← BETTER! with Dr. Stephanie Estima | Strength, Body Composition & Perimenopause
BETTER! with Dr. Stephanie Estima | Strength, Body Composition & Perimenopause
Victim or Victor Mindset? Find Strength in Your Sensitivity with Scott Barry Kaufman PhD
00:48:21
Is feeling sensitive your superpower? Learn how to harness it with insights from Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman. Tune in for empowering strategies to enhance your emotional intelligence and personal well-being. Watch the full episode at https://youtu.be/4v1QN6TVD_8
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Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
I think taking responsibility for your whole self is a really important first step to growth. And it's just accepting that it's all part of you without judgment. You know, you can still have loving kindness with yourself, but. But not disavowing some parts that you don't like because that actually leads to a victim mindset. Often we don't blame others for the good things about ourselves, do we? Do we say, oh, I'm so talented, that's all because my, my mom. No, we say I'm talented. So humans are so weird like that. But that doesn't lead to growth. If you're going to take credit for your talent, you need to also take credit for your naughty bits.
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Dr. Stephanie Estima
It isn't about being perfect.
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It's about being better.
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Hello, my name is Dr. Stephanie Stima, and I host expert discussions with thought.
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Leaders in all facets of health, including.
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Nutrition, fitness, hormones, stress management, performance recovery, longevity, healthspan, and energy production. On this show, we discuss complex science, but then we also alchemize it into actionable everyday living. The ultimate goal with the show is to assist you in making informed decisions about your health and to catapult you.
- [01:14]
Into being the hero in your own life. All right, friends, welcome back to another episode of better with Dr. Stephanie. It's me, your host, Dr. Stephanie Estima. And today I have Dr. Sara Scott Barry Kaufman, here for a discussion all about how we can become the better version of ourselves. Dr. Kaufman is a professor of psychology at Columbia University and the director of the center for Human Potential. He's also the founder of Self actualization coaching, and Dr. Kaufman is among the top 1% most cited scientists in the world for his research on intelligence and creativity. In 2015, he was also named one of the 50 groundbreaking scientists who are changing the way that we see the world by Business Insider. Dr. Kaufman received his PhD from Yale University, where he came up with the new theory of human intelligence. He's also a host, just like I am, of the Psychology Podcast, which has received over 30 million downloads and is widely considered among the top psychology podcasts in the world. So what did we talk about today? We talked all about some of the intellectual and emotional traps that we can fall into as individuals in a world where everything is a traumatic response. And of course, that's not to say that anything that happened to you in your life was not meaningful and significant. But Dr. Kaufman talks about this idea of taking responsibility for what was without letting people off the hook. It doesn't mean that you're saying that it was okay, for some of these things to happen, but how can we take responsibility for our life going forward so that that doesn't become defining article of who we are, which I really, really, really love, because this is something that I have personally struggled with having, you know, a difficult upbringing in some ways, but I think some. In some ways, the difficult upbringing, it's like the question is, am I successful or did I become who I am today despite what happened to me or because of what happened to me? Right. So that's a very interesting distinction. And we talk about this on the show. We talk about a victim mindset versus an empowered mindset. We talk about leaning into our uncomfortable feelings and our uncomfortable emotions and even doing things that scare us as essential tools for growth as an individual. And you'll hear on the podcast I share. The first time that I got up on stage, I literally wanted to run away. I wouldn't talk to anyone. Like, my pits were, like, sweating, mouth was dry. Like, I was so nervous. And I'll. I share sort of what helped me actually get up on stage and, like, not run away like a scared little cat. So ended up getting. Getting up on stage. And we. We talk a little bit about the shift from, you know, maybe making it about yourself versus making it about other people and being in service to others. We talk also about the difference for women, how we can be more agreeable. Like our personality generally, we tend to score higher on agreeableness and how we can stop beating ourselves up for being sensitive. You know, if we are having. If we are feeling emotions, A, not being defined by them, but B, not apolog for them either. So there's a really nice sort of area in the middle, that messy middle that Dr. Kaufman was playing in. Really loved his book. When I was reading it, I found myself seeing some of my own traits, the good, the bad, and the gnarly in the book. So I really found it very useful. And what I've started doing, just as we're wrapping up this intro, is I'm leaving you a little Easter egg at the end of the show. So after you finish the show, I leave sort of my favorite moments of the show, and that's at the end. All right, so please enjoy my very robust and juicy conversation with Dr. Scott Berry Kaufman. As we age, our ability to digest.
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Complex foods like protein declines. This is because our body produces fewer enzymes, which are the proteins responsible for digesting food. Even organic foods won't provide enough enzymes to properly digest them. This is especially true if you cook any of your food because cooking and the heat kills those enzymes that are responsible for digestion. This is where supplementing with a high quality enzyme supplement can be a huge help. I personally recommend Mastzymes by Bioptimizers. It's the best in class supplement loaded with a full spectrum of enzymes for digesting proteins, starches, sugars, fibers and fats. Taking Masimes daily helps to top off your enzyme levels and replace the enzymes in your body that your body is no longer producing. This means that you'll be able to eat all sorts of delicious foods and digest them quickly and effortlessly. After you start taking Mazzymes, you may notice that you no longer feel bloated after meals.
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That's a huge bonus.
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So Dr. Scott Berry Kaufman, I am just thrilled to welcome you to the better podcast. Welcome.
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Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Oh Dr. Stephanie, it is such an honor to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
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Dr. Stephanie Estima
I really wanted to start with this idea of trauma. And you talk about this through like there's sort of a through line through the book where you talk about this idea that there's some of these dangerous, maybe misleading buzzwords we'll say. And I wanted to start with trauma. We've used this word at least. I see this online almost ad nauseam now. We have trigger warnings on posts, you know, we have empath hashtag, you know, trauma hashtag, you know, whatever it is. And maybe I'll get you to start with why this? What is wrong with using the word trauma in everything that we're doing? And what is a better reframe for us for looking at some of the adverse events that have happened to us? We can get into childhood or you know, at some point in our past. How can we begin to reframe the adverse events that have happened for our own self betterment and self actualization?
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Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, these are big questions. And first of all, thank you so much for having me on your podcast. It's a real honor and Delight. These are heavy questions and these are questions that bring up a lot of emotions and can easily go into controversial territory. So I want to be delicate and sensitive and nuanced. That's my vibe. So kind of starting with all that, I want to say that I really want the best for you. Right. Not just to you, Dr. Stephanie, but for your listeners. And often we get stuck in mindsets. I call it a victim mindset. That's really holds us back. It really holds us back in life. And to me, the way I define a victim mindset is it's a kind of state of mind you get into where you tend to blame all your problems on external circumstances. Whether it's that life dealt you a bad hand or that a person or even an entire group of people have it in for you and are holding you back. You believe you don't need to take any responsibility for your actions. Even if you're a colossal asshole, you don't need to take responsibility for that. Because of, quote, trauma, you can't stop ruminating about your past victimization and you even fixate on how to enact revenge non stop. But you don't think about constructive solutions for moving forward with your life with hope and purpose. And what I argue in my book is that that mindset, no matter who you are and no matter what you've been through, is going to hold you back from living the life you want to live. And I say you can have a trauma without being traumatized. You can be a victim without having a victim mindset. So you can also, as we see a lot today, you can have not been a victim and have a victim mindset. That's another configuration. So all these things are independent of each other. And I think that regardless of what you've been through in your life, having an empowerment mindset is much more healthy for you. And I define an empowerment mindset as one that's a very. Yes, and in an improv sort of way, yes, I've had a lot of crappy things happen to me and I have the deep reservoirs of resiliency within me that I can handle it. It just doesn't stop with the I've had bad things happen to me and so I'm going to kind of give up or become passive. And the easy thing to do is to blame the world for your problems. That's the easy thing to do. The hard thing to do is to have full acceptance. And as Irving Yalom, my favorite existential psychotherapist, says, sooner or later you have to give up hope for a better past. That's probably the most profound, profound thing that you could ever accept, really accept in your life, the giving up, the.
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Dr. Stephanie Estima
Hope that things could have been different.
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Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
In the past or that it'll ever be different, you know, barring a time machine.
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Dr. Stephanie Estima
And I think that that's. It's been my experience when I've come across individuals who have been victimized in some way, one of the. And we can say, you know, sexual abuse or maltreatment as a child. I mean, some. There's been individuals who I've had conversations with where they have not wanted to be defined by that. And in fact, they've wanted to move past that as quickly as possible. And then there's sometimes there's the alter, the alternative, which is what I think you're describing, where they almost want to stay there. They almost want to stay in that victim mindset that you're describing. And they want to let everybody know that this has happened to them and this is why they behave the way that they do, or this is, you know, the excuse. And I don't want to say excuse in like a derogatory term, but they're using it as almost a justification for why they have not followed through on dreams or, you know, goals that were meaningful to them. And so I wanted to maybe double click a little bit on victim mindset and maybe you can expand a little bit on what are some of the cornerstones, let's say like clinical signs and symptoms that, you know, for the listener, they might be able to self reflect and say, oh, yeah, I kind of. I, yeah, that's. I can see myself in that. And I'll also just say, before you answer, yes, I think that there's. There's always going to be some sort of vacillate, like there's going to be. We all exist on a continuum. It's not like you're a victim mindset or you're a Victor mindset. It's not one or the other. I think there's a lot of shades of gray. So I think that maybe as you're explaining some of the qualities and characteristics of a victim mindset, just understanding that we may be more or less those things and those things are also subject to shift as well.
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Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Absolutely. I make that very clear in the book that these are best. Think of this as a mindset, a dynamic mindset you can change throughout the course of your day. You can catch yourself having a victim mindset waiting in line at Starbucks and like, oh, that woman's Taking so long, you know, to order coffee. Yeah, yeah. You know, it can happen at any time. So it's, it's best to think of this as a mindset. And you're absolutely right. We ebb and flow. And I think it's a lot harder for people to. With these self help books, you very rarely see what I'm saying, which is, you know, take responsibility for your own narcissism and. But you, you know, the kind of books that become bestsellers are the ones it's all the ex boyfriend's fault.
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Dr. Stephanie Estima
Right, Right.
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Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
It's all, you know, like, you're badass. Everyone else are haters. Those are the books that tend to sell well. And the people who get on all the talk circuits, they say that kind of stuff. But I have some real talk in this book. I'll read some of these things. These are some of the. And I think that if we're all being honest with each other, we can fall prey to these things I'm about to read. At various parts in our lives, you tend to blame your problems on external circumstances. Whether it's that life dealt you a bad hand or that a person or even an entire group of people have it in for you and are holding you back. You attribute all or most negative outcomes or challenges in your life to your past or that one thing that happened to you. So you keep ruminating and you keep getting into patterns and instead of saying, okay, I have these patterns and these patterns need to change, you say, okay, I have these patterns. And it's all because of the way my mom treated me when I was three. And you just stop there. That's the extent of your healing and growth is like you're stuck at age three forever. You're often distrustful of people and wonder what people want from you if they give you something positive. You know, there's a certain cynicism there. You rarely give people the benefit of the doubt if they seem mean to you. So you take things personally. You take everything personally. You know, if someone, you take neutrality personally. So you're a victim of everything. So in your head. So like if you go on one date and the person is just like not incredibly enthusiastic about you, that actually means they hate you and you're a victim of this person as opposed to like, oh, well, this happens. This is called dating. Like, everyone's got to like you. Yeah, right. So you believe you don't need to take responsibility for your actions. So what you'll see is a lot of people with a victim mindset they will, they will blame their bad behavior on others always. So they'll be maybe very hostile and, and, and, and, and, and aggressive. And when they're called out on that behavior, it's never their fault. So these are just some examples.
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Dr. Stephanie Estima
So there's, there's a really great parable in the book where I, I forget her name, but she was like Aunt Ada or something and she's like something scary.
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Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Would you scared in the tool shed? Yeah. She would never leave her house because of that.
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Dr. Stephanie Estima
Never left the house, never left her room. Made everybody sort of bat like people would bring the food up to her and she would eat her, you know, what sort of had all these rules and regulations around this one defining moment in her life where she went into the tool shed, she saw something scary and then that was sort of the, you know, it was like arrested development. She just stayed there and never really moved past it, as you're saying. And there's something that you talked about that I, that I was reflecting on personally, which was people who, you know, to contrast the victim mindset that you were just describing. There's also, I believe you call it the empowered mindset or the empowerment mindset where people will ask not why questions, like why me? Why is this always happen, but what questions? So I thought maybe we could stay there for a moment and like just kind of paint the picture. The difference between those two mindsets and how we can ask different questions to sort of shift us from one to the other.
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Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah. Tasha Yerik, I want to give a big shout out to her and her research. She distinguishes between what and why questions. You know, you can ask yourself why God, why, why is this this way? And keep ruminating about that, but that's not as productive as you know, trying to figure out like what practical things can, can you do, you know, what questions keep us open minded and they keep us curious. What am I feeling right now? You know, what is this really, you know, what can I do right now in this moment, given that this thing has happened to move forward, you know, but you know what would make me feel better? You know what, what, what would make me feel better, Scott? You know, what do I need to do right now? But unfortunately we can get stuck in the why questions which are not as helpful and productive.
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Dr. Stephanie Estima
Yeah. And they're easier questions, truthfully. It's like it's easier to stay there. It's easier to, I think that the brain generally, and certainly you can comment on this yourself, but it's, it's easier to find the things that we don't like. It's easier to complain about the things that are bothering us in some capacity rather than to figure out what the solution is to them. So this is why you have people who love to complain on social media, but they don't ever often offer any solutions to the problem. It's just like, can you believe that X, Y or Z is happening, this war is happening, this person said this, this, you know, whatever, and then there's no real solutions that are offered.
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Protein. We know now for sure that it needs to be a larger part of our diet, especially in menopause. But there's many forms of protein you could be eating meats and fish, legumes, protein powders, lots and lots of choices. But most importantly, we are all also working within a budget to source that protein.
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We have to think about where we're.
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Gonna be spending our money. I personally eat a high amount of protein every day and I'm also feeding my husband, my two hungry teenagers.
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And so I really need to be.
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Cautious about how I'm spending my dollars and I switch it up. I often buy things that are super affordable that I can buy in large amounts. And there are other times that I want to spend more money on protein that I'm buying.
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But there needs to be a few.
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Key things in place before I'm willing to spend that money. The first is that I want to know that the protein source is really sustainable. And I only want to support companies that are treating animals in a humane way with ethical harvesting and supporting the ecosystem and not destroying it. The second thing I want to make sure is that the protein itself is actually premium, that it has a high protein to calorie ratio, meaning that most of the calories are actually from protein and not fat. And there is no chance of antibiotics or growth hormones or anything like that in the animal. It is always going to be packed with essential vitamins, minerals and bioavailable compounds that support energy, performance and overall health. And that is why and when I am willing to spend more money on the protein that I'm buying, the company that I'm willing to do that with is Maui Nui Venison. They harvest wild deer in a way that honors the dignity of the animal and its life and helps to maintain balance to the ecological landscape where they live and provides nutrient dense venison for my family, which is lean, delicious, and an absolute treat. Head over to mauinuevenison.com better and check out their premium collection of snack sticks and fresh starter boxes. Again, that's mauinuivenessin.com, m A U I N U I V E N I s o-n.com forward/better.
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And I'll say maybe selfishly or a little bit proudly. One of the things that we do in team. Dr. Stephanie, if you will, or hello, Betty.
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Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
I'm on team. I'm on your team.
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Dr. Stephanie Estima
Yeah. I love what we do every week is that we, at the end of the week, we celebrate as a team, what I call our glows. So gratitude learns opportunities and wins because it's actually very easy to figure out what. Okay, so I'm unhappy with this. I'm unhappy with that. But if you're unhappy, where's the learning opportunity? Right. How can we. If you didn't win, what did you learn? And then how can we also stay in gratitude, which is, in my very humble opinion, you know, this more than I would and with more depth, of course, is that it's. It's much easier to find all the things that are going wrong. It almost is a learn. You have to unlearn that. And it's. Gratitude is almost like an exercise. Like you have to. It's a mental exercise to get you there. Can it. Would you agree with that? First of all, is that something that you, that you agree with?
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Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Well, absolutely. And that's why I think of gratefulness. I use the phrase gratefulness rather than gratitude because gratitude's kind of like a feeling, a momentary feeling. Gratefulness is an orientation toward life, and you can go every day with this orientation, regardless of what's happening. You don't just have to wait for the good things to happen in your life for you to have a feeling of gratitude. You can be grateful for a real challenge you're going through as a way of learning from it and a way of growing from it. Kristy Nelson is one of my favorite writers, and she wrote this book called Wake Up Grateful. And she argues that's where she Big shout out to her. I like giving people shout outs when I can. And big shout out to her because she was at stage four cancer. And she writes in her book beautifully about how even when she's laying there in the hospital bed and she doesn't know how much long she has to live, she was grateful for every moment that she still had. She was grateful for the doctors, the nurses and how they cared for her, their kindness with her. She was so grateful for them. It really locked her into that gratefulness. So it's much better to have gratefulness as an orientation than to Just hope, you know, throughout the course of our day, we'll have something that'll give us a feeling of gratitude.
- [21:31]
Dr. Stephanie Estima
Sometimes when something bad happens to you, like all the things we were talking about, maltreatment as a child or some type of abuse or something that just was terrible for you, your reaction to it felt very. You didn't really have the skills, let's say, to process and to move through the experience. I think when something like that happens, it's also. While it might be terrible and it might be very painful, I think that it also serves, and I'd love for you to expand on this. It also serves as a template for the things that we don't want in our life. Right. So there may be. Even though it was a negative experience, it can be a really great teaching opportunity for us to say, okay, so this is. My parents did this to me as a child. I don't want to be that parent to my children. If I'm ever blessed to have that role or, you know, I had, you know, this person treated me, I never want to do so it's sometimes it's good to have almost a template for what you don't like, to help you on the path to finding the things that you do.
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Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Well. That's beautifully. That's beautifully put. I don't know how else I could add to that. Dr. Stephany, I feel like that relates in a way to, like, the importance of saying no in your life. You know, the more you get right with what you want, the better able you make peace with. Even if you piss people off by saying no, I mean, you. You probably get so many requests on a daily basis from all sorts of different things. You can't say yes to all the requests. You know, you'll lose your sense of self, Right?
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Dr. Stephanie Estima
Yes. And so let's talk about this idea and just kind of wrapping up this idea of victim mindset. One of the things I loved that you talked about in the book was this idea of responsibility and really painting that as different than, you know, accepting that, you know, it was, you know, whatever happened in your past was justified. I think a lot of people struggle to acknowledge their hardships without. Without those hardships defining them.
- [23:27]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
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Dr. Stephanie Estima
So how can we. How. So my question is, how can we validate. How can we validate what has happened to us and take responsibility for how we show up in our lives going forward?
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Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, responsibility is a big, big word. And it unfortunately gets weaponized. It gets put us. Gets politicized. This is a neutral political zone. Right. Here. So when I use the word responsibility, I'm not saying, oh, the libs need to take Morrisbile or the. Okay, so if we just make this neutral, responsibility is pretty darn important. And it's important to take responsibility for your whole self, not just the parts of you that you like. And unfortunately, the research shows that people have what I call an authenticity bias. When you ask people in psychological surveys to say, what are they most? Who's the most you? And different adjectives. People only circle the goodies. Moral, moral, kind, Good. The stuff, like all the stuff that's not so wonderful. They're like, that's not the real me. Even though I act that way sometimes, that's not the real me. So first of all, I think taking responsibility for your whole self is a really important first step to growth. Okay. And it's just, it's accepting that it's all part of you without judgment. You know, you can still have loving kindness with yourself, but. But not disavowing some parts that you know that, that you don't like and kind of. Because that actually leads to a victim mindset. Often, you know, you'll take. You'll only take credit. We don't blame others for the good things about ourselves, do we? Do we say, oh, I'm so talented, that's all because my, my mom. No, we say I'm talented because. Yeah, so, but. So humans are so weird like that. But that's not. That doesn't lead to growth. You need to. If you're going to take it. If you're going to take credit for your talent, you need to also take credit for your naughty bits.
- [25:22]
Dr. Stephanie Estima
Yeah, all the, all the shiny, sparkly bits you can take credit for, but you can also take credit for all the gnarly. All the gnarly bits that you sort of want to put in the dungeon somewhere. Yeah, I love that. That's great. And I think the other thing too, you talk about this again and I have to like, I loved your book. If I haven't said it like, I love your book.
- [25:39]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Thanks so much to me.
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Dr. Stephanie Estima
Because to your point, I think a lot of times we like to put things. We like to externalize things like, oh, the reason why I'm like this is because of so and so. Or, you know, and I think once we begin to accept our whole self, as you've been saying, I think that's when the real healing and the whole person can really emerge. And I think when you try to avoid the negative. Right. So when you try to avoid the, like the gnarly bits, you actually in a way become more attached to them. Right. Because you're trying so hard to run away from them that they almost have this, I don't know, like, almost like this demonic pull. Right. Like you. It's a self fulfilling prophecy, like I am not my mother. And then of course you find yourself speaking exactly like your mother. Right. So I.
- [26:21]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
That's true.
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Dr. Stephanie Estima
Can you expand a little bit, a little bit on that? Like why it's important for us to lean into some of those, you know, parts of us that maybe we feel shame around that we want to hide, or even, even more broadly, just uncomfortable experiences, things that, where we are unsure. We're putting ourselves in an environment where we cannot predict the outcome, why that's essential for our growth as humans.
- [26:47]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Oh boy. Oh. Abraham Maslow, one of my favorite psychologists, probably my favorite psychologist. Who are we kidding? My favorite psychologist, I wrote a whole book about him called Transcend. He says, I'm going to paraphrase him, but he says we can stay in this fear or we can move forward in growth. And we have to constantly make that choice. We have to constantly choose the growth option again and again and overcome the fear response again and again. That process is never over. It doesn't matter who you are, you have to keep actively and intentionally doing that. And sometimes that means putting us in situations that we do fear and trying to overcome the fear response or reframe the fear response into something more positive. If you're about to give a big talk and you're scared of public speaking, this feeling of nerves is actually excitement and just reframe what you're feeling. It maybe takes a lot of work, do cognitive reframing to do emotional regulation skills, but it's really worth it because if you don't put yourself in those situations, you won't grow. You can absolutely stay in your safe zone your entire life and that's fine. I mean, everyone chooses to do what they want to do. But if you really do want to grow as a whole person and gain deeper, greater depths of meaning in your life, you're going to have to go out and on a whim and choose options that may cause heartache, pain, suffering. But you know, on the other side of all that will be really deep joy and meaning.
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Dr. Stephanie Estima
Yeah, and I think it's also your interpretation too. So like the example of getting up on stage, like if your heart's racing, your mind, your brain is just sort of like a pattern recognition. It's like, oh, the heart's racing. That must mean fear. That must mean stress physiology. That must mean there's a tiger, you know, versus, you know, reframing it, like you just said, very quickly. But I think it's worth just kind of staying there for a moment. Maybe it's actually excitement, you know, but you do need to put just a little bit of space between the very quick reaction that the brain's like, heart racing, mouth is dry, you are scared, Run away. Vs oh, but I'm about to help someone in the audience. I'm about to, you know, go and give some value to people that, you know, maybe can benefit from what I have to say, you know, So I think that there's a little bit of just also recognizing that your brain. How. How do I say? This is not always working in your best interest. Like, it's just kind of going on past experiences like heart racing or, you know, thousands of years of, you know, not living in modern society where you may have a racing heart or, you know, that, like I was saying, that stress physiology that's causing you to, you know, that fight or flight system.
- [29:30]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, Yeah. I should be interviewing you.
- [29:34]
Dr. Stephanie Estima
Gosh, no.
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Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Okay, well, the fight or flight, I want to just. Yes. And that fight or flight is one system, but often we don't talk about the calm and connect system, which also exists and they are at odds with each other. You know, but if we can lean into. When our fight and flight is to the extent to which we can lean into a connection and a curiosity to what we're experiencing, we can actually activate a different system.
- [30:01]
Dr. Stephanie Estima
Yeah, I can. I can share the first time that I stood up on stage and I was about to give a speech.
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Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, the same.
- [30:08]
Dr. Stephanie Estima
I was nervous. I was. I couldn't talk to anyone. I was so nervous. Oh, I was. I wanted to cry. I wanted to run away. Everything in my body. Yeah, I wanted to get out of there. The only reason why I got up on stage was I. There was 1500 people in the audience and I said, okay, and if 1499 hate what I have to say, but there's one person, there's just one person that just needed part of what I have to, you know, part of what I have to share, then my job is done. Like, I've. I've won.
- [30:39]
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- [31:57]
Yeah. So when I took it away from me, like, it's all about me. I'm scared. What if they don't like me? What if I fall on my feet? What if I trip up? What if my heel breaks? You know, all of that stuff, when I switched it from being about me to being about them, like, being in service to the people that I was about to speak to, that for some reason, and I don't know the. I don't know why, but that. I. I've always done that. When I am about to get up on stage and I'm nervous, I always think about, let me make it all about them. And then it actually doesn't really matter. It doesn't really matter what I. If I mess up, if I, you know, I don't know, don't have the right clothes or don't have the right word or I mess up my talk, like, as long as I am doing someone is finding value in it, then I've won.
- [32:40]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, well, that's the right. I mean, that's the way. That's the way that's helpful. And it looks like you've really discovered that. But that's a real problem with vulnerable narcissism, which I talk about in my book as well, which is a topic I've studied for many years, is that we get so neurotically caught up in our own pain and Suffering that it becomes all about us. And we miss out on the moments for connection that could happen if we just got our focus outside of ourself a little bit.
- [33:14]
Dr. Stephanie Estima
And so how would you recommend someone begin to, what's the right word? Like inoculate themselves? Like, you know, what are some ways that we can like slowly expose ourselves without being like, hey, I'm just gonna get up in front of like 2,000 people and give a talk. Like maybe that's overwhelming for someone, but what are some small ways that we can begin to push the boundaries of our comfort zone? What are some, you know, maybe habits, strategies, thinking processes where we can, where we can begin to lean into an uncomfortable experience and think about our feelings, feel our feelings and begin to sort of work through maybe fears that we have. I know you were talking about, I think it was your fear of flying. Was it in the book? I believe you were.
- [33:56]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah, I overcame that. I overcame that. Well, there, there's a lot, I mean there's a lot there and I obviously wrote a whole book about it and there's no. And I also don't believe in quick fixes, right? So like, like, hey Scott, give me sentence thing to solve everything you just said. It's a whole journey. It's a whole journey. My book is divided into a whole section of all the things we become victim to inside ourselves. See, the thing is most people, when you think about a victim mindset, you think of, oh, it's all the fault of the outside world. But I talk about how you can be a victim to your emotions, for instance, that's an internal victimhood. So that's like where you take your emotions at face value and you don't create any distance with them. You are your emotions and therefore you must act on whatever you're feeling. So if you're sad, that means you are sad that if you automatically don't create any distance but you automatically become a slave to your emotions, I consider that becoming, having a victim mindset with your emotions. So it's kind of like a little twist on things. And I go through the list, I go through your self esteem. You can become a victim to your self esteem when you must always feel good about yourself. If you're at the mercy of that, you know, like you're not going to learn and grow. It's okay to have a low self esteem sometimes. Like, you know, it's okay to have moments you don't want to live there. But I'm saying you don't. You know, I, I, I'm more concerned about the person who, regardless of the feedback there and the consequences of their actions and others, they always have a high self esteem. I'm worried about those people.
- [35:21]
Dr. Stephanie Estima
Right, right. It's like the Making of a. Well, I don't know how you feel about the word narcissist or, or it's like almost like a madman. It's like, how could you.
- [35:29]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yeah.
- [35:29]
Dr. Stephanie Estima
Or like almost like a psychopath in a way. Right. It's like if you have no agree psychopath. Yeah, yeah. If there's no sort of ebb and flow, I mean, we're all going to feel good about ourselves. Like I, after that talk, I felt so, I was elated. I was, I was so proud of myself. And I got off the stage, I was like, okay, I'll do, I'll definitely do that again. And I had, you know, good response from the, from the audience too, which was really, which was really validating. But when I'm, when we're thinking about emotion, to your point, how do we, how do we, how do you suggest managing those emotions? So you're not like, I'm sad versus right now I'm feeling sad. You know, I'm depressed versus right now I'm feeling depressed or I'm anxious rather than like personalizing it. And I'll give you a little bit of a. Expansion here. When I was in private practice, I would have a lot of patients with fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue. And the way that they started talking about it was they would often. The language they used was really interesting. It was like my fibro, my chronic fatigue. Right. They would sort of intern. It became almost like a part of them. And so it became very difficult to get them excited about a better prognosis because they're like, well, my fibro does this, my chronic fatigue does that. So talk a little bit about how we can. You've already mentioned a little bit about not becoming victim to your emotions, but where we can just be maybe the observer of the emotion rather than personalizing it.
- [36:59]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Psychologists talk a lot about something called cognitive diffusing. Cognitive diffusing, which allows you to isolate a thought you have and create a distance from it. So let's say it's, I'm uncomfortable. Right? I'm uncomfortable. Well, one, one technique is to say it out loud and experiment how you say it. Diffuse your thoughts so you can tone. You want to ultimately be able to tone down your reactivity to it and interact with it more productively. So simply observe it with no agenda and say it in Some weird ways. Keep saying it out loud. So I am uncomfortable. I am uncomfortable. And then like exaggerate it. I'm uncomfortable. I'm uncomfortable. Basically change the way you say it and just say it out. Like, just keep creating a distance from that thought and your identity and who you are. You know, you want to externalize it. You want to get it outside yourself and you want to see it for what it is. Maybe also journaling has been shown not maybe journaling has been shown to be very effective in getting, you know, you want to externalize this stuff and you want to be able to process your emotions in a more reflective way and in a more constructive way. You want to non judgmentally get it out there and then decide what you want to do with it as opposed to immediately jumping in to however you're feeling. I think we all know the person who's so at the whim of their emotions that, you know, they're like, one second they're crying, the next second they're laughing, the next second they're throwing plates at you. Okay, maybe that was just an ex girlfriend of mine. But you know, I think we all know that person and I think it's important to. I'm joking, I joke, I joke, by the way. But it's just, it's so like that poor person. That poor person, right? Like, you know, you want to be able to create that distance.
- [38:46]
Dr. Stephanie Estima
I've heard the term hsp, high sense, high sensitive person.
- [38:52]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Yes.
- [38:52]
Dr. Stephanie Estima
Tell us a little bit about sensitivity. How that can be a superpower, but also maybe a burden. And you know, as we're talking about emotions and not necessarily being, you know, subject to them, what are some of the gifts of being sensitive? And I say this because I know that there's a lot of women, my audience is typically perimenopausal, menopausal women probably been told at some point in their lives they're being too sensitive. How can sensitivity be a superpower?
- [39:17]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
So first of all, the gender thing is really interesting to me. And I think that a lot of males who are HSP like me may, you know, it's not as societally accepted. Right. It's sort of like, oh, you're somehow less of a man. And if you show your emotions or if you, if you have a rich emotional life. And I think that's unfortunate. I think that's unfortunate. And so whether or not whatever the gender is, you are, if you score high in the HSP characteristics of seeing subtleties where other people might miss them, feeling things very deeply Having very strong emotions, often being overwhelmed with their emotions. It's an interesting sort of duality because on the one hand they're so open to so many things which can be wonderful for creativity, it can be like a double edged sword. But on the other hand, that openness can cause you to want to shut down as well because you're getting so much in to your system. So I would say that it can be a beautiful trait and it's nothing to be ashamed of, it's nothing to try to shun from the kingdom, but learning to manage and work with it in productive ways and not being a victim to it. Just like everything in the book. You notice a common theme in my book, right, Is like, you know, there's like a dozen things that you don't have to be a victim to in your life. And even though people act like they're victims of, you know, there are people who will be like, you know, don't you know, when you're, when you're around them, you feel like you're walking around eggshell on eggshells around them, you know, like if they're like, like they're somehow, you know, not part of the same rules that everyone else applies to in their head because they're hs, they're like, well, I'm a highly sensitive person so I don't have to, I don't have to do that or I don't have to do that or. And I would say that's not productive for that person. Like you can be HSP and take responsibility for it and not expect everyone to conform to everything, but use it and harness it in ways that make the world a better place. You know, you don't have to be a victim to these traits.
- [41:14]
Dr. Stephanie Estima
And what is the relationship between maybe being a highly sensitive person, HSP and having good EQ So we talk about iq, like asking the good questions. Oh yeah, we're getting into the good stuff now. Yeah. So IQ obviously is like, you know, intellect. It's, you know, maybe controversial and, but it's sort of like the standard measurement that we have for intelligence. But emotional quotient or emotional intelligence, how are those two related? Do we find that there's an inverse or directly proportional relationship between those two?
- [41:45]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
I think there are a lot of misconceptions about what it means to be a highly sensitive person. Having high EQ or being a kind person is not automatically coming along for the ride of being hsp. You can equally, equally be an HSP asshole. You know, like equally, you know, possible. I wrote. I wrote an article about this that's a bit cheeky, but that's how I roll, I guess. For scientific American called 12 reasons you're secretly a narcissist masquerading as a sensitive introvert.
- [42:18]
Dr. Stephanie Estima
Oh, wow. We will make sure to link to that. Yes, I will make sure to link to that.
- [42:21]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Amazing. Yeah, make sure I got the title right. But it's something along those lines. And you know, the thing that set me off with that is I saw an interview with Kanye west where he says I'm very misunderstood. I'm really just a highly sensitive introvert. And it's like, well, no, you can be highly sensitive and an asshole at the same time. You know, like, it doesn't absolve you of your asshole because you're sensitive to things. You know, narcissists are very sensitive to threats to their ego. Right. Does that mean. Does that automatically make you a kind human because you're sensitive to threats to your ego? So that's a misconception. EQ is not correlated with hsp. But if you're HSP and you also have traits of kindness, I think they really enhance each other and really create a superpower for you in a lot of ways. Even though I'm wary about using that word. But I do think the nuance there is that if you can combine these two traits that actually can be great, better than each, than any one of them by themselves, fantastic.
- [43:34]
Dr. Stephanie Estima
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- [43:45]
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- [44:10]
I love ketones because there's a wide.
- [44:13]
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- [44:47]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Does that make sense? Doctor?
- [44:49]
Dr. Stephanie Estima
Yeah. No, it makes a lot of sense and I think typically in my understanding of this and feel free to redirect me here if I'm off. I think sometimes women tend to score higher on, you know, agreeableness and they do, right? So I think that, so I think that there's this eq, this, you know, relationship or this possible, not the Kanye's of the world. Where they are.
- [45:11]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
In women.
- [45:11]
Dr. Stephanie Estima
Yeah, yeah, in women. Right, exactly. Where they can be very highly sensitive and maybe this is an opportunity for them to, when there is a lot of things coming in, to be able to maybe make sense of that better than someone who has, who has maybe a low, who has low EQ or doesn't realize why they're, doesn't know why they're feeling what they're feeling and doesn't know how to either put words to it or to be able to categorize it properly. Like what am I feeling? Why am I feeling this? Am I tired, you know, like to be able to like understand their emotional environment. So I think that there's a beautiful opportunity at least for the, you know, at least my observation, again, I could be totally wrong here where I think that women can maybe, who score higher on agreeableness can maybe, who can maybe categorize their emotional environment maybe a little bit better than someone who's score or a male too, who's lower on, versus someone who's lower on eq.
- [46:06]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Actually, I think that you made some really excellent points there. Really excellent points. And I think we need to do more research on that because there probably is a gender effect there because women on average do tend to score higher in what I call light triad characteristics. Men tend to the extremes. There's a lot more dark triad individuals, although there obviously can be dark triad women and light triad men, of course, but we're talking averages. So there's something really valuable there in what you're saying. And I think that the interaction of not being ashamed of your high agreeableness, because I think that is unfortunate when a lot of women may feel like, you know, oh, they, they're so hard on themselves, right? They're like, oh darn, I keep apologizing and I need to stop doing that. And you're, you know, like, or oh, I'm, I'm, I'm such a people pleaser. I hate myself for it, instead of thinking like that, that's like a victim mindset. Right. Instead of thinking like that, you know, being like, well this, I mean this is who I am, you know, and, and it's actually pretty. A wonderful thing if, if I harness it in the right way and if I create, if I set the. Create containers and boundaries around myself, I can combine it with my high sensitivity to really be extraordinarily creative and make huge contributions to the world. I think we need more people with these characteristics than people who are hard on themselves for having them.
- [47:26]
Dr. Stephanie Estima
Yeah. And I think this is why I'm such a fan of the book because this is written in a way that is different than anything I've read before. It really is a gentle but firm way of asking the reader to reflect internally in terms of what are true. What here is true for you. And then what are some of the ways that we can move towards, you know, the self actualization? This maslow. I know it's not a. I know we, we won't get into it today, but I know it's not a triangle or it's not a pyramid. It's more as you talk about, it's more like a sailboat. But I think that it's, it's a. It's a beautiful thing to be able to say, okay, let me call myself. Let me like check myself before I wreck myself. You know, like let me call myself out. Because we can walk through the world like walk through life blaming others, blaming external factors when we also have to take some measure of responsibility in order for us to fully sort of. And not everybody wants to take that path. That's fine. But there are people here that are listening, I know my audience very well that want to be the best versions of themselves. Want to understand maybe why they self sabotage or maybe why they can't fully go through like you know, actualize on some of the goals that they've set for themselves. So I think that this book is very. Is crucial for understanding, you know, your internal environment and maybe the ways that you have. Have maladap. Like maybe the ways that you've internalized things in a ways that. In ways that are not optimal.
- [48:48]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Well, bingo, you nailed it. And yeah, I really wanted to have you said gentle but firm. I call it honest love in the book, Honest love. Because I see two other extremes prominent. You know, either people are coddling the heck out of you. You know, like I see that on the Internet with trauma, like it's okay you have trauma. Like just sit in your bed all day and cry. It's like, okay, well, that's not empowering. You know? And then on the other side, you have the. I find them just as annoying. The pull yourself up by your bootstraps. People who are like, you know, stop. Stop complaining. You know, and just. Well, I think that both extremes are not helpful. So I wanted to kind of present a third way. A third way. I call it Honest Love. Yeah.
- [49:30]
Dr. Stephanie Estima
Beautiful. Where can people find your book and find more about you? I know that you also have a podcast, so please let people know about your podcast and all the things.
- [49:38]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Well, thank you so much. My podcast is called the Psychology Podcast. You can find that wherever you get your podcasts, and my book is now on Amazon. Wherever you get your books, you can get Rise Above. Wherever you get your podcasts, you can get the Psychology Podcast. You can go to this. You can go to scottberrykaufman.com if you want to contact me, though, you know, I'm accepting marriage proposals. No, I'm joking. I'm joking. Am I joking, though? Am I? But no, it was a real honor to be on your podcast, Dr. Stephanie. Real honor. Yeah.
- [50:04]
Dr. Stephanie Estima
Thank you so much.
- [50:06]
Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Thank you.
- [50:09]
Dr. Stephanie Estima
All right, so here is the Easter egg at the end of the episode. My thoughts and takeaways from this interview and the book at large. I actually loved this book because it's. One of the. The way that this book is written is that it really forces you to sort of look at yourself rather than blaming, you know, your environment or your past. So I really love that. And some of the. My favorite parts of our conversation were when we were getting into the. What were the qualifiers of being a victim Mindset. And in all truthness and transparency and honesty, like, I could see myself in some of those qualifiers that Dr. Kaufman was describing. I really loved the part where he was talking about asking the question what versus asking the question why? So instead of why is this happening to me? Why does this always happen this way? What's, you know, asking this question, like, what am I feeling? What is going on right now? What is the situation? And being able to ask the what in order to get to the core feeling or the true feeling, rather than this maybe more of a victim mindset, like, why does this always happen to me? Why am I almost. Why do I always have this stress? Why is there always a thousand things going on? So I really loved that. I also really liked the idea that we can do hard things, like, we can do uncomfortable things, whether that is feeling uncomfortable feelings or doing things that make us Scared or that we might otherwise shy away from as a way to expand our comfort zone. So he talked about this idea of hard feelings, you know, anxiety, sadness, shame, being able to be a bit more careful with them. Not to just shove them somewhere and try to ignore them, but to actually listen to them, spend some time with them in the same way that we might spend time with joy or happiness or elation. So I really loved that. And then the last thing that I loved, he was talking about this idea that highly sensitive people can also be jerks. I believe he used the word a hole. But, you know, you can be a highly sensitive person, and insofar as that is a. That can be positive because you are gonna be able to be able to delineate your internal emotional environment, but it doesn't get you off the H for being a jerk. So he gave a couple of examples. Kanye west, for example, is like, I'm just a highly sensitive person or an introvert. But, you know, then he, you know, treats people, you know, maybe not in the best way. I don't actually follow Kanye west, so I didn't really get the reference, if I'm being totally honest. But, you know, he's like a, you know, an introvert who doesn't, you know, or a highly sensitive person that doesn't, like, take into account other people's feelings. So I thought that those were all really, really great. And of course, Dr. Kaufman himself, self admittedly a very highly sensitive person as well, so appreciated that from a male perspective. I think males are often told to, like, suck it up, buttercup. I really like that he was vulnerable enough and open enough to say that, yeah, I'm a sensitive person. I'm a highly sensitive person. This is how that helps me govern and show up in my life. So I hope that you enjoyed this conversation and that you share it far and wide, or even if you just listen to it another time in your own journey to self actualization. And when we say self actualization, we just mean becoming the better version of yourself. Not the best version, because that's not the philosophy of the show, but becoming the better version of yourself. Take good care.
- [53:34]
Podcast Disclaimer Voice
All right, all right. I hope you enjoyed today's episode, and I must give you the obligatory legal and medical disclaimer here. This podcast, Better with Dr. Stephanie, is for general information only, and the advice recommendations we discuss do not replace medicine, chiropractic, or any other primary healthcare provider's advice, treatment, or care in the consumption of this podcast. There is no doctor patient relationship that has been formed and the use and implementation of the information discussed are at the sole discretion of the listener. The information and opinions shared on this podcast are not intended to be a substitute for primary care diagnosis or treatment. In other words, guys, be smart about this. Take it with a grain of salt. Take this information to your primary healthcare provider and have a discussion with him or her to make the best choice. That is for you. Remember, I am a doctor, but I am not your doctor and these conversations are meant for educational purposes only.