Better Offline – Episode Summary

Podcast: Better Offline
Episode: Cory Doctorow and Ed Zitron on Enshittification and the Rot Economy
Date: November 12, 2025
Host: Ed Zitron (Cool Zone Media)
Guest: Cory Doctorow
Moderator: Whitney Beltran
Location: Recorded live at Seattle Public Library

Main Theme

This episode is a live panel discussion on enshittification—a term coined by Cory Doctorow to describe how digital platforms become progressively worse for users as their business models mature—and the broader phenomenon Doctorow and Zitron call "the rot economy." The conversation examines how regulatory, economic, and technological forces have combined to degrade tech platforms, empower monopolies, and create an ecosystem where user experience and even functional utility are sacrificed to feed relentless growth and shareholder profit.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Happened to Google—Anatomy of Enshittification

[05:46–09:09]

• The panel opens with Whitney Beltran’s anecdote about waking up to find “Google sucked,” igniting a discussion on why this decline occurred.
• Ed Zitron explains (“long story short”) that around 2020, Google initiated deliberate changes to keep users on its platform longer—specifically making Google Search results less clear between ads and genuine answers, leading to user frustration but higher ad revenue:
  • “Google deliberately made things worse.” (06:57)
• Discussion centers on the influence of Prabhakar Raghavan, head of search, and the internal battle between technologists (e.g., Ben Gomes) concerned with quality and business people focused on profit.
• Cory Doctorow situates this within a bigger framework: Google’s 90%+ search market share left no real growth, so “let’s make Google worse in order to make more money.” (09:16)

2. The Rot Economy—Why Platforms Decay

[10:53–13:39]

• Doctorow introduces the concept of the “rot economy,” in which making services worse becomes not a bug, but a feature.

• The root cause isn’t individual consumer choices (“you didn’t shop wrong”), but policy decisions—mainly failure to regulate monopolies and unchecked mergers (Google, Amazon, etc.).

• Technological stagnation and anti-competitive behavior (e.g., Google paying Apple $20B/year not to compete in search) have created an “inshittogenic environment.”

  “They are terrible people. But ... the Zucker, Muskie, and Mediocrity that run these companies are not smart enough to be causes; they must be effects—they’re responding to an enshittogenic environment created by policy.” – Cory Doctorow (12:00)

3. Is Rot Economy Inevitable? Or a Policy Failure?

[13:39–20:28]

• Moderator (Beltran) asks if “rot economy” is just a fact of capitalism.
• Ed Zitron blames Milton Friedman and the legacy of Reagan-era deregulation; “growth-focused capitalism started with Milton Friedman and the free market nonsense.” (14:15)
• Doctorow: Even libertarians should realize that “the smallest government you can have is determined by the largest corporation you’re willing to tolerate.” (15:48)
• The current tech industry is the “first post antitrust industry,” thriving in an environment where anti-monopoly enforcement was abandoned.
• Monopolies aren’t proof of good business—they’re often proof of regulatory and market failures.

4. What Can Ordinary People Do?

[23:48–32:36]

• Beltran: “What do we do in our personal lives?” and shares stress about enshittification in the games industry and higher ed.

• Zitron: Most regulators and media “don’t know shit about fuck.” (24:42) Citizens should disrupt AI boosterism by attending town halls, directly challenging hype about generative AI’s economic promise.

  • “Go to the town hall meeting. Make your mayor upset. I’m deadly serious.” (25:12)

• Doctorow: Individual consumer choices—'voting with your wallet’—won’t solve systemic issues. Real change comes through collective organizing and policy intervention (e.g., Electronic Frontier Alliance, unionization).

• Tech workers once had power but failed to unionize when they could; now, after layoffs, “your boss thought you were a problem to solve.”

  “Don’t vote with your wallet. Be a citizen.” (28:46)

5. The Tech Bubble: Is Collapse Coming?

[33:59–45:04]

• Audience question: Is the tech/AI bubble about to pop? What do small investors do?

• Zitron: “There is no avoiding a bubble popping now, there just isn’t. ... This cannot succeed. On top of the fact that everyone’s unprofitable, it’s not actually that popular either ... it’s going to pop.” (35:54, 38:42)

• AI companies (OpenAI, Anthropic, etc.) are burning billions with little real revenue. Zitron is deeply skeptical of the whole enterprise and AI “usefulness.”

• Doctorow: Some economic bubbles (e.g., WorldCom) had “productive residues” (fiber infrastructure). Maybe cheap GPUs or open models may offer some future positives, but he’s skeptical about “AI as infrastructure.”

  “Crypto is not going to leave behind anything ... AI is actually going to leave behind some stuff.” – Cory Doctorow (39:12)

He offers hope for useful applications if tools fall into the hands of workers and public interest groups (e.g., Human Rights Data Analysis Group’s work exonerating prisoners).

6. AI Hype, US vs China, and (Mis)use Cases

[53:41–58:42]

• Audience Q: Would slowing US AI just let China “dominate”?
• Zitron: This panic is recycled Cold War rhetoric. “Using China as a convenient excuse to spunk money every month is a fucking stupid idea.” (54:17) There’s “no development to be made that is not being made in America.”
• Doctorow: Defending domestic monopolies in the name of “beating China” only entrenches their power against US workers and innovators: “...By centralizing the network, they were able to just basically kneel on the throat of the American tech industry.” (57:24)

7. Career Advice for the Next Generation

[58:47–63:45]

• Audience Q: What should a tech-minded high school student study now?
• Zitron: “Finance ... the world runs on money. ... They empower themselves through ignorance.” Anyone can learn to decode corporate and financial power structures; this is where real leverage lies.
• Doctorow: Suggests learning a trade—especially becoming an electrician (“We're going to be solarizing for the next 40 years”), which offers security, good pay, and interesting work.
  • “It’s like being a plumber, but you don’t have to touch poo.” (62:12)
• Both agree: Trades knowledge and financial literacy are powerful tools for the future.

8. Lightning Round: When Does the Bubble Pop?

[64:25–65:56]

• Zitron: “No later than Q2 2026.” (64:37)
• Doctorow: Won’t commit to a date, quotes Keynes: “The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent,” but thinks it will be soon. Predicts after the shakeout, “the number of foundation models that will be around after the crash very likely could be zero ... except open models.” (64:40)
• Healthy dark humor: “Don’t try to short that market. Buy poles. Practice digging for canned goods and rubble.” (65:22)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Ed Zitron on Google’s rot:
  “Google deliberately made things worse. And then the guy who’s called Prabhakar Raghavan, remember that name, ... mandated, basically ... that he just reduced the quality of results.” (07:32)

• Cory Doctorow, on power and policy:
  "They are terrible people. But ... Zucker, Muskie, and Mediocrity ... are not smart enough to be causes, they must be effects." (12:00)

• Ed Zitron, on American capitalism:
  “Once you allowed Reagan and his various judges to pull away regulation ... the markets to become growth drunk—that is the center of the rot economy.” (14:15)

• Doctorow’s analogy for tech regulation:
  “The smallest government you can have is determined by the largest corporation you’re willing to tolerate.” (15:48)

• Doctorow on personal action:
  “Don’t vote with your wallet. Be a citizen.” (28:46)

• Zitron on activism:
  “Go to the town hall meeting. Make your mayor upset. I’m deadly serious.” (25:12)

• Doctorow on the aftermath of bubbles:
  “Crypto is not going to leave behind anything. ... AI is actually going to leave behind some stuff.” (39:12)

• Moderator on generative AI in games:
  “We have found a use for generative AI that doesn’t steal anybody’s work ... makes us about 15% faster. ... Is it worth burning down the planet? I can’t answer that for you. It’s a Wednesday.” (52:05)

• Cory Doctorow’s career advice:
  “Go to college and become an electrician. There is so much work for electricians and we are going to be solarizing for the next 40 years.” (62:12)

Segment Timestamps

• 03:55 – Panel kicks off
• 06:20 – Why Google sucks now
• 09:16 – “Let’s make Google worse to make more money”
• 12:00 – Policy failures, monopoly consolidation
• 14:15 – Is rot just late capitalism?
• 23:48 – What can individuals do?
• 28:46 – “Don’t vote with your wallet. Be a citizen.”
• 33:59 – Is the AI/tech bubble real? How to navigate as an investor?
• 39:12 – Will AI leave anything useful behind?
• 53:41 – “If we don’t go all in on AI, will China beat the US?”
• 58:47 – What should young people study for future-proof work?
• 64:25 – Lightning round: Bubble popping timeline predictions

Tone and Atmosphere

• Candid, irreverent, and occasionally profane (e.g., “don’t know shit about fuck,” “these chunderfucks love to say this stuff”).
• Wry humor and gallows wit; direct, sometimes caustic about tech elites, regulators, and business media.
• Genuine audience engagement and encouragement to get involved, unionize, and push back on hype-driven narratives.

Actionable Takeaways

• Don’t pin hopes on “ethical consumption” for system change—join grassroots groups or unions.
• Intervene locally: Challenge AI/data hype at community level (especially data center proposals).
• Learn the basics of finance and corporate structure to demystify and challenge corporate power.
• Trade skills (especially in electrification) are likely to offer security and purpose.
• Expect the bubble to pop—exercise caution, skepticism, and prepare for chaos (but don’t try to time the market).

For Further Information:

• Electronic Frontier Alliance (EFA)
• Ed Zitron: Better Offline, Where’s Your Head At? Newsletter
• Cory Doctorow: EFF, latest books (including The Reverse Centaur’s Guide to Life After AI)