Radio Better Offline: David "Shingy" Shing

Summary

Podcast Summary: Better Offline - "Radio Better Offline: David 'Shingy' Shing"

Host: Ed Zitron
Guest: George M. Johnson (David "Shingy" Shing)
Release Date: April 2, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of Better Offline, host Ed Zitron engages in a deep and insightful conversation with George M. Johnson, also known as David "Shingy" Shing. The discussion centers around George's extensive experience in the tech and advertising industries, his innovative approaches to creativity, and his perspectives on the evolving landscape of generative AI and its integration into advertising. The episode delves into the challenges and opportunities presented by AI, the tension between mass production and authentic creativity, and the role of nostalgia in modern content creation.

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George’s Background and Current Work (00:02:13 – 04:07)

George begins by outlining his current endeavors post his rise to fame in 2014 at AOL. He is actively involved in speaking and educating within the tech community and runs a creative house established during the pandemic. This creative house offers a broad range of services from iconography to strategic consulting, catering to both large institutions and small startups.

George M. Johnson (02:52): “I'm out speaking and educating. That's right, what I'm known for. I also have a creative house that does everything from iconography all the way through to strategy.”

He also manages an advisory practice, providing insights and strategies to help businesses navigate the complexities of the modern digital landscape.

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Experiences at AOL (04:07 – 05:50)

Ed reminisces about George's time at AOL, highlighting his role in managing media and marketing across 13 European countries. George recounts launching a series of websites and advertising platforms, aiming to innovate AOL's brand presence in Europe despite budget constraints.

George M. Johnson (05:42): “We invented an ad called Devil, which was like this incredible new magazine-esque style ad takeover that the AAB ended up picking up and running with.”

George emphasizes the importance of creative ingenuity when financial resources are limited, demonstrating how strategic persona creation can compensate for budget deficits.

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Persona and Branding (05:50 – 07:02)

Addressing the challenges of brand management under tight budgets, George discusses creating a persona to maintain AOL's market presence in Europe. This approach allowed for sustained visibility without substantial financial investment.

George M. Johnson (04:07): “You have to think about a way to be in the marketplace. So I created a persona.”

This strategy underscores the significance of branding and identity in successfully navigating competitive markets, especially when traditional advertising avenues are constrained.

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Generative AI: Potential and Challenges (06:06 – 08:19)

The conversation shifts to the realm of generative AI, where George expresses a largely positive outlook despite acknowledging its limitations. He appreciates AI's ability to enhance creative processes, such as extending backgrounds without the need for reshooting.

George M. Johnson (06:37): “Yeah, it hallucinates occasionally, but I think it's great because if I can extend a background without having to go reshoot it, that's pretty good. And I'm able to change it out.”

Ed, however, remains skeptical, questioning the sustainability of AI advancements given the significant financial losses reported by major AI companies like OpenAI.

Ed Zitron (06:28): “Do you think it's a bubble?”

George counters by noting that AI has been developing for decades and still holds substantial potential.

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Monetization and Sustainability of AI Tools (08:19 – 09:50)

A critical discussion unfolds around the monetization of AI tools. Ed points out that despite the rapid advancements, companies like OpenAI are incurring substantial losses, raising concerns about the long-term viability of generative AI.

Ed Zitron (09:09): “It just continues to do what everything else does. It tails off and becomes a niche, which is okay.”

George maintains optimism, suggesting that AI tools will eventually stabilize as demand for innovative advertising solutions grows.

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AI Mastering and Creative Tools (09:09 – 13:16)

The duo explores the practical applications of AI in creative industries, specifically in audio mastering. George praises tools like voice AI for their ability to enhance audio quality without requiring extensive technical expertise.

George M. Johnson (12:22): “I use voice AI. I think it's voice AI. I've used a couple of them.”

Ed acknowledges the usefulness but highlights the financial challenges associated with scaling these AI solutions effectively.

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Integrating Ads with AI Platforms (13:17 – 20:31)

One of the pivotal segments addresses the intricate relationship between advertising technology (AdTech) and generative AI. George explains the difficulty in seamlessly integrating ads into AI platforms, attributing it to the presentation layer's inadequacies.

George M. Johnson (20:31): “Everything else in the background that is actually using lots of big data to be able to represent the right type of context to you... the presentation layer... is terrible in comparison.”

Ed probes further into why AdTech hasn't fully embraced AI monetization, suggesting that the complexity and unpredictability of generative AI outputs pose significant challenges.

Ed Zitron (17:20): “The training data required to make Sora better does not exist.”

This underscores a broader issue: the gap between AI innovation and practical, scalable advertising solutions.

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The Role of Generative AI in Ad Tech (20:31 – 37:24)

The discussion intensifies around the practicalities and economic implications of incorporating generative AI into advertising. George touches on the uncanny valley effect of AI-generated ads, where they often lack emotional depth and authenticity.

George M. Johnson (15:14): “It's got a dystopian, I guess it kind of feels a little bit like... It's got sheen.”

Ed elaborates on the financial impracticalities, noting that without effective monetization strategies, AI-generated ads may not sustain themselves.

Ed Zitron (19:03): “...the generative AI features of Firefly, for example. The same.”

They discuss potential shifts from traditional Cost Per Mille (CPM) models to Cost Per Acquisition (CPA), considering the personalized nature of generative AI.

This segment highlights the challenges AdTech faces in balancing personalization with scalability and maintaining authentic engagement.

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Nostalgia and Authenticity in Creative Content (49:24 – 63:28)

A significant portion of the conversation delves into the craving for nostalgia in modern creative content. George laments the loss of authenticity and craftsmanship, contrasting it with the mass-produced, AI-generated content that often lacks emotional resonance.

George M. Johnson (50:00): “There's something truly unique about it.”

Ed echoes these sentiments, emphasizing that nostalgia arises from a desire for content that feels handcrafted and genuine.

Ed Zitron (54:14): “...feels like the mechanisms of creatives more than anything gave a shit.”

They discuss how nostalgia serves as a counterbalance to the overwhelming influence of AI and automation, representing a yearning for times when creativity was more personal and thoughtful.

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Personal Tech Usage and Creative Processes (63:28 – End)

Transitioning to personal experiences, George shares his use of Oura Ring and Somni devices to monitor sleep and overall well-being. He emphasizes the importance of using technology as a tool for self-improvement rather than a source of constant distraction.

George M. Johnson (65:28): “I have this concept of addition of one. It really is just for me. And it doesn't matter if it doesn't scale.”

Ed reflects on his own relationship with technology, advocating for a balance between utilizing tech for productivity and maintaining creative authenticity.

Ed Zitron (67:02): “...the desperation for engagement is kind of sucking the joy out of even the process.”

The conversation concludes with a mutual recognition of the need to preserve craftsmanship and genuine creativity in the face of burgeoning AI technologies.

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Conclusion

In this engaging episode, Better Offline sheds light on the intricate dynamics between generative AI, advertising technology, and the authenticity of creative content. George "Shingy" Johnson provides a nuanced perspective on the potential of AI tools while highlighting the significant challenges that impede their seamless integration into AdTech. The discussion underscores a broader cultural shift, where nostalgia and a yearning for authentic, crafted experiences emerge as counterforces to the impersonal nature of mass-produced, AI-generated content. Listeners are left contemplating the balance between innovation and the preservation of genuine creativity in an increasingly automated world.

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Notable Quotes:

• George M. Johnson (06:37): “Yeah, it hallucinates occasionally, but I think it's great because if I can extend a background without having to go reshoot it, that's pretty good. And I'm able to change it out.”

• Ed Zitron (06:28): “Do you think it's a bubble?”

• George M. Johnson (15:14): “It's got a dystopian, I guess it kind of feels a little bit like... It's got sheen.”

• Ed Zitron (19:03): “...the generative AI features of Firefly, for example. The same.”

• George M. Johnson (50:00): “There's something truly unique about it.”

• Ed Zitron (54:14): “...feels like the mechanisms of creatives more than anything gave a shit.”

• George M. Johnson (65:28): “I have this concept of addition of one. It really is just for me. And it doesn't matter if it doesn't scale.”

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This summary encapsulates the core discussions and insights from the episode, offering a comprehensive overview for listeners who seek to understand the intricate interplay between technology, creativity, and authenticity in today's digital age.

Transcript

[Shannon Schuyler]

In a world of economic uncertainty and workplace transformation, learn to lead by example. From visionary C Suite executives like Shannon Schuyler of PwC and Will Pearson of iHeartMedia, the Good Teacher explains the great teacher inspires.

[Brendan Patrick Hughes]

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[Shannon Schuyler]

Listen to leading by example executives making an impact on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Brendan Patrick Hughes]

45 years ago, a Virginia soul band called the Edge of Daybreak recorded their debut album Behind Bars. Record collectors consider it a masterpiece. The band's surviving members are long out of prison, but they say they have some unfinished business.

[Ed Zitron]

The Edge of Daybreak, Eyes of Love was supposed to have been followed up by another album.

[Brendan Patrick Hughes]

Listen to Soul incarcerated on the iHeartRadio Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Brendan Patrick Hughes, host of Divine Intervention.

[Ed Zitron]

This is a story about radical nuns.

[Brendan Patrick Hughes]

In combat boots and wild haired priests trading blows with J. Edgar Hoover in a hell bent effort to sabotage a war.

[George M. Johnson]

J. Edgar Hoover was furious. He was out of his mind and.

[Brendan Patrick Hughes]

He wanted to bring the Catholic left to its knees. Listen to Divine intervention on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ed Zitron]

I'm ready to fight.

[George M. Johnson]

Oh, this is Fighting Words.

[Ed Zitron]

Okay, I'll put the hammer back.

[George M. Johnson]

Hi, I'm George M. Johnson, a best selling author with the second most banned book in America. Now more than ever, we need to use our voices to fight back.

[Ed Zitron]

Part of the power of black queer creativity is the fact that we got us.

[George M. Johnson]

You know, we are the greatest culture.

[Shannon Schuyler]

Makers in world history.

[George M. Johnson]

Listen to Fighting words on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or you get your podcast call Zone Media.

[Ed Zitron]

Hi, Mimo, Mo, Ed Zitron. This is better offline. We're in iheartradio studio in beautiful New York City. Better offline. Today I am joined by a man who in 2014 rose to fame after coming AOL's digital profit. He joins me in the studio today, David Ching, best known as Shingy. David.

[George M. Johnson]

Hey, Ed. How are you, mate?

[Ed Zitron]

I am fantastic.

[George M. Johnson]

Hello.

[Ed Zitron]

Oh, yeah, this is the most normal show in tech. What are you up to these days? Shingy?

[George M. Johnson]

Great question. There's three things I'm primarily up to.

[Ed Zitron]

Okay.

[George M. Johnson]

I'm out speaking and educating. That's right, what I'm known for. I also have a creative house.

[Ed Zitron]

Nice.

[George M. Johnson]

That started around Pandemic Times.

[Ed Zitron]

What's a creative house do?

[George M. Johnson]

It does everything from Iconography all the way through to strategy. So all the way through iconography, you happen to be wearing a brand on your T shirt right now. Somebody designed that.

[Ed Zitron]

Okay, so a design thing. Cool.

[George M. Johnson]

And then the other flip side is a advisory practice.

[Ed Zitron]

That's cool.

[George M. Johnson]

And it's institutional advisory, as well as small startups, which has really been research for me, which has been amazing.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah. As a fellow consultant with a podcast, it's always good to meet another one. So you. It's been a while since you rose to fame. What kind of hap. What kind of happened? Because you. I remember I was in the Bay Area at the time when I saw you, you arise on MSNBC and then just went and did other things. I had to go and make some mistakes in my life, I guess. What was it you did at Aotwell?

[George M. Johnson]

So I ran 13 countries for them. I ran the media and marketing for them throughout Europe.

[Ed Zitron]

But what did that actually entail?

[George M. Johnson]

I ran 13 countries with multi million views.

[Ed Zitron]

Yes, but what did you do each day?

[George M. Johnson]

Because I launched a series of websites, then I launched a series of ad platforms, and I helped change the iconography for aol. And when you build a new brand and you don't have any budget to support it.

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[George M. Johnson]

You have to think about a way to be in the marketplace. So I created a Persona.

[Ed Zitron]

Wait, did you not have, like, much budget?

[George M. Johnson]

Oh, yeah, we did. But not in Europe.

[Ed Zitron]

No, not in Europe, No.

[George M. Johnson]

Because what happens when a big company, you could probably appreciate this. If one division performs poorly, everyone suffers.

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[George M. Johnson]

So if you're not close to the sun, you're not going to get all the budget. It's just how it works.

[Ed Zitron]

It's funny because your whole thing, don't say this is an insult. Got kind of flattened to that one picture of you with the kind of msnbc. Yes, the msnbc. Yeah. Because. And then there was that Guardian interview. It's like you drew a zebra. It said you showed someone aol a picture of a zebra.

[George M. Johnson]

Zebra pants.

[Ed Zitron]

Zebra pants, possibly.

[George M. Johnson]

It's just I was wearing them.

[Ed Zitron]

You're wearing them. Nice. Yeah, it's. It's funny because you've become somewhat of like a. Like a. I want to say like a character with a meme. A meme. I think meme's fair, but it's more than.

[George M. Johnson]

The character's probably a little underrated.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, it's just because you have a real job, it seems, and you have this whole time, despite the fact that I've been told, like, oh, this guy just, like, shows up and Says he's the digital prophet. And I was genuinely curious about, like, it. I'm excited.

[George M. Johnson]

I never really told anybody the mystery. I want to hear the industry and the magic of it still replicates today. So I would go in and get interviews, get audiences with brands we could never be in front of. Like what, like what brand?

[Ed Zitron]

Like. Yeah, what kind of brands?

[George M. Johnson]

Nike.

[Ed Zitron]

Nike? Why couldn't AOL get in front of them?

[George M. Johnson]

Well, they could, but they're going to just sell ads. I'm trying to sell innovation on top of the ads.

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[George M. Johnson]

Much bigger than we would ever be able to do.

[Ed Zitron]

And what would that innovation manifest as? What were you selling to Nike, for example? I know, this is just an example.

[George M. Johnson]

We invented an ad called Devil, which was like this incredible new magazine esque style ad takeover that the AAB ended up picking up and running with. So we were just building things that were radically different than spots and dots that sales teams are selling.

[Ed Zitron]

Right. So how do you feel about AI? How are you feeling about all this? Because look, you were part of a hype cycle. So end of 2014 was like, was like very hype driven time. It's like the, the sexiest time in indiegogo and Kickstarter land, I would say back then. What do you think of AI? How do you feel about it? Do you think it's a bubble?

[George M. Johnson]

No.

[Ed Zitron]

No.

[George M. Johnson]

Well, it's also been around for 40, 50 years.

[Ed Zitron]

Right. So generative AI, specifically.

[George M. Johnson]

What do I think about that?

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, sure.

[George M. Johnson]

Think it's magical.

[Ed Zitron]

Really?

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah. It hallucinates occasionally, but I think it's great because if I can extend a background without having to go reshoot it, that's pretty good. And I'm able to change it out.

[Ed Zitron]

Can you do that though?

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah. Have you not been. You haven't checked out Firefly or.

[Ed Zitron]

I have. I read your substack. I do read your blog. It's just right now, as a hype man, I don't mean that derisively. I mean that like your job, your job is ostensibly hype. Right now it feels like there is this marketing dissonance between Firefly, which I, I'm aware, and I know there are lots of people who listen to the show who are going to be very angry at me that we're even talking about Adobe AI. Calm down everyone. It's Shing. Allow him in. But it feels like you've got this massive business failure happening in the background. Billions of dollars burned from OpenAI, but you've got some utility. How do you balance that? Like how do you?

[George M. Johnson]

In what characterization of it? You said generative AI and then open AI.

[Ed Zitron]

Well, I'm talking about the fact that you're hyping up something that is unsustainable right now.

[George M. Johnson]

Which bit?

[Ed Zitron]

I mean, the generative AI features of Firefly, for example. The same.

[George M. Johnson]

Why is it not sustainable?

[Ed Zitron]

Well, because OpenAI burns $5 billion a year. They still haven't worked out any profitability for any of these models.

[George M. Johnson]

Even Deep Seagull one.

[Ed Zitron]

Yes, but Fireflies run on generative models.

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah. Right. And they help create ad performances at scale.

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[George M. Johnson]

So at some point in time, these things level out.

[Ed Zitron]

When. Because that's the thing. Like the amount.

[George M. Johnson]

When there's demand for better ads.

[Brendan Patrick Hughes]

Right.

[Ed Zitron]

I just feel like we're a little lost within the generative AI conversation as an industry.

[George M. Johnson]

Right. And I'm curious, do you play with Runway?

[Ed Zitron]

I've played with Sora a bit.

[George M. Johnson]

I just.

[Ed Zitron]

I found Runway to be really fucking mediocre.

[George M. Johnson]

Well, there's a dystopian to it, which is definitely. That shine will come off, and that production's gonna be pretty amazing. Single. Single tool that does one thing, no good. But a tool that allows you to master audio without an engineer. Pretty amazing.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, but does that exist yet?

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah, it does with voice AI.

[Ed Zitron]

Because Riverside is not good.

[George M. Johnson]

Riverside is a podcasting platform, and they.

[Ed Zitron]

Have AI mastering on it, God bless them.

[George M. Johnson]

But they're not just doing mastering so you can upload something to something like voice AI. And it's absolutely designed for mastering.

[Ed Zitron]

Right. But there is this massive financial problem at the side of this, that this stuff is burning so much money. And I guess you could have on device models, but that's nowhere near what I just. I don't know how you couch these two things.

[George M. Johnson]

Supply and demand. I mean, there's a massive supply for new ways of creating different tools. And the supply cycle is incredibly wide. It feels like back in the web 1.0 cycles.

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[George M. Johnson]

But now it has different tools that are much faster to build, but the demand isn't there. I think so.

[Ed Zitron]

I mean, I did a piece a few months ago. No, weeks ago. Jesus Christ. Time dilation, where it was like, copilot has like 11 million monthly active users, which is pretty piss poor. And that's Microsoft's. I am hearing that there are various companies, like eleven labs, which are kind of levelling out as far as user base goes. What happens if this doesn't get much bigger?

[George M. Johnson]

It just continues to do what everything else does. It tails off and becomes a niche, which is okay.

[Ed Zitron]

You think so?

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah, it's totally okay.

[Ed Zitron]

So you seem quite high on it. So what are you using then? Talk to me about the AI tools you use.

[George M. Johnson]

The obvious. I mean, I think chat's interesting. I think that Claude is interesting to help you do draft one. So those sort of tools are fine. I think Sora is. It seems interesting. But dystopian runaway works okay if you can actually model it correctly.

[Ed Zitron]

When you say dystopian, what do you mean?

[George M. Johnson]

Over glossy. Really hard to understand depth of field. Like it's. If you are going to be a deep practitioner, you know the sort of thing you want.

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[George M. Johnson]

To try and visualize that can be very difficult. And I think that's kind of the challenge today is these tools do remarkable amount of work. It's the matter of can you get it to do the work that you want it to do without taking more time than actually doing it physically with software. So it's just software and it's curious, but it's not. Here's what I am seeing. I'm seeing a consolidation of tools saying here's one tool that you log into and it does all these things for you, but it does all of them only. Okay. Yeah. So you have to splinter off and find something that does just what you want it to do. So focused and it, you know, better at book writing than maybe stories or better that drawing than maybe painting a landscape. I mean these articulations that become really just splinters of a certain technique today all corralled into one thing. And I don't think anything does a great job. Words are great. I think the agents.

[Ed Zitron]

I don't know if I agree on the word site.

[George M. Johnson]

I don't. Well, as a. But never.

[Ed Zitron]

And you still your points made.

[George M. Johnson]

But. But it's. It's way better than me as a first edit copywriter. So.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, but that's a skill issue. Shingy like. Like you could get better by writing more. You could write good. Like do you. Is your substack chatgpt written or Claude written?

[George M. Johnson]

No, but it's. But it's. You know, I think what's interesting about the tools, I don't want to have to necessarily become very technical when I'm wanting to shoot an idea of a landscape or something. By the way, I'm only using my own images and only purposely not using anything generative. It's all like photos from my own photo library. So no stock, no generative. Because until it's actually really good, as much as I'm an advocate for it I'm a better believer in craft than I am then so can these tools, like mastering for example, of sound. Love that, love that for a tool because I have no clue how to bring eqs up. I have no clue how to bring in any depth within a voice and no clue on that. So God bless.

[Ed Zitron]

And do you use it for that like you actually use it? What do you use for mastering it?

[George M. Johnson]

I use voice. I think it's voice AI. I've used a couple of them. And by the way, when you skim, you know, when I'm looking for something, it's typically at urgency, the levels are low and I can't seem to bring them up and they're over peaky. And then I use a service comes back, it's too peaky or it's got too much bass, I don't know. Right. So it's really about can I use things, tools that help get to a better artifact than the actual tools that I can use. Because democratization of tools means that everything is kind of flatlined. So I'm looking for things to become really interesting. I don't necessarily, I don't necessarily think that the quality of the end result is higher resolution enough, but it sure beats squeaky markers and bleed proof pads that we grew up with. So the efficiency of getting ideas out. Love that.

[Ed Zitron]

Right. But is it crafty if you're using generative AI?

[George M. Johnson]

Yes, I think it is. I think it's. I think analysis can use any tool. This just happens to be one of them today. Right now you talked about value though. You talked about this thing seemed to be bleeding money, et cetera, et cetera.

[Ed Zitron]

All of them.

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah. God bless.

[Ed Zitron]

What do you mean, God bless?

[George M. Johnson]

I mean that's going to be their problem at some point in time. They're going to have to factor that out and figure out a model that everyone's trying to generate these tools that can be the panacea and then they're going to make money on it at some point. Yeah, maybe.

[Ed Zitron]

We'll see.

[George M. Johnson]

It's just not all the tools are going to make money. You know that.

[Ed Zitron]

Sure. But none of the tools currently make money. Like that's. Yeah, that's kind of the thing. It just, it feels like an atypical hype cycle in that having lived through enough of these now, myself a little bit younger than you, I've never seen one that was just burning cash like this and it. But I've never seen one with more, nor have I ever seen one with more disconnection between the utility and the marketing hype, it feels like they are promising more than ever.

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah.

[Ed Zitron]

And we're in this weird, dissonant area where it's like, no one really knows what's going to happen.

[George M. Johnson]

Well, you know, I live in the space of ads still, so from an ad perspective, there is no shortage of demand. But.

[Ed Zitron]

But for what, though?

[George M. Johnson]

Ads.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, sure, but demand for ads. But what about generative? Like, where does Generative AI fit into this? Are you saying creative?

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah, Helping to create the ads. I think the ads that are creative with generative are pretty rubbish.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah.

[George M. Johnson]

But the truth is there's a demand for lots of ads because of just sheer audience growth. But the reality is that efficiency of. Can you make ads cheaper? That's a. That's a conundrum.

[Ed Zitron]

Because is Generative AI doing that?

[George M. Johnson]

I don't think so. I think they're doing some of it. Perhaps. Maybe they're doing an interesting background that would have taken you up, but it can't. It's not the whole thing. And by the way, if you and I were to look at a bunch of ads right now and try and pick with their AI or not AI, you would. I think nine out of 10 would get. We would know that it's written by AI.

[Ed Zitron]

There's like an uncanny valley feel to them.

[George M. Johnson]

It's got a dystopian, I guess it kind of feels a little bit like. And we've gone way beyond hallucination. We've gone into this kind of. You just know. You can just see it and feel it. It's cold, it's weird.

[Ed Zitron]

And the funny thing is, I think what you're talking about is not hallucination. It is actually an accurate depiction of something, but it's too accurate. It has this kind of sheen to its neck.

[George M. Johnson]

It does have sheen.

[Ed Zitron]

It feels like the movie AI. Ironically, I said that came off my head. I'm like, shit, I'm stupid anyway.

[George M. Johnson]

And the number of frames a second seem off. There's something very.

[Ed Zitron]

There's too much lighting.

[George M. Johnson]

I completely agree with you. But it's also where I see those sort of things used are in more kind of tonnage ads. Like things that are just trying to get a lot of these creatives saturating the marketplace, which ultimately, if we're not careful, will make ads more expensive. Meaning to get to Ed, the human at the end of it. If you've. If you've now just become completely oblivious or ignoring ads that feel like they're AI'd. Because unless that gets figured out, Right. You'll become blind to these AI ads. So to get to you is even going to be harder.

[Ed Zitron]

So this is the weird thing right now. Ads and AI don't seem to have touched that much. And I say this because there's a company. You heard of Perplexity?

[George M. Johnson]

Sure.

[Ed Zitron]

So Perplexity is allegedly. Hayden Field at CNBC reported this last year. They're apparently looking for like $55 CPM.

[George M. Johnson]

On what platform?

[Ed Zitron]

On their search net.

[George M. Johnson]

Their search platform.

[Ed Zitron]

But you've not really seen ads and AI touch like even Google's AI search. They just did ads.

[George M. Johnson]

No, I think Perplexity, if you were to give it a prompt and it recommended something that you were looking for. Let's assume you're looking for a piece of gear and they recommend a piece of gear versus these other 10 pieces of gear. That review is probably in their eyes. An ad.

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[George M. Johnson]

You know what I mean? It may not be a display ad, as we said before.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, but they're not doing ads yet. It's just.

[George M. Johnson]

No, but I'm saying they could be in the description.

[Ed Zitron]

Sure.

[George M. Johnson]

You're. Are they formally not doing ads or. They haven't.

[Ed Zitron]

They haven't started yet because they want to.

[George M. Johnson]

And when they do those ads, they will be subtle like that. They will be within descriptions. They will be contextually relevant to that person in terms of the totality of a story and not just a display.

[Ed Zitron]

I'm just.

[George M. Johnson]

I think it will be.

[Ed Zitron]

No, no, no, no. I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just wondering how they pull it off. Because the whole thing with hallucinations, you can't predict where an ad is going to appear or what it's going to appear next to. And I think the.

[George M. Johnson]

If it's with. With. If it's with words, the context is wider. You think so if it's with voice.

[Ed Zitron]

They'Re not gonna do voice.

[George M. Johnson]

Aravind's not, you know, it's like. It's just a wider context though. So let's. Let's just stream for a second. If you're able to do that, at least you've got a wider con concept of what the story is versus a display at around. Sure.

[Ed Zitron]

But I mean, I mean, just like practically speaking, if you vomit out a bunch of text, which may rip off a journalist outlet or two. How do you like. Perhaps I need to actually ask you the question. Why do you think that ads and AI really haven't touched it? Because ChatGPT doesn't monetize with that perplexity is Thinking about it or haven't Google AI has only just started considering it. Do you think it's a generative side like you've been in the ad slot for decades?

[George M. Johnson]

I guess it depends on. Depends on which place you want to sit in that question. Are you talking about me as somebody going to that tool to use it?

[Ed Zitron]

And I'm wondering why the companies themselves have been hesitant.

[George M. Johnson]

No, no, no. Hang on, let me, let me. Let's get back to the context real quick so I can understand the framing. Is it me going to Perplexity's website to be able to use its tool and it's folding in ads in the results of me using.

[Ed Zitron]

I mean on a grand generative. I mean on a grander perspective, like taking it away from just like the user right now. You've been in ads for a long time.

[George M. Johnson]

Forever. So I think.

[Ed Zitron]

Why do you think it feels like ads to. Ad tech has traditionally been very quick to adopt stuff. Yeah, but they will rush. They rush to fucking meerkat. They rush to everything fast. Yeah, rem that. But it's AI. They've generative AI, generative search, chat, GPT.

[George M. Johnson]

Because I just don't think it. I would. I would say that it's just a little naive and I have seen.

[Ed Zitron]

How do you mean?

[George M. Johnson]

I have seen ads that are directed by. So scripted by AI, shot by humans.

[Ed Zitron]

Sure.

[George M. Johnson]

And they look, there's just something missing and because that litmus test of is it warm enough? Does it feel like something is emotive? It misses.

[Jon Lee Brody]

Sure.

[George M. Johnson]

It is going to get a lot better. Man, this is not even a debate.

[Ed Zitron]

I mean it absolutely is a debate. I mean I will absolutely debate the shit out of this. The training data required to make Sora better does not exist. Even if you took every video ever taken. Adobe is paying people to take video. But my question was actually really way more specific, which is you have been in ad tech for a long time. Everything else has been in like generative AI platforms are not integrating ads as a monetization mechanism. Why do you think that is?

[George M. Johnson]

Because the presentation layer of that, the actual ability to generate something that feels like it's not cold specifically, and I've said it a few times now, is not up to snuff. Everything else in the background that is actually using lots of big data to be able to represent the right type of context to you Today we will call that AI is in play. So I think there's a marriage between what's going on in the back humming along and the presentation layer of that, to be honest, is terrible in comparison.

[Ed Zitron]

I agree. But maybe I need to be more specific. It feels like AdTech is. They will do the generative side. There's tons of ad tech platforms that will generate like.

[George M. Johnson]

And you see those ads, the specs. Yeah. Or you've seen the ads too. You've seen the shiny, muscly person even.

[Ed Zitron]

Oh, God, yeah. The horrifying, like beautiful people.

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ed Zitron]

With like a 19 pack. I mean, more on a practical level of you were aol, you were inspiring them to do more things. It feels like when it comes to the platforms themselves, putting aside the actual ads themselves, I mean, it doesn't feel like anyone. Not perplexity. Perplexity being so slow. Google especially, so weird. It feels like they're hesitant to attach ads to these platforms at all.

[George M. Johnson]

Ads to the platforms?

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah. As in, like they haven't integrated because ad tech loves integrating shit. They love putting stuff on stuff. But it feels like they've stepped away from like they had look.

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah. And maybe. Maybe because of. That's a really interesting question. Maybe it's because it's just, you know, it's an interface for creation and they don't want to actually bastard it with ads today. It might be that. It might be that pure. It might be that pure.

[Ed Zitron]

I wonder if it's difficult to integrate because.

[George M. Johnson]

Or where would you. Because the interface today feels a bit like Wikipedia meets answers dot com.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah.

[George M. Johnson]

It feels a bit kind of retro, you know.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah.

[George M. Johnson]

And because it's a new interface, the only way to put the context around it is in the context of what you're generating.

[Ed Zitron]

And it's software, and that's random every time.

[George M. Johnson]

And it's also. Software equals ads before. So if we roll this back to the early 90s, mid-90s, there were holes cut across websites for display ads and those formats were accredited. Now it's. So there is a little bit of through line that feels like it's consistent, but it's not a consistent interface. It feels like you wrap ads around it, particularly on mobile, but desktop probably more so.

[Ed Zitron]

And I wanted. And like this wasn't meant to be an oppositional question. It's just fascinating to me.

[George M. Johnson]

Oh, I don't think it is. I think it's a really good question because. Because I would say that these. But the reason why I'm keep on asking for a pointed question to the question is that you've got creation tools and you've got consumption tools.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah.

[George M. Johnson]

And at times they're the same thing.

[Ed Zitron]

Sure.

[George M. Johnson]

If you look at Chad or if you look at, you know, if you look at Claude, they're the same thing. So in there, creating as a creator as well as somebody who's consuming, that's pretty new from a dynamic of a user interface, because you don't go in. You don't. Well, you could go in and create a video on the fly and upload it to Instagram, but you wouldn't expect to see an ad on your creation of that video on Instagram. You know what I'm saying? So given that's the case, there's a new paradigm is all I'm saying. And I haven't really thought about that paradigm converging.

[Ed Zitron]

And that's the thing. Like your whole thing is what's new and sexy and ads and all that shiny, shiny. And it's. It's just so strange. It's truly unique because when we had the bullshit AR thing, sure, you remember that? They had ads on that shit immediately. You could not. You couldn't. You were filthy with filters. You could have like a Sprite filter on your face if you wanted it. They had the ads immediately.

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah.

[Ed Zitron]

And it.

[George M. Johnson]

Because in that context, it felt. You really couldn't. You just layer it.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah. And it's just like it. And you. I agree with you that they are creative interfaces when you look at them. This is not a judgment on how much I like them. It's just what they work work as. It just feels so weird that ad tech or like, none of these platforms want to. Sam Altman said he doesn't like it, whatever, but it's just so bizarre.

[Brendan Patrick Hughes]

September 1979. Virginia's top prison band, Edge of Daybreak, is about to record their debut album, Behind Bars, in just five hours.

[Ed Zitron]

Okay, we're rolling. One, two, three, four.

[Brendan Patrick Hughes]

I'm Jamie Petras, music and culture writer. For the past five years, I've been talking to the band's three surviving members. They're out of prison now and in their 70s, their past behind them. But they also have some unfinished business.

[Ed Zitron]

The end of Daybreak, Eyes of Love was supposed to have been followed up by another album.

[Brendan Patrick Hughes]

It's a story about the liberating power of music, the American justice system, and ultimately, second chances. Listen to soul incarcerated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Kevin Smith]

Hey, kids, it's me, Kevin Smith.

[George M. Johnson]

And it's me, Harley Quinn Smith.

[Kevin Smith]

That's my daughter, man, who my wife has always said is just a beardless d ckless version of me. And that's the Name of our podcast, Beardless Me. I'm the old one.

[George M. Johnson]

I'm the young one.

[Kevin Smith]

And every week we try to make each other laugh really hard. Sounds innocent, doesn't it? Lot of cussing, a lot of bad language. It's for adults only. Or listen to it with your kid. Could be a family show. We're not quite sure. We're still figuring it out.

[George M. Johnson]

It's a work in progress.

[Kevin Smith]

Listen to Beardless with me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Cheekies]

Hey, y'all, it's your girl, Cheekies. And I'm back with a brand new season of your favorite podcast, Cheekies and Chill. I'll be sharing even more personal stories with you guys, and I know a lot of people are gonna attack me.

[George M. Johnson]

Why?

[Cheekies]

Are you gonna go visit your dad? Your mom wouldn't be okay with it. I'm gonna tell you guys right now. I know my mother and I know my mom had a very forgiving heart. That is my story on plastic surgery. This is my truth. I think the last time I cried like that was when I lost my mom like that. Like, yelling. I was like, no. I was like, oh. And I thought, what did I do wrong? And as always, you'll get my exclusive take on topics like love, personal growth, health, family ties, and more. And don't forget, I'll also be dishing out my best advice to you on episodes of Dear Cheekies.

[Shannon Schuyler]

So my fiance and I have been together for 10 years. In the first two years of being together, I find out he is cheating on me not only with women, but also with men. What should I do?

[Cheekies]

Okay, where do I start? That's not love. He doesn't love you enough. Because if he loved you, he'd be faithful. It's going to be an exciting year, and I hope that you can join me, listen to Cheekies and Chill Season four as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Vanessa Marshall]

Welcome to Pod of Rebellion, our new Star Wars Rebels Rewatch podcast. I'm Vanessa Marshall. Hi, I'm Tia Sercar.

[Ed Zitron]

I'm Taylor.

[Jon Lee Brody]

And I'm Jon Lee Brody.

[Vanessa Marshall]

But you may also know us as Harrison Doula Specter 2, Sabine Wren, Specter.

[Ed Zitron]

5, and Ezra Bridger Specter 6 from Star Wars Rebels.

[Jon Lee Brody]

Wait, I wasn't on Star Wars Rebels. Am I in the right place?

[Vanessa Marshall]

Absolutely. Each week we're going to rewatch and discuss an episode from the series and.

[Ed Zitron]

Share some fun behind the scenes stories.

[Jon Lee Brody]

Sometimes we'll be visited by special guests like Steve blum voices Zaborielio Spectre 4 or Dante Bosco voice of Jai Kel and many others.

[Vanessa Marshall]

Sometimes we'll even have a lively debate.

[Ed Zitron]

And we'll have plenty of other fun surprises and trivia too.

[Jon Lee Brody]

Oh, and me. Well, I'm the lucky ghost crew Stowaway who gets to help moderate and guide the discussion each week. Kind of like how Kanan guided Ezra in the ways of the Force. You see what I did there?

[Vanessa Marshall]

Nicely done, John.

[Jon Lee Brody]

Thanks, Tia.

[Vanessa Marshall]

So hang on. Cause it's gonna be a fun ride.

[Ed Zitron]

Cue the.

[Jon Lee Brody]

Listen to Potter Rebellion on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[George M. Johnson]

What about the fact that the gold rush of AI happening now is also part of the fallout of the euphoria of the web3nft blockchain world?

[Ed Zitron]

How'd you mean?

[George M. Johnson]

And what I mean by that is that that was all the attention. If we met, I don't know, on this particular show three, four years ago, that's probably all you'd talk about.

[Ed Zitron]

I mean this show didn't exist three years ago, but I was on that show.

[George M. Johnson]

If we were. But you know what I'm saying. So. But that. That has kind of. That isn't as quite hypey as it is today. So what I'm saying, if people are saying Web3 the future of that's more puristic. We haven't seen a world like this. This is going to be incredible. Let's buy land in it. Blah, blah, blah. Perhaps the positioning of what does this new web better web look like? Jamming ads in it is just like having the uninvited guest to the party.

[Ed Zitron]

I don't know if I feel like it's a utopian thing. It's the idea of any of these companies being like, oh well, we don't want to fuck up the Internet. I mean, look at Google search. I mean there is no greater vector that has fucked up the Internet. Prabhadar Raghavan piece of shit. It's. It's just so strange. And I really only came to this conversation thinking about this because every single hype cycle other than and crypto, I can understand why the ads weren't quite as prevalent. I can understand because it's difficult to do blockchain ads. Christ, what a hype cycle idea. But blockchain ads, because sure, the immutable ledger. But how would you actually reliably. You could probably say a click happen. No, actually it would Be difficult.

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah. Attribution across that would be challenging. But I also think. But on your point, I don't know why, to be honest. But I do think maybe there is. It's always an outcome. Monetizing a platform of popularity is always going to be an outcome. It doesn't have to be. And by the way, that's with every platform. You know, it starts with the purists of all the social platforms, none of them had ads initially.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah.

[George M. Johnson]

And then if you look at something, if you go into the vault and look at things like MySpace, they never had ads for the longest time because the artist was the ad. I mean, you know. Sure, that makes sense.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah. But I'm. I'm just thinking I'm having like one idea which is very difficult for my brain. It almost feels like these hype cycles have failed because they haven't found an ad thing. All of the previous ones, the Internet is built on advertising, as you well know. But none of them, not metaverse, not crypto, not generative AI, have found a stable ad income. And I have to wonder if it might be that the subscription model is not scalable. At least it doesn't scale to the dollars that advertising can provide, which most of tech is dependent on.

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah, for sure. I mean, the subscription dollars versus the ad dollars is still that pathetic. Yeah, forget about it. But there's something really interesting about that popularity though. We're still in this world of popularity. Right?

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[George M. Johnson]

Until you get scale, you don't have an audience that actually you can monetize. But it still comes down to, I think these two interfaces are in conflict because you've got consumption and creation happening on the same platform.

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[George M. Johnson]

Which I think is incredibly unique.

[Ed Zitron]

It is unique. However I feel about generative AI, there hasn't been something like this shit before, which is, I find it deeply annoying and all of it frustrating and the environmental and the theft and all of that and the fact it's actually the people it's put out of jobs feel like people who are already vulnerable as well, like art directors and like freelance audio people and freelance creatives are the ones getting fucked by this. And all of this is happening for them all to lose money. That to me is the dystopian part that they haven't. No one really appears to be benefiting from this other than maybe Sam Altman and Dario Amadei.

[George M. Johnson]

There is something ed to the culture of creativity, which is even in ads today still is that creative is considered the non working part of the media.

[Ed Zitron]

What do you mean?

[George M. Johnson]

Mean that it doesn't count as part of the media creative. So it's always this cost item.

[Ed Zitron]

So what, the journalists and the artists.

[George M. Johnson]

And stuff, all that. Yeah. The people who create the commercials, for example, they typically doesn't get rolled up as part of the media spend or success. It's always debatable. Media isn't because it's absolute, because it's. You got a right card where your audiences are, you know, I, I get what you're saying.

[Ed Zitron]

Who are the people that have. When you say it's not rated or it like it's not, it's not considered.

[George M. Johnson]

Part of the media.

[Ed Zitron]

Who are the people saying this is it? The ad. The ads people. They just don't consider the creatives.

[George M. Johnson]

Oh, the brands. So if a brand is sitting here saying, look, we're going to create an ad, but the cost of that ad doesn't get attributed to where the media is because media is always whole. So that's always a. I'm not sure I understand. So I guess my point in saying this is that we're always going to try and skinny down the cost of creation.

[Ed Zitron]

Right. Okay.

[George M. Johnson]

That's really the nut of it. Because everything else that's rate card, negotiable, whatever, but the actual physical cost of the thing that gets placed, that always seems to be a stepchild.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[George M. Johnson]

That's a shame. And so when you talk about vulnerability, I completely agree with that.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah.

[George M. Johnson]

The flip side of that is all of these efficiency tools that we see, and AI is considered one of those today because generative is just one part of it which is still trying to find, I believe, its way. I find some things that are really kind of amazing.

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[George M. Johnson]

But not all the time. Like I wouldn't be using it all the time. But you can't.

[Ed Zitron]

It is not reliable enough.

[George M. Johnson]

Good point.

[Ed Zitron]

No, I wasn't even trying to gotcha that. But you just can't right now.

[George M. Johnson]

And it's also, you know, it's not higher resolution enough. There's many reasons why, but it does get you to mediocre faster. And so at least that allows not disagreement. But yeah, you know, so at least make those decisions and say, obviously that's a bad idea, we're not going to go forward with it. As opposed to somebody polishing 10 great ideas or 10 mediocre ideas and finding out there's one should have been executed faster, better, sooner. Maybe that's a. Maybe that's a case for it.

[Ed Zitron]

I think you've really touched upon something though, which is I Think a lot of my listeners and my readers struggle with why so many corporations want generative AI to grow. And part of it is the labor automation, why they want generative AI, why they want AI to be a thing. And there's many stupid reasons. But I never thought about the fact that just in the ads world, which controls large swaths of our economy and funds a lot of the tech industry, just all creativity was considered minority. I never. I mean, it's very obvious now, I say it, but, like, it's fascinating to know that from that perspective. Is that like an executive position?

[George M. Johnson]

Well, yet here's the. Here's the challenge. You have mediocre creatives seen by many.

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[George M. Johnson]

And you see really great creatives seen by few. So that's why it feels like the creatives still sort of sit at the back, they're trying to do these things. But whenever a discussion says at scale, that's when it falls apart.

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[George M. Johnson]

So that's why it's kind of.

[Ed Zitron]

Why is mediocre seen by the many, though? Like, why does the.

[George M. Johnson]

Simply because of four man, I think, is really, you know, the ability to try and create something that has a contagiousness to it. Today seems to have a celebrity moment. Those days, I think, are kind of at least falling away. And there are better places for people to hold their attention. So metrics have to change effectively, go away from popularity and talk about other things. Like how do you hold somebody's attention for the longest time versus just trying to saturate, you know?

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[George M. Johnson]

I mean, I think it's. I think the landscape's changing, but I don't think it's. I don't think creation of content or creativity is evolving at the same pace.

[Ed Zitron]

But would evolving even matter if there was this attitude towards creatives?

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah. Well, for example, format, of course.

[Ed Zitron]

What do you mean?

[George M. Johnson]

Shape of the ad.

[Ed Zitron]

Sure.

[George M. Johnson]

Style of the ad. You know, you talked about AR as a good example. That was Small orienters. Wow. Experience, to be honest.

[Ed Zitron]

But where was the conversion there? Because that's the thing. It doesn't feel like there has been a new successful ad format in a long time.

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ed Zitron]

Have you seen other, like.

[George M. Johnson]

I really haven't.

[Ed Zitron]

It's so strange.

[George M. Johnson]

And, you know, I've tried on, as I'm sure you have, with Vision Pro. You've tried on the goggles.

[Ed Zitron]

Oh, Christ, yes.

[George M. Johnson]

You know, I can't really see anybody. Firstly, it just doesn't scale. Comes back to that. Right. There is no scale.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah.

[George M. Johnson]

But it's immersive. But the reality of are you building things for a one to many or are you building it for one to one?

[Ed Zitron]

And just even then I have to wonder if there's not a problem which we the geniuses have discovered, which is there is no. Like we're in the iHeartRadio studios. One of the most successful advertising formats and as my listeners love to tell me, is the ads. The basic radio play ads. Yeah. The audio ads and display ads. And so cpa, cpm. Otherwise it doesn't feel like advertising has evolved. It's tried to evolve.

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah. I mean we tried to do it with Devil, we tried to do it with these incredible formats.

[Ed Zitron]

Do they work?

[George M. Johnson]

They certainly did. And the measurement of work is, you know, dwell time, click through all of those things that you can measure.

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[George M. Johnson]

They were going through the roof and they work until they become standards and then they don't work because they're everywhere. So there's this exclusivity to these things that make you feel like you're.

[Ed Zitron]

It's scale.

[George M. Johnson]

And then scale comes in.

[Ed Zitron]

No, because when everyone does the same thing and it's all gets back to fucking display.

[George M. Johnson]

Well, you end up with homogenization. Right. So that's why, that's why it's homogenized. Everything feels normalized.

[Ed Zitron]

It feels right.

[George M. Johnson]

Consistently the same thing, regardless of what you put in it. There was a. There was something I. You know, this conversation makes me think of something that was retro years ago when these ad formats came out. There was this ad and I don't know what brand it is. So that at the jump it tells me that the thing didn't work. But what was working was this incredible experience. So a band built shape of a ad display ad. Two shapes. One was square, one was rectangular. And in this square they had a drummer and maybe a guitarist. And in that square they had a bassist and maybe the vocalist. And they were playing live in these.

[Ed Zitron]

Display in the display apps.

[George M. Johnson]

And those live display. Because they were proportional.

[Ed Zitron]

How does that work?

[George M. Johnson]

They were being broadcast to these websites.

[Ed Zitron]

That's so strange.

[George M. Johnson]

It was so fabulous.

[Ed Zitron]

Did it work?

[George M. Johnson]

It felt. I don't know, but I made a hell of an impression on me 20 years upstream.

[Ed Zitron]

So that's the thing.

[George M. Johnson]

And it just felt very inventive.

[Ed Zitron]

That is inventive. I'm also going to have to look this up because that sounds how the hell. Yeah.

[George M. Johnson]

Ban in a box or something. I can't remember.

[Ed Zitron]

I will look this up.

[George M. Johnson]

It's very cool.

[Ed Zitron]

But it feels almost as if the more I think about the Ads and display ads and all this, how like this might actually be what's really undermined generative AI, which is they are trying to scale something that requires advertising dollar level funding with subscriptions, which may not work.

[George M. Johnson]

I think you've hit on something. But I do think that when there's a format that becomes consistent, which doesn't exist today, right. When you've got that, there's always these outliers that are trying to create something around that format, right? So back then in the day there was breakouts and you have an ad, you click on it, it folds open. All of those sort of things that happened, all of that stuff was really just to say, here's the format that we've all decided is important. We're going to put this value on top of it that makes it feel like it's really different. And it reminds me of that band in the box thing because there's no consistent interface, you can't have a consistent ad. So everything around it, all these ads that we're going to see, they're going to be cloaked in this thing called context and value, I think. And it'll be obfusfurgated because it'll come back as a long paragraph talking about why you should buy these Sony headphones versus something else.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, I can see them trying that for sure.

[George M. Johnson]

I mean, particularly in descriptive results.

[Ed Zitron]

The problem is if that, if that result is generative, that's going to shave off that little bit of CPM revenue that's going to scrape it off. It's like, it's almost as if it's antithetical to add actually, I'll tell you.

[George M. Johnson]

Where it won't shave it off. It won't shave it off because it'll probably move from a CPA to, sorry, CPM to a cpa.

[Ed Zitron]

How expensive would that be?

[George M. Johnson]

Who knows. But it depends on the cost of. I mean it depends on what the attribution cost is going to be. But let me just stay with me for a second. If it moves from cost per million to or thousands to cost per acquisition, then there is a direct cost because that ad is generated one to one, right? So that it isn't a many to many model, it's a one to many and sorry, it's actually a one to one generative. So I'm able to produce an ad that feels highly tailored to Ed and his needs. But that should be highly valuable.

[Ed Zitron]

It should be, but the hallucination, when you scale it to a million people is the thing, but you don't have to.

[George M. Johnson]

Sorry, you don't have to scale it is what I'm saying.

[Ed Zitron]

Yes, you do.

[George M. Johnson]

No, you don't. You don't. Because if people aren't. If you're searching generally for an ad.

[Ed Zitron]

Some headphones, we're searching for some headphones and you're presented with an ad for headphones. If it's generating for each person, say a million people see this ad and it is one to one, it is still generative with fresh. At one point it's going to hallucinate. It's just that's. And this is. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong with the idea.

[George M. Johnson]

It's just, it's not completely thought out, I can tell you. But I love what scale. Yeah, yeah.

[Ed Zitron]

And it's like.

[George M. Johnson]

But the scale is a challenge, period, full stop.

[Ed Zitron]

With generative AI. I just have to wonder if this is not part of the economic failure. Because it doesn't. It scales. But when you try and scale it in the traditional tech software way, subscriptions, it's not. They're not making enough money with it. But even when you try and put it into ads, ads are by definition going to be scaled to millions, hundreds of millions of people to make any money. And if you're doing generative, you're going to have things like Google telling you to eat rocks.

[George M. Johnson]

I will tell you that I think this conversation isn't ready for that type of architecture because the generative tools are designed for generating. They're not designed, consuming. I don't think there's a mass. I don't think the volume of people is, is at a point where average people are going to consume things based on a search criteria as a new rhythm.

[Ed Zitron]

I mean that's how Google makes all.

[George M. Johnson]

Its money and it's Google. But if you're talking about these other tools that are thinking about how they actually monetize, it's from a creative perspective, not from a consumption perspective.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, I was just talking at scaling generative AI as an ad tech tool or.

[George M. Johnson]

And in your reference to that example with Google. Yeah. I'd be surprised if they're not at least trialing that.

[Ed Zitron]

Oh, they just started trying.

[George M. Johnson]

But it's funny, it's just in their search results.

[Ed Zitron]

In their search.

[George M. Johnson]

As opposed to starting Gemini tools.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah. Well, no, they're now putting Gemini front and center, which is so funny. It's just like.

[George M. Johnson]

Well, it definitely crowds out their homepage, let's say that.

[Ed Zitron]

Well, that's the thing. Like Google's in this weird, this really weird spot now.

[George M. Johnson]

And actually do you think it's a catch up spot? Tell me when you say weird, define that some more.

[Ed Zitron]

Well, I mean the Google search has never been worse, right?

[George M. Johnson]

It's definitely worst it's ever been. A little bit like Craigslist of the 90s. Yes.

[Ed Zitron]

By comparison Craigslist information was relatively validated. I mean you didn't have Craigslist optimization experts and if you did, I'd love to meet them. But it's Google's position right now is they're behind on AI, even though it's like being the first to eat out of the toilet. In my opinion, it's. They're behind on AI, they're out of toilet, ad traffic is slowing like that. Everything is kind of contracting with them and they're desperate and people hate these AI search results. So yeah, they are in a weird spot. But on top of it, I think we've actually noticed one thing which is the core economics of tech are around ads. And ads have been the same for 15 to 20 years. They've had.

[George M. Johnson]

I agree.

[Ed Zitron]

I mean, ads at scale.

[George M. Johnson]

Sure. So it's the at scale question that comes back to that because you know, everything sounds great in that statement until you say at scale.

[Ed Zitron]

Exactly.

[George M. Johnson]

That's kind of the world. Oh mate, you'll hear that. The creative brief stage where it's like, how can we do this? But it needs to scale. I'm like, wow. But that's not. Take that out of the vernacular ads. Take that out of the vernacular of media. Everything is trying to scale. The beauty industry is trying to do things at scale. They're trying to do things at a high volume. I mean this is just part of the vocab.

[Ed Zitron]

It's an attempt to do something at scale with nuance, which is almost impossible, I imagine.

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah, that's a good observation.

[Ed Zitron]

I mean look at the super bowl commercials. They're all insane. Every single super bowl commercial is like either old people doing something that young people do or 11 celebrities.

[George M. Johnson]

Right.

[Ed Zitron]

And I was watching this.

[George M. Johnson]

Lots of electric. Lots of retro soundtracks.

[Ed Zitron]

Exactly.

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah.

[Ed Zitron]

And like Big Noises. And I feel very stupid because now I understand they are trying to create something that they are trying to create something that everyone could enjoy. Man, I know so little sometimes.

[George M. Johnson]

But, but that's, I mean the truth of that is to, to matter for everybody means you matter for nobody.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah.

[George M. Johnson]

And that analogy rings true there. So there's something nostalgic and comfortable and. Okay. But everything around it has to be super weird to try and make it fit, you know, in that Example. But, you know, I think a Super bowl is a really good example of, you know, it's a moment. Right. The rest of. I don't know what happens on daytime tv, but those sort of ads don't turn up there, I suspect.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, because you would also be spending so much money on. On all of that. You'd know more about the economics.

[Brendan Patrick Hughes]

September 1979. Virginia's top prison band, Edge of Daybreak, is about to record their debut album, Behind Bars in just five hours.

[Ed Zitron]

Okay, we're rolling.

[George M. Johnson]

One, two, three, four.

[Brendan Patrick Hughes]

I'm Jamie Petras, music and culture writer. For the past five years, I've been talking to the band's three surviving members. They're out of prison now and in their 70s, their past behind them. But they also have some unfinished business.

[Ed Zitron]

The everyday break Eyes of Love was supposed to have been followed up by another album.

[Brendan Patrick Hughes]

It's a story about the liberating power of music, the American just justice system, and ultimately, second chances. Listen to soul incarcerated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kevin Smith]

Hey, kids, it's me, Kevin Smith.

[George M. Johnson]

And it's me, Harley Quinn Smith.

[Kevin Smith]

That's my daughter, man. Who my wife has always said is just a beardless d Ckless version of me. And that's the name of our podcast, Beardless D D Me.

[Ed Zitron]

I'm the old one, I'm the young one.

[Kevin Smith]

And every week we try to make each other laugh really hard. Sounds innocent, doesn't it? A lot of cussing, a lot of bad LA language. It's for adults only. Or listen to it with your kid. Could be a family show. We're not quite sure. We're still figuring it out.

[George M. Johnson]

It's a work in progress.

[Kevin Smith]

Listen to Beardless me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Cheekies]

Hey, y'all, it's your girl, Cheekies. And I'm back with a brand new season of your favorite podcast, Cheekies and Chill. I'll be sharing even more personal stories with you guys. And I know a lot of people are gonna attack me. Why are you gonna go visit your dad? Your mom wouldn't be okay with it. I'm gonna tell you guys right now. I know my mother and I know my mom had a very forgiving heart. That is my story on plastic surgery. This is my truth. I think the last time I cried like that was when I lost my mom like that, like, yelling. I was like, no. I was like, oh. And I thought, what did I do wrong? And as always, you'll get my exclusive take on topics like love, personal growth, health, family ties, and more. And don't forget, I'll also be dishing out my best advice to you on episodes of Dear Cheekies.

[Shannon Schuyler]

So, my fiance and I have been together for 10 years. In the first two years of being together, I find out he is cheating on me, not only with women, but also with men. What should I do?

[Cheekies]

Okay, where do I start? That's not love. He doesn't love you enough. Because if he loved you, he'd be faithful. It's going to be an exciting year, and I hope that you can join me, listen to Cheekies and Chill Season four as part of the My Cultura Podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Vanessa Marshall]

Welcome to Pod of Rebellion, our new Star Wars Rebels Rewatch podcast. I'm Vanessa Marshall. Hi, I'm Tia Sircar.

[Ed Zitron]

I'm Taylor Gray.

[Jon Lee Brody]

And I'm John Lee Brody.

[Vanessa Marshall]

But you may also know us as Harrison Dula, Spectre 2, Sabine Wren, Specter.

[Ed Zitron]

5, and Ezra Bridger, Specter 6 from Star Wars Rebels.

[Jon Lee Brody]

Wait, I wasn't on Star Wars Rebels. Am I in the right place?

[Vanessa Marshall]

Absolutely. Each week we're going to rewatch and discuss an episode from the series and.

[Ed Zitron]

Share some fun behind the scenes stories.

[Jon Lee Brody]

Sometimes we'll be visited by special guests like Steve Bloom voices Zabarelio's Spectre 4, or Dante Bosco voices Jai Kell and many others.

[Vanessa Marshall]

Sometimes we'll even have a lively debate.

[Ed Zitron]

And we'll have plenty of other fun surprises and trivia too.

[Jon Lee Brody]

Oh, and me, well, I'm the lucky ghost crew Stowaway who gets to help moderate and guide the discussion each week. Kinda like how Kanan guided Ezra in the ways of the Force. You see what I did there?

[Vanessa Marshall]

Nicely done, Jon.

[Jon Lee Brody]

Thanks, Tia.

[Vanessa Marshall]

So hang on because it's gonna be a fun ride.

[Ed Zitron]

Cue the music.

[Jon Lee Brody]

Listen to Potter Rebellion on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ed Zitron]

I actually want to change gears slightly because you did write something related to nostalgia. And as a creative as you go about your business, are you finding more demand on the client side for more nostalgic things returning to the 90s or the 2000s? Are you finding any of that?

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah, it's not a date stamp. Yeah, it's just a feeling. And that nostalgic vibe is. I think it's a throwback to. Look, we're in a room right now that has a lot of nostalgia. In it, mate. These buttons couldn't be more big.

[Ed Zitron]

Oh, I love them.

[George M. Johnson]

And these sort of analog knobs and. You know what I mean?

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah.

[George M. Johnson]

Creaky chairs and, you know, the only thing that's modern here are the shure mics. Everything else is kind of retro, including the.

[Ed Zitron]

And Daniel Goodman's wonderful skills and the.

[George M. Johnson]

And the MDR headphones, whatever we're wearing right now. But what's amazing about this is there's. There's a throwback one to those who are old enough to know about nostalgia, and those are young enough to crave about it because they, you know, they didn't grow up with it, but they're super curious, you know, to read through liner notes and understand that there's a flip side to an lp. And. And there's something very Moorish about slowing it down, because everything is highly consumptive. Even the time we've spoke and I saw you pick up your phone.

[Ed Zitron]

Oh, that was to get a picture.

[George M. Johnson]

Half a dozen times.

[Ed Zitron]

No, it's once I came.

[George M. Johnson]

Can I not exaggerate? But what's amazing about this is that there's something really kind of about that distraction that anchors it. There's something beautiful about nostalgia. And I'm gonna keep harping on about it because I see it pop up. I mean, super bowl is a classic example. I think I counted like 11 songs or something. Ed, I'm gonna misquote that, but I could pick everything from bloody Huey Lewis to Journey or something, and I'm like, my God, you know, firstly, what happened? And secondly, is this. The only thing we have is this throwback? There's something really unique about it.

[Ed Zitron]

I have to wonder if it's not a bit of trying to ignore reality as well. You talk about. I don't mean it in a bad way. When you look at the news, it sucks. When you look at, like, everything kind of sucks. There's. You talk about the. The idea that we're constantly getting. We're having to engage with our devices constantly. And I agree. And it's the kind of a return to a time when we weren't harassed by them, even though we. I love being online, but at the same time now, I fucking hated it before online. I'm not going to pretend I imagine normal people crave the time of not being online constantly and not having. Because it's not just, like, content, it's. You get work emails, you get your texts from people mad at. You get a text from a T shirt company you bought from 15 years ago.

[George M. Johnson]

Right.

[Ed Zitron]

It Feels like maybe people are, are craving an off ramp almost.

[George M. Johnson]

Or permission to have one at least.

[Ed Zitron]

Yes.

[George M. Johnson]

Can I also say though, there's something about perhaps this fast culture that we've generated and this futuristic vibe that we've been in something. And what I mean by. I'm just going to apply this to. I'm just going to apply this to a thought in that statement you said about nostalgia. When I watch a brand like BMW online and I see their cars which look amazing. Ryan, the love that a retro car like an old car that they did like back in the 80s as a boxy M series or something, an M3 or something, 325i or something. It gets way more love and commentary than anything they've got either in market or even planning on doing.

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[George M. Johnson]

Hyundai is a classic example. They, you know, they threw out this, they might bring back this boxy, beautiful.

[Ed Zitron]

Oh, is this the electric one? But it's like an 80s.

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah, dude. And it's got the, you know, it's got the square lights and.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, yeah.

[George M. Johnson]

And you'll see people go into every single design detail like the white wall tire to the, to the type of mud cap. You don't get that sort of detail today. It's all spec. Right. And it's not. There's no emotion to it. But you look at these things that feel like. And it's not bygone emotion, it's a different era of freedom. And maybe that's kind of the thing that is a land like terrestrial radio. It's probably still massive. I mean I heard it is so bloody successful. Terrestrial radio is unbelievable.

[Ed Zitron]

And I think it's because in a world of just sudden conversations, you have real ones. The reason that I like doing, the reason that then any listener is curious about this, the reason I don't do a lot of virtual interviews is they, they kind of suck.

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah.

[Ed Zitron]

Like I made them pretty good. But the in person, it's having the microphone, it's like hearing yourself, the bassy tones.

[George M. Johnson]

Right, Right.

[Ed Zitron]

I also have to wonder if the reason that people are nostalgic for things like an old car or like the CD player or whatever is it felt like the companies gave more of a shit because you talk about that thing probably scaling. It's built for everyone, but built for no one. Every car kind of looks the same. They all have the kind of Tesla esque curve to it or like they look like a Porsche Cayenne. Not a car guy. They all kind of look and feel the same and they all kind and People are craving something that feels like anyone cared about building it.

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah. And maybe it all got to a point. I think maybe designing culture generally has got to a point where it feels like it's efficient.

[Ed Zitron]

Yes.

[George M. Johnson]

And that efficiency means it's not. I'm not tied to any of it, dude. You know what I mean?

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah.

[George M. Johnson]

And that evolution of design means that if you've got efficiency already, because you're using battery technologies and you're using something that doesn't have to feel like it looks like a pin, so it becomes wind efficient, and you build something that's square. Square, square, square. God bless. I think it's amazing.

[Ed Zitron]

I think this is why people don't like generative AI content as well, because it really. The point we were making earlier, that it all kind of looks the same. It has the uncanny valley. It feels like, wow. No love went into it. Not just like. Not just like. This is mass produced. It's not even mass produced. It's this sub production where we're creating this thing for. No. For nobody and everybody at the same time. I don't. I'm not gonna debate generative AI's efficacy with you in any further. I'm sorry about that. But it's more. We're all kind of craving a return to a time when things felt like they were made for someone, that they were made with a bit of a soul. And it sucks to be in this world and it. And it sucks to. And I think that nostalgia is the natural. It's kind of the natural endpoint of a culture that has escaped any kind of personalization or joy in the creation of anything mass market, even the utility of these things doesn't feel like it's for people.

[George M. Johnson]

You know, Ed, as you're having this discussion and I'm with you, I look out at the screen that we're facing, and Flow Rider was on.

[Ed Zitron]

Oh, is he?

[George M. Johnson]

And before that was Flavor Flav. And I think before that, I might have seen Snoop.

[Ed Zitron]

Yep.

[George M. Johnson]

And I look at that and think, to your point, there's something about this cycle of comfort and familiarity that I think it's really interesting because what you're talking about is, by the way, I will just put a pin in this and say that I think the generative AI creation will absolutely be for everything other than the human. And when you want to put a human in it, just film them and then add them to this generative crazy background in Utopia, if you want to do it. So these blended AI experiences will happen. But I do think that because it's called CGI previously.

[Ed Zitron]

And. But I actually. I'm gonna push back on that and say I believe that will happen.

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah.

[Ed Zitron]

But I think people are gonna get really upset with it because you're kind of seeing it with severance and the Mandalorian when they're doing these weird. I don't know what it's called, but it's when they do the on. On shot thing where it's. They pretend they're outside and for a while it convinced people. Then you saw it enough times, you're like, no fucking motherfuckers. But.

[George M. Johnson]

But what it would also do, though, is because it'll inspire you when you see something that's really designed by cutting up the cardboard box to make it feel like a cardboard box. And I can show you some really good examples of people that push back against that and say, we're just going to film this thing. Analog, dude.

[Ed Zitron]

Oh, yeah.

[George M. Johnson]

Feel it. And it feels so different.

[Ed Zitron]

And it does. And it's just. We're getting back to maybe nostalgia is just wishing that people that creatives gave it. Not creatives.

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah.

[Ed Zitron]

It feels like the mechanisms of creatives more than anything gave a shit. Gave a shit and felt like they were putting any thought into it other than just kind of simmering it down for everyone making creative.

[George M. Johnson]

I've almost bought the Samsung flip phone a couple of times.

[Ed Zitron]

Oh, it's so cool.

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah, it's so cool.

[Ed Zitron]

I love it. I use. Exactly. I need my imessage. I need it.

[George M. Johnson]

I'm a pig and I don't have two phones. It just drives me crazy. But even the Motorola looks amazing. But there's something about that time when you'd have a flip phone and buttons and all that sort of relationships.

[Ed Zitron]

I didn't. I didn't have a flip phone. I had the Nokia chocolate bar Nokia. Oh, that was so good, though. It's funny. It's funny, though.

[George M. Johnson]

Chocolate bar Nokia.

[Ed Zitron]

But even then, it kind of fucking sucked. I don't know why I'm pretending like I like this device the moment the.

[George M. Johnson]

Iphone came out, because you're probably still talking on the phone and that sounded amazing. You did what it did on the tin?

[Ed Zitron]

No, I just.

[George M. Johnson]

You were texting with all those buttons.

[Ed Zitron]

Yes. Oh, I'm a freak in many ways. And it's just funny because as we discuss all these different bits, it really is just like creativity is considered this stepchild of ads. Ads are the way that a lot of people are exposed to an alarming amount of creativity. And it feels like people at Scale are kind of becoming more aware of how much is manufactured for them. Maybe it's not just that thing. Maybe it's not that things have changed a ton. I believe they have, obviously, but it's that they've kind of. People are more aware now of when they're being fucked with, when they're being given the same slop when they're being given. And I think that corporations may have.

[George M. Johnson]

Slightly overplayed their hands in the mass production era. I mean, you'll see that with foods, you'll see that with. I mean, education in that criteria is way more transparent and interesting than it used to be because you don't have to have. You know, you can consume less and probably feel better. I have a question for you. Is that an OURA ring? Yes.

[Ed Zitron]

I've got an aura ring.

[George M. Johnson]

Why are you wearing it?

[Ed Zitron]

Because I track my sleep.

[George M. Johnson]

Oh, you do my workouts and you're actually. You are using it as a utility.

[Ed Zitron]

I am.

[George M. Johnson]

You haven't. How long you had it? Yeah. Generation one, isn't it? Oh, three. And do you find. So do you do anything with the data or you just do it? Does it just reassure you?

[Ed Zitron]

Oh, no, this is. This is the terrible choice if. If you wanted any. Gotcha. No. So actually I'm really interested in my sleep because I. I realized a few years ago that my sleep was fucked and I couldn't work out why I was depressed. But I've become fascinated by what, I don't know, weed or alcohol will do to me. Not that I'm like experimenting, but if I have a bad night's sleep, I like to look at it and say, all right, this does affect me. I just got this thing called a somni as well.

[George M. Johnson]

What is it?

[Ed Zitron]

It's like a thing you strapped to your head and it has little electrodes that go onto the top. It's this fellow.

[George M. Johnson]

You sleep with that on?

[Ed Zitron]

No, no, you just put it on. It does like 15 minutes before bed. It has increased my REM sleep and I have been feeling. Shocker. Yeah, yeah. I'm annoying.

[George M. Johnson]

Sorry. What does this thing do? Does it give you. Is it sending electrodes into you or something?

[Ed Zitron]

It has some sort of waves. It does in you. I should be able to say this.

[George M. Johnson]

Offhandedly, but are you finding your sleep cycles better?

[Ed Zitron]

Yes.

[George M. Johnson]

Now are you finding that the patterns your sleep cycles previously, once you've sort of indicated I'm having a crappy night's sleep, has it changed your behavior? Yes.

[Ed Zitron]

Like how? Proximity of using any substances before bed like what I eat, when I eat. That was a big thing. Like eating late. I also.

[George M. Johnson]

Oh, wow. Okay. So you are. You really are digging into the date.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah. Because otherwise, why am I wearing this thing that on dating apps convinces people that I'm married. Yeah, it's very fucking annoying.

[George M. Johnson]

There's something interesting about, you know, the adoption of these sort of technologies, like athletes, for example, will.

[Ed Zitron]

Oh, yes.

[George M. Johnson]

Clearly fall back to things like the whoop band and. Oh, well. Or not. They'll wear a Garmin or like, they'll wear these technologies that have been around for a long time for athletes. But. But, you know, the Iwatchers of this world or the. You know, the iWatch.

[Ed Zitron]

No, no, no, that. No, that just means you've been around a while. You're just still saying the shit before they'd even announced it.

[George M. Johnson]

But, yeah, so what's interesting to me is these, you know, the subtlety of technology while it calms down and gives you what you need. Hopefully that changes your psychology. Now, we don't. You don't necessarily see that on the phone because all the phone does is kind of distract you or take you down a rabbit or. So I was just super curious about what your behavior is, your relationship with that sort of tech. But it is, because I'm pushed away from all of it.

[Ed Zitron]

I generally do. Like I. With my workouts, I track my calories. And that is emotional.

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah, good on you.

[Ed Zitron]

No, that is absolutely emotional.

[George M. Johnson]

That's a good use case for that.

[Ed Zitron]

But if I. But, oh, no, I use it. But this is the ultimate tech bullshit, though. I don't use this to track all my workouts. I track boxing with this.

[George M. Johnson]

Oh, you do? You box with the ring on?

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah.

[George M. Johnson]

You bandage your hand up like that with the ring on?

[Ed Zitron]

No, you get quick wraps on.

[George M. Johnson]

Okay.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah.

[George M. Johnson]

It doesn't crush your fingers, haven't they?

[Ed Zitron]

It did with certain wraps.

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah, but it's. It's not the lowest profile ring. That's why I'm asking.

[Ed Zitron]

No, it's really not. It's like the chunky one. Victoria's song of the Verge was. Was.

[George M. Johnson]

Are we spending too much time on the aura?

[Ed Zitron]

I don't care. This is my show. Do whatever the hell I want. I can say fucking shit and balls and all that. It is funny, though, because all of this talk about nostalgia, it is kind of where even I personally am leaning. I'm listening to fucking metal from 15 years ago. My favorite, in Flames, that album is colony, which is 20 years old and barely resembles the band anymore. Like one of my favorite movies is the Guardians of the Galaxy movie, the first one, which is inherently nostalgic. And those movies got shit as all it became about was nostalgic. And now I've just had a live thought, which is, that is the thing that's. That is actually something that's driving a lot of culture, which is the reason the Marvel movies did well at the beginning was they were fun, they were nostalgic. They had these characters you'd love to see. And they got progressively worse as these companies were like, okay, what do people like about this? Fuck it. It's the people they recognize. Look, it's the guy from the thing. The corporatization of nostalgia.

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah.

[Ed Zitron]

I think it's a.

[George M. Johnson]

But it does get rebooted. Right. So if you look at the music videos that are playing back here, half those soundtracks. And I'm paraphrasing this, are using a soundtrack that's retro.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah.

[George M. Johnson]

And there's something. It's familiar. Right. You hear this backbeat thing that seems like that's funky trim drama from, you know, James Brown. You hear that in the track and think, okay, there's a reason why that works, because it's just good. And there's something about the time that.

[Ed Zitron]

That was done, and it wasn't created to scale.

[George M. Johnson]

Right. Serious AI.

[Ed Zitron]

They're putting even aside generative AI for now. I just mean, like, because if you look at this, there would be multiple things on TikTok where it's like a band just popped up and you're like, wow, they're so good. Or people have said this and it's turned out to be like, they're pretending to be a garage pen, but it's actually a signed artist with United. And it's.

[George M. Johnson]

It does bait and switch.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah. And there's so much of it now. And there are things that are made to be. To appear normal and natural that are absolutely not. And I think people are craving normality again. They're craving things that don't feel mass produced.

[George M. Johnson]

I agree with you.

[Ed Zitron]

It's a funny time.

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah. I wrote about craft this week, and it was really just about, you know, if you've got all these tools that make you feel like happy hands.

[Ed Zitron]

What do you mean, happy hands?

[George M. Johnson]

Like, very excited.

[Ed Zitron]

All right.

[George M. Johnson]

And I can defend that all day, every day, but what I lean towards is craft, you know, I will. Although every day. Rather a pen and pencil than trying to scribble something down on my iPad, you know?

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah.

[George M. Johnson]

So there's just something more visceral. And I'm I'm leaning towards that as a test to make sure I'm not losing my rods and cones, that. That it's not just down this rabbit's warren of distraction that I can actually be, you know, back to creation.

[Ed Zitron]

Are you? Well, you say. You say you're, like, aware of your phone nagging you. Are you generally, do you surround yourself with tech or do you.

[George M. Johnson]

No, I'll push back.

[Ed Zitron]

How so?

[George M. Johnson]

So I had all the tech that made me look like a tribal leader like you. I mean, I get it, dude, but I did it when I don't. Gamifying data doesn't excite me about myself.

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[George M. Johnson]

And it's not that interesting. And so the thing that's wild for me is nature. I mean, tech is. Yeah, it's great to know, but what am I going to do with it? And I don't know if I want to do that with it, whatever that is. So, no, I try not to. I'm trying to push back to, you know. No, not trying to push back. I'm trying to restrict the amount of things that occupy my mind and take my attention away from creating.

[Ed Zitron]

And what are you creating and is it for. Is it just for you?

[George M. Johnson]

I know I'm right, you know. Yeah, it is really. I have this concept of addition of one. It really is just for me. And it doesn't matter if it doesn't scale. And, you know, I'm a classically trained designer, so I'm back to full design outside of my creative practice. And I have a wet studio. So I'm in the married studio. Yeah, I'm married to an artist.

[Ed Zitron]

We have, you know, what is a wet studio?

[George M. Johnson]

We have paints in the thing that are constantly dry. I mean, it's very practical, dude. And it's not screen free. A lot of it is just back to articulating things, you know, playing music, you know, things that actually feel like I play guitar, sing all that rubbish. But it's fun. But it's. Oh, it's fantastic. I love more of that than just sort of being a participant. Yeah, I'd rather be actively participating in it, which is why I can't stand sports. I mean, I can't stand sitting and watching sports. I'd rather play football if I'm gonna, you know, I'd rather go out in the field and kick if I'm gonna kick.

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[George M. Johnson]

I can't really sit back and watch. It drives me nuts.

[Ed Zitron]

Interesting.

[George M. Johnson]

But there's something about kind of just taking that position of the polymath. I Got lots of ideas that I want to express. Let's get them down on paper.

[Ed Zitron]

But they're expressed for you rather than.

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah. Unless others find it interesting. I've got a fashion collab that I'm doing and I've got these artisans and craft people in. In Mexico that are actually hand stitching this embroidery instead of digital embroidery, which I could have done. And finding it sitting. It's sitting on the fabric differently. I mean, it's all of these things that are slow crafts. They're bloody. It's just awesome, dude. It really is.

[Ed Zitron]

No, it's.

[George M. Johnson]

It slows me down and puts me in a place that feels more conscious.

[Ed Zitron]

It's funny because this show came from a newsletter that I wrote for 300 people. 58,500 now. And this show started with a lot of people being very unfair to me on Reddit. And I will admit I changed.

[George M. Johnson]

Welcome to the Internet.

[Ed Zitron]

Oh, no. Fuck, yeah. I didn't change shit. I just kept doing it until I felt good. And it's interesting how the show's done well based on that rather than trying to change it for anyone, partly because I didn't. I never really understood why I would change for them. Like, I was like, horse idiot. 55 has told me they don't like it when I say this. What the fuck am I meant to do? Write it down and like avoid the word fuck that. It just. It feels that that is also another thing plaguing creatives, that there is this apparent source of derision and judgment on tap.

[George M. Johnson]

Right.

[Ed Zitron]

And you have to do that to scale, to do that. And the desperation for engagement is kind of sucking the joy out of even the process. It's too slow. It must be done this fast. We must be timely.

[George M. Johnson]

Yeah, but there's one thing that's definitive, is there's only certain amount of time in a day, isn't there? You can't create new version of it, but you can participate in it differently. I think this has been an interesting conversation for me because I didn't know what we were going to and chat about, if anything.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah.

[George M. Johnson]

And I'm admirer of your work, so congrats on all you're doing.

[Ed Zitron]

Thank you so much. Shingi. I think we can wrap it there. Where can people find you?

[George M. Johnson]

Shingy. You know, the Interwebs.

[Ed Zitron]

Yes, but where? Okay, I'll put it in the app.

[George M. Johnson]

I'm easily found on LinkedIn. Just look up Shingy. You could go to my dot com. I'm there too. Hanging out. Yeah, yeah, but you know it's yeah. This has been a blast. Thanks for coming in on a a hot streak about Jen, of course. And we exit out on pottery. Who the hell knows.

[Ed Zitron]

Joyous created my mom's potter as well. Kzitron all right, you've been listening to me. My name's Ed Zitron. You can Google the who destroyed Google search and you will find the answer is me. Thank you so much to Daniel Goodman, our wonderful producer here in New York. And thank you of course to all of you for listening. You'll now hear a very similar message after the I recorded in February of last year and I swear I'm going to re record Matt Esauski and I were talking about this yesterday. Peace out. Thank you for listening to Better Offline. The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song is Matt Owski. You can check out more of his music and audio [e-mail] matt o s o w s k-I.com you can email me at ezeteroffline.com or visit betteroffline.com to find more podcast links and of course, my newsletter. I also really recommend you go to chat wheresyoured at to visit the Discord and go to R betteroffline to check out our Reddit. Thank you so much for listening. Better Offline is a production of Cool Zone Media.

[George M. Johnson]

For more from Cool Zone Media this Visit our website coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts.

[Shannon Schuyler]

Or wherever you get your podcasts. In a world of economic uncertainty and workplace transformation, learn to lead by example from visionary C Suite executives like Shannon Schuyler of PwC and Will Pearson of iHeartMedia. The good teacher explains the great Teacher inspires.

[Brendan Patrick Hughes]

Don't always leave your team to do the work that's been the most important part of how to Lead by Example. Example.

[Shannon Schuyler]

Listen to Leading by Example executives making an impact on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Brendan Patrick Hughes]

45 years ago, a Virginia soul band called the Edge of Daybreak recorded their debut album Behind Bars. Record collectors consider it a masterpiece. The band's surviving members are long out of prison, but they say they have have some unfinished business.

[Ed Zitron]

The Edge of Daybreak Eyes of Love was supposed to have been followed up by another album.

[Brendan Patrick Hughes]

Listen to Soul incarcerated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[George M. Johnson]

I'm ready to fight. Oh, this is fighting words. Okay, I'll put the hammer back. Hi, I'm George M. Johnson, a best selling author with the second most banned book in America. Now more than ever, we need to use our voices to fight back.

[Ed Zitron]

Part of the power of black queer creativity is the fact that we got us.

[George M. Johnson]

You know, we are the greatest culture.

[Shannon Schuyler]

Makers in world history.

[George M. Johnson]

Listen to fighting words on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Bob Pittman]

Hi, I'm Bob Pippman, chairman and CEO of iHeartMedia. I'm excited to introduce a brand new season of my podcast, Math and Magic Stories from the frontiers of Marketing. I'm having conversations with some folks across a wide range of industries to hear how they reach the top of their fields and the lessons they learned along the way that everyone can use. I'll be joined by innovative leaders like chairman and CEO of Elf Beauty Tarang Amin, legendary singer, songwriter and philanthropist Jewel.

[George M. Johnson]

Being a rock star is very fun, but helping people is way more fun.

[Bob Pittman]

And Damian Maldonado, CEO of American Finance.

[George M. Johnson]

I figured out the formula. I just have to work hard.

[Ed Zitron]

Then that's magic.

[Bob Pittman]

Join me as we uncover innovations in data and analytics, the math and the ever important creative spark, the magic. Listen to math and Magic on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.