Matt Rogers (2:21)

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Lisa Etochico (2:53)

Corezone Media.

Ed Zitron (2:57)

Enter the twisted mind of Ed Zitron. This is better offline.

Ed Zitron (3:10)

Better offline.

Ed Zitron (3:13)

That's right. We're here in New York City, New York State, and we've got a great guest, Lisa Etochico from cnn. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, Lisa. On this horrible wet day, truly, truly one of the ugliest days in New York history. But nevertheless, we're going to talk about consumer tech today. And everyone says, oh, Ed, you got to be nicer. You got to be like things more. But what's a gadget you've actually liked this year? Like, what's, what's some stuff you've been enjoying?

Lisa Etochico (3:37)

Yeah. And it's, it's kind of funny because I feel like when I think about gadgets, I think about them two ways. There's one, like the gadgets I would actually buy and that I actually use every day. And then two, the ones that are, I think, interesting for what they say about the industry or that have been fun to write about and fun to cover. And for the things that I have enjoyed using this year, I would say it's a lot of the things you'd expect. Like The Nintendo Switch 2 was a fun one this year. The new Apple Watch, because I'm a big Apple watch user, things like that. And then there's the other category of things that I think have been really fun to write about. And for that I would say the Galaxy XR definitely stands out.

Ed Zitron (4:18)

So what is the Galaxy? So that's the Vision Pro competitor, right?

Lisa Etochico (4:21)

Yes.

Ed Zitron (4:21)

So how comfortable is it?

Lisa Etochico (4:23)

Start there, I would say. I mean, none of these things are super comfortable, to be honest. It's still this thing that's bigger than a pair of glasses, bigger than something you're used to wearing on your face. So it's always going to be a little bit uncomfortable. I do think the Galaxy XR was, like, very easy to adjust and get to fit correctly for me. I feel like a lot of these headsets usually are a little too big for me or might like fall off my head or something.

Ed Zitron (4:49)

The Vision Pro, I have a giant bons. Giant, giant head. And that Thing. Trying to get that thing on was like balancing a cup of tea on my head.

Lisa Etochico (4:57)

Exactly. It's never that comfortable. It's kind of weird.

Ed Zitron (5:00)

Yeah.

Lisa Etochico (5:00)

I do feel like it was easy to adjust. It wasn't the most comfortable thing to wear, but I only. And I only wore it for like, maybe about 20 minutes at a time. So I do feel like wearing it for extended use cases. The kinds of things that Samsung and Google think you'll use it for, like productivity and entertainment. I think that's. I don't know how comfortable it would be to wear it for, like, you know, if I'm working on a project or watching a movie or something.

Ed Zitron (5:23)

So you wouldn't do, like, your actual work inside it?

Lisa Etochico (5:25)

I would try it. I think it would just take some time to get used to, you know, wearing that thing for like an hour or longer.

Ed Zitron (5:31)

Because as like a Vision Pro truther, and I think I mentioned this in person previously, but I can't use my Vision Pro right now. I can use it, but I can't update it unless you keep it on your head during the update, which is one of the most insane ideas ever. But I genuinely like that. When I was trying it, I was so torn because 85% of the time I fucking hated it. I really. I was just like, mad at it because, like, it would. Something would, like, my cat would brush my head and now it would be out of focus. But there were these times I would get in it and be like, this is actually really cool. I'm, like writing. I wrote a whole thing on it. Like it was back in the earlier days of the show. I was like, oh, I really like this. Got some music in the background. And then again, like Babu, my cat would knock me in the head. Cause he's very affectionate.

Lisa Etochico (6:17)

That's what cats do.

Ed Zitron (6:17)

No, he's a lovely, affectionate cat. Massive part of the show. And then I'd need to readjust it and then I would start to get headache. Did you find that the software was good on the Galaxy One? Like, how was it in comparison?

Lisa Etochico (6:30)

Yeah. So there's a couple of big things that stand out to me. I think the Gemini integration is really good, and it should be because that's the one thing that Google and Samsung are kind of pitching as setting this apart from the Vision Pro and previous attempts at mixed reality and VR. But the idea that you can just look at something, ask a question about it. Like in my demo from October, I was looking at photos in Google Photos and yes, it's cool that you can look at them on a giant screen and everything. But for me, what felt like the new thing that this is bringing to the table is being able to look at that photo and be like, oh, where in the world do those types of trees usually grow? And that combination of knowing what you're looking at without having to really specify. I do think the Vision Pro is better at certain things, like media, for example.

Ed Zitron (7:14)

Right.

Lisa Etochico (7:15)

I mean, some of the, like, spatial videos that have been created for the Vision Pro are just, like, breathtaking when you look at them. But I don't. I don't know that I would buy a Vision Pro for that reason, but it is very impressive.

Ed Zitron (7:26)

That's the thing. Like, even the. With both of them, they have the same problem where it's like, this is a cool idea. Like, oh, I know where that tree is now. Like, great. But it's, like, practically within my life. When am I sitting down, being like, when. Where's that tree from? Like, where is the. Where's the practical uses? And with the Vision Pro, it's like, great. I can put this on my head and walk around with it. I can kind of see, who is this for?

Lisa Etochico (7:51)

Yeah, I think that's the big question. And I feel like that's kind of, at least for me, when I try to look at, okay, what new products have been successful and did actually start a category and catch on with consumers and which ones haven't. And the thing that I've kind of noticed is the ones that haven't are when you really try to kind of force a user behavior that isn't there. And sometimes I feel like that's what's happening with these headsets is that the technology is very, very cool. It's very advanced, but it always feels like it's a step towards something more natural that we haven't gotten to yet. And you could say that about the Oculus Rift that came out more than 10 years ago, and in some cases, even the headsets today, I still feel that way about.

Ed Zitron (8:29)

And the Steam. Have you seen the Steam frame? We just had the valve.

Lisa Etochico (8:34)

I haven't tried it.

Ed Zitron (8:36)

I don't think. I don't. I think I just had Steve from Gamers Nexus on, and he tried it a bit, but it's. With all these things, it's like, I wish they'd have waited four years.

Lisa Etochico (8:45)

Yeah.

Ed Zitron (8:45)

I wish they'd have wait. Because there are those moments, like you mentioned with the spatial video where it's like, holy shit. Like, this is actually really cool. Like, I watched, like, a Basketball game on the Vision promo, I'm like, this is. This is actually.

Lisa Etochico (8:57)

It's hard until you try it, right? And that's the thing is I don't feel like that many people are going to have the opportunity to really try it at length, to work it into their lives. But yeah, the idea of like, oh my God, it really does feel like I'm sitting courtside right now. That's very cool.

Ed Zitron (9:09)

And the other thing is that even if it's just a big tv, that is cool. The problem is, is you can just sit down and watch a television. You just turn the bloody thing on. I have. I have this Nebula X1 projector which I fucking like. It's like anchor. It's so good soundcore now. And I just got like a nice screen. I pull up and that just even. That is like two or three minutes of diddling around. But I now have 100 inch screen in my apartment. That's so much less work than the Vision Pro because the Vision Pro is like constant maintenance. And I feel like if they waited, I don't know, it may. Casey Kagawa, friend of the show, he suggests that this will just never happen. I honestly don't necessarily know if I disagree with him on this one. But it's like, I really hope it does because if it was just something like maybe, I don't know, like a hat that just worked, that would be cool. But we're like, no, not even close, right?

Lisa Etochico (10:01)

Exactly. And I think that's kind of why a lot of these companies are kind of working towards these smart glasses instead. Because they are natural. They do feel like something you would wear whether there was tech in them or not. But again, I feel like convincing people that this is something that's actually gonna be more convenient might be difficult. Although, I don't know. I mean, people who wear glasses might say, hey, I need new glasses anyway. That looks cool. Maybe I'll try it.

Ed Zitron (10:26)

The thing is with the smart glasses is I just have to wonder about the social problem. Because I know if one of my friends, other than like Victoria Sung who came on wearing them, if someone was wearing them when I was like at a bar, I wouldn't want to look at them. I have to wonder how most people would feel about that.

Lisa Etochico (10:44)

I think there's. That. That's an important part. I also feel like the interaction element is gonna be weird socially because you're out. Let's say we're sitting here talking or we're at a cafe and we're talking about something. And I'M like, oh, let me go look that up on my phone. If instead I were to say I can just ask Gemini in my glasses.

Ed Zitron (11:02)

Or Meta, she's just staring.

Lisa Etochico (11:03)

Dead eye, right? Exactly.

Ed Zitron (11:05)

Well, Victoria's son from the Verge. It's like when you're looking, it is this weird kind of dead eye, this dead eyed stare because you're just. Your eye is staring at the corner. And I just wonder like, as cool as it is, what's the point of the smart glasses as well? Like, I can, I. I see the Vision Pro as a more and even the Galaxy One as a more fundamentally sound idea than the glasses. Because at some point it's like, okay, if I'm wearing glasses, like I need guidance where I'm going. I guess that's useful. But like, am I just putting this on versus okay, I'll put on a helmet and watch a sports game.

Lisa Etochico (11:42)

I think the way that I see glasses, if they do take off, the reason why I would almost think of them as like, kind of like the way you think of AirPods and wireless earbuds. Like something that's on you. You can use it to listen to music, to take calls as you're walking, and then it also has that optional display so that you can, you know, see where you're going or look at directions or whatever you might want to look at, like the time, whatever. So kind of like bridging together, like what you would use a smartwatch for and what you would use wireless earbuds for.

Ed Zitron (12:11)

Yeah, I see that. And I just wonder as well, will Apple even bother? Will Google even like actually if Google does it again, I have to respect them. After the whole Google Glass debacle.

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Ed Zitron (16:14)

Are they still around Google Glass? I want, I can't remember.

Lisa Etochico (16:17)

I don't know where the latest on Google Glass stands. I don't think they are. I know they kind of pivoted to enterprise.

Ed Zitron (16:23)

Yeah, that's why I wasn't, that's why I wasn't sure if they'd done away because I know Microsoft has basically killed hololens, but they have a very small enterprise division.

Lisa Etochico (16:32)

Yeah, I mean at this point with, I feel like, I don't know for sure, I can't speak for Google, but it would make sense for them to, I feel like focus more on Android XR and the future of that platform at this point.

Ed Zitron (16:43)

Well, for me taking a slight change, the one thing I will say is this is an unpopular opinion. They're going to have my ass for this one. I love the iPhone air and I heard that they're delaying the next one to like 2027. I'm very disappointed. I'm very upset by this. I love the iPhone air.

Lisa Etochico (16:58)

I do like it.

Ed Zitron (16:59)

Everyone's mad at me for it.

Lisa Etochico (17:00)

No, I think it's a good phone and for Apple I feel like they don't, you know, that's all they need is a good iPhone will buy it. Right. It doesn't have to reinvent the wheel every single time they come out with a new phone. I do think where Apple can struggle sometimes is when you have these in between models that are like not too different in price from whatever the cheapest iPhone and the most expensive iPhone is like for, for whatever reason. This is just again my own observation, Apple's audience has a hard time latching on to like whatever that like in between model is. Whether it's the plus or the Mini or the air. It seems like it's hard for them to generate demand.

Ed Zitron (17:35)

It does kind of feel like a weird if I wonder, I hope because the whole thing, it feels like I didn't think of it as an in between as well because you're Right. It feels like they would naturally try and make the main ones this thin because that's the whole reason I like it. It feels like a smaller. Feels like an in between. Between an iPad mini and an iPad. But I love. I love the iPad Pro. I love having a very thin device and every phone's getting fatter. It feels like. I don't know.

Lisa Etochico (18:00)

Yeah. And I think we're at that point also where people aren't super wowed by how thin technology can get because we've been there for a while. So I don't think this premise of an iPhone air really hit the same way the iPad air did, the way the MacBook Air did. And I think it's just kind of for that reason that we're desensitized to it. And I think Apple shoppers tend to fall into two categories. Either I've had an iPhone for years, and I'm not even thinking about what phone I have. I'm just going to get the next iPhone whenever my current one dies. And then you have the people that do get excited about new iPhones, and those people do care about things like maybe not having an extra camera or, you know, the best battery life or whatever.

Ed Zitron (18:41)

It's also. The camera's pretty bad. It's. I. I've gotten around it, but, like, it sucks.

Lisa Etochico (18:46)

Yeah, it's. I mean, like, I'm not. I'm the person that takes casual photos all the time, and I think the camera's fine.

Ed Zitron (18:52)

Yeah.

Lisa Etochico (18:53)

I haven't been blown away by it in my own just, you know, usage here and there.

Ed Zitron (18:57)

It does feel like we're approaching peak phone, though.

Sophie Cunningham (18:59)

Oh.

Lisa Etochico (19:00)

I feel like we've been there for a while.

Ed Zitron (19:01)

Like the iPhone 17 Pro, Max, whatever. It's just. It's the same phone.

Lisa Etochico (19:07)

Exactly. I feel like we've been at peak phone for a while, and I do feel like that's part of what Apple's trying to do here with the iPhone air is show that it can make something that's different, that's unexpected. That's not just the same phone repackaged.

Ed Zitron (19:19)

And then people hated it. So now. Now that now they don't know what to do.

Lisa Etochico (19:23)

I do feel like, and this is a common argument, but I do feel like it's a step towards a foldable iPhone, at least in my opinion. That's what I want because the technology needs to be. They need to engineer the phone differently for it to be foldable. It's not just about the crease and all that, but you have to think about the battery, the components and that like engineering wise, that was a big step forward with the iPhone.

Sophie Cunningham (19:42)

Air.

Ed Zitron (19:43)

I have to wonder as well if you. The reason they have jumped on the foldables is they're still very experimental. Jerry rigs everything. There was someone who did a review of a foldable and they made it like one of the Google ones that set on fire. And just from like bending it too much, it's like if we're still there, Apple doesn't want to touch this with a 50 foot pole.

Lisa Etochico (20:03)

Yeah, I feel like foldables have gotten really good. I feel like Samsungs in particular, like because they have been doing this for so long, it's finally gotten to the point where the fold feels like a regular phone.

Ed Zitron (20:14)

Yeah.

Lisa Etochico (20:14)

And that's really cool. But I do feel like it's still a subset of the phone market. Most people just want a new phone. But I agree. I feel like the minute that there is a foldable iPhone, I'm gonna buy one. Mostly out of curiosity, but also because I really do enjoy using foldable phones and it does make the experience feel a little different. And this like the iPhone air to me, as soon as I picked it up, I was like, this just feels like a Z flip that doesn't fold in half. Like. Yeah, like the shade.

Ed Zitron (20:40)

That's the Motorola one. Oh no, Galaxy.

Lisa Etochico (20:42)

Yeah, that's the Galaxy flip phone one. And then of course Motorola has one as well.

Ed Zitron (20:46)

Yeah, I know Michael Fisher, Mr. Mobile himself, loves those things. And there's like the trifold ones as well. I love these crazy Chinese phones where it's like three giant things that you unfold. Probably breaks very.

Lisa Etochico (20:59)

Samsung just announced theirs like last night too. Yeah.

Ed Zitron (21:02)

Yes. I want more weird phones.

Lisa Etochico (21:04)

Me too. I want phones to be weird again. I had a Microsoft Kin back in the day.

Ed Zitron (21:09)

Remind me of.

Lisa Etochico (21:09)

I had the Samsung Juke. I had all these weird phones.

Ed Zitron (21:11)

Tell me about all. What is the Microsoft Kin? I remember the name, but I don't remember what it was.

Lisa Etochico (21:16)

So this was. And this was like way before I was writing about phones. I was just like, this thing's weird. I want was their social media phone.

Ed Zitron (21:23)

Oh my God.

Lisa Etochico (21:23)

Yeah. Oh, so like your front screen picture.

Ed Zitron (21:27)

Now I gotta look at this.

Lisa Etochico (21:28)

Yes. That was like peak weird phone. It like had this cover screen that would look like your Facebook feed and then you would open it up and there would be a keyboard on the inside. I had the second generation one, so that one looked a little bit more like.

Ed Zitron (21:39)

So the one that looks like an egg.

Lisa Etochico (21:41)

No, not the Egg one. The other one. Yeah, that first one.

Ed Zitron (21:43)

Yeah. So they had one. One that looked like a Palm Pre, it looks like, and then one that kind of looked like a normal phone. 2010 as well.

Lisa Etochico (21:52)

Yeah.

Ed Zitron (21:53)

What a classic 2010 decision.

Lisa Etochico (21:56)

Exactly. I loved it. I thought it was so cool, but it was so glitchy. And that's why I ended up getting rid of it was that, like, the operating system just crashed one day and I just couldn't use it anymore. And this was before I really knew how to, like, troubleshoot things and before I was really even interested in technology and I just got it. I think at that point I finally switched to a smartphone. But, yeah, I mean, phones were weird back then, and it was really cool, and I kind of missed that. But I feel like foldable phones, to your point, are filling that void. Because if you look at the common thread between weird phones is that they're all trying to be some kind of, like, hybrid device.

Ed Zitron (22:30)

Yeah.

Lisa Etochico (22:31)

Like, those phones of the 2010s were like, oh, you still kind of want to use your keyboard, but you also want something that feels like a smartphone. And, you know, my favorite was.

Ed Zitron (22:39)

So I definitely. The Black Storm. I don't know if you remember that as far as. There was that weird generation when everyone was just trying something weird, and there was this horrible, horrible BlackBerry where it was, like, haptic, but it just felt like pressing into fudge. So cool. But I just looked this up. Samsung Juke. What the. Look like a keyring?

Lisa Etochico (23:02)

Yeah. It was supposed to be like a MP3 player slash phone. It was weird, but also it came out at the point where you could already store your music on a regular phone, but I don't know. Thought it was cool and weird and it was so tiny. Yeah, it was so tiny.

Ed Zitron (23:16)

I kind of love how small it is. It looks like a chocolate bar.

Lisa Etochico (23:19)

Yeah. Yeah.

Ed Zitron (23:20)

It, like, swings open. I. I miss when we were doing weird shit with Me too. There was that weird. There were just everyone.

Lisa Etochico (23:27)

Everything just looks like this now.

Ed Zitron (23:29)

Yeah. Everything's a brick.

Lisa Etochico (23:30)

Yes.

Ed Zitron (23:31)

And it's a shame. It feels like everything is just kind of normalizing around it when we need more weird shit. But I guess, no, we've now seen what happens when you actually. No, the iPhone. Air wasn't weird enough. That's the problem.

Lisa Etochico (23:41)

Exactly. I think that that's. You know, when I talk about those, like, in between phones. And I think the. What makes it hard to kind of really create a lot of demand for those phones is that they're not different enough. They're just in between, and they're not that different in price. And I think that's, you know, a big part of what can make it difficult to kind of sell somebody on that. It's not that much less expensive than the Pro, but it's thinner, so, like, do you.

Ed Zitron (24:05)

And also, they're still like, $1,000, right? These are not cheap.

Lisa Etochico (24:09)

No, not at all. No. It's meant to be like a Pro that's thinner, I think. Except, you know, hardware is different, obviously.

Ed Zitron (24:15)

And it's pretty fast. I like it a lot. It's just. I'm annoyed because the camera is. It's just shit enough. It's not that it's bad. It's like, just a little bit worse. Like, it can't really zoom. You have digital zoom.

Lisa Etochico (24:27)

Yeah, it doesn't have a lot of zoom. Even digitally, it doesn't zoom in that far. Yeah.

Ed Zitron (24:30)

It's weird how little has happened with Apple in the last year as well, because they tried the Vision Pro, and then they just. When.

Lisa Etochico (24:37)

Yeah. I don't know. I feel like the Vision Pro is one of those things that it's going to. I don't know. I feel like people were expecting it for a long time. The expectations were really high. And I think for Apple, they're especially high because they have this history of creating, not necessarily being the first, but being the first to get people excited about a new category.

Ed Zitron (24:59)

Yeah, yeah.

Lisa Etochico (24:59)

And, like, show how this should be done, like, with the smartwatch. Like, the Apple watch was not the first smartwatch by any means, but it was the first one that got kind of popular, or popular enough at least.

Ed Zitron (25:08)

And they were smart enough to treat it as a fashion item, which.

Lisa Etochico (25:12)

Although that's not what it is at all now. And it's so funny to see how that's not that they don't buy it. Do you remember the launch, though? Yes.

Ed Zitron (25:17)

The launch was like a vanity Vogue spread, and they were really. There was a $10,000 Omaze one.

Lisa Etochico (25:23)

Yes. Oh, my God.

Ed Zitron (25:25)

I remember that. I love that they tried that and then just walked away, just like, yeah, that's a sports thing now.

Lisa Etochico (25:30)

And that's the thing is, like, when you create a new category, it's really hard to predict what people are actually gonna use it for or. Or what they're going to gravitate towards.

Ed Zitron (25:39)

I think they were doing it just for the marketing. I think it was literally just to get people to write about it in a day.

Lisa Etochico (25:43)

But also, smart watches were so ugly back then. That's the other thing. Is that the reason why the ones.

Ed Zitron (25:48)

There was like a dad?

Lisa Etochico (25:50)

There was the pebble which I loved so much. Honestly, it looked. Yes, they are back. You know the original Pebble Watch didn't look like anything special, but it was.

Ed Zitron (26:00)

Like the ink as well was the same.

Lisa Etochico (26:02)

Yeah, I love it was like funky and weird. It was like had a monochrome display and I just loved. And it's funny because I'm not usually this person like that cares about customizing things, but you could customize the watch face to be like literally anything you want and talk about like weird gadgets. Like I feel like that was also like not weird but they had such a fun community around it that would develop all these custom watch faces and things like that. And it was just really it was a cool little device.

Matt Rogers (26:39)

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Sophie Cunningham (27:40)

Is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea or OSA in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snore loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at. Don't sleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company.

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Questlove (28:51)

Hey, audiobook lovers. This week on the podcast I'm sitting down with musician, producer and walking encyclopedia Questlove. We're talking about Mark Ronson's memoir, Night.

Ed Zitron (29:01)

How to be a DJ in 90s New York City.

Questlove (29:05)

All right, like we talked about before, Mark Ronson found sanctuary in the the DJ booth. What's a tool or piece of equipment in the studio or on stage that gives you the most control?

Ed Zitron (29:14)

So I have two microphones on stage. We have the microphone that you hear as the audience. Then we have a second microphone in which we communicate with each other. I feel like that second microphone kind of saved all of our friendships. No band likes each other after 20 years or 25 years. The Beatles broke up in seven and a half years, and we're going on 35.

Questlove (29:38)

Listen to HearSay, the Audible, and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Ed Zitron (29:54)

I feel like that era was great. I realized there was a lot of fraud on Indiegogo and Kickstarter, but there was also just weird shit. And now that's all in China. Yeah, it's just gp. You play with any GPD stuff? You ever seen them? No, they just make gaming PCs, but the handhelds, and they all cost. They have one. It's cool. But it's also. You're like, you wacky sons of bitch. They doing a handheld one where you have an external battery and it's just like, sure, why not?

Lisa Etochico (30:20)

It's like, at that point, why not?

Ed Zitron (30:21)

And they always make $4 million on Kickstarter. I hope all of that money's not from criminal enterprises. I'm not suggesting it is, but every time. But it's just. I wish that there was. I. I'm sure that there are economic reasons for sure. Someone will shoot me an email about this. I wish we had more American firms willing to try shit because it's dull right now. It's boring out.

Lisa Etochico (30:42)

Yeah, it's. Things have looked the same for a long time. And you had like a brief moment in like the mid 2010s, like 2016, 2017, when Alexa was just starting to become really popular, and then everyone thought the smart home was going to take off in a way that it never did.

Questlove (30:57)

Wow.

Ed Zitron (30:58)

Yeah, that.

Lisa Etochico (30:58)

But I'm thinking about like these different phases of like everyone's like, oh, this is going to be the next big thing after phones. And like we still have not reached that moment.

Ed Zitron (31:05)

We don't have any. I mean, to the point of everything being the same as well. It's like you buy a, you buy a Google device, it's got Gemini on it, you buy an Apple device, it's got Apple intelligence, you immediately turn it off. It's just everything kind of feels and looks the same. And you watch a commercial, it's just more fucking Gemini. I don't know if you use Gemini. I still don't know why Gemini 3 is caused so much. It's the same.

Lisa Etochico (31:30)

Yeah, I mean it's like a. Sure. It's like a better version of the same. I've used it here and there. You know, I don't, I use AI a lot in like my like personal life or whatever just to get things done. But it's not like I don't think we're at the point yet where, at least in my personal usage, I don't see that much of a difference between Chat, GPT and Gemini in terms of what I use them for. And I think it's. That's one interesting thing I feel like about AI compared to a lot of the other products in our lives. Like when you have a phone or a computer, you're like, okay, I'm a Mac or a PC person, I'm iOS or Android. I feel like with AI people do use different models for different things. I don't feel like people are loyal to just one all the time.

Ed Zitron (32:10)

I also think that it's the, you know how I feel about AI, but it's also. It's not clear what makes one different from the other. Like with a. I. I guess that's the case with phones as well. Except phones don't just burn money every time you turn them on. But it's, it's strange because this Gemini thing is really taken off the stock market. You got people writing, you wrote this piece about like Google. Google is the new leader in AI. No, it's good, but it's just like why? And I think it comes down to they mostly do the same. It makes me think people gonna love this. I think that like the only company that will even do LLMs long term is Google. And then they'll just make it, they'll pull back the prices, but it's like no one can really explain what the difference is. And thus no one actually has any brand power.

Lisa Etochico (32:54)

Yeah, I think for Google, it's an extension of like their business model, naturally. Like, people use Google search to find information and do things, and now people have started using LLMs for that. So of course it makes sense for them to do that. And they have an advantage in that sense. I think Google has that advantage. Right. That you have. All these people that don't even know about AI are just going to naturally start using their product because it's Gemini. And their models are now baked into almost everything AI does. Right. AI mode, everything else. You know, OpenAI. I think their advantage has been that they were, you know, ChatGPT kind of became a household name pretty quickly. So it's hard to kind of, once any brand has that kind of like, has made that kind of impression, I feel like it's hard to compete with that. Or, you know, I feel like that's why you see so much consolidation in the tech industry in particular, is because it's really hard to be that third. Right. You have like one or two that are really big, and then being that third is. Is really challenging.

Ed Zitron (33:53)

It's also, there's little. I feel like there's not really much reward for being first with this as well, or even being the household name. Just burn a bunch of money. There was a story in the information that came out this week who this will run now, a week after that, but where it's like OpenAI's own code red because of Gemini, it's like. And you read the article, it's really funny because there's a bit where it's just like, step one, make ChatGPT's answers better. Step two, make it able to do more. Step three, make people like it. It's like, what have you been doing? What have you been doing the last six months? Honestly, that may be what Gemini 3 is. It's just that they said I went, what would make people use this more?

Lisa Etochico (34:32)

Well, what's interesting is like, you have kind of the opposite. Like, OpenAI and Google are in the opposite scenarios. They're like the inverse of each other. Like, Google is already playing in so many different areas, from search to phones to all these other products that shopping. Right. All of these things that we do every day online. And because they have that in place already, they can just kind of sprinkle AI into things as they go along. OpenAI had the opposite where they had this one, like, breakout AI service. And now they're kind of in this mode where they're like, hey, we're not just this one thing. We're the next big Internet company. Right. That's kind of what they're projecting based on all of these areas that they're trying to expand into. So I think it's kind of interesting. Back years ago, the New York Times had that piece where Google was saying were in a code.

Ed Zitron (35:19)

Yes, yes, Cpt.

Lisa Etochico (35:20)

And now OpenAI, according to that article, is, you know, facing that moment of its own.

Ed Zitron (35:26)

I just. I also think that no one knows what to do with large language, but I just don't. I think at this point, so much money's gone in and you can't get a straight answer about out of any of them as to why you're using them. Like.

Lisa Etochico (35:36)

Yeah.

Ed Zitron (35:36)

In your personal life, I imagine brainstorming stuff or like looking stuff up. Like.

Lisa Etochico (35:40)

Right. Like stuff that I would probably use Google for otherwise. Yeah.

Ed Zitron (35:44)

And it's like if this ends with just Google manages to pull in the customers that open I had and then ends up probably making it putting some of this away because it's too expensive. It's just like. Of course, if this is. That actually is probably how it ends. Just like a large company destroying a startup and nothing happening. I hope so. I. The sooner the better. I mean, it's. It is three years and we've not really had a proper use case beyond better search. It's strange. It's everywhere.

Lisa Etochico (36:14)

Yeah, I would agree in that. Like, I do think it's moving fast in terms of, like, it started out, you know, the shift from just being able to answer simple questions to being able to, like, reason and whatever and think on these questions more. But to your point, that's not the use case, that's the technology.

Ed Zitron (36:33)

It's also just changing. It's also just more search. Like, it really is just knowledge search on instead of web search.

Lisa Etochico (36:40)

Right.

Ed Zitron (36:41)

And sometimes it gets it.

Lisa Etochico (36:42)

Well, I'm sure. I'm sure you've heard this term more times than you would like. I even hate saying it because I feel like it's become such a nonsense buzzword. You could probably guess what I'm gonna say, but AI agents are supposedly gonna be the next step of whatever this AI strategy.

Ed Zitron (36:58)

I love this. Well, it's funny, when you go and look at the term agent, it just means like chatbot. It really does just mean chatbot go back to. Or even you go back to 2023. That's how OpenAI defined it. Yeah, but I loved, I saw this statistics just like 11% was AI agents. It's like, no, it wasn't. If you're just considering AI search, then that's agents. That's just search engines. And I keep reading about these shopping integrations as well, but I can never make them work because I go and try. I go and try. The Walmart one didn't work. I managed to make it do something in Canva, right? But it's like, I could have just done that in Canva, right?

Lisa Etochico (37:33)

And that's the thing that's. I think, for me, where a lot of the skepticism comes in is that I feel like we've been talking about these agents for years. To your point, since ChatGPT came out, they're like, this is what it's gonna.

Ed Zitron (37:43)

These things are gonna go and do stuff, right?

Lisa Etochico (37:45)

These things are gonna do stuff for you. And I do think that could be really helpful, honestly. But I also have a lot of skepticism and concerns about, like, I don't know, handing over anything that I remotely care about being done the right way to an AI agent. Like, I. I'm skeptical that people are gonna trust it enough to handle things.

Ed Zitron (38:03)

Well, it's also. It doesn't seem to be able to do it is my big thing. But even when you looked at like the AI browsers from like, yeah, what was it? Comet from Perplexity and Atlas from OpenAI or whatever, when you look, there's like this thing of the prompt injection attacks. I don't know if you've seen this.

Lisa Etochico (38:17)

Yes, I've seen a website where they could just get.

Ed Zitron (38:19)

With just the website. If you use them on a website, the website could attack you. What I love, though, is the people who are innovating appear to just be criminals. The people who are, like, actually finding AI innovations are like Cambodian pig butchering operations. North Korea. I was North Korea. I heard this story the other day from a mate where it's North Korean people are using like, in like hacker groups, are applying to and getting American jobs.

Lisa Etochico (38:48)

Oh, really?

Ed Zitron (38:49)

And using deep, deep fakes for the know your customer stuff. And like, it's really fucking grim. It's just like. No, everything I read is just like, man, there is innovation crime. Well, actually, Robert Evans of Cool zone, Major in 2024 said that was the actual innovation. Walk into a restaurant, you say, no, that's where it is. It's like fraud, massive fraud.

Lisa Etochico (39:10)

No, I mean, and I feel like anytime you have a new technology, the bad guys always find A way to make use of it before, you know, faster than the good guys.

Ed Zitron (39:20)

They are the only ones they're making. I will say North Korean hacker groups, I'm pretty sure are making more profit than OpenAI, which is cool. I think that that's cool. I think that that's the world we deserve, honestly. And I think that's where we're heading towards. Because when you create a technology that you're not really sure what it does, of course somebody malign is going to use it to your own point, right? It's like, of course they're going to find a way around it. All right, as we wrap up, is there anything you're actually looking forward to in the tech industry, though? Is there anything you're. Anything on the. On the horizon? It's okay if there isn't.

Lisa Etochico (39:53)

Honestly, there isn't really just one thing right now. I feel like, you know, all of this AI stuff is a little dizzying and there's a lot of skepticism about it. But I will say, as someone who's been covering this industry for like a little more than 10 years and a lot of that just being the same, I feel like it's been fun to write about something that does feel new. Whether for better or for worse, it is something that feels new and different. What am I looking forward to? I want weird phones again. That's what I'm looking forward to. I hope that phones get weird again.

Ed Zitron (40:21)

I want. I want things with hand cranks on them. I mean, that's the Playdate console, but I mean, even The Nintendo Switch 2 was kind of safe. It's good. I like it a lot.

Lisa Etochico (40:32)

But it's weird for Nintendo to do that. I feel like. Like doing after the Wii U. I loved it. No, I have like almost every Nintendo console, but yeah, I feel like coming out with more of the same. Is not usually in their playbook, but the Switch was so successful that they kind of had to people. Could you imagine if the Switch 2 was entirely different and wasn't a better version of the same console? I feel like.

Ed Zitron (40:55)

I do wonder if we're gonna get a pushback on this eventually though. If people are just going to. We need some weird shit again. That's. That's what I. The energy I'm putting into the universe today.

Lisa Etochico (41:04)

Yes, me too.

Ed Zitron (41:05)

So where can people find you?

Lisa Etochico (41:06)

You can find me on. I'm on X Blue sky and Threads at Lisa at Achico. And you can also find my work, of course, @cnn.com wonderful.

Ed Zitron (41:15)

And you can find me@better offline.com subscribe to the newsletter. Email me on my web verse. Thank you for listening Love.

Ed Zitron (41:30)

Thank you for listening to Better Offline. The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song is Matt Osawski. You can check out more of his music and audio projects@matasowski.com M A T T O S O W S K I dot com youm can email me at ezetteroffline.com or visit betteroffline.com to find more podcast links and of course my newsletter. I also really recommend you go to Chat wizyoured app to visit the Discord and go to r betteroffline to check out our Reddit. Thank you so much for listening.

Podcast Announcer (42:03)

Better Offline is a production of coolzone Media.

Ed Zitron (42:05)

For more from Cool Zone Media, Visit.

Lisa Etochico (42:07)

Our website coolzonemedia.com or check us out.

Podcast Announcer (42:10)

On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

Sophie Cunningham (42:36)

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA, in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at. Don't sleep on osa.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company.

Questlove (43:15)

This podcast is brought to you by FedEx. The new power Move hey, you know those people in your office who are always pulling old school corporate power moves? Like the guy who weaponizes eye contact. He's confident, he's engaged. He's often creepy. It's an old school power move. But this alpha dog laser gaze won't keep your supply chain moving across borders. The real power move? Having a smart platform that keeps up with the changing trade landscape. That's why smart businesses partner with FedEx and use the power of digital intelligence to navigate around supply chain issues before they happen. Set your sights on something that will actually improve your business. FedEx the new power Move hey, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. You know one of the perks about having four kids that you know about is actually getting a direct line to the big man up north. And this year he wants you to know the best gift that you can give someone is the gift of Mint Mobile's unlimited wireless for $15 a month. Now you don't even need to wrap it. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment.

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Lisa Etochico (44:29)

Busy, taxes and fees extra.

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