up, because it occurs to me there was a thing I wanted to say about the fidget toys. Okay. So the fidget toy sounds amazing. If that is your thing. If you're excited by this, there's a sculptor called Chris Bathgate who's a machinist who makes beautiful kinetic fidget toys that fit in your pocket.

Michael Fisher (24:06)

Really?

Garrison Davis (24:07)

And they come in runs of like 100 to 200. He hand machines each one of them. His sculptures are gorgeous. His static sculptures are amazing. But his kinetic sculptures, the pocket sized ones are insanely good. So Chris Bathgate, I'm gonna. And he's written a.

Sherlyn Lowe (24:25)

If only you had an AI ring to take a note with.

Michael Fisher (24:27)

Yeah, if only I could press a button.

Garrison Davis (24:29)

So I published a book about them.

Ed Zitron (24:31)

I just sent a message to Corey to make sure that's in the episode notes. And I'm about to send a text to Michael right now.

Michael Fisher (24:37)

Sounds good. While you're doing that, I'm gonna fidget with my own.

Ed Zitron (24:40)

Send me the fidget slider. No, I already typed it saying he's a wonderful broadcaster and I hope to have him on again. As sending me the link to that. This is a. This is an emotionally on this show. But you see anything? Do you see anything else fun? Because I'm genuinely like, I wanted. Everyone's like, ed. It's actually. No one's being like. Everyone's like, yeah, fuck ces. Okay, well, right, settle down, Settle down, everyone. That's my job. I'm the one who gets too angry.

Michael Fisher (25:04)

I don't like doing this because it is. I don't like to cross the streams between sponsored content and not. But I will say that something was genuinely cool that is in a sea of technology that is conceptual or maybe never come to market or has no value. One of the John Deere things I was paid to promote was an automated road paver. I learned about paving for like a half hour.

Ed Zitron (25:28)

And I will also say this makes.

Michael Fisher (25:30)

It possible for people to. For fewer people to do this job and for fewer skilled people to be required to do this job.

Ed Zitron (25:36)

Yeah, but that's also less lay.

Michael Fisher (25:38)

Oh, it's so scary, though. Look, here's the thing. The. The fact that this solves a problem is my least favorite part of it. And the problem is no construction workers can find enough labor.

Ed Zitron (25:49)

I mean, you could also hire more people.

Michael Fisher (25:51)

Well, no, I know this is what I was saying, but apparently that was the starting point. So I'm watching this robot thing do its thing like hot asphalt and pouring stuff. I'm like, yeah, this is what I want. I want to be dirty jobs. This is why I got into it.

Ed Zitron (26:02)

To go see some cool stuff.

Garrison Davis (26:04)

Go ahead.

Ed Zitron (26:04)

Yeah. I mean, I talk to a microphone. So I see a job like that. I'm like, never take that job from those people.

Michael Fisher (26:09)

Well, I agree, but I mean, that's the thing. There's not enough of those people that's the thing.

Ed Zitron (26:14)

Train them. But no, I get your point. And I'll also be clear. Michael Fisher is one of the, one of the fewer people who's more anxious than I am about any kind of thing like this. So Michael is like squirming here when it comes to like mentioning a sponsor. Do not think that he's doing this with joy.

Michael Fisher (26:27)

He actually didn't even notice that. Yeah, you're right.

Ed Zitron (26:29)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (26:29)

I mean, my concern with John Deere and I don't want to blow up your concern with John Deere, is there? Yeah, they're. They're a rapacious monopolist and they have led the war against repair. And they use the fact that it's illegal to bypass an access control. This is this law, section 121 of the Digital Millennium Copyright act that establishes a felony punishable by a five year prison sentence and a $500,000 fine for tampering with an access control to make it illegal for farmers to fix their tractors. And Ed, you know you're a Briton. Did you ever go to Beamish outside of Norfolk? Outside of Newcastle, rather. It's the largest open air museum in Europe. We would call it pioneer village here, except it's not pioneers, it's oldie timey English people and they have transported Georgian coal town with a colliery, Victorian high street, all kinds of weird old vehicles. And there's a farmhouse on a Roman foundation, and on the Roman foundation there is a forge because farmers have fixed their own farming implements since fucking Roman times. Enter John Deere saying, no, no, we have declared the end of history. Farmers no longer fix their farm implements. That's our job.

Michael Fisher (27:42)

No, it's. No, it's my fault. You know, here's the thing. This, this entire debate played out in my comments. Every single time I covered John Deere organically. And I got so fucking tired of it that I was like, I will never cover this brand again. Because I'm tired of getting in the middle of, tired of having this conversation and like go being the mediator between them and things.

Sherlyn Lowe (28:00)

You don't have to be the mediator.

Michael Fisher (28:02)

And I don't cover them organically. Now they, now they're my sponsor.

Ed Zitron (28:06)

I am gonna, I'm gonna aggressively segue away from this because I don't want.

Michael Fisher (28:10)

That's a good idea.

Ed Zitron (28:11)

Yeah. But I wanna get to the final thing, which is can I make.

Michael Fisher (28:13)

No, please, can I. Cause I wanna build on one thing you said that I find fascinating. The Roman Foundation. The thing that's been unchanged forever as we talk about yet another show where people are like, what's the next smartphone? What's the replacement for the smartphone? All this stuff. I had a wonderful moment at Mystic Seaport in Connecticut. Have you been here?

Maria Hinojosa (28:31)

No.

Michael Fisher (28:32)

It has a lovely maritime history Muse wander. And you can see all kinds of things. And there's a pocket watch case because of course there is.

Garrison Davis (28:41)

Sure.

Michael Fisher (28:41)

And I saw one that was really beautiful. And I asked the curator, I'm like, how, what is this from? Perhaps 19, 1905. And he's like, 1789. And I said, wait, what? And then I kind of looked at the history. I'm like, this form factor did not change meaningfully for 200 years. We figured something out. It was great. And then we kept it around until somebody figured out how to strap it onto a wrist.

Maria Hinojosa (29:02)

Right.

Michael Fisher (29:02)

That is how I feel about the smartphone these days. I'm like, look, there will be augmented things in the personal area network. There will be more accessories for them. But we are still going to carry these boxes.

Ed Zitron (29:11)

This is the principal struggle of CES right now, though. It's all people trying to be like, what if you had a smart glasses and it could do this? And then you're like, well, as a human being, this is not how I experience life. And they're like, shit, you're right. Nobody actually uses. But what if you changed your entire existence? So you had a weird grainy green thing that could sometimes be correct, which requires an Internet connection. And the smart glasses stuff is really the smart. I'm auto translation or write down what you're saying. You translate your business trip and you just slop me a stick me gun to my head. But it's just, I'm almost really happy to hear about, oh, I got thinner and lighter laptops with longer batteries. Brilliant. Brilliant. But it almost feels like we're reaching a point where everyone's just saying we're out of interface. We don't have a new one. To your point about that, what, that pocket watch case?

Michael Fisher (30:05)

Right.

Garrison Davis (30:05)

Do you know what I would love would be this huge design trend. From now on, we're putting black text on white backgrounds or sometimes white text on black backgrounds. And we fired all the 22 year old designers who put 10% gray on white backgrounds. And we've sent them north for re education where they are forced to endure long struggle sessions about things they've done to people with poor low contrast vision.

Ed Zitron (30:31)

Yeah, I just think liquid glass. Liquid glass. Liquid ass is truly. And I am like an Apple pay pig at this point. I have tolerated many an insult from this company, including the Vision Pro. And I gotta be honest, there is one thing that bothers me the most about this and it's for some reason on one of the windows there's just like a blob in like one of the. There's just like a weird reflective thing that looks like it's hard to see, but it looks like an error in the LED panel in my phone because.

Tech Journalist (31:05)

Of how you're talking about the weird sort of reflective.

Ed Zitron (31:09)

It's got this weird reflective thing in.

Michael Fisher (31:11)

The frame on it.

Ed Zitron (31:12)

If you worked on liquid glass, were you forced to. Were you forced to do this?

Sherlyn Lowe (31:16)

They do talk about it as part of the ui that sort of the way you move your phone and then how it me reminds reflects light. It's supposed to be that way.

Ed Zitron (31:23)

I don't want that.

Sherlyn Lowe (31:24)

I want my phone. I think you can turn it off.

Ed Zitron (31:26)

I. Liquid glass.

Sherlyn Lowe (31:28)

Not all.

Ed Zitron (31:29)

I would love to. I would love to go back to iOS 8 or something. Like give me the phone normal.

Garrison Davis (31:33)

I want the. I want the phone UI that actually like puts fake scratches on your screen.

Michael Fisher (31:38)

You're like.

Garrison Davis (31:40)

Or like fake.

Ed Zitron (31:43)

Now I will say and we could wrap this in a bow. It's why I kind of like the clicks communicator, because it's just a thing.

Garrison Davis (31:49)

Nice callback.

Ed Zitron (31:50)

Yeah, flawless. No, and I say this is someone who likes. If you don't like it, I don't give a shit if you buy it or not. Sorry, this just.

Tech Journalist (31:56)

That's.

Ed Zitron (31:56)

That's not my job. But I like it because it's like what do I want from a device that takes people thingy to use? Message app, talk place, look at website thingy like you do the thing on.

Michael Fisher (32:07)

It's full of very important features, but just a handful of them. I didn't think that I'd ever got on board the. And this is the web browser on it? Oh yeah. I mean it's Android 16. You can run whatever you want on it, but it's a matter of intention.

Ed Zitron (32:19)

Oh, sorry, what were you saying?

Michael Fisher (32:20)

I never thought I'd get on board the digital detox train or anything like that. And that's not what communicator is for, to be clear. But just personally, until I use the light phone for two weeks this past.

Ed Zitron (32:29)

Summer, you were real one. Because when you did the light phone thing, you actually did it, you turned off everything.

Michael Fisher (32:35)

Yes.

Ed Zitron (32:36)

Amazing.

Michael Fisher (32:36)

And I. I wish I could have survived in that world because it turned out in order to live that way, doing what we. What a lot of us do I had to carry an iPad for the sessions that invariably required me to be online for a second or a laptop. And then I was like, damn it, I can't live this life. But what stuck with me were two or three lessons that lived past July. And I was like, every time I pull up my phone now, I'm like, am I doing this for a purpose or am I doing this because I'm bored? Every time I pull out my phone to check notification, I'm able to better resist the bypass of the doordash. Isn't it time to order a pizza? It's 3pm all the shitty notifications that you get, all the time, you leave notifications on. No, I turn them off. And then I miss my doordash deliveries.

Maria Hinojosa (33:20)

I.

Michael Fisher (33:20)

No, I do this horrible seesaw.

Ed Zitron (33:23)

I aggressively please those. But, Michael, it's so good having you. As we wrap up this half an hour. Thanks. I just want to say the listeners want you back, and I will have you back. But also, you have made me look at phones differently.

Michael Fisher (33:33)

And I.

Ed Zitron (33:33)

And I put aside the clicks communicator. I think you have the right way of looking at it where it's like, why am I using this device?

Michael Fisher (33:39)

Thank you.

Ed Zitron (33:39)

And why am I doing this? What is this for now, I. I am built different in the sense that I am really. Like, I was mentioning yesterday, like, like the infinite feeds don't work on me. They give me anxiety. Like, I. I get to the. I'm like, where's the end? Where's the end? I want to finish reading this. Oh, I can't finish. No, no, I. No. But it's the opposite. Most people like, oh, I'll keep looking.

Tech Journalist (33:58)

I'm like, no, you want to be done.

Sherlyn Lowe (34:00)

You want to be.

Ed Zitron (34:00)

And I'm just like, fine, you want to do. And the moment I feel anything being done to me, uhhuh. I, like, reject it angrily.

Michael Fisher (34:07)

Sure.

Garrison Davis (34:08)

I just watched this happen on the.

Michael Fisher (34:09)

Train with a contrarian impulse, though.

Ed Zitron (34:11)

No, no, it's. No, it's pure autism. It's just like my brain just, like, doesn't want to do anything other than what it insists on doing, which is a Wikipedia or like a very long conversation about one specific thing, which is why we are here on Better Offline. So, Michael, thank you so much for joining us.

Michael Fisher (34:28)

Thank you, Ed.

Ed Zitron (34:28)

We will bring you back sooner than this.

Michael Fisher (34:31)

I would love that.

Ed Zitron (34:32)

And I'm looking forward to the clicks. I might actually pick one up, put a link to stuff. You can have a look at it, judge your own judgment. That's not a phrase. We now move to an ad break for something that I either say you should buy or listen to. Yeah, and iheartradio said, no, actually, I can't say that. So we're just gonna pretend I never said that.

Maria Hinojosa (34:57)

Run a business and not thinking about podcasting. Think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ad supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only iHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business? Think iHeart streaming radio and podcasting. Call 844-844-IHeart to get started. That's 844-844-IHEART. Hi, I'm Danny Shapiro, host of the.

Sherlyn Lowe (35:29)

Hit podcast Family Secrets.

Ed Zitron (35:31)

We were in the car like a rolling stone came on and he said, there's a line in there about your mother. And I said, what? What I would do if I didn't.

Tech Journalist (35:40)

Feel like I was being accepted is.

Ed Zitron (35:42)

Choose an identity that other people can't have.

Sherlyn Lowe (35:44)

I knew something had happened to me.

Maria Hinojosa (35:46)

In the middle of the night, but.

Sherlyn Lowe (35:48)

I couldn't hold on to what had happened. These are just a few of the.

Maria Hinojosa (35:52)

Moving and important stories I'll be holding space for on my upcoming 13th season of Family Secrets. Whether you've been on this journey with me from season one or just joining the Family Secrets family, we're so happy to have you with us. I'll dive deep into the incredible power of secrets, the ones that shape our identities, test our relationships, and ultimately reveal who we truly are. Listen to Family secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Ed Zitron (36:29)

Hey, everyone, it's Ed Helms and I'm Kal Penn and we are the hosts of The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.

Michael Fisher (36:37)

This week on the podcast, I am talking to film and TV critic, radio.

Ed Zitron (36:42)

And podcast host and Harry Potter super.

Michael Fisher (36:45)

Fan Rhianna Dillon to discuss Audible's full cast adaptation of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. What moments in this audiobook capture the feeling of the magical world best for you or just stood out the most?

Maria Hinojosa (37:02)

I always loved reading about the Quidditch matches and and I think the audio really gets it because it just plunges you right into the stands. You have the crowd sounds like all around you. It is surround sound, especially if you're listening in headphones.

Ed Zitron (37:18)

Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart.

Michael Fisher (37:20)

Audio Book Club on the iHeartradio app.

Garrison Davis (37:23)

Or wherever you get your podcasts.

Maria Hinojosa (37:32)

Hey, I'm Kelly and some of you may know me as Laura Winslow. And I'm Telma, also known as Aunt Rachel. If those names ring a bell, then you probably are familiar with the show that we were both on back in the 90s called Family Matters. Kelly and I have done a lot of things and played a lot of roles over the years, but both of us are just so proud to have been part of Family Matters.

Sherlyn Lowe (37:51)

Did you know, did you know that.

Maria Hinojosa (37:52)

We are one of the longest running sitcoms with a black cast? When we were making the show, there were so many moments filled with joy and laughter and cut up that I will never forget. Oh, girl, you got that right. The look that you all give me is so black. All black people know about the look. On each episode of welcome to the Family, we'll share personal reflections about making the show. Yeah, we'll even bring in part of the cast and stuff, some other special guests to join in the fun and spill some tea. Listen to welcome to the Family with Telma and Kelly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Ed Zitron (38:33)

And we're back in the room. We've got Sherlyn Lowe from Engadget.

Sherlyn Lowe (38:37)

Yes, hi.

Ed Zitron (38:37)

And we've got Ed Ongueso Jr. Of the Tech Bubble newsletter. Hello.

Engadget Host (38:41)

Hello.

Ed Zitron (38:41)

We've got author, activist and journalist Cory Doctorow.

Garrison Davis (38:44)

And this time I know I'm supposed to reply, hello.

Ed Zitron (38:46)

Nailed it. Flawless. No, I'm. And I have had a people say, like, email me. Be like, why do you do this? I'm like, because I get to hang out with my friends and do cool shit for like an entire week. Why are we alive? But we're here at ces. And I mean, there's also the question of why are we at ces. That is a reasonable one because it's a peculiar show, Corey. We had the best time at Amazon, though. We need to talk about this Amazon experience. Because to be clear, we're walking into the show floor for the first time, actually. CS Customer service got his badge immediately. And then we walk in. I'm like, oh, there's Amazon. Why not? And last year, by the way, Amazon, I had the picture of the smiling man on my badge and the woman outside grabbed it, went, wow. Which is. I don't think it was a good wow. But anyway, walk in there with Corey. We immediately walk up to this $5,000, like, truck pulled surveillance tower pole thing with like, it's Like a big, big thingy with, like, a pole and, like, just a ring of cameras. And Corey just walks over and starts asking questions.

Garrison Davis (39:45)

Well, no, I mean, I didn't even ask any questions. The guy walked up and said, hi, I'm the product manager for this. Do you have any questions? I wasn't gonna, you know, bollock them.

Michael Fisher (39:53)

Out of the blue.

Garrison Davis (39:54)

I didn't go in there looking for.

Michael Fisher (39:55)

You know, a victim.

Ed Zitron (39:56)

And you are not that type person.

Garrison Davis (39:58)

But I was like, since you ask. And I was like, well, so I know that there was that. The original ring camera, the doorbell camera, you guys took the posture that that footage was only available to the police in the event that the owner authorized the transfer to the police police. But there had been this persistent rumor that there was warrantless access to this footage, even against the wishes of the ring owner, which you initially denied and later had to walk back. I know this because I got into a big fight with Amazon PR when I published the story. And then they said it's not true, and then later on it was proved to be true. What's the deal with this? Can the police access it? Because this is a thing that's meant to go into, like, a parking lot at a job site or whatever.

Tech Journalist (40:44)

And.

Garrison Davis (40:44)

And it had some, as you pointed out, some racial overtones.

Ed Zitron (40:47)

Yeah, there were. The video behind it was, of course, two guys breaking in. And would you be surprised to hear they were Hispanic?

Garrison Davis (40:52)

Yeah.

Ed Zitron (40:52)

And then put white guys in there.

Garrison Davis (40:54)

You. And the AI caption was like, two men removing things from trunk of red car. So. So I said, you know, so can the cops access this footage, you know, without the owner? And he was like, well, I'm not sure. And I'm like, oh, okay, fine. Who can access this footage? Is this footage, end to end, encrypted? Is it sitting as an encrypted blob that no one at Amazon can access on your servers, so only I can access it as the owner of the device and so on. And he says, oh, yes, that is the case, just like with the ring doorbell. And I'm like, well, wait, that's not true of the ring doorbell. So hang on a second. It is just like an incontrovertible fact. You go into any court docket for petty theft or whatever, There's a ton of footage that cops have subpoenaed from ring doorbells. And so if cops can subpoena it, then Amazon has to be able to decrypt it. Yeah, so. And he's like, well, I'm not allowed to decrypt. I'm the project manager and our product manager. I can't decrypt it. I'm like, well, that's good. You have some access controls, but you're still escrowing the keys. And then I'm like, well, is it all controlled by an app or is there a desktop, desktop interface? And if so, can I download my footage? And he's like, no, it's desktop, just like with a, with the doorbell camera. And I'm like, so I can just like grab all the MPEG files and keep them on my hard drive? And he's like, I don't. I don't think you can. And I'm like, so what if I stop paying the subscription fee? Do I lose all the footage? And he's like, no, we'll let you download it. I'm like, so wait, can I download it or can I not? And then he eventually says, well, you're asking all these technical questions, I just don't know the answer. Answer. And I'm like, well, I, I was just standing here minding my own business when you came up and introduced me yourself to me as the product manager for this product. Like, is the product manager capable of answering what seems to me to be some pretty basic.

Ed Zitron (42:41)

Does a website do something?

Garrison Davis (42:43)

Yeah, like, like, can I. Does. Is the footage available to third parties? Is. I mean, because, you know, just from a straight up security perspective.

Maria Hinojosa (42:51)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (42:51)

Amazon's not immune to insider threats. If you've got, got, you know, 360 longitudinal video footage.

Ed Zitron (42:58)

And that's what this thing is. It can. It has a tube that goes into the sky with a bunch of cameras. And it was advertised as. They had this video behind with a picture of neighborhoods with all these blue blobs where these things were.

Engadget Host (43:09)

That's so good.

Maria Hinojosa (43:09)

I'm.

Engadget Host (43:10)

I'm so happy you guys got to see one of the new Sauron towers.

Garrison Davis (43:13)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, here's. Here's our pal. Exactly.

Engadget Host (43:16)

Maybe they'll give you a little ring that could be tied to your.

Garrison Davis (43:19)

It's got this like telescoping mask. But you could imagine, right, if you've got. This is quite a honey pot, right. If you've got the internals of a whole bunch of job sites with a bunch of easily stolen things. And there's an insider threat at Amazon. They've got a lot of employees. And famously, Amazon went through a series of CISOs, chief security officers, because they had this product first orientation where anyone who had a product team could download the entire Amazon database.

Ed Zitron (43:46)

Jesus Christ.

Garrison Davis (43:46)

And they had no access controls and no logging. They did not know how many copies of the internal Amazon database were. And their CISOs would come in and say, okay, step one, we have to stop doing this.

Engadget Host (43:56)

Did they ever figure out how many people.

Garrison Davis (43:57)

No, no, no. There's no census of how many cop, like, multiple copies because they've got aws. Right, Right. So copying the entire database of every SKU and every purchase on Amazon is, like, tractable within Amazon's own infrastructure. And so, you know, their CISO's first advice was always like, don't do this. And. And then. But the people who are in charge of, like, product nimbleness would say, well, we are able to spin up a product team and then figure out whether the product is any good by grabbing this giant data set, mining it for insights. So we. We're going to override the security person. And eventually they hired. They promoted someone internal who was too junior and didn't know well enough, and then they had a gigantic breach. Right. So this. I think this is all. Andy Greenberg at Wired. Did this report?

Michael Fisher (44:42)

Hell yeah.

Garrison Davis (44:43)

And so, you know, like, they're famously, like, vulnerable to insider threat.

Ed Zitron (44:47)

Also say, if you're a listener who works at Amazon Web Services and you're able to click on that thing that says anthropic, why don't you sell me, send me more of them numbers? I want to see. I want to see them numbers. My favorite part of this conversation, though, was right towards the end when he went, yeah, you. You could buy one for your backyard. You think you would? And just you. You were like, so much nicer than I.

Garrison Davis (45:06)

Well, to be fair to him, I said, like, is this all being sold to business customers, or are there people with McMansions who want it? And he said, well, do you want it for your mansion? And I was like, do you have a mansion? And I was like, I don't have a mansion. So he was kind of. I think you missed that.

Ed Zitron (45:21)

After 10 minutes of speed bagging, though, I would have just. I would have been like, I.

Garrison Davis (45:25)

This guy did not know when to.

Ed Zitron (45:26)

Sir, I'm dying. I need to leave.

Garrison Davis (45:28)

Right. But we woke.

Maria Hinojosa (45:29)

We had a good.

Ed Zitron (45:30)

We had a good toddle around today. You got to see some ces. We saw some cells.

Garrison Davis (45:33)

Yeah. We went to, like, the crap gadget room with all the international pavilions, and there was some good stuff. I'm trying to pull up my favorite. So from one of the universities around Tokyo, there was the. You know, they have these tech transfer offices where they're trying to like productize things being made in the labs. And there was a group called Integrated Electron Source who had a graphene electron emitter, which was basically a consumer electronics style imaging system that could Image down to 4nm, designed for visual inspection of chips. And I've just come from Hamburg where I saw Bunny Wang, who's the greatest hardware hacker in the world, present on his work on building system on a chips that are open to visual inspection infection. Because Bunny is absolutely convinced that people are hiding bad in silicon. Yeah, especially when we're talking about a system on a chip.

Ed Zitron (46:21)

When you say bad, what do you mean specifically?

Garrison Davis (46:23)

So like you know, all, all hardware is, is software in etched in silicon. Right. So any program, any malware you can imagine, you could hide.

Ed Zitron (46:33)

And so when you, when you use the chip in a hard piece of.

Garrison Davis (46:36)

Hardware, it's doing something bad.

Ed Zitron (46:37)

When he says backdoor it also when.

Engadget Host (46:39)

He says he's convinced that people are hiding bad in his belief that there's nothing stopping along the point of production.

Garrison Davis (46:51)

You can do that. So the thing to understand is that an SOC wafer is just a, it's a risk like reduced instructions, a computing chip wafer and the typical SOC is using like 25, 30% of it. So most of that chip is dark matter. And when you're taping out the dye and getting ready to nano lithography graph the chip, you could just tape out a whole bunch of other stuff. And Bunny's talk at CCC was about how he convinced a chip maker to let him tape out some open source chips in the, in the dark matter because it was like, you know, you're going to run 10 million of these, do another 200,000, I'll pay for that part of it. Everyone gets them really cheap because the, the product gets cheaper the more of these you run. He was able to fit five more processors on a processor. Right. So it's super cool. It's called the BOW chip, all open source and all visually inspectable. So you can take the chip, take the file that describes the chip, take the chip and put it in a optical inspection unit and then it will produce a file and you can lay the two on top of each other and see if there's any extra gates that shouldn't be there. Is this chip the chip it says it is just like this incredibly important thing. You think about how much of our world is running on this uninspectable silicon and like how many people in the supply chain chain could do something to sabotage that Silicon.

Engadget Host (48:09)

Anyway, I could read more and look more at his stuff.

Garrison Davis (48:13)

This is on Pluralistic. Yesterday I wrote a blog post about.

Engadget Host (48:18)

I'll check that out.

Garrison Davis (48:19)

He calls it piggybacking.

Engadget Host (48:20)

This makes me curious about. Nvidia named their newest generation of chips the CPU and the GPU collaboration the Var. Rubin. And at first I thought it was just like a very vague gesture on a few superficial levels to varub who discovered that we probably have some. Either we have dark matter, we have some fundamental failure in our explanatory model for the universe. But also I'm curious, like, you know, is it just like a tongue in cheek also joke or reference to the fact that we have.

Garrison Davis (48:49)

We don't know what's in the chip?

Ed Zitron (48:50)

Yeah, I. I don't. I don't know. No, they know exactly what's in the chip. And it's getting more expensive.

Garrison Davis (48:55)

That's.

Ed Zitron (48:56)

That's what. Oh, God. Are they doing like a deal with arm? I. I hate to do this, but sure. Selling just aggressive segue, what have you on the show.

Garrison Davis (49:03)

Just.

Ed Zitron (49:04)

No.

Maria Hinojosa (49:04)

Well, just.

Garrison Davis (49:04)

Just to put a button on it. One last thing. I want to say.

Ed Zitron (49:06)

No, please.

Garrison Davis (49:07)

4 nanometers. That was that. That was the thing that just blew myself.

Ed Zitron (49:10)

And that's.

Tech Journalist (49:11)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (49:11)

4 Nanometer imaging in commodity hardware. Holy. This is amazing.

Ed Zitron (49:16)

And I'm pretty Sure that's like 4nm what they built the latest Nvidia Blackwell GPUs on. I'd have to check.

Maria Hinojosa (49:23)

Yeah.

Ed Zitron (49:24)

Because they couldn't get. They couldn't get down to 3 nanometer. And that was a whole thing with the process.

Sherlyn Lowe (49:28)

Yeah.

Ed Zitron (49:28)

But Sherlyn, what have you seen on the four. Because you're. You're only with us for this group. So I want to hear more. What have you seen this year that you liked?

Sherlyn Lowe (49:34)

I mean, hearing all of you talk, it just reminds me like how diverse this show is. It's a huge show. Covers such a broad scope. I mean. And I, I got lost in what you were talking about because it's fascinating. But it also makes me question the C&Cs consumer.

Ed Zitron (49:48)

That's not consumer.

Sherlyn Lowe (49:50)

What is for the consumer if it's all robots and AI?

Ed Zitron (49:52)

I mean, it's downstream. It's like eventually. But it's like this is so much of it. Is that consumer.

Sherlyn Lowe (49:58)

Where are consumers? Where are they? What are. Where's the thought for the consumers?

Ed Zitron (50:02)

Have you seen that in the. Do you feel like the overall show has been less consumer?

Sherlyn Lowe (50:06)

I think to the point we were making at the start of this episode, it's A physical manifestation of a slob. And, and all a lot of the ones that were here this year, the ones that braved the immigration risk to come here and share their wares. That just means that their motivation was what to find partners? To find someone buy them. Yeah, it's. And that's the sense I'm getting of a lot of AI hardware out there. Because if you're still trying to one at this point without a clear differentiator, then you are out here trying to get some kind of VC major company to buy you.

Garrison Davis (50:37)

Yeah, sure.

Sherlyn Lowe (50:38)

And after Amazon bought B it's just like who's going to buy the next best one?

Ed Zitron (50:41)

B was the one wearable Victoria Victoria Song curse reporter in the world as she should Victoria's SONG I champion yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sherlyn Lowe (50:50)

And I was, I was talking to the founder of B at the CES as well. And you know, I'm not going to dwell too much on that just because I think be lucked out in getting a home so quickly.

Ed Zitron (51:01)

Get that paper, especially from Amazon.

Sherlyn Lowe (51:03)

Go get that. But then the rest of them that are here, what is, what is the end game? What is the golden. To your point about E waste. That's going to be E waste. The ones that they make, the ones that they sell in limited quantities, but still massive quantities.

Ed Zitron (51:13)

Only smart watches that run on like AWS servers that will get taken down the moment the company stops paying for them, which will be quite quickly.

Sherlyn Lowe (51:21)

Yeah. So I think it's. It was just like a lot of waiting through this like existential dread of all of this is going to end up in landfills. All of these robots, all of these AI wearables, all of these AI native devices. So we, we tried very hard to see things that we were interested in. And I don't know if you've talked about this yet, but the. We made a video of this device that has taken off on at least by our standards, it's got like millions of views at this point. It is called the Wheel Move. It is a wheelchair based. It's an assisted. It's an assistive device that you attach to the front of your wheelchair and it provides sort of a motorized rugged wheel that props up the front of your wheelchair and helps you over like rugged terrain, uneven surfaces, this gross extra boost. Yeah, and that rocks. It is just so smart because it's simple. Right. It's not a whole over engineered wheelchair, it's just an attachment to the front. And I was talking to someone about it this morning who reminded me that not all Wheelchair users are always in wheelchair. Sometimes they're there temporarily and I forgot, sometimes they're just recovering, sometimes they're in rehab and they just need the assistance for a bit. But getting out there, going wheel move, wheel move. Yeah. Going out on like a hike maybe or a walk and sometimes you encounter, you know, not the smoothest pavement or.

Ed Zitron (52:34)

Sometimes there's just showing everyone what it looks like. It's like a wheel on the front of it.

Sherlyn Lowe (52:38)

That's fun.

Ed Zitron (52:39)

And you know what it's like. We've seen a lot of exoskeletons while we were on the floor. We saw like a, like a, kind of a skateboard.

Garrison Davis (52:45)

Yeah. So this is, I brought the brochure back. So we saw this thing called the straight sternboard which is the same thing, but it doesn't clip onto a wheelchair. It clips onto a motorized skateboard and turns it into an all terrain motorized skateboard. It was this French dude, Stern board. S T E R N board.

Ed Zitron (53:01)

Cool as shit. I love the mobility stuff because if you think about why technology exists, it's to make humans better and able to do more and what limitations we have can be surmounted with technology. The AI slot doesn't seem, seem to be that.

Sherlyn Lowe (53:15)

I mean I, I can understand some of them, what they're saying and what they're trying to sell, but I, sometimes you can see right through some of them. And look, I get there, there's a lot of cute robots and, and cute is fine.

Ed Zitron (53:26)

I'm so right.

Sherlyn Lowe (53:27)

But what is the freaking point?

Ed Zitron (53:28)

Well, have you seen anything you liked? And I don't mean this sarcastic wheel move. I, I, if the point is you haven't, that's totally.

Sherlyn Lowe (53:36)

No, no, I, I did see something interesting and last year I came on this better off line of the CES edition as well. And talking about an LED mask this year I've got another LED mask that's fine.

Garrison Davis (53:47)

Like a beauty mask mask.

Sherlyn Lowe (53:49)

Yeah, one of those like that puts red light on your face. L' Oreal came through with like the LED masks that are flexible so like they're skin like in terms of texture instead of the rigid hard shells that you've seen therabody omnilux or Dr. Dexter make. So it wraps on your face much better and is transparency, is it comfortable? Yeah, it's supposed to be more comfortable. L' Oreal wasn't letting people put the full face version on, on their own faces for various like sanitary and FDA related reasons. I saw the person put them on, I saw it on the mannequin's head. I may have seen other things. And I can tell you that the. The proposition is setting off this.

Tech Journalist (54:33)

Yeah, I have.

Sherlyn Lowe (54:34)

I can't say things, but I can tell you that it seems like it would fit better on most heads. Right. Like, I don't have the same nose another person might have, and I don't have the same eyes or eye socket shapes that another person might have. And I think that a more flexible shell for these LED masks would be a bit more inclusive, I think. Also much more comfortable because the button and where it turns on the power running, the LED lights, it's on the mask so it sits on your forehead, so you press the power button there as opposed to, like a cable dangling down the side of your face into a power, like, remote control thing. And then the fact that it's transparent is just wild. They've also made, like, under eye mask versions of it. And I am bringing, like, the health and wellness sort of, like, vibes here into this episode.

Ed Zitron (55:19)

But that's good.

Sherlyn Lowe (55:20)

I just like that idea. L' Oreal also says it's very close to producing these for, like, you know, actual sale. They're very close. So I think that. And that's also another thing that's interesting because this is not vaporware. It's actually going to be made. And that's what we also look out for. Not just trash that's going to sit in a landfill someday.

Ed Zitron (55:38)

You've been to a lot of cess, and it feels like this is one of the more vapor weary ones. I'm really like, I don't want it to be. No, I really don't.

Sherlyn Lowe (55:46)

I know. I. Well, there's also, like, a lot of things that will come out. I mean, so. So this year, Engaging took a risk. We went. Let's look at all our best of CES winners from last year and check out where they are now. Surprisingly, pretty much all of them are either on track or have already put their devices on sale or are like, oh, we will be at CES 2026 to show you the updates. One of them we did manage to locate. So we're kind of like, what's going on there? So it is like a kind of risky endeavor to do that story because you want to know that as a publication, we're only endorsing the right. The more legitimate types of businesses. At the same time, it's like, we want to do the investigative work. We want to be very honest. If this company end up looking shady, right.

Tech Journalist (56:35)

Do we look.

Garrison Davis (56:36)

They were shady or that they were out competed by worst.

Tech Journalist (56:39)

Right.

Sherlyn Lowe (56:39)

It could also be that. Exactly.

Garrison Davis (56:41)

You know, they could still be the best one at.

Sherlyn Lowe (56:43)

Thank you. That helps.

Tech Journalist (56:44)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (56:45)

Or sometimes, you know, they also.

Engadget Host (56:47)

It's something. Something that just ends up not working. You know, one thing that the last two years I've been really interested in is technology that allows people who are deaf or who know sign language to communicate. My bro, my older brother is deaf. One of my greatest anxieties and fears is that he refuses to wear hearing aids. Yeah, hearing aids and any sort of assistive tech. And you know, there have been many times, you know, and thankfully, like we've had this protocol established before, but there have been many times where he's been stopped by cops and he just like, you know, he's immediately. When stopped by a cop, reaching into the car to get a notepad and pen to write for them. So I've made him, you know, call me beforehand so that we can talk about it, so that, you know, there's no misunderstanding or any sort of escalation of things. But, you know, technology that allows for immediate communication would be nice. But then, you know, a lot of times when I go to these booths and I sit down and I ask, okay, what are the scenarios in which they're interested in offering this sort of assistive tech? They're almost exclusively in one very narrow scenario which is in a workplace and in a business, which I understand, but it's like that is actually also not the space where I assume and from what I've seen from people I know who are deaf and from people and from, you know, my own brother, you know, are interested in. But nonetheless, you still have firms who maybe are, you know, they are created by people who are deaf or around people who are deaf who know that that's not the use case.

Ed Zitron (58:16)

Yeah.

Engadget Host (58:16)

But are not going to get funding, interest or.

Sherlyn Lowe (58:21)

Yeah, that's very depressing.

Ed Zitron (58:22)

I will also say with like checking back up, you're all humans.

Sherlyn Lowe (58:27)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ed Zitron (58:27)

Like you can go here. And this is the consumer electronics fraud show. Like, I think, I think it's all about. There are people who come here with the intention of deceiving. And I don't think there's anything wrong with being like, yeah, we thought this.

Maria Hinojosa (58:39)

Right.

Sherlyn Lowe (58:39)

And that's where, that's where I was like.

Ed Zitron (58:41)

And I think it was about. I'm gonna say push back if you want to. Having read Engadget since like the early, like the mid-2000s, what happened? It's what Engadget is now is really good. There's a reason I have a lot of Engadget people on is because it's just people who like tech and they go and look at stuff and they like it or they dislike it, and you move on. And I say that as an honest reader, and it's like, yeah, if you go back and you say, yeah, we got fucking swindled by these people, I feel like anyone who gets mad at that is a moron. I just think if you're. You're dope. If you're like, wow, a publication was like, yeah, we got something wrong. Oh, I don't like that. Yeah, yeah, save me more, daddy. And it's just like, I feel like it. Every single publication should do that. It should not be something anyone is afraid of. And indeed, if you don't do that, it makes me deeply worried about the future. Because, you know what, if you come here and you end up writing about something that is just a lie or never make makes it. That's CES, right? And this particular CES, there's a lot of that. And in 2027, we need to do this because the AI bubble is likely to burst in the next year and we're going to need to dig through the ditches, so to speak, and see what fucking happens. Because there's so much AI rapper shit. I was hoping you'd love more stuff, but I did.

Sherlyn Lowe (59:58)

I mean, I, I'm. I. I loved some stuff. Well, I think part of it was this CES more than others. I was kind of chained to my laptop running things rather than, like, going out out there and seeing things. So I. Okay. I saw something that I loved to hate on, if that helps.

Tech Journalist (60:12)

Yes.

Sherlyn Lowe (60:13)

Have you heard about the Lollipop Star?

Garrison Davis (60:15)

Oh, yeah. So we gave it a worst in show this year. Consumer Union and the Repair Coalition.

Sherlyn Lowe (60:22)

Tell me why you gave it worst in show.

Ed Zitron (60:24)

Also, what it is.

Sherlyn Lowe (60:25)

It's exactly eways.

Garrison Davis (60:26)

And then so we singing lollipops.

Engadget Host (60:28)

Tell me more about this. Because I did not see this.

Ed Zitron (60:29)

I have no idea what this is. I'm completely.

Sherlyn Lowe (60:31)

Go ahead.

Maria Hinojosa (60:32)

Score.

Garrison Davis (60:32)

I mean, it's just. It's a sound chip and a, you know, soc in a lollipop handle. And you put the lollipop on top and through bone conduction. You hear a song while you eat a lollipop. It's just a lithium battery that goes in a landfill.

Ed Zitron (60:44)

Iris Psycho.

Sherlyn Lowe (60:46)

Yeah, because you can't reuse it. You can, like, do. And the battery is not, like, rechargeable, which I guess makes sense. But it's it's kind of ridiculous.

Engadget Host (60:53)

I saw this offered at a white elephant that I was at two weeks before I came here.

Maria Hinojosa (60:57)

Wow.

Ed Zitron (60:58)

I just. I'm like, if I.

Engadget Host (60:59)

And I was wondering, everyone was like, this seems like a horrible idea.

Maria Hinojosa (61:02)

Was it.

Sherlyn Lowe (61:02)

What favorite flavor did you get? Acorn or. Why don't you.

Tech Journalist (61:04)

No idea. It was.

Engadget Host (61:05)

I. I did not get it. I tried. I was really hard. I was honing in on the lottery tickets. There's a stack of 50 lotto scratch offs and I really wanted them and everybody else.

Garrison Davis (61:14)

Did you get them?

Engadget Host (61:15)

No.

Tech Journalist (61:15)

So the thing.

Engadget Host (61:16)

I got a books. I got a bunch of books.

Garrison Davis (61:18)

The thing with the singing lollipop is. So my last time at CES was 20 years ago. More than 20 years ago. 2003. And before that I came a few times in the 90s for Wired. And I have seen singing lollipops at scene.

Maria Hinojosa (61:31)

Exactly.

Ed Zitron (61:31)

They're not new.

Garrison Davis (61:32)

I also. Speaking of which, though, on the floor today, me and Ed saw Smell O Vision. And a smell vision is another thing. I've seen every single scene.

Tech Journalist (61:40)

Tell me about.

Garrison Davis (61:40)

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Sherlyn Lowe (61:41)

That's what we're saying this year on my team is that it's kind of the comeback ces, the comeback of all these older technologies that we've seen with like pebbles coming back, clicks with the communicator. Lego was not really a comeback, but it's.

Ed Zitron (61:53)

I saw something that said skateboard Penguin.

Garrison Davis (61:55)

Yeah.

Ed Zitron (61:56)

I'm your little sidekick company whoever Penguin around my house whenever you see you need me. Skateboard Penguin.

Sherlyn Lowe (62:03)

Then you use a lot of ridiculous.

Garrison Davis (62:05)

And let's pop the stack just briefly. But also to get Cryptac.

Ed Zitron (62:09)

No, no. But also to get back to the thing you were talking about there. The reason I was looking was because they had the tagline welcome to the era of pseudo reality.

Garrison Davis (62:16)

Oh yeah, that was the Smell O vision.

Ed Zitron (62:18)

Yes, yes.

Garrison Davis (62:19)

They had Smell O Vision and then they had like an essential oil Mr. With that made smoke Steam. But on Cryptek, if anyone wants to follow a very good Cryptek influencer, Liz Henry, used to be a build manager for Mozilla, now is just doing Cryptek, I think full time. Bookmaniac.org and I'll send you the link.

Michael Fisher (62:40)

Thank you.

Garrison Davis (62:41)

And she is in command of a small fund that she disperses in thousand dollar and box below grants to people doing cool Cryptek adaptation.

Michael Fisher (62:49)

Yeah.

Ed Zitron (62:50)

What is Cryptek though?

Garrison Davis (62:51)

For those accessibility technology. So wheelchair.

Sherlyn Lowe (62:54)

I thought crypto tech.

Ed Zitron (62:55)

I was like security.

Garrison Davis (62:57)

No, no, no. Cryptek. So yeah, cool.

Sherlyn Lowe (62:59)

I get what it is. I know what you're saying.

Garrison Davis (63:01)

We saw an amazing four line braille reader on the floor that was.

Ed Zitron (63:04)

That was cool. It was like a braille keyboard.

Tech Journalist (63:06)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (63:06)

And it was standards defined. It plugged into your USB C as and showed up as standard display.

Ed Zitron (63:13)

It just.

Garrison Davis (63:13)

Just excellent. And the.

Ed Zitron (63:14)

You know what I noticed about. I wish I remembered the company name because they actually deserve it. The guy was just like every. Like people. People really try and do like a micro job being like imagine a world where it's. And this guy was just like, yeah, it connects regularly like a keyboard. You can see it here. That's not our software. That stat.

Garrison Davis (63:29)

He was very all standards defined and.

Ed Zitron (63:32)

He was very clear to be like, this is not our software. This just plugs into anything. The people who need bread.

Sherlyn Lowe (63:37)

You don't need inter friction. Right.

Ed Zitron (63:39)

Like that guy. Design serves the huge boots. Every single blind person probably could. I'm not blind, so I truly don't. Sorry. Visually impaired. So I don't know what the experience is, but I don't know. Seems like it fucking worked. And the guy was not trying to like hock anything.

Garrison Davis (63:56)

It was well built. It was standards defined. It was chunky and rugged. And it will outlive changes to the OS because it's built around open standards.

Ed Zitron (64:06)

It was just the USB connect didn't.

Sherlyn Lowe (64:07)

Nice.

Garrison Davis (64:08)

Yeah.

Sherlyn Lowe (64:08)

Yeah. I think when you said Cryptek, I was reminded of something that we didn't see in person, but we heard or read about. There's a water heater for your home that will crypto mine while you shower.

Garrison Davis (64:18)

Oh, I've heard about these.

Ed Zitron (64:19)

I think everyone who put that together.

Garrison Davis (64:21)

There's a room heater as well that does this. This is like a gimmick. Right?

Ed Zitron (64:25)

You can also.

Engadget Host (64:25)

Yeah. There's a bath house in Williamsburg that does something like this.

Garrison Davis (64:28)

Oh, off.

Maria Hinojosa (64:28)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (64:29)

That is the most Brooklyn thing ever.

Engadget Host (64:30)

I know.

Garrison Davis (64:34)

District.

Engadget Host (64:35)

Oh no.

Ed Zitron (64:35)

Close enough. So was that the same one where they all got legionnaires?

Engadget Host (64:39)

Listen. My God, I think I knew that one.

Ed Zitron (64:41)

Thankfully chillin's like, yeah, I know which.

Sherlyn Lowe (64:44)

One you're talking about.

Engadget Host (64:45)

Oh, you know. You know, I'll slander them. Their name. It's. It's not the two bath house, you know.

Ed Zitron (64:50)

Yeah, yeah, yep. That's the legionnaires one.

Engadget Host (64:52)

Yeah, yeah, yep.

Ed Zitron (64:53)

I hear.

Sherlyn Lowe (64:53)

Wait, so they do crypto mining?

Engadget Host (64:55)

Yeah. So the guy who runs it, he loves crypto and so you can pay in crypto.

Garrison Davis (65:00)

Crypto.

Ed Zitron (65:01)

Classic Brooklyn.

Engadget Host (65:02)

And he initially tried to market it as like, you know, like some of the heat generation is gonna Go is is coming from crypto. But then he removed that silently. And I don't know if he removed it because it was like, it's not actually, or because he doesn't want people to also just.

Garrison Davis (65:17)

No, I think it's because it doesn't work. Yes.

Ed Zitron (65:19)

Also just mining difficulty has reached a point where all of these little just doesn't work.

Garrison Davis (65:25)

We go scuba diving on Roatan, which is the island island where Prospera, the crypto city is in. Oh, God, Honduras.

Tech Journalist (65:31)

The future.

Garrison Davis (65:31)

We've been going for years. It's this beautiful little like dirt road island, Afro Caribbean Island. The food's amazing, the diving's amazing. It's. It's just a lovely place. And then the former dictator of Honduras, who was just pardoned by Trump, who's a narco trafficker, sold them the sovereign rights to a chunk of this island. And you walk down the dirt road in the dive town and every shop has got a, a sign in the window that says, we accept Bitcoin. And you walk in and you say, do you accept Bitcoin? And they're like, of course we don't accept Bitcoin.

Ed Zitron (66:00)

Are you fucking kidding me?

Garrison Davis (66:02)

We don't even rely on electronics.

Ed Zitron (66:04)

I don't have 15 minutes to wait.

Engadget Host (66:05)

For this or an interview about these reactionaries. They know how to pick a spot, you know.

Garrison Davis (66:11)

Yeah.

Engadget Host (66:12)

If I were going to make a.

Ed Zitron (66:13)

Future network statement, here's the thing.

Engadget Host (66:15)

That is one of the places I would do it.

Ed Zitron (66:17)

They don't have the actual stones to find a real place where there's truly no laws.

Garrison Davis (66:21)

Yeah, right.

Engadget Host (66:22)

Well, yeah, yeah.

Ed Zitron (66:23)

And also because all of the actual pirates and real criminals would kill them.

Engadget Host (66:28)

I mean, this is the thing with the pirate enlightenment book of David Grayburn.

Garrison Davis (66:32)

Yeah.

Engadget Host (66:32)

You know, you give, you give fascists a lawless zone and you let other people come into the lawless zone and everyone else will go, why are there fascists here?

Tech Journalist (66:40)

Yeah, yeah.

Garrison Davis (66:41)

Well, do you know, do you know libertarian walks into a bear? The story about that libertarian exit town in New Hampshire where they all make moved in and then they ran for city council and then they abolished the school district and they did all. And they abolished all the rules. And then this one lady kept feeding bears and they were like, please stop feeding bears. She was like, I thought there were no rules. They were all being mauled by bears. But, but this, this Marxist gun nut weed grower moves in and he's like, I'm going to grow weed and collect guns and wait for the Marxist revolution. And they're like, but we're a libertarian town. He's like, well, what are you going to do?

Maria Hinojosa (67:12)

Actually?

Ed Zitron (67:13)

Actually, libertarian means you're nothing. Yeah, no, it's my favorite. One of my favorite old school Internet videos is the Libertarian Conference, where it's like, well, I think the driver's licenses should exist.

Garrison Davis (67:25)

And there's like, I think.

Engadget Host (67:26)

There should be some competency in the driving.

Ed Zitron (67:28)

I remember saying that, no, allow us to die in car crashes. We're approaching the break right now, but I really have been trying all week, listeners. I swear to God, I've been trying to get people to talk to me about awesome stuff. This CES is weird. This is a broken ces. There's something wrong.

Engadget Host (67:46)

I do think that one plus I would say for ces, it is actually a really great spot for you to come through and think about the way in which technological products are offered as. And the role they play in your life. You know, like, are you satisfied with tech products that are solely around convenience or solely around. Around, you know, assistive tech or solely around health or, you know, like, what is it that you want? And do you think that the industry and the sectors are interested in developing? Yeah, I think this is a.

Ed Zitron (68:18)

What are they interested in building rather than what are you thinking?

Maria Hinojosa (68:22)

I think.

Engadget Host (68:22)

I think this is a very good place for coming and talking to people and getting sense of whether or not other people share those priorities with you.

Maria Hinojosa (68:28)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (68:28)

You and I saw something that we went away and bought, which was that Waco espresso maker.

Ed Zitron (68:32)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (68:34)

Hot water, pump it up, gets to 9 atmospheres, it ejects it a shot of espresso. It has no batteries.

Ed Zitron (68:40)

It's like, yeah. Another thing, it's like, do you like coffee?

Garrison Davis (68:43)

Right.

Ed Zitron (68:44)

Imagine if you could have coffee on the go. And it worked.

Garrison Davis (68:46)

The coffee was. As a guy who flies around with an Aeropress, but whose wife prefers espresso to coffee concentrate, I just literally walked off the trade floor and bought one because now it's small enough I could put both of them in my bag and my wife can have an espresso and I can have a coffee concentrate.

Ed Zitron (69:03)

If only old products were that good. Now, the upcoming advertisement, I assume, will be for a product that's even better than that and even more useful. If it's a podcast, you need to listen with complete attention. Put down your phone or else.

Maria Hinojosa (69:21)

Run a business. And not thinking about podcasting. Think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ad supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two commandments combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll Hear your message. Plus, only iHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think Podcasting can help your business? Think iHeart streaming radio and podcasting. Call 844-844 iHeart to get started. That's 844-844, iHeart.

Ed Zitron (69:53)

Hey everyone, it's Ed Helms. And I'm Kalpen and we are the hosts of Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.

Michael Fisher (70:02)

This week on the podcast, I am talking to film and TV critic, radio.

Ed Zitron (70:06)

And podcast host and Harry Potter super.

Michael Fisher (70:09)

Fan Rihanna Dillon to discuss Audible's full cast adaptation of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. What moments in this audiobook capture the feeling of the magical world best for you or or just stood out the most?

Maria Hinojosa (70:26)

I love always loved reading about the Quidditch matches and and I think the audio really gets it because it just plunges you right into the stands. You have the crowd sounds like all around you. It is surround sound, especially if you're listening in headphones.

Ed Zitron (70:41)

Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart.

Michael Fisher (70:44)

Audio Book Club on the iHeartradio app.

Garrison Davis (70:47)

Or wherever you get your podcasts.

Maria Hinojosa (70:56)

Hey, I'm Kelly and some of you may know me as Laura Winslow. And I'm Telma, also known as Aunt Rachel. If those names ring a bell, then you probably are familiar with a show that we were both on back in the 90s called Family Matters. Kelly and I have done a lot of things and played a lot of roles over the years, but both of us are just so proud to have been part of Family Matters. Did you know that we are one of the longest running sitcoms with a black cast? When we were making the show, there were so many moments filled with joy and laughter and cut up that I will never forget. Oh girl, you got that right. The look that you all give me is so black. All black people know about the look. On each episode of welcome to the Family, we'll share personal reflections about making the show. Yeah, we'll even bring in part of the cast and some other special guests to join in the fun and spill some tea. Listen to welcome to the Family with Telma and Kelly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Maria Hinojosa, host of Latino usa. Venezuelans around the world are celebrating the takedown of former President Maduro, but inside the country there is fear and silence. And in the United States People are concerned about Donald Trump, Trump's rogue tactics. Listen to Latino usa, the fall of Maduro, and the rise of an unconstrained Trump. That's on your iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Ed Zitron (72:27)

And we're back to the better offline CES experience. And we've got author, activist, and journalist Corey Doctora.

Garrison Davis (72:33)

Hello.

Ed Zitron (72:34)

And gadgets. Sherlyn Lowe.

Maria Hinojosa (72:36)

Hi.

Ed Zitron (72:37)

And Garrison Davis of It Could Happen Here. How you doing, Garrison?

Tech Journalist (72:40)

Oh, it's another beautiful CES in beautiful Las Vegas, Nevada.

Ed Zitron (72:44)

What have you seen today?

Tech Journalist (72:46)

Today I finally did Hall D. I've been neglecting Hall D. What did you see?

Maria Hinojosa (72:55)

And that's.

Tech Journalist (72:55)

Yes, I guess I also had fun in the Amazon booth.

Ed Zitron (73:01)

Yeah, we've been punishing them.

Tech Journalist (73:03)

Yeah, I assumed. I assumed you've been punishing them.

Ed Zitron (73:06)

We went in there to punish them.

Tech Journalist (73:08)

Yeah. No, if you lose your dog, you can use all the ring cameras in your neighborhood to find.

Ed Zitron (73:14)

I have a $5,000 surveillance tower from a trailer that now will tell me if anyone walks near my house in any way so that I can dial 911 and claim there's a prowler.

Garrison Davis (73:25)

But will it measure their skull with cal.

Tech Journalist (73:28)

Excuse me?

Garrison Davis (73:28)

Will it measure their skull with calipers to tell you whether they are likely criminals?

Tech Journalist (73:32)

Only on Ring plus with their new LiDAR system.

Michael Fisher (73:36)

Nice.

Tech Journalist (73:37)

Maybe. No, there's also this, like, ring, like, mesh. Mesh network. I'm not sure if you. If you saw that. Oh, they're doing this Nest Ring Sidewalk, I think is what it's called.

Ed Zitron (73:46)

Yeah, it's on by default.

Tech Journalist (73:47)

I think there's a WI FI outage. They will. They will act as a mesh to. To still be able to notify you if there's, like, movement around your house. There's no live video because of. Because of how bandwidth constraints. So it uses. It uses like, point, like one. Like 1% of a home's WI FI system to communicate peer to peer to send.

Ed Zitron (74:12)

My experience of those is they don't work very well. Like the Nest one. If you ever try and install a Nest product and it tries to connect to another Nest product, it will break, in my experience.

Tech Journalist (74:22)

But the thing that I found interesting about the Pet finder is that it's basically making a consumer product based on the capacity that police have been using Ring for already. Right. Being able to, like, find people and have immediate. Nearly immediate access to footage. And now they're just turning that into a consumer side product.

Ed Zitron (74:43)

So how does it work?

Tech Journalist (74:45)

You request that you're you send a message probably to like to some like Amazon app about your pet being missing. And then it searches through all the ring cameras in the neighborhood to see if it can find the pet.

Ed Zitron (74:54)

I think that is completely and utterly evil.

Garrison Davis (74:58)

I don't think Rick Dog can use. Can you access people's footage?

Tech Journalist (75:03)

No, because they have it on. They immediately have it. Right. They're talking about how. How this footage is like secured and encrypted and no one can see it. Meanwhile, they're offering products based on.

Garrison Davis (75:11)

Right.

Tech Journalist (75:12)

Not us, based on everybody having ring. And that's another interesting thing is how all the new features are like useless if you only have one ring camera. The features are built or based on total societal acceptance that everyone already has these things. And the fact that everyone has these things enables all these extra features to work. So the actual individual products of these things, not very useful. But as long as your whole neighborhood has it, then it's like a really great product.

Ed Zitron (75:38)

The surveillance society told up Arryswith University.

Tech Journalist (75:42)

Sacrificing privacy for convenience. Just thinking the entire gamble with this style of product.

Ed Zitron (75:49)

The last scene of the conversation, just like ripping up the sideboards on everyone's houses to try and find the ring cameras. Very horrible. So wait, but you were in Hall D. What'd you see in there?

Tech Journalist (75:59)

Hall D again? More, more, more. LLM rapper robots. A lot of smaller. Smaller, like robots. Not, not like the big. The big ones.

Ed Zitron (76:09)

What were the robots doing?

Tech Journalist (76:10)

We. I looked at a few robots for like, you know, like learning robots for kids. For. It's like kind of a toy. And it's also also like supposed to be some kind of learning assistant.

Ed Zitron (76:21)

Kids see through that so quickly. I must be clear.

Sherlyn Lowe (76:24)

Or they get tired of it in like two minutes.

Maria Hinojosa (76:26)

Yes.

Tech Journalist (76:26)

No, it definitely. Look the ones I. The ones that I saw, including from this. This company called their. Their product was called Yonbo Yanbo X1, which they.

Ed Zitron (76:35)

They thought rolls off the tongue.

Garrison Davis (76:37)

I mean, it's.

Tech Journalist (76:38)

It's. It's a. It's a.

Sherlyn Lowe (76:39)

It looks like Chinese.

Tech Journalist (76:41)

It's Chinese for laywood. It sounds similar to the word for. For hug. But this is. Yeah.

Sherlyn Lowe (76:48)

Oh, okay.

Ed Zitron (76:50)

I don't speak any other language.

Tech Journalist (76:52)

Like, this is for natural language prompting. This is to help, allegedly, according to them, will help kids learn another language. The US side product just is ChatGPT. So if you're. If you're. If you're wanting to learn. Learn another language through ChatGPT. This is what it like looks. It'll do. It was the WI fi and hold these kind of off. So it's hard to get good product. It's hard to get a good baseline for how. For how good the product is, which everyone would assert to me.

Ed Zitron (77:21)

What were you going to say, Shannon?

Sherlyn Lowe (77:22)

I was going to say kind of off was a understatement of the WI fi situation at the Venetian this year. It was terrible. It's worse this year because even the WI fi was down. It was always. The signal is always bad. By the time you approach the Venetian, you have no more 5G or LTE, but like in the expo, the own, their own in house WI fi. Was that the irony of that was just.

Ed Zitron (77:42)

I wonder if that's because everyone has these GPTs.

Sherlyn Lowe (77:46)

Yes.

Tech Journalist (77:46)

Yeah.

Ed Zitron (77:46)

It's because everyone's just pummeling AWS worse than ever.

Sherlyn Lowe (77:49)

Yeah.

Ed Zitron (77:50)

Beating the fuck out of it.

Tech Journalist (77:51)

But, yeah, like, we, we tried, you know, they tried to give a demonstration where it would teach us like a Chinese word. And so, like, yeah, if you, you can learn a word, speak a little Chinese, but you can't. You can't actually. You can't, like, learn grammar. They can't correct a child to actually improve language. You can actually learn to speak a language. You can learn individual words, but that's not language learning. Right. You can do that in Duolingo and that's not teaching you a language.

Ed Zitron (78:15)

Google, if you were just looking for.

Garrison Davis (78:17)

A word, and Duolingo is already something that people who teach languages are like, this is not great. All the features that make Duolingo Duolingo sticky cut against the pedagogical value of it as a language training tool.

Tech Journalist (78:31)

So there was a lot of stuff like that. I did ask them about what their plans are if The API for ChatGPT gets more expensive. They said they do not expect that in the near future. But they have five other LLMs that they work with specifically. Their product is mostly in China right now. And they.

Ed Zitron (78:51)

So Quinn would have.

Tech Journalist (78:53)

They can swap. They can talk to LLM whenever they want to.

Sherlyn Lowe (78:56)

Which doesn't that kind of impact the quality of.

Ed Zitron (78:59)

Yes. Because each LLM is prompted differently.

Tech Journalist (79:02)

Yes.

Ed Zitron (79:03)

I love that, though. It's like, what if something bad happens? What if it doesn't?

Tech Journalist (79:07)

What if it doesn't? And even if it does, we'll just use.

Ed Zitron (79:10)

Something good will happen.

Tech Journalist (79:11)

They'll just use Deep Seek or whatever.

Garrison Davis (79:12)

I have a slightly different gloss on this, though, because we were saying before that, well, all these products seem undifferentiated and if they're all undifferentiated because they're Just a wrapper on top of ChatGPT and they're vulnerable to changes. That's one thing. And it maybe speaks well for chatgpt in that they'll have whatever companies among these are successful, it'll have them over a barrel, and it can jack up the price on threat of bricking their products and making their customers angry at them. But if the case is that Chachi PT is a commodity back end and there's 50 companies in China that can do the same thing at a tenth of the price. And ChatGPT's future plan is someday there will be so many people so reliant on us that we can charge $200 for something we're charging $2 for. The answer is the minute they start charging $200, there will be 50 Chinese companies that charge you $2.

Ed Zitron (79:58)

Brian Chesky of Airbnb even, who's like a disgusting booster who was specifically involved in making sure clammy Sam Altman managed to become CEO again. He literally has said, I'll use Chinese LLMs every day.

Tech Journalist (80:10)

Yeah.

Ed Zitron (80:11)

Which is really funny. So really it's one of the two. It's going to be either. But I also don't think because their API sales are like a small part of their revenue. It's just. Actually, here's a question. General question. Anyone hear about anyone using anthropic specific models even once?

Tech Journalist (80:25)

I've not heard anthropic mentioned.

Ed Zitron (80:27)

Yeah, yeah, but I mean specifically on the floor as powering someone. Do you know what.

Sherlyn Lowe (80:32)

Oh, Pebble. Pebble uses Claude.

Garrison Davis (80:33)

Oh, really interesting.

Ed Zitron (80:34)

But to just do the.

Sherlyn Lowe (80:35)

For the ring.

Maria Hinojosa (80:36)

AI.

Sherlyn Lowe (80:36)

Yeah, yeah, for the.

Ed Zitron (80:38)

But they said that was on device. There is no on device version of Claude. Oh, Pebble, I was so nice about you. Now I have to go and look into your innards.

Sherlyn Lowe (80:47)

I can go. We should go.

Ed Zitron (80:48)

No, I'm. I'm genuinely curious about that because there is no on device version of ChatGPT.

Michael Fisher (80:54)

Or any of the.

Sherlyn Lowe (80:55)

Now you're making me question if I should like, double check. I think I'm talking about.

Ed Zitron (80:59)

I think that that's worthwhile. Not. Not because. But the thing is I'm a. I'm a horrible freak that looks at this stuff constantly. So my natural thought was like, what do you mean? And I will admit the $75 pebble ring, supposedly on device as well, that did seem a little rich to me.

Tech Journalist (81:15)

Yeah.

Sherlyn Lowe (81:16)

What do you mean by rich?

Ed Zitron (81:16)

As in. In like an on device model and a tiny ring.

Sherlyn Lowe (81:19)

It's not on the ring. So it's on the phone. It's on the phone.

Ed Zitron (81:22)

Yes, but they're saying it's. If it needs to go through. Claude, that's not. I don't know, there's. There's something weird there. And again, that's something that will increase in price.

Tech Journalist (81:30)

Another on.

Ed Zitron (81:31)

What have you got there?

Tech Journalist (81:32)

Alleged on device product is the Luna pendant, which is real time AI emotion tracking. Okay.

Garrison Davis (81:39)

Oh, well, because it's not doing anything real. You can put a random number.

Tech Journalist (81:43)

Well, it's not actually. Actually, it is. It is listening to every single thing you say and building emotional assessments based on what you say as well as, you know, whatever kind of biometrics it can connect from a pendant resting on your. Like.

Ed Zitron (81:57)

Did they mention what the customer might be?

Tech Journalist (82:02)

No, not really.

Ed Zitron (82:03)

Because this always immediately goes to. Yeah, people with autism. We already ran into someone with a dog, a dog toy today. It was like it could help autistic children.

Tech Journalist (82:11)

This was not. This was. This was not marketed to that. This.

Ed Zitron (82:14)

What is this for then?

Tech Journalist (82:15)

This is. This is for. I want to say women. That was the classic.

Ed Zitron (82:21)

The classic doesn't understand emotion.

Sherlyn Lowe (82:24)

Women love to be told. What are we.

Ed Zitron (82:26)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. We finally found a device to be sexist without the need.

Sherlyn Lowe (82:30)

Without the men telling all of.

Tech Journalist (82:31)

All of the. Was. Was, was, was.

Garrison Davis (82:34)

That's pretty femme coded.

Ed Zitron (82:35)

Yeah.

Tech Journalist (82:35)

Yes. And it measures like six or seven. Oops, that was a mistake. I'm sorry.

Ed Zitron (82:43)

Oh, is that like a.

Tech Journalist (82:45)

It does like six or seven different emotions, but it's mostly done just through listening. On devices though they do not upload to the. They do not upload the audio to the cloud.

Ed Zitron (82:56)

Nice. Okay.

Tech Journalist (82:57)

It is on device, but so no biometric data.

Sherlyn Lowe (82:59)

Just listening.

Tech Journalist (83:01)

That's unclear.

Ed Zitron (83:03)

I know when it's unclear. It was.

Tech Journalist (83:04)

It was mostly listening because again I'm. I'm. It's some. Some. I honestly, I honestly slight language barriers when trying to talk with some of these boots here.

Ed Zitron (83:14)

I would respect them so much if it was for guys. If it was just like you guys never seem to know.

Sherlyn Lowe (83:19)

Yeah. It's a sound tone, high variability breathing and movement.

Tech Journalist (83:23)

That's what it was. Yeah. So there is something. It's rest because it's resting on your chest. So it can have some, some heart, some breathing, but most. Mostly it's just through listening to everything you say.

Sherlyn Lowe (83:32)

The reason I ask is that's the. The only thing that differentiates it from like the Halo tone. Wearable from ages go by Amazon. That's already doing the same thing. I'm very like. I have a good memory for all the devices that try to tell me what I'm feeling and tell me to chill out, calm down. So, like, this is the sort of device that reminds me. And there's another product that was at CES that was like, clearly, men made this for women. It was like a bra insert to, like, be wearable, to detect your. Detect your boobs. Well, no, your metric. It's kind of for gym purposes when you're working out. And I was just like, if you've paid any attention to the women's sports bra industry discourse at all, it's that we've been asking for these bra inserts to be removed or sewn in. We don't want them to be removable or fall out when they're trying. We just want them to remain in place or just be done with one.

Ed Zitron (84:18)

Of those classic situations of, did you talk to a woman before or after you made this?

Sherlyn Lowe (84:24)

Or anything else?

Maria Hinojosa (84:24)

Right.

Sherlyn Lowe (84:25)

Like, if you're designing a product for someone in a wheelchair. Have you. You worked with someone who's actually using a wheelchair?

Garrison Davis (84:29)

Well, the saying is, nothing about us without us. Which I discovered goes back to the Polish equivalent of the Magna carta in the 16th century. And it was what the barons made the king agree was that nothing about them would be done without them. It didn't. Didn't rhyme in Polish.

Tech Journalist (84:44)

Yeah.

Ed Zitron (84:45)

And that's also definitely not how CES works. CES is like, without you. We will sell to you.

Garrison Davis (84:50)

Yeah. It's to Henry Ford. Right. If I ask people what they wanted, they say, a faster horse. Right. And so we're here to tell you what you want. Yeah.

Ed Zitron (84:58)

Yeah. But these people would sell you, like, horseshoes to make the horses faster, rather than. It's like, these people don't connect to anything. I'm still sitting there trying to work out what that pendant is for. I'm going to be honest. Like, what, alien?

Tech Journalist (85:10)

Well, sometimes it's useful to know if you're calm or if you're angry.

Ed Zitron (85:15)

Oh, I know when I'm mad.

Garrison Davis (85:18)

My lips are moving.

Ed Zitron (85:19)

Yeah. Yeah. I'm breathing.

Sherlyn Lowe (85:20)

I recently started somatic therapy, and so I think I can understand the idea of the benefits of knowing when you're feeling something, identifying it and kind of like staying with it. But I don't think a pendant is going to tell me in real time.

Ed Zitron (85:35)

And it's not built for that.

Sherlyn Lowe (85:37)

Exactly.

Ed Zitron (85:37)

Or with any of that.

Garrison Davis (85:38)

I mean, what are you supposed to be doing? Like, looking down and going, oh, no, I'm angry.

Sherlyn Lowe (85:42)

And wine and breathe.

Tech Journalist (85:44)

It does. It does it does connect to an app where it has like, it has, it has like analysis of how you're feeling, how often you're feeling, you know, heart rate.

Ed Zitron (85:54)

This reminds me of Victoria song posting the Oura ring. Think of just like stressed straight like collective bargaining. Seven hours stressed. Oh God. So what you got a lot of paper there.

Tech Journalist (86:06)

I just like collecting these.

Michael Fisher (86:07)

That's fine.

Ed Zitron (86:08)

Anything else you regarded?

Tech Journalist (86:11)

Oh, I guess I'll talk about the one that I feel the weirdest about.

Ed Zitron (86:16)

Awesome.

Tech Journalist (86:17)

This is another CES Innovation award winner.

Sherlyn Lowe (86:21)

Oh dear.

Ed Zitron (86:21)

Okay.

Tech Journalist (86:22)

This is from South Korea. This is the self insight Therapy Resolve xr.

Ed Zitron (86:29)

Oh, okay. Well, I've got most of it.

Garrison Davis (86:31)

They've got up to the xr.

Tech Journalist (86:33)

This is a VR experience to give you a final goodbye to a deceased friend or family.

Sherlyn Lowe (86:41)

So the Black Mirror episode.

Tech Journalist (86:42)

So we have seen, seen stuff like this before. We have seen these kind of like VR experiences that are either fully scripted or done with like an AI. And I thought that's what this, that this was, I thought this was just another one of those and I was surprised why it won an Innovation Award because we've seen this stuff years ago. Yeah, this, the reason why it's different is that this is not an AI. This is not an AI system. This is not a pre recorded movie either. This is a avatar puppeted by a therapist as a part of a therapy program where you enter into it for a short amount of time to give this visual therapeutic exercise to someone when they weren't able to say goodbye to a family member, usually after some kind of accident is what this was. And they talked about a few instances of this really bad plane crash last year. And that was the main use case that we've seen. That is, it's right now just available in Korea. They're to trying, trying to expand to Japan and the United States where they would need to partner with therapists in those countries. So yes, I feel really odd about these types of products. Obviously specifically like the digital avatar nature of it. If you have a recording of your deceased loved one's voice, it can try to clone the voice.

Ed Zitron (88:04)

So it does use AI.

Tech Journalist (88:05)

It does use AI for the voice, but the person, there's therapists puppeting it who will do text to speech. So they will text to speech in whatever the person will accept.

Ed Zitron (88:20)

It's text to speech as well.

Tech Journalist (88:21)

So no, it is text. That's what it is. It is text to speech. So the therapist that's puppeting it, the words coming out of the avatar are from a therapist who's typing out the words as a part of this therapeutic exercise. Exercise that then will be. That will come out is in a cloned voice of the deceased.

Sherlyn Lowe (88:38)

Are they also controlling like the gestures when you see puppeting?

Tech Journalist (88:41)

Yes. There is a pre recorded set of movements that they can. That they can initiate.

Ed Zitron (88:48)

This sounds traumatizing.

Sherlyn Lowe (88:51)

Yeah.

Tech Journalist (88:51)

They said that the people have used it, have liked it and there's a video. Of course they're gonna say that obviously, yeah, people hate it, but that, you know, I saw footage of someone using it. I think it is good that this isn't just an AI LLM who's just talking as your. As your dead grade. And it's not pretending to be that. It is a therapeutic experience and it is an exercise similar in similar. Well, you're wearing VR goggles. Like you see the avatar in a setting and you say goodbye and get some kind of closure as a part of a therapy therapeutic experience. And like there's versions that we already just do this in therapy. Like you already can do these sort of exercises with therapy. This is putting in kind of an avatar over it. I don't feel great about the avatar, but this is certainly better and more thoughtful than just talking to an. Just talking to an LLM. The fact that it's. You are partnering with a therapist who you've already been working with, who already knows you. For people in extreme emotional grief. I can see that they did stress that like this isn't for everybody. This is for people like dealing with. They get extreme emotional grief. And I, you know, ask like, you know, why did you choose, you know, why is this not just an A.I. they're like, well, I mean these people are very traumatized and you actually need a skill.

Ed Zitron (90:08)

I give them, I give them some credit if that's their reaction to it. Yeah, I'm less. I like, I'm not mad at it because if they're very much like, this is very specific. Yeah, I'm all right with that.

Tech Journalist (90:20)

This is my experience at the booth because I went in very, very hostile because I was very hostile and they didn't necessarily win me over. But I understood why the product exists over time more and I was like, yeah, I feel very odd. Not odd. I think digital. I think digital necromancy is bad. Every CES I've been to, I've done some report on digital necromancy. The fact that it's cloning the voice I don't to love. But the product's not for me. Right. It's. I would not want to hear An AI voice of my dead friend. But that is me who is. And I'm, you know, as a Gen Z Canadian, American. I don't want this. For some people who are using. Using this product that might help them in certain settings with an awareness that like, you're. This is, you know, this is an avatar. This is a replica. I'm just talking to a therapist.

Ed Zitron (91:12)

I'm not a therapist. But my view on that is. Is like there are certain things where it's leading you to get to conclusions. And I feel like adding a disembodied digital avatar controlled by a keyboard. I'm like, if this helps someone, brilliant. But it's also just like, that's just. It's adding a layer of something that probably will get in the way of feeling better. Cause it's like change comes from within.

Tech Journalist (91:32)

Yeah. This is the gestalt empty chair technique. That's the therapy technique.

Garrison Davis (91:37)

I want to raise another point. So Hagen Blix was on this machine kills talking about the chap or chat therapists.

Tech Journalist (91:46)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (91:46)

And how the. The, the temptation on the firms that are delivering therapy over chat is to pile more chat windows on a single therapist and to get them to multitask and then multi. Multitask and then offload some. And so I'm not saying this firm is doing it. I'm saying that this is a mode of therapy that is uniquely amenable to speed ups that are anti patient and anti therapist.

Sherlyn Lowe (92:11)

I have also a thought. Right. Which is when I. I was mostly furious about this until you mentioned this was for extreme scenario, extreme cases of grief. And I was like, okay, can imagine if someone is so deep in their grief that they wouldn't respond to anything. But.

Ed Zitron (92:24)

Yeah, you need anything.

Sherlyn Lowe (92:25)

You need anything. But then I think about, like, even myself thinking about going through the process of anyone that I. That has, you know, a friend died in a car accident two years ago. Like if they. The thought of talking to an embodied version of him him and hearing his voice just get me out of my grief is already dubious. But then you have to. I was like, oh. But all kinds of therapy require. There's a little resistance to that sort of grief therapy. Anyway. So I was like, I'm trying to make my peace with that. Then I remember, this is xr. You're gonna have to convince the person who's in extreme grief to put on a headset.

Garrison Davis (92:54)

Yes. Just strap this brick to your face. Stop crying for five seconds and strap this brick.

Tech Journalist (92:57)

Yeah.

Ed Zitron (92:58)

Trap yourself.

Tech Journalist (92:59)

That's thingy. Yeah. This is something that you're gonna. I. I don't think they're getting convinced into doing this. I think it's something that they, that they will, you know, this is an option that they can choose from. And I think also specifically this is not like an extended thing. This isn't something you like go to talk to your friend. It's, it's, it is a. It is to give you like a one time session, one time like good, like, like closure exercise.

Ed Zitron (93:22)

I'm also just like designed for that.

Tech Journalist (93:24)

You also have it for a pet. They also have a, a pet.

Ed Zitron (93:26)

Okay. That makes that now I now fully expect against this because now it's like closure isn't always clean.

Tech Journalist (93:33)

Yes. That's.

Garrison Davis (93:34)

Why are they going to voice the pet?

Sherlyn Lowe (93:36)

No.

Maria Hinojosa (93:36)

Life is messy.

Ed Zitron (93:36)

But also you don't get closure on things. Therapy is about finding. Finding a way through when you.

Garrison Davis (93:42)

It's a gift you give yourself. It's not a thing you get from someone else.

Tech Journalist (93:45)

That's the more like larger, like existential resistance that I have to. This is.

Ed Zitron (93:48)

Hearing the pet thing really feels angry by.

Garrison Davis (93:50)

Meow, meow, meow, meow, meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow.

Ed Zitron (93:53)

No, it's just also like you lost your, your pet. What the fuck does seeing like a 3D cat or dog like?

Garrison Davis (93:59)

I mean, one of Canada's most beloved prime ministers, John Diefenbaker, used to go get advice for running the country from his dog's ghost. What?

Sherlyn Lowe (94:09)

That was dead air there.

Garrison Davis (94:11)

It's true.

Sherlyn Lowe (94:11)

What's the past like when the Cleveland.

Ed Zitron (94:13)

Browns drafted Johnny Banziel based on a homeless person's idea. I love this. Tell me everything.

Garrison Davis (94:18)

That's all I know. We learned it in history. I was forced to. 14 years old. That's all I remember. It's literally the only thing I know about John Tiefen Baker. There's a lot of buildings named after him as well, but he did. Did you learn this do you grew up in Canada?

Tech Journalist (94:32)

I did grow up in Canada.

Garrison Davis (94:32)

Did you learn this in ninth grade?

Tech Journalist (94:34)

No. By then I was already in the States.

Garrison Davis (94:36)

Okay, so you didn't get a full year about just the Canadian Pacific railroad, World War I and John Diefenbaker's dead dog.

Tech Journalist (94:42)

We got a little bit of the railroad, but that's it. Yeah.

Ed Zitron (94:45)

You missed the year of Canadian education around dog ghosts.

Tech Journalist (94:48)

I did. I did. I did miss that one.

Garrison Davis (94:50)

We're gonna put them on the new 50. The dog ghost.

Tech Journalist (94:52)

That's good.

Ed Zitron (94:53)

Had a lot of them. Yeah.

Tech Journalist (94:57)

Supreme Leader Carney will get right on that.

Ed Zitron (94:59)

I just see this stuff and hearing the pet thing, I'm like. Because my. My thought process with this was like, okay, extreme situations.

Tech Journalist (95:07)

But then I'm like, the pet thing, I don't.

Ed Zitron (95:09)

Yeah, no, I hear pet and I'm like, so it's not extreme situation. Because my thought was, okay, if this is very specific.

Maria Hinojosa (95:16)

Specific.

Ed Zitron (95:16)

Like deep in the box of tools. We've tried everything.

Garrison Davis (95:19)

Yeah, okay, we'll help you with your other thing. And also if your favorite flavor of ice cream is sold out at Baskin Robinson. Yeah, yeah, we got a model for that.

Ed Zitron (95:26)

It's also preparing you. I don't know. Some of the most difficult things in therapy for me have been accepting there is no such thing as closure. In some cases, you will never have that.

Tech Journalist (95:34)

The other thing I don't like about the pet thing is that it is. That is a reoccurring feature. You can visit the. Yeah, it's like you create a space more than once.

Sherlyn Lowe (95:43)

I will say now that I'm reading the brochure, it is not just about the grief. I think there's parts of this that sound like they make sense. So the Resolve XR part of it that's talking about the gestalt, empty chair thing, it's also like, not just about grief, but it's about confronting difficult conflict moments. That one I could learn to deal with because whenever I'm dealing with a manipulative talker and I don't know how to respond and I have these emotional reactions, bubble up a bit of practice into dealing with.

Ed Zitron (96:09)

The thing is, you are completely correct. I sound like another LLM there. But these are the soft edges where these people work their ways in, right? It's like, well, there could be a situation where it makes sense. They're not preparing for a situation. If they have, I can revisit my dead dog. They're just like, fuck it. Can I say enough of this?

Garrison Davis (96:27)

It's a structural problem with small batch products, Right? You just want to expand the market.

Sherlyn Lowe (96:31)

I'll also point out that on the brochure, this. You should have said it here. But they are calling the grief part of it good morning with a U. And I'm just like, no, I missed it.

Ed Zitron (96:41)

I love having Good morning.

Garrison Davis (96:44)

That's very good.

Michael Fisher (96:44)

That's.

Garrison Davis (96:45)

That tells me this is a shtick hairdresser's business. Name grade pun.

Maria Hinojosa (96:51)

It's right.

Garrison Davis (96:52)

Curl up and die. Good morning.

Ed Zitron (96:54)

Like a bike shop called Bike Curious. Like, Jesus fucking Price.

Sherlyn Lowe (96:58)

That to me is bad.

Ed Zitron (96:59)

That's the thing I'm really trying here, folks. I'm trying to find some stuff. I'm trying to look not cynically about it.

Tech Journalist (97:06)

Well, there's a bajillion AI cooking products for.

Ed Zitron (97:10)

I did see. We saw one which was just a giant box.

Tech Journalist (97:13)

No, they're all boxes and things. You still have to do all the prep work yourself. You still have to assemble the ingredients. In most cases, it's an oven. It's a quote unquote smart oven. Right. That's all these AI cooking products that take the effort out of cooking. Cooking. You're like, well, yeah, that's just putting something in the oven. Like, right. It's still to do a lot of work.

Garrison Davis (97:32)

It's gonna have hoses that are just full of congealed schmutz.

Tech Journalist (97:34)

Oh, yeah.

Ed Zitron (97:35)

At some point, like three days in, it's gonna just be congealed.

Tech Journalist (97:39)

Cleaning is gonna be a nightmare. It's easier just to cook. Like, it's like.

Sherlyn Lowe (97:43)

It reminds me of those videos where like the, the influencers going, these are my simple meals. No, cook simple meals. Step one, cut some garlic. And it's just like, no, no, no, you're cooking.

Tech Journalist (97:52)

Yeah, yeah, no, like this, like you put. Put a piece of cardboard in the microwave. Like, that's, that's going to be more efficient if you really want to live a lifestyle where you don't cook.

Ed Zitron (98:00)

Hey, enough about British cooking.

Garrison Davis (98:02)

I just, I just learned about, from. From Garbage Ryan about kitchen cells, which is the Reddit foreign for incels who cook elaborate meals and then feel bad about themselves.

Tech Journalist (98:14)

That's fun.

Garrison Davis (98:15)

Yeah.

Tech Journalist (98:15)

Good for them.

Sherlyn Lowe (98:16)

Yeah, that's a better name than Good Morning Kitchen from someone else.

Ed Zitron (98:21)

So that was, that was a bitchy thing to say.

Michael Fisher (98:23)

But no, I.

Ed Zitron (98:23)

Wait, so these people are like incels who are just. They're like, I'm like a.

Garrison Davis (98:27)

So the two varieties are very elaborate. Meal I cooked with a caption that is just like, I want to die. Or like someone who's literally microwaved a piece of cardboard and the caption is, I'm a piece of shit.

Tech Journalist (98:38)

That's funny.

Maria Hinojosa (98:38)

That's.

Ed Zitron (98:39)

See, that second one is really funny. I mean, actually, no, the idea of doing like a five course tasting meat menu and doing that is actually really good.

Sherlyn Lowe (98:46)

No, that's.

Tech Journalist (98:46)

That's pretty. That's pretty. That's.

Sherlyn Lowe (98:47)

That's.

Ed Zitron (98:48)

But are they serious or is this.

Garrison Davis (98:50)

So this was the thing Garbage Ryan said is. He wasn't sure to what extent it was a bit. He thinks for some of them it's a Bit probably a mix. It's not.

Ed Zitron (98:56)

Yeah, it's like R slash male living space.

Garrison Davis (98:58)

Like everything to do with incel. Yeah, like, I love those. Male living space.

Ed Zitron (99:01)

I love those where it's just like a TV, a like a Hisense TV on top of the box that the Hisense TV came in and like an Apple TV and a PlayStation 5 with like bent casual cause like straight out the box plugs. I love that.

Garrison Davis (99:17)

My favorite one was the guy who bought a church and he had a bed and a little table in a church and his caption was, any suggestions for what else to do with this room?

Sherlyn Lowe (99:32)

Do an exorcism.

Ed Zitron (99:33)

I mean, the thing you're gonna do in six months involving a new. Sorry, like, why did you buy a church? There is this guy just.

Garrison Davis (99:42)

Scalzi bought a church. They're cheap. Religion is failing in America.

Ed Zitron (99:46)

I don't know if that's good or bad. Now, I did see this guy on Instagram that I've been following for like a while where he bought like a house in an eastern European country for 5,000 Euro. And he has put so much money into it just making it and he's actually got like walls now. He's like, day 5,000 to buy my €5,000 house. My friend could joke came down and it's just like this Eastern European guy who you could shoot with a gun and it would just bounce the fuck off.

Garrison Davis (100:12)

Like, yeah, yeah.

Ed Zitron (100:13)

It's all of these guys who are just like actual work and stiffs who are like, this is going to get me promo because they all make money off of it. Which is cool actually. Actually, in a weird way, likely helps the local economy. But it is funny watching just the American guys being like, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck. Infrastructure doesn't work some places. Yeah. Well, as we wrap up this half an hour section, I'm going to advertise something now. It's called Stuff. Bu buyer. Go to stuffbuyer biz. And whatever you hear next, ignore that URL. That's not where stuffbuyer Biz is where you're gonna buy your next products.

Maria Hinojosa (100:46)

Thank you.

Garrison Davis (100:46)

Please.

Maria Hinojosa (100:55)

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Ed Zitron (101:27)

Hey everyone, it's Ed Helms and I'm Cal Penn and we are the hosts of Ears, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.

Michael Fisher (101:35)

This week on the podcast, I am talking to film and TV critic, radio.

Ed Zitron (101:40)

And podcast host and Harry Potter super.

Michael Fisher (101:43)

Fan Rhianna Dillon to discuss Audible's full cast adaptation of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. What moments in this audiobook capture the feeling of the magical world best for you or or just stood out the most?

Maria Hinojosa (101:59)

I always loved reading about the Quidditch matches and I think the audio really gets it because it just plunges you right into the stands. You have the crowd sounds like all around you is surround sound, especially if you're listening in headphones.

Ed Zitron (102:15)

Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart.

Michael Fisher (102:18)

Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or.

Garrison Davis (102:21)

Wherever you get your podcasts.

Maria Hinojosa (102:29)

Hey, I'm Kelly and some of you may know me as Laura Winslow. And I'm Telma, also known as Aunt Rachel. If those names ring a bell, then you probably are familiar with the show that we were both on back in the 90s called Family Matters. Kelly and I have done a lot of things and played a lot of roles over the years, but both of us are just so proud to have been part of Family Family Matters. Did you know that we are one of the longest running sitcoms with a black cast? When we were making the show, there were so many moments filled with joy and laughter and cut up that I will never forget. Oh, girl, you got that right. The look that you all give me is so black. All black people know about the look. On each episode of welcome to the Family, we'll share personal reflections about making the show. Yeah, we'll even bring in part of the cast and some other special guests to join in the fun and spill some tea. Listen to welcome to the Family with Telma and Kelly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Maria Hinojosa, host of Latino usa. Venezuelans around the world are celebrating the takedown of former President Maduro. But inside the country, there is fear and silence. And in the United States, people are concerned about Donald Trump's rogue tactics. Listen to Latino usa, the fall of Maduro and the rise of an unconstrained Trump. That's on your iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Ed Zitron (104:01)

I am being Gangstalked welcome back to Better Offline. I'm at Zitron and we have one.

Tech Journalist (104:05)

Of crap with us.

Ed Zitron (104:06)

Of course. Journalist, activist, and of course, I was.

Sherlyn Lowe (104:10)

Author.

Ed Zitron (104:11)

Yeah, author. We're keeping it. It's fine. Author Cory Doctorow. Hello. I'm so sorry.

Garrison Davis (104:15)

That's okay.

Ed Zitron (104:16)

Garrison Davis. If it could happen here.

Tech Journalist (104:18)

There's been a white van outside this hotel the entire time.

Ed Zitron (104:21)

Yeah. And they're only looking for me. Sherlyn Lowe of Engadget. And we're gonna actually start with some Engadget things.

Maria Hinojosa (104:27)

Oh, no.

Ed Zitron (104:28)

What are Engadgets Best of ces? Like, what was the stuff that Engadget actually liked?

Sherlyn Lowe (104:31)

I don't know if you'll hate us for this because we talked earlier. In the episode of this we as a team awarded the Lego Smart Play, Smart Break system.

Ed Zitron (104:39)

Totally fine.

Sherlyn Lowe (104:40)

The best in show. It was a show of hands type of votement. By the time we had gotten around to the last one and, like, we were doing ranked choice voting too. So, like, we had to go around everyone. We were ready to. I know. Thank you. We were. We've been progressive for a very long time. We. We were dedicated. We're like, however long this takes to find the best in show, we're going to stay all through the night. And then we got through the first few candidates and then we got to Lego and then. And then, like, more than half. Way more than half hands went up and we're like, oh, well, good thing we don't need to stay the rest of the night then. It's quite obvious some quick math was done. So anyway, I think the Engadget's Best of CES Awards are gonna reflect Engadget's choice, Engadget's taste.

Ed Zitron (105:20)

That's good, right?

Sherlyn Lowe (105:21)

I'm glad. I think it shows that we're a bunch of childish kids, nerds and that sort of thing. And I like that about my team. And also then we had other winners. Like, you'll see our list of winners include things like TVs, laptops, concept devices.

Tech Journalist (105:37)

Gotta look at this.

Ed Zitron (105:37)

Throne toilet. Mounted health track.

Sherlyn Lowe (105:39)

That's not an award.

Garrison Davis (105:41)

To be clear.

Sherlyn Lowe (105:41)

That's the weirdest gadgets.

Ed Zitron (105:43)

That's the way. All the coolest techniques.

Garrison Davis (105:45)

I saw ta Rown and I'm like, is it a shuriken?

Sherlyn Lowe (105:49)

Ed, I love that. I love that you got confused because that's very good feedback for the team that I've been trying to fight with about the headlines.

Ed Zitron (105:54)

Yeah, that completely confused. Confused me because the measurer.

Sherlyn Lowe (105:57)

Yeah, put it. I'm just going to show you've only.

Ed Zitron (105:59)

Been drinking Diet Cokes for seven years.

Sherlyn Lowe (106:02)

That will tell you. No, we did not give that.

Ed Zitron (106:04)

Okay, so your best of ces. I will stop trying to anticipate your denim on.

Sherlyn Lowe (106:08)

Ooh. Okay.

Maria Hinojosa (106:10)

Our.

Sherlyn Lowe (106:10)

I mean, I could. I do that, too. Our best of CES includes, like, the LG wallpaper TV that was shown this year. Very classic CES type of product.

Tech Journalist (106:17)

We got what's good about it.

Sherlyn Lowe (106:18)

Yeah, it's very thin. Very impressive. It just lost that sound. Bar bass. That used to be what it came out. Out of. And then there's no cables except for the power cord because it's got the wireless control center that you.

Ed Zitron (106:29)

Oh, is that the brick? That is kind of.

Sherlyn Lowe (106:31)

Yeah, the little. Yeah, you could tuck it away.

Ed Zitron (106:33)

Low latency.

Maria Hinojosa (106:34)

Yeah, exactly.

Ed Zitron (106:34)

Because I saw that and I was kind of like, I love that. It's, like, way. It's like, super expensive, out of the range of most people, but it. It's cool tech. And also. So wait, does the thing go on? It plugs in the wall still.

Sherlyn Lowe (106:44)

There's still a power cord for the.

Ed Zitron (106:46)

TV itself, but HDMI and such comes.

Sherlyn Lowe (106:48)

Out in the wireless app.

Ed Zitron (106:50)

You get the price on the wallpaper one, or have they not said it yet?

Sherlyn Lowe (106:54)

I have had so many numbers.

Garrison Davis (106:55)

That's okay.

Tech Journalist (106:56)

Don't worry about it.

Garrison Davis (106:57)

And do they do the surveillance that is endemic to smart TVs, or is it, like, dumb TV when it comes to sending information about what you're watching?

Sherlyn Lowe (107:05)

Yeah, I don't know that either. I had our TV experts cover it.

Garrison Davis (107:08)

I just know that, I mean, consumer union, every time they look at TVs, they're like, oh, very good one for.

Sherlyn Lowe (107:12)

Us to look into the stuff like.

Tech Journalist (107:14)

The wallpaper TV and the transparent T TV aren't even really marketed towards most, like, homes. Like, they're. They're kind of for, like, hotel lobbies or for, like, wallpaper tv.

Ed Zitron (107:23)

Feels more like business.

Sherlyn Lowe (107:24)

Could be one day.

Ed Zitron (107:25)

It feels like more like something eventually a person might buy, rather than the transparent one, which. You know what? Keep that chicken.

Maria Hinojosa (107:31)

Like.

Ed Zitron (107:31)

Yeah, bring that weird with you. I love that.

Sherlyn Lowe (107:33)

I love it. Speaking of weird, Lenovo, we. This year, we're like, we really like this thing. We want to give it an award. Let's think about, like, which Lenovo. The Lens Lenovo Legion Pro 7i rollable concept.

Ed Zitron (107:44)

Is that the one that kind of rolls out.

Sherlyn Lowe (107:46)

It's a gaming laptop, but its screen can expand by rolling out into, like, 23.8 inches of space. And so you can stop in between at 21.5 inches or so. So you get like different aspect ratios when you're gaming and you just want to like drill in or you want to have discord show up on the ride or whatever.

Tech Journalist (108:02)

That's pretty.

Ed Zitron (108:02)

So you can display and the OS.

Garrison Davis (108:03)

Knows to what extent you've unrolled it.

Sherlyn Lowe (108:06)

And that it's always been the trick. Right. Not understanding how to place these items on the screen. Screen. But it's. It's gotten there. That's super interesting.

Ed Zitron (108:12)

And that's just the concept though, for now.

Sherlyn Lowe (108:14)

Right? It's just a concept.

Ed Zitron (108:15)

But they. Last year they had a concept with the swivel, which ended up being real, actually.

Sherlyn Lowe (108:19)

The auto twist, they're calling it. Yes.

Garrison Davis (108:21)

But it's a laptop.

Sherlyn Lowe (108:22)

Yeah, it's a gaming laptop.

Garrison Davis (108:23)

So this is like butterfly keyboard but butterfly screen.

Ed Zitron (108:26)

But it like slowly rolls out.

Sherlyn Lowe (108:28)

Yeah, it rolls out. It's not like a fold out.

Garrison Davis (108:29)

Oh, you press a button and it goes.

Ed Zitron (108:31)

Yeah, yeah.

Garrison Davis (108:32)

Oh, my God.

Sherlyn Lowe (108:33)

I need to show you a video.

Garrison Davis (108:34)

You don't unroll it, like.

Sherlyn Lowe (108:35)

No, not by.

Maria Hinojosa (108:35)

By hand.

Garrison Davis (108:36)

Yeah.

Sherlyn Lowe (108:36)

Okay.

Ed Zitron (108:37)

Yeah, it's. I like that. I also think that we're approaching the point where we're limited by form factors. So that is cool.

Maria Hinojosa (108:43)

Yes.

Ed Zitron (108:44)

I hope they're able to do it in anything approaching affordability.

Maria Hinojosa (108:48)

Right.

Sherlyn Lowe (108:48)

I know that's not.

Ed Zitron (108:49)

Same time, what like a decade we've talked about, like rollable screens, bendable screens. It's nice to see that in a consumer tech housing.

Sherlyn Lowe (108:56)

And not janky.

Ed Zitron (108:57)

And not janky.

Garrison Davis (108:58)

Yeah, sure.

Ed Zitron (108:58)

It had a little wobble like Robert Evans mentioned. It has a little bubble. But I'm of kind. Kind of like it's a concept. It's a concept concept. I've seen for a concept. You're not talking about selling it. I kind of like it. But what else you got on the list?

Sherlyn Lowe (109:10)

I want to shout out the IXI Autofocus adaptive eyewear. So they're not officially at cs. I think they parachuted. They dropped in. They were like, let's take some meetings. These are. You know how multifocal bifocal glasses right now are very clunky.

Ed Zitron (109:24)

I don't know that. I don't know that.

Sherlyn Lowe (109:25)

So some people might know, but they get very clunky and very chunky because you have like just. The technology isn't there yet.

Ed Zitron (109:31)

I have a stupid question. Bifocal. What is like, so the top half.

Sherlyn Lowe (109:34)

So some people have both nearsighted and farsighted as you age. So you. One prescription doesn't cut it. You. You need one like. And sometimes they cut your lens so that the top half is for your long sided and the bottom half is.

Maria Hinojosa (109:45)

For you to look.

Garrison Davis (109:46)

You have to look up. That's what I have in this lens. So this and it's mine is progressive, so it's not a sharp line. It gets more magnified the further down it goes.

Ed Zitron (109:56)

Oh, okay.

Sherlyn Lowe (109:56)

So those are like multifocal. So IXI has technology. I'm very curious what you think about this, Corey, where it's using a mix of like LEDs around the lens to detect your gaze and where you're looking and then a liquid crystal lens layer that changes the prescription of the lens. So wherever you're looking at something, it's just detecting the right prescription and just one working the way it should.

Ed Zitron (110:23)

Or was there a way to test it?

Sherlyn Lowe (110:25)

See a demo. Our Matt Smith took a demo and he was impressed. We've already interviewed IXI in September. We, we've known this tech was coming, but now they're at CES with a working demo.

Ed Zitron (110:35)

I love that.

Garrison Davis (110:35)

So what I would want to know is like, so this sounds amazing. I had cataract surgery last year.

Maria Hinojosa (110:39)

Okay.

Garrison Davis (110:40)

And I got what's called. Oh God, I can't monofocus. So this eye is focused at monovision rather. This eye is focused at 23 inches. This eye is focused at 25ft. My brain switches between them depending on what I'm looking at. And then this is the only corrective region in my glasses. It's on the distance eye and it's a close up region so that if I'm reading on this side, I don't have to turn my head.

Maria Hinojosa (111:02)

Right.

Garrison Davis (111:02)

But I can get like. I just went skiing without my glasses on for the first time in my life. Is fucking amazing.

Sherlyn Lowe (111:07)

Oh, wow.

Garrison Davis (111:07)

No fog, nothing. Like just so great scuba diving. Just terrific. The thing I'd be worried about as a man who has dropped his glasses 14 million times is what happens when these things fall off your face.

Sherlyn Lowe (111:21)

Well, I don't know yet. I think it has to depend on who they team up with on the frames as well and how they build these into retail ready products. I don't have all the details yet because it was a late entrant to our CES Awards discussions.

Garrison Davis (111:33)

It's an amazing idea, but also the fact that they made it work is incredible.

Ed Zitron (111:37)

And is there anything more consumer tech than that?

Sherlyn Lowe (111:40)

Right, right. Glasses. And also one more thing. Spectacle technology. Eyeglasses technology hasn't changed. Change has been stagnant. Since the 1950s. So for something like this to happen, it'd be cool. And also imagine getting like one pair of lenses that you theoretically, hypothetically, don't need to keep changing as your eye worsen or changes that could be sustainable, could be just for your cost, for your budget. That would be great too. So I just think there's so much potential. We were so excited.

Ed Zitron (112:07)

Really cool.

Tech Journalist (112:08)

Multiple people could wear the glasses, I guess.

Sherlyn Lowe (112:10)

Could be, I can't say because I think for them, them, they, they can't say things. The FDA needs to.

Garrison Davis (112:16)

I'd love to know, like, can you put it in. I'm painting D and D Minis mode and have it ratchet up like a macro lens.

Maria Hinojosa (112:21)

Yeah.

Sherlyn Lowe (112:22)

Hypothetically. Why not?

Garrison Davis (112:24)

You know, my grandfather was a watchmaker and he wore a jeweler's loop. Full professional life. And he had, you know, Popeye squint. Right. Like, if you could just be like, no, I'm on the job now. I'm fixing a watch movement and it just suddenly zooms up, you know. Yeah, that'd be pretty dope.

Sherlyn Lowe (112:38)

It's so cool. That's just really cool technology. So we were very glad, glad we were able to see it here. And then we, you know, we talked about the Wheel move earlier in the episode. We gave the Wheel move an award. We just didn't see enough sustainable slash transport related technologies to have something for those categories. You literally just, there were, there were things, they just went good.

Ed Zitron (112:58)

No, no, I mean, you didn't have anything you could give an award to.

Tech Journalist (113:01)

I mean, all those personal helicopters I think could serve a great public service.

Ed Zitron (113:04)

Are there personal helicopters here?

Tech Journalist (113:05)

Oh, yeah.

Sherlyn Lowe (113:06)

You see regular Richter.

Tech Journalist (113:07)

Yes.

Sherlyn Lowe (113:08)

So Richter is from last year.

Tech Journalist (113:09)

Oh, I, I, I, I talk, I talked with Richter last year. There's, there was, I saw two personal helicopters this year. One of them is Richter. Yeah, I think, I think we should be giving, giving those out to me? No, not to you. You're not, you're not rich enough. I think we should be giving the personal helicopters to like maybe the, the top, like 05% of people. Everyone should have free.

Garrison Davis (113:30)

In a room with whirling blades on the ceiling. Free.

Tech Journalist (113:32)

No, I think every, they should all. We should all as a, as a victory trophy for. You won, you won, you won society.

Sherlyn Lowe (113:38)

Instead of the Nobel Peace Prize here.

Tech Journalist (113:39)

We'Re going to give you this personal helicopter. It's going to work great.

Ed Zitron (113:43)

It'll be fine until they try it as much as you want.

Garrison Davis (113:47)

That pairs very nicely with this thing we saw.

Ed Zitron (113:49)

Oh, God.

Garrison Davis (113:50)

We Saw a personal airbag for old people worried about breaking their hips.

Ed Zitron (113:54)

And it sounds, when you fall. Yeah, it sounds like a good idea until you learn the details.

Garrison Davis (113:59)

While the business, business model, yes. So the business model is. So if you fall over, they, they call, they call the emergency services. Yeah, that's a $40 a month subscription which is like.

Ed Zitron (114:08)

And I said to the guy, like, is Twilio that expensive? Because like that's how you're paying. Like, like tiny amounts of money for one text.

Tech Journalist (114:16)

There's so many fall detection cards this year.

Ed Zitron (114:19)

Like, it's like there's no way in.

Garrison Davis (114:21)

Hell and you can't repack the airbag after you use it. So it's, it's use. You get 400, $800 for two airbags.

Ed Zitron (114:29)

What? And 40 bucks a month. Otherwise all it does is the airbag thing.

Sherlyn Lowe (114:33)

Why are you paying?

Tech Journalist (114:34)

They're trying to scam.

Ed Zitron (114:35)

It's a scam. Trying to scam it for Medicare.

Garrison Davis (114:38)

They were. Well, yeah, they were trying to get Medicare approval. I have to say as a man who's also had a hip replacement, but two hip replacements and was the youngest person on the ward when I had it done that like, you know, $40 a month subscription from an 80 year old does not generate that much revenue.

Engadget Host (114:53)

You.

Garrison Davis (114:53)

Over, over time. How many months are you going to be?

Ed Zitron (114:58)

40 bucks? You man, it's a Twilio thing.

Garrison Davis (115:01)

That's all.

Ed Zitron (115:02)

You're just paying Twilio also.

Sherlyn Lowe (115:04)

Then wouldn't you want to like make sure the airbag is repackable? Because then you have a.

Garrison Davis (115:09)

We don't know if it's going to work. If the old person with the arthritis repacks it, then we're worried that they'll break a hip.

Sherlyn Lowe (115:15)

Well, but then, then they stop paying the $40 a month once they, once they use them.

Garrison Davis (115:19)

But. Well, their argument is if you get saved from breaking a hip twice in a row, you'll happily buy another set of airbags.

Tech Journalist (115:25)

That, that, that may be true.

Garrison Davis (115:26)

Yeah.

Ed Zitron (115:27)

But it's just, I'm like, the more I think about it, it's like, oh yeah, it's 40 bucks a month for the texts. Which cost like a tenth of a cent.

Tech Journalist (115:34)

Yeah.

Ed Zitron (115:35)

Which you will also only have happen ideally twice.

Garrison Davis (115:38)

Twice in the life of the product.

Ed Zitron (115:40)

Right. Like ideally never. But if you use them, this will cost them 50.

Garrison Davis (115:43)

So if you own it for 10 years.

Maria Hinojosa (115:46)

Right.

Garrison Davis (115:46)

Yeah.

Sherlyn Lowe (115:46)

What are you actually paying for?

Garrison Davis (115:47)

You have paid several thousand four hundred and eighty baht, most to tax.

Sherlyn Lowe (115:51)

What was upfront cost again?

Garrison Davis (115:53)

Eight Hundred bucks for eight hundred and.

Sherlyn Lowe (115:54)

Then forty a month.

Ed Zitron (115:55)

That's right. That's right. And he was like, we're working. There's no Medicare code for this yet. We're working on it.

Tech Journalist (116:01)

I'm sure.

Ed Zitron (116:02)

I'm sure that's all they're working on.

Garrison Davis (116:04)

I could see the Medicare case for it, right? If you're starting to get inner ear problems or if you're old and brittle.

Ed Zitron (116:09)

Or whatever you balance, I can see the point.

Garrison Davis (116:11)

I can see why Medicare would buy.

Ed Zitron (116:13)

You a set of airbags, just not the fucking subscription. Fuck you, human. Like, make the subscription five bucks a month, like that. I. Even then, you're like, you're still making insane margin.

Garrison Davis (116:22)

My guess, these things, they're manufacturing them in small runs. It's costing them more than 800 bucks that they're losing money on the 800 bucks. And they're like, this is how we will make a profit, is we'll sell a loss leader and we'll.

Ed Zitron (116:34)

Sounds like a bad business to me.

Garrison Davis (116:36)

It does. Well, it sounds like a case for, like, public investment in medical technology.

Ed Zitron (116:40)

Whoa, whoa.

Sherlyn Lowe (116:41)

What an.

Ed Zitron (116:43)

We need more knife drones.

Garrison Davis (116:45)

Very true.

Ed Zitron (116:45)

We need.

Garrison Davis (116:46)

Is that where we're calling the person a helicopter now?

Tech Journalist (116:50)

Hey, Ideal. In a perfect world.

Ed Zitron (116:51)

No, the personal helicopters are very safe. And you're very rich and you need one.

Garrison Davis (116:56)

Yes.

Ed Zitron (116:57)

Try them out. You don't need training. There's an app for that.

Tech Journalist (117:01)

No, you're smart, you're rich, and look.

Sherlyn Lowe (117:03)

At AGI run it just.

Tech Journalist (117:05)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Garrison Davis (117:06)

We've built an obstacle course for it. You can fly it over, like, lava and acid and broken glass and you'll be fine.

Ed Zitron (117:13)

You have the lathe of heaven. You'll be the mandate of heaven even. Sorry.

Garrison Davis (117:16)

I like the lathe of heaven.

Ed Zitron (117:17)

The lathe of heaven.

Garrison Davis (117:18)

My brain.

Ed Zitron (117:19)

Just like. What words do you need? I don't fucking know.

Garrison Davis (117:21)

We've just lathed that into existence. That's Le Guin, the Lathe of Heaven.

Ed Zitron (117:24)

There we go. Yes. Thank you. Book four, Too Much Farming in Earth Sea. Yeah, it's. I'm actually a little sad you don't have more. I'm not saying this is a criticism.

Sherlyn Lowe (117:34)

But it's like, even last year in those categories, right?

Ed Zitron (117:36)

Yeah, but even last year it felt like there was more. Yucks.

Sherlyn Lowe (117:40)

There was more stuff we could look at. Yeah, exactly.

Tech Journalist (117:42)

More square footage is taken up by the LLM rappers and by just. And by robotics and sometimes combined. Sometimes it's a robot.

Maria Hinojosa (117:50)

Both?

Ed Zitron (117:50)

Why not both?

Tech Journalist (117:51)

That is an LLM rapper.

Sherlyn Lowe (117:52)

Did you see the Project Ava thing by Razer.

Ed Zitron (117:54)

Yeah. We've talked about the wifetube a lot.

Tech Journalist (117:56)

I haven't. I've been waiting to see the Project Ava thing. I have. I have not seen it yet.

Ed Zitron (118:00)

It's this tube with it with a hentai wife. Okay. And you talk to the hentai.

Tech Journalist (118:04)

It's like Oscar in there or something.

Sherlyn Lowe (118:07)

I. I don't know the name of the. Oh, Kira, I guess, is the name of project.

Ed Zitron (118:11)

It's Project Diva. Kira is apparently some anime thing. And then you can have a guy with tattoos or you can have a woman in a business suit.

Tech Journalist (118:20)

Got it.

Ed Zitron (118:20)

It's like. Yeah. And it's just like, I feel like if you try. Not that they're selling it concept. If you try and buy one, they should put you on a list.

Tech Journalist (118:28)

No, I did. I did walk by that. That really gross sex robot in. I had a hard time looking at it. Like, I like walked up to this side and I tried looking at its hands and it just looked like a corpse.

Ed Zitron (118:43)

Let's start simple. What is this?

Tech Journalist (118:45)

This is a robot that looks kind.

Ed Zitron (118:48)

Of like a woman and you mean a Yumenous.

Garrison Davis (118:50)

So we're talking real doll style. Yes. Okay.

Tech Journalist (118:53)

And allegedly this is something that you can have intercourse with. And I walked up to the side and it has a very realistic looking skin texture, but its head moves like a dis. Like an old Disney animatronic. And it has like an LLM that's six Trying to talk and move its mouth. And I stood there for about 10 seconds and I had to leave. I walked around the corner and they had the little AI avatar section, which wasn't working because of the WI fi. Nice. But it's like the AI avatar that you can talk to, which is synced to the little jack off robot. So you can talk to the AI and then it can jack you off.

Garrison Davis (119:33)

That is a hell of a goon cave accessory.

Tech Journalist (119:36)

Yeah, well, and also the jack off robot. This company's been around since 2014. Well, no, this is still the Lovesense Love and Booth and they've been around for a while. It did not look that good, but. Yes, but it connects to games as well. It connects to online gaming, so it really is.

Ed Zitron (119:56)

You ever want to fuck Tetris?

Tech Journalist (119:58)

Well, you know, if they can connect that.

Garrison Davis (120:01)

They have been trying to find a way into making the Tetris movie for years.

Ed Zitron (120:06)

I thought you were going to be like, they've been trying to fuck Tetris for years.

Maria Hinojosa (120:09)

Never worked.

Tech Journalist (120:09)

Well, now you.

Garrison Davis (120:10)

This is the plot of the Tetris movie.

Tech Journalist (120:12)

Finally, if they can connect it to like Final Fantasy 7 Remake and have. And, and have Cloud, then maybe they could have a real product on their hands.

Ed Zitron (120:19)

Well, maybe they should do that because Cloud has a wonderful cross dressing section. And also Cloud completely autistic and no, not horny at all.

Tech Journalist (120:26)

No.

Ed Zitron (120:26)

I think that whole game is him trying to avoid having sex.

Tech Journalist (120:28)

I think, I think you, I think you would be. Would be a great addition.

Ed Zitron (120:31)

This is so like. But like I'm not going to judge him for the sex, but whatever. But it's also just like the idea that you looked at it and immediately faced revulsion.

Tech Journalist (120:39)

It made me feel. And not in like a. Not in just like a Christian. More.

Ed Zitron (120:42)

Not in a judgment way.

Tech Journalist (120:43)

More. Mostly. Well, a little bit. But most. Mostly in like an uncanny Valley way of like if I was engaged in this thing, it would feel kind of like necrophilia.

Ed Zitron (120:55)

Oh God. And realistic skin is not a phrase that I like saying.

Tech Journalist (120:59)

I know like sex dolls have been a thing for a while, but.

Garrison Davis (121:01)

Yes.

Sherlyn Lowe (121:01)

It's just the AI side of.

Tech Journalist (121:02)

It's just the AI thing.

Sherlyn Lowe (121:04)

Yeah.

Tech Journalist (121:04)

Which, which but for me that increases the uncanny valley. If it's just a limp object, then that is a necrophilia thing. But it's simple.

Ed Zitron (121:11)

Yeah.

Maria Hinojosa (121:11)

You just.

Tech Journalist (121:12)

The fact that it's trying to kind of behave human I think makes. Makes more. Makes that reaction that makes that negative uncanny Valley reaction a bit stronger.

Ed Zitron (121:20)

Very strange. And also they put them in odd places. It sounds like they don't have a. Do they have a sex pavilion here?

Sherlyn Lowe (121:27)

No, not at.

Tech Journalist (121:28)

It's in like a. The health tech section.

Garrison Davis (121:31)

Notoriously. Right. There was a best in show that was rescinded for us.

Ed Zitron (121:35)

Yeah. Bustin show.

Garrison Davis (121:37)

Yeah. For a woman sex toy.

Sherlyn Lowe (121:38)

That was L. Not Lioness. It was Laura de Carlo.

Garrison Davis (121:41)

That's it.

Sherlyn Lowe (121:42)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (121:42)

And. And so they've had this love hate relationship. I mean when I was coming 20 some years ago, this was.

Sherlyn Lowe (121:47)

Oh, my blog was always a thing.

Maria Hinojosa (121:49)

Well.

Garrison Davis (121:50)

And it was being held at the same time as the adult show.

Sherlyn Lowe (121:52)

Well, Avian. Yeah.

Garrison Davis (121:53)

And so people would. There would be this kind of crossover and you could go to the parties sometimes at AVN and stuff. You had to see.

Sherlyn Lowe (121:59)

I had to walk past some of the AVN like expo areas and the booths to get to a Lenovo briefing one time.

Garrison Davis (122:04)

Wow.

Tech Journalist (122:05)

That rules.

Sherlyn Lowe (122:06)

It was fun.

Tech Journalist (122:07)

I'm so sad. I'm so sad I missed it.

Ed Zitron (122:09)

I like the idea that they sort of. These stayed kind of like tech executives having to walk past their ass blaster 5000 or what have you people do with their bums is fine. No, it's just very strange to have it like sticking in the middle of like the various health tracking ll. Was it powered by any chance?

Sherlyn Lowe (122:26)

It says AI powered.

Tech Journalist (122:27)

Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, absolutely.

Ed Zitron (122:28)

Was it AI or LLM powered?

Tech Journalist (122:30)

Because it's an ll. I mean, at least like the anime one was more interactable, even though Project Ava was.

Ed Zitron (122:37)

Yeah, I meant the sex bot.

Tech Journalist (122:38)

No, I'm talking about that. Yeah, because it has the AI avatar hooked up to the jacking off machine and. Yeah, it is.

Ed Zitron (122:46)

It is.

Sherlyn Lowe (122:47)

You've got this.

Garrison Davis (122:48)

So this is like in the NES where you had the robot that would pick up those spinning top and it would match the action on the screen. So you had a physical robot, you had a virtual robot. It's just like the original nes.

Tech Journalist (122:58)

Yeah, basically with Cuck Hunt and it's like. It's like. It's like right next to like three like smartwatch booths.

Ed Zitron (123:05)

That was the thing I was saying. That's exactly. It's like you've got the boner paying.

Garrison Davis (123:10)

For the smartwatch booth and showing up. Boss, I'm. I'm really sorry you have to stare.

Tech Journalist (123:16)

At this all the.

Ed Zitron (123:17)

You need to find us. Yeah, we're right by the bonemax.

Garrison Davis (123:20)

The CMO really wants pictures of the booth frontage before we tear down. Can you make sure you get a picture of this? Try not to get the fuck bot. Yeah, the shot.

Sherlyn Lowe (123:30)

That's. But to your point, Corey, the CTA has struggled with what it wants to do with this sex technology because we know that with everything, sex sells, right? And sex tech will like advance faster than any other kinds of tech. Forget about people with accessibility needs. Right? So the CTA knows it needs to cover up some space, but it won't give you a dedicated booth because it somehow wants to be family friendly.

Tech Journalist (123:51)

Yeah, it's so ridiculous for all of the kids attending.

Sherlyn Lowe (123:54)

Well, now we've turned into basically the like games fest or the toy fest that's in New York because of all the.

Ed Zitron (124:00)

I wish. No, I will push back.

Sherlyn Lowe (124:02)

I agree with you.

Ed Zitron (124:03)

There's not enough.

Sherlyn Lowe (124:04)

If you want to make this, we need more fun.

Ed Zitron (124:05)

The goofy dipshit show.

Sherlyn Lowe (124:07)

It should be.

Ed Zitron (124:07)

I would love to. I would love to see some useless crap that's just kind of funny.

Garrison Davis (124:11)

But that's the Internet International pavilions, because they are like the country of Turkey sponsors 20 entrepreneurs to show up. They're each weirder than the last. A lot of them are really delightful.

Ed Zitron (124:21)

Those international Flowers, to give them credit, were not toys. They were like, we made a photonic cell. We made a solar panel thing. We made specific software for this, that and the other, which is awesome. And those people rock. Not fun to talk about on a podcast, but very funny to look at and be like, oh, cool, someone's used to useful here. And then the rest is just stuff.

Sherlyn Lowe (124:42)

It is I.

Ed Zitron (124:42)

And the listeners are already like, oh, it's hours of just saying there's nothing here. You come to this and you do a podcast. But it's just frustrating because I love a dudette. Like, having Michael on to show us the clicks was nice because it was.

Sherlyn Lowe (124:56)

A thingy and it was so cool, actually.

Ed Zitron (124:58)

And also I really do like it and I love Michael. And if it was bad, I would have been in a real. If it was like, actually, I would have genuinely only been sad because I would have had to find a way to trash it without.

Sherlyn Lowe (125:08)

I did avoid him for a year after trying the first clicks keyboard.

Tech Journalist (125:11)

Oh, yeah, Clix clicks was that show.

Ed Zitron (125:16)

Yeah.

Tech Journalist (125:16)

Showstoppers again this year.

Ed Zitron (125:17)

Yeah, we just had Michael on and we like the clicks thing. Personally, the case, not for me, but nevertheless, it's like, at least you fucking tried. And the other thing that pisses me off is Clix proves that other people could just. Because Android can fit into all sorts sure things. You could be trying all sorts of weird smartphone. You could have weird like a tube smartphone. You got all kinds of tubes at this one when we have a smartphone tube. But no, it's like, how do we charge you for using the chat GPT API?

Garrison Davis (125:47)

I mean, there was a time where you go to like Guangzhou and you go to the big mall and there'd be the phone that was shaped like a Marlboro package and there.

Sherlyn Lowe (125:53)

Or yeah, yeah.

Ed Zitron (125:55)

And that rocks. We should have more of that. But no, it's like, it's. It feels like the most nihilistic CES ever. It's just people being like, I fear.

Sherlyn Lowe (126:03)

It gets worse from here. I fear the beginning.

Ed Zitron (126:07)

So my theory is it actually gets better from here, but it gets. The apocalypse is so much worse because if you look at this and you realize how much LLM crap there is.

Maria Hinojosa (126:14)

Yes.

Sherlyn Lowe (126:15)

Then they'll realize, I think this is.

Tech Journalist (126:17)

A. I think this is a dip here.

Ed Zitron (126:18)

Yeah. Like this will be because. Corey, to your point. Oh, the commodity of LLMs. Just because the Chinese models are cheaper doesn't mean that they're margin positive.

Garrison Davis (126:28)

That's also true.

Ed Zitron (126:28)

Zupi. Zupi Zhujin. I forget which one went Went public and they like lost. They spent $300 million in or 200,000,000 million dollars in six months and made $27 million in revenue.

Michael Fisher (126:39)

Not great.

Garrison Davis (126:40)

I could do that.

Ed Zitron (126:40)

Yeah, I mean like I could. If you want me to lose $200 million, call me.

Michael Fisher (126:44)

I'm.

Garrison Davis (126:44)

Well, look, if you have $3 million and you're expecting a $27 million return, tell you what, I'll give you a $28 million return.

Ed Zitron (126:51)

Nice. How would you do it?

Garrison Davis (126:52)

I would will just keep all but 28 million.

Ed Zitron (126:56)

Okay, 28 million. No, it's like investing in like vineyards. Like how'd you. Yeah, no, it's. And it's like all of these companies that rely on LLMs are going away because they're going to get more expensive and it's going to be apocalyptic. I think 2027 could be like a really fucked up year for many reasons. But CES 2027 might be really fun. Might be really.

Garrison Davis (127:15)

But you just reminded me what I wanted to talk about before, which is Pete Wharton. We were talking about him yesterday. So Pete Wharton Gordon is an old school hardware hacker specializing in machine learning and finding cool. Like one of the people who was like figuring out that you could use GPUs to do machine learning a million years ago. And he just demoed on his blog a local AI voice agent running on a system on a chip that costs less than $10. So he's got an SoC. It's like an $8 SoC.

Ed Zitron (127:44)

You can put it in whenever.

Garrison Davis (127:46)

The demo he built was of a bunch button you that on your dishwasher and you smack the button and you say my filter is clogged and it goes through the manual and it finds the relevant which just on the chip and. And it's all on chip and we are again total cost of goods under $10.

Sherlyn Lowe (128:00)

He built a whole model for this is his own model.

Garrison Davis (128:03)

Yeah.

Sherlyn Lowe (128:04)

And it all it does is reference a manual.

Garrison Davis (128:06)

All that is the kind that is the scale of task it can do. So he can.

Sherlyn Lowe (128:10)

That's why it's so light.

Garrison Davis (128:11)

Make it do other kinds of tasks.

Maria Hinojosa (128:12)

But.

Garrison Davis (128:13)

But he's like I can build you an $8 SOC with a model running on it that will help you build your Ikea furniture, whatever. All this kind of. There's a lot of room at the bottom here is what I'm saying. And he has this other post. When I was looking for the post I found another one which the title says it all. I know we're in an AI bubble because nobody wants Me crying emoji. So here's a guy who does real things that are absolutely sustainable. Like, could you be revenue positive shipping AI models that run on hardware that costs less than $10? I bet you could.

Ed Zitron (128:44)

Yeah.

Garrison Davis (128:44)

Right? And, and. And like, everyone's like, yeah, but the way we raise money is from punters who don't understand the technology and whose only way of assessing the upside is how much money we spend on it. This is the pile of. Has a pony underneath it, right? And so we have to spend a lot of money to prove to them that we will make a lot of money. If we show them a thing that is profitable because it's very cheap to make, they'll be like, well, there's no upside.

Ed Zitron (129:10)

I'm just really worried because even in the Indiegogo years, Indiegogo was not everything. This is like, AI has taken everything. And people, anyone listening to this being like, AI is this or that and the other. And like, AI is taking over. No, no.

Sherlyn Lowe (129:24)

The thing I can remember that most closely mirrors this year was the year that was about the Internet of things. Everything was Internet of Things. I was so freaking annoying. I was so annoyed.

Tech Journalist (129:34)

I was just like, stop.

Sherlyn Lowe (129:34)

Stop saying Internet of Things.

Ed Zitron (129:36)

Oh, my God.

Maria Hinojosa (129:36)

What.

Ed Zitron (129:37)

What's the term?

Garrison Davis (129:38)

Internet of.

Ed Zitron (129:39)

No, the beacons. I think I heard iBeacons 1 million times. Like, we'll put an iBeacon that year. I wanted to like, Howard, we'll put an iBeacon here. Like, it's ridiculous.

Sherlyn Lowe (129:50)

And where has it gone?

Ed Zitron (129:51)

Nowhere. It's just smart home now. No, it was just like mad libs, like 5G autonomous IoT Bluetooth.

Sherlyn Lowe (129:59)

But IoT is. Is similar in the sense that, like, it's also wrappers for things. It's also like small little gadgets that don't do much and they're all e waste now. It doesn't cost as much because of the, like, none of the lol, because.

Ed Zitron (130:12)

There'S not a GPU service running in the fucking cloud for it. It's just very unfortunate. I think next CES could be kind of barren because of this. Because it's very clear, like, if there were other options, they'd be buying booths. And I don't think there are.

Sherlyn Lowe (130:25)

Or maybe they were, like, priced out because there was so much AI speed.

Garrison Davis (130:28)

That's very possible.

Ed Zitron (130:29)

But the thing is, it didn't. It looked kind of sparse too. Like, there was a lot more walking room than ever.

Garrison Davis (130:34)

I. I feel like 2003 after the dot com crash was pretty good.

Ed Zitron (130:38)

This is actually. How was It.

Garrison Davis (130:40)

It was full of people doing weird and interesting things, none of which made a mark, I think, but it was. It was a time in which, if you came to ces, it was because you had done something very improbable in a time in which there was no tech money.

Ed Zitron (130:56)

That might be 2027 for real, though, because even like LG, with this cloyed robot, it's like, hey, check this out. We're doing this thing. Well, we're not doing this thing. And you may be wondering if it does the thing we're talking about. It doesn't, but it's very slow at it. And why do you want this? Well, you can't have it.

Sherlyn Lowe (131:15)

I have a question for you.

Ed Zitron (131:16)

By all means.

Sherlyn Lowe (131:17)

When you say it's sparse, do you mean specifically some hall, some booths, or lvc?

Ed Zitron (131:21)

The top of the Expo center was empty. And I don't just mean like, it's the last day. It's. I mean, like, there were just less things, there was less density. The usual dildo battery, security camera area was really not present in the main hall in the same way. In fact, I found way more of those topside in a way that, like, I wouldn't usually. It's just very strange. And I think there's a strain on venture capital money and private equity money.

Garrison Davis (131:45)

Well, south by Southwest, last year, the trade floor was a quarter of the size and there was an entire row that was just massage guns.

Sherlyn Lowe (131:53)

Oh, my gosh.

Ed Zitron (131:54)

I saw a. I saw a area of the Palazzo where gambling would usually happen that was completely empty. That's more worrying to me.

Garrison Davis (132:02)

Oh, I saw that spot. Yeah. With the velvet ropes around it and they're like, vacuuming.

Sherlyn Lowe (132:06)

I wondered. The reason I asked. The reason I asked you is because the west hall and the LVCC Central hall got this whole facelift, right. I don't know if you've seen it yet. You know this Central hall, right?

Ed Zitron (132:18)

This year, does it look different?

Tech Journalist (132:19)

It does look different from last year.

Sherlyn Lowe (132:22)

It is still kind of a slop, but because Central hall is where Samsung and LG used to have their gigantic.

Ed Zitron (132:26)

But Samsung isn't there, right?

Sherlyn Lowe (132:27)

Samsung isn't there. It's doing the win. So I think that contributes to feeling like there's not that much going on in the convention spaces, especially since Central hall now, too, with the sort of remodel, looks much bigger. And so, you know, consequently, it looks emptier and then has a lot more, like glass windows letting in light, which I love.

Tech Journalist (132:45)

It's nice.

Sherlyn Lowe (132:45)

It's nice. But Then also makes you feel like you can see daylight and therefore it doesn't feel as packed and crowded and like.

Ed Zitron (132:52)

And on top of the fact that a lot of the things are just like.

Sherlyn Lowe (132:54)

God, the LG wall display.

Ed Zitron (132:56)

LG was so muted this year. I know usually there's like this. Like last year we had that giant transparent motherfucker.

Tech Journalist (133:03)

I like the year with the big like curved.

Sherlyn Lowe (133:05)

Yes. The canyon of walls.

Ed Zitron (133:07)

That's not spectacle. Unless you're attractor.

Sherlyn Lowe (133:10)

There's none.

Ed Zitron (133:11)

Yeah, it's just, I feel like. I feel like we're years into to just the hubris fest where it's just like, what if we didn't provide anything useful and jump to the latest trend? It's a shame. And as we come to the end of this first two hour block, I will just say I want to find cool stuff. And when we're back next year, which we will be, I hope we find more of it. And if you are someone with the cea, when you're someone putting stuff here, please think of actual people because it's getting a little sad. But final words, Sherlock.

Maria Hinojosa (133:39)

What?

Ed Zitron (133:40)

What is your takeaway from this CES in general? Big question, huh?

Sherlyn Lowe (133:44)

Yeah, I thought I had something to say and it's out of my brain now. So I think I've run out of ram, which everyone will. That's fine.

Ed Zitron (133:49)

Well, everyone's running out. Devindra was just on talking about the RAM crisis. But thank you for joining us. Thank you for having so many Engadget people on. We had Carissa.

Tech Journalist (133:57)

Thanks for having them on.

Maria Hinojosa (133:57)

Yeah.

Ed Zitron (133:58)

And it's fucking great to like actually talk about consumer electronics. And we've of course had Garrison Davis from It Could Happen Here. Thank you.

Tech Journalist (134:03)

Garrison, of course.

Ed Zitron (134:04)

And Cory Doctorow will be joining us for the next episode as well.

Garrison Davis (134:07)

Excellent. Looking forward to it.

Ed Zitron (134:08)

And I am Ed Zitron. You can please subscribe to my newsletter. Good Lord. I'm not doing a premium this week, so I need the money. More important than that, of course, our daily departed, Sean Paul Adams, who's a friend of the sweet friend of the show, passed last year. We're honoring him by getting you to donate to the Pediatric Epilepsy Research Consortium. His son is epileptic and his family would deeply appreciate your donations. Thank you for listening. We'll be back for one more two hour episode today, but I guess it'll be towards the end of the day either way. Thank you for listening. You've all been so wonderful. Send me your feedback. Go to the Reddit. I'm Ed Zitron. Goodbye. Thank you for listening to Better Offline. The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song is Matt Osawski. You can check out more of his music and audio projects@mattosowski.com matt o s o w s k-I.com you can email me at ezetteroffline.com or visit betteroffline.com to find more podcast links and of course, my newsletter. I also really recommend you go to chat wheresyoured at to visit the Discord and go to R betteroffline to check out our Reddit. Thank you so much for listening. Better Offline is a production of Cool Zone Media.

Sherlyn Lowe (135:23)

For more from Cool Zone Media, Visit.

Tech Journalist (135:25)

Our website coolzonemedia.com or check us out.

Sherlyn Lowe (135:28)

On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. At CVS it matters that we're not.

Maria Hinojosa (135:55)

Just in your community, but that we're part of it. It matters that we're here for you when you need us, day or night.

Sherlyn Lowe (136:01)

And we want everyone to feel welcomed and rewarded. It matters that CVS is here to fill your prescriptions and here to fill.

Maria Hinojosa (136:09)

Your craving for a tasty and yeah, healthy snack. At cvs, we're proud to serve your community community because we believe where you.

Sherlyn Lowe (136:17)

Get your medicine matters. So Visit us@cvs.com or just come by our store.

Maria Hinojosa (136:23)

We can't wait to meet you. Store hours vary by location.

Ed Zitron (136:28)

Hey everyone, it's Ed Helms and I'm Cal Penn and we are the hosts of Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.

Michael Fisher (136:37)

This week on the podcast I am talking to film and TV critic Rachel.

Ed Zitron (136:41)

And podcast host and Harry Potter super.

Michael Fisher (136:44)

Fan Rhianna Dillon to discuss Audible's full cast adaptation of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. What moments in this audiobook capture the feeling of the magical world best for you or just stood out the most?

Maria Hinojosa (137:01)

I always loved reading about the Quidditch matches and I think the audio really, really gets it because it just plunges you right into the stands you have the crowd sounds like all around you is surround sound, especially if you're listening in headphones.

Ed Zitron (137:17)

Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart.

Michael Fisher (137:19)

Audio Book Club on the iHeartradio app.

Garrison Davis (137:22)

Or wherever you get your podcasts.

Maria Hinojosa (137:31)

I'm Maria Hinojosa, host of Latino usa. Venezuelans around the world are celebrating the takedown of former President Ma Maduro, but inside the country there is fear and silence. And in the United States, people are concerned about Donald Trump's rogue tactics. Listen to Latino usa, the fall of Maduro, and the rise of an unconstrained Trump. That's on your iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Sherlyn Lowe (138:00)

Whether it is getting swatted or just hateful messages online, there is a lot of harm and even just reading the.

Maria Hinojosa (138:06)

Content comments that's cyber security expert Camille Stewart Gloster on the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. Every season is a chance to grow, and the Therapy for Black Girls podcast is here to walk with you. I'm Dr. Joy Harden Bradford and each week we dive into real conversations that help you move with more clarity and confidence. This episode, we're breaking down what really happens to your information online and how to protect yourself with intention. Listen to Therapy for Black Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Sherlyn Lowe (138:39)

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.