Radio Better Offline: Pablo Torre and David Roth

Summary

Podcast Summary: Better Offline – "Radio Better Offline: Pablo Torre and David Roth"

Episode Details

• Title: Radio Better Offline: Pablo Torre and David Roth
• Release Date: June 18, 2025
• Hosted By: Ed Zitron
• Guests: Pablo Torre and David Roth
• Produced By: Cool Zone Media and iHeartPodcasts

---

Introduction and Guest Overview (00:00 - 04:05)

The episode begins with host Ed Zitron introducing the show and his guests, Pablo Torre of "Pablo Torre Finds Out" and David Roth of Defector and co-owner of a turtle named Marvin. Ed humorously shares anecdotes about David's turtle, setting a lighthearted tone for the discussion.

Notable Quote:

• Ed Zitron [03:15]: "Today I'm joined by the incredible Pablo Torre of Pablo Torre Finds Out and David Roth of Defector, co-owner of Defector and a turtle, I believe."

---

Innovative Podcast Formats and Storytelling (04:05 - 15:00)

Ed praises both Pablo and David for their unique approaches to sports journalism, emphasizing that their work transcends traditional sports narratives to explore broader cultural and societal themes. He highlights Pablo's investigative work on Bill Belichick and Jordan Hudson, noting its depth and relevance beyond mere sports gossip.

Notable Quotes:

• Ed Zitron [06:26]: "I think both of you have also done something really incredible with the format... it's not just about sports."
• Pablo Torre [10:53]: "What if I could do that for journalism? And so I did exhaustive, insanely exhaustive reporting into the Bill Belichick, Jordan Hudson question..."

---

Challenges in Modern Media and Discoverability (15:00 - 26:07)

The guests delve into the difficulties of media discoverability in the age of personalized algorithms and fragmented audiences. Pablo discusses his experiences with private equity in sports media, particularly his transition to independence after Meadowlark’s involvement. David and Ed share insights on sustaining independent media ventures amidst financial and operational challenges.

Notable Quotes:

• Pablo Torre [16:06]: "We're trying to be an actual news magazine in an era in which news magazines are either compromised in various ways or just dumb dead now."
• David Roth [24:04]: "But when someone is doing that to you for information that you need to understand the world around you... that is criminal."

---

Private Equity’s Impact on Sports Teams (26:07 - 43:36)

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the influence of private equity in sports, using the Pittsburgh Pirates and New York Yankees as case studies. The guests critique how profit-driven ownership models prioritize financial gains over team performance and fan satisfaction. They contrast this with more empathetic ownership exemplified by Steve Cohen’s management of the New York Mets, highlighting his efforts to foster a positive team environment despite his controversial reputation.

Notable Quotes:

• Ed Zitron [70:39]: "It's like, I don't know. This show was quite successful in part because iHeartRadio put it on the fucking..."
• David Roth [70:46]: "This is where I'd put the, the emphasis on like the difference for what Defector does not want to become Fox."

---

Authenticity and Engagement in Podcasting (43:36 - 58:22)

Ed, Pablo, and David explore the essence of authenticity in podcasting, criticizing mainstream podcasts for lacking genuine curiosity and depth. They advocate for meaningful conversations that go beyond surface-level discussions, emphasizing the importance of hosts and guests who are passionate and knowledgeable about their subjects.

Notable Quotes:

• David Roth [36:26]: "The challenge for me, though, is I want to be as good at talking or as knowledgeable as whoever is on. And for the most part, I'm not."
• Pablo Torre [37:40]: "When it comes to media, the future of media, it's just impossible to disentangle every conversation I ever have from the fact that we are working in some direct or stochastic way for tech companies."

---

The Rot Economy and Growth-at-All-Costs Mentality (58:22 - 77:11)

The conversation shifts to a critical examination of the "rot economy" prevalent in both the tech and sports industries, where growth and profit often take precedence over quality and sustainability. They discuss how this mentality leads to superficial content, poor team performance, and ethical compromises. The guests call for a shift towards values-driven practices that prioritize long-term integrity over short-term gains.

Notable Quotes:

• Ed Zitron [70:23]: "This is the rot economy is the growth at all cost thing. People don't know why they want to grow. They just want to grow."
• Pablo Torre [75:06]: "The whole idea of like the part of sports that is seemingly elemental is here, our goal is to win."

---

Sustainability and Future of Independent Media (77:11 - 90:04)

Pablo and David discuss strategies for sustaining independent media outlets in a crowded and monetization-challenged landscape. They emphasize the importance of passion-driven content, diversified revenue streams (such as subscriptions and podcasts), and maintaining editorial independence to produce meaningful journalism.

Notable Quotes:

• Pablo Torre [79:32]: "The future of media and everything is that we're all only fans now. Which is to say, there's a bunch of stuff that's wildly popular that's just not my kink."
• David Roth [83:49]: "Defector.com is the website. It is a subscription site, but you can read a few articles for free and decide if you like it."

---

Conclusion and Final Thoughts (90:04 - End)

In their concluding remarks, Ed, Pablo, and David reiterate the importance of authentic, well-researched content that engages listeners on a deeper level. They encourage listeners to support independent media and reflect on the broader implications of profit-driven models in shaping media and sports industries.

Notable Quotes:

• Ed Zitron [93:35]: "This is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonemedia.com."
• Pablo Torre [94:55]: "You all working off the same text. Everybody fundamentally understands what they're talking about. There's just a lot of different ways to talk about it. It should be a healthier ecosystem than it is for that reason."

---

Key Takeaways

• Authenticity Matters: Genuine passion and knowledge enhance the quality of journalism and podcasting.
• Private Equity Concerns: Profit-driven ownership can compromise the integrity and performance of sports teams.
• Media Discoverability: Personalized algorithms and fragmented audiences pose significant challenges for independent media growth.
• Rot Economy: The relentless pursuit of growth and profit can degrade content quality and stakeholder satisfaction.
• Support Independent Media: Listeners are encouraged to subscribe and support platforms that prioritize meaningful, unbiased journalism.

---

Final Notes

This episode of Better Offline offers a profound critique of current trends in both media and sports industries, advocating for more authentic, sustainable, and ethically driven practices. Through insightful discussions with experts like Pablo Torre and David Roth, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the systemic issues affecting journalism and sports, as well as potential pathways for positive change.

For more information:

• Pablo Torre: www.pabshow.com
• David Roth: Defector.com
• Better Offline: betteroffline.com

---

This summary captures the essence of the conversation between Ed Zitron, Pablo Torre, and David Roth, highlighting their perspectives on media authenticity, private equity in sports, and the challenges of independent journalism in the modern digital landscape.

Transcript

[Ed Zitron]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Unknown (Oracle Ad Speaker)]

In business they say you can have better, cheaper or faster, but you only get to pick two. What if you could have all three at the same time? That's exactly what Cohere, Thomson Reuters and Specialized Bikes have since they upgraded to the next generation of the cloud. Oracle Cloud Infrastructure OCI is the blazing fast platform for your infrastructure, database, application development and AI needs where you can run any workload in a high availability, consistently high performance environment and spend less than you would with other clouds. How is it faster? OCI's block storage gives you more operations per second cheaper. OCI costs up to 50% less for computing, 70% less for storage and 80% less for networking better. In test after test, OCI customers report lower latency and higher bandwidth versus other clouds. This is the cloud built for AI and all your biggest workloads right now with zero commitment. Try OCI for free. Head to oracle.com strategic that's oracle.com strategic.

[Unknown (Anabe Ad Speaker)]

This July 4th celebrate freedom from spills, stains and overpriced furniture with Anabe, the only machine washable sofa inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly pricing. So sofas start at just $699, making it the perfect time to upgrade your space. Annabe's pet friendly stain resistant and interchangeable slipcovers are made with high performance fabric that's built for real life. You'll love the cloud like comfort of hypoallergenic high resilience foam that never needs fluffing and a durable steel frame that stands the test of time with modular pieces you can rearrange anytime. It's a sofa that adapts to your Life. Now through July 4th get up to 60% off site [e-mail] Every order comes with a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping, no restocking fees. Every penny back. Declare independence from dirty outdated furniture. Shop [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[David Roth]

Wanna pull off the season's freshest trends?

[Unknown (Anabe Ad Speaker)]

You just need the right shoes. That's where designer shoe Warehouse comes in.

[David Roth]

Loving wide leg jeans.

[Unknown (Anabe Ad Speaker)]

Pair them with sleek low profile sneakers.

[David Roth]

Obsessed with the sheer trend.

[Unknown (Anabe Ad Speaker)]

Try it with mesh flats.

[David Roth]

Feeling Boho comfy sandals. Nail the whole free spirited thing. Find on trend shoes from the brands.

[Unknown (Anabe Ad Speaker)]

You love like Birkenstock, Nike, Adidas and more at DSW.

[David Roth]

Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days. Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. And every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn [e-mail] credit card based on the February 2024 Nielsen reportzone media.

[Ed Zitron]

Every morning I wake up to 100 punishments, each worse than the last. All so that I can bring you the greatest podcast of all time. I'm Ed Zitron and this is Better Offline. Better offline. Now that we've got that out of the way, we've got many new items in the Better Offline merch store. Go and buy them. There's a zip hoodie, which I fucking love, and a word mark shirt, T shirt, and there's a hat. It's lovely. You can also get infant clothing. And I think, like, if you put that on a baby, though, they will take the baby from you. Anyway, so today I'm joined by the incredible Pablo Torre of. Pablo Torre finds out. And David Roth of Defector, co owner of Defector and a turtle, I believe.

[David Roth]

Yes, I do. I am the co owner of a turtle.

[Ed Zitron]

What's the turtle's name?

[David Roth]

Turtle's name is Marvin.

[Ed Zitron]

Marvin.

[David Roth]

And he is. Well, it was a pair of turtles, but Marvin is the surviving turtle. Oh, yeah, it's fine. The other guy had a good, long life. George had a good, long life. And something you don't learn when a man sells you a turtle out of a bucket of drywall on Canal Street. Is it?

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, you got a Chinatown turtle.

[David Roth]

Yeah, I got a Chinatown turtle on an impulse 24 years ago.

[Ed Zitron]

Oh, wow. So you've had them a while.

[David Roth]

Yeah, they live for forever. Like the people that the vets that treat them are also the vets that treat birds. And the lady that when I took Marvin to the vet because he'd been eating parts of the tank, I was told this was normal, that they. Whatever is around goes in and then it stays there until such time as he starts acting alarmingly enough that you take him to the vet. She also treats birds and she was like, yeah, this is a thing with your pets that are basically dinosaurs is that if left to their own devices, they will live for as long as their owners.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Roth]

Which is cool to think about for the rest of my life. I got this little pet. He doesn't like me. Like, that's pretty.

[Ed Zitron]

Do they show affection?

[David Roth]

No. I mean, no. Like it would be hard to tell, like, if I pick him up and, like, you know, give him some pets on his shoulder.

[Pablo Torre]

Does he appreciate your Bernie Sanders?

[David Roth]

I do communicate with him in a series of accents. Yeah. It's not a lot of.

[Ed Zitron]

He responds well to Bernie.

[David Roth]

I am once again asking that you eat this piece of radicchio. I blow it into your tank. Yeah, he. Well, I guess that is how he responds to it, is by eating the piece of radicchio that I've lowered into his tank. He loves chicories.

[Ed Zitron]

What's chicory?

[David Roth]

Any kind of chicories. You know, your cabbages.

[Ed Zitron]

Oh, okay.

[David Roth]

I didn't know Castelfranco. I know Pablo knows what I'm talking about.

[Ed Zitron]

This is a tape podcast.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm mostly here to throw Bernie Sanders cues and cabbage references.

[David Roth]

Yeah, thank you.

[Pablo Torre]

Back and forth with Rob.

[Ed Zitron]

And that's what we're talking about today. So both of you guys are some of the most gifted sports broadcasters and writers I've ever met. I'm not blowing smoke. I don't give freebies. But I think both of you have also done something really incredible with, like, the format in the sense that it's not like it's about sports in so much as sports is part of the world and culture itself, even. And Pablo, your, like, Jordan Hudson thing and the Bill Belichick stuff, that was fascinating to me, despite honestly wanting to know less about Bill Belichick, who is the former. And the many non sports.

[Pablo Torre]

I love the disclosures here.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, yeah. The many non sports listeners are going to say a sports episode. How dare you. Oh, my God. Do you want to hear me talk about Kevin Roose again? I'll do it in, like, one day. I'll probably do it on this podcast.

[David Roth]

You're already doing.

[Ed Zitron]

I'm already doing it.

[David Roth]

But it's fascinating because underline that. I could give you 90 minutes on the turtle. We already know that that's true. So that threat will hang over the rest of this podcast.

[Ed Zitron]

Oh, I'm getting emails asking about more stuff.

[Pablo Torre]

I don't have turtles.

[David Roth]

Wait, well, I didn't even ask. Have you?

[Pablo Torre]

So to talking of ended poorly.

[Ed Zitron]

Small, old wretched things. Bill Belichick is the coach now of unc. University of North Carolina football coach. And he was the coach of the New England Patriots. And he has a girlfriend who is 24 years old. So it's not really about the sports. It's about that there's just this random woman who has ingratiated herself into Dunkin Donuts commercials and the like. And you kind of broke that story open in a very interesting way where it wasn't like just you on your own talking about a. I forget who else you had on.

[Pablo Torre]

Katie Nolan and Michael Cruise came as my accomplices in this journalistic act of alleged malpractice.

[Ed Zitron]

Oh, and some say malpractice. According to Bill Simmons, who will explain shortly.

[Pablo Torre]

The bills. The bills in general aren't. Aren't necessarily cottoning.

[David Roth]

Most of your upper New England bills have had some issues with it.

[Ed Zitron]

Your William problems. Yeah. And it's funny because the way you tell that story is not. You get a lot of people who do the talking to the camera stuff, but it feels that you kind of regale people with the tales and the journalism while also doing quite firm, well researched stuff as well.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. I was inspired by one of the things that has baffled me the most on YouTube, which is the unboxing video. Because the unboxing video. Once I learned that there's this kid. I assume your audience is very familiar with Ryan's toys.

[Ed Zitron]

I'm not.

[David Roth]

So I weirdly am familiar with Ryan's toys. And I don't. I don't have children and my niece and nephew do not watch that shit.

[Ed Zitron]

And yet Ryan, my child does not watch YouTube ever.

[David Roth]

But this is just. It's a kid with a channel.

[Pablo Torre]

I believe we've watched Ryan, the eponymous Ryan, truly age in real time.

[David Roth]

31 years old.

[Pablo Torre]

Remarkable. He's been making like NBA max contract money. Beyond that. Well beyond that now. I mean, the second.

[Ed Zitron]

But. And he just unbucks.

[Pablo Torre]

But toys. Ryan's toys. His parents bring him toys that he then opens up and plays with. And the audience is in the tens of millions. He is an archetype on YouTube. He's a. He is a genre unto himself that has inspired so many imitators. All of which spoke to something fascinating because you're watching. Again. Take the. If you can put that pedophilia aside for a second.

[Ed Zitron]

Okay.

[Pablo Torre]

And you're just watching a kid open toys. The question.

[David Roth]

I say things like that. That's not nice.

[Pablo Torre]

Legally speaking, Roth. You know what I do.

[David Roth]

I understand.

[Pablo Torre]

You know what I have to do. Legally speaking. I had a talk with you before we walked in.

[David Roth]

Yep.

[Pablo Torre]

You said you wouldn't call me out on my. On my disclosure.

[David Roth]

Nice and fair. Think you were serious. I thought you were bluffing. I thought it was a power thing.

[Pablo Torre]

Listen, Circumnance, if you just take this as a. Why is this so popular question. Right. There is something fascinating about it. You are Watching you are vicariously living through someone else. Authentically be surprised and delighted by something inside of a box.

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

And this format has been imitated, copied, spread throughout YouTube. And so the whole idea of what if I could authentically surprise and delight a friend of mine, not with a. I don't even know if a Power Ranger is a reference.

[David Roth]

Yeah.

[Ed Zitron]

But something you found.

[Pablo Torre]

But journalism, actually. What if the toy is journalism that they can then open up and play with and poke at and ask me questions about, what if I did that? What if I could just sort of channel the thing that the sun God, that is the algorithm, seems to enjoy about the unboxing video? What if I could do that for journalism?

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

And so I did exhaustive, insanely exhaustive reporting into the Bill Belichick, Jordan Hudson question, which is also a story about the highest paid employee in the state of North Carolina, public employee, who is also the archetype of a certain privacy, discretion. Do your jobness. Sun Tzu cosplay now being sort of the opposite, inverted by this woman who is now running his life beyond just the age gap stuff. What if I could do that for Katie Nolan and Michael Cruz Kane and surprise and delight them with. With what I had investigated.

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

And so that's kind of my solution to trying to make YouTube content and.

[Ed Zitron]

Also kind of like a kind of radio show host as well. You've got like quite an interesting setup as well.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, man. We're trying to do. Look, the show is audio first. Insofar as when I edit the show, I am only listening to it.

[Ed Zitron]

You're editing it on your own.

[Pablo Torre]

We have a staff of a half dozen people who are on the editorial side, but me, I always.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, I imagine you're right.

[David Roth]

Just.

[Ed Zitron]

I was gonna say if you did that all your own, that sounds night.

[David Roth]

Connecting Steven Soderbergh mode. Just five different credits, different names, just.

[Pablo Torre]

Iphones shooting everything on iPhones. I am doing a pass, an editorial pass in which I am making cuts and all that stuff, restructuring. But I'm only listening because I want someone who's only listening to not have the question of like, it feels like they thought about a second.

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

But also we are a three camera setup in our studio such that we are a YouTube show so that nobody watching on YouTube thinks they thought about us second. And so we are kind of torturing ourselves to be a fully fledged product. And already you can sense the sort of like the discomfort viscerally of being a journalist who is making a product that I've analogized to a YouTube channel that is definitely not for pedophiles.

[David Roth]

We've established that.

[Ed Zitron]

Thank you.

[Pablo Torre]

Just for saying. I say this more clearly, but. But trying to be where people are with the knowledge that they probably won't switch platforms. They'll probably just going to live wherever we find them. And we just got to. We just gotta give them hopefully something that they can spend some time.

[Ed Zitron]

And you're fully independent or are you backed by someone like.

[Pablo Torre]

Is Dan Lebatard a corporate monolith?

[Ed Zitron]

I don't know who that is.

[David Roth]

I love that technically he's a private equity entity.

[Ed Zitron]

No, that's how you say that.

[David Roth]

Do you know about the Metalheart's actually really interesting.

[Ed Zitron]

No, I don't. But also I thought he was Lebartard. Well, like the French Lebastard.

[David Roth]

The French bread.

[Ed Zitron]

Yes, the French bastard. Dan the bastard.

[Pablo Torre]

Dan the bastard is my corporate partner.

[Ed Zitron]

Damn, that's a real disappointment.

[Pablo Torre]

A Cuban guy with a French name who looks white. All of this is very.

[David Roth]

What a country. Only in the world. Sorry.

[Ed Zitron]

Disappointed in his mind, but beautiful.

[David Roth]

You should. I like. I would love. Yeah. Pablo may be too modest to do it. Metal Arc is an interesting experiment. You should talk about it.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. So basically, dan LeBatard left ESPN, took his RSS feed with him, which is the key to starting a new business and microwaving a business is have your audience with you, have your feed. Right. And so what he did was he partnered with John Skipper, who's the former president of espn.

[Ed Zitron]

Nice.

[Pablo Torre]

And they did not want to hire any ad salespeople. And so their licensing partner wound up being DraftKings. And DraftKings, you may know from every ad you've ever seen during a sporting event and otherwise. The point being that Dan, who wanted freedom, wanted editorial non interference whenever possible, found an arrangement in which, yes, the company got to choose its own editorial docket, got backed by this company in which, by the way, I don't know if you paid attention to sports or betting.

[David Roth]

I have not.

[Pablo Torre]

But they have the money now.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, it's kind of getting in bed with one devil, I guess.

[Pablo Torre]

And for legal reasons as well, I will not comment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Religion. No, no. It was devilry.

[David Roth]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

But, but, but the. The short answer to where I am is that they funded Meadowlark, decided we want to start a new show from scratch. We want to trust this guy that we are friends with and know and hopefully trusted. And I got to create a show from scratch in now the vision that you have seen or heard. But where I Am now to speedrun through my trajectory briefly is that Palatore finds out is no longer in the licensing deal with DraftKings. We are now independent with Meadowlark as our co owner, but looking for a partner.

[Ed Zitron]

Okay.

[Pablo Torre]

And so if you're listening out there and you have a maybe OpenAI.

[David Roth]

Yeah, they're definitely very good. Oh, they're good. Oh, they.

[Ed Zitron]

They got money now.

[Pablo Torre]

But we just met with Palantir.

[David Roth]

That's great. Yeah, they really understand your audience. You should know the Social Security number.

[Ed Zitron]

Everything about your audience.

[Pablo Torre]

The WWE is not presenting us, actually.

[David Roth]

And Jeril, what is interesting to me about this, as somebody who also works in independent media. We'll talk about that in a moment. I guess the. The way that you spent the money that you got from the corporate partner was like, obviously the show looks good, it looks pro. It sounds good. Like there are talented people working on it. I have friends. Jeb Lund did it was a guy that I do another podcast with Hallmark movies. Not about sports or. Yes, but like.

[Pablo Torre]

And subscribe.

[David Roth]

Yeah. But did a feature with you guys and was like, I'm not. I wouldn't say I was jealous exactly, but I was very impressed with the repertorial apparatus behind all of this. That it's like, it seemed more like working with 60 Minutes than it would be like doing a story for Defector.

[Pablo Torre]

You're so much better at pitching my.

[Ed Zitron]

Show than I am.

[David Roth]

I don't know, man. But what I mean by this was that basically, like, there were producers, there were people that were like, I'll file that FOIA for you. I will do.

[Pablo Torre]

We are trying to be an actual news magazine in an era in which news magazines are either compromised in various ways or just dumb dead now.

[Ed Zitron]

Just kind of given up on doing that.

[David Roth]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

So, Jeb, by the way, who, I cannot stress this enough, co hosts a pod with David Roth about Hallmark.

[Ed Zitron]

Okay, you can joke about this, but every single. During CES, we did like 13 and a half hours of audio.

[David Roth]

It's not even an exaggeration.

[Ed Zitron]

Every single episode. And I did three 30 minute breaks, so sections. Even at the end, I was like, david, what podcast you do? And every time, like, joylessly. Yeah, okay, so this is crazy.

[David Roth]

I don't like promoting my shit. And it also felt weird because I was not holding myself out as an expert, but the. The idea of, you know, I'm going off about, like, there shouldn't be AI and vacuum cleaners, bitch. You know, and just trying.

[Ed Zitron]

You do say that.

[David Roth]

Trying to be big energy on It. And then at the end, if you like that, you're going to love me. Like breaking down the worst performances of Candace Cameron's career. Every two months, a guy who kind.

[Ed Zitron]

Of looks like Chad Michael Murray or.

[David Roth]

Chad Michael Murray or Chad Michael Murray. Sometimes you do get Chad Michael Murray. But yes, it is like a. Anyway, we're off. We're far field.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, that's.

[Pablo Torre]

You said just to catch you. Pull up was we had Jeb Ludden as a correspondent looking into his alma mater, which happened to be the college in Florida that Ron DeSantis had taken over. Oh, yeah, the new College of Florida. And he had taken it over, it turns out, by basically bombing it with baseball players. So they turned over the student body, repoliticizing it, replacing, you may even say great replacement. Varying them. The students this deep and proud history of like, of liberal arts, of like, of like hippie dumb even.

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

Replaced by baseball player recruits so that they could then change the demographics of the institution as well as refocus everything in the model of various.

[Ed Zitron]

Imagine if they tried to put any of this fucking effort into literally anything else.

[David Roth]

Yeah, it's all pranks, basically. This.

[Pablo Torre]

What if Christopher Ruffo, who shows up in that episode. What if he tried to do other things?

[David Roth]

Yeah, what if he tried. What if he tried jumping out of a helicopter?

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[David Roth]

I don't know.

[Ed Zitron]

He could even have a mic, maybe.

[David Roth]

That's not. Yeah, sure. That's nice of you to say. That's an idea, certainly.

[Ed Zitron]

No, no, no. Just we are just riffing.

[David Roth]

Yeah.

[Ed Zitron]

You don't know.

[David Roth]

Having fun.

[Ed Zitron]

Could be a piano in that.

[David Roth]

He could do anything. Maybe he flies. We don't know. Yeah, but the bit that I wanted to underline with that though, is that like, that sort of journalism is hard and expensive, but it is also. It doesn't have to come out the other end as like morally safer sitting in a chair talking to a whistleblower. Like, the bit that I have enjoyed the most about the. Certainly the bit about Jordan Hudson is good for this. I mean, it's good on its own. But so much of when we talk about journalism, we talk about the dangerous state that it's in. And all of that is true. It's also fun. Like, it is a cool thing to do with your time. And the bit that I think you captured in that, which is sort of like at the core of what makes a good podcast good, is that like when you're reporting a story, there's this like, sort of like Flowers for Algernon bit where like, for 90 minutes after you file the story, you are an expert on a thing that you just did all this reading and all this reporting on. And then if you're like me, slowly the curtain drops, and then when it goes back up, it's just like a 1989 Dave Magadan baseball card at an empty stage. All of that goes away. But when you know your shit and you're like, telling people crazy stuff that they don't know and they're responding to it, like, first of all, you feel more interesting than you actually are. But also like, I've been on both sides of it. It is fun.

[Ed Zitron]

You also learn more about the material as you get someone to bounce it off of it.

[Pablo Torre]

But I think that that part, like, thank you for again pitching the show better than I could because the premise.

[David Roth]

I'm angling for a job.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, well, listen, Mr. Freelance PR, you kill one more turtle. Something on your hands. To me, the idea here is that this stuff doesn't need to just be, you know, a you ought to proposition. It's like you want to actually hang out while we're doing journalism, right? And that part of like, it is stupid but smart. It is highbrow, but lowbrow. It is fundamentally silly and also nutritious in some meaningful way. That's why I love. And I'm not yet tired by my job.

[Ed Zitron]

And I'm same way with better offline because, yeah, I don't bother to worry so much about whether I'm perfect, as many people email me. Thank you.

[David Roth]

It's nice to have people reminding you.

[Ed Zitron]

Thank you. Oh, there's a slight echo in the room. There's a slight echo in my heart now.

[David Roth]

Great note, but it's.

[Ed Zitron]

You get to talk about this stuff that's very serious. But when you read object objective, quote, unquote, journalists, it's just this dry, fucking pallid list of stuff with some degree of context versus the very human reaction you can have to the news of the day. Even if it isn't the conclusive thing, even if it's just OpenAI did this, or the very strange things that constantly happen with the Bill Belichick thing, like Jordan Hudson getting banned from unc. Like these moments, I. These moments are fascinating to discuss and lost in regular journalism, I find they just. They go, well, this happened shit.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, I also think that so much of our magnetic field in journalism is the sun God of the algorithm that I was describing before. And for me, I think, you know, Dave Makinen aside, there are just lots of Pockets of sports that are so much more fun than what the A block on a given talk show is that day. And I am somebody who often might be participating in that. A block of like, I love look. And I'm not here to say sports television. It's merely that they have dined at the same buffet for so long that there's all this other stuff. And so it's hard to not just, like, speak in the language of endless metaphor here, but, like, what if there's a restaurant that also served the other things on the menu?

[Ed Zitron]

But even one of my favorite dining experiences I had recently, my dear friend Noah Aronstein, friend of the show. I went out with him to the Yemeni Cafe, which is exactly what it sounds like, and he ordered it. And there's this guy Chris Crowley there. I think he works at New York Magazine or New Yorker. He's going to be really pissed. I forgot about that. It was so nice to just be there with two experts to just tell me what the fuck was going on. Then we went to the Long Island Bar. I think it's the place where they invented the cosplay and just having them regale with the stories.

[David Roth]

Like the Long Island Bar down on Atlantic Avenue. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good burger there, too.

[Ed Zitron]

And it was just love. No, try the cheese curds. Let me tell you about that.

[David Roth]

They're delicious.

[Ed Zitron]

Sitting around with someone who really loves and knows a shit ton about something and having a discussion about it is electric and fun. It's the basis of all. Well, not all podcasting, but it's the basis of why we like entertainment and why we have experts in general. But I feel like it's something kind of lost on modern journalists. Like, you don't. Oh, you know us. I had a journalist the other day be like, oh, yeah, they don't want us doing opinion about the subjects we write about. I don't want to fucking shoot myself. It was just like, oh, I wouldn't want the people who know stuff to talk about this. They might.

[David Roth]

It's a category error. I also think that it's one of those things where. And I understand how if you work in a serious news gathering organization, like, you would take this work seriously. But there's also something very useful about taking stupid shit seriously in this case, which is basically, this is another bit of defector experience with this. We were filing a bunch of FOIAs to UNC. Everybody is to try to figure out what are the emails exchanged between Bill Belichick and Jordan Hudson and the provost and whoever Whatever. Just for yux. We saw that one of Pablo's producers had filed hundreds.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, you saw voice?

[David Roth]

Yeah. It was funny because it's like you could see who else is sort of in there.

[Pablo Torre]

We're just doing this today, see what else people filed.

[David Roth]

But I love that, like, the idea of, I mean, all of those cost a little bit of money. All of them take some time to do. And yet it is like you're gonna get a better product out at the other end of it. But also, it's funny to spend time using the Freedom of Information act and stuff like that. It doesn't all need to be, like.

[Ed Zitron]

Chasing down this very bizarre turtle esque man. And he's extremely young. I'm not getting into the age discourse. It's not worth it.

[David Roth]

But it's the bit that people should know if they don't follow sports, is that Bill Belichick is the crustiest, nastiest dude. Just like a guy famous for being rude to reporters, rude to people.

[Ed Zitron]

He wears, like, a hoodie with holes in it.

[Pablo Torre]

He looks Donald Trump. I mean, he's something that Trump spoke about at one dais or another, where he says, there is this letter, this letter, this correspondence between Belichick and Trump. He is in many ways truly the paragon of what it means to be the greatest coach in football, many believe, and also the biggest asshole. And he is both. And so this being the character at the heart of this is partly why, yes, we did have one of our producers file hundreds of public records requests.

[David Roth]

But that's like, to me, that. And I think that all of the stuff that I remember most fondly reading has that element of, like, applying a great deal of rigor and work. Like, not just in terms of. And craft too, obviously. Like, you want it to read well and sound good and all that, but doing way more than you need to on a silly thing is, to me, like, basically a hundred times out of 100, that was.

[Ed Zitron]

And everyone has a weird proclivity they can talk about for hours. That's why I can't legally bring up JoJo's bizarre adventure on the show anymore. IHeartRadio informed me this morning. But it's just also, we all have our own things. So watching someone else do that and put real love and effort and sincerity into it is a powerful and interesting thing. And shooting the shit with some people that actually give a shit about it who might not know everything. So it's kind of like friends having a discussion, but taken seriously.

[David Roth]

Yeah, it's like the sort of dynamic that I imagine makes Rogan work for people, which is basically, like, two guys just, like, you know, going back and forth for a while. But if, like, one of those people has to know what they're talking about, ideally another one of them would be funny. Like, basically, the armature is there.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah.

[David Roth]

And then if you populate it with people that you know, like, you happen to have two really good counterpunchers in there. Katie Nolan, one of the, like, legendary radio talents of her that, like, you do that and then, like, you make sure that you know the stuff, like A to Z, like, that's. I mean, whatever. It's not revolutionary, like you said, but it is also, like, that's just a product of doing a good job.

[Pablo Torre]

It's also something that isn't incentivized, given the basic math of how to do anything now. Right. So the whole idea of, like, we're going to spend a lot of work, a lot of money. I mean, again, I cannot stress enough how much of Dan LeBatard's money I've been spending to do this stuff. And I don't expect anybody else. Like, the whole question, at a certain point that you begin to contemplate around, like, what did we do here? What is this format? Why does it work? Who else can compete with us in this category? Like, in Silicon Valley, as you know, they talk about the moat a lot, right? Like, how do you build a moat around yourself? I am pleased to report that our moat is just our weird obsessiveness and.

[Ed Zitron]

Also the people, the literally like, you and you like.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes. No, it's. Do you obsess about this enough such that you want to spend money hiring people who are going to obsess about it even more? And that is, again, if you're going to start from scratch, it's not what I would advise anyone to do.

[Ed Zitron]

I actually don't know if I agree. I. I like the high production. I think taking stuff seriously on the production level is good, but I don't know. I have. I put out a newsletter this morning, Monday, the 16th of June. I'll probably do a new podcast about it as well, but it's like, I feel like they all want the Joe Rogan of the left, and they're like, how does this keep happening? We have this amicable oaf who's curious about everything because he knows nothing. Oh, and we also have this insanely high production thing. We make sure that everything's done really well and it sounds good and it looks good, and it's well done. On social and the subject. He clearly has someone doing the research for him. Because if he has three hours of questions off the head, he may just be like a true.

[David Roth]

Oh, I don't know that he's doing any research.

[Ed Zitron]

No, I don't. I mean, for him.

[David Roth]

All right. Yeah.

[Ed Zitron]

Like, I would not be surprised if he didn't know who was in front of him. Like, who. Who's this? Jamie? That's Donald Trump. Donald Trump.

[David Roth]

Is he good?

[Ed Zitron]

Is he.

[David Roth]

Is he any good?

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, yeah. Hi. Like, it's. I mean, there's also Lex Fridman, which is just a mystery, but it's.

[David Roth]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

I have many follow ups about Lex.

[Ed Zitron]

My first question is, why can't he say a sentence? He's just like, hello.

[David Roth]

I'm always struck by this on those podcasts, things that are, like, popular that are not for me. Like, that's the story of my life. It's fin. It's just like, it's way easier for me to. Even seeing a few minutes of Ant man and the Wasp and I'm like, nope, that does not go in any of my.

[Ed Zitron]

But that makes sense.

[David Roth]

But it's also. I'm just saying that it's not for me, the idea of watching a podcast where someone who is obviously either both unprepared or just not good at talking. I don't get how that works.

[Ed Zitron]

He has mental latency. He. So during the Donald Trump interview, which I only watch bits of because I don't want to die, right. He goes, politics is a dirty game. And he just pauses and goes, how do you win at that game? This is the most popular tech podcast.

[David Roth]

Really good.

[Ed Zitron]

And it's just Donald Trump's like, yeah, this is very true. Like, it's just like, so bad.

[Pablo Torre]

It's like, I love that he wears black tie.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah.

[David Roth]

Does he?

[Pablo Torre]

He wears like, he always wears, like, a black suit with a black tie and a white starch shirt.

[David Roth]

So cool.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah.

[David Roth]

Like the cater waiter swag. That's a really solid, real party down aspect.

[Ed Zitron]

It looks like a guy, the John.

[David Roth]

Wick, working a wedding.

[Ed Zitron]

I don't. But with stuff like that, I'm just insulted by the whole Lex Fritman thing. He's so bad.

[David Roth]

But aren't those podcasts also, like, six hours long?

[Ed Zitron]

They're so long. He did one with Sam Altman for like four hours. He could have said anything. I can't watch it. I try to. My brain stops. My brain just like shuts down. It's like I've been in a car accident.

[David Roth]

That's an awfully long time to be spending with any two dudes, let alone if one of them is him on.

[Ed Zitron]

And he's just like, yeah, you know data centers, well, they'll build themselves now. And it's like, wow, what is data? How do you compute me up?

[David Roth]

I wish. I hope this is as long as the Irishman.

[Ed Zitron]

No, I want.

[David Roth]

I want all of that.

[Ed Zitron]

I want to be on Lex Rippman so bad. I should just be clear. I'm going to read him riddles like it's going to be amazing.

[Unknown (Anabe Ad Speaker)]

This July 4th celebrate freedom from spills, stains and overpriced furniture with Annabe, the only machine washable sofa inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly pricing. Sofas start at just $699, making it the perfect time to upgrade your style space. Annabe's Pet Friendly stain resistant and interchangeable slipcovers are made with high performance fabric that's built for real life. You'll love the cloud like comfort of hypoallergenic high resilience foam that never needs fluffing and a durable steel frame that stands the test of time with modular pieces you can rearrange anytime. It's a sofa that adapts to your Life. Now through July 4th, get up to 60% off site [e-mail] Every order comes with a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping, no restocking fees. Every penny back. Declare independence from dirty outdated furniture. Shop [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Unknown (iHeart Ad Speaker)]

Run a business and not thinking about podcasting? Think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ad supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined, so whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only iHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business? Think iHeart streaming radio and podcasting. Call 844-844 iHeart to get started. That's 844-844, iHeart.

[Lex Borrero]

Welcome to the youe versus you podcast. I'm Lex Borrero and every week we sit down with some of the biggest names in entertainment to talk about the real stuff, the struggles, the doubts, and the breakthroughs that made them who they are. We go deep, exploring childhood trauma, family, overcoming loss, and the moments that shape their journey. These honest conversations are meant to Take the cape off our heroes with the hope that their humanity inspires you to become a better you and therefore set you free to live the life of your dreams. Here's a sneak peek.

[David Roth]

I'm trained to go compete. I'm trained to be, like, harder. But sometimes that mentality stops you from stopping and smelling the flowers in your own garden.

[Lex Borrero]

Is it wrong to want more?

[David Roth]

We migrated.

[Lex Borrero]

Our family migrated here.

[David Roth]

I'm like second generation.

[Lex Borrero]

Listen to you versus you as part of Michael Tuda Podcast network. Available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Ed Zitron]

Jan Marsalek was a model of German corporate success.

[David Roth]

It seemed so damn simple for him.

[Ed Zitron]

Also, it turned out a fraudster. Where does the money come from? That was something that I always was questioning myself. But what if I told you that was the least interesting thing about him? His secret office was less than 500 meters down the road.

[Pablo Torre]

I often ask myself now, did I.

[David Roth]

Know the true Jan at all?

[Ed Zitron]

Certain things in my life since then have gone terribly wrong.

[David Roth]

I don't know if they followed me to my home. It looks like the ingredients of a really grand spy story, because this ties together the Cold War with the new one.

[Ed Zitron]

Listen to Hot Agent of chaos on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. But you look at, like, Theo Von or Joe Rogan and you see their production. Theo Vonn is a good interviewer. He's got. Despite his insane name, he has, like, an insanely long name. Do you know his name?

[Pablo Torre]

His real name?

[Ed Zitron]

His real name?

[Pablo Torre]

No.

[Ed Zitron]

Oh, my Christ, I am so happy to be the person.

[David Roth]

Dutch Ish.

[Pablo Torre]

It is like, it is Theophilus.

[David Roth]

No, this is Von something or other, like Burlingame or whatever comes after it.

[Ed Zitron]

Theo Von's real name is Theodore Kapitani Von Kurnatowski iii.

[David Roth]

That's right.

[Ed Zitron]

One of the greatest names of all time. And his whole thing's been like, yeah, damn.

[David Roth]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

I feel like this is a good decision by Theo Van to go by Theo Van, given the proceeding.

[David Roth]

Yeah, Kurtowski.

[Ed Zitron]

It'd be so much funnier if he used this whole name, though, and kept doing the like, yeah, my name's Kernitowski.

[David Roth]

But his third of my name.

[Ed Zitron]

But you don't get the sense from Rogan or Kurnatowski that they're condescending or that. But they have, like, maybe they are in some way to, like, people of color. I don't know. But they have a genuine, like, oh, I want to be here. I'm Interested. I'm interested in getting good material out of you. And it's kind of like calm and effortless and it's like, maybe there is effort behind it, but it's just, it feels like a lot of that is just genuinely missing from media. It's something you both do in podcasts, and you obviously do way more podcasts. Pablo as well. But it's just like, let's get the, let's get some interesting. Let's have a good conversation. Because I don't know, several people who know each other discussing something interesting might have a good, interesting conversation like you could listen to on your, on your phone in a podcast. It's not that hard.

[David Roth]

What's hard about it, though? I'll tell you what I found hard about it. And it's different.

[Ed Zitron]

I don't mean it's not that hard.

[David Roth]

No, it isn't that hard. I mean, it's not hard relative to, like, we know that people like it, you know, and so, like, doing it well is a skill that you can learn. And I. We've enjoyed when Pablo's come on the Defector podcast distraction. Like, it's like getting to shoot around with, like, LeBron. Like, you're just, you've done a lot of this. You're really good at talking. You have less verbal junk than I do. Like, it's fun.

[Pablo Torre]

Verbal junk baller.

[David Roth]

Absolutely. But beyond that, I think that. So that is, like, it's a learnable skill to be able to do. The challenge for me, though, is I want to be as good at talking or as knowledgeable as whoever is on. And for the most part, I'm not. And that's not a criticism of me. It just means that, like, you have to be willing to ask simpleton type questions.

[Ed Zitron]

I actually want to put this in a more empathetic sense. Same with the listeners, right. They're logging on to hear you tell them something. And maybe you. Pablo telling you something that you don't know and you learning. Yeah, maybe they too will learn. It's something Robert and Sophie early on said. It's just like, if you don't know something, just ask every fucking time.

[David Roth]

Yeah, you have to, because there will.

[Pablo Torre]

Be a listener who's like, I believe it's funny to mention, like, LeBron, because oftentimes I have to do the exercise in my mind of, like, do I need to explain who LeBron is to people? Yeah, like, truly, like, I, I presume that the audience that comes to my show does not know anything about anything.

[Ed Zitron]

And LeBron James is a basketball player, if you don't know it, one of the best.

[David Roth]

One of the biggest basketball men we've got.

[Ed Zitron]

He's. He's really good.

[David Roth]

Prominent.

[Pablo Torre]

He's very. Well, he's very strong.

[Ed Zitron]

Space Jam 2. Not a good movie. Sorry.

[Pablo Torre]

But. But what I would say about. About. Like. What about like meeting the listener wherever they are. It is to me, it is about the exercise of, can I make someone who doesn't give a single shit about this care about this story? And so we do stories about fencing, corruption. We'll do stories. I mean, I could waste your time mentioning all of the obscure things that I have, I think, conned people into listening to.

[Ed Zitron]

I mean, the Hank Azaria interview was fascinating and that was like the furthest from what you do because. And he wasn't telling just stories about like the Simpsons stuff. Like, it was like.

[Pablo Torre]

He was great. And we tried to. The joke of my show is that we're a technically sports show, which means that like somewhere like an Easter egg, you'll see a sports reference. I don't think anybody cares enough to check the box, but I check the box. And Roth, by the way, just the thing, the compliment I want to pay him is that when it comes to thinking about politics in a way that speaks so fluently the languages of hyper intelligence and utter stupidity, no one is better at David Roth and diagnosing that in Donald Trump.

[David Roth]

That's nice.

[Pablo Torre]

Like, you need to be someone who is so brilliant that they're also a mora. And truly it's being fluent at both sort of registers.

[Ed Zitron]

And one of my favorite ones is like my good friend Beetlejuice.

[David Roth]

Yeah. There's a lot of. Because the idea of thinking about who you could convince him is a real guy and a fan of his.

[Ed Zitron]

He's just standing front of a Candyman.

[David Roth]

Yep.

[Ed Zitron]

Candy.

[David Roth]

You know, I knew, all right. We were friends. We were great friends, but we're not friends anymore.

[Ed Zitron]

Can't die.

[David Roth]

Yep. Against Peteer, the bit that I. The dumb question thing, the version of it that I sort of like, whatever this is like positive self talk that I'm saying into a microphone.

[Ed Zitron]

Go for it.

[David Roth]

We had Bob Mould on Bob Mould, who's Cardoo and Sugar. Like iconic punk rock musician, man.

[Pablo Torre]

And also very strong.

[David Roth]

Yes. And a Sweden. Yeah. Also had worked in wrestling. Just like one of the most interesting guys in the world as a writer, not as a performer. But he, you know, those bands mean a great deal to me. He is my co host, Drew McGarry's favorite musician. And I gotta listen to the question that I asked him basically after, you know, he had a new album out, listen to it and I don't know enough about it helped that it was about music which is basically just a foreign language to me. So I can't be like, when you made this decision, your fret work on the bridge here. Like I can't, you know, like I even saying it here in a friendly space.

[Ed Zitron]

Not either.

[David Roth]

I had to do. Not I had to do the dumb guy voice to put it over. But I asked him like, is it fun to write a song? Like is it, is it cool to do that? And I think I had to get past the anxiety of like asking someone I respect a question that is basically like something a 7 year old would have asked. And yet like we got a really good answer. And also I wanted to know, you know, like it's better to admit what you don't know and ask the seven year old question than it is to try to like bluff and do the expertise thing along with someone who's a real expert.

[Ed Zitron]

And I have, I have this theory that I will never be able to prove, which is I think most people forget stuff all the time. Like you will be listening to something and be like, who's LeBron James? Go fuck.

[Unknown (Anabe Ad Speaker)]

Golf.

[Ed Zitron]

No. Or like who? And like you will forget all terms. Like on the show, I onerous theme. People say you repeat yourself. I repeat myself. Like defining what generative AI is probabilistic. What does that mean, Doug? Because sometimes you will be listening to an hour and a half of me talking. You might fucking forget something. And also being empathetic. Look, I don't know with like when I'm hanging out with my friends, people don't know shit all the time. Part of the fun thing of being alive is helping people know stuff and having shared experiences. And I love that question of what like I want to ask, and this is for somewhat meaner reasons, my dream question to ask any tech executive is, are you happy? I want to ask Sundar Pichai, are you happy? Because it's a hell of a question. Because you want to say yes, but you know, I've got a follow up. What makes you happy? And you know they don't have shit.

[David Roth]

Well, for him it's like all the stuff. He's the guy that gave the interview where he's like all day I'm just fucking ass asking questions of our AI. I talked to Gemini all day long.

[Ed Zitron]

That's such an adela of Microsoft.

[David Roth]

No, no, that's what it was?

[Ed Zitron]

No, but similar gargoyle like.

[David Roth]

Yeah, but it's just profiling on my part. Wrong. Remove it from the podcast.

[Ed Zitron]

Profiling of like extremely rich asshole ruining products. I mean, like, welcome to the show.

[David Roth]

But there was something, I think the idea of like, what is any of this for? Is a good question to ask yourself.

[Pablo Torre]

To bring it back to Rogan for a second though. It also feels like anyone whose industry is seeing rates of ketamine usage decrease so dramatically cannot possibly.

[David Roth]

What does that indicate to you?

[Pablo Torre]

It just feels like there is a fundamental searching for something like fulfillment and a happiness.

[Ed Zitron]

We're lonely.

[Pablo Torre]

And by the way, everyone is like.

[Ed Zitron]

Men, women, everyone is more disconnected.

[Pablo Torre]

And I find that in sports, of course, if there's any lesson to learn from Bill Belichick and Michael Jordan and Tom Brady and every greatest of all time in any category you want to, it is that they won everything and are miserable.

[Ed Zitron]

Yes, completely.

[Pablo Torre]

And so how do you fill the void that you thought the trophies, the money, the generative AI was going to fill? You search for other things like the Silicon Valley thing. Again, I'm not. By the way. Something I'm frustrated by is just how now uncool Joe Rogan made psychedelics. And maybe I'm the least cool person to think of it in those terms. The point being, though, that there is something that is missing that people are trying to find and I think, are you happy? I presume that all of them are actually quite un.

[Ed Zitron]

And I would be. This would be a hostile interview technique that they will never. Because one of my favorite things is that I grew up thinking I was stupid. I thought I was stupid until like two years ago. I'm deadly fucking serious. It's an incredible technique, though.

[David Roth]

No amount of. You have like a real nice house. Yeah. Like there you. There was no point where you were like, damn, accidents keep happening.

[Ed Zitron]

No, no, it's luck.

[David Roth]

All right.

[Pablo Torre]

Like I. I like how the thing where you have the accent that makes you sound smart didn't work on you.

[Ed Zitron]

As the guy did not work on.

[David Roth]

But it means though it's worked on me from the very beginning. I was like, damn, this guy really knows his Raiders football. How did he learn so much?

[Ed Zitron]

Oh, God, I'm gonna get emails about the Raiders. Gino looks good, I think Brock anyway. But it means that I've never walked into a room being like, oh, I hope he doesn't think I'm stupid. Which is actually useful for PR business as well. But in any given interview, I feel like interviewers. Neilai Patel will go in there and be like, I'm gonna ask the best fucking questions in the world. Not the most useful, not the most interesting, but the ones that make them sound good and get the biggest, most self ingratiating thing done. And I understand why, but it's. You have access to someone that people don't have access to. Can you at least get something new? Can you at least not line them up with the buffet of options? I don't know if you get it as much in sports, just because if someone lies about being good at sports and then goes and plays poorly, you can notice that.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, but sports is full of. We did an episode actually that's kind of related to this and it's about kind of the tyranny of jargon in sports and how lots of people are trying to perform the vocabulary of a coach, which is kind of like.

[David Roth]

Or write like a scout.

[Ed Zitron]

What is the vocabulary of a coach or a scout?

[David Roth]

So there's a lot of phrases. Do you have like a couple of like, brown note, like nightmare phrases? The one for me is impact winning. That's an NBA one.

[Ed Zitron]

What does that mean?

[David Roth]

It means it's a good basketball player. It's the most annoying way to say that this is a healthy player associated. No, it's not. It's not like, that's like an.

[Pablo Torre]

It's almost like an idiomatic, just sort of like.

[Ed Zitron]

So they just say someone's an impact.

[Pablo Torre]

Quest, but there's also just like the fighter pilot kind of like call sign stuff where it's like. Yeah. Spider2y banana.

[David Roth]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a lot of.

[Ed Zitron]

What's an example within sport. Oh, oh, sorry. Just within the game.

[Pablo Torre]

So Spider2y Banana is. This is a play call that I will not even begin to summarize.

[Ed Zitron]

Oh, I thought. I thought you were literally talking about planes.

[David Roth]

No.

[Pablo Torre]

Spider 2.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah. I thought you were doing like a plane thing.

[David Roth]

It is a John Gruden play. I know. A listener of the pod, friend of Anthony, friend of the pod, but. And I don't even know, is Spiderman apocryphal or is it.

[Pablo Torre]

It's real. No, no, no.

[David Roth]

It was me and Deuce.

[Pablo Torre]

Ed knows this because Ed's been to Gruden's quarterback boot camp.

[David Roth]

You were doing squats with Deuce Gruden.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, Jared Lorenzen coached me. It didn't go well.

[Pablo Torre]

Rip.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, I believe so. Yeah.

[David Roth]

Rip the legend.

[Pablo Torre]

But there is. There's all this vocabulary that sort of signals that you have the fluency of a Of a.

[David Roth]

Of. Of.

[Pablo Torre]

Of a. Of a code that is so indecipherable to the outside person that it becomes a point of pride. And so in sports, there's just a lot of peacocking around that language.

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

A lot of, like, other. You know, they're running Cover 3 there, but they're doing a stunt. The A gap, the B, just, like, stuff that's meant to exclude.

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

And so when you say, like, a person who asks a question that is intended to signal their knowledge as opposed to help the listener understand anything, I think of the ways in which people are cosplaying, coaching all of the time. And also it's kind of why, as much as we have already been crapping all over Joe Rogan and Theo Vaughn, something that I do appreciate, generally speaking, I've not listened to all their episodes, but what they do tend to do is not try and perform over intelligence.

[Ed Zitron]

And the thing is, you can say, like, I've seen some Theo von. I've seen some Joe Rogan. They fucking host white supremacists in the open. It fucking sucks. You can still look at the format and learn. And I think people have trouble separating those things because it really comes down to their questions are simple, and then they get like, Jordan Petersburg. Have you seen the Nightmare Men?

[David Roth]

Yeah.

[Ed Zitron]

Like, you just some insane shit. And then he says nothing to that because J. Rogan's like, like, yeah, yeah, I knew a guy like that.

[David Roth]

That happened to my buddy Eric. Yeah, yeah, there is that sense. I think also there's a difference in sports discourse where there's everything that you said about, like, the sort of ostentatious performance of expertise and, like, inside y. Everybody wants to be plugged in.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah.

[David Roth]

It has impacted in some ways, like, the language. In fact, I just used impact as a verb. So it's clearly made something on.

[Ed Zitron]

Made an impact.

[David Roth]

Made an impact on, like, a concussive.

[Ed Zitron]

But you used it correctly.

[David Roth]

Yes, I did. Yes, I did. But the way that that's, like, worked out, I think that there's the way that people, like Scoop Smith type guys, you're like Sham Strania dudes. Like, they write not in, like, a syntax that is observable outside of text messages from agents to guys like him, that there's something very, like, artificial about it.

[Ed Zitron]

Just for the listeners. Is a guy who mostly says a guy has been traded.

[David Roth]

He says it first.

[Pablo Torre]

Exactly. He is five seconds ahead of the actual public.

[Ed Zitron]

He also was the one that scooped Donald Trump getting Covid.

[Pablo Torre]

I hate that.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah. And what sucks is I found out through I was speaking to someone at the time for some reason I can't disclose. And they showed me a clip from the barstool show the Yak when it happened.

[Unknown (Anabe Ad Speaker)]

Oh, wow.

[Ed Zitron]

And when they showed this guy on there, Stephen Che, and it's just like the worst 10 minutes of just like, a guy who made basically was like, yeah, I think Shams would break World War Three. And just these guys like, wanting him to be wrong. And they just hate every, like, everyone kind of miserable.

[David Roth]

Yeah.

[Ed Zitron]

Like, anyway, so Shams just breaks news. That's his only.

[David Roth]

He breaks news and that is like, there's a guy that does it for the NFL. There's a guy they're trying to make Jeff Passon, who's like an ace feature writer. They're trying to make him that guy for baseball.

[Pablo Torre]

The incentives are to be a newsbreaker, because you are. I mean, by the way, when Woj was doing this, Adrian Mojnorowski, who I should disclose is a person who now works for Saint Bonaventures University General, he's the gm, but was making, you know, millions upon millions of dollars being the newsbreaker, basically. Like the human. Yeah, like, scoop machine just fielding texts 24.

[David Roth]

7.

[Pablo Torre]

There was just a bit. I don't know if you remember this, but during the NBA draft one year when Woj, I think, was at espn, so he was working for the broadcaster of the draft, but trying to scoop the draft.

[David Roth]

I know what you're talking about.

[Pablo Torre]

By five seconds ahead. And so in order to get through the. To thread the needle, he ended up just not saying the Bulls are about to take Jimmy Butler or whatever this is, you know, God retconning, we're dating or something. But it's basically like the Bulls are targeting. The Phoenix Suns are circling.

[David Roth]

He kept coming up with new phrasing, and it's hard. There's like 32 picks. So he'd be like, I'm hearing that the Bulls are ensorceled by Wendell Carter Jr. At this spot, which is just.

[Ed Zitron]

I mean, every single better offline episode says, walks you through. Because I cannot fucking think of another way to say it. And I refuse. So I get Mr.

[David Roth]

But you can see all of what we're describing here. These are not. These are great paying jobs, and they do tend to select for people who are, like, metabolically capable of responding to text messages for 20 hours a day. But although when Woj.

[Ed Zitron]

That's me.

[David Roth]

When Woj left the job, he was basically like, this sucks. I hate it. Again, I'm having A hard time.

[Pablo Torre]

He was like, I'm unhappy.

[David Roth]

Yeah. Was basically his press release and like, whatever. The opposite of Michael Jordan. I'm back. He's just like, nope, I'm gone. That's the whole. The whole thing. But that is a function of all of this. But I think the bit that is kind of missing from it, and you see it when a podcast works, or if you're reading a story that's written by somebody who is given the space and the time to write something that they like, which is increasingly rare. All this shit is fun. Everybody's here because it's fun. No one is here because it is important that, like, especially with sports, there are aspects of it that you can use as sort of like a way into seeing things about the broader culture that are important. But none of this is, like, mandatory.

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[David Roth]

You know, and so it's a game. And so to the extent that you can talk about it in a way that is fun and that is not either, like, actionable gambling intelligence or part of some, like, endless barbershop set to that, where everybody's arguing about who's now or somebody's legacy or whatever. Legacy, yeah. That's one of the best topics to play fight about with the fellas.

[Ed Zitron]

But the thing is, this is something missing from the tech industry, because most people in tech, when you talk to them, don't seem to want to talk about anything. You've got this growth of who is it? I really should know this one. Ryan something. There's a former player who has a really good podcast with a bunch of players.

[Pablo Torre]

Ryan Clark.

[Ed Zitron]

Yes, Ryan Clark. And he just sits around and he has very serious conversations, sometimes quite jokey ones, with other people that have played games of sports for money. And that's why it's interesting, because you're hearing their experiences and it's kind of rough and ready, probably a little bit cleaned up more than we know, I imagine, in some of the. I don't know in his case, but I imagine there are more harsh guys.

[David Roth]

He's got, like, a real job to avoid losing. But I do think that there's. What you're talking about, though, is that, like, people want something authentic, and the.

[Ed Zitron]

Tech industry constantly tries to create it, but it always ends up being a venture capitalist and three of their investments being like, you know, I was using generative AI AI the other day, and it just changed my life how I. We're going to Ad Break, and it's just like, these fucking people piss me off. Because tech is so universal. Whether or not you consider yourself technical. Kind of the same way with the sport. It's like baseball. One of my favorite. Casey Kagawa, friend of the show, once said it to me, it's like, it's still a child's game. It's still the same game. Aaron Judge plays baseball a lot better than a kid playing Little League, but he's still hitting a fucking ball. And there is something universal about that. I think tech's getting there. Perhaps we're not there quite. I think most people are not accepting it yet. But the fact is, I think there is something deeply personal about tech that no one's fucking touching in this way. And they should, because it's interesting.

[David Roth]

Yeah. This is one of the big Ed points to me, one of the ones that I think, like, you were first to and should be repeating as often as possible, which is that basically everybody. That at some point, everybody liked all this stuff.

[Unknown (Oracle Ad Speaker)]

Yeah.

[David Roth]

And now they don't.

[Ed Zitron]

And they still like. They like. No, they like the stuff. They hate the tech industry and that.

[David Roth]

I think that, like. And so that, you know, you create this demand for people that they, you know, it's cool to be able to, like, read anything as it happens. Like, it will make you insane, but it's not bad. Like, it's like, kind of gratifying, actually. Yes. And yet, like, that you take that interest and then you use that to, like, sort of leverage ways to make more and more money off of it and dilute the experience more and more. And I think that. That, you know, when someone is doing that to you for information that you need to understand the world around you. I think that that is criminal. When someone is doing that to you for sports stuff, I just think it's rude. I just think it's like a dick move, basically.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, I also think, big picture, that every. I mean, this is gonna sound profoundly unprofound, but, like, everything is tech.

[Ed Zitron]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Like sports, it's impossible to talk about. Everything we've basically talked about so far has been filtered through the lens of tech in ways that it's different now than it used to be in ways that these characters are people that we now know in a dimensionality that didn't previously exist because Jordan Hudson posted an Instagram thing of a philosophy textbook that was autographed by Bill Belichick the day that they met when she was, turns out 19 years old.

[David Roth]

It's not important.

[Pablo Torre]

Look again.

[David Roth]

It's a little bit important, actually.

[Pablo Torre]

You know my disclosures.

[David Roth]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

You know, my disclosures.

[David Roth]

Sometimes when you're Looking at Jordan Hudson's Instagram account, it's just for work.

[Pablo Torre]

It's just because I'm a journalist. But look, my point being that it's. When it comes to like media, the future of media, it's just impossible to disentangle every conversation I ever have from the fact that we are working in some direct or stochastic way for tech companies.

[Ed Zitron]

You even mentioned the sun God of the algorithm.

[Pablo Torre]

It's just impossible to not think about standard of success through the lens of what a tech company has engineered.

[Ed Zitron]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

And so it's, it's. Yeah, it's omnipresent.

[David Roth]

Yeah. But the challenge with this too, this is for Defector, which is more of a. It's a print product. Yeah. You know, like it's a website that people subscribe to and read and we have a podcast and we do videos every now and then. But most of what we do is writing that to Pablo's point, about the, the tech industry, this has been like the challenge for us. I think, like we've got. Got a steady loyal subscriber base. We're good. It's a good business. How you direct people to your posts is not just. I mean, it's the challenge that we're talking about the most. But any place that is print as these sort of the tech mediated spaces through which people used to discover this as they either dry up or actively turn against their users. That idea of like, I guess discoverability is.

[Pablo Torre]

I say that word all of the time and I hate myself every time.

[David Roth]

I mean, it feels bad, bad because it's like it's a fake, ugly world.

[Pablo Torre]

It feels like impact.

[David Roth]

Yes, it does feel, it has that.

[Ed Zitron]

But it kind of goes back to the thing I was saying about the money side. It's like, I don't know. This show was quite successful in part because iheartradio put it on the fucking. Not the actual show, but they put a bunch of advertising behind it, which is awesome. I'm glad, really glad they did it. But it's like a big part. What a surprise. A show has trouble finding new listeners when they have no discovery and just we are.

[Pablo Torre]

We every look obvious sort of statements of fact. It is harder to find anything now because all of us are fragmented, siloed, not consuming the same things. Have personalized feeds again explained by the tech industry.

[Ed Zitron]

Personalized by their standards.

[Pablo Torre]

Absolutely. And so true. And some platforms are now like disincentivizing hyperlinks to places. I mean literally, like this is, this is why it's so hard to get discovered. And so if the standard for just success becomes. Do you know that this exists? The game becomes. I mean, again, to return to another sort of like axiom, it becomes an attention game because that counts as something in a meaningful way. And so to have, in Defector's case, a subscription driven site. And by the way, everything now wants to be a subscription. So kudos to.

[David Roth]

Yeah, we were early.

[Pablo Torre]

Kudos to journalism. To yellow.

[Ed Zitron]

Just start a premium feed on. Where's your AT app? Please, please subscribe. I need money. Like also, it cost me thousands a year to do.

[David Roth]

That's nice. What are you gonna put on the premium?

[Ed Zitron]

I do a. I do a Friday. Friday news.

[David Roth]

You said nudes.

[Ed Zitron]

Nudes, yes.

[David Roth]

I take artistic nudes.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, you have to get. All right, the mic magnifying glass tool. Anyway, no, it's another Friday news. N, E, W, S. It's why I can't say the word porn either. A P, A W, N. Because like, oh, you're watching porn stars hat. And that's like, yeah, the show with Rick.

[David Roth]

Rick. Oh, yeah.

[Ed Zitron]

Best I can do for you. I know it work. I'm sorry. It's just even doing that felt dirty. But I was kind of like, yeah, this cost me thousands of dollars a year. Like, is that true?

[Pablo Torre]

I'm contemplating the same thing. What are we gonna put behind our premium sort of paywall?

[Ed Zitron]

And it's just the only advantage I think I really have is that I can write so much so fast and I'm pretty good at the writing, but I can just fucking.

[David Roth]

Yeah. Today was like your, like average newsletter is my monthly output in terms of.

[Ed Zitron]

Word count, but I don't post it at 4:55pm on a Friday.

[David Roth]

Well, that's. That's a failure on your part because that is editorial best practice.

[Pablo Torre]

That's.

[Ed Zitron]

That's what everyone loves and what they sign up for. But it's. It's fucked. But I also think it may end up being something good because people are being way more direct with what they actually want. I also think this is something where legacy media really fucks up because. Okay, you've got the Daily. Actually I want to tell a really fucked up story. So I heart Media awards, right? Which I did not win to Kevin Roose and occasionally very unfair. When they did an announcement of the different. Someone was in the category. It was. They were saying, okay, we've got this podcast and they went the Daily with Michael Barbara. And it's like. And now I went outside and then there was a politician there and I thought, does he do politics? And someone goes, we love you, Michael.

[David Roth]

That's nice.

[Ed Zitron]

I want that person found. I want that person jail. No. Who is the Michael Barbaro superfan? Like, like the Japanese idols, but for Michael Barbour.

[David Roth]

I think if you did a live recording of the Daily, you would have to do it at like the forum at Madison Squad.

[Ed Zitron]

So sad.

[David Roth]

Yeah, it's tough, man. This is a real hard thing to get your head around. But this is like, but this is.

[Ed Zitron]

The thing with these.

[David Roth]

It's at Budokan. He's gonna, he's gonna do a live episode.

[Ed Zitron]

I'm opening up the fucking pit at.

[David Roth]

The Daily Shout about how the subway is too scary now. That's gonna be the episode that they're gonna perform.

[Ed Zitron]

That's when I'm hitting with the wheelbarrows. That's when I'm just fucking spinning.

[Unknown (Anabe Ad Speaker)]

This July 4th, celebrate freedom from spills, stains and overpriced furniture with Annabe, the only machine washable sofa inside and out. Where designer quality meets budget friendly pricing. Sofas start at just $699, making it the perfect time to upgrade your space. Annabe's pet friendly stain resistant and interchangeable slipcovers are made with high performance fabric that's built for real life. You'll love the cloud like comfort of hypoallergenic, high resilience foam that never needs fluffing and a durable steel frame that stands the test of time with modular pieces you can rearrange anytime. It's a sofa that adapts to your Life. Now through July 4th, get up to 60% off site [e-mail] Every order comes with a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping, no restocking fees. Every penny back. Declare independence from dirty outdated furniture. Shop [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions.

[Unknown (iHeart Ad Speaker)]

Run a business and not thinking about podcasting? Think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ad supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only Iheart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business? Think Iheart streaming radio and podcast. Call 844-844-IHEART to get started. That's 844-844-iHEART.

[Lex Borrero]

Welcome to the youe versus you podcast. I'm Lex Borrero. And every week we sit down with some of the biggest names in entertainment to talk about the real stuff, the struggles, the doubts, and the breakthroughs that made them who they are. We go deep, exploring childhood trauma, family overcoming loss, and the moments that shape their journey. These honest conversations are meant to take the cape off our hands. Heroes with the hope that their humanity inspires you to become a better you and therefore set you free to live the life of your dreams. Here's a sneak peek.

[David Roth]

I'm trained to go compete. I'm trained to be, like, harder. But sometimes that mentality stops you from stopping and smelling the flowers in your own garden.

[Lex Borrero]

Is it wrong to want more?

[David Roth]

We migrated.

[Lex Borrero]

Our family migrated here.

[David Roth]

I'm like second generation.

[Lex Borrero]

Listen to youo vs yous as part of Michael Tuda Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ed Zitron]

Jan Marsalek was a model of German corporate success.

[Pablo Torre]

It seemed so damn simple for him.

[Ed Zitron]

Also, it turned out a fraudster. Where does the money come from?

[David Roth]

That was something that I always was questioning myself.

[Ed Zitron]

But what if I told you that was the least interesting thing about him? His secret office was less than 500 meters down the road.

[Pablo Torre]

I often ask myself now, did I.

[David Roth]

Know the true Rian at all?

[Ed Zitron]

Certain things in my life since then have gone terribly wrong.

[David Roth]

I don't know if they followed me to my home. It looks like the ingredients of a really grand spy story, because this ties together the cold or with the new one.

[Ed Zitron]

Listen to Hot Agent of chaos on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And the legacy media people are pissing it away because they have the discovery, discoverability part done already. The New York Times could do so much interesting shit, but they're so afraid of this vague objectivity thing. I know, Pablo, you have to do your, like, disclosures and shit, but they're just like, nah, instead of doing the disclosures, we'll just do a really boring and shitty job. What if it was just really dull? And so they already have the hard part done and they choose not to do anything extra because they're like, oh, well, people want this. Have you fucking tried?

[David Roth]

Yeah.

[Ed Zitron]

Have you tried even once?

[David Roth]

I'll say this with sports too, that this is an advantage that we have in this space over a place like the Times. I mean, the Times has got to report on things that are not fun. Like, so a little bit of whimsy. And anytime the Times attempts whimsy, there's this sort of like dog walking on its hind legs thing where you're like, we shouldn't be doing that. Like, that doesn't.

[Ed Zitron]

You don't experience sports.

[David Roth]

But also you're, like, impressed. You're like, wow, I didn't know you could do that. Like, please stop. Like, the thing with sports that does sort of like move you in a direction where, like, you could do more of that type of stuff. Like, you don't need to talk about sports in any particular way. The challenge for, you know, I think for sports talk radio, which is something that I can't imagine an audience that overlaps less with the audience of this podcast than the people that listen to wfan. But there are like, there's guys whose job it is to just go sit in a studio for five hours every day. And like, every day, like, this is a weekly thing. And just somebody calls in and they're like, I don't think the islanders should do that. And then the guy's like, you're wrong. And that goes on for an extended period of time. That is like, it's a grim way of doing it, but it also is like, it's not. There's very little in the ET space where you see people, like, sort of trying to do something different. There are other ways of doing it. How it all sort of defaulted to this, like, sourpuss play fighting shit is a mystery to me. Other than the fact that it's like if you had to sit and do something into a microphone for five hours a day, you'd probably come out of it pretty crusty too.

[Ed Zitron]

So I actually. The reason that I like doing the talking with the microphone thing is actually Penn State. I was on the lion fm. If you are a Lion FM listener who heard me on college radio, email me.

[David Roth]

You doing talk or playing music?

[Ed Zitron]

Both.

[David Roth]

Okay.

[Pablo Torre]

I was co hosting with Joe Paterno.

[David Roth]

He did the weekly call in show.

[Ed Zitron]

I didn't know who he was. I just thought he lived there.

[David Roth]

Elderly Italian man from the community.

[Ed Zitron]

No, I did crazy shit. I had like a band on this guy called Epileptic. Pete was Epileptic. He had his own eight string bass and they played like a video game music. People fucking loved it. You just have some fun with it. But talk radio is extremely interesting. It's extremely. When it's done well, I hope that this is kind of the format I'm going for here.

[David Roth]

Yeah, that was the idea in Vegas. I know, it's fun. I'd never really done that before.

[Ed Zitron]

And people. Because talk Radio is actually magical when done right, but the done right is having a host that sounds like they're just talking but has thoughts about everything and they've been thinking about it to ask questions in some way. Pablo, you do this excellently. And it's like, it pisses me off because it's like they don't want to try anything other than the exact standard. But I think the answer is it's the fucking algorithm. It's that they want to normalize and fit into what they think will go viral, baby.

[David Roth]

Which generally is stuff that makes you mad. Right. I mean, I feel like that's the idea of like, that's stuff that's already big.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, it's that or you already work for a big newspaper. It's already a big brand. Other than the top of the itunes podcast, I don't know what's going on. Every one is called like the smile hour with Dr. Janine Beneen. And it's like each episode is 60 minutes long. And it's like Dr. Janine Bean Bennett, how to smile more. I've brought smile expert Jesus Dafat and he will tell us all about smiling. And they have like 10 million like 5 star reviews. Like this podcast change and you listen to them and it sounds like. It sounds like what I imagine they'd listen to in the Soundgarden video of Black Hole sound.

[David Roth]

What's coming out of the radio when the lady's about to chop the fish.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

So I think my overarching theory of the future of media and everything is that we're all only fans now. Which is to say that. Which is to say that there's a bunch of stuff that's wildly popular. That's just not my kink. Now I can also access the hyper specific thing that is mine or create it and monetize it. But it's that thing of like, in an era in which scale of the level of the New York Times or any incumbent publication is now impossible to recreate for various reasons, including, by the way, like, to get back to Joe Rogan or Bill Simmons. Like the first mover advantage of like being one of the first podcasts cannot be replicated anymore. There's just too much competition and. And short of having. I'm trying to get the genealogy right. Short of having someone whose husband's sister dated Taylor Swift or something. Is this. No, I'm just like, there's certain ways to like, speedrun growth.

[Ed Zitron]

Oh yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Taylor Swift adjacent is Theo Vaughn was.

[Ed Zitron]

On Rogan and they all cross pollinated.

[Pablo Torre]

Joe Rogan cross pollination being another in general. Yeah, we're aspiring to smaller arenas, but we are also aspiring for the people in those arenas to give us money.

[Ed Zitron]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

And that only fans economy of like, hey, if I show you some ankle, will you pay me for my increasingly bold takes or reportage or. I cannot stress this enough, Bernie Sanders impressions. Yes, it turns out they will.

[David Roth]

Yeah. I mean that's the, the thing that. And I try to like, sort of count my blessings with this, with Defector, because, like it is. It's a good business. We're growing. And yet I think that the challenge with it, we're going to turn five in September as a website. And that more or less by website standards is middle age. And I don't think anybody. We all love it. We all love working with each other. It's not going to change. And yet there's a part of it where we don't all want to just get old and die with our readership either. We want to be able to do new stuff and we want to be able to hire more people and change sort of the perspective of the site over time. And all of that costs money, I think, just because we want to feel like we're growing and not repeating ourselves.

[Ed Zitron]

Why do you want to grow?

[Pablo Torre]

So I like the alternate slogan, democracy dies with us.

[David Roth]

Yes. Right. But that I feel like is the cultural moment that we're in. Not to get too depressing about it, but you can see this with like, this is the apex of the Trumpism. Like, he wants all of America buried with him like a pharaoh. This is not a culture that is built to last beyond his like last breath. Because what happens after that is none of his business. He doesn't care.

[Ed Zitron]

But I actually think it's grimmer than that. I think it's one step further and it's everywhere. It's the rot economy is the growth at all cost thing. It's. People don't know why they want to fucking grow. They just want to grow. Everything in our society tells us to grow. What do you want to do? I want to be a CEO. I want to, I want the biggest thing ever. It's not about, about the product. It's about the position.

[David Roth]

This is where I'd put the, the emphasis on like the difference for what, Like Defector does not want to become Fox.

[Ed Zitron]

But even then you, like, we don't.

[David Roth]

Want like to televise a bowl game.

[Ed Zitron]

But you feel the allure of growth still. And this is not a criticism is.

[David Roth]

Just to like, because we Want to have like new people and do new shit. The challenge with it too though is that like the ways in which you can make money there. And we've had new revenue streams and we're making more money. We have ads for people that aren't signed in. Like they see that now. We've got the podcast. Those have ads and you sell those.

[Pablo Torre]

Cell phones, those gold plated cell phones.

[Ed Zitron]

Oh my God.

[David Roth]

Which are very. Those are great. And we're looking forward to making those right here in the United States. We're going to make them.

[Ed Zitron]

See the Clifton, New Jersey cell phone.

[David Roth]

Oh yeah, there is one of those, right?

[Ed Zitron]

Smartless. One of the biggest comedy podcasts in the world, listeners has made a mvno. So a cell phone network that lives on top of T Mobile.

[Pablo Torre]

What is mvno?

[Ed Zitron]

I forget what it stands for. It basically means you can have a sub.

[David Roth]

Same thing as like you can Mint Mobile.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah. You can run your network. Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

A network, I think.

[David Roth]

Is Ryan Reynolds going to lead to the collapse of the telecommunications industry? Can that possibly be?

[Ed Zitron]

Thank you. Daniel, our producer, mobile virtual network operator. Oh, I knew that. Danil. Thank you. It's. But it's that really, there's a great slate piece on it as well. That was just really echoed. How fucking sad it was because these guys are like super rich already and super popular, but they needed a cell.

[David Roth]

Phone growing for the sake of just being like, there's more money out there to be made. Is. I think this is an area where like everybody at Defector wants to fucking blog. That's our job.

[Ed Zitron]

Exactly.

[David Roth]

That is what we want.

[Ed Zitron]

And that's why I fucking pay. Yeah.

[David Roth]

And I think that like. And it's why I feel happy in this work in a way that I haven't felt before. I worked at all different types of sites in the past with all different types of funders. I don't know what Vice was. I guess that's a Ponzi scheme. I worked for places that were owned by private equity. That wasn't great. I worked for places that were owned as part of some sort of like venture back to Temple, you know, at vox, basically whatever it was that VOX was trying to do, I was briefly a part of that. In all of those instances. Everybody that I worked with just wanted to do our work. Yeah. And yet you were subject to the. I mean not even just like the whims. Kind of like cheapens it. I mean it was whatever it was that they wanted to do was what you were going to wind up, you know, downstream. That would arrive as an avalanche when they rolled the snowball from the top of the mountain where they were. But the. The thing with all of that, I never felt safe in any of those jobs, including the ones where I organized one workplace at Vice. I worked at a very strong union workplace at Deadspin. In all of those instances, I mean, obviously it's much, much better to organize your workplace than not. And I advocate anybody that wants to do it should try to do it. But at some point, the people that you're working for don't want what you want. They don't care about what you do.

[Ed Zitron]

And they don't read it.

[David Roth]

And they don't read it. Which is extremely important that I think that like in any of those, there's this wish. And I remember this. I was talking to Megan Greenwell, who is my editor in chief at Deadspin. Brand new book, I think has a new book about private equity called Bad Company that is very good and I recommend it.

[Ed Zitron]

She's gonna come on the show at some point. Good to ask her. Megan, if you hear this, but we.

[David Roth]

Were talking about the experience of trying to convince the private equity conservation that had bought was Gizmodo Media. Now it is Geo Media and basically unrecognizable.

[Ed Zitron]

Fucking Spanfeller.

[David Roth]

Spanfeller. Jim Spanfeller. Bad guy.

[Ed Zitron]

Come on the show, man. I got some fucking questions.

[David Roth]

But he. Great head of hair, though. I hate to say it, but it's like. It's amazing. Yep, he's got a quiff. What are they called? Yeah. Yes. Anyway, he looks great. He's been getting by on his looks for years, though. But we were trying to go to them with the information that we had, which is like. Like we're making more money than we're spending. People read this. People comment on everything these blogs get passed around. It's this many millions of unique readers for stuff they just didn't give a shit. It wasn't a business they wanted to be in. And the difference with defector, and I hope that this is the case for you all at Metalark too, because it is as similar as something that is that much bigger and more popular can be. That there is like. Like you're doing the work that you want to do and you're doing it without somebody's hand in your pocket or trying to fucking ratatouille you around in editorial ways. And that is when you remove that interference from the equation. It feels as fun as it actually is, I think.

[Pablo Torre]

So to get back to the misery of Michael Jordan, and every tech executive and blogs that aren't run in the way that I think Roth is describing. I think that's all the time at work. Like, the point of getting the money is to do the job that you want to do. And it is not the other way around. It is not to contort and develop some sort of content dysmorphia such that you've convinced yourself that's fucking good, that, oh, this is what beauty is. Now it's like, no, trust your own. We got into this because we have a sense of taste around what we want to do and what's good and what's bad. The more that we can actually earnestly believe and act on that is the whole reason to try and to try and engage with the market in whatever way we're allowed to.

[Ed Zitron]

I just. What pisses me off is I'm pretty sure that if you just did everything we're discussing, it would be insanely profitable because no one's fucking trying. So just. If you just did it at the broadsheet types, I'm sure that there are people who are desperate to have Michael Barbaro, like, tell them that the subway statistics.

[David Roth]

Yeah, Many millions of people. No accounting for taste.

[Ed Zitron]

But what if instead of that it was someone entertaining? Do you think that they would get scared or do you think they'd be like, I'll give this a go?

[David Roth]

I think that there's. I think that a lot of that stuff could be better or it could be different. I think the more important to me is the idea that, like, you should be able to pick more widely what experience is. And if the, you know, the Times isn't going to offer you. They could, you know, but the Times isn't going to offer you. Like, here's a version of the Daily where the guy doesn't sound medicated, like. Or, you know, some of these things that are just a different energy. Maybe try this out, see if you like. Shouldn't be just one platform offering all of this stuff. But I do think that there's enough ways to enjoy things. And the difference with sports, I mean, there's ways to be a fan. Maybe you like to shout about legacy, or maybe you are somebody that likes to grind tape, whatever. You're all working off the same text. Everybody fundamentally understands what they're talking about. There's just a lot of different ways to talk about it. It should be a healthier ecosystem than it is for that reason, I think.

[Ed Zitron]

So this is dating me a bit. But there's a crazy thing they Already tried this with the tech media and it worked really well. There used to be like seven different tech columnists. You kind of used to have like Dwight Silverman over at the Houston Chronicle, I think, or Dallas Morning News. Forgive me, Dwight, you had like Hewarth Gray over at the Globe. You had Eric Benderoff over at the Tribune. You had all of these like David Polk, one of the most well known tech reporters. Steve. And every week and he would sometimes just be like, yeah, I tried a new E reader. It's sucked. Yeah, it's my first interaction with him actually, and it was like people didn't read David Poe. He was kind of like your weird uncle. And then had some stuff that happened which made you really potentially not like him. But nevertheless, there was a level of entertainment that came from these personal voices talking about something that was very personal to people that worked in the New York fucking Time in major broadsheets. I just think that they've got safer. But I also wonder if that's not me just being kind of. Or maybe they're just fucking lazy.

[David Roth]

Yeah, this is a.

[Ed Zitron]

This is an incurious as well.

[David Roth]

Another ed point that has been instructive to me. This kind of like the rot economy idea. And I've sort of. I mean, I. It's hard to not spiral when you think about this. But like, what are you gaining by like you are getting some small savings by eliminating the tech columnist from Houston Chronicle from your ledger. You're not paying a guy $90,000 a year or whatever it is is these.

[Ed Zitron]

Guys used to get paid shit, tons.

[David Roth]

Of money as well, which there is that.

[Ed Zitron]

No, but they used to get paid shit tons of money and they were on there for years.

[David Roth]

Yeah, presumably they were adding some sort of value. To me, this is the. The bit that I don't get is like when you drain a company and kill it and you get some money from it. The private equity model of basically like piling a bunch of debt onto something. You take from this company, what is valuable. You leave them with the debt. In a few years they go away. So you have all this money now that might otherwise have gone into that company. We can understand that that's bad and that it's unfair to a lot of people also. What do you do with that money? This is the bit that I've always sort of wondered about, like, what is Jim's. Is it you just like you book fucking chain smokers to play at the weekend?

[Ed Zitron]

I must be clear. The answer is nothing.

[David Roth]

So is that so it sits There on you have some like transparency into the scene of super wealthy.

[Ed Zitron]

It's nothing. It's absolutely fucking nothing. They sit on it.

[Pablo Torre]

So by the way, this is where again the metaphor sort of becomes the reality.

[David Roth]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

So sports is currently grappling with the influx of private equity. The leagues are now passing rules to allow shares of teams to be bought by private equity firms. And part of the looming sort of storm cloud here is the idea that actually as with content, as with grocery stores, as with any industry, there is a conflict between what that thing is meant to do and its actual standard of success and growth. Profit. Right. So the whole idea of like the part of sports that is seemingly elemental is here, our goal is to win.

[David Roth]

Yeah. Everybody's trying to win if when that breaks.

[Ed Zitron]

Except winning isn't always profitable.

[David Roth]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

And that breakage between winning and profit, that's where you are invited. A corruption that has been visited upon every other thing in American life that we've already outlined.

[David Roth]

Yeah. And this is, I mean true as a fan, but I think that anybody that participates in the culture in any way, like there's. You don't have to know what the Pittsburgh Pirates specifically are like to understand that, like this is a team that is owned by a billionaire that is part of a system that is created.

[Ed Zitron]

And to explain for the listeners who don't listen to sport, Pittsburgh Pirates are.

[David Roth]

A big baseball team.

[Ed Zitron]

And also. But specifically the fact that they can be a bad team and make a shit ton of money.

[David Roth]

Yeah.

[Ed Zitron]

How so?

[David Roth]

And Pablo, you're welcome to jump in when I get anything wrong. Couple of things. Built a great ballpark with some public money. It is a great place to go and hang out and drink beers. Even if the team is bad, which the team reliably has been for more than a decade, the owner has a lot of money, enough money to buy a baseball team, which you need. This is another area where private equity and. And then I think eventually sovereign wealth is going to become.

[Pablo Torre]

Sovereign wealth is also being legislated in to buy shares Abu Dhabi or something.

[David Roth]

Yeah. And so that's like all international sport is all that. It just hasn't really happened in the.

[Pablo Torre]

United States yet, but it's coming.

[David Roth]

I mean a team like the Cowboys or the Giants, their valuation based on what the number is, it's like no person could buy it.

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[David Roth]

It's too many billions of dollars. Like whatever, like Elon or Jeff Bezos could buy it, but they're not going.

[Ed Zitron]

To because they Elon Musk to buy it. Like the Pirates this is.

[David Roth]

I considered a blog. Calling him out on that, like, being like, you coward. Buy the A's. Like, prove it. Prove how smart you are.

[Pablo Torre]

Maybe Elon was like, I'm a fan of the Eagles and the Steelers.

[David Roth]

And I was like, oh, classic. Like, it's like somehow like you took a Hillary Clinton line and you made it sound.

[Ed Zitron]

They call me the bus of tech.

[David Roth]

Anyway, so here's how the Pirates make it work. It is not expensive to run a major league baseball team if you don't pay anybody.

[Ed Zitron]

But you can not pay people and still make money.

[David Roth]

There is no salary floor. So the product that you put out there basically needs to be. Needs to be minimally competitive. Like, you can't have people like coming to your house and burning it down. But minimally competitive for the Pirates means losing 100 out of 162 games basically every year. The other way that you make money off of it, though, is like, there's TV deals that money is guaranteed. There's like, you know, parking, there's concessions. There's a million different ways to make a little bit of money at a time. And then the big thing that makes it work is that because this structure, that baseball has a revenue sharing system. So that basically this is money coming from the biggest socialism. It is socialism for rich guys, exclusively for rich guys. It is only within that system. So a team like the Yankees that makes all this money and plays in a big market and has this huge TV deal that the Pirates could never get because Pittsburgh is so much smaller than New York, they pay money into a system that is then reallocated to the Pirates. The idea being that this would create some sort of parody because that money is supposed to be used on either major league payroll or player development. Or there's ways that you can use it too, that are more responsible than others. Like the using it to pay a big league ballplayer is good. Using it to develop a player development program that teaches a raw high school kid that you drafted how to throw a pitch that he doesn't know how to throw. That is also extremely cost effective and works good. Teams do both. The Dodgers do both.

[Ed Zitron]

You don't have to do anything.

[David Roth]

Pirates do neither.

[Ed Zitron]

You don't have to do anything.

[David Roth]

Yes, you don't.

[Ed Zitron]

Because you can just sit there and the money comes in, right?

[Pablo Torre]

And think about it also, not merely. Cause I think there's. Yes, there's a philosophical approach that is overarching here. There's also just like the edge cases of like, you have a choice. You can re sign the player that will make your fans not merely happy, but feel on some level fulfilled as part of the allegedly civic trust here. Right. You got a star player that's about to ask for more money and everybody wants to keep him. And in fact it makes sense for you to keep them because your goal here is to win a title. Instead, what you will do is let him go because he is now too rich for your blood and you don't.

[Ed Zitron]

Need him to run your business.

[Pablo Torre]

You don't need him to make the margins exactly. That in fact you could still make without him.

[David Roth]

That's exactly the point. The margin thing is to me like, and this is the sort of short term thinking that you see attack a lot.

[Ed Zitron]

Which is why I brought it up.

[David Roth]

Now if you think of the business that you have as something that you're going to own for the rest of your life and then you're going to leave to your kids, now that's a little bit perverse. I don't think you should necessarily be able to do that. But if you're thinking of the business that way, the free agent that you resign is essential to the survival of your business because it shows people that are fans now that you care about them and you care about the team in the future. And when those people bring their kids to the games, they're going to be watching that player at the end of his career. They're going to. So that idea of like any of this stuff being built to last in any meaningful way, I think is gone.

[Ed Zitron]

And I think that. And it's everywhere. The reason I want you to go through that is I think listeners really understand the basics of like how you have tech companies that will do as little as possible to keep the service running to make the most amount of money. I think it's important for people to know this is everywhere. The rot economy is everywhere. It's insane how endemic it is to baseball though, that you could just run a shit team forever. Yeah, well, look at Google. Not to make it the whole thing about tech, but it's like it is very fucking depressing seeing how these people work. But I think that one thing that will work in tech that doesn't work as often in sports, but does a bit, is. Is attacking the owners.

[David Roth]

Yep.

[Ed Zitron]

Because Dick Monfort from the Rockies, who I email with occasionally, he has stopped responding to me.

[Pablo Torre]

Can't tell it.

[David Roth]

That's. Oh really? No, that's.

[Ed Zitron]

I think it was emailing him about JoJo.

[David Roth]

A lot of people email with Dick Monfor like If you email him, he'll email you back.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, he didn't email me back about JoJo's bizarre adventure, which I think was what broke him.

[David Roth]

Maybe a bridge too far. Okay, well, he might not be ready.

[Ed Zitron]

Delightful show, but you can't really humiliate someone like that. But the pressure on owners has changed things in the past. Like, they don't want to be despised by an entire town. I don't think enough people know who Sundar Pichai or Sam Altman is. And I think the more people who learn and mock them because they're so rich, they don't have anything other than the names. And unlike sports teams, they don't have anything cool.

[Pablo Torre]

So I think one difference with sports than tech is in fact the broad cultural popularity inherited over generations such that you are invested in this team in a way that you could never really be invested in the same way when it comes to even the device you use all of the time. Yeah, so I've talked to owners about this. NBA owners who are like, yeah, my day job as multi billionaire is like to obsess over the price of like polypropylene or some other, you know, material that I monetize. None. None of that is as resonant, is as much of a pain point in my life as the guy on the street who is actively booing me when he sees me.

[Ed Zitron]

But imagine if they fucking like them.

[David Roth]

Yeah.

[Ed Zitron]

Like a beloved owner. Like if the product was really good. People used to fucking love Google.

[David Roth]

So the Mets have a great example of this in that they are owned by what you can only call a prolific financial criminal, Steve Cohen. Like, it's just a guy that was banned by the SEC from trading because of all the insider trading that he did.

[Ed Zitron]

Oh my God.

[David Roth]

Yeah, I know. And people are.

[Ed Zitron]

Guy can't have friends.

[David Roth]

I know, right? They're mad at him. They're jealous.

[Pablo Torre]

I would love Francesa on this topic specifically, who is that?

[David Roth]

Like going over his art collection. There's a lot of Modigliani's, you know, and I don't like them. You know, they're too skinny. But the we love Modigliani jokes here also.

[Ed Zitron]

Who is that?

[David Roth]

He's a sculptor.

[Ed Zitron]

Okay.

[David Roth]

And they are very skinny. But the more of a Brancusi guy. But so Cohen though, like bought the Mets. This is the team that he was obsessed with as a fan, as a kid. And basically this is what he's going to do with the rest of his life. He went and he took a team that was owned by a Fail family, not just fail sons. It was a whole multi generational thing and did the stuff that I was talking about in terms of basically investing in the little things that make an organization work better. In this case, it's people that help your pitchers pitch better, coaches that actually help in an individual way, and then also executives. Executives that like understand that these are people and they need to be sort of like treated as such. This is like the story, such as it's told about how the Mets managed to outbid the Yankees. For Juan Soto. Part of it was that like the Yankees were dicks to him, they were dicks to his family.

[Ed Zitron]

And Juan Soto is an extremely good player who's not been as good as he should be.

[David Roth]

You know, he's been a little bit of a disappointment, but.

[Pablo Torre]

But he was paid the biggest contract in the history of sports.

[David Roth]

Yes. And so it's like you have to pay the money, but then also if you want to win that person over, the generational talent that you give that amount of money you. In the Mets case, it was basically like they have a really nice family room for the kids of the players at the stadium, which is not something that they did under ownership. Yeah. And so Steve Cohen, who is a guy that is like the definition of a class enemy of mine. Everything that I want this country to be, he is, is in the fucking way of it being that. And yet he does own my favorite baseball team and he has done a pretty good job hiring pitching coaches. And at some point you like, this is all true.

[Pablo Torre]

No, it's all true.

[David Roth]

It's real. You can soften your opinion on a guy for that reason.

[Pablo Torre]

Absolutely. And Steve Cohen, authentically is also a guy who like listens to sports talk radio.

[David Roth]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And he's not a fake fan. He's a real fan as well.

[David Roth]

And not even in like always the most flattering ways. Like he sometimes will get on Twitter and and like recommend some like lower tier Mets prospect guy. And it's like, talk to your own fucking prospect guys. Dude, they definitely know more than this guy does.

[Ed Zitron]

So I hate to wrap it up there. Just going to say Steve Cohen, if you're listening. Come on. Better offline. Let's talk about the Mets.

[David Roth]

Can I say one more thing about Steve Cohen?

[Ed Zitron]

Absolutely.

[David Roth]

So this is why I think he is game and why I think he will be on this. Do you know about Steve Cohen? This is more for Pablo because I know Eddie. Do you know about his Guy Fieri fixation?

[Ed Zitron]

Who is that?

[David Roth]

So Guy Fieri? Diners drive insane oh, sorry.

[Ed Zitron]

I've just never heard it said like that.

[David Roth]

That's how he says it. Oh, Guy Fieri. I'll say it the way that it's how I was.

[Pablo Torre]

He's the Modigliani television chefs.

[David Roth]

Yeah. He's. Yes.

[Ed Zitron]

I think that's for our Europeans. 5, 000 calorie meals.

[David Roth]

Yes.

[Ed Zitron]

And donkey sauce. He looks like smash mouth.

[David Roth]

Yeah, he's a crazy. He looks like accurate. Everybody from Smash Mouth made into one.

[Pablo Torre]

Mashed into one mouth.

[David Roth]

Yes, it is Smash Mo. A smash burger of sorts.

[Pablo Torre]

No one has resembled the term Smash mouth more than Guy Vie. Yep.

[Ed Zitron]

Even the band.

[David Roth]

But so his diners drive ins and dives. Really is good though. I've never eaten a hot dog.

[Ed Zitron]

And he's also like a good guy.

[David Roth]

Anyway, but so the show is him driving around the country, going to someplace, eating a hot dog and being like, that's. That's crazy, brother. That's a crazy hot dog. Steve Cohen, super fan of the show, appears in a couple of episodes as a diner in kind of like a weird. I saw one.

[Ed Zitron]

He just like sneaks in.

[David Roth]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

I.

[David Roth]

There's one in Los Angeles of him just eating a Luganiga sausage. And he's not like a handsome man. He's just like a guy. But he's at some place he doesn't have any lines. But then he did apparently Pay Guy Fieri $100,000 to hang out with him for a day and go to all of his favorite restaurants, like the hot dog places in Connecticut that he likes.

[Ed Zitron]

That's exactly what I see.

[David Roth]

To me, that is actually like, that's an inkling of that person might do a good job owning a baseball team.

[Pablo Torre]

There's a follow up episode that maybe I need to do on my show where I find out out who's actually good at being rich.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, I would. Please have me up. It sounds amazing. That actually sounds like an incredible.

[David Roth]

There are always guys that are good at being owners. Honestly, it's just not being unhappy about everything.

[Pablo Torre]

A through line that you established in.

[David Roth]

That you wouldn't tell Jim Ursay. You wouldn't tell anyone to be more like Jim Ursay. RIP and yet, like Jim Irsay spent the last years of his life with like a touring band of notable blues musicians, traveling venues across the country and doing the worst versions of Neil Young's songs you've ever heard that he would sing.

[Ed Zitron]

That fucking rocks.

[David Roth]

It rocks. It's great. I have no doubt.

[Pablo Torre]

I wish more people. I regret to confirm it rocks.

[David Roth]

Yeah.

[Ed Zitron]

So we wrap up here. And I will say another thing about all of this is the two wonderful men I'm here with, actually Daniel as well. We all fucking love our jobs and we're truly, like, deeply into them. I talked to Danil about random fucking production stuff is a joy to do. And I think that that is actually the real solution to a lot of these problems is give people who actually give a fuck money and let them do cool shit. David, where can people find you?

[David Roth]

Now the pressure's on because we already know that Ed is very critical of my promos. Defector.com is the website. It is a subscription site, but you can read a few articles for free and decide if you like it. The podcast I do there is the Distraction. The podcast I do about Hallmark movies is It's Christmas Town. And if you like Pablo and Ed, you can hear them on the Distraction. Neither one of these guys has been on the Hallmark podcast yet, but it's a long. It's a long process. It's hard. Yes, indeed. And then I don't. Mom Blue Sky, I guess. David J. Roth.

[Ed Zitron]

I'll have the links in that. Pablo.

[Pablo Torre]

Pablo. Tori finds out is the show. It is on YouTube and it's a podcast and I have a substack. It's at www.pablo show. And I aspire to talk about some Hallmark movies with a guy who's only killed one of two turtles that he.

[David Roth]

So far, you know, God killed that.

[Ed Zitron]

But. And I'm Ed Zitron. You can find me on a podcast.

[David Roth]

It's called Better Offline.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, God killed that.

[David Roth]

God smoked my turtle.

[Ed Zitron]

It's like, well, God friended me.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Ed Zitron]

Anyway, I'm Ed Zitron. You've been listening to the podcast Better Offline. We talk about technology or some such business. Wonderful producer, of course, Daniel Goodman here in the beautiful New York City, Nevada. Please, please subscribe to my newsletter as well. Where's your Ed? What's great is this is gonna end. You're gonna hear exactly the same shit again and you're gonna email me and say, ed re. Record it. No, don't do it. Thank you for listening to Better Offline. The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song is Matto Sauski. You can check out more of his music and audio [e-mail] m a t t o s o w s k-I.com you can email me at ezetteroffline.com or visit betteroffline.com to find more podcast links and of course, my newsletter. I Also really recommend you go to chat wheresyoured at to visit the Discord and go to R betteroffline to check out our Reddit thank you so much for listening. Better Offline is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonemedia. Com or check us out on the.

[Pablo Torre]

Iheartradio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you.

[Unknown (iHeart Ad Speaker)]

Get your podcast.

[Unknown (Anabe Ad Speaker)]

This July 4th celebrate freedom from spills, stains and overpriced furniture with Annabe, the only machine washable sofa inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly pricing. Sofas start at just $699, making it the perfect time to upgrade your space. Annabe's pet friendly stain Resistance resistant and interchangeable slipcovers are made with high performance fabric that's built for real life. You'll love the cloud like comfort of hypoallergenic high resilience foam that never needs fluffing and a durable steel frame that stands the test of time with modular pieces you can rearrange anytime. It's a sofa that adapts to your Life. Now through July 4th, get up to 60% off site [e-mail] Every order comes with a 30 day satisfaction guarantee guarantee. If you're not in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping, no restocking fees. Every penny back. Declare independence from dirty outdated furniture. Shop [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply. Welcome to paradise with the Platinum card. Unlock over 1500 dollars back in value annually on select purchases across travel, entertainment and dining. Now let's make our trip next level Hottest restaurant booked with Rezi Unforgettable experiences event access Endless vibes Late hotel checkout yes please Platinum Card membership for a trip that's nothing less than iconic. Learn more@american express.com Explore Platinum Terms Apply.

[Lex Borrero]

Welcome to the you vs you podcast. I'm Lex Borrero inviting you to go beyond the title and the accolades of the world's most successful entertainers. Each week we take off the cape and get real about the inner battles, childhood stories and the moments that shaped our guests. Get inspired to become the best version of you. Listen to you versus you podcast on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ed Zitron]

Are there any pictures of you online?

[Unknown (Oracle Ad Speaker)]

Then you could already be in a massive police database without even knowing it.

[David Roth]

Clearview scrapes together images from Facebook, from LinkedIn, from Venmo accounts.

[Ed Zitron]

I'm Dexter Thomas, host of Kill Switch, a podcast about how living in the future is affecting us right now.

[David Roth]

Police, they are trusting the software with this magical ability to lead them to the right suspect.

[Unknown (Oracle Ad Speaker)]

In this episode, we dive into how cops are using AI and facial recognition.

[Ed Zitron]

And sometimes getting it wrong and putting innocent people behind bars.

[David Roth]

So if your accuser is this algorithm, but you're not even being told that it was used, let alone given any of the details about how it works.

[Ed Zitron]

Listen to Kill Switch on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[David Roth]

This is an iHeart podcast.