A (6:20)

I know, I'm so excited to be back. Thank you.

B (6:22)

So let's get into it. Let's talk about anemia. Maybe we can start with some. I was in preparation for our conversation today, also, like, all right, I gotta get the definition, gotta get some of these definitions straight. So what is anemia and what does it look like clinically? How can it present?

A (6:38)

Yeah, for sure. So this is a topic I'm super passionate about. Cause I was. It was probably one of the biggest things I personally had struggled with. And ironically, of course, it's the things that I see most often in my patients. So anemia is looked at as, you know, iron deficiency. I'm putting my bunny quotes up because it's not a deficiency as much as it's a dysfunction. And so clinically, what doctors will do is they'll measure your iron, they'll measure your ferritin levels, which is the kind of the storage form of iron intracellular, so in the cell. And they're looking at it from, you know, a hundred and up. And so that's supposed to be like, you know, healthy iron level store. Sometimes it'll be even like 50. Seems like a good baseline for some doctors. But oftentimes, clinically, what I'll see is I've had patients who've had iron levels at like a one or two, and the labs had to retest because they're like, there must be a mistake here. But often I'll see it actually under 10. And so the resolve for a lot of These women is, well, I just.

B (7:37)

Have to take more iron.

A (7:38)

I have to take the shot in my butt. The iron iv, which is kind of problematic for a lot of women because it has corn in it, which can be really problematic, especially if you have Hashimoto's and you have multiple food intolerances, might not be the best thing. And it's really expensive. So is it a sustainable option? Not exactly. You know, iron is one of those minerals that is probably the most abundant mineral on earth. So if it's the most abundant mineral on earth, how is it that we're so deficient in it? So this is not a deficiency as much as it's about a dysfunction of the iron, which is kind of like the topic of today and how that actually impacts athletic performance. And athletic. I'm using that term loosely because I'm not suggesting everyone watching this as an athlete, but you know, even women who are in their mid stages of life are lifting weights and for some reason their poor post workout recovery, which was a huge issue for me, I've texted you about this. My workout recovery is so poor, I'm just not recovering. I would be complaining to my husband Eric to massage my, my thighs because they always felt so heavy afterwards. It wasn't just a soreness. And so that ends up killing consistency. And then, you know, a lot of women that I've worked with just end up shaming and judging themselves and going, oh, I just, I can't stay on a plan. And it's not necessarily them that's the problem.

B (8:58)

Yeah, great, great points. So let, let's dive into that a little bit with the deficiency versus the dysfunction and maybe we can talk about the role. Just to have the listener understand fully when we're talking about iron and what the connection is to hypothyroidism or low thyroid function or Hashimoto's thyroid. I think at this point we can say like just autoimmune disease. Like if you have low functioning thyroid, the chances of you producing autoantibodies are like what, 90%, something like that. Like 90% of people who are classified as hypothyroid do have some autoimmune dysfunction. So let's talk a little bit about when we are thinking about iron. How does that relate to thyroid function? Like what is, what is it doing? Is it helping conversion of hormones? Like inactive, like tell us what, tell, tell us what it's doing.

A (9:43)

Yeah, so when iron is circulating properly, what we're going to see is that it's one of the ways that we convert T4, our inactive thyroid hormone, to T3, our active thyroid hormone. Now T4 is actually in the blood. T3 is intracellular, which is kind of interesting. So when we're getting our blood work tested, it's not necessarily the Most accurate for T3 levels. And I think that that could actually be quite surprising to some women. And this is why a deeper understanding of physiology is super important. But iron is one of the ways that that that conversion occurs. Other things that can lead to that conversion of T4 to T3 are things like making sure that that that woman is really tending to her stress management, her nervous system regulation. Because out of whack cortisol levels can also impede that conversion. Higher estrogen levels, which we'll see in the earlier phases of perimenopause, can also impact that. That's why we're starting to see, especially in perimenopause, that that thyroid strain starts to impact so many women during that time because it's a conversion issue ultimately that's occurring.

B (10:48)

Yeah, and that's interesting too because if you're on Levo or a Synthroid or whatever and you are, you know, you're basically pumping out more and more T4 if it's a conversion issue. To your point, right. Maybe it's low iron levels that are not allowing for that conversion of the inactive thyroid like inactive T4 to active T3. It doesn't actually matter how much T4 you take. You can't actually make use of it and convert and sort of take like cleave off an iron there. The other, the other thing I maybe wanted to talk about is, and I don't know if you, if you see this in your clients is the reverse T3 as well. Like if we see low levels of iron, how does that impact the production or does that ramp up or jack up reverse T3? And why is that important to think about in the context of thyroid function as a whole?

A (11:32)

For sure, it's a great question. So anytime that I see reverse T3 levels elevated and you can see this on your blood work, if that number is over 15, it's a really big red flag for me that immediately I think stress, however, I think we have to redefine what the word stress means. It's not just my mother in law is driving me crazy or I got this unexpected bill from the government. It's also physical forms of stress. And whether that physical form of stress is iron that's not circulating or if it's pathogenic in nature, which by the way can feed on unbound iron, which we can discuss as well. Oh yeah, and this also absolutely can, can drive up reverse T3 levels. And most often if I see a woman go to their doctor to get blood work done for verse, T3 isn't tested and it's, it's, it's kind of problematic because it's important to see the overall context of those labs.

B (12:22)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so let's actually double click on some of those stressors. So yes, your mother in law can drive you crazy. Yes, you can be over exercising. Yes, you cannot be getting enough sleep. Talk about some of the pathogenic factors. What might, what can we consider with that?

A (12:37)

Yeah, so other physical forms of stress are things like parasites for sure. And I'm a very big proponent that. You know, there's a saying in the functional medical community that if you have a pulse, you have parasite. And certainly this can happen. But at the same token, parasites are not always problematic. So they can be residing in your body and be happily like nesting in there. But if you're feeding off weak tissue because you are so mentally stressed, or you're not getting sunlight, or you're not moving your body, they're going to proliferate, as will bacterial infections. As will viral infections. You know, and so we have to kind of think of that. It's not so much of the germ. It's also very much the terrain. It's what is the environment that these are in. It's often why, you know, you can be prepping for a vacation, you know, and you're like burning the candle at both ends. You're trying to tie up everything as much as possible and then you go on vacation and then you finally get sick. It's because you've put yourself in such a compromised state. Now anything that was kind of residing there under the surface is like, you know, just having a bit of a party.

B (13:44)

Right.

A (13:45)

Because of that weak tissue.

B (13:47)

Yeah. And this is, I mean, you mentioned it. It's the germ theory versus the terrain theory.

A (13:50)

Right.

B (13:50)

It's like we're all exposed to germs all the time, big bad viruses. Like, but the, but the severity.

A (13:56)

Right.

B (13:57)

Like how that can take hold of someone is gonna be very dependent on the health status. Right. This is why we, the, with the recent pandemic, a lot of the individuals who unfortunately had a very difficult time with it were often metabolically unhealthy. They had other comorbidities that they were already dealing with. And so let's say, let's just assume that Everybody has a parasite. Like you said, if there's a, you know, pulse, you know, I have a parasite, you. We all have parasites. But if we are, if we are aligning ourselves with best practices, let's say with our nutrition and with our exercise, movement and our stress management, as you've been discussing, that our immune system like 99% of the time is probably gonna keep those parasites in check and maybe even make the argument that that is part of a healthy holistic view of, you know, of, of a, of a human living in the modern world. It's like we have parasites and we keep them in check when our immune system is healthy.

A (14:53)

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think this is the problem, is that people are chasing the wrong thing. And it's often why I don't put people into parasite protocols unless they have their foundations done first. Otherwise they come back and go, that didn't work. And I'm like, well, yeah, you didn't have the foundation set right, so it's important.

B (15:08)

So if you have someone. So let's say you have someone she suspects or she. We've confirmed that she has hypothyroid and maybe you've run some labs. We see low ferritin levels. We'll talk about some values in a moment. And you're also suspecting that maybe some parasites now have run amok and gone unchecked, right? Yeah. What would, what would be some clinical signs and symptoms that a patient might be presenting with. And I understand that this is systemic and can be very vague. It could be like general malaise. But, like, tell us no to. Just to kind of paint a picture. Because I don't think parasites are part of the, you know, when someone thinks that something's going wrong, like, like people don't jump to, I wonder if I have a parasite that's going unchecked. You know, like, I don't think that that's the first line of thought. So what would be, what would be some, you know, common clinical patterns that you've been able to observe over your, over your tenure as a, as a clinician and working with patients?

A (15:56)

Yeah, I think big ones are your clenching, grinding your teeth is a pretty big indicator. Your symptoms get worse around the full moon because serotonin levels go up, which mobilizes parasites. You might have a bit of an itchy bum as well, mood wise. Parasites do love to gobble up on neurotransmitters. So things like serotonin, dopamine, gaba, acetylcholine, which helps you to learn those types of things can also occur. Skin issues. Absolutely. Because depending on where the parasite is located, if it's in the bile ducts, which they love to just cozy up in there, you can also see some issues of individuals having gallbladder pain as well. Because if those bile ducts are congested with these flukes, which are in the helminth category of parasites, you're the person's going to have improper bile flow. And improper bile flow is also going to match up with like, low stomach acid issues as well. Because bile and stomach acid are kind of like the yin and the yang of one another. People end up thinking like, oh, low stomach acid. I'm just going to take, you know, enzymes, sure, it's great. But you probably have a bile problem as well. So you're gonna have fat assimilation issues. You're probably gonna end up having some pathogens as well. Because bile is also an antibacterial. Digestive issues is obviously a big one. Bloating, gas, constipation can occur. That can even occur when you're doing a parasite protocol. Because I always picture these little parasites with like little pitchforks going, hell, no, we won't go. Because they wanna stay in your body, right. So they can actually secrete these chemicals that can constipate you. So a variety of different things can actually end up occurring during a parasite cleanse and after. But they do love to feed on iron. So individuals who are anemic. This is also something that I also look at is is there. Are. Are there bacterial infections like H. Pylori parasites at play because they feast on unbound iron.

B (17:49)

And what's interesting too is, you know, in perimenopause, just as a function of age, like, you know, the digestive. You know, when we kind of just look at the digestive, the epithelial lining, it's just like one cell layer thick. It's not that, you know, it's not that robust. It's not like it has multiple layers like the skin does. And so it just gets trashed with age, you know, so already, just as a natural function of aging, a lot of women will say, oh, my digestion isn't quite the same anymore, or I have a really hard time with higher protein. Like, I get a lot of GI upset. So there's so many things that can be happening at the same time. It could be a parasite, which is, you know, as you said, the fat assimilation is going to be affected if they're cozying up in the bile duct. And your digestion of fats and proteins are gonna be certainly affected as well. The low stomach acid. This is. We see this just kind of naturally, as we sort of go through midlife, is that stomach acid level can naturally decline. So it's. It's hard, I think, sometimes to. And you know, when I asked you this question initially, it was like, well, it's sort of like a general thing, but these things can all be happening at the same time. And there can be two truths that. That are happening at the same time. One is that you're in midlife, maybe you're in perimenopause or menopause. And two, your parasites can be either as a function of aging or as a function of low iron. Low iron stores, as we've been talking about, can also be running like they can be feasting on some of our mineral stores as well, which are making things worse.

A (19:08)

Yeah, yeah, a thousand percent.

B (19:10)

Okay, so let's talk a little bit about you. We were talking about recovery, recovery from workouts. So you. And you had mentioned that, you know, in your own journey that you were noticing, like, oh, my gosh, like, I just can't. I can't come back from this leg day. And you're getting Eric, your husband, to, you know, kind of massage you and do all the things what are. Again. And I've always said this. Any woman who's ever had a thyroid issue, that's like, I have some type of low functioning thyroid, Hashimoto's thyroiditis. I've always said to that particular woman in terms of intensity in the gym, that you need to take it down. So whatever you think is an 8 out of 10 is probably a 12 out of 10 because of the type of person that you are. To start with, there's like a certain phenotype of individual who gets thyroid issues. She tends to be very, very driven, very type A type of person, very independent. I mean, there's some, there's some. You know, it's like you're like, damn it, she's completely describing me. But yeah, that, that, that kind of. I, I don't. That type of person is like, very driven, very success oriented. And then, you know, midlife, you know, she's 40, and then she's sort of hit with, you know, multiple, multiple issues like the thyroid. And now this, this poor recovery. I've always said to these women, let's take it down to like a 4 or a 5 out of 10, which is the hardest thing to tell. A very driven, type A personality kind of individual. They're going to completely disregard that. Most Often and then go and do their 12 out of 10 workout and then be like, dammit, I'm down for the count for six days after this one, you know, after this one workout. So what are some, what are some strategies that we can be thinking about as a way to help with our muscle recovery in the gym? And then maybe we also want to talk about what are some, like, does that mean that we have to check for parasites, we want to run a full blood like pan, like what is the data that we want to be looking for? And then what are some of the sort of clinical or I guess strategies that we can be doing in the gym and then post recovery that are going to help with that?

A (21:08)

Yeah, it's, it's a great question. I mean the things that I have found that were really helpful for me, obviously I know that you've spoken about, you know, protein, et cetera, the timing of it is really important to make sure that you're eating within that two hour window after you work out. I had to really, and I still enforce this in women that I work out, that I, well, that I work with, I should say to make sure that they're dialing it down like you mentioned. Right. Otherwise you're doing three workouts a week. It's, it's probably not going to work for you. You have to let your body kind of get used to these things. Um, the thing that I find is most women like myself and patients that I've worked with is the iron component to this because a lot of them are anemic and iron is, needs to be circulated. That's why this is not about iron deficiency, it's about dysfunction. So iron is the, he is literally the backbone of hemoglobin. Right. And hemoglobin is found in our red blood cells. And what it does is it just essentially carries oxygen from your lungs to your muscles. So if you have a woman who's anemic, she's probably gonna have less oxygen transport, which means faster fatigue. Right. But if we have better circulation of iron, we're gonna have better endurance because iron essentially just ensures that oxygen is moving more efficiently to those hard working muscles and it's delaying exhaustion during that exercise. And then you have of course your mitochondria, which is like the battery of your cells and they need iron for energy. So your mitochondria, that battery uses oxygen to make ATP, which for those to hearing this is essentially to make energy and that iron is crucial for this process. So less iron equals less energy production. But again, I'M talking about circulating iron. There is a really big difference between unbound and bound iron. So just because you're taking iron doesn't necessarily mean that it's become bound. And so I think it's really important to dive into how it becomes bound so people understand it. Because if, essentially, if you're a woman who's really stressed out and you know, if you're very stressed out and you're eating like lots of processed foods and high carb, et cetera, your magnesium stores are probably gonna be quite low, right? Because your body pulls for minerals and even vitamins to be able to support its stress response. So if your adrenals are compromised, it's not going to say, hey, liver, I need you to produce this protein called ceruloplasmin. And for those listening in simple terms, think of ceruloplasmin as this taxicab, okay? But to be able to open the door of the taxi cab so iron can get in and shuttle around in and out of our cells, it needs to be able to open the door. And to open the door we need vitamin A, but not beta carotene, vitamin A in the form of retinol, which is an animal source, which is best found in cod liver oil. And so that's. Cod liver oil is so important for women with hypothyroidism and Hashimoto's because they're often very deficient in fat soluble vitamins, vitamin D, A, E, K. And cod liver oil has that naturally occurring in that whole food form. But then you have to open the door of that cab door and to do that, you need copper. This is so important. We don't have an iron issue, we have a copper issue. And if we actually look at the mitochondria, that battery I was talking about, it's heavily reliant on copper dependent enzymes to produce energy and also to regulate iron. So now the iron is in the taxi cabinet, ceruloplasmin, now it can go and it can circulate, but when it's not bound, because we're just taking copious amounts of iron, but we don't have the supportive nutrients, copper, vitamin A, you know, ceruloplasmin being produced from the liver, which it can't happen if you're super stressed out and you're magnesium deficient, then we're not gonna circulate iron and then we're gonna be really, really tired, right? Because these copper dependent enzymes, it's a really big key to producing your body's energy. And without Enough of that. You're gonna be, you're gonna be very, very tired. And iron will end up being stuck in tissues where it doesn't belong. And that's where you're gonna end up seeing iron. Not going to where it needs to. It's gonna get stuck. Believe it or not, there was actually research done, and this is super crazy. There was research done by Dr. Bruce Ames to show that iron can be stored in tissues and organs 10 times more. Like, that's, that's kind, that's kind of.

B (25:42)

Where it shouldn't be.

A (25:43)

Where it shouldn't, where it shouldn't, where it shouldn't be. It can actually accumulate up to 10 times higher in organs and tissues than it should be. And this essentially creates like a traffic jam in your body. And if it's storing in organs and tissues, one of the areas that they noted was that it's often in the liver. What happens there? Well, it begins to oxidize, it begins to rust. Like think of a, a cast iron pan that you have. You wash it. Well, it starts to rust if you don't grease it. Right. And iron can also be stuck and unbound in the lining of the small intestine, which becomes food for pathogens to feed us parasites. Yeah, exactly. So people are like, well, you know, you say that like, iron is gonna be stuck in the liver, but I thought it was because of parasites. Yeah, well, it depends on the individual, right? Like, it's, it's, it's, it's super important to understand this because if iron isn't circulating, you are not gonna end up having myoglobin. And for those of you guys that don't know what that is, it's essentially hemoglobin that's inside your, your muscles. And that's gonna build up to more lactic acid, which is that heavy leg feeling that I was saying earlier that I get my husband to massage my legs. Like, low circulating iron leads to poor workout recovery, because if your iron levels are not circulating, your body is gonna struggle to repair muscle damage, and that's gonna make your post workout recovery really challenging.

B (27:01)

This is fantastic. Okay, so just to recap and redirect me here if I've misunderstood you. So we have the ceruloplasmin. This is the taxi. And then in order to open the door of the taxi, we need copper and we need retinol, we need vitamin A, both of those things. Let's maybe touch. And then that allows the iron to get into the taxi. And then ceruloplasmin. Can take it where it needs to be bound. So it can be bound somewhere versus accumulating unbound in the, in the GI tract where it can feed like it can be just like a food source, like a full, you know, a buffet for the parasites that we're hosting and potentially oxidizing in organs like the liver. What I wanted you to touch on while you were talking, I was like, oh, copper, we should talk about zinc. Because often copper and zinc, I mean they use the same transporter. So I want you to explain that. But often when we're talking about iron, low iron, the things that are often recommended when we're taking iron is selenium and zinc. So how can we. And then, you know, anytime you're sick, it's like, take zinc anytime you're, you know, take zinc. So how can we be thinking about balancing our zinc intake for thyroid health alongside copper to allow to be opening the door to that taxa that we've been talking about. And then just for other general things, I mean, I kind of want to also talk about copper and hair, which we know is a really big problem for women with low functioning thyroid as well. Like our hair often falls out. So talk a little bit about zinc and copper, the sort of competing. I'll, I'll let you, I'll let you lay it out.

A (28:32)

Yeah. So zinc and copper play like a seesaw act with one another. And what I find interesting is that especially with athletic supplements there, there's usually quite a bit of high levels of zinc in it and that can actually block copper absorption in the body and it creates this unexpected mineral imbalance. So can we take zinc? Can we take. Yeah, we can take zinc. It's, it's not necessarily an issue to take zinc. It's just a matter of if we're taking zinc every single day, we're probably further depleting our copper stores. And this is why I also am not a huge fan of vegetarian and vegan diets, because while they're higher in so called non heme iron, you're getting very low bioavailable copper. And there is a difference between bioavailable copper and bio unavailable copper. So bio unavailable copper because copper has been highly demonized because people just think of it as, oh, you're copper toxic because you're on the birth control. Sure. But that's bio unavailable copper and its first primary storage site is the liver. It's why it's called an emotion. It can be an emotional mineral. People can develop a lot of anger and aggression with bio Unavailable copper that gets stored in this organ. The second storage site is the brain. So a lot of neurological issues can occur with bio unavailable copper. So people get really freaked out by copper. But if it's bioavailable, we actually need it.

B (29:54)

And we all seen those roofs, we've all seen the roofs on houses that start off copper and then they turn green and we're like, I don't want that in my body at all, right?

A (30:02)

Because we just think it's so problematic. But ultimately, and then people are drinking from the copper cups and I'm like, that's not bioavailable copper. The best bioavailable copper you're gonna get is from beef liver. Um, which is why the beef liver supplements are really great to take. But you can take as much as out of that as you want. But if your magnesium stores are super low, which can happen, like I said, from stress, you know, dietary wise, about only 20% of oral magnesium is actually absorbed. And that's generally based on the person's gut health. So when I'm looking at magnesium and what I'm recommending is, yes, take the oral magnesium. That's best for you. Whether it's a glycinate because it's more calming or it's a citrate because you're more, you tend to go towards constipation. I am always recommending dermal support. So like Epsom salt baths, even foot baths, if you have hot springs close to you, like I do go into the hot springs, you know what I mean? These are really great ways to provide that dermal support. Because if you're just supplementing orally with magnesium, it's not gonna be enough for your adrenals to go, hey, liver produce the ceruloplasmin, right? And then I also see very problematic in individuals is they'll end up taking very high doses of synthetic vitamin C supplements. And the reason why that this can be so problematic is because it can end up making too much iron free and unbound in the body, especially when copper levels are low. So the, the thing that I always like is more whole food vitamin C sources. I'm moving away even from the liposomal forms cuz it is still synthetic. I'm looking at things like acerola or Camu. Camu, they're not going to actually produce the same effect in the body.

B (31:42)

Fantastic. So you mentioned copper bioavailability between plant and animal sources, beef liver being a great source of that. What are some other good, maybe whole food sources of copper and if we had to supplement, if we felt like we had to supplement with them with like, maybe it's a beef liver supplement, as you, as you mentioned, are there, is there a certain form that we're looking for on the label?

A (32:07)

Not necessarily. When you get copper in a supplementation, normally I don't start with a synthetic copper. I always start with a beef liver supplement. I always trend towards the whole food forms first to see and then retest the person's blood within about six months. In terms of sources, beef liver is the highest. If you're eating an animal protein, it's high.

B (32:27)

Also an A, right? Has very high in A as well.

A (32:29)

So you're getting. Yes, yeah, you're getting a double whammy there. So it is nature's really great mineral supplement for sure. Even beef spleen desiccated in pill form can be really helpful. And of course, if you're eating any animal products, you're gonna get a variety of that. And I always tell people, if you're able to, to kind of vary your protein sources as much as humanly possible. But I'm always trending more towards the beef liver as my primary, like, source of the, the, the copper.

B (32:58)

That's good. And I think the, I think that we're almost like, with the protein movement in general, I would say that people are becoming a bit protein blind. It's just like they're just getting protein where it doesn't matter if it comes from a protein bar, if it comes from a protein snack, if it's like they're getting a hundred percent of their food from like whey protein, you know, some whey protein. And listen, like, I know that the body for a temporary amount of time can do pretty well with like. And you can throw it a lot of junk, a lot of processed foods and it'll kind of make do. But we're talking about, you know, you don't just wake up with hypothyroid, like you don't just have, you know, a week of, you know, whey protein pounders, let's say, and then wake up with a problem, right? This is like decades and decades and decades of chronic stress, unmitigated stress, you know, residue on the nervous system, a certain way of showing up, you know. And then as we've been talking about some of these mineral depletions with the magnesium and the copper and the, and the vitamin A depletion as well. I'd actually like you to expand a little bit on vitamin C or synthetic vitamin C as a way that can Potentially disrupt sort of the delicate balance in there as well. What is the issue with synthetic vitamin C? Is that like the, and you mentioned like liposomal vitamin C. What would you like to be seeing the sources be. Would you like that to be from oranges, like whole foods? Like where are you looking? And again, is it like animal products that you like to direct your clients to like? What is the, what's the problem with synthetic, synthetic vitamin C and what's the solution?

A (34:22)

So synthetic vitamin C, whether it's liposomal, the ascorbic acid. Ascorbic acid also comes from corn. What we're end up seeing is that it can actually make iron free floating in the system, which is not what we want. Right. We want it to be bound so.

B (34:35)

It can take unbound and, and, or sorry, it can take it from bound to going to unbound.

A (34:39)

Yeah. And so I don't love that when it comes to synthetic vitamin C, it can be quite problematic for people and they're taking these very, very high doses, which I've done before previously even personally. Cause I just thought, okay, well this is what I should be doing. The sources that I like, for sure you're looking at lemon. So lemon is great. There's actually a product I really, really love and I always tell people, just don't buy this on Amazon because Amazon's known to sell counterfeit supplements. But you know, you could look at, you know, various online retailers like that. They sell this product called Adrenal Cocktail. And it's from a pro, a brand called Jigsaw Formula. And I really like it because it has the natural whole food vitamin C. I believe it's from Acerola. And then on top of that it has the perfect blend of between sodium and potassium. And this is so important because our adrenals love sodium and our thyroid loves potassium. In fact, the thyroid, if we have very low levels of potassium, thyroid function slows down. So what you're gonna have often on women, they'll be like, you know, taking vitamin D so much vitamin D supplementations, especially even women with thyroid issues. Cause they're told, well, you know, vitamin D levels are low. I have Hashimoto's, my immune system. Yes, I understand, like, sure, you live in Canada or like, you know, the northern parts of the US I understand the, the, the frustrations of it. But you also have to understand if you're taking excess amounts of vitamin D, what you're going to end up seeing is that it can actually increase calcium levels in the body, it can reduce potassium levels in the body and slow thyroid function down. So I love the adrenal cocktail because it has that sodium to potassium ratio. It has that whole food vitamin C aspect in there as well, and the potassium, the blend between the two. But the potassium in particular, it is better absorbed through food and drink. So yes, this is obviously a potassium supplement in a powdered form. I get that. But the good news of this is that think of things like whether it's coconut water or avocados or bananas or beet greens, a lot of people throw out their beet greens because they're like, I'm such going to eat the beets. Or if when I'm making a broth, I end up washing my white potatoes really well and then I end up using the skins of the white potatoes and I use that in my broth. And the reason for that is, is because the skins are so high in potassium. So when you're making a broth, add in those potato skins because they're so nutrient dense in potassium and your, your thyroid really, really, really needs that. So even just kind of spinning back to that thyroid health and like obviously low post workout recovery, we gotta make sure our thyroid is, is functioning well. And that's gonna be very much indicative of having a healthy mineral balance. That's why oftentimes women are taking, you know, copious amounts of magnesium. And sure, their gut health plays a really big role in it, but so does those core minerals like the sodium and potassium is, is extremely important in the context of this discussion.

B (37:45)

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A (40:22)

Yeah. So ferritin levels, traditionally, you'll hear conventionally, they'll say, like, it should be between, like, I don't know, some people say, like, it has to be 50 and over. You have some doctors who are like, it has to be over a hundred. But ferritin, over a hundred nanograms per milliliter really does suggest excess iron storage. And oxidative stress. And that's not a good sign of iron levels. Low ferritin levels isn't necessarily terrible per se, but usually clinically, I'd like to see it between 20 and 50 nanograms per milliliter. And that might surprise people because they may be like, oh, my ferritin level.

B (40:57)

That is a surprise. I'm surprised to hear you say, I thought you were gonna say, like, 90 to 100. I was like, she's gonna say 90 to 110. That was my guess. No, okay.

A (41:05)

Yeah, I really like between 20 and 50. You know, I really think that that's really important because if I see ferritin levels, like under 10, I'm looking at this individual or even under 20, I'm like, this person is probably pretty copper deficient. And so it's not just about, okay, let's add copper, let's add vitamin A. This also comes down to what we were talking about before is having those foundations really set of, like, you can take all the supplements you want, but if you're really stressed out because your lifestyle sucks, you can't out supplement a crappy diet.

B (41:33)

That's true. That's true.

A (41:34)

So I think that that has to be really understood from people because I think so many people are under this impression as you just take a pill for the ill or you take a supplement to nourish a deficiency. But like, your lifestyle also very much drives deficiency. Your nervous system very much drives deficiency.

B (41:49)

That is a hard truth to hear. Can we just stop there for a minute? That is a hard. That is a hard truth to swallow sometimes. I'll say with love, of course. And I know that you're saying this with love as well. It's like the. The results that you want is in the work that you're avoiding. You know, and I will often talk about that in the context of the gym. It's like people will say, but I'm going to the gym four times a week. I'm like, you're not. You're not. You're not approaching muscle failure. If you. If your muscles are not. Like, there are other things that we've been talking about that can contribute to that. But if you have been working out four times a week and you're not seeing any change after six months, seven months, nine months, there's a problem with the protocol. And I think the same is true here. Like our tendency, you know, so many even, you know, I know there's a lot of practitioners that listen to the show and, you know, we Sort of. Sometimes there can be this. How will I categorize it? There's this like, ugh, I'm so much better than the allopathic sort of model. But then we say, oh, you're low in vitamin D. You know what? You should probably take some vitamin D. You know, so we just, we're just doing the same thing. You know, you're just like a pill for every ill. It's like, oh, you're low in this thing and we'll just give you the supplement. So you're just changing the word. Medication for supplementation. It's essentially the same thing. We're not really sort of looking at this person holistically. And I don't think many of us, even as practitioners, I mean, I've coached so many of them. Like, we really are terrible at taking care of ourselves, you know, which is why many of us become doctors. It's because, you know, it's because we're like, we are going to help. We want to help serve, we want to help heal some maybe hole in our own hearts and our own souls. But so many people, including the practitioners that you're seeing, if you're not a practitioner, you're just a Betty listening to this. Also struggle with managing stress, setting boundaries, you know, metabolizing the maltreatment that you sustained. Maybe as a child or a young, you know, adult, we all struggle with it. We're all, you know, unfortunately or fortunately part of the human race, right? It's like we're all very, very similar. We're more alike than we are dissimilar for sure.

A (43:49)

And I think that it comes down to capacity. Like, if your nervous system, if you want an 80% life, but your nervous system capacity is at about 10%, the universe is gonna go, God, Alice, Spaghetti, gods, whatever, whoever you believe in, it's just gonna go, okay, we're gonna give her 20%. But then your nervous system can't hold 20%, right? So you start to kind of wig out. So we have to kind of understand that expanding that nervous system capacity is not gonna be a fast thing. It, it, it, it's a slow thing. So if you are someone like myself who's like a type, and you're, you know, perfectionist type tendencies, you're like, but I want it and I want it now. It doesn't work that way. And so I think often with the stress component that, that depletes our minerals and our vitamins in our system, that we're just trying to out supplement is to understand the value of feeling through your emotions and also speaking to that inner child who's doing its absolute best to protect you based on a nervous system response. This neuroception that occurs when there's something that triggers you in this lifetime to show you where you are not free in this life, you know, that's triggering you. If you are just overworking or you go and you grab a drink or you know, you go into the scroll hole on social media to distract yourself from feeling through it, you know, it doesn't matter what supplement you take to be able to support that because your immune system is always going to drop because cortisol absolutely can be very corrosive in the system and ferritin levels will continue to drop because your body is always trying to pull for everything to, to support it. I always say to people like, you want to know how you know your nervous system state is? Just ask your just say to yourself, if I'm rushing for it, I'm probably not ready for it. It's just the truth. If you're rushing for something, you're probably not ready for it because your intention is like, I gotta have it. And it's, and it's, but why? What is the intent? Right? Like sure, there might be looming deadlines, et cetera, but like if you're rushing for it, you have to question the state of your nervous system. And your state of your nervous system, of course it's supported through things like protein consumption and mineral status is really, really important. Right? Which is like a lot of the stuff that we're talking about today. But absolutely, you're going to be fighting deficiencies again and again and again. If you don't actually work through that emotional psychospiritual aspect to this journey. And I actually don't believe anybody needs to heal. I know that is a very unpopular opinion, but I just don't believe it. I think that we have created this, this absolute massive obsession with healing and where women are like, I gotta heal, I gotta heal, I gotta heal. And I'm like, but what does it mean about you as a person that you need to heal? It means you probably have a subconscious belief that you're broken. How on earth are you gonna build anything from a cracked foundation? It doesn't make sense. It's not to denounce the efforts you take to heal, to eat right, to supplement, to work out. But this isn't so much of a journey of healing as it's more of an act of self love and coming back home to yourself. Right? Like what happens if you had little to no sleep, are you gonna drive yourself back in the gym because you're hustling for your enoughness or are you gonna go, okay, maybe I don't actually go as hard in the gym today. Maybe I actually just adjust my workout. Maybe I actually focus on getting more steps today. Right. It's about adjustment and fluidity. And I think that if women actually understood that more, they probably would end up being more healthier as a result. It's why I take a lot more people off supplements than you than I care to admit. Because their work isn't in the next parasite protocol per se. It's about doing a lot of that foundational and deep work first before they could even be prepped and primed for the rest of it.

B (47:25)

Man, that is the medicine. That is the medicine. That is the medicine. And I always tell women who, maybe they'll ask me on social media or I'm coaching cohorts or whatever. It's like, what do I do now? It's like, what do you think you should do now? You know, I already, you, I. Anyway, I hold the premise. I think you also hold this philosophical premise. It's like you already know what to do.

A (47:49)

Yeah.

B (47:50)

You all like in the infinite wisdom of your body, if you just quiet the pressure and the noise coming from your brain, like all the algorithms and the plans and all the things and the, you know, the eight week boot camp, all the, you know, you just quiet that and you just ask yourself what you need. She will tell you.

A (48:08)

Yeah. And even to be able to just self soothe, we like, it's. If you grew up where you had a parent who didn't know how to emotionally regulate properly, you know, there is.

B (48:20)

All of us, which is all of.

A (48:21)

Us, of course, because, you know, they were, they were doing the best they could with the knowledge that they had. Right?

B (48:25)

Yes.

A (48:25)

But the truth, the truth of the matter is, is that that becomes very difficult for a lot of us who end up growing up as adults who are trying to prove our self worth. Right. Constantly thinking that nothing is enough, whether it's in our business or whether it's in our health. It's. We're just chasing this enoughness, we're chasing this destination consciousness. And it comes down to the separation that occurs, you know, early on in life where we have our true, amazing, limitless self. That cute little baby burrito that you were at the very beginning to this, this, this version of you, of this disassociated identity that was created. I'm not enough I'm not good enough. I'm not worthy enough. And that is essentially what drives so much patterns and behaviors in individuals that that's where the ego comes in to be able to prove. See, you know, you fell off this plan C. You're not worthy enough. And it just creates this like, underbelly of stress that just keeps permeating in the background. And it's not saying that, like, I love this saying that I heard, which was, your suffering is real. But it's not true. It's not true because it's based on, it's just not based on facts. It's, it's based on this concocted version of who you think you are.

B (49:35)

It's a story. Yeah, it's a story that you're telling.

A (49:37)

It's just ultimately that's really where it comes down to. So, I mean, like, listen, there's, there's tons of things you can do for your deficiencies and stuff. Like, you know, we spoke about, you know, optimal ferritin levels and, you know, vitamin D should, all these ranges that we have as, you know, are, are outdated. They're like, outdated from like 50, 60, 70 years ago. They're based on men, you know, and they're extremely broad. So like vitamin D, for example, is like 60 to 80 nanograms per milliliter. You know, if a woman's getting her thyroid checked, she shouldn't just be doing TSH because that's a thyroid stimulating hormone. It's not even a thyroid hormone. You know, you, you want your free T3 levels, you want your free T4 levels, you want your thyroid antibodies like your thyro peroxidase anti antibodies, your thyroglobulin antibody. Like, those things obviously are important, but remember that we don't address paper, we address people, right? So it's, it's, it's extremely important. Like I was saying earlier in the podcast is that T3 is not even in the blood. It's intracellular. So when you're getting blood work done and you're like, oh, I have low T3, I mean, sure, but we have to always also rest our laurels that we're, we're speaking to a person on the other end of the screen or in front of us if you do in person practice. But a lot of their makeup is extremely important in the overall discussion. And women who have Hashimoto's in particular, and this drives me insane, is that they chase this like, I gotta reduce my antibodies narrative because I must be in remission because if I don't lower these antibodies. I am technically a failure. This is driving this underbelly pattern that they've had for a long time ago. This is not about their antibodies, I'll tell you that much.

B (51:18)

This is so well articulated, Melissa. I think that that is so true because everybody wants to get to the finish line and say, look, I put it in remission. Right. Everyone wants the destination. It's like you were saying, like, that anxiety of, like, I just want it right now. It's like, all right, you're not ready for it right now. You have to sort of go through. You have to go through the process of becoming the person that can now put those autoantibodies in remission.

A (51:45)

Yeah. And even that, it doesn't. It's. It's. I think people have to understand how the immune system works. Like, if you're taking, like, you have your two branches of your immune system, right? I'm doing this little seesaw act if you guys are listening on audio. But, like, there's T1 and there's T TH1 and TH2 now. So, for example, if somebody's at a place with their practitioner and they're taking iodine supplementation, it can actually lower one of those branches. And if it does, it can actually tend to, at first, sometimes increase antibodies. And in some cases, it can lower antibodies. In other cases, if there's immune suppression, like, for example, someone moves into a home and the winter comes on and, you know, we've closed all the windows and the home has mold, well, your antibodies can actually decrease. And this is kind of surprising to some people because it can actually suppress antibody production. So some people will be like, I'm in remission. I go, but are you? So I think, in my opinion, and even, like, if you look at Dr. Datos Kharazian's work, who's a pretty. I call, like, the forefather of, like, thyroid health.

B (52:47)

You know, he's been on the show.

A (52:48)

Yeah, yeah. It's like you need. You need a healthy immune system to even produce antibodies in the first place. So this drive to be able to lower thyroid antibodies, I think is a little problematic in some ways because they're chasing this, like, wheel of, like, lower thyroid antibodies to be in remission when remission is not necessarily like, your antibodies are at normal. Remission also is like, what does the rest of your labs look like? How do you feel? Right. Like, I feel better at 46 years old than I did at 26 years old, and I still have antibodies. Right. Does that mean I'm a failure? Hell, no. I feel fantastic. I'm working out three times a week now where I couldn't do it before because I finally cracked this. This mineral code that we've been talking about. I finally cracked the understanding of how my emotional patterns are driving my health situation, which previously I was trying to out supplement like many of the women that I work with.

B (53:36)

Right. I'd like to ask you maybe for your own personal experience and journey, and I've, you know, had the privilege of watching you over many years figure this out. But coming back to this idea of capacity and this idea of balancing, because there's a time for sympathetics, right? There's a time for, like, in the gym. You definitely want your sympathetics going. Like, you're not gonna be able to get out of the squat if your nervous system is not in that stress kind of physiology. But what has been effective for you? Obviously, understanding that this is not gonna be effective for everybody. But I think as a jumping off point or an idea starter, this is how I often will present. It's like, this is what worked for me. It may not work for you, but just kind of look at it and say, hey, maybe I'll try some of this. Maybe I'll leave some of this. What have been some of the things that you have found to be helpful for you in improving and expanding your own nervous system capacity to be able to put on the brakes, the parasympathetic nervous system, and to sort of flourish in that, but obviously not so much that you become flaccid. Right. Like, what are some of the. What are some of the things that you have done that are you. That you found very useful in. In that. In that journey?

A (54:48)

Yeah. So expanding my nervous system has been several things. Number one, you know, I'm a huge proponent of breath work. So I've been doing breath work for probably since 2019 or so, and it's been huge. I think anybody with thyroid issues should be doing breath work a thousand percent. And you don't have to be like. Like just doing this really massive deep breath in and out. It can be a very fluid type of breathing style. The other part is actually taking the time to feel through stuff. So, you know, gosh, like, my husband and I are closing on a house now, and it's exciting, but it's. It's like, you know, it can bring up a whole whack of money fears, especially if you grew up like me, where money was very scarce, and it was always like, we're gonna lose everything. We're gonna go bankrupt, we're gonna eat cat food under a bridge type, you know, narrative. So when you're in a position where you're like, okay, I'm closing on a home, all these money fears come up, right?

B (55:40)

Can I do this?

A (55:40)

Who am I doing? Oh, my God. So when that stuff has come up, I'll hear, like, I could feel my heart starting to, like, pound even, like randomly through the day where I'm talking to my husband and pretending like I'm listening to what he's saying. Poor man. But I feel this, like, this, this sympathetic drive starts to really increase. Or if something doesn't go well, you know, it starts to increase. And when those moments happen, really applying somatic practices has helped quite a bit. And so I usually couple it with a couple of things. So the first thing I. There's so many different somatic practices that people can use. I'm sure you've had people come on your podcast to talk about it. My favorite one is like taking your right hand and putting it essentially under your, like, by your armpit, rib cage area and taking your left hand and then just squeezing the opposing, like, shoulder, bicep, tricep kind of area. And I turn my head to my ear to, like, down to one side, and I look up to the other side and I do that. And it looks kind of funny, but I do that until I yawn. Because when you're in that sympathetic state, you're. Your vision just narrows in. So a, I'm doing two things in a somatic therapy. I'm doing one where I'm self soothing from a bodily perspective, where I'm like, squeezing my muscle and just giving myself some love. And the second thing is I'm also expanding my vision. So I do that until I yawn, and then I turn my head to the other side and I look the opposing side without turning my head further to get there. And I do that until I yawn. And sometimes it's 30 seconds until I yawn. Sometimes it takes up to two minutes. And when I'm doing that, I couple it with this inner speech, which I will say, I love you. We're good, I got you, you're safe. And I will say that over and over and over and over. And it's that little version of yourself who is petrified, who's trying to protect you and trying to convince you. And I think people will sometimes call it the ego, but trying to convince you that whatever you're doing isn't safe. This is unchartered Territory, which maybe it is. But, you know, when we're.

B (57:46)

When we're going, it's just your neurobiology. It's like ancient. It's just ancient parts of your brain that are trying to keep you in the tribe, what's common. You know, it's like when you look at any Walt Disney, like Simba, it's like, here's the area that's lit up. Only go to the area that's lit up. The dark stuff. Don't go there. You know, it's that kind of thing for sure. Except for the Walt Disney reference there.

A (58:06)

No, I love it. I love it. And it's so true, because it's just. We're just trying to keep ourselves safe. But when we're expanding into this new capacity, you know, of ourselves and of our life, like, for me, it's like closing on this, like, mountain home that's deep in the mountains. And I'm like, okay, well, there's going to be, you know, cougars and wolverines and more bear and everything. Like. Like, I'm gonna have to drive a quad. I'm gonna.

B (58:27)

More elk. Oh, my God. What were you. What were you. What picture did you send me? Was it elk? It was elks that were, like, just in the road. And you just sort of have to wait for them to decide to leave the road. Yeah, yeah.

A (58:38)

Five of them. Five of them. And I've been like, you know, backcountry camping where I was like, six feet from a mountain goat. Like, these things that were. I'm very, like, you know, deep in wildlife where I live. And so, you know, it's like expanding this capacity to be able to hold whatever it is that you want. And it's totally possible. But I think that those things, like, I try to welcome the triggers, even though they're so darn convincing. Like, you know, especially for those of us who are very driven in some ways, it's kind of like, you know, hustling at the altar of worthiness constantly. But you. It's always trying to ask those deeper questions of, like, well, why is this here? Right? Like, what's actually happening here? And so I think that self soothing has been so important for me personally, to understand or to move through those emotions, because I think previously I just would have worked through it. You know, I just gotta look at the numbers better. I got to figure out this strategy. I just got to work harder. I can work super hard. That's easy. For me, it's the slowing down piece. That's the other. That's the other part, it's. Even when I walk, you know, with my husband, I have to. One of the things is, like, ask yourself, how do you walk? Like, I know it's simple, but, like, I. Maybe because I was a server and a bartender before, like, I can walk with purpose, and I can walk so fast. And sometimes, you know, Eric will look at me and go, where's the fire?

B (59:59)

Yeah.

A (60:01)

You know, so it's just slowing those things down. Even from, like, washing dishes, I'll be like, yeah, just slow down. Like, just those movements is like eating. My mother would always say to me in Portuguese, right? Like, you eat like a duck. And it's just if. If just even slowing down those things and being aware of it is allowing your to be in the present state. And that is flow state. For those of you guys who are entrepreneurs, it's not something you seek. It's something that you are. That you. That you to be versus to do.

B (60:34)

I try to always think of the word savor. So you are exact. Like, you are my twin flame in that way. I am the same. I am like, walking and I. If I get. If I get up behind someone on the sidewalk that is not walking at a brisk, you know, four, I'm like, right up in them. And same thing. My husband's like, where. Where are we running to? And he's like, we're running to. We're running to the drugstore. That's where we're running to. Because I need to get a new thing of mascara, whatever it is, right? Like, whatever I'm running to. And it's. It's this idea of just savoring, which has been a very help. So I'm very sensitive to words. So when I hear the word savor or cherish, it's like, these things require a reverence. These. These require paying attention to right now. So savoring your meal, cherishing your time with your loved one, or just cherishing, you know, when I'm at the gym, you know, some I would for years, it's like, okay, I gotta punch this out quick, quick, quick, and like, in and out and then. But instead, like, savoring and cherishing the feeling in my hamstrings or quads or, you know, whatever it is I'm working. So I love what you're saying. And same thing. I'm always rushing to clean, rushing to get everything done. And it's like, and for what? At the end of the task, no one is going to be there, you know, with a timer and be like, yep, that was like 5% better than last time. Like, good on you. Like, no one. No one's there. Right. It's just. Just you.

A (61:59)

It's so true. That's why I always say if you're rushing for it, you're not ready for it. Because the reason that you're rushing for it, like, you have to question that. Right. You have to question, why are you rushing? Not because I have a deadline. I have to get this done. Sure. But like, other things. Like, why are you racing when you're walking? Like, I'm a very. I can't stand it when I'm walking and someone is like right up behind me and like, can you just walk faster and just go past me, please? Like, it drives me a little crazy.

B (62:24)

Or on the road, same thing. On the road, same thing.

A (62:27)

So it's just like being able to slow those things down to really help to. That, I believe also helps to increase your capacity greatly. That and of course, sleep. Sleep is like the magical elixir. Absolutely.

B (62:39)

Yeah. I think where I've come to land is everything that you've been talking about, like catching myself rushing and trying to slow down. I love the somatic practice that you just gave. I've never heard of that before. I don't think we've actually had. I'd have to ask my av. I'd have to ask Brock. But I don't actually think we've had somatic practitioners on the show. So that's super. We've had breathwork facilitators on. We've had breath, like breath work I've known about and love for many years, and we've had practitioners on. But somatic practice is interesting. That's an interesting category I don't think we've explored. But I. What I guess what I'm saying is I. Where I've sort of landed is I used to think that I was this self sufficient hamlet, that I was this island self governing.

A (63:22)

I was North Korea.

B (63:23)

You know, it's like, I can do it. I don't need the world's help. Like, I could do it myself. Right. Like a fool. Please don't write me if you're. You know, I don't want to get, like, not making a political statement here, but I'm just saying, you know, like, there are some societies that are very insular. And I used to think that was the best way to handle things because I wasn't gonna get hurt and I was gonna do it exactly the way that I wanted to do it, on my own timeline. And I Didn't have to report it. And, you know, in midlife, I have just realized, what a lie. I don't know where I picked up that lie. Maybe it was my own defense systems from being hurt as a young child. I don't know where I picked it up, but I really held this idea for decades that I could do it better myself. So therefore, I'm not gonna ask anybody, and if someone asks me for help, I'm gonna tell them, oh, no, I'm totally fine, because I don't want anybody to pity me. And where I've landed now is this idea of, yeah, like, I really do need help. Like, I really. I really do need the support and love of people in my family, in my very. I have a very sort of limited, you know, friend circle. But in that friend circle, they're sort of handpicked individuals. You, of course, are one of them, where I just feel like I can talk about whatever. I can talk about whatever I want, and I don't have to wear a mask. Actually, this is the other thing I'll say. I had. My friend asked me this the other day. He's like, think about all the people that you know. You know, so it's like friends and family and coworkers and, like, the coffee guy that you see. Like, everyone that you know, colleagues. And how many of them can you just totally be yourself with? Like, you have no mask. Like, you can just totally be yourself. And I ran the numbers, and it was. I was like, okay, so if we assume, like, Dunbar's number, like, 150, we know, kind of like 150 people. I have, like, five people. There's, like, five people on my list. So five out of 150. Right.

A (65:10)

God, I hope I'm one of them. You are.

B (65:12)

Yes, you are. You are one of them. I had Christina, my chiropractor, who I've known for 20 years. I see her every week for my chiropractic adjustment. I had, you know, other people, like my husband, obviously, and a couple other people on that list. And it was, like, five people I could totally be myself with. I can let my freak flag fly. I can cry. I can tell people what I really think. Like, me and my friend Christina, we talk about all the, like, unfiltered. What I think about what's going on in healthcare. It's like, we're both, you know, chiropractors, so we sort of have always been these, like, typical outsiders, right? So we both have, like, opinions on whatever, and I just. I need that, like, I. I Need that I would die without those people in my life. Like I, because everyone else, there's some kind of, some kind of something, you know, there's some kind of something that, that you, that you give with them so totally.

A (66:00)

And I think it's like it feels good to be supported. Like it feels good to be supported. Like I don't, I think because I don't know if this is past old city, city self of me, you know, where in the city it's like you can kind of remain a bit anonymous in some ways because there's just so many people.

B (66:15)

You never have to talk to anyone.

A (66:17)

You don't really have to talk to anybody. And then I move, you know, to this teeny tiny mountain town and I'm, I'm moving to an even teenier tiny mountain town now up a mountain. And it's fascinating because when you're living in these types of communities, you definitely need community. And because we are often faced with elements and animals and so you start to really realize the benefit of community and support in a very different context. But it still helps to understand like I like being supported, you know, I, I, I like that. And I can, and I can be supported versus feeling like I can just do it all. Because that do it all is just, we just have to question the intention behind it. Is it for, you know, the validation that we think that we're going to receive? Is it to fill an empty hole in some regard, whatever the story is. But when we start to, you know, untangle that and rewire, you know, how our brains are actually operating and how our bodies are the neuroception that's actually occurring, you start to step into a very, a more grounded, more easeful place. But I think so many people want ease when they don't realize that they don't really want ease because it would actually mean that they would have to let go. And for a lot of people, that's a really scary place, a really scary thing to do.

B (67:33)

Yeah. Because the devil, you know, is easier or more comforting than the devil. You don't.

A (67:40)

Thousand percent.

B (67:41)

Yeah. Yeah. Good, good, good, good. I love it. In just sort of wrapping this up, when we think about. So we've really been cracking the code on thyroid mineral deficiencies today and talking about iron and talking about some of the co factors around that. And we've also been talking about, we've sort of meandered into what I would really call like the real medicine, which is really getting to and full self acceptance. All the good, all the bad, all the fangs and all the wrinkles and all the blotches and all the things. If you could. If and if you could go back, you know, to your original diagnosis. Let's say when someone first was like, hey, there's nodules here, or these antibody levels are too high, what do you wish someone had started you on right away? Like, what would be the. You know, maybe in lieu of, hey, this supplement, that supplement, or maybe. Maybe that is part of the. The solution. What do you wish someone had told you at the beginning of your diagnosis? And maybe at. In the middle. In the messy middle when you're like, is this thing ever. Am I ever gonna figure this out? Like, what do you wish someone had told you?

A (68:47)

I wish. I honestly, I wish I could go back and just hug that version of me because she was so stressed out. I wish that I probably didn't do hormone testing right off the bat because I think, you know, I don't think. I don't think it's bad to do. I just think that it's often putting the cart before the horse. A lot of things influence our hormones. Our hormones are just chemical messengers. I probably would have really worked on a lot of the foundational stuff first. I probably wouldn't have even put on my. Put myself on a lot of supplements, to be honest with you. I probably would be doing the adrenal cocktail that I mentioned. I think that's a really great nourishing adrenal supplement. That's pretty basic. I always combine it with, like, lemon juice, water, and a little bit of now better stevia. That's my favorite stevia that I use. No affiliation, by the way, but I probably would have started there. Some magnesium. Lots of baths with Epsom salt for.

B (69:33)

That magnesium dermal support and luxuriate in it. Right? And like, yeah, you know, and, like, cherish and savor the Epsom salt bath.

A (69:41)

Yes, yes. I. I probably would have had myself consume more protein, for sure. That would have been a huge one. I probably would have started lifting weights sooner. When I. When I did actually began with lifting weights because I was trying to do, like, the two to three times a week before, and it just wasn't sitting well with my body. It was just struggling to recover what it ended up giving me. That ability to do three times a week was to do once a week for a month. And at the end of the month, I would celebrate myself like a Las Vegas showgirl. I would just be dancing. I'm like, I did it. I did it once a week for a month. And Then month two, I would do two times a week for that month until I was consistent with it. And then. And that helped my body and it also create these habits as well, I think was really, really, really helpful for me. So I probably would have had someone recommend that, but I really would have probably focused in on a lot of the emotional aspects. The breath work. I probably would have helped my, you know, me to understand what does it mean to actually feel through. Would have been something I would have really driven home. Probably is where I would have started.

B (70:52)

Yeah. If there's one thing I'll add onto that, fantastic answer. And this is just for any woman dealing with, whether it's a thyroid issue, you're dealing with body recomposition. You wanna lose weight, whatever it is, you wanna build muscle, just give yourself the grace of a longer timeline. I think that we are so hard on ourself. Back to what we were saying before, around, like, even if we get sick, it's like, okay, I'll be done in like two days. Meanwhile, two weeks later, you're still coughing or, you know, whatever it is. So I think just give yourself. So again, luxuriate in the time that you have. Give yourself all the time. If you want to lose five pounds, instead of saying, I'm going to do this in five weeks, why not just give yourself a year? You know, it just feels like so easy, so gentle. And it's something that can aff. You can build in error. Right. And that's the thing that I think that we often forget. It's like, life is really messy. Life is complicated. Life is hard. Sometimes there's things that show up that we were not planning or accounting for. And I think when you're thinking about healing or, you know, maybe to reframe, you know, kind of getting back to like homeostasis with the thyroid. Right. Finding balance again, or any or any issue, I think the timing is. Just give up the idea that the timing is gonna be like, on whatever you've said, because it's probably a laughable timeline. I've seen it enough to say this with love. Like most people, like, I wanna lose eight pounds, and I know that I can lose a pound a week. So I'm gonna do it in eight weeks. It's like, you're not gonna do it in eight weeks. I can like just times that number by at least three. You know, like, give yourself six months to lose that weight.

A (72:27)

Yeah. And really look at even the things that are. Are the emotional aspects that are preventing you from losing that weight. Like do you understand that the majority of the women that I see that are middle aged that wanna lose weight. If you look at their profile photos on social media, do you know that they're. It's not often photos of themselves, it's photos of their dogs, it's photos of their kids, it's photos of flowers and sunsets. It's not photos of them. So is the benefit of having that weight on them also has been a protective mechanism so that they can hide? Right. Because you.

B (72:54)

Oh my God. Oh, you just said something. I. Okay, my. I remember when my kids were young and I was taking them to get these like Christmas photos or whatever and the photographer insisted that I was in the photo. She was like, I just want to tell you, every mom doesn't want to be photographed, but I promise you that when your kids, you are gonna wanna have a photo with you and your kids. And I was like, oh my God, she's so right. I had never thought I was just taking pictures in my phone. It's like all my kids. And I was like, oh, this has to change right now. Like I remember. So thank you to that photographer, that newborn photographer who. Sorry, I wanna. I just. As you said that, I'm like, oh my God, that's so true. It's the sunflowers, it's the puppies, it's the family. It's her and her husband or her and her family. It's never just her.

A (73:36)

Yeah, yeah. It's really important. And so they're like eating more protein. I'm working out with these all really important things and celebrate that you're putting in this effort. But there's magic in the middle, in the messy middle. But it's also to question how has this been serving me? Because if you don't see that and you don't see the emotional aspects of this journey of yours, what you're doing may not be sustainable because you're still going to be wrapped up in the same patterns that led you to be where you are. And that's same thing as, you know, with any sort of type of thyroid issue. There's always gonna be patterns there. Because the thyroid is the area of self expression. Where are you holding back? How are you not speaking your truth? Like all of these things greatly matter.

B (74:16)

Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. Thank you so much. Melissa. Where can people find you? Tell me where people can find you if they wanna work with you. I'm sure that many of my Betties are gonna say, yeah, that really resonated with me. Where are you online? Tell us, your Instagrams, your website, all the places.

A (74:30)

Yeah. So you can find my website. It's thyroidalchemy.com on Instagram. You just look up Thyroid Alchemy. I'm there. And I'm also obviously on you on YouTube as well, which is Thyroid Alchemy. I put out videos every single Wednesday, also on Facebook. So those are kind of the biggest areas. Usually Instagram and YouTube are like my. My places where I feel like I thrive.

B (74:53)

And as someone who again, notices words, I love the word alchemy. Alchemizer. I love that word. It's like we're just gonna take something and through the power of just being female, we're going to change it into something beautiful. So thank you. Thank you for that as well.

A (75:06)

Yeah.

B (75:07)

Melissa, thank you so much. This has been such a wonderful conversation. I know that this is going to really serve my community so well. Thank you for your time, your focus, your energy today. It's been awesome.

A (75:15)

Awesome. Thank you.

B (75:17)

All right, all right. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. And I must give you the obligatory legal and medical disclaimer here. This podcast, Better with Dr. Stephanie, is for general information only, and the advice recommendations we discuss do not replace medicine, chiropractic, or any other primary health care provider's advice, treatment, or care in the consumption of this podcast. There is no doctor patient relationship that has been formed and the use and implementation of the information discussed are at the sole discretion of the listener. The information and opinions shared on this podcast are not intended to be a substitute for primary care diagnosis or treatment. In other words, guys, be smart about this. Take it with a grain of salt. Take this information to your primary healthcare provider and have a discussion with him or her to make the best choice. That is for you. Remember, I am a doctor, but I am not your doctor, and these conversations are meant for educational purposes only.