Better Offline – Episode Summary

Episode Title: The State of the Games Industry with Nathan Grayson
Host: Ed Zitron
Guest: Nathan Grayson (Co-founder, Aftermath)
Date: December 5, 2025
Podcast: Better Offline by Cool Zone Media and iHeartPodcasts

Episode Overview

This episode of Better Offline dives into the turbulent present and uncertain future of the video game industry, with a special focus on labor, digital culture, and the impact of tech and capitalism on both game development and its communities. Ed Zitron interviews Nathan Grayson, co-founder of the worker-owned games publication Aftermath, for a candid discussion about Aftermath’s evolution, the intertwining of politics and gaming, the state of labor, and the existential challenges facing games as both an art form and an industry.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Aftermath’s Journey and Relaunch

• Learning Curve of Independent, Worker-Owned Journalism

  • Nathan discusses how moving from big publishers to running a worker-owned cooperative meant learning the ins and outs of business administration, promotion, and sustainability.
  • “We entered it as five people who wrote for a living, who never really had much experience with the business side of things… now we have to do all of that ourselves.” – Nathan Grayson [03:31]

• Website Migration to Ghost & Growth

  • Aftermath relaunched on the Ghost platform for more design flexibility and subscription management.
  • Expanding with freelancers and regular contributors, aiming for long-term growth.

2. Aftermath’s Editorial Approach: Politics, Labor, and the Culture of Games

• Distinctive Coverage:

  • Aftermath covers games with a broad, culturally critical perspective, akin to how Defector covers sports.
  • “We wanted to cover games in the way that Defector covers sports… games are relevant to many different areas as well.” – Nathan Grayson [06:25]

• Politics Inherent in Games:

  • Rejects the notion that games “shouldn’t be political.”
  • Increased relevance of gaming in mainstream politics (e.g., presidential candidates courting gaming influencers).

• Labor Reporting as a Core Pillar:

  • Games industry labor is often overlooked; Aftermath emphasizes worker perspectives and unionization efforts.
  • “People see game development as this ivory tower job versus a pretty brutal working stiff job at times. And then even more so in things like QA.” – Ed Zitron [17:41]
  • “QA is like a relationship… they get the broadest overview of what a game is like to play in its totality.” – Nathan Grayson [18:48]

3. Culture Wars, Harassment, and the Enduring Gamergate Legacy

• Weaponization of Gamer Identity:

  • Rise of harassment mobs, especially targeting women and marginalized developers.
  • “Gamergate was the canary in the coal mine for a lot of the modern alt-right.” – Nathan Grayson [10:25]

• Recent Example – Sucker Punch Employee Firing:

  • Aftermath covered a situation where an employee was fired for a joke about Charlie Kirk, which turned into an issue of mob harassment and corp inaction.
  • “As long as the games industry continues to let that happen... these mobs will dictate the pace of conversation around games.” – Nathan Grayson [08:20]

• Failure to Target Real Industry Villains:

  • “I wish they would get angry at the real villains, which is Electronic Arts and the like… Instead, these harassment campaigns are not about video games, but just aggression against women, against any outliers.” – Ed Zitron [11:29]

4. The State of the Industry: Capitalism, Business Models, and Labor

• Monetization and Worker Exploitation:

  • Chronic brokenness in franchise sports games, increasing monetization, and mass layoffs.
  • Games could theoretically be a site of resistance to capitalist excesses, but “they’ve been misled by various forces, including those in charge.” – Nathan Grayson [13:00]

• Collapse of AAA and Indie Myths:

  • Mass layoffs are sweeping AAA (Microsoft, EA, Ubisoft, Sony, etc.), but indie studios face their own funding crises.
  • “A lot of indie games are not just a few people in a garage… these can have 30, 40, even 100 people working on them and they all require paychecks.” – Nathan Grayson [21:17]

5. Industry Technology and Hardware

• Steam Machine Revival:

  • Valve's improved approach vs. Microsoft’s ecosystem scattershot.
  • “PC is… for a lot of normal people, kind of impenetrable from a gaming standpoint. What Valve is basically saying [with Steam Machines] is: okay, we will handle all that for you.” – Nathan Grayson [25:15]

• User Experience – Valve vs. Microsoft:

  • Steam Deck/Steam OS praised for plug-and-play ease, while Microsoft’s Xbox and handheld initiatives are hindered by confusing layers and lack of focus.
  • “Every time I load it up, it feels like I’m on the fucking Las Vegas strip.” – Ed Zitron [34:31]
  • “If that is the way you are thinking and approaching… you will always be at least in second place, if not third. And Microsoft has always been in third in the gaming space.” – Nathan Grayson [37:14]

• Game Pass Critique:

  • Skepticism toward subscription-based models (Game Pass), questioning their sustainability and effect on creators.
  • “I don’t think Game Pass is good for the games industry… streaming services create a race to the bottom.” – Ed Zitron [28:33]
  • “They just are slowly and shitifying everything… to make up for the fact that this gamble is not paying off.” – Nathan Grayson [39:15]

6. Positive Notes & Personal Recommendations

• Games Enjoyed in 2025:

  • Hades II: Praised for its addictive gameplay loop, even if the narrative isn’t as strong as the original.
    • “Every time you finish a run, you’re like ‘well, I could do one more’ and suddenly 45 minutes have disappeared.” – Nathan Grayson [42:39]
  • Eternal Strand: Noted as an innovative indie blending Monster Hunter and Dragon’s Dogma elements.
    • “It’s just really cool… gigantic enemies, destructible environments, and such.” – Nathan Grayson [43:16]

• Celebration of Supergiant’s Workplace Culture:

  • “Supergiant is really well run… they have things like mandatory vacation… if you don’t take your vacation, you have to just take time off.” – Nathan Grayson [45:25]
  • Importance of workers’ well-being and its visible impact on game quality.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Gamergate was the canary in the coal mine for a lot of the modern alt-right.”
  — Nathan Grayson [10:25]

• “I wish they would get angry at the real villains, which is Electronic Arts and the like…”
  — Ed Zitron [11:29]

• “You would think that games would be this hotbed for resistance to the ravages of capitalism… but again, they’ve been misled by various forces.”
  — Nathan Grayson [13:00]

• “Steam Deck is an incredible piece of hardware… you can just install a game on it, and it works.”
  — Nathan Grayson [25:15]

• “Every time I load it up, it feels like I’m on the fucking Las Vegas strip.”
  — Ed Zitron (on the current Xbox experience) [34:31]

• “Supergiant has mandatory vacation… let people have their free time and their space.”
  — Nathan Grayson [45:25]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:07] – Nathan Grayson on launching Aftermath and learning business operations
• [06:25] – Aftermath’s editorial focus: games and politics
• [08:20] – Covering harassment campaigns in the games industry
• [10:25] – The legacy of Gamergate and the alt-right
• [17:41] – Labor coverage in games and the reality of developer livelihoods
• [18:48] – Role of QA and the pitfalls of automating it with AI
• [21:17] – Collapse of AAA studios and struggles for indies
• [25:15] – Steam Machine’s second act: hardware, accessibility, and ecosystem
• [28:33] – Critiquing Game Pass and subscription models
• [34:31] – Ed’s rant about the messiness of modern Xbox UI
• [42:34] – Personal favorite games of the year: Hades II and Eternal Strand
• [45:25] – Supergiant’s positive workplace practices

Closing Thoughts

This episode offers both a broad and granular look at how the games industry sits at the crossroads of technology, labor, and culture—torn between wild corporate profit strategies and the lived reality of both players and workers. By spotlighting Aftermath’s journey, broader labor issues, the impacts of toxic internet culture, and new technological frontiers, Ed and Nathan provide an essential snapshot of where gaming stands—and where it needs to fight to go.

“Ultimately, when it comes to art, commercial art especially, that's what you want… you want people to get paid, but you also want them to enjoy themselves. If we're going to be locked into jobs for our whole lives, then we may as well enjoy the process.”
— Nathan Grayson [45:55]

For more, check out Aftermath’s recent labor reporting and subscribe for independent, politically engaged games coverage.