Saving Games Journalism With Giant Bomb

Summary

Better Offline Podcast Summary: "Saving Games Journalism With Giant Bomb"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Better Offline
• Host/Author: Cool Zone Media and iHeartPodcasts
• Episode: Saving Games Journalism With Giant Bomb
• Release Date: May 21, 2025

Overview: In this episode of Better Offline, host Ed Zitron engages in an insightful conversation with the new owners of the renowned gaming site Giant Bomb—Jeff Bacalar, Jeff Grubb, and Dan Reichert. The discussion delves into the recent acquisition of Giant Bomb, the current landscape of games journalism, the challenges posed by corporate ownership, and the promising shift towards independent journalism models. The guests share their experiences, perspectives, and vision for the future of gaming media.

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1. Introduction to Giant Bomb's New Ownership

Timestamp: [02:15]
Host (Ed Zitron):
"Today I'm joined by the new owners of gaming site Giant Bomb, Jeff Bacalar, Jeff Grubb, and Dan Reichert. Fellas, welcome to the show."

Conversation Highlights:

• Jeff Bacalar: Outlines the transition from Fandom to the new ownership model, emphasizing the acquisition of assets rather than the entire business structure.
• Dan Reichert: Discusses the rapid setup of the new business, including establishing a bank account and dividing responsibilities equally among the new owners.

Notable Quote:

Dan Reichert [04:17]: "It's going to be us kind of taking it on all ourselves, splitting it up evenly amongst us and just getting to work and investing our time and seeing a payoff because now it's all on us."

2. The Current State of Games Journalism

Timestamp: [05:25]
Host (Will Pearson):
"It's both one of the most depressing times in games journalism history and one of the most encouraging because the amount of layoffs are horrifying."

Conversation Highlights:

• The decline of traditional games journalism amidst corporate restructuring and layoffs.
• The historical context of corporate ownership in gaming media, dating back to 2008 with multiple ownership changes.
• Emphasis on building a sustainable and independent model to preserve quality journalism.

Notable Quote:

Dan Reichert [05:47]: "What this, with the, with the aftermath experiment and all these other sort of independent journalistic entities have sort of shown is that this can work with a private sort of consideration of ownership as opposed to, you know, just having it be another asset in the corporate media portfolio."

3. The Impact of Corporate Ownership and Private Equity

Timestamp: [07:11]
Host (Dan Reichert):
"These large entities buy them because I imagine they're traffic drivers and there's always news and there's always kind of search traffic coming in from games and guides."

Conversation Highlights:

• Examination of how private equity firms target gaming media outlets like Polygon and Vox Media for their high traffic and SEO potential.
• Discussion on the detrimental effects of such acquisitions on the quality of journalism and employee morale.

Notable Quote:

Ed Zitron [07:11]: "These kind of equity firms, they spot this and they want to extract that value. It means bad things for the actual people working at these sites almost universally every time."

4. The Shift Towards Independent Journalism

Timestamp: [14:12]
Host (Jeff Bacalar):
"We want to try to make as much money for ourselves as possible. But clearly the right choice is let's work with everyone, get everyone sort of moving in the same direction, get people feeling good about this space again."

Conversation Highlights:

• The importance of collaboration among independent creators to foster a supportive community.
• The contrast between corporate-driven media and creator-owned platforms in maintaining editorial integrity and personality.
• Optimism about the rise of smaller, independent outlets that prioritize genuine content over corporate profit motives.

Notable Quote:

Dan Reichert [29:03]: "If we don't do that well, then we're not holding up our part of the bargain."

5. Importance of Personality and Genuine Content

Timestamp: [24:37]
Host (Will Pearson):
"It's so fucking stupid because I feel like these outlets could on some level, maybe not a ton print money like they. There are tons of gamers who love reading stuff."

Conversation Highlights:

• The critical role of personality in games journalism, which differentiates independent creators from corporate outlets.
• The challenges of monetizing content while maintaining authenticity and personal engagement with the audience.
• The detrimental impact of stripped-down, personality-less content driven by corporate agendas and SEO.

Notable Quote:

Dan Reichert [33:02]: "That is a thing that has to be genuine. That is a thing you can't replace."

6. Future Plans for Giant Bomb

Timestamp: [43:12]
Guest (Jeff Bacalar):
"Our friends come sit on a couch and I interview them and we do like, six a night. And the whole idea is just about, like, getting cool people from the industry into the same room together so we could just talk this stuff out."

Conversation Highlights:

• Plans to continue legacy features like "GB at Night" during events such as Summer Game Fest.
• Exploration of live streams and event-based content to engage with the community and industry insiders.
• Intent to grow organically while maintaining a close-knit team structure, anticipating eventual expansion as revenue stabilizes.

Notable Quote:

Ed Zitron [43:00]: "It came from, like, the fact that the audience was so excited. It's like, oh, you know, they wanted that thing to keep going."

7. Conclusion: Optimism for the Future

Timestamp: [50:28]
Guests (Dan Reichert and Jeff Bacalar):
"We've got optimism and, you know, we were always passionate and everything, but now it just really feels like we're free to directly make the stuff the audience wants."

Conversation Highlights:

• A collective sense of hope and determination among the new Giant Bomb owners and guests.
• Recognition of the broader movement towards independent media as a sustainable and ethical alternative to corporate-run outlets.
• Encouragement to the community to support and engage with independent creators to foster a healthier media ecosystem.

Notable Quote:

Dan Reichert [42:40]: "With a little bit of what happened with our story. And I can be super jazzed about that, especially in the manner it did. I would like it not to have had to happen so quickly. I wish maybe I had another week or two where Grub and I could have landed this plane. But yeah, it is definitely a bright future in that regard for sure."

---

Key Takeaways:

• The acquisition of Giant Bomb by Jeff Bacalar, Jeff Grubb, and Dan Reichert marks a significant shift towards independent, creator-driven media in the gaming journalism landscape.
• Corporate ownership and private equity have historically compromised the integrity and quality of games journalism by prioritizing traffic and revenue over genuine content.
• Independent journalism fosters a more authentic, personality-rich environment that resonates better with audiences and maintains editorial independence.
• Collaboration among independent creators and fostering a supportive community are crucial for the sustainability and growth of quality gaming media.
• Despite challenges in monetization and competition from large corporate entities, there is optimism that independent outlets like Giant Bomb can thrive by prioritizing moral integrity and audience engagement.

Final Thoughts: This episode underscores the pressing need for a transformation in games journalism—a move away from corporate constraints towards a model that values authenticity, personality, and genuine connections with the audience. Giant Bomb's new ownership exemplifies this shift, offering a hopeful glimpse into a future where independent media can flourish and effectively counterbalance the dominance of private equity in the industry.

Transcript

[Ed Zitron]

You're listening to an iHeart podcast.

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[Amy Robach]

In a world of economic uncertainty and workplace transformation, learn to lead by example.

[Ed Zitron]

From visionary C Suite executives like Shannon.

[Amy Robach]

Schuyler of PwC and Will Pearson of iHeartMedia.

[Ed Zitron]

The good teacher explains the great teacher inspires. Don't always leave your team to do the work that's been the most important.

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Part of how to Lead by Example.

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Listen to Leading by Example executives making an impact on the iHeartRadio app, Apple.

[Ed Zitron]

Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jeff Bacalar]

Call Zone Media.

[Will Pearson]

Hello and welcome to Better Offline. I'm your host, Ed Zitron.

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Better Offline.

[Will Pearson]

As a reminder, you can now buy shir hoodies and even mugs in our merchandise store. There's a link in the notes. God damn it, give me money. I need you to wear the shirt for me. Today I'm joined by the new owners of gaming site Giant Bomb, Jeff Bacalar, Jeff Grubb, and Dan Reichert. Fellas, welcome to the show.

[Ed Zitron]

It's pronounced Vitron. Okay. All right.

[Will Pearson]

Yeah.

[Jeff Bacalar]

Okay.

[Will Pearson]

Most people get. I definitely. On an interview a few days ago, miss Said my own name and miss Said I was like, z better off. Shit. And Matt Osawski, my producer, regularly hears these things, so that's always fun. But congratulations, by the way. So walk me through. Dan, perhaps walk me through what happened. So there was some filing in and out from Giant Bomb, and then you guys kind of took it over.

[Jeff Bacalar]

Yeah. So it's interesting. I started the longest ago in like, 2014. So in terms of how the recent stuff went down, I think the. Jeff's here, fellas. Tell me if I'm wrong. I feel like you maybe have had some on the phone.

[Dan Reichert]

No, that's good. I like watching this guy sweat.

[Ed Zitron]

Let's see.

[Jeff Bacalar]

I just wanted to make sure I didn't. I'm not like, oh, yeah, I did all this work. You know, it's like I just kind of fell into this. No, Jeff. And Jeff left Fandom, our previous parent company, and as part of the deal, were able to buy Giant Bomb and are bringing in, you know, me, Jan Ochoa, our longtime producer, and our good friend Mike Minati, who has been trying to be full time at Giant Bomb for a long time. And he completely skipped full time and went straight from college contractor to co owner of the website. Yes, yes. So, yeah, long history of corporate ownership and, you know, dating back to 2008. And, you know, four different owners, basically. And now I guess we are the. The fifth group.

[Will Pearson]

Nice. So what is the new structure? So you guys are all the owners. You're going to be doing the same kind of games journalism you're already doing. I know that the YouTube channel went offline. Is it coming back?

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, yeah, we. We were streaming to YouTube just right before we came here. Yeah, we were doing our light club show. So right now the structure looks like, are we getting all the stuff from Fandom that. That we need? And they've been very helpful in. In that stuff, but it's like just kind of getting the keys to everything. And then there is a whole other process of us getting a business started because this wasn't like us necessarily buying the business. We bought a lot of assets, so we have to start our own business to sort of take these things on and make it make sense to. So in parallel, while we were goofing off, while Mike was playing Rascal for the PlayStation 1 for our game where we show where we play bad games, Baccalaureate was still working in the background, making sure that we'll Have a bank account and stuff like that. But as far as like the overall, like idea of what this company looks like, yeah, it's going to be us kind of taking it on all on ourselves, kind of splitting it up evenly amongst us and just getting to work and investing our time and seeing a payoff because now it's all on us.

[Will Pearson]

It's weird as well because it's like both one of the most depressing times in games journalism history and one of the most encouraging because the amount of layoffs are horrifying. But you and Aftermath have really come out of, well, I don't want to say nowhere because it's been quite public and chaotic. You kind of seem to be building a new model for journalism at large.

[Dan Reichert]

Yeah, well, yeah, I think the lesson everyone learned, they learned like 10 years ago where the sort of content, temporary understanding of games media or really any media, you know, that covers some sort of entertainment is probably not compatible with what a corporation would need out of that in terms of like revenue expectations and just, you know, filing in in a way that makes sense and that's fine. And I think, you know, what this, with the, with the aftermath experiment and all these other sort of independent journalistic entities have sort of shown is that this can work with a private sort of consideration of ownership as opposed to, you know, just having it be another asset in the corporate media portfolio. Right. That and I think the value that these types of entities present make a lot more sense right, under the guise of private ownership than they do, you know, under the umbrella.

[Will Pearson]

So kind of, yeah, it kind of feels as well like games journalism gets pulled in very hard by these big private equity. I'm not specifically referring to any of them, just to be clear. These large entities buy them because I imagine they're traffic drivers and there's always news and there's always kind of search traffic coming in from games and guides.

[Ed Zitron]

And stuff like that. Yeah, these things have been honed to be SEO, you know, sort of machines for a long time. The people who've been in charge of have once understood that to be very important. Now of course, like Google has made things very complicated for a lot of sites that built their sites in one way and now they has to shift and no one really understands the way the winds are blowing. But yeah, that traffic means something to someone for sure. And that's why you see something like a Polygon becoming the target of a val. Now, I guess the public understanding is Valnet approached Vox Media about Polygon and asked them about it like Some time ago. And they've been trying to make this happen since then. Vox wasn't necessarily shopping around, but it became the target of that because it does have this traffic, it has this built in. If you search for something, there's a good chance Polygon is going to serve it to you in the video game space. And yeah, so these kind of equity firms, they spot this and they want to extract that value. It means bad things for the actual people working at these sites almost universally every time. And that's why this other model of us coming and being like we're going to own it ourselves and we're going to have a direct relationship with the, with the audience that kind of is the only ground to retreat to at this point. We are either going to keep having this stuff because we're all in it together, as hokey as that sounds, or we're just not going to have it at all. Those are the options.

[Dan Reichert]

Yeah. It's also, I think it's important to call out that like there does exist a type of person that I think we all sort of slot into in this Goldilocks Zone that has sat on both sides of the sort of influential divide where, you know, we all began our careers in a very kind of like, I don't, maybe not antiquate is not the right word, but a. Certainly a traditional sort of like media and publisher relationship and work in friendship.

[Jeff Bacalar]

I worked for a newspaper, in print.

[Will Pearson]

I worked for PC Zone and cvg.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah.

[Dan Reichert]

And let's be honest, we're not that old.

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[Dan Reichert]

Like we're, you know, we're 39 years young.

[Ed Zitron]

Exactly.

[Jeff Bacalar]

We sit in the tree.

[Dan Reichert]

Maybe we sit, we sit in this very weird sort of like, like I said, this Goldilocks zone where we're like, we understand what came before, what happened during and now what's after. And I think that very uniquely positions a small slice of sort of institutional knowledge. Right. Where you can kind of like leverage that in a way that not a lot of people have that sort of insight from both sides of the fence.

[Jeff Bacalar]

And that goes back to, you know, the founding of giant bomb in 2008 because it was four guys that broke off from Gamespot, you know, more traditional web based gaming media and form this very personality focused thing, you know, like kind of in the early days of YouTube Gaming personalities and things like that. But it did come from that. Yeah, institutional knowledge. People that had work, you know, E3s dating back to the 90s and things like that. It wasn't just, you know, some kids that started YouTubing and getting big. It kind of straddled the line from the beginning.

[Will Pearson]

I admit. One of the saddest things for me was watching PC Zone collapse. It was the magazine I worked at, the games magazine I worked at in England. And in a different time, I think they would have come together. We would have come together and done something. But 2008 was when that happened, I was moving to America as well. But that was Future Publishing bought them. Future.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, yeah.

[Will Pearson]

What are they going to do to me?

[Ed Zitron]

Yes. And they repeatedly kind of do that stuff to people. So yeah, for real quick on that. Like I remember thinking like back when that was happening in 2008, when EGM and One up was collapsing. It's like it had the One Up Yours podcast kind of lasted a few more years. They all could have easily just transitioned that into a. A podcast with. With ads for one thing, and then a direct to customer supported way of doing things on the other hand. And that really would have taken off for them. Instead they, A lot of those guys had to go kind of filter into working in the. The corporate side for making games.

[Will Pearson]

The problem is with podcasts is, as you well know, like, monetizing them is very difficult. People complain about the ads here being under iHeartRadio. I mean, it works great because Call zone Media and iHeart leaves us alone fairly. But people complain about the ads. It's like, have you tried starting a podcast? It isn't cheap, so it's. It's just a frustrating but great time because Aftermath's doing really interesting stuff that I feel is going to be. I feel like Giant Bomb's going to be very like classic gamer stuff, like creative, but still very much about the games. And Aftermath is doing that. Plus what would have been called derisively new games journalism way back when. God. Do you remember that, fellas?

[Ed Zitron]

Yep.

[Will Pearson]

New games. I remember that. I remember when people were talking about that.

[Ed Zitron]

Let's talk about that Ludo narrative dissonance.

[Dan Reichert]

There you go.

[Will Pearson]

Oh fuck.

[Jeff Bacalar]

Like the start of Polygon press reset type stuff.

[Ed Zitron]

Ye.

[Jeff Bacalar]

Yeah.

[Will Pearson]

Explain that for the listeners because it sucks. But they should know.

[Ed Zitron]

You talk about the Polygon thing or. Go ahead, Dan.

[Jeff Bacalar]

Oh, it's just like Games media going back to like, you know, EGM and Game Informer, like the magazines of the 90s to like the early, you know, web based IGN GameSpot stuff. It was just, you know, we, we were parroting press releases and it's like news stories are basically like, there's a new box art for Assassin's Creed.

[Ed Zitron]

How many guns does your game have? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Jeff Bacalar]

Oh, you're getting more levels this time, like that type of stuff. So it's like. That's why I, even back when I started, never considered myself a journalist because I realized it's just like, okay, I'm just kind of reporting on silly things here and giving a score to a game and things like that.

[Will Pearson]

But I think that there's something marvelous about that with games journalism is why there's. Because I don't like Aftermath. They'll write. Gita, especially over there, has written like very long form, thoughtful, emotional pieces. I think that that's what's. I want to say missing because it's happening. But that's what makes game journalism great. You can have stuff where it's just like, I played something, it stunk to shit, it made me angry, I want to kill someone. But I love it because it's got this one tiny. Like there was. I remember reviewing a Game Zone, the Skyfall movie tie in game.

[Ed Zitron]

Oh my God.

[Jeff Bacalar]

Activision Bond game. Yeah.

[Will Pearson]

Remarkably tight. Gears of War clone. And I remember being like, this sucks, but I love it. That's great for gaming as well. But then the very deep emotional stuff. And I think that it's what lends itself to exactly what you're doing, which is this kind of let's get together, let's make something about our hobby and our job and whatever. And the in between part can be giant bomb.

[Jeff Bacalar]

Yeah, I think there's very much room for both because I remember like when Polygon was starting in like, you know, probably like the 2013, 2014, whenever that was, and they were very much, you know, banging the drum of like, we are doing serious games journalism and telling human stories and it's going to be this emotional, deep stuff. And I remember looking at that and being like, I don't know how the fuck to do that. But I can tell you if Never Dead is any good, you know, so. But I think there's room for both because, like, someone like me broke in because I wanted to work with a bunch of dorks and talk about video games and now make videos about video games. But then there are important stories to tell. And I think, you know, to give Grub some credit here, I think Grub might be the best I've ever seen at balancing both. Like, he does the daily News show on giantbomb.com and we'll cover the serious stuff and layoffs and just kind of issues facing the industry. But then he'll also dress up Like Bubsy and play Bubsy 3D for Blight Club, you know. So I do think Grub is uniquely qualified to do both ends of that.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah. And I enjoy in both. I definitely remember growing up being, like, reading EGM or Game Players and being like, man, the people who are in this magazine, they have a lot of personality and they clearly fill every page with that. And I, I, I, like, know these people by name now. I kind of know what they're what they're into and I built a real connection with them and then, you know, that then that would actually lead me into some of their real reporting on stuff that mattered to them, especially in EGM and then like, Next Gen magazine later. And I just remember, like, really enjoying both sides of that. A lot of games are silly and st and wouldn't it be fun if we took that seriously? And I really enjoy that aspect of my job.

[Will Pearson]

Yeah. And CVG used to have this kind of yellow. I don't know if you ever physically read an issue of Computer and Video Games magazine. It's British and all, but they had this middle section that was in like, almost like Yellow Pages style, and it was just rambling shit. It was beautiful. It's like games genuinely. Like, I was a loser up until like, two years ago and, like, games were the one thing that I could bond with people over because it didn't require you to be anyone. Like, I played a shit ton of Everquest. I was, I think it was one of the first mmo, like real MMO reporters in England. Ollie Welsh as well. Legend.

[Ed Zitron]

Oh, sure, yeah. Shout out to Ali.

[Will Pearson]

But it's like one of the leftover Polygon people. It's just what pisses me off about all of this as well is it doesn't seem that hard to run a games journalism outlet. Well, you just don't hire so many people and make them do 11 stories a day.

[Ed Zitron]

I mean, the real sad thing with Polygon is they didn't make any of those mistakes. When people saw the layoffs, they're like, oh, that's a lot of people. It's like they were successful and profitable and could have kept growing, but they had a very sort of like, moderate take on. Okay, yeah, we could, but let's just keep all this sustainable. And a lot of that goes down to the leadership of Chris Plant, who I just admire so much. He is just. He's got such a good head on his shoulders and it just filtered all the way down through Polygon. So it's like they were doing it right. And even Vox was letting them do it right. It's just like even when that happens, you there's that bugs buzzsaw that's going to show up and be like we're going to rip this thing apart and find a way to make more money from it. So here's some money.

[Will Pearson]

It's books. I didn't know they were profitable.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah. So infuriated it was a successful business, I think is how I would phrase.

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[Will Pearson]

It's so fucking stupid because I feel like these outlets could on some level, maybe not a ton print money like they. There are tons of gamers who love reading stuff. Sure. Like, it sounds like Polygon hadn't a sustainable operation. IGN is insane. I don't know. I do. I don't know how many people work at ign. IGN breaks on my phone. I don't know if you've tried to look at an IGN guide. Sometimes I. If you scroll too fast, it just goes, Nah, sorry, mate.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah.

[Jeff Bacalar]

So many sites now could be able.

[Will Pearson]

To play Ragnarok on your own.

[Jeff Bacalar]

Yeah, yeah. It just goes to the top or pops up the thing and you accidentally click the wrong thing. Yeah, I hate that.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, the Internet sucks now.

[Will Pearson]

Yeah, it really does.

[Jeff Bacalar]

This is not an IGN problem as much as it is.

[Will Pearson]

Like should do a show about that.

[Dan Reichert]

A lot of those sites are not. There's, there's. It's tough to really say that they all have agency in a way that you want. Right. And I think everything becomes this Frankensteinian creation of like, you know, sort of meshing it with other properties that sit alongside as sister companies and you're just never gonna have that organic feeling. I do think you're right. I think the Polygon example is good because it was sort of like this semblance of like, oh, this does feel sort of vacuum sealed off in a way that works. And everyone there really doing A tremendous job. But for the most part, whenever you see a lot of these massive behemoth legacy media sites, they are just this Voltron creation that doesn't really allow for that amount of agency that I think the spirit of all those sites wants to be.

[Will Pearson]

Yeah. And I think that, like I've said earlier, they're kind of the obvious victim of any kind of acquisition partner because it's just. You can turn them into a slop shop and then immediately kill them. Immediately kill them.

[Ed Zitron]

Right.

[Dan Reichert]

And that's what the Internet's allowed for. Right. And I know that's like. That's what I read what you say. Like, you always have it spot on. Ed is like, that is like we are just sort of like willfully watching the death of everything and calling it out and just being like, yeah, that's the next ship that came into the harbor filled with ghosts, and we're just gonna watch it continue on its way down to its next port of call. And that's it. It's just this par. Afraid of dead websites and dead Internet.

[Ed Zitron]

And you're familiar with. Familiar with the Tony Hawk's pro skater games. Right? So I was watching. I was trying to read a story on Kotaku the other day. I can't remember what it was about, but it did. It took me to a video instead. And there was a man talking over the video and he kept calling it thps. Thps. And I'm like, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that before. And then it's like, oh, I am. I'm listening to an AI voice. Of course I am. Of course I am.

[Jeff Bacalar]

Oh, interesting. Okay.

[Ed Zitron]

Yes. Because you did it every time in the same thps. Thps.

[Jeff Bacalar]

Yeah. No one says that.

[Ed Zitron]

That. No one says that. So I'm just like, that's. Of course that's. They all think they're going to be able to do that. That's the story we're gonna have to keep telling over and over about what's happening with all these websites and these equity firms coming in here. And I mean, of course I get turned off. I think most the audience probably does get turned off when they experience that. Right. Because the one thing about games and Steven Spawn, who is an accessibility expert in the space, he used to tell me, like, why do we. Why do I want to play video games? He's like, it's a currency. It's a social currency where I play something that I get to talk to someone else about it and we get to share something. We have A connection. I mean, you said the one thing you could bond over with people. Video games. I think we all get that at the very fundamental level. And so these corporations trying to find a way to take that out of there so they could save some money is obviously just going to blow up in their faces. They just don't know it yet.

[Will Pearson]

Yeah. And I actually think it could go the other way though, which is as we get more independent gaming outlets, I think that there could be real success there because I think that that's what people want to like. There is a. Definitely a degree of hunger for when is a game coming out. In the same way that people Google when the Super Bowl's coming. Of course, when the Super Bowl's coming out. When the Super Bowl's happening. There we go. I do watch sports, I did the super bowl episode. But I think the no one actually reads these outlets just to learn that they want a gamer who has played a shit ton of games, who has a good voice to say, I like this or I'm worried about this. And I think the worst of games journalism has been when that's been dragged out of it. It. And even when like we were doing. It was very early days of the website for CVG when we'd have to write shit and just be like, this game's coming out, it's going to be like this. And I wouldn't say we weren't allowed to have character, but it definitely wasn't encouraged. Which is strange because the CBG mag was always so rude.

[Dan Reichert]

It was, it was, it was utility. You were doing utility work. Right. As opposed to personality work.

[Jeff Bacalar]

That's kind of how it worked with like the old preview system with magazines is because like you weren't supposed to since the game wasn't out yet, you know. But I remember I went to like a Xbox One pre launch event thing and I played Son of Rome. And I remember just thinking it was like. I think the headline I used was like, oh, it's as fun as dialing a phone number because it's just like waiting for something to turn red. Then you press the red button. Then it just sucks.

[Will Pearson]

Calling it Microsoft Snack.

[Jeff Bacalar]

Yeah, yeah, I wrote that and it was like it had a negative tone. And the game was about to come out in like three weeks and it's like. And I kind of said like, this seems like it might suck in the preview. And I remember like, like both like comments and stuff and people at work being like, whoa, whoa, whoa, we can't have this much like opinion in A preview. It's like, I think I can this. It's gonna kind of suck, you know?

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, there's no. No rules there. I. I Remember when Mark McDonald over at EGM said he played too human and said it's gonna be terrible. And Dennis Dyak like like insisted on coming on their podcast and talking to him about it and like scolded him for doing that for free and said, you're going to regret everything you said when you played the final version.

[Will Pearson]

We'll rue the day that you insulted two humans. I don't think.

[Ed Zitron]

I don't think he.

[Dan Reichert]

There was no ruling.

[Will Pearson]

Jesus. But this is even. This conversation is what is fun about games journalism. Because even a shit game you have the kind of horse trading like shit. Do you remember that terrible preview? I do genuinely miss this about games journalism. Like, it's the one. It's probably. I miss it more than the writing about the games because back at PZ Zone we had like Log Steve Hogarty, Will Porter, we had all sorts of like fun other people like Ryan, all the people from the mag who just yell at you. And I think that. And actually I'm curious your thoughts about this. I think what this industry also needs to do is rebuild the solidarity because it was quite. There was quite a lot of it in 2008. Feels like it's kind of drifted and I feel like that's. It's something in tech media I want to do too. I want people to come back together and realize it really is us versus them. Them being.

[Dan Reichert]

Well, I'm curious to hear where you think like the friction primarily lies.

[Will Pearson]

I think what it is is the. So many people have been hired, fired, hired, fired. So many people have left games journalism, gone into pr, and then the people that own these companies have stopped even being the classic like Fortune as Fortune Future or Dennis Publishing. It's the people. So you've always had IGN as this kind of thing over here, this juggernaut. And then remote work to an extent as well has done it too. It's just there's less events when people are meeting. I don't even know how we fix this. But it's something that I'm very big in in tech media at least trying to bring people together and being like, hey look, it is really us versus the largest corporations in the world.

[Colgate Total]

Sure.

[Ed Zitron]

I mean that's the. That's absolutely been my primary thought that pops in my head throughout this entire experience is we really are in this together. And that mean when I say us that we're in this together. I am thinking about the other people who are in this creator driven space. So kind of funny. He's been super supportive and helping us out and giving us pointers and stuff like that. The guys over at Next Lander have been pointing out like Dan was on Jeff Gerstman's show yesterday. It's like we did realize pretty quickly when Greg Miller did take that team kind of funny to go independent, that there isn't that real competition. Like there is. The more people that care about the kinds of the ways that we talk about video games, the better for everybody. And people can bounce around between these various sites that have a slightly, slightly different take on it. So we keep growing that space. It's good for everyone. So how do we turn that into something? And it's like, definitely I. I'm coming into it with, I'm gonna like reference a book that I haven't read yet, but I saw the interview on Daily Daily Show. I'm gonna do it. I'm probably gonna, I'm probably gonna misrepresent it. But it was like Moral Ambition was the name of the book. And it was this idea of you should, in the system that we have, have ambition to try to do big things, cool things, try to go make money, that's fine. But when confronted with a fork in the road about, hey, I could do this or I could do that, in that moment, go with the one that feels the most morally correct with you. And like now we're in this moment where it's like we could hunker down and try to make as much money for ourselves as possible. But clearly the right choice is let's work with everyone, get everyone sort of moving in the same direction, get people feeling good about this space again. And then maybe we can kind of heal some of that rift that you're talking about a little bit. I don't know. We're not going to be able to get back to people who are reactionaries that have turned to right wingers on YouTube.

[Will Pearson]

They were never part of it and.

[Ed Zitron]

They were never part of it. Exactly. So we just got to focus on the ones that are. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And there's a lot of people who are right there ready to listen again. We just gotta like let em know it's cool in here again.

[Dan Reichert]

Yeah.

[Will Pearson]

And I think we need to get back to the. A lot of smaller teams. I think that. Because I'm actually really glad you corrected me. I thought polygon was that they grew too big. That was just the assumption. I'D made, which was incorrect, clearly.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah. Not what I've heard from anyone that I've talked to. Yeah.

[Will Pearson]

Sucks. Because I was originally. They talked to me at the beginning of Polygon. I was in PR at the time and they're like, yeah, do you want to come over here? Was like, no, I must stay at a job I'm unhappy at.

[Ed Zitron]

It's like they were too much probably in the beginning for sure, but they definitely kind of figured that out over time.

[Will Pearson]

Oh, no, no, they. No, they genuinely. They wanted me to do PR. I think it was just McElroy and it's. I think that the future is going to be lots of smaller ones. I think the games as well. There is less competition because it's not like scoop heavy. I guess you could play a game first, but at that point you just. You played the game.

[Dan Reichert]

Like, I still think there's a semblance of that and there is, but it's.

[Will Pearson]

Not like compared getting a massive funding announcement in tech or like a breakthrough technology.

[Dan Reichert]

Sure, sure, sure. Like a partnered sort of embargo thing. I mean, yeah, competition, certainly, but you're right. Like, there's like, everyone is small. That's what the landscape is. And it's the reckoning of corporate media having this realization of, like, our competition is 30,000 small independent creators and how do we. How do we, like, come to terms with that in a way that. That will satisfy what we need this thing to do?

[Ed Zitron]

No one. No one has an answer to that.

[Dan Reichert]

Yeah. And the answer is no one knows how to do it because probably there is no answer. So that realization, that epiphany, which I think everyone has to have for themselves at one point in their life, kind of lends you to why things like this wind up happening.

[Will Pearson]

And I think that there's also the problem of all of these big entities buying things and draining all the personality out is it's replaced all the personality with people on YouTube that post pictures of themselves frowning and saying, the dragon age has got woke in it or whatever.

[Jeff Bacalar]

Oh, that went. We got to take those pictures of us frowning, guys.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah. Frowning based organization.

[Dan Reichert]

I got to work on my pointing, like the.

[Will Pearson]

The. And this is. This is a reference as well, just to any listeners. It's like Uber Driver sucked me off and it was like the Rob Wisman picture. Anyone who doesn't know what that is, I swear it's not just me talking.

[Jeff Bacalar]

About that, but my favorite is the Undertaker. Got a podcast not too long ago, and seeing the undertaker do YouTube faces is very, very Funny.

[Ed Zitron]

Hell yeah.

[Will Pearson]

That's.

[Dan Reichert]

It comes for everyone.

[Will Pearson]

But we need the opinion. Like, we do actually need the opinion back. It's just the gaming online. I feel like I got the last chopper out of Nam sometimes because it's like gaming online was like, oh, you don't like fucking Sonic and Mario? I will kill you.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, Yep.

[Will Pearson]

You. You insult Bubsy the Bobcat.

[Ed Zitron]

I will.

[Will Pearson]

Yeah. I can and I have.

[Dan Reichert]

You know, fanboy ism is a currency for sure. And I think like, like that argument of position, as much as it sucks. Right. Is a thing that probably too many people are finding the worst things about themselves and placing it into the energy of that discourse online. And I think that's what probably separates, for my personal taste, what I want to watch and what is out there. And I think the fact that you, I think like personality is another form of currency. That is a thing that is all but lost in a lot of larger media outlets. That is a thing you can't replace. That is a thing that AI is not going to replace. That is a thing that has to be genuine.

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[Amy Robach]

Robach and TJ Holmes. Here, Diddy's former protege, television personality, platinum selling artist Danity King. Alum Aubrey o' Day joins us to provide a unique, unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation.

[Aubrey O'Day]

Aubrey o' Day is sitting next to us. Here you are as we sit here, right up the street from where the trial is taking place. Some people saw that you were going to be in New York and they immediately started jumping to conclusions. So can you clear that up? First of all, are you here to testify in the Diddy trial? Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise based on her firsthand knowledge from her days on making the ban as she emerged as the breakout star. The truth of the situation would be opposite of the glitz and glamour.

[Colgate Total]

It wasn't all bad, but I don't know that any of the good was real. I went through things there.

[Amy Robach]

Listen to Amy and TJ presents Aubrey O' Day covering the Diddy trial on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Taser Incorporated]

I know a lot of cops and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no.

[Ed Zitron]

Across the country, cops called this Taser the revolution.

[Taser Incorporated]

But not everyone was convinced it was that simple.

[Dan Reichert]

Cops believed everything that Taser told them.

[Taser Incorporated]

From Lava for good and the team that brought you Bone Valley comes a story about what happened when a multi billion dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission. This is Absolute Season 1 Taser Incorporated.

[Ed Zitron]

I get right back there.

[Will Pearson]

And it's bad.

[Dan Reichert]

It's really, really, really bad.

[Taser Incorporated]

Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season 1 Taser incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes 1, 2 and 3 on main May 21 and episodes 4, 5 and 6 on June 4 ad free at Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, we were asking that question, like, where's the Lester Bangs of video games journalism? That was part of that new games journalism thing. And it's like it did happen. It was probably dunkey. Like, it's probably. He's like a big YouTuber. Like, just kind of does just funny talking over gameplay and he's got a.

[Will Pearson]

Pretty good eye and he probably thought he was.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah. But yeah, and I mean, Yahtzee's definitely part of that lineage for sure.

[Jeff Bacalar]

100 angry video game nerd YouTube guy I saw. Yeah, Yep.

[Will Pearson]

Yeah, I. And I. I liked Yahtzee's original stuff. I really don't want to look what's happened since. It's one of those things where I hope nothing bad happened.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah. You know Yahtzee's still kind of doing his thing. I think he's over at second win now, which is a Patreon back thing. It's. Yeah.

[Will Pearson]

And I think that every time the ground is seeded away from personality, it is kind of feeding into the right wing type people, though, because the right way, it isn't like you get a bunch of clicks just for being nice or loving stuff.

[Dan Reichert]

Right? Yeah, it's very easy. I think it's very easy for people who are able to make that pivot into hate currency and hate juicing, where they are just like, oh, I can can easily hate on things and use that as ammunition and weaponize this. And that becomes my primary mode of revenue generation. I can pick a target, juice it for all it's worth, like a cancer, and then move on to my next victim. And as long as I'm able to like, just, you know, jump onto the next melting iceberg, I'm gonna be okay. So whether whoever it is the target online, you know, that's how that strategy goes. And tragically, it works for people.

[Ed Zitron]

They're super naked about it. This, like this. In this past week, there was one of these creators who was. And someone like screenshot it posted the blue sky or whatever, him complaining that his videos he does about one individual woman, video games journalist, no longer get very many hits. For months and months and months, he's like, this was my whole business. Now I'm not making any money.

[Dan Reichert]

This was my whole business.

[Ed Zitron]

Yes. He's like harassing someone, explicitly saying, woe is me. I'm not making money from harassing this person anymore. It was one of the most insane things I've ever seen.

[Jeff Bacalar]

You turn it into a conspiracy and you say, oh, I've been shadow banned algorithms against me.

[Dan Reichert]

Because I'm telling the truth.

[Ed Zitron]

Of course.

[Jeff Bacalar]

Of course. Yeah. You know what? All these creators seem very, very happy too.

[Ed Zitron]

That's the one thing about it. Yeah. They all seem very okay.

[Jeff Bacalar]

Like a good line of work, very.

[Will Pearson]

Normal and happy with their life.

[Jeff Bacalar]

Yeah. Mental health. Good for that.

[Will Pearson]

They genuinely don't seem to like playing video games on the computer or console.

[Ed Zitron]

Nope. I mean, they could just do it and they always choose not to.

[Jeff Bacalar]

You have to look at everything through the lens of like, okay, what's the angle on getting people pissed off about this? And that sounds exhausting and miserable.

[Ed Zitron]

That stuff is a little bit low tide right now. I mean, that stuff did pop off again in the last few years, but it didn't last as long. Everyone kind of saw through it and now you are seeing people who were probably pretty young and impressionable in like 2014 when the original Gamergate stuff was happening. Talking about, man, I wish I just didn't click on that one video telling me all the things that all the ways that feminism was ruined video games. Like I could see now that that was a bad choice in the path of my life. I wish I wouldn't have done that. I wasted years and it's like these kids are growing up and, and seeing stuff and like the next generation will be a little bit more cynical about that going forward, I think. Think. But it's always going to be there and they're always going to be trying to. The reality is if they do it and they get rewarded, the algorithm's built to reward them. It's going to keep happening no matter what as long as that's the case.

[Will Pearson]

See what always pissed me off about that other than all the hate and the getting people angry and the attacks on journalism on top of all of that, they don't seem angry at the games companies who are actually making the real. Put aside the made up sexism or made up misandry. It's all not even going to humor. I don't know. Look at the fact that NFL has given one company, Electronic Arts these one game, Madden and it has been bad for 15 years. It has been the same game for the last three.

[Jeff Bacalar]

They did that right when there was good competition and they're like, oh crap, we better lock this down.

[Will Pearson]

And they did.

[Jeff Bacalar]

Yeah.

[Will Pearson]

Yep, they did.

[Ed Zitron]

They did.

[Will Pearson]

And that feels like something. I'm not saying there should be a hate campaign against anything, but maybe if you're going to do one, choose an actual giant company doing horrible shit.

[Dan Reichert]

Yeah, because they don't care. That's not what they're interested in. Right. Like that is not the story for them. The story has to be deeply personal and accessible. I think, you know, an expose about that is like sort of boring in a way where it leads you to.

[Ed Zitron]

The thing as always, it's like, oh, the whole capitalist system. These are all symptoms. And that is not going to help them with them trying to sell hell, this idea that you're isolated because the feminists want you. Isolated.

[Will Pearson]

Yeah, you're right. Yeah. Because you're isolated because the system, the system you're within has kept you separate from people. There aren't walkable cities.

[Dan Reichert]

Right.

[Will Pearson]

There is content to antagonize. It's woman.

[Dan Reichert]

Yeah, that's it. It all comes back to that.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah. In our space, it's women in, you know, common politics. It's immigrants. It's. It's. Yeah. Always the scapegoat.

[Will Pearson]

Yeah. Well, as the son of a woman and an immigrant, I think. No.

[Ed Zitron]

As the father of daughters, was.

[Will Pearson]

The line from Spider Verse. As well as the son of a mother and the father of a daughter. But it's. I do have hope. Seeing Giant Bomb do what you do when the bad stuff happened, I was definitely like, games journalism's fucked. Like, this is just like Polygon. Everything just like, look at it. Just was very dark about it. But, like, actually, I feel like there is an independent wave happening, happening. And there are so many, like, amazing creators, like Lucy James, of course, former Giant Bomb. She's amazing. I only found her work fairly recently. It's like you've got all these amazing creators out there. Gaming is becoming more mainstream and I think that there is genuine hope here. There's genuine mainstream interest. It's just a question of cracking it.

[Dan Reichert]

Yeah, I mean, I think everyone likes that. It's because it's a good story. It's a good story with, you know, I don't want to call it a happy ending. Right. But a very, like, you know, know, a positive way, a positive outcome of a thing that seemed to not have any realistically happy, you know, turnout. And I.

[Ed Zitron]

And it came from, like, the fact that the audience was so excited. It's like, oh, you know, they wanted that thing to keep going. We were able to keep it going. It's like, yeah, you can match that up and make that make sense. And it feels like that should be a business. And we all agreed. Yeah, yeah.

[Jeff Bacalar]

And the tone of our conversations internally, you know, you go to a month ago versus how we're talking now, which is like, oh, my God, it is a world different. We've got. Got optimism and, you know, we were always passionate and everything, but now it just really feels like we're free to. To directly make the stuff the audience wants.

[Ed Zitron]

Yep. Yeah.

[Dan Reichert]

But I think you're right. I think that. I think you're right about an independent sort of wave happening, because I think, you know, I don't. I'm not a big, like, fate or. Or, you know, destiny person, but what I am is that he does believe in ghosts, though. Yeah, well, obviously, but. But I think, like, on a long enough timeline, you have doors that open that allow the sort of spread of a thing that people kind of want to put their energy into and have that proliferate in a positive way. And I think, like I said on a Long enough timeline, odds are. I do think that's gonna break through the surface and come out in a way that makes everyone happy. And I think that is a bit of what happened with our story. And I can be super jazzed about that, especially in the manner it did. I would like it not to have had to happen so quickly. I wish maybe I had another week or two where Grub and I could have landed this plane. But yeah, it is definitely a bright future in that regard for sure.

[Will Pearson]

Yeah. And I also think that, I don't know, personality is profitable. I think that there's real. It requires patience, which private equity does not like like, but like Cool Zone Media, we've done pretty well giving people a Runway to not fuck up, but learn what you're doing. I feel like you, you guys have an advantage. Here's a question though. So it's just you. How many people are you right now? So it's you three and a few other five people. Are you going to be bringing on others? Are you going to be bringing back any of the original GB people who haven't been there? Like what's the plan to expand if there is one? Because isn't a problem if you haven't.

[Ed Zitron]

I mean the reality is like Bacalar is right. This stuff came together so fast past that we don't really have insight into what like our own personal financial futures look like with this thing. We have a. We have an idea. We feel pretty okay about it. But it's like, you know, we're going to keep pushing to try to grow because as fast as we can grow or as many, as many people as we can get to support it, we can then begin to look at doing other things of bringing other people on. But it's, it is scary. It's a. We want to try to figure out as much as we can on our own so we could be solid and then all of the growth can just make sense naturally after that it wouldn't be like, I mean guys, I couldn't imagine ever having more than 10 people. Like.

[Jeff Bacalar]

Right. It's like you said like we haven't even seen the first dollar yet. You know, we, we have no idea what to expect in terms of this. And like even though we were a small outlet under the corporate umbrella, you know, there was a freelancer fund and budget and things like that. So we were able to bring people on and pay them regularly and things like that. And just the business realities of it, you know, the Jeff's here def. Definitely looked into it a lot and we, we don't know yet.

[Dan Reichert]

But yeah, I mean I, I'm, you know, I'm very, I feel like there was a, there was a time where people were sort of like, oh, another one of these. Like, oh, how, how can the market handle another, you know, Patreon or, or independent thing that needs, you know, direct support to, to sustain itself. And you know, I, I, I kind of, I kind of throw that argument away. I think, think it is truly a rising tide situation because the independence allows for collaboration in a really positive and organic way. And I think a lot of people who tell themselves that story, whether they're involved in the business or they are on the audience side of that, are really not seeing the force for the trees and understanding. Like, no, you like look at how YouTube creators and Twitch streamers and all these people help each other grow. It is all about genuine collaboration and audience sharing and like exposing yourself to the people who, even if it's someone who just very slimly overlaps in that Venn diagram, you know, that is the best endorsement you can get. And I think there's, you know, to, to your question, Ed, of like bringing on new people. Like I, I don't think there's really ever a situation where we wouldn't want to collaborate anyone. Obviously having someone on in the full time capacity is a limitation of just what, you know, the business is able to bring in. But I, you know, I don't think that means that in, in no way we wouldn't be open to really exploring all kinds of stuff with people. I mean, that's the point, right? Like that is what we talk about when we say we're in this together, as you said. Right. Like that is the spirit of that. And if we don't do that well, then we're not holding up our part of the bargain.

[Will Pearson]

Are you going to do any event stuff, live stream stuff? I realize all of this is very new, but what are you thinking? And it does not need to be specific.

[Jeff Bacalar]

We announced at PAX east the timing worked out crazy. Like, you know, signatures were signed like the day before PAX east and we were able to do this big announcement and in the future. We've always loved doing pax. Giant bombs always had a big presence at PAX and would love to keep doing that. You know, whether it makes sense to like, you know, unless we're getting like flown out for something like are we going to pay to send the whole crew out to gamescom or something like that.

[Will Pearson]

Like probably not.

[Jeff Bacalar]

Probably not. Especially not this early on, but, like, you know, a lot of times places will offer to, you know, fly you out for preview events or these bigger, you know, conferences and yeah, we would. When it makes sense, we will definitely do that stuff.

[Dan Reichert]

Well, Ed, you're going to bring us out for ces, right? In January.

[Will Pearson]

I don't know how the hell I'm going to get you there or where you're going to sleep, but if you have to be in town, I'd love to have you on. Because CES has become like the solidarity fest, if anyone. Like, we are going to. We're extending CES to two hours per episode, to two a day. Like, we're going to have tons of people on. I. And I just think that that's what the indies can do for each other. I'm not even saying, like, put me on. I'm just saying that acknowledging and working together on this shit is actually how better stuff will be done. Back in the days with Dennis and Future, all those fuck nuts used to hang out. And I say that with deep adoration of said fuck nuts, me being one of them. But it's just, just I think that any independent listening to this needs to know that this, like, the allies are the people doing this independently, too. Not to say people at big outlets aren't, but it's like, we only have each other.

[Ed Zitron]

Yes. I mean, without a doubt. Yeah, I'll do the, the, the. You know, we're going to try to do GB at night at Summer Game Fest and things like that. That's a lot of work right now because it's less than a month away and this all kind of happened real hot. We're doing our best, but, you know, for that, you know, GB at night is this thing where we just have our friends come sit on a couch and I interview them and we do like, six a night. And the whole idea is just about, like, getting cool people from the industry into the same room together so we could just talk this stuff out. And it's. It's very cathartic. It's like, oh, yeah, we. You do come out of that feeling more connected and like, oh, there, there is one of the ladders up, or there's one of the ladders someone else is sending down, so other people can maybe just have a chance to grab a foothold on something. And, yeah, that's been important to me for a long time, so would love to keep doing something like that. And you're right, that to me, me, that's the only path forward for, for getting new people into these spaces.

[Will Pearson]

Well, guys, thank you so much for coming on the show. Where can people find you other than giant bomb.com?

[Ed Zitron]

No, let's, let's hit giant bomb.com join if you want to become a member and support what we're doing.

[Dan Reichert]

Join.

[Ed Zitron]

Yeah, that's. We'll give you all the information there. But other than that, I'm grub WTF on Blue sky. And that's where I'm mostly posting these days.

[Jeff Bacalar]

Yep. I'm danrer.com on Blue Sky. Dan Reard on Instagram.

[Dan Reichert]

Instagram, yes. I am. Jeff Bacalar. Pretty much everywhere. And yeah, you know, like that's another good thing, right? Like we're, you know, we can kind of serve people wherever they are, right? So, like, it doesn't matter where you're looking for us. We don't have this kind of like shackle around us where we can only do a thing here or there. And, you know, it's a lot more accessible now, which is awesome.

[Will Pearson]

Thank you so much for joining me, guys. And thank you everyone for listening. You can find me@good google.com that's where I live. And you will now hear a message that I will never re record. It's going to be the same one from when I was a weird band that was unconfident in my podcasting ability. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Better Offline. The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song is Matt Osawski. You can check out more of his music and audio [e-mail] m a t t o s o w s k I dot com. You can email me at ezetteroffline.com or visit betteroffline.com to find more podcast links and of course, my newsletter. I also really recommend you go to chat where's your ed to visit the Discord and go to R betteroffline to check out our Reddit. Thank you so much for listening. Better Offline is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website coolzone media.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts.

[iHeart Media]

Or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Will Pearson]

Foreign.

[Colgate Total]

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[Ed Zitron]

In.

[Amy Robach]

A world of economic uncertainty and workplace transformation, learn to lead by example from visionary C Suite executives like Shannon Schuyler of PwC and Will Pearson of iHeartMedia.

[Ed Zitron]

The Good Teacher explains the great teacher inspires. Don't always leave your team to do the work that's been the most important.

[Dan Reichert]

Part of how to lead by example.

[Amy Robach]

Listen to Leading by Example executives making an impact on the iHeartRadio app, Apple.

[Ed Zitron]

Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Taser Incorporated]

I know a lot of cops. They get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes, yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. This is Absolute Season 1 Taser Incorporated.

[iHeart Media]

I get right back there and it's bad.

[Taser Incorporated]

Listen to Absolute Season 1 Taser incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Will Pearson]

Why is a soap opera Western like Yellowstone so wildly successful? The American west with Dan Flores is the latest show from the Meat Eater Podcast Network. So join me starting Tuesday, May 6, where we'll delve into stories of the west and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today.

[Ed Zitron]

Listen to the American west with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You're listening to an iHeart podcast.