Victoria Song (1:57)

Call Zone Media.

Ed Zitron (2:00)

Hello and welcome to Better Offline. I'm your host, Ed Zitron. Better Offline Buy a T shirt. Subscribe to the premium newsletter. Pledge yourself to the Zitron's graveyard smash. And this is, of course, hater season. And we're joined by two of the greatest haters to ever do it. Victoria's song of the Verge.

Victoria Song (2:27)

Hello. And I hate things.

Ed Zitron (2:29)

That's right. And of course, Alex. Alex Kranz. And that's just. I'm kidding. That is just me flawlessly saying the word Alex.

Alex Kranz (2:37)

I hated it. That was the worst pronunciation of my name ever. But I think it works for the show today.

Ed Zitron (2:43)

It works for the show. And also people say my name wrong all the time. So I need to get one.

Alex Kranz (2:47)

Zytron.

Victoria Song (2:48)

Right? Ed.

Alex Kranz (2:49)

Zytron.

Ed Zitron (2:50)

Zytron.

Alex Kranz (2:51)

He is Zytron.

Ed Zitron (2:52)

Zytron is the most that one. I'm just like, do you pronounce everything like the word high? Anyway, Victoria, we'll start off with you because you told me beforehand you hate the word wellness. I'd love to understand why

Victoria Song (3:07)

we have to start with a soul cleansing breath like they do in those wellness studios that you sometimes get yoga in. But yeah, so normally my beat is wellness and health, not wellness wearables and health tech. And that is increasingly now being co opted by the word wellness, which is Nina is sometimes a grift. And so my job has become someone who. It's changed from someone who evaluates technology to someone who is like, is this snake oil? Oh my God, it's snake oil. Let me explain why it's snake oil. Oh, they want your piss and your pee and everything is dystopian and, oh, Maga's involved now. Okay, well, Maha. And just all the news on my beat is just like, okay, what if we didn't, what if we didn't go like a full 60 miles per hour, 0 to 60 into snake oil? What if we didn't do that? What if we didn't do that? What if we, what if we didn't do that? What if, what if we didn't take advantage of the fact that our healthcare system is shit and people have a lot of health anxiety and when they go to doctors, they don't feel listened to that, you know, we could actually get proper medical care in this country and not rely on big tech who wants to monetize you and your, your ailments with the guise of being an alternative to actual doctors with medical training.

Alex Kranz (4:41)

Is it, is it that they, they want to just use us all as like little parts in their expense reports? Let me take that back.

Ed Zitron (4:48)

I think.

Alex Kranz (4:49)

Is it because they just want to make money off of us?

Ed Zitron (4:51)

Yeah.

Alex Kranz (4:51)

Or is it because they can't read science literature and they don't sell it?

Jacob Goldstein (4:57)

Why not? Both.

Victoria Song (4:58)

It's all of it. It's just all of it, all of it all at once. There's just like so many examples of it happening and it feels like it's ramping up to the point where I feel insane. So, like, when. When I was on your show at ces, I was talking about gray market peptides and how people are injecting themselves with unapproved retatrutide, which is a not yet approved drug, but they're buying it off, or they're buying what they say is retatrutide off of TikTok and all of these gray market sellers. And I'm just like. I'm, like, fairly certain that what you're getting is not actually retatrutide based on, like, I don't know how drug production works because I've talked to pharmacists and, you know, interviewed people.

Ed Zitron (5:41)

So generally it feels like random people on TikTok are not usually, like, able to access things of this nature. Like just like just a random, random person just walking around.

Victoria Song (5:55)

Just generally speaking, if, you know, nurse practitioners are real, registered nurses are, you know, there's all these different types of nurse categories, and some of them are legitimate and have a lot of, you know, they're able to prescribe medicines. They're able to talk you through those things. And some of them are like little Sally Jo Johnson from some place who just put a lot of letters after her name and is actually like a wellness guru. But she's saying, like, based on the science and the research. And I can tell she has not done the science and the research because when she is reconstituting a peptide, she has not disinfected her hands while she rolls the stuff on her very dirty kitchen counter, which are videos that I've seen. Videos I've seen.

Ed Zitron (6:39)

Yeah, well, I mean, like I was

Alex Kranz (6:42)

gonna say, I'm upset that you're talking about my primary care physician that way. Like, she works really, really hard to give me all sorts of things that I know are real and not salt water, and I inject them into my body. I look and feel great. Listen, I haven't been insured since, you know, a Democrat was in power. I mean, what's the problem here?

Victoria Song (7:05)

I mean, there's a lot of problems here, not least the grifters. Like, there are real people online who are medical professionals, nurses do pharmacists who are giving decent medical information. I only know which one's decent, though, because I do this for a living. I think if you're the average person, you can see a lot of stuff together, and some of it is true, and it's put next to stuff that is not true. And so by then it looks a lot smarter. Like, I just Did. I'm trying out this thing in my newsletter, Optimizer that I'm like, it's not called this, but I think of them as wellness marketing report cards. And I just did AG1, which you've heard on every podcast ad known to man.

Ed Zitron (7:47)

I don't know what, I don't know what it is.

Alex Kranz (7:49)

I was like, is better than. Brought to you.

Victoria Song (7:52)

You've never heard of athletic screens? It's AG1. It's a greens powder. Oh yeah, it's like a green powder.

Ed Zitron (7:59)

Is that bollocks?

Victoria Song (8:00)

Yes, basically. Would you like your PP to be expensive? Because that's what it. It's a supplement made from like a proprietary blend of ground up vegetables and some buzzwords like adaptogens and all that.

Ed Zitron (8:15)

And that doesn't. Does it not even give you the nutritional benefits of vegetables?

Victoria Song (8:19)

I mean it, I mean the fiber content is like 2 grams of fiber for a serving, which is not that much fiber. Honestly, if you. Yeah, I feel like you get more fiber from that. But you know, like, I'm not saying that if you want to drink your daily greens because it's going to get you in the habit and the mindset of doing something healthier for yourself later on in the day, there's no harm with. But if you go to their research page and their marketing site, they're gonna say the next generation of AG1 is clinically backed. What does that mean? Clinically backed does not mean what you think it means. It's not for a supplement. Do you know what? A supplement is not regulated by the fd. Fucking A. It's not regulated.

Ed Zitron (9:00)

Well, first of all, would Hugh Jackman lie to me?

Victoria Song (9:03)

Because yes, Hugh Jackman fucking lied to you. Cause he's tap dancing on the AG1 fucking things. He's saying superfood. Do you know superfood is. It's a marketing label. It's not a scientific term. It's a marketing label. All it means is it's a nutrient. It's a nutrient dense food. That's all that. That means it's a marketing label.

Ed Zitron (9:27)

No, but this is the thing. It's like so number one doctor recommended brand means nothing, I'm guessing.

Victoria Song (9:33)

Which doctors?

Ed Zitron (9:35)

Well, real doctors, Victoria. So Dr. Huberman.

Victoria Song (9:39)

Well, I'm afraid don't trust Dr. Huberman. You know, I had a. I had a.

Ed Zitron (9:42)

That is actually the guy on there.

Victoria Song (9:44)

No, I had a doctor who said, hey, have you listened to the Huberman podcast? And guess what? I did. I fired them. As in I found a new doctor. I didn't say, you're fired. But I was like, I can't trust you if you believe that man. Who just basically also partners with AG1 to make AGZ, which is like a sleep thing. And it's just. Okay, look. Okay, so I went through. I went through their clinical studies, their quote unquote clinical studies.

Ed Zitron (10:08)

What did you see?

Victoria Song (10:09)

Here's the thing.

Ed Zitron (10:10)

Was it good?

Victoria Song (10:11)

Here's the thing. When you have a drug or a medical treatment, it goes through clinical trials to make sure it's efficacious and safe and to find out what the efficacious dose is. This is a supplement. It is not regulated. This is not required. So they're just doing voluntary clinic clinical studies to show marketing because it's like, hey, guess what? We saw an improvement in the gut microbiome and all this other shit. Which is like, again, your gut is your second brain. Your gut and your brain talk to each other. It can affect your cognition and your mood if you don't have the proper amount of gut bacteria in there. We have research saying this, okay? And so they're going, well, we got strains of probiotics in AG1. Now, this is the original formula because their website is very, very tricksily laid out. And so I go there and I go like, okay, let me look at this peer research. And you look at the graphs and this peer research that's linked there. Well, first of all, the sample size is 20. Like, what, 30 people? Negligible, ideally.

Ed Zitron (11:17)

Ideally negligible, no. But just for the sake of argument, how many people do you generally want in a clinical trial?

Victoria Song (11:23)

10 per. Statistically. Statistically you like 105 or so. Like a hundred people. We sometimes see that in the clinical trial you want as many people that will be statistically significant for the population that you're studying.

Ed Zitron (11:35)

So you need a ton of people,

Victoria Song (11:36)

different people is not significant. 30 people is not significant.

Alex Kranz (11:42)

What is the population? They're selling to everyone who might have tummy problems. Oh, I was like, if it's like dumbasses who exclusively get their medical advice from commercials on their Instagram and TikTok

Victoria Song (11:54)

feed, that's still a higher population than 30 people to be sick. I was hoping the ability to speak. I can't say statistically because I'm so mad. Listen, okay, Go through their little. Go through their little study. You have to go through the methodology. They're saying double blind, placebo controlled. Okay, that's great. Gold standard. Sure, whatever. 30 people. Let me look at the graphs. You know, it's the graphs of the placebo and the pre and post AG1 use usage. Statistically the bars are the same. Is the change in the gut microbiome in the room with us? No, it's not. Nothing. Oh, they pooped a little more. Well, I should hope so. If you have fiber.

Alex Kranz (12:40)

If you want.

Ed Zitron (12:41)

Here's the thing. If you want, if you want to like have a better gut, just have some Greek yogurt in the morning. It changed my life.

Victoria Song (12:47)

Oh, you know what killed me? You killed me. You know what? I killed me? The line that said there was like an increase in these two strains of probiotics because it's an ingredient in AG1.

Ed Zitron (13:00)

Wait, so they increased, they measured something that they were adding? Okay, yes.

Victoria Song (13:08)

That's like saying we found, we found corn in your poop cuz you ate corn.

Ed Zitron (13:13)

That's so cool. I, that's the thing, I get targeted with these like mushroom coffee things or melatonin coffees or sleep coffee. Like weird hot chocolate shit on inst. There was a period when that was all they targeted me with. And it didn't do shit. Like I refuse to do it. I'm not paying $30 for like five hot chocolates. Go fuck yourself. It's disgusting.

Alex Kranz (13:36)

Yeah, I spent $4 on biotin and it didn't do anything for my nails. I took it.

Victoria Song (13:42)

Here's the thing. Supplements are not regulated. So is the supplement that you're actually getting actually the supplement in an efficacious amount? I don't fucking know.

Alex Kranz (13:55)

I took the proprietary blend.

Victoria Song (13:58)

If it's a proprietary blend, like AG1 uses proprietary blend. You don't know how much of each thing is in there. You just don't, you don't. It's. Listen, if you're gonna have greens powder because you want to kickstart your day and you want to have like a healthy habit to start your day with, go off queen. I love that for you. But to call it clinically backed I find disingenuous. And I see this happen a lot in wellness.

Alex Kranz (14:29)

It's always there. They are the ones that backed the study, right? Like, we see this a lot.

Victoria Song (14:34)

They did pay for the study. They paid for ihs.

Ed Zitron (14:36)

That's also good.

Alex Kranz (14:36)

All the fake mates said, we're going to be the healthiest, we're going to be the best, we're going to be so good for you. And I was like, oh, who did the study? We did. Oh, did you do any studies that you didn't directly pay for? No.

Victoria Song (14:48)

I want to be fair, they did publish in peer reviewed journals and 9 out of 10 times you are going to see people at least partially fund the study because it's very hard, especially in this climate, to get research funding for a truly independent peer reviewed study that's third party, that has no affiliation with the company at all. It's good to look at it holistically with making sure they have really good methodology and you know that their findings make fucking sense based on their marketing. So like if, if they were to be super honest about what they found, it would be like, you're not gonna die from having AG1 and there's a potential that you might see some benefit.

Ed Zitron (15:31)

Well, I'm reading here that's what it is. What is a nutritional gap. Because it claims that there is a nutrient. It helps. They demonstrated a statistically significant and positive impact on closing common nutrient gaps. This just. You didn't have enough of the nutrient.

Victoria Song (15:49)

Yes. So it's like, so this is what else pisses me off. So that that marketing site is just like the next gen of AG1 is clinically backed. And then you scroll all the way down to the peer reviewed studies and you're like, oh, look, look at these published peer reviewed studies. That is for the old formula of AG1 and all those statistics that you just saw on that, that's for the new formulation of AG1. Guess how many peer reviewed published studies they have on that? Zero. Because they only have abstracts that have been presented and like abstracts, like I'm going through the abstracts and it's just like the sample sizes. I think the largest sample size is like 120 people, but most of them are like 24 people who are healthy. So is this kind of like an

Alex Kranz (16:31)

FDA approval grift in wearables?

Victoria Song (16:35)

Okay, first of all, wearables are not FDA approved. They are FDA cleared because we approved. That's what I meant.

Capella University Announcer (16:40)

What's the difference?

Ed Zitron (16:41)

All right. No, Victoria, you got explained. Sorry.

Victoria Song (16:43)

Because it's a marketing thing. Basically you're just saying, saying that it's adhered to a certain degree of safety and protocols. So yes, you're going to be HIPAA compliant. If you're FDA cleared, you are going to have done some testing to make sure it's safe. And you only require this kind of clearance for class, I believe, class two medical devices or higher. Class two means intermediate risk. Class three is just like, oh, there's a significant risk in using this. And class one is like a tongue depressor. So you have some Class 1 medical devices that are like the little stick that the doctor Sticks in your mouth when you go like that. That's a Class 1 medical device in some cases. And those are just FDA listed. Class 1, FDA listed, Class 2, FDA cleared. And then you have stuff like drugs which must be FDA approved. So there is a nuance to those particular meanings. But with wearables, to get the clearance process, it's for stuff like screening, right? So you get an AKG and it says we're not diagnosing you with atrial fibrillation, but homeboy, maybe go to a doctor and see if these things make sense. That is a cleared, generally an FDA cleared feature. Because it's either a class, That's a Class 2 feature basically is what they're saying. Now if you don't want to do that because it's a very expensive process, you just go, it's wellness. Wellness isn't regulated because it's for your information only. Education is fun. So whoop. A couple of months ago they had this blood pressure feature that they came out and the way that this feature looked, it looked like it was telling you your systole and your, your diastolic and your systolic reading and telling you whether your blood pressure was high, medium or low. And the FDA was like, haha, no, you did not go through the clearance process for this. You're telling people what their blood pressure is. And we was like, ha ha, no, this is a wellness feature. It' for your education. This wasn't meant to give you a reading. And the FDA was like, it kind of looks like a reading. It kind of looks like you're giving a diagnostic judgment. So that needs to go through the clearance process. And then whoop was like, haha, we disagree. Innovation. Yeah. And so then I just read a story on Politico today that Aura, the smart ring maker is now lobbying in Washington to get a third category of devices, like a separate third category of classification called digital health screeners that wouldn't go through the very cumbersome clearance process but would be more legit, less wellness. So yeah, that makes sense though. I don't know that. I don't know that that's gonna make things clearer or easier. I don't know.

Alex Kranz (19:34)

No, I like, I, I think, I think for the customer, for the, for the consumer, we need a total radical rethinking of all of this because it's gotten complete like the plot, I think for the companies making a third device that's like here are things that can identify but should never ever be taken by themselves, should always be used in context With a doctor like the Oura ring or the whoop band for blood pressure, I'm like, that kind of makes sense.

Victoria Song (20:02)

It's just the line is already blurry.

Alex Kranz (20:05)

I'm not hating enough.

Ed Zitron (20:06)

No, I feel like we're hating.

Victoria Song (20:07)

Is already blurry. Between wellness. What is a wellness? Like the blood pressure? Not the blood pressure. The blood oxygen reading on your Apple Watch. What is that? Is that FDA cleared or is that wellness?

Ed Zitron (20:21)

I think that anything that measures your body should have to be far more rigorously checked because I have a different reading on my Oura Ring, my Apple watch, my headphones, everything seems different. If I was relying on this information for anything other than punishing myself, I would be very worried. Like, if I was sick in some way.

Alex Kranz (20:40)

Oh, yeah.

Ed Zitron (20:41)

Also aura, this whole aura, being able to check if I'm sick thing, it has never caught.

Victoria Song (20:47)

Has worked.

Alex Kranz (20:47)

It caught when I was really depressed once.

Ed Zitron (20:50)

I'm sorry, I shouldn't laugh at that, but.

Victoria Song (20:53)

What did he say?

Alex Kranz (20:54)

Hysterical? No, it just. I got a note. I'm in bed at 2 o' clock in the afternoon. Cause, you know, depressed, sleeping. And I get a note and it's like, oh, you're having major symptoms. I'm like, yeah, no shit, Sherlock. I haven't gotten out of bed today. Thank you for joining. But like it just said by temperature,

Victoria Song (21:10)

it's caught when I was coming down with something once, and then it caught when I was incredibly anxious. Another time I was just like, oh, you think I'm sick? Well, I'm sick with anxiety. I'm just alive. That was the one time I'm just.

Ed Zitron (21:25)

I'm just breathing.

Alex Kranz (21:26)

I. I love it. I loved it when it was like, no, you're deathly sick. And I'm like, no, I'm just depressed. But honestly, thank you. Thank you for seeing depression as an illness or a rage. You were just like, it wasn't intentional.

Victoria Song (21:37)

You're in the brain. That's.

Alex Kranz (21:38)

Then I got out of bed. That's great.

Ed Zitron (21:40)

Yeah, that was because it said you needed to stand up.

Alex Kranz (21:44)

Pretty much. I got like, the text and I was like, time to get out.

Matt Rogers (21:47)

Every time.

Ed Zitron (21:47)

I know. Every time I see that note being like, you need to stand up. I genuinely want to offend off every time. How dare you. My ass goes where? My ass.

Alex Kranz (21:55)

I never stand up.

Victoria Song (21:57)

I'm currently standing up because I've been sitting too long. But again, this is my beat, so yay.

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Imagine that.

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Victoria Song (25:37)

Anywho, wellness really fucking pisses me off

Ed Zitron (25:42)

this ChatGPT health thing as well. Like, I just think that should be in prison, all of them, for doing that stuff.

Alex Kranz (25:49)

The AI companies using these things as promises to help you get healthier mentally, physically, and everything in between is such garbage. Because, like, let me tell you something. You know what I've been doing for a while now? I've been messing with these AI guys. I love to have a chat with them. I love to be like, hey, this is what's going on in my life. How we doing? How you feeling?

Ed Zitron (26:10)

You talk good to the chat AI in this case.

Alex Kranz (26:13)

Oh, yeah. I love always in, like, the incognito mode.

Ed Zitron (26:16)

Nice.

Alex Kranz (26:17)

So that it only saves a little bit of it. And then every time it tells me to do something, and when I go back and tell it the next time in chat, it's forgotten. And I love it. Highly recommend incognito mode. But it's terrible advice. The advice is consistently terrible. The advice is consistently like, treat yourself better. And it's like, I haven't gotten out of bed in three days. And it's like, you're doing okay.

Ed Zitron (26:34)

I love.

Alex Kranz (26:35)

I mean, I've gotten out of bed in three days doing great. But, like, you know, you'd say something really extreme like that of, like, clearly you're not doing okay. And it's like, hey, it happens to all of us. You just sit in bed for another week and you're Like Claude. No, Claude.

Capella University Announcer (26:52)

What are we doing?

Alex Kranz (26:53)

That's bad advice.

Ed Zitron (26:54)

Just the kind of shit advice you could get from literally anyone. Oh, I. I hadn't thought about feeling better when I felt sad. I thought I'd be deliberately feeling sad more because I thought that's what would make me feel better. Thank you, Chat GPT. It's just fucking.

Alex Kranz (27:11)

And then when you ask it, you ask it for. You're like, okay, I want to work on my fitness. Vee gives much better advice than Claude every single time. Like V. That's what your optimizer, like fancy line should be. I don't know what those are called anymore.

Victoria Song (27:28)

Tagline.

Alex Kranz (27:28)

But it needs to just be. Yeah, tagline. Your tagline needs to be better advice than Claude or OpenAI.

Victoria Song (27:34)

What?

Ed Zitron (27:34)

Did you see the ChatGPT ad for running when it was like, no, it was like, here's some running advice. And one of it's like, run with someone else so you're accountable. Run three times a week. It's like, fucking hell, I'm so glad we are spending $50,000 a GPU on this bullshit.

Victoria Song (27:52)

There was a. Yeah, I was like,

Alex Kranz (27:53)

you can just get that by Googling.

Victoria Song (27:55)

There was a Wall Street Journal article about Runna, which is an. They market themselves as an AI powered running app and they were acquired by Strava last year. If you're on running talk at all, you've probably seen people talk about Runna. It's mass. And the Wall Street Journal article was hilarious because it's like people are getting injured using this because they just listen to the AI and like I've used Runa and I have a very hard time sticking with that app because I find the program way too aggressive. So they came out with like a new mode that's like, hey, we made it less aggressive because a lot of you were getting injured and complaining. And I was like, haha. It's almost like to use Runa properly, you also have to know when to ignore it. Which is not the point of what they say AI should be. So I also hate AI and fitness.

Ed Zitron (28:46)

Well, I mean, yeah, it's also like the thing with fitness is even with a good routine, even with a good. Like, I have had to. I did the same routine for a year. I've had to pare it back because I kept getting injured because I'm getting older. Like, you actually have to be able to like know when your body feels.

Alex Kranz (29:03)

That's. That's the worst part of it is, is yeah, you want it to be like a trainer. And it can talk to you.

Ed Zitron (29:10)

Yeah. It can pretend to be one.

Alex Kranz (29:11)

It can give you that things. But the trainer is gonna go, hey, I noticed you went really hard today and your knees inflamed.

Victoria Song (29:18)

Maybe for the rest of the week a bad trainer will be like, no pain, no gain. I've had trainers see that every single.

Alex Kranz (29:25)

But AI is always gonna be a bad trainer because it's not gonna see it.

Victoria Song (29:29)

Right? It's. I mean, they keep. They keep saying that they're gonna make it better. I've yet to test an AI coach that I feel would give me the advice that I actually need. I with myself and be like, oh, how are we feeling today in our body? Where are we feeling pain? Should I push it? I could push it, but what's my goal? You know, I got to have this conversation with myself in my head.

Alex Kranz (29:50)

How many of these constantly AI coaches that you see are like actually programmed from the ground up to help with this? And how many are just large language models with like the aura one, right? Where it's just kind of like the large language model with a little bit of fanciness slapped on it? So you're like, oh, I'm not getting any.

Victoria Song (30:09)

Most of them are just captain.

Ed Zitron (30:11)

Obviously they're just prompts though, because you can't really. For you to do a trainer that was a specialized LLM, you would have to have a shit ton of words

Victoria Song (30:21)

and like a bunch also chatty too. I'm just like, Jesus Christ. You need to like, give me several less paragraphs about like, I don't, I don't need this. And then you'll tell them like, please stop being so chatty. Please be more concise. And they're like, oh, yeah, okay, got it. Two prompts later, just 800 word essay about your fitness, they hear you and

Alex Kranz (30:41)

they want to gently push back on your plans for your exercising routine.

Victoria Song (30:45)

Well, I mean, I never get that we have different AIs, but clearly. But like, it's just.

Ed Zitron (30:51)

Well, I just.

Alex Kranz (30:51)

Claude's so nice.

Victoria Song (30:54)

I refuse to let them be nice to me. I say they are not allowed to be complimentary beyond 1%. I'm only allowed to get 1%.

Alex Kranz (31:01)

Oh, no.

Victoria Song (31:01)

That's because complimenting from these dipshits bots.

Alex Kranz (31:04)

I'm using incognito mode. It remembers nothing, right? It is incredible. So you could. You'll tell it anything. It's gonna forget from the next time. So you never program it. So Claude is always just like, hey, friend, I'm just like that one person who just Sort of smiles and nods at you a lot.

Victoria Song (31:22)

And like, that's not very helpful. I mean, I don't.

Alex Kranz (31:25)

It's not very helpful. No, I don't love it from like a usefulness standpoint. I love it as like a sociological experiment. Does that make sense? I love to play with it and kind of be like, oh, what are you trying here? What are you hoping to accomplish? But nine times out of 10, it does not actually help me. Every time I've had AI help, try to help me with fitness, try to help me with sleeping better. Try to help me with writing garbage. Garbage.

Victoria Song (31:51)

Because you're always getting regressed to the mean. And when it comes to health, well, we're gonna go against the wellness versus the medical thing again. Because if they're giving you diagnostic advice, they could be liable for that. So they're only gonna give you the most generic regression to the mean wellness advice that applies to everyone and is common sense. And it's like, well, if it's common sense, well, I didn't fucking need you to tell me it's common sense that I like. That's why a lot of the AI Fitness is just regurgitated book reports. It's the AI going like, hey, girl, you ran 3.1 miles today in this time. That's faster than your other time. And yay. That's not what I need from you. Thank you, Pablo. My cat is screaming at me. But, yeah, I just.

Ed Zitron (32:37)

I would never tell these things anything about myself. I just, like, I've naturally. My autism screener built into my brain. Just refuse. It's just like, I cannot trust. I would never tell a website my secrets.

Alex Kranz (32:50)

Oh, I get that. I get that. And sometimes I just do.

Ed Zitron (32:54)

No, that's fine.

Bowen Yang (32:55)

I'm not sure.

Alex Kranz (32:56)

Incognito mode. And I'm like, you know what? Let's hope you never leak the incognito mode stuff. Let's hope you're real. Yeah.

Ed Zitron (33:02)

But also, are you incognito mode? Unless you're just like, I'm Alex Kranz. Let me tell you, my little.

Alex Kranz (33:07)

Every single time, I'm like, hi, my name's Alex Kranz.

Ed Zitron (33:09)

Hello, I'm Alex.

Alex Kranz (33:10)

Look me up real fast. Okay, now let's chat that.

Ed Zitron (33:14)

And I just also with fitness, like, fitness has been a big part of my life for the last few years especially. And it's like, the best advice I've got is from regular people who have been like, you're going too hard or just stop hurting yourself. That's the biggest thing not like I'm self harming but like I would push myself too far. It would always be like, my, my wrist hurts. It's like, well, if you tried not fucking boxing, dickhead. And it's like, I don't think chatgpt would say it. Mostly it's like friends of mine being like, yeah, you need to rest. Because in, I don't know, being a little personal here in my head I'm like, I should train more, I should lose weight. Like I push myself quite hard. A large language model telling me anything about that isn't going to help. Partly because I'll be like, I'm not a website. Does not impress me. Like, I don't trust your judgment. And also most of the time the mean advice around lifting is dog shit. I'm so sorry, but the best lifting advice ever got was lift volume, not heavy. And then people would be like, oh, I like lifting heavy things, put them back down and it's fine. But it's like, does not work for a lot of people I've met.

Victoria Song (34:18)

You mean you're not in The Church of CrossFit? Progressive overload.

Ed Zitron (34:23)

Ah, what is that? Just what does. What I know about CrossFit, but I saw how they do pull ups and I just stopped listening to them.

Victoria Song (34:33)

Like, I'm not gonna shit on CrossFit. They do some. It's very hard to push it.

Ed Zitron (34:37)

No, I have numerous friends who've used it.

Alex Kranz (34:39)

It's a philosophy of working out that is very different from a lot of other fox.

Ed Zitron (34:44)

There we go.

Alex Kranz (34:46)

It's really all about pushing as hard, pushing yourself to your physical limits, which for some people that can be a really useful thing. If you are over the age of 35, maybe be careful because you're going to hurt yourself.

Victoria Song (35:01)

I mean, and they.

Alex Kranz (35:02)

It's like under the age of 35, go do your CrossFit.

Victoria Song (35:05)

Well, no, I think CrossFit has like, it's because it's a franchise. And so each CrossFit gym can be very different. I think there's like a million different crossfits out there and it depends on which CrossFit person you know in your life as to what CrossFit they do. Some of them do the Marjorie Taylor Greene version of CrossFit, some of them do a much more reasonable version of it.

Alex Kranz (35:26)

I love her little pull up.

Victoria Song (35:29)

Oh, they're like. I think they're called kipping pull ups.

Ed Zitron (35:32)

Yeah, that's what I was saying. Those weird CrossFit, the ones where you're just like, I'm gonna Break my neck.

Victoria Song (35:39)

Yeah.

Alex Kranz (35:40)

Oh my God. The little that it looks like the way I would try to do a pull up as a child and you'd be told no because it looks like

Ed Zitron (35:47)

not being able to do a pull up.

Alex Kranz (35:50)

That's what it looks like because they're different.

Victoria Song (35:52)

It's an interesting, it's an interesting look. But yeah, no. So it's, it's the, the other thing that I'm gonna back to the hate and like, less thoughtfulness, more hate. I hate wellness influencers. Like, not every wellness influencer. There's some that are like, not horrible and who actually talk about science and are quite responsible and like thoughtful in their wellness content. They are not the majority. The majority is just like, oh my God, I drink 81 every day and I have so much energy now. Or they'll be like, oh my God, come with what I eat in a day. And it's just disordered eating. Or, you know, they're like protein, protein, protein, protein, max. And it's like, well, protein is nice, but you do need to eat your other macros and. Or, you know, it's just these little nuggets of science or nutritional like best practices that get buried with disordered eating habits, that get buried with pseudoscience that are just like not that helpful for people to know, but it sounds real. And then, you know, because they are your parasocial friend, a lot of people start to trust them and, and then they start doing stupid things in their life. And these, these are all people who are just generally by and large, miss or underserved by the healthcare system. They don't want to go to a doctor who's going to dismiss their pain for the bazillionth time because that's the only thing that's affordable in their insurance network. But I just really hate that one. Influencers, whether they mean to or not, I'm sure some of them are well meaning whatever. They are profiting off of your discomfort and your search for something that's more affordable. I hate that because a lot of them don't take the time to do their due diligence. And so they're taking sponsored money from these powders that you don't need objectively, but saying, oh my God, this is how I cured everything holistically, because I have to eat clean. What is eating clean?

Ed Zitron (37:48)

What does that mean?

Victoria Song (37:49)

Wash your fucking vegetable.

Ed Zitron (37:51)

What does eating clean mean?

Victoria Song (37:52)

It's like just eating healthy. But they're like, I eat clean, I don't eat processed foods, I don't eat Sugar, I don't eat this. And, you know, a little sugar in moderation is fine.

Ed Zitron (38:02)

You 100% eats sugar. Yeah, there's no.

Victoria Song (38:04)

Everyone eats sugar. Or it's people who say, like, oh my God, fruit has a high glycemic index, so it's bad for you. It's a fucking fruit. Like, it's fine.

Alex Kranz (38:13)

I once had a doctor, I was with a diabetic patient who's a family member, and I was once with them, and the doctor was like, they could never eat a banana. And I was like, what if their blood sugar is low?

Ed Zitron (38:24)

Not with that.

Alex Kranz (38:25)

They can't eat a banana. And I'm like, okay, so they just died. Like, they could eat a. They can eat a banana. They just shouldn't eat it if their blood sugar is high or they're not, you know, thinking about it. But who is this culpable? Is it these fitness influencers or is it the entire industry, including the Googles and the YouTubes

Victoria Song (38:45)

industry?

Ed Zitron (38:46)

I actually think it's one abstraction higher, which ties into AI as well, which is, yes, everyone wants a simple solution. They want to work out a way to lose weight that is not working out consistently. And eating less, less calories, though I realize it's not even as flat as that because everyone's body is kind of different. They want something that will give them a quick answer without them learning anything. They want a fitness plan that will tell them something they don't already know.

Alex Kranz (39:14)

It's called GLP1.

Ed Zitron (39:16)

I can also just say, and for

Victoria Song (39:17)

some, hit you over the head.

Ed Zitron (39:19)

No GLP. I mean, I think GLP1 fucking rocks.

Alex Kranz (39:22)

I think, I think when it's used.

Victoria Song (39:25)

Right.

Alex Kranz (39:25)

And when it's used. Right.

Ed Zitron (39:26)

Yes, exactly. When it seems. When it's used, right. You know, what if it's someone for weight loss and they're using it with the instruction of a doctor, things great. Like, it's just as long as. As long as you're not just like, I don't know, getting it illegally off of TikTok. And illegally is probably not the term,

Alex Kranz (39:41)

but like, well, that's GLP3.

Victoria Song (39:43)

Well, now you can also go get compounded versions of GLP1, which are in a dubious state at this point in time, because it used to be okay to compound it, and then when there was a shortage, the FDA allowed that. And then once the shortage ended, they were like, like, no, no, no. So then these compounding pharmacies started, like altering the formula a little bit, adding a little bit of vitamin B12 or just different components in it so that they weren't like carbon copies of what the pharmaceutical companies were like, hey, hey, hey, this is copyrighted. Fuck off. But you know, like, that's also in of itself a problem because a lot of why are people going to these compounding pharmacies for their GLP1s? It's because insurance companies make you fit a very narrow criteria. Even though it could potentially help you with a number of, like, we have to understand that GLP1s are very recent for non diabetic use. Like, there's not a whole lot of data, right, for, no, not, not a year. But it's like in the span of medication, not that long. Like, you know, scientists study these things for a very long time and I think we're about at What, a decade, 15 years on GLPs, less for the, for the, the Manjaros and all that stuff. But it's like, you know, so we don't. The vast majority of the clinical studies that have been done on these medications have been on obese or diabetic populations. We don't know what a bodybuilder who is just taking this to optimize themselves. We don't know what the impact on their bodies will be. We find some promising research with people with pcos and fatty liver disease, which I have both of those, which is why my doctor is also. GLP makes sense for you and the metabolic dysfunction that you have. So it's not that doctors aren't using these in the arsenals to treat people who fit certain criteria, but there are people who could help, who could benefit from it, who don't fit these arbitrary insurance criteria. And so we have created this market, this alternative market for them to go to that can be fine in some spaces if you do your research and you do your vetting and you find a legitimate compound pharmacy that follows the rules. Or you could get it from some gray market guy named Bob Bo, Tim B. And I don't know what you're putting in your body. So like we're creating these things because we have made things so restrictive, so bad. And then we are monetizing the alternative solution which is, you know, ultimately giving a lot of health anxiety to people because why should they have to track their pee to know their hydration? Just look at the color of your pee. I don't know, like, you know, instead of putting the systemic things in place that could help people with their health and marketing these as tools, it's like all of a sudden, oh, you can get your blood test because Maybe you live in a rural area and you don't have time to go to the doctor. So will Aura will get your blood test for you and now you can track your metabolites and your blood in the Aura app.

Alex Kranz (42:45)

With no doctor's advice?

Victoria Song (42:47)

With no doctor's advice. Well, you could ask maybe the, the AI and the app or whatnot. And it's not just Aura. There's a lot of companies that are kind of pursuing this line and it comes from a place of like, yes, there is a gap in the healthcare system. Traditionally we're trying to fill that gap. And there are some people who that will help. I'm not gonna lie and say that there's no people that, that could benefit. But at the same time, the vast majority of healthy people don't need that. They don't need that health anxiety in their life. But we're just putting it on them because it's like, well, if you don't, you're going to, to die. And so it's just like, I, I, I would love for there to be more common sense and wellness. I would love us to have responsible conversations about whether or not you need to track XY70 biomarkers. You don't need to track 70 fucking biomarkers. You really don't.

Ed Zitron (43:33)

That data will not help you.

Victoria Song (43:35)

It won't. It won't.

Ed Zitron (43:38)

I have.

Alex Kranz (43:38)

Is it kind of like, have you guys done it? Like. Cause I'm just curious, is it like when you go and you would pay to, to give someone all of your genetic material so they could test it to find out whether or not like, your family was right, like your family makeup.

Victoria Song (43:54)

We call it longevity tech, which is just another word for fucking bullshit. Sorry, wellness.

Ed Zitron (44:00)

Oh yeah.

Victoria Song (44:01)

But like, it's this weird, you know, who is the bloody baroness who's bathing in the blood of virgins to appear younger and live longer. It's the same kind of fear from Silicon Valley where they're like, we are deathly afraid of death. So longevity tech and you can optim your life and you can study all these metrics about yourself and then you'll be able to live a better, healthier life without having to go to the doctor as often. And it's just like there's a lot of problems with this narrative and you have Maha co adopting it in some ways. I've, I've seen health tech become weirdly right wing over the last couple of weeks and months where I'm just like, I don't know how I feel about this. I don't know how I feel about RFK Jr going like every American wear a wearable. I'm just like posting my human bullshit.

Ed Zitron (44:50)

We can't know everything. There is a world of mystery. And also, even knowing all of this stuff doesn't do anything. I've said this before on the podcast. I have four years of sleep data, if not more, and I cannot tell you anything other than generally I sleep about seven and a half hours. No, I'm. That's my actual secret to all of this. The only reason I can put out 10,000 words a week is I sleep seven and a half to eight hours a without fail. I prioritize sleep. And it's funny because it's like of all the fitness things, sleep supplement. Sorry, different supplements. I've tried weird tricks sleep. And I don't even mean it in like a facetious way. I just mean like, yeah, this, that's the one thing I can be like. Yeah, when I do that, I feel better. When I don't sleep, I feel way worse.

Victoria Song (45:36)

Yeah, I mean that. That's why they say sleep, diet and exercise. It's just always, always boils down to like those three things. And yes, there are conditions that kind of make it difficult for certain people over others. If you have metabolic dysfunction, yeah, well, the diet part is going to be a little harder for you and there are treatments for that. That makes sense, but it fundamentally will always boil down to sleep, diet and exercise.

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Victoria Song (49:05)

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Ed Zitron (49:09)

I also want to be clear about something though, because it was lost earlier. We've had emails about it. I think it's fine. There were some people I've got emails from. I forget when it was brought up in the past where it's like, oh, the judgment of people who use GLP to lose weight. I think it's fucking. I've had weight issues my whole life. I think however, people want to lose weight, as long as it's done in a safe manner. As long as it's Done.

Alex Kranz (49:32)

I'm on one and it's fucking sick. It's absolute magic.

Ed Zitron (49:36)

It's fucking cool.

Alex Kranz (49:38)

I love it. It makes sense for me.

Ed Zitron (49:39)

As long as it's not depriving diabetics of getting the things they need.

Alex Kranz (49:42)

Diabetic, right?

Ed Zitron (49:43)

That's the one thing, right?

Alex Kranz (49:44)

Like, as long as the diabetics and people with metabolic issues who need it to survive are having it, and we don't have a shortage, it's really great for me, it's like, oh, I talk about it. I call it the wing index. VY's had to hear about this before.

Victoria Song (49:58)

There's something called the wing index talked about.

Ed Zitron (50:00)

Yeah, the wing index.

Victoria Song (50:01)

How many and how many wings do

Alex Kranz (50:03)

you eat before you are on a GLP? 1 versus how many do you eat after? Because some of us, like Vy and I were talking, I was like a 15 wing girlie.

Ed Zitron (50:15)

Hell, yeah.

Alex Kranz (50:15)

And now I'm a six. And I look at that and I'm like, that's sad. But then I'm like, was 15 good? No, it was delicious.

Ed Zitron (50:22)

It was, yeah. I was gonna say it was the

Alex Kranz (50:25)

best thing in the world. Do I miss that?

Victoria Song (50:27)

My wing index? No, my wing index was four and now it's half of one. That's not great. I'm having a different experience with glp, St Krantz's. It's on one's different.

Alex Kranz (50:41)

Everyone.

Victoria Song (50:42)

And also, I didn't want to be on one. I was told to be on one because of. Of metabolic dysfunction was causing weight gain. And so I needed the extra help to kind of fix the metabolic dysfunction and reverse some negative trends in my liver. So that was like a very lengthy conversation I had with my doctor over three, four months. So, you know, it was a informed decision to go on it. And then as soon as I went on it, I started having clown nightmares, and that was not fun. And I started having nightmares.

Alex Kranz (51:15)

I did not realize that's why I had nightmares. But, yeah, apparently GLP1 can create really vivid nightmares. Early on, I thought I was just having a moment and Vy told me and I was like, oh.

Bowen Yang (51:25)

Oh.

Ed Zitron (51:25)

I thought it was clown specific.

Victoria Song (51:27)

Oh, no. I had a dream that my spouse's ex was chasing me on a cruise ship with a knife, and I was like, this bitch is crazy. And then she turned into Pennywise the clown from it, and I was like, oh, no, she really crazy. And then I woke up almost screaming. And apparently it's because, like, a small percentage of people who take GLP1s have crazy dreams on Them. And like I was on the intro dose when I was getting these side effects and my doctor was like, you know, most people don't get side effects on the introduce you are special girl. And I was like, oh, cool, great. So you're telling me that food aversion is not normal on the introdose? Because I can't look at food sometimes. And it's, it's, it's a very, it's a very troubling.

Ed Zitron (52:15)

This is why I like the doctor I've had for the last few years in Vegas, because I don't get any of this normal people, I don't, I don't hear about the mean or the media. And I just did. He has to try and pretend that I'm like, similar to other people because I am not like it. And most of the time it's just me being like, is this bad? And he's like, no, it's. I feel like the entire problem of everything we're talking about in these conversations is this is trying to push everybody towards the mean. Trying to make everyone like everyone else in a way that's literally not like, not like I feel like the mean is also a terrible way to do health in general. Just the amount of food you need.

Alex Kranz (52:59)

Society, right? Like, we're all different. Everybody's got different things. Some people got heart issues, some people got fatty livers, some people got the diabetes. Sorry, I'm of an age. The beatus that I will always think of him every single time.

Ed Zitron (53:16)

Mr. Brimley.

Alex Kranz (53:17)

Yeah, Mr. Brimley. And you know, everybody is a little different. And when we don't allow for that, when these fitness influencers and these companies push things and say this is going to fix you, it's a flat out lie. Because they don't know and they can't promise that and they shouldn't. And, and I know we were kind of going all through it. I still get really upset with the companies like Google who are profiting enormously off of this stuff. They have no issue just raking in billions in cash from advertisers and from these influencers and from viewpoints just to make a buck. They're just like, yeah, this is just an industry.

Victoria Song (53:56)

You are the product.

Alex Kranz (53:57)

It's not our fault.

Victoria Song (53:58)

I hate that. I hate that. You are the product now. Your attention is a product. Your body is a product. Everything about you is being monetized to be a product. And it's like you don't do the buying anymore. You are the data. Like smart glasses. Why do they Want to put cameras on these smart glasses so that they can get data from the camera. Why do they want to.

Alex Kranz (54:17)

Everybody always view. Wants to like record their first person point of view, of course.

Ed Zitron (54:22)

Which looks like shit.

Alex Kranz (54:23)

Not what the commercial said.

Ed Zitron (54:25)

It looks like boiled ass. Every here's a hater moment. I think the video from those things looks weird.

Victoria Song (54:32)

Weird.

Ed Zitron (54:33)

I think it looks strange. I don't like it. I feel like I'm sitting on top of somebody's head.

Victoria Song (54:38)

I mean. Because you are.

Alex Kranz (54:40)

Yes.

Bowen Yang (54:40)

Yeah.

Ed Zitron (54:40)

I mean, I know. I know. That's why, like it's. But that's not a pleasant feeling. I don't want to be ratatouille.

Alex Kranz (54:48)

Just like the vertical video wasn't attractive.

Victoria Song (54:50)

Right. Like, we're all used to vertical video.

Ed Zitron (54:53)

I like that. I like my 69 situation. 1610.

Alex Kranz (54:57)

Oh, yeah, yeah. Everything around you.

Ed Zitron (55:00)

I want a classic wide frame.

Bowen Yang (55:02)

Yeah.

Ed Zitron (55:02)

It's just. I'm. I am really. I do think we're going to like. I.

Jacob Goldstein (55:08)

No one.

Ed Zitron (55:08)

No one fucking believes me. But I do think a lot of this stuff is going to go away the moment they realize how actually expensive it is to run this shit. And on top of the fact that just no one's really making any money out of this AI Health stuff because where's the product? It's like, yeah, I want the product. Yeah, but like you're getting. But they don't know how to productize it from there. They don't know how to like, like make a ton of money from that. Evidence being that nobody has made a ton of money from that. Even Claude Code. The supposedly most important thing ever. That isn't only about $100 million a month in revenue. Andrew Huberman probably makes that from various snake oils he boils in his garage.

Victoria Song (55:51)

The thing about health. The thing about health, though, it is the most valuable thing you have. You will. I think Alexandra Ocasio Cortez said something along these lines several years ago. And it stuck in my brain where it's just like, you will. Most people. Un. You know, most people, right. Will basically do anything to live a little bit longer. That's rich people. That's poor people. Nobody wants to die. I mean, like, there's a few select. There's a select few who court death for whatever reason. But most people don't want to die. They want just a little bit more time. And so health is your most valuable possession that you have. It's priceless because as soon as your health goes, your quality of life goes. And I think companies know this and they know if they can scare you, if they can fear monger you into saying, we have a solution so that you will live longer. People will pay out the nose for that. And they're just waiting to get that thing that will be like, oh, you will do this. Like smartwatches. When it was just counting your steps. Didn't fucking matter. They were having a hard time getting people to buy those things. The fashion Apple Watch edition. Yeah, that didn't work either. But as soon as the Apple Watch was like, we'll save your life if you have a cardiac event event.

Alex Kranz (57:03)

Yeah.

Victoria Song (57:04)

People started buying them. They started becoming.

Alex Kranz (57:06)

Yeah.

Ed Zitron (57:06)

That was kind of cool, though. Like, that it could do the EKG thing and. But I'm sure that there's something bad.

Alex Kranz (57:12)

I would argue Apple is a big reason why we have this. I mean, obviously there's like the Alex Jones and the Joe Rogans of the world and everything like that and the whole like influencer economy and love to push through your protein powders. But a big part of this was Apple. Back. This is my hater section. A big part of this was Apple. When Apple came out, they launched that watch. It did fuck all. Nobody knew what to use it for. I had one. I called it My great regret. Capital letters every single time, even when I said it out loud. And that was because it was useless and they were desperate to find a use for it. They found a use with the EKG stuff and it was a genuinely useful thing. People started buying it for that reason.

Victoria Song (57:50)

Right.

Alex Kranz (57:50)

I cannot tell you how many people I know who bought a watch for an elderly parent so that they could have that extra safety net. And now they're like, okay, well, we still have to make money off of this. But we already did that and we have to grow and we have to keep growing. If we don't grow, if we don't grow, we die. And so what do they do? They push further into wellness in places where Apple and a lot of these companies have zero business being. And they're doing it exclusively because they're like, we need new markets to sell our products at. That's it.

Victoria Song (58:21)

I will say Apple is much more responsible in the wellness space than other. They do a lot in clinical research. They are very clear about what their products do and don't do. I do not hate Apple as much in this space as other kind of more snake oily whatchamacallit. They did. They kick it off. They kicked off the advanced health features, but like, that's the. Again, here's the Difference. Here's the distinction. Health features versus wellness features. They're different. They're different. There's a different grade.

Alex Kranz (58:53)

Isn't Apple one of the ones who did push wellness because some of their features weren't immediately approved? Weren't being like, like, yeah, they just weren't approved. And so they were like, oh, this is a wellness feature Initially.

Victoria Song (59:05)

Well, it was more like they were. They. I wouldn't say it was them that were the first ones, cuz ekg, I think was the first time we saw like a big difference in terms of like the alerts. Anything that is diagnostic, they very much go through the. It's not diagnostic, but anything that's diagnostic adjacent they will go through the clearance process for. But again, to answer the question I asked you guys earlier, blood oxygen, that's a wellness feature because there's nothing that you do with that information. It's just a spot check. It's not telling you that you have sleep apnea. It's not telling you that you have anything. It is for your fun that you get to see that what your blood oxygen is. And so that is a wellness feature. And okay.

Alex Kranz (59:43)

That Apple risks a lot of time and effort and lawsuits to put into their watches and are now. Aren't they still embroiled in a lawsuit about it?

Victoria Song (59:53)

They're still embroiled in a lawsuit about it, but they're no longer banned from importing it. So, you know, you can still have those features on the thing. But, you know, blood oxygen, I don't think is that useful of a metric. If you need it, just get a pulse oximeter. I don't think a smartwatch is. You know, I've had some readers tell me that they find it useful for their parents with respiratory issues, but I just think you should have a pulse oximeter because this is going to be a gruesome story, but when my mom was dying, like actually the day she died, it was because she was having respiratory failure from als. Her lungs were. Were paralyzed basically, and she couldn't breathe and get enough oxygen into them. So her blood oxygen was dropping rapidly. And you know, I had the pulse oximeter and she was getting to a point where her blood saturation levels were like in the high 40s to low 60s, which is death time, because anything under 90, you're supposed to go to a hospital. So, you know, that was. My family's full of doctors. So this was supervised. Right. My family's full of doctors and they all knew what that meant. And you know, I'm a werewolves Reporter. My cousin was freaking out. She thought the pulse oximeter couldn't possibly be saying 48 because that meant death. So I was like, well, I got an apple watch. Let me put this on my dying mother. And let me tell you, it couldn't read it. There was no reading.

Ed Zitron (61:14)

Duh, duh, duh, duh, duh. Fucking hell.

Alex Kranz (61:18)

Did it put up an emoji or anything?

Jacob Goldstein (61:19)

No.

Victoria Song (61:20)

When it got a reading, no, it just was like. It just said it couldn't get a reading and you put it on and

Ed Zitron (61:23)

it immediately said, you should try, Stan.

Victoria Song (61:26)

Yeah, I mean, like, this is not a story that I frequently tell just because it's a sad story. And then I'm also just like, I feel guilt. Cause I'm just like, oh, I put an apple watch on my mom while she was.

Ed Zitron (61:38)

No, no, no, no. Bullshit. You tried to confirm something. You actually tried and you tried. You were trying to confirm also your mother was dying. You could have done anything. In that case, like, you reacted more normally than I would if such a thing was happening.

Jacob Goldstein (61:54)

Happening.

Victoria Song (61:55)

Ah, I had my. Don't worry, I reacted not normally later that night.

Ed Zitron (62:00)

Again, completely forgivable, considering.

Victoria Song (62:03)

Yeah, yeah.

Ed Zitron (62:03)

Be kinder to yourself.

Victoria Song (62:05)

But no, I was just very much like, well, what are the opportunities for a werewolves tester to be with someone who is very identifully, identifiably below 90 in terms of a pulse oximeter and to see whether this feature actually, actually works on someone who is so low. And my finding was, no, this is why you need a pulse oximeter. Because if you are someone who has to worry about that, you shouldn't really rely on a smartwatch. Wellness.

Ed Zitron (62:33)

Clearly calm.

Alex Kranz (62:34)

It's the same with, like, I was gonna say, same dark story. Similarly dark. But my mom's still alive, but she had a stroke and had to go on a heart monitor. And it's. And she was like, well, why can't I just use my apple watch? Because it's got AFIB detection. And they were like, because it's a garbage heart rate monitor. You need one, like, over your heart. We want to see every beat of that thing. Your wearables aren't going to do that. And her mind was blown and she hated it. And we ended up using the watch.

Victoria Song (63:02)

It's only for healthy people with a baseline. Like, that's, that's, that's all these wearables are. It's just establishing what your baseline is. And like, accuracy is actually not the most important thing for most wearables. It's consistency. So if it's consistently inaccurate by the same amount, you can still use it to judge changes in your baseline. But yeah, obviously I live and breathe this shit. So I get really mad when I see influencers just talking out their fucking ass about clinically back this. They're like, it's clinically proven. Nothing's clinically proven. Clinically proven doesn't mean shit. It's a marketing term especially, you know, I actually interviewed a doctor and I was just like, what is clinically? Whatever meant. And then she was just like, there's a whole wide range of what clinically backed or clinically tested means. It could be in certain cases, depending on how a study is designed, it could be someone just self reporting their results in a scientific setting. And that is technically clinical. So, you know, next time you hear clinically validated, clinically proven and marketing materials, I want you to put your little thinking cap on and go, but is it really, really, Is it really? What does that strict mean? Look, what does that mean? What are they actually studying? How are they validating this thing? Like, I just want you to take the extra critical thinking step and just don't go like, wow, science words like, that's, that's all I want for people to, to. Next time you see an influencer in a lululemon set going, oh, my God, this greens powder is clinically proven to help your cognition.

Jacob Goldstein (64:40)

No.

Alex Kranz (64:40)

Well, that's not clinical to that whole four humors thing we've been seeing, right, where everybody's talking about your cortisol and all your other different hormones. And if I hear one more time,

Victoria Song (64:51)

I hear one more someone talking about inflammation.

Alex Kranz (64:56)

I was like, if it was this easy to release our cortisol, no one would have stress. You know how you get rid of cortisol, lower your cortisol levels, be less stressed, and exercise. That's it.

Ed Zitron (65:07)

That was the. I've been getting random itching when I fall asleep, and I've read so many things like, yeah, maybe you're stressed. It's like, cool, thank you.

Victoria Song (65:16)

Or you have dry skin moisturized. Do you moisturize Ed?

Ed Zitron (65:19)

Yeah, I do, I do. And it doesn't work. So, I mean, it's probably something fun. Someone's gonna email me. If you email me and say, it's like a. Just a. Just want to be clear. Any listeners who email and try and diagnose me, I don't want to fucking know and I'm gonna blast you.

Alex Kranz (65:35)

Everyone email him.

Ed Zitron (65:36)

If you email me any kind of diagnosis, I must be fucking clear. I will light you up like a Christmas tree. On that note, I think we can call it there as we've had a wonderful hater session. Victoria Song of course, from the Verge. Victoria, always a pleasure to have you.

Victoria Song (65:55)

Thank you for having me. I hate everything.

Ed Zitron (65:59)

And Alex Granz, love having you too.

Alex Kranz (66:01)

Oh my God, I hated every part of this podcast so and in every part of the world right now did I did I get my hate up?

Ed Zitron (66:11)

That was great. The hate ometer I've got going is absolutely losing it.

Alex Kranz (66:15)

But this was lovely.

Ed Zitron (66:16)

Thank you everyone for listening. This has been lovely. You'll have monologue of course this week and yeah, catch you soon.

Bowen Yang (66:30)

Thank you.

Ed Zitron (66:30)

Thank you for listening to Better Offline. The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song is Mattasowski. You can check out more of his music and audio projects@matasowski.com m a t t o s o W-K-I.com. you can email me at ezeteroffline.com or visit betteroffline.com to find more podcast links and of course, my newsletter. I also really recommend you go to chat. Where's your ED app to visit the Disney Discord and go to R betteroffline to check out our Reddit. Thank you so much for listening.

Victoria Song (67:02)

Better Offline is a production of Cool Zone Media.

Alex Kranz (67:05)

For more from Cool Zone Media, Visit

Victoria Song (67:07)

our website coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Matt Rogers (67:35)

This is Matt Rogers from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

Bowen Yang (67:38)

This is Bowen Yang from Las Culta Rise with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

Matt Rogers (67:41)

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Bowen Yang (67:46)

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Jacob Goldstein (67:50)

Problem.

Bowen Yang (67:51)

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Matt Rogers (67:54)

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Bowen Yang (68:01)

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Bowen Yang (68:09)

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Matt Rogers (68:15)

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Jacob Goldstein (68:16)

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Ed Zitron (68:24)

Almost anything.

Jacob Goldstein (68:25)

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