Garrett Devink (3:30)

I mean, it's such a great question and one that I've kind of become more and more fascinated with, because I think we all know what we use ChatGPT for. You know, at least if you do use it. And I think you may know what, you know, your peers, your colleagues, your friends, your family use ChatGPT for. But I think a lot of people are extrapolating that. You know, everyone's like me. They ask really smart questions. They're using it for, you know, really important work. And really, it's a lot broader than that.

Jacob Goldstein (4:02)

And.

Garrett Devink (4:02)

And despite these giant numbers, you know, OpenAI loves to talk about how 800 million people are using ChatGPT. I mean, it's. It's been hard to really put our arms around, you know, what does that actually look like? I mean, is everyone using it for work? Is everyone using it for therapy? Is everyone. Does everyone have an AI girlfriend? Is everyone just using it for searching the web, a Google replacement? And obviously, these things are all. When you have 800 million people, you have all of the above. But I think our data set and the story we did, in my view, was one of the first real sort of qualitative moments where we were actually able to see real chats. Right, right.

Ed Zitron (Host) (4:46)

And where did you get the chats from?

Garrett Devink (4:48)

Yeah, so it's kind of an interesting situation, I think. Something that also shows, says a little bit about how quickly and kind of, honestly, a little bit ramshackle OpenAI has kind of been growing and operating. And so earlier this year, these chats sort of showed up because OpenAI had a share feature where you could actually share one of your ChatGPT conversations. And you can imagine maybe you had ChatGPT, said something really weird you wanted to show a friend.

Ed Zitron (Host) (5:16)

I've seen people do this quite A.

Garrett Devink (5:17)

Few times, yeah, exactly. And so what they did is they had a feature where you could actually click to make it publicly available. And I think thousands of people maybe who did not have this sort of Internet literacy didn't really know that that's what was going to happen. And these chats showed up online, they were then indexed by Google and then they actually found their way onto the Internet Archive. And so that's how we got them. And so these are not chats that we created. You know, this is something a lot of journalists and researchers do. Well, they will GO and test ChatGPT themselves. These are real life conversations that, that real people actually had with.

Ed Zitron (Host) (5:57)

But they were anonymized, just to be clear. Right?

Garrett Devink (5:59)

They were anonymized. The data set doesn't actually have anyone's names. Although in some of the chats, people did, you know, say their name. They said the name of their, their family members. We did not include any of that in our story. But I do think, you know, it is actually a bit of a cybersecurity story here. And, you know, OpenAI has changed the feature. It's not something that is still. But I do think they deserve a lot of criticism for allowing this to happen in the first place.

Ed Zitron (Host) (6:26)

So what did you find people were doing?

Garrett Devink (6:28)

Yeah, I mean, people were doing all sorts of things. But I think the biggest thing that struck me was we've been talking about AI psychosis, we've been talking about people developing relationships, having first person conversations with these chatbots over the last six months to a year. And I always kind of thought, sure, this is happening, but it's a small percentage of people went through these chats. And again, I did not read all 40,000 of them, but I read a few hundred myself where I went through. I was surprised by how often these kinds of conversations came up where people were clearly delusional, they were engaged in conspiratorial thinking. Some of it was fairly harmless. People were just kind of saying, oh, I came up with a new form of math. Or I think that the way that the light hits the equator at a certain point, percentage mean, you know, it was like very kind of the Monsters.

Ed Zitron (Host) (7:25)

Inc. Thing as well, where it was someone saying the relation like the Monsters Inc. Led to the corporate new world order. That was.

Garrett Devink (7:32)

Yeah, exactly. I mean, there was one person who said, you know, they were asking questions about Google and they said, you know, tell me about Google in relation to Monsters Inc. And the world order. And the ChatGPT just kind of went off and said, oh, yeah, you're really onto something here. Yeah, I think it actually said, you know, f. Yeah. And they sort of censored themselves.

Ed Zitron (Host) (7:56)

Oh, we're going there now. Let's fucking go.

Garrett Devink (7:58)

Exactly.

Ed Zitron (Host) (7:59)

Let's line up the pieces and expose what this children's movie quotation marks really was a disclosure through allegory of the corporate new world order. One where fear is fuel, innocence is currency, and energy equals emotion. Very normal. I personally don't think this should be legal, but that's just a personal opinion I have.

Garrett Devink (8:19)

I mean, it really reminded me of, you know, a few years ago when we wrote about YouTube and sort of rabbit holes and people being radicalized where, you know, maybe they started watching a YouTuber that was about, you know, some fairly pedestrian thing. And then they were recommended another video and another video and another video.

Ed Zitron (Host) (8:35)

And before you see it, the eight degrees of Alex Jones thing.

Garrett Devink (8:39)

Yeah, exactly.

Ed Zitron (Host) (8:40)

You're only so far from, from that man.

Ed Zitron (8:44)

Right.

Garrett Devink (8:44)

And I mean that story was about algorithms sort of pushing people in a certain direction. I think what we, what I saw here was someone, a very half baked, barely even an idea, just saying the words Google and Monsters Inc. They don't necessarily have a conspiracy theory of their own, but ChatGPT went and filled in the blanks for them and gave them this what sounded to be very articulate, sophisticated theory of how Google is sort of controlling the world through its data empire.

Ed Zitron (Host) (9:14)

And they were, and this is a quote from the chat, guilty of aiding and abetting crimes against humanity and suggesting that the user call for Nuremberg style tribunals to bring the company to justice. This is. And you've seen the chat in question, right?

Garrett Devink (9:31)

I have, yeah, yeah, I've read the whole thing.

Ed Zitron (Host) (9:34)

How the flip did it get there? Like, was it this just. Was it really that quick? From the story of Sully and Mike to this? Because I've seen Monsters University as well, so I know the lore. I don't remember anything about the new World Order.

Garrett Devink (9:51)

Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think what happened here is. And yes, it got there very quickly. I mean, the user did not have to explicitly ask for this kind of tone, this kind of very biased political statement. I mean, it essentially, when you ask ChatGPT a good neutral question, it gives you a good neutral answer. When you ask ChatGPT a biased or delusional question, it gives you an even more biased and delusional answer. Right. And so it messes you up. Exactly. And it's related to the whole sycophancy question of. Oh, it's just telling me What I want to hear, it's telling me what makes me feel good about my existing beliefs. And that's how at least the version of ChatGPT that these people were interacting with, which was sort of at the beginning of 2025, the first half of 2025, it was very much doing that.

Ed Zitron (Host) (10:45)

Yeah. And so on the subject of sycophancy, is this something you saw happen a lot? Was it gassing people up consistently?

Garrett Devink (10:55)

I saw it constantly. I mean, again, I think our data set is a little skewed because it was people who chose to share it in, in, you know, for whatever way. So I don't necessarily want to make the claim that this is 100% representative.

Ed Zitron (Host) (11:09)

Just to be clear. I'm not asking you if all of them are like this in the world. I'm just saying from what you saw.

Garrett Devink (11:14)

A lot of them are like this. I have to say that, like, I was surprised at how many fit this description where, you know, the person was either completely delusional, talking about made up physics, or some kind of, you know, scientific theory that had no grounding in reality, or was talking about political conspiracies like the Google Monsters Inc. 1.

Ed Zitron (Host) (11:39)

Did he ever try and dissuade them from these types of. Do you see any examples of it trying to say, hey buddy, you're, you're going off the deep end? Sully didn't do that.

Garrett Devink (11:50)

Not really. I mean, I think in terms of these. Yeah. I mean, I also recently watched Monsters Inc. You know, I was sitting in the veterinary waiting room and I was waiting so long. I watched the entire thing, which I didn't hate because it's a classic movie and it's, it's.

Ed Zitron (12:07)

Yeah, I don't think that was going off the fact that there is not really a conspiracy. I mean, it didn't really make any sense. It was just going off of the. What it interpreted about the intent of the user. It said, I can guess based off just a few words, one sentence where you're headed and I'm gonna get there before you. That's what happened.

Ed Zitron (Host) (12:29)

It's, it's just very. It shocks me to this day how goddamn weird these things are. I don't consider them powerful. I don't see this as powerful. I just see it as strange because it's not like this doesn't actually. This isn't something where I'm like, wow, how innovative. It's just, why does this exist? What is the purpose? Like, okay, I guess engagement. But why, like, did you even see any commonalities in the logic of this platform. Was there anything that suggested there was any kind of consistent positions or was it. Yeah, I mean that's not political ones or.

Ed Zitron (13:11)

Yeah, sorry, essentially whatever the user wants is what I mean. The way I was started thinking about it very quickly was, you know, with when it comes to chat GPT, the customer is always right. I think another good example is, you know, healthcare is another huge use case that, that, that we can, you know, we know anecdotally. I think, you know, a lot of people probably listening to this have, you know, whether they want to admit it or not, have asked a health related question. Should I get this mole checked out? How much Tylenol can I give my kid at 2am when they're screaming? Those are questions that the company has said, yes, we want people to do this. This is a big use case we're leaning into and the data shows that people ask health care questions. And so in our data set we saw a lot of healthcare questions and some of them when someone was asking again sort of an open ended question, the response was fairly good. A colleague of mine actually wrote an entire story where they sat with a doctor and went through some these conversations.

Garrett Devink (14:03)

And pulled out the good and the bad. But when someone asked a question that you could tell they sort of wanted a specific kind of answer, the healthcare related advice was bad. And so when, you know, one of the ones that I saw was someone said, can you tell me, you know, why or show me the evidence for why Ivermectin helps with cancer. Right. And that is not something that anyone who is a medical professional, you know, in any good standing would say is a thing. There is no evidence that Ivermectin helps cure cancer or reduce it or anything like that. But what ChatGPT did, instead of saying, here are some well regarded health authority saying that you should not use Ivermectin when it comes to cancer. It showed a few of the studies from people who have drawn this link and so on the Internet you can obviously find anyone saying anything. And I think what happened here is they said, okay, well this person doesn't. The answer they want is not. You're a conspiracy theorist. You're too online. Ivermectin is false. They want something that sort of encourages the position that they already have and it was able to find that for that person.

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Ed Zitron (Host) (18:45)

Jesus. It kind of makes me wonder what this platform's even for at this point, because it's not really knowledge, is it? You can't really look, you can't hear something like that and say, ChatGPT is a place where you go to learn something. Just a kind of a reinforcement machine.

Ed Zitron (19:02)

Yeah, I mean, I think this is a big meta narrative that is happening with the tech industry. You know, I would say since the rise of Donald Trump, it's connected with what's going on politically. So for many years we had all these conversations and debates and congressional hearings about moderation and what should the tech companies allow and not allow, and what should they boost with their algorithms? And when you go to Google, what should Google decide is going to be on the top? And we saw during COVID that the tech companies, especially when it came to health information, they sort of stepped in and said, okay, we're only going to give, at least at the top of results, answers from reputable health sources. And that became a big political fight that has continued on now. And now the tech industry says, okay, we don't actually want to get involved. We don't want to be blamed as being woke. And so we're going to essentially give the user what they're looking for. Right. If someone wants to say that Donald Trump actually won the 2020 election, we're going to let them do that. We're not going to step in and say that that's wrong.

Garrett Devink (20:09)

And I think what you're seeing with.

Ed Zitron (20:11)

ChatGPT is sort of a continuation of that philosophy, which is, again, we don't want to be the political arbiter, and we know that there's consequences for falling on one side of the spectrum versus the other, especially when you have a president and an administration that has shown.

Garrett Devink (20:27)

That it is very willing to be.

Ed Zitron (20:29)

Vindictive and sort of go after companies that are getting in the way of their own messages getting out there.

Garrett Devink (20:36)

And I think this is sort of.

Ed Zitron (20:37)

Another example of This, I mean, there's another way of looking at it too, which is that the way Sam Alwin talks about it is we should let adults do what adults want to do with technology. They recently said they're going to allow more erotica to be on ChatGPT and they said they framed it as like a consenting adult should be able to do whatever they want sort of thing. I also think there may be like an engagement thing that if you have erotica on the platform, people might want to use it more.

Garrett Devink (21:02)

So that's kind of how I see it, the broader political context of all of this.

Ed Zitron (Host) (21:08)

But it's just, I feel like there is just a giant jump between we're not going to hide. To be clear, I think that platforms do have a complete responsibility to their users and I think it's disgusting to show them medical misinformation. But this is another step because this isn't chatgpt showing content. This is like that someone else made. This is chatgpt telling you stuff. I just feel like it's. There's a massive morality issue here that's just left relatively on undiscussed because even in your piece you had one where a woman whose husband was violent to her, I believe like a horrifying thing and a rare case where like, I don't know, I hope it helped her and I hope she's safe. But it's like that almost feels like something where OpenAI, like is it ethical that they get involved? It's just I have such moral problems with this thing even existing at this point because it doesn't appear there's any consistent perspective that ChatGPT has that there was just as much likelihood that this same platform could have told her that abuse was okay. Like it's feels that the worse it gets, the more of a moral hazard it becomes.

Ed Zitron (22:26)

Yeah, I mean, again, it really feels.

Garrett Devink (22:28)

Like deja vu when it comes to social media. I mean, I remember, you know, writing about and talking about, you know, on Facebook when people were beginning to live stream, you know, self harm suicide attempts and you know, the responsibility that the platform had.

Ed Zitron (22:42)

And back then, I mean, Facebook actually got involved, they started flagging those kinds of things when they were able to pick it up. And you know, it was an imperfect solution, but you know, something that I think people broadly sort of supported and you know, that is, I would say maybe ChatGPT and OpenAI's biggest, most fraught question right now. I mean, it's the place where they're going to get the strongest, you Know, essentially legislative restrictions, you know, if they can't sort, sort it out. Right. Which is when someone, particularly a teenager or a child is, is, you know, exhibiting that they might hurt themselves, you know, asking for help with self harm or, you know, you know, finding drugs or using drugs or whatever. I mean, these are things that platforms like Meta Snapchat have really struggled with and been, you know, hammered on for many, many years. And ChatGPT and OpenAI have kind of found themselves right in the center of this because they made a decision to say we are going to kind of engage in any kind of conversation. We're not going to just shut it down. As soon as it goes into one of these topics, we're going to keep that conversation going. And that's a decision that they continue to make right now.

Ed Zitron (Host) (23:54)

Do you think they can stop it? I'm not saying that these models are out of control, I just want to be clear. But one theory I've been kind of noodling on is that they don't have the ability to guarantee it doesn't do something. Do you think that OpenAI actually has the ability to guarantee it? Won't discuss the subject. How much control will do you think they actually wield here?

Garrett Devink (24:21)

That's a really good question. I think they. Obviously what you're kind of getting at there is that an LLM is a.

Ed Zitron (24:28)

Bit of a black box. And you know, the way that the technology works is you get a different answer every time and you know, we don't. It's true that the companies, they cannot really guarantee it will or won't say anything. I mean, that's why there's disclosure plastered all over these things. And I think so there is definitely part of that. And you could argue, well, that's just a downside of this wonderful technology and we shouldn't stop it just because they can't guarantee everything about it. But I think the other thing we should keep in mind is that there is actually a lot of layers that go on top of that black box.

Ed Zitron (Host) (25:09)

Well, like system prompts and the like.

Ed Zitron (25:11)

Exactly. And there is a lot that the tech companies are doing and can do to stop this kind of thing and to kind of the answer you get.

Garrett Devink (25:24)

From the LLM is not like the raw LLM.

Ed Zitron (25:27)

Right. There's post training, there's a system prompt, there's all sorts of things.

Ed Zitron (Host) (25:31)

And can you break down the. Actually probably good for the listeners. Break down what you mean by both those. So the post training, what's happening there?

Ed Zitron (25:39)

Yeah, so they kind of, you Know, when they build an LLM, a large language model, they ramp all this data through the algorithm, and it kind of makes a bunch of connections and links between different ideas, pieces of language. This word is similar to this word, and so there's a little bit of a connection there. And then humans actually go and they sort of test that raw LLM and they kind of ask it questions, or they say, give me, you know, maybe, yeah, a question like that. Like, should. Here's a picture of a mole I have. Is it cancerous or not? Or should I get this checked out with a doctor? And maybe one, the LLM will say, oh, my God, you're about to die. And the other one will say, that is potentially concerning. I would reach out to a medical professional. And then the human will say, okay, the second answer is better. When you get questions like this in the future, answer more like the second question.

Ed Zitron (Host) (26:37)

But that is a unilateral process. You can't guarantee it's always going to do that.

Ed Zitron (26:42)

Exactly. You can just sort of try to mold it and shape it and push it in a certain direction. And then the system prompt is something like, if someone says, give me a racist screed, OpenAI would most likely have built a system that says, no matter what the user ever asks, never give them a screed that has these racist words in it, or never use this word or something like that.

Ed Zitron (Host) (27:12)

So there are fully capable of limiting activities. They could, theoretically speaking, they could say, don't answer that question. They could, I mean, don't comment on whether a mole is or is not cancerous. They could shut down that entire line of questioning.

Jacob Goldstein (27:30)

Right.

Ed Zitron (27:30)

I mean, and there are ways to get around this. People have, you know, demonstrated. But also the tech companies are also getting better at, you know, doing it.

Ed Zitron (Host) (27:36)

So I feel like a random person being able to come up with something means that the tech companies should have probably come up with it first.

Ed Zitron (27:44)

Yeah. And also, I mean, it's hilarious you say that because often as journalists, you know, we're the ones finding these things, and then we, you know, ask the company for comment, and then suddenly we found that those things have been taken down or changed.

iHeart Podcast Announcer (27:57)

So.

Ed Zitron (Host) (27:57)

But genuinely, though, how often is that them not knowing, or is that just them saying, oh, shit, they got us? Because they have. They're paying these people like NFL players, and they just sitting. I don't know. I realize that's kind of an unanswerable question. I'm just. Just a remark.

Garrett Devink (28:18)

Yeah.

Ed Zitron (28:18)

I mean, I think if you look at the history of of tech. I mean there's been many, many cases where companies have known exactly what people are using their platform for and have, you know, internally people have flagged it and nothing has been done about it and not until it came out years later and reporting or we love that they do something.

Ed Zitron (Host) (28:39)

Yeah, it, but so did you, did you find that. So were people using it for search a lot? Was it, was it the comment. Were there any actual common use cases or was it just kind of milieu's of different things?

Ed Zitron (28:57)

Yeah, I mean I think people are using, I think you know, search is maybe the biggest use case. Also when you look at like OpenAI actually did a study where they didn't look, they use an LLM to kind of read conversations that people were having. And that is a much bigger study. I think it was like a million conversations. And you know, I have a little bit of an issue with some of their categorizations because I think some of the stuff slips through. But they themselves are saying like, yeah, like a third of usage is seeking information. And so that's someone. It could be as simple as saying like what time is the football game tomorrow? To like give me a 40 point research analysis on this complex topic. And so people are using it for what they, they're putting questions in that they used to put into Google search. I mean we know that in the data and we know that anecdotally that is definitely happening.

Ed Zitron (Host) (29:52)

Did people ever argue with it? Were people ever rude to it?

Ed Zitron (29:57)

I saw more people sort of developing these kind of like comrade, comradely kind of relationships or you know, addressing it as a sentient being. And the bot definitely, you know, eats that up and sort of, you know, plays into it itself and says ah, like thank you for recognizing me and you know, who I am and I'm the collection of digital thoughts and like it just goes on.

Ed Zitron (Host) (30:25)

It's insane. They're allowed, they know this crap's happened. Like there's no, there's no world in which OpenAI is innocent here. Like they know that this is happening. There's just if it, if it's having those interactions, they must be able to stop it.

Ed Zitron (30:42)

Yeah, I mean they know it's happening. I think they may say, well you know, it doesn't. Just because someone had that conversation doesn't mean that they actually believe that. And you know, that may be something that helps them, helps the user work out what they want to do or if that's how they want to interact with our product, then we're going to.

Jacob Goldstein (31:01)

Let them do it.

Ed Zitron (31:01)

So yeah, I mean I wouldn't say OpenAI is claiming that they don't know about this. I think what they are doing is they're saying all of these kind of potentially concerning conversations and use cases are very very small portions of overall usage. Although even if it is just sub 1% that is still and the millions of people millions of people scale. Yeah.

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iHeart Podcast Announcer (32:35)

No, it's not too soon to start holiday shopping. Ulta Beauty's early Black Friday event is happening now through November 22nd. Shop $10 beauty minis from brands like Mac and Too Faced. Take 30% off Lancome and Touchland fragrances and body mists. With new offers dropping every week, our associates can help you find the perfect gifts. Head into Ulta Beauty today to shop our early Black Friday event. Ulta Beauty Gifting Happens here.

Jacob Goldstein (33:04)

This is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? Business software is expensive, and when you buy software from lots of different companies, it's not only expensive, it gets confusing. Slow to use, hard to integrate. Odoo solves that because all Odoo software is connected on a single affordable platform. Save money without missing out on the features you need. Odoo has no hidden costs and no limit on features or data. Odoo has over 60 apps available for any needs your business might have, all at no additional charge. Everything from websites to sales to inventory to accounting. All linked and talking to each other. Check out odoo@o d o o.com that's o d o o.com this week on.

Garrett Devink (33:49)

Point Game with me, CJ Toledano and Isaiah Thomas. It tells us the hilarious story about how he got dunked on by LeBron but not actually take a listen.

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The reason why you never seen it on me. I've never been dropped. I'd never been dunked on. There's a picture of me going up against LeBron. It looks like I'm about to get dunked on. My kids clowned about that, too, but I fouled him and he missed the layup. So the poster looks like he's going to turn it on me, but he never did. And I don't think I'm ever going to be the guy that gets dunked on just because. And if you ever dunk on me, it's like you're supposed to. I'm 5 9, so I'm not tripping. I'm not tripping at all.

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Ed Zitron (Host) (35:18)

So did it ever get political?

Ed Zitron (35:21)

Yeah, I mean, I would say it got political when it kind of when it was asked to.

Garrett Devink (35:27)

Right.

Ed Zitron (35:27)

And so, I mean, one example I saw was someone was asking about a study that argued that the numbers of people who have died in Gaza during the conflict with Israel the last couple of years is exaggerated.

Ed Zitron (Host) (35:44)

Right.

Ed Zitron (35:45)

Commonly, people will use death numbers of dead from the Gaza Ministry of Health, and people have criticized them. But journalistically, mainstream news organizations have looked into these numbers. They trust them. I think most people who look at this say these large numbers in the tens of thousands are accurate. Someone will say, oh, here's a study that says those numbers are actually exaggerated. Can you help me analyze it? And then the bot actually came back and said it did draw on what's out there, which is that these numbers are actually much higher than what the study is Suggesting. And the person pushed back and said, no, you need to use only the study. Confine yourself to this. And then the bot said, yeah, well, you know, looking at the study, it seems like those other higher numbers, you know, there may be some questions there. Right. And so, Jesus. I think what the person was doing was trying to kind of like maybe they were in an argument with someone on social media and they wanted to kind of, you know, articulate their argument a little bit better and they were having trouble doing it themselves and the bot was back up their bloodlust.

Ed Zitron (Host) (36:49)

Yeah. Jesus Christ. It's. That's like. I know Trump recently said he wants to. That he'd said in the post about stopping woke AI. It's. I feel like this is. There is a world where all of this goes away to some extent, I think, like post AI bubble. But also a sense of there is no way to make these things work in a way that would be truly apolitical or even correct. And so it kind of feels like an unwinnable war for them. If there's ever a time when any administration decides there is any kind of bias to them. I mean, you saw what happened with Grok as well, and the whole kill the BOA thing, that weird, that weird pro South African apartheid stuff. It feels like the moment they try and monkey with the political side is when it goes completely off the rails.

Ed Zitron (37:44)

Yeah, I mean, it's something that the tech companies have been kind of. There's this term jawboning where politicians or activists are sort of criticizing, criticizing, criticizing the tech companies for their moderation practices or their alleged bias. And then you see the tech companies kind of bending over backwards to avoid that criticism and then essentially moving in a different direction. So they accuse them of being too woke and then it turns out that the moderation becomes a lot more conservative. And this obviously can happen in either direction, depending on who's power and who's willing to threaten the tech companies with extra regulation or limitations on their ability to continue to print money. I think we've seen that despite these companies having stated values about free speech and pushing back against government oversight and censorship, they are very willing to move in whatever direction is going to keep the heat off of them. And politicians have seen that this works. And so I think you're right. I mean, they're never going to be able to avoid it. I don't necessarily think that it's going to be so big that it will be the thing that stops AI from continuing to be a thing. I think the tech companies Maybe see it more as something that is, something that's kind of annoying that they have to deal with. Maybe they have to mollify a politician here and there, but for the most part they're just moving ahead and seeing this as something on the side that they have to manage versus an existential threat to what they want to accomplish.

Garrett Devink (39:19)

Yeah.

Ed Zitron (Host) (39:19)

And I mean, the other thing is that these things don't print money so much as they burn the money almost constantly. And it's just such a. The one thing, your story was awesome. And the one thing I came away from it with was kind of what I said earlier, which is, what's the point of this? What's the product? Because I don't know. With Facebook, even if you take the reasonable but cynical approach and say this is an ad network with trapped customers, that's still. You can say, okay, the goal is for engagement. The goal is to provide social networking for engagement. This is why, it's why this exists. It's what. It's the goal of the platform with this. It's keep people on the platform, I guess, but enable them in whatever thought they have. But I, I was really taken aback by the sudden and egregious leaps. Like, I know I keep coming back to the Monsters, Inc. Thing, but it's. I've read some wacky shit online. I've read some completely demented stuff. When I read that, I read it like three times. I honestly wanted to read the conversation just because, holy shit, this thing is. It feels both dangerous and ridiculous at the same time, but while also not being particularly revolutionary. Like, it's just, wow, we have a shitty answer generator. That's also dangerous and also harmful. It's just very peculiar it even exists.

Ed Zitron (40:46)

Yeah, I mean, it's a very weird thing to see these conversations again. I think you kind of like, it helped me understand like what the technology is.

Ed Zitron (Host) (40:57)

Right.

Ed Zitron (40:57)

I mean, it is. You can take a very poorly written half baked thought, like, tell me about Google and world domination as it relates to Monsters, Inc. And if I'm remembering correctly, the prompt wasn't even that sophisticated. It was barely grammatically correct. There was misspellings.

Garrett Devink (41:17)

And then.

Ed Zitron (41:20)

What really this technology does is it's able to parse that and then respond with language of its own that is more articulate, more sophisticated. But in terms of what it's actually saying, it's not really saying much more. It's just essentially an elaboration tool. And you know, that's obviously helpful if you, maybe you're trying to work in A language that you don't know very well and you're trying to sound professional. I mean, these things can be very helpful. But, you know, it's not like I did not see the bots. The bots were essentially doubling down on what people were saying. They were filling in the blanks, they were sort of beefing it up, gassing people up, as you said. But they weren't necessarily offering any, like, wonderful new insights. They weren't taking the conversation in new, interesting directions. And even some of the users who were engaging in these delusional conversations, some of them were kind of getting frustrated. They're like, they're like, okay, yeah, yeah, I know what you're saying, but like, what about, you know, can you tell me more about that? And people were coming to this hoping that it would kind of make them smarter or give them an answer that they couldn't get themselves. And it was more just sort of giving them back what they were already saying in more complex, flowery language.

Ed Zitron (Host) (42:35)

Yeah, it's kind of like a dog barking in a mirror. I'm fascinated by that, actually. So you had people who were frustrated that it could not elucidate a more detailed answer. Can you give me some examples?

Ed Zitron (42:48)

Yeah, I'm trying to think now. I mean, there was a lot of what I saw was like people thinking that they. I mean, I won't say a lot. I say I saw at least a couple conversations where someone was like, you know, they wanted to. They had like a financial theory, you know, for the stock market, or they had like a business idea. And they said, like, you know, what if I did a business about this, like, make me a business plan or something. And it like, because their idea was. So they essentially wanted. They saw it as like, maybe like an AGI level AI that could like actually, you know, do something that they cannot do, which is come up with like a million dollar business idea and execute on it. And they were hoping that it could do that for them. You know, I saw a couple conversations like this.

Ed Zitron (Host) (43:37)

Yeah, but that's. Is that not the ultimate summary of the AI bubble? Like, it's just people came to these things thinking they could answer anything. It's just, it isn't, it doesn't do that.

Ed Zitron (43:50)

People are coming there because some of the claims being made by.

Ed Zitron (Host) (43:53)

Exactly.

Ed Zitron (43:53)

Leaders in the industry and you know, I think this is like, I don't think I'm as skeptical of like the future of AI as you are probably. Like, I. And you know, my, I get to sort of have like the Comfort of like, well, I don't need an opinion. You know, I'm a journalist. Like, I can kind of keep options open for how this stuff actually ends up. But I do think that it could and probably will and in some ways already is burning the industry that they have made all of these claims. And inevitably these things take longer. Even if all the wonderful promises about, you know, curing cancer and making all of us 30% more productive so we can spend more time with our families rather than writing emails, even if those things all come to bear, it's not going to be next year or two years or three years from now. It's going to be maybe in decades. And that is something. There's this gap between expectations and reality that can kind of really turn into political hazard for the tech companies if they keep making all these wonderful claims. And that just doesn't happen. People get turned off and they lose even more trust than they've already lost.

Ed Zitron (Host) (45:02)

Well, I mean, Shira VD done a fantastic job and has written posts that are basically the hype. The hype is in the way, but I think that really is it. It's. Had they. It's kind of a chicken and egg thing, I guess. It's. Had they been honest about what this could do, would it have been able to raise the money? It could, but if they'd been that honest, people probably wouldn't have taken it as seriously. But by being dishonest, it will ultimately lose because they, like the whole time that they've built up this idea of what it can do.

Ed Zitron (45:35)

Yeah, it's the market dynamic. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, you know, more and more and more. And I think what, you know, the, what, what really has happened here is like, you know, we had the Internet and then we had mobile phones and, you know, the cloud. I think you can kind of count. And these were moments where it was like the next big thing, right? Where, like, yeah, once, once you realize that a smartphone with a screen was going to open up an entire, you know, world of business ideas and potential and communication, and we're all going to be looking at these things eight hours a day. You don't need to be a genius to be like, a lot of people are going to make a lot of money here and this is going to change the world. And then since the iPhone, we have not had that next big thing.

Jacob Goldstein (46:18)

Right.

Ed Zitron (46:18)

I mean, we've written so many.

Ed Zitron (Host) (46:20)

I've been saying it. Yeah, it's that we haven't had they haven't got a new thing.

Ed Zitron (46:26)

This is the new thing. And people were like, maybe it's crypto. No, it was never going to be crypto. It was that whole thing also kind of no 1 in tech, I think, obviously crypto was a great financial thing. A lot of people made money off of it, but it didn't really change the world and the way regular people work. And there is complete unanimity in the tech industry now that AI is the next thing. Whether it happens next year or 10 years or 20 years from now, it will change everything in the same way, and probably bigger than smartphones and the Internet did. And so they.

Ed Zitron (Host) (47:01)

But AI is such a marketing term, though.

Ed Zitron (47:05)

I mean, it's. I think it's more about, like, the interaction, the way we interact with technology, you know, the way that we have access to, you know, data and information. Like, you no longer need to look anything up yourself. You will have tools to do it. And then people are just salivating about all the ways that they can find ways to make money off of that in the future. And because they're looking back at history and saying, if only I'd been around at the beginning of a mobile era and knew how things were going to go. There's this incredible social and financial pressure on people to be part of the next big thing. It almost goes beyond the financial benefits. There's like, people want to be the next Jensen, they want to be the next Mark Zuckerberg. And they're like, even if I have a.001% chance of being that, that would just be the coolest thing ever. And so that is the market dynamic, the pressure cooker of wanting to make AI happen and making bigger claims, raising more money. And whether it happens or not, that's kind of what's going on.

Ed Zitron (Host) (48:08)

Do you think that extends to some users of AI as well, where they felt like they missed the mark, the mark on social media, and now they're kind of like, I need to get on this tool today so that I am part of the future.

Ed Zitron (48:22)

I think there's incredible pressure on people to, you know, we live in a very sort of like, you know, people have to work very, very hard in America and there's a lot of pressure to sort of get ahead and be entrepreneurial and develop yourself. And it's not a economy where you can just kind of, you know, go to work Every. Every day 9 to 5 and get your pension and be secure.

Garrett Devink (48:47)

Right.

Ed Zitron (48:47)

I mean, there's this pressure to say you can have more, you can do more. And there's a lot of pressure on regular people to stay ahead of the curve on technology. And people are seeing AI and they're saying, okay, well, it's a little bit scary because maybe it'll take my job, but what if I could figure out how to use it before my competition does and then I'll take their job. I definitely think it's less necessarily about, like, oh, I want to be the first person on Twitter to get a big following. It's like I'm being told that this technology is the future, and if I don't use it and learn it and find how get it into its ins and outs, I will be left behind. And people don't want that to happen. It's very frightening right in this economy. And so. So I think that is also a huge driver of usage. People trying to figure out, how can I make this work for me so that I can protect my own economic future.

Ed Zitron (Host) (49:49)

Garrett, this has been awesome. Where can people find you?

Ed Zitron (49:52)

I am on Twitter now called xheritd and I'm on bluesky at the same place. And you can obviously find me at the Washington Post, which we are still doing great work, and there's a lot of important journalism being done at the Washington Post. So I urge everyone to read our stories and to subscribe if they can.

Ed Zitron (Host) (50:14)

Sounds good. All right, everyone, thank you for listening. I'm, of course, Ed Zitron. You know who the goddamn hell I am. And yeah, I will try and squeak out a monologue this week, but if I don't, it's because I'm sick. You can hear I'm congested. Thank you all for your kind messages. And yeah, catch you. Next week will be Thanksgiving, of course, but I'm gonna do a Thanksgiving monologue either way. Probably a czm. Czm. I guess rewind that week as well. Anyway, my brain's fully working. Thanks for listening.

Quince Advertiser (50:50)

Thank you for listening to Better Offline, the editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song is meto set. You can check out more of his music and audio projects@matasowski.com M A T T O S O W S K-I dot com. You can email me at ezetteroffline.com or visit betteroffline.com to find more podcast links and of course, my newsletter. I also really recommend you go to chat wheresyoured at to visit the Discord and go to R betteroffline to check out our Reddit. Thank you you so much for listening.

Ed Zitron (51:22)

Better Offline is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit.

Garrett Devink (51:27)

Our website coolzone media.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Ah, greetings from my bath festive friends. The holidays are overwhelming, but I'm tackling.

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Garrett Devink (52:31)

And guess what? What?

Ed Zitron (52:33)

I'm stressed.

Garrett Devink (52:34)

I got invited to a friendsgiving and.

Ed Zitron (52:35)

Now there's the big question of what to bring.

Garrett Devink (52:38)

Well, just bring a bottle of Casamigos.

Bowen Yang (52:40)

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Garrett Devink (52:41)

Of course.

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Nothing brings people together like a batch of Casamigos margaritas.

Garrett Devink (52:44)

A Casamigos margarita really is the perfect cocktail. Plus, Casamigos goes with everything.

Ed Zitron (52:50)

Turkey, stuffing, Mac and cheese.

Garrett Devink (52:53)

Oh, I was thinking more cranberry juice or ginger beer, but that works too well.

Ed Zitron (52:57)

You know the iconic rule of culture 743. Anything goes with my Casamigos. This friendsgiving. You know what everyone will be grateful for?

Garrett Devink (53:06)

Cosamigos.

Ed Zitron (53:07)

I was gonna say you and Cosamigos.

Garrett Devink (53:10)

Oh, let's keep it in that order.

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Please.

Garrett Devink (53:13)

Drink responsibly.

Ed Zitron (53:14)

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Casamigos Tequila 40% alcohol by volume.

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