Episode 55: Dark Knight of the Soul

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Between Us – Episode 55: “Dark Knight of the Soul”

Date: July 23, 2025
Host: John Totten
Guest: Jay Baker (Pastor, writer, son of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker)

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Main Theme/Overview

This episode features a candid conversation with Jay Baker—son of the famed (and infamous) televangelists Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker—about trauma, family legacy, therapy, faith, and the evolution of personal belief. The hosts focus on the psychological aftermath of public scandal, the power of psychoanalysis, the struggle for inclusion in faith communities, and the role of doubt in one’s spiritual life. Jay discusses his personal journey, the impact of his parents' rise and fall in evangelical America, and the healing he found through analytic therapy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jay Baker’s Evangelism for Psychoanalysis

• Jay compares his advocacy for analytic therapy to that of an ex-smoker encouraging others to quit:
  • “I mean, I tell everybody, you need to see an analyst. Well, I'm seeing a therapist. I'm like, you need to go see an analyst.” (00:02–00:15)
• He describes analytic therapy as a transformative, foundational experience, distinctly different from other therapeutic approaches, almost worthy of evangelistic zeal.

2. Growing Up as a Bakker: Inside the Media Maelstrom

• Jay discusses the challenge of living with a public narrative not of his choosing, the generational differences in how his family is perceived, and the mythologizing in media representations:
  • “When you meet people who don't know who your parents were... it is refreshing... Sometimes it's harder when they don't know... I’m kind of an open book, you know, that part of my life, so we can skip that.” (04:51)
• He points out recurring inaccuracies in documentaries and dramatizations, highlighting the persistent gap between reality and public perception (05:54–06:52).

3. Trauma, Addiction, and Self-Destruction

• Jay recounts how the public downfall of his family led to social isolation, undiagnosed learning disabilities, and a turn to rebellion and substance use in his youth:
  • “One minute I was a scion of a famous family, the next I was a social leper... I gave up and did what any frustrated son of fallen televangelist would do.” (13:32)
• Addiction became a means of social survival rather than conscious escape:
  • “Drinking was the social lubricant that I needed to, like, get into the world… Until it didn't work anymore.” (14:50)

4. Shame, Grace, and Getting Sober

• Jay attributes his recovery to discovering unconditional acceptance (“grace”):
  • “When I discovered grace... God loves me if I'm a drunk... or if I'm speaking to people and preaching… It doesn’t matter.” (15:28)
• Host John Totten interprets this insight through a psychoanalytic lens, likening “grace” to freedom from superegoic “shoulds” (16:32–17:12).

5. Family, Public Scandal, and Parental Legacy

• Jay explores how his parents were scapegoated amid the televangelist scandals (07:45–11:17), and how their progressive, inclusive theology was eclipsed by media caricature and religious politics:
  • “[My parents] loved everybody… my mom interviewed an openly gay pastor who had AIDS.” (10:27)
• The crushing consequences of public shaming and the fallibility of icons become recurring themes (12:09–12:29).

6. Body Image, Bullying, and Early Self-Esteem

• Jay touches on having an eating disorder as a child, intensified by parental and public scrutiny—an early source of psychological distress (14:50–15:28).

7. Psychoanalysis: The Real Thing

• Jay’s shift from various therapies to psychoanalysis is explored. He describes “gears changing in my brain” and describes analytic work as deeply impactful, even referencing the need for “aftercare” due to its intensity (30:15):
  • “I remember sitting on the… porch… feeling like gears were changing in my brain.” (30:16)
• Analytical fit is crucial—he praises his analyst, Roy Barstness, for his Hegelian-influenced approach (32:15):
  • “It makes such a change, and because there's an end in sight... it's not just constant pills and side effects.” (30:15–32:07)

8. The Dark Knight: Batman & Trauma as Narrative

• Jay discusses the influence of Batman on his therapy, using the superhero as a metaphor for trauma, masks, and transformation:
  • “Batman’s parents are killed when he's a child… Do I remove the mask? Do I keep the mask on? That became a…theme of our sessions.” (33:36)
• His own “dark night of the soul” is explored, including a pivotal Freudian slip (“Dark Knight” with a K) (34:25–34:40).

9. Belief, Doubt, and the Value of Disagreement

• Jay describes his evolving faith, the role of doubt, and his resistance to dogmatic certainty:
  • “Doubt keeps me sane, rather than making me like a wave tossed by the sea.” (43:10)
• He speaks to holding beliefs “loosely” and fostering respectful disagreement, especially in his diverse faith community (47:29–48:57).

10. Resilience and Calling

• Despite financial difficulty and outsider status, Jay expresses tenacity and purpose, rooted in a vision of grace and inclusion:
  • “This is my life… I really believe love is infinite… I want to share that with people.” (51:49, 52:00)
• He critiques both right and left for scapegoating, and calls for patience, inclusion, and the rejection of “cancel culture” (53:16–54:57).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You have lived your whole life kind of swimming through these narratives.”
  —John Totten (20:12)

• On analytic therapy:
  “I remember sitting on the… porch of my house and literally feeling like gears were changing in my brain… becoming more comfortable in my skin and realizing who I am more.”
  —Jay Baker (30:16)

• “Once I discovered grace… I said, ‘Oh, well, God loves me if I'm a drunk… or if I'm preaching… It doesn't matter.’”
  —Jay Baker (15:28)

• “Doubt keeps me sane, rather than making me like a wave tossed by the sea. It allows me to go on.”
  —Jay Baker (43:10)

• “I have so many people telling me to give up. What they don't realize is: this is my life.”
  —Jay Baker (51:49)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:02 | Jay’s “Analyst Evangelism” and advocacy for psychoanalysis
• 04:51 | Explaining his family legacy to others; generational perspectives
• 07:45–11:17 | The Bakker family’s fall, scapegoating, and media narratives
• 13:32–14:50 | Teenage rebellion, addiction, and the consequences of public shaming
• 15:28–16:32 | Redemption, grace, and the therapeutic effect of unconditional acceptance
• 18:08–20:12 | Bullying, isolation, and social consequences of being a Bakker
• 30:16 | The transformative experience of analytic therapy
• 33:36–34:40 | Batman as a metaphor for trauma work; “Dark Knight” slip
• 43:10 | On doubt as an element of faith
• 47:29–48:57 | Building a faith community around respectful disagreement
• 51:49–52:00 | Resilience in the face of adversity; redefining calling

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Additional Insights

• Jay’s experience is one of identity negotiation—not only wrestling with his parents’ legacy, but with the labels and narratives imposed by church, media, and even therapy.
• The episode explores the power and limits of therapy, particularly psychoanalysis, for untangling inherited trauma and forging new boundaries.
• Jay’s life, as depicted here, is shaped by paradox: faith and doubt, fame and stigmatization, grace and exclusion.
• The tone is often irreverent, at times self-deprecating, but always striving for honesty and relational connection.

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Conclusion

This episode offers an unvarnished look at personal and intergenerational trauma, the transformational role of psychoanalysis, and the persistent challenge of being seen beyond one’s caricature. Jay Baker’s journey from “radioactive” preacher’s kid to advocate for radical inclusion and analytic depth underscores the necessity—and possibility—of growth through doubt, dialogue, and persistent openness.

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Transcript

[Jay Baker]

It really is the real thing. And I'm going like, you know, you almost get frustrated because everybody I tell, no, you need to go see an analyst. No, you need to go see an analyst. I mean, I tell everybody, you need to see an analyst. Well, I'm seeing a therapist. I'm like, you need to go see an analyst.

[John Totten]

You became a bit of a evangelist.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah, yeah, I did. I did. I'm almost like, you know, like, ex smoker. Like, you need a good smoker. You need to see an analyst. I'm seeing a therapist. No, that's not good enough. You need to see an analyst. You know, so.

[John Totten]

Yeah, well, we need to put you on the commercial.

[Jay Baker]

You guys should. Let's make a commercial.

[Unidentified Parent or Older Family Member]

You know, thank God for a mom and dad who will stand with a young person. I think that's so important because no matter what happens to a young person in their lives, they're still your boy, they're still your girl, no matter what happens in their life. And I think it's very important that we as mom and dads, love through anything. And how sad is that? That we, because Christians who are supposed to love everyone, are afraid so badly of an AIDS patient that we will not go up to them and put our arm around them and tell them that we care. This is an emotional interview for me.

[John Totten]

I'm John Totten and this is between us, if you don't know. Between Us is a psychotherapy podcast where my co producer, Mason Neely and I try to get at the phenomenon of what happens in the treatment room from a human interest angle. We've interviewed renowned theorists and practitioners such as Bob Stolero, Adrian Harris, Karen Morota and Nancy McWilliams and more. But something we also do is talk to interesting patients. Today is such an episode. We've spoken to filmmakers and musicians and writers. We've never spoken to a well known pastor before. I have my own conflicts about doing an episode that might seem religious in nature. But there is probably no other pastor alive who is more welcoming of these conflicts than our guest today. If you were alive in the 80s, you are probably aware of his parents, the famous televangelists Jim and Tammy Faye Baker. Their son is an apple that in many ways fell far from the tree and in some ways did not. He is a pastor and theologian who preaches acceptance, inclusivity and grace, and who in many ways is a protector of his parents true legacy. Maybe not the legacy that we all know. His mother, Tammy Faye, was immortalized in an Oscar winning performance by Jessica Chastain and In the Eyes of Tammy Faye and more recently in a musical with music by ELTON John. In 2005, our guest came out as affirming of the LGBTQ community before many in the so called emergent church did so. He has published several books on the topics of grace and the importance that doubt can play in a life of faith. Please join me in welcoming Jay Baker.

[Jay Baker]

Hello. Is this thing on? Yeah. Yeah.

[John Totten]

Good to be here with you.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah, yeah, it's great to be here.

[John Totten]

Drink it in for a minute. You're in a room full of analysts and therapists.

[Jay Baker]

Yes, I'm. I was thinking we could maybe have everybody write down what they, you know, my. My diagnosis at the end, and that would be the official diagnosis. And I would just hand it to somebody when I go see them. I thought about just showing up nude, you know, just completely transparent.

[John Totten]

When I first asked you if you would be interested in talking to me in this particular forum, my read on you was that you were excited.

[Jay Baker]

Yes.

[John Totten]

Was that true?

[Jay Baker]

That was very true. I was supposed to be at a big event for progressive Christians in Colorado and I canceled the whole thing just so we could do this.

[John Totten]

You would rather be here than there?

[Jay Baker]

Yes. Because this is. I feel like this is closer to what I wanted, my work, the direction I want my work to go in.

[John Totten]

Okay.

[Jay Baker]

More interested in analytics than.

[John Totten]

We're gonna get to it. Yeah. Most of us who are over 40 had an awareness in the 80s and the 90s of who your family was. I've told you this. To be honest, my awareness started with like Saturday Night Live.

[Jay Baker]

Right.

[John Totten]

Spoofing your parents in a pretty demeaning way.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah.

[John Totten]

When you meet people who don't know who your parents were, first of all, my question would be, is that refreshing? And second, what do you tell them?

[Jay Baker]

It is refreshing. And it's also, I mean, I have an 8 year old, one 9 year old now, I guess. 9 year old and a 7 year old and trying to explain to them my life. I mean, even last night in the car, they were like, what was it like? Did you have this or did you have that? And I was like, yeah, we did. And they're like, oh, my gosh. And then I'm like, it all ended when I was 11. And they're like, why? And I'm like, that's. We'll tell that story later. You know what I mean? It is interesting. Or people will only know my mom from, like, for a while. It was like from the Surreal Life. Or maybe they saw the documentary. So it's always just. It's different, you know, you kind of have to, like, if I know I'm talking to a younger crowd, how my. The talk I have goes completely different than if I'm speaking to an older crowd, because they all have, you know, these ideas and assumptions of assuming who I am. So it's always kind of. I don't know. Sometimes it's harder when they don't know, you know, because sometimes it's like, oh, well, I'm kind of an open book, you know, that part of my life, so we can skip that.

[John Totten]

Right. There's what people know about your family, and it's a very superficial layer of what you were living.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah. I mean, it's. Everybody has their own ideas. And even when you. When we've worked, I've worked on. Worked with some of the folks on the film. I've worked with folks on documentaries, you know, and different things like that. And, you know, and it's interesting to see where they kind of want to turn it up, you know, like, oh, this is what really. And you go, no, we didn't have those, like, Rolls Royces. You guys need to edit that out of the documentary, like, because they, like, it's not fancy, you know, it's not, like, juicy enough for them.

[John Totten]

They want to be salacious.

[Jay Baker]

And even when I sat in on the. I got to see the Elton John play, you know, and I'm taking notes, but I didn't say much because I'm like, you know what? This is positive. I'm just glad to have something positive out there about my family. But, you know, there's always, like, you know, like, they wanted to be like, oh, it was more about sexism. And just. I'm like, no, it really wasn't. You know, so it's always just kind of trying to. Either you accept how they tell the story or you tell it yourself.

[John Totten]

Yeah. Your parents were televangelists. They were part of, like, a new kind of movement in the 80s. This was not really a thing before them as much, and there was a bit of empire building going on.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah, well, what my parents were doing was really different than other churches, and I didn't realize that until I would go with my parents to visit other churches. So my parents had a Christian television station, which was a satellite. They had a satellite which was really big. And really, I think they outbid, like, cnn, so they had theirs first. But my dad also wanted to provide a place that Christians could come visit. So it was like hotels and campgrounds and, you Know, it was all this kind of like stuff he did as a kid that he wanted to make it even bigger. Kind of like a cross between, you know, a church retreat and Disneyland, you.

[John Totten]

Know, because his motivations were mixed. Right.

[Jay Baker]

I think, really, I think his motivations were to try to build something big for God and to kind of, you know, he didn't know how to fill that lack. He was sexually abused at a very young age between 6 and 16 by a pastor. And I think that conflict created a lot for him and I think he felt like he had to earn God's approval some way. So he was a workaholic. You know, people were like, oh, they stole all this money or they didn't plan to build all this stuff. And I'm like, well, you know, we didn't see him a lot and he was always at work. I mean, whenever I would go to find him, he was like building a building, you know. So I think it was his way of trying to deal with the trauma in his own life. I think they definitely lived a lifestyle that I would be like, hey, maybe you should tone it down a few notches. You know, my mom always liked the fake Louis Vuitton and all the fake stuff. You know, she always like, let's go to New York and find fake stuff.

[John Totten]

Well, yeah, I mean, there's a lot. Your mom had a whole style that has in many ways become iconic.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah.

[John Totten]

You have written about the downfall of your parents, which, if you've seen the movie the Eyes of Tammy Faye depicts a story that I had not known before, which is essentially a kind of scapegoating by Jerry Falwell, in which your parents. There was maybe some inappropriate behavior happening, but he used it to his advantage to kind of take over their businesses.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah, I mean, he had found out that my father had had an affair.

[John Totten]

Right.

[Jay Baker]

A one time affair with Jessica Hahn, which we could go into that for years if you wanted to. And so he came to my father and said, listen, this news is going to come out, the Charlotte observer is going to release it, you're going to lose everything. But if you turn your ministry over to me, you sign it over to me, get your board to resign, I'll put in my own board, we'll restore you in six months. You just let us have it for six months and then you can come back. And my mom was like, jim, don't do it, don't do it. Damn it, Jim. She always said, I thought my dad's first name was dammit for a while. Jim Middle Dammit. Jim Baker. And he did it. He was afraid there hadn't been a big scandal. And of course it would be scandal after scandal after scandal after this. Also, you know, Pat Robertson was running for president at the time. So my dad had refused to be a part of the Christian Coalition. So it was a little weird that Jerry Falwell was coming to my dad because my dad was like, well, I don't really do the political thing, but he's like, I want to save you. I'm like your dad.

[John Totten]

Well, so this gets to like, I think one of the interesting twists on your parents legacy and maybe it's something that's important for people to know about them, is that they're kind of categorized with all these other guys like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. They're very different on a theological.

[Jay Baker]

At that time, they were. I mean, my father's become more conservative in his older age and somewhat. I don't know if he's had a mental break or not. But during that time, yeah, they just, they weren't, you know, they loved everybody. I mean, my mom interviewed an openly gay pastor who had AIDS In I think, 84, 85, you know, so my parents were always welcoming of everybody. Like, I didn't really realize how what racism was until we left Heritage USA at about 11, because it was Heritage.

[John Totten]

Being the kind of.

[Jay Baker]

Was the property. So I went to school there and things. But like, it was completely like mixed. I mean, it was integrated with black, white, anything. I mean, all different folks who were a part of that. So it was never, there was never anything like women can't be in ministry or anything like that.

[John Totten]

You know, that your mom was very much visible in the ministry.

[Jay Baker]

She did two shows a day. She did the Jim and Tammy show and then she did Tammy's House Party where she did like shows on like penile implants and things like that, you know, so it was.

[John Totten]

That's true. That's depicted in the movie.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah, and that's true. I mean, it was. She believed in living life on life's terms. You know, like, this is real life. We've got to live it. You know, if you're going to be a Christian, these are, you know, you're going to have to be a realist. And so, yeah, it was a little strange that they kind of became the fall guy for all the, you know, Pat Roberts and Jimmy Swaggarts. You know, it seemed like even everybody kind of when that scandal happened, like, the right threw us under the bus, the left threw us under the Bus. Like everybody was just like, boom. Like, just needed a sacrificial lamb. And unfortunately they didn't realize is that it would just start happening over and over and over again. Because they're human beings, you know, all these guys are people.

[John Totten]

Yeah. You have talked about them as scapegoats. I like that term. It's one that has a pretty quick psychoanalytic counterpart and projection that we need something to put our bad stuff onto and down to the bone.

[Jay Baker]

Also the Bible too.

[John Totten]

Well, you're the expert there.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah.

[John Totten]

So there's this layer, there's this layer of dysfunction happening, but there was all.

[Jay Baker]

You know, I mean, also like parent money was being taken by my parents assistance and things like that. You know, my dad was in constant building mode. So when he lost everything, they said he wasn't going to finish building any of these buildings. But the things they don't talk about is that there's like a hotel that's literally 30 to 40 days away from being finished that you could fly to right now in North Carolina and look at and they're like, he couldn't. You know, he sold these things called lifetime partnerships. For $1,000, you could visit Heritage USA for like three nights and four days. And so that's why he went to prison is they said, oh, he was trying to scam people, that this would never happen. And I mean, it was so weird when we were doing this documentary and I was talking to different people, even the reporters were like, well, yeah, if the scandal not had happened, your dad probably wouldn't have gone to prison. But, you know, they don't write that, they don't talk about that. That's just not how we see things, how people want to see things.

[John Totten]

Tammy Faye Baker entered rehab after an overdose on painkillers in 1987. Jay has described this as the beginning of the end for his family's time in the limelight. In his 2011 book, Fall to Grace, Jay writes from the perspective of an 11 year old boy. The free fall was dizzying. One minute I was a scion of a famous family, the next I was a social leper with the most notorious last name in Christendom besides Iscariot. I was so radioactive that my friends were literally forbidden to play with me. My family crises were compounded by my problems with classwork. In junior high, I had severe dyslexia, a condition that would go undiagnosed until seven years later, long after I dropped out of school. It made learning virtually impossible for me. But when I couldn't Keep up. I gave up and did what any frustrated son of fallen televangelist would do.

[Jay Baker]

I rebelled. I partied.

[John Totten]

You partied?

[Jay Baker]

Yeah.

[John Totten]

And it was the 90s, and it was a good time.

[Jay Baker]

It was a good time. There was a lot of good music to see and a lot of good drugs and no cell phones.

[John Totten]

So, I mean, for you, was addiction kind of your first foray into kind of some psychological crisis? And were you aware or.

[Jay Baker]

I was so painfully introverted, and I'd had an eating disorder already because I was a chubby kid. And so my dad was always like, we're gonna be on tv. Don't feed Jamie. You know, he would be telling my. I had bodyguards and stuff, and he'd be like, don't feed Jamie. So, of course, I created an eating disorder for a long time. And so I think it was just drinking was the social lubricant that I needed to, like, get into the world. You know, everybody's like, oh, yeah, you must have been drinking the pain away. I mean, maybe unconsciously I was, but consciously I was like, I just want to be able to talk to people and feel normal. And so that's what kind of addiction and alcohol did for me until it didn't work anymore, you know?

[John Totten]

Right. And what did that look like?

[Jay Baker]

I realized, like, I would be home and my car would be home, and I had been at a club, and I was like, oh, I don't know how I got home, and did I kill somebody? You know, and why could I figure out how to use my car, but I'm sleeping outside of the front of the house because I couldn't get my key in the door. So there's a problem here. And I started feeling guilt all the time. And to be honest with you, the combination of what really got me sober was one of being sick and tired of being sick and tired, which anybody in the program knows that. But also, I thought I could never quit because I thought God hated me. And it was when I started to understand grace. Unconditional acceptance, pure acceptance. You are accepted no matter who you are, no matter what you've done. Blah, blah, blah. Amen. Yes. So when that grace. When I discovered grace, I said, oh, well, God loves me if I'm a drunk, you know, dead in the corner, or if I'm speaking to people and preaching the gospel, whatever. It doesn't matter. So when I was kind of free from that, I was able to get sober.

[John Totten]

So I think you're expressing a therapeutic insight here, which is that, like, the shame is not doing you any favors in regards to change.

[Jay Baker]

Correct. Yeah.

[John Totten]

And that once you could be more.

[Jay Baker]

Free and once you're free from the law.

[John Totten]

Right.

[Jay Baker]

You know, then all of a sudden it's not so tempting anymore.

[John Totten]

Yeah. This is, you know, this is one of the things that I. I'm always trying to take what you're saying and make. And I've met with you a few times and I'm always trying to say, well, what is that in our language?

[Jay Baker]

Yeah.

[John Totten]

And the law would be, you know, maybe the super ego or some. Some kind of inner sense of your should.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah, yeah. Don't shit on yourself. We used to have little buttons that said that in aa.

[John Totten]

Yeah, The AA folks know something about it.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah, yeah.

[John Totten]

Another thing happening at this time is your dad would have been in prison. Am I right?

[Jay Baker]

Before I got sober, my dad was in prison. My dad was in prison for five years. I mean, there's a lot there. I mean, my mom has a nervous breakdown. She overdoses. You know, she's hallucinating in front of me. We have to go to fly on an airplane because they're trying to keep it covered to get to California. So my mom's trying to get off of the airplane. Why we're on the airplane and it's just me and her. I mean, it is. I'm 11 years old. I mean, it's like nothing like this has ever happened to me, you know, Then we lose everything a few months later. Then about a year and a half later, my dad goes to prison and he originally gets a 45 year sentence and we're living in Florida and they send him to Rochester, Minnesota to be due his time. And so you got to remember, I'm going to a Christian school at the time. I'm going to this Christian Baptist school in Orlando at the time.

[John Totten]

And.

[Jay Baker]

And I'm having a harder time with being bullied by the teachers than I am the kids. So it was just this constant like, where do I go? Where do I fit in? There was just never really a. I mean, the people who embraced me the most were like. It was really funny. It was two different groups of kids. It was like these popular prepper kids and then these punk rock kids. And these were the kids that made me feel like I was human, you know?

[John Totten]

Sure. When you have walked into a treatment room before to get treatment, whether it be for addiction or, I'm assuming later on, mental health, what is it like for you to encounter someone who kind of thinks they know what your trauma is and what, what your Story is.

[Jay Baker]

I mean, I'm so used to it at this point that you just go like, oh, you know, either I explain it or I don't. It's just like, you know, are we gonna have a friendship? Are we gonna work on sobriety? Are we gonna do this together? You know, and. But, I mean, I've sat in church settings where I was like, I'm gonna go back to church. And then the pastor gets up and decides to use my parents as an example of what. What's horrible. You know what I mean? Or something like that. So you're like. And you're in a megachurch, and you're like, this guy's telling me how horrible my parents are, and he doesn't realize I'm here, or things like that. So it was like, constantly, like, I saw those Saturday Night Live things. My parents didn't want me watching tv, but of course, I was a kid, so I would sneak and I watch tv, and, I mean, Arsenio hall had count down to how many days my dad had left in prison when he originally had 45 years. You know, it's. You know, I mean, I was watching the Mendez brothers things, you know, and they're showing all their Saturday Night Live stuff, and it's just crazy how, like, cruel we were at a time. Sure. You know, for a laugh. And it was just this constant. Just like, I couldn't watch, you know, Johnny Carson, but I couldn't even watch, like, the Golden Girls because they had a joke about my mom. You know, I mean, it was just. It was everywhere. You know, there were Halloween masks of my parents being made. You know, I mean, it was like, that was just the reality I lived in.

[John Totten]

I think that one of the things that sticks with me about talking to you is that you have. It's like explaining water to a fish. You have lived your whole life kind of swimming through these narratives.

[Jay Baker]

I mean, I still have people get behind and go, like, you need to deny your dad, or you need to say this, or you need to do that.

[John Totten]

Over the decades, Tammy Faye Baker became a bit of an icon in the queer community, partly because of her personality and camp appearance, but also because of her theology of acceptance. She famously invited HIV patient Steve Peters on her show to interview him and refused the network's urgency to have a Christian psychiatrist on to talk about curing homosexuality. She later hosted a show with openly gay actor Jim Bullock, and according to some reports, she was attending pride parades later in her life.

[Jay Baker]

She was.

[John Totten]

That's true.

[Jay Baker]

Yes.

[John Totten]

I'm interested in Knowing about what your mom was really like. I think Jessica Chastain does, I think, very good job of showing us her true values that were really about loving people. You came out as a queer affirming pastor in 2005. Considering who your mom was, this seems to be predictable. But first of all, was it easy or difficult for you?

[Jay Baker]

It was incredibly difficult. I made a living speaking at all these Christian festivals during the. All these music festivals over the. You know, during the summers. And then I would speak at churches all over these places. And as soon as I became affirming, I mean, my. My board of directors were split, and I'm like, well, guys, don't vote me out until Sunday. Let me get this out. And then you can do whatever you want. But I got to say this, you know, and. And it's one of those situations where you're at this place and you're really excited, and they're just not quite there yet. You know, what are we going to do? And I did it. I mean, within 24 hours, almost every single speaking engagement I had was canceled and done. Within a month, we had a staff of seven. I had to lay off the whole staff. It was fast, it was quick. And, I mean, I talked to my parents beforehand. I talked to my mom and said, mom, this is what I'm going to do. She said, well, you don't have to say it. You could just do it. That was kind of her way of things. Just love people the way you want them.

[John Totten]

That's also how she was. She wasn't like a statement person.

[Jay Baker]

No. And I said, you know, there was this quote from Dr. King that kept haunting me that says, you know, it's not the words of our enemies we'll remember, but the silence of our friends. And I just said, mom, I can't be silent anymore. You know, I gotta say it. And she goes, well, I love you, and I'm proud of you. And even my dad, who was really concerned and disagreed with me, he's like, I think they're gonna crucify you, son. But I guess everybody needs to be crucified. And I was like, well, okay, that's great. That sounds like a good time.

[John Totten]

That was his relationship with Tammy Faye, though, right? That was how he. Well, at least that's how it's depicted.

[Jay Baker]

I don't know. I mean, they were a team.

[John Totten]

And at least the way he's depicted is that he's kind of like, tammy Faye's gonna be Tammy Faye, and I gotta let her be Tammy Faye.

[Jay Baker]

Yes. Or Else. Or else, hell or high, you know, Damn it, Jim. Happens again. You know what I mean?

[John Totten]

The way Andrew Garfield depicts him is he's kind of worried about it, but he can't do anything to stop her because she's a force.

[Jay Baker]

Right. And my dad, I don't think, was too worried about it. You know what I mean? Like, the Assemblies of God, what they were, the denomination they were a part of was very legalistic. But my parents were such. So big and so good for them that they were kind of like, well, we let them do a little bit more, you know, a little capitalism there in religion. A lot of capitalism, actually.

[John Totten]

In Fall to Grace, you write, you know, you've reached a new level of fame in American culture or infamy when there's a casting call to play you in a movie.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah. And unfortunately, I didn't make it into the Stain movie, but I did. I was a baby in that movie.

[John Totten]

Well, the depiction. And I know you take umbrage with this. The depiction is that her water broke while she was cheating on your father.

[Jay Baker]

And that's just not true.

[John Totten]

The timeline doesn't line up, but it.

[Jay Baker]

Did make me five years younger, so, you know, maybe. Fantastic.

[John Totten]

Yeah. And you've talked to me about this film coming around as being a time where you said, okay, I need to get back into treatment.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah. And I had. My best friend's a philosopher. And, you know, so the philosophers, they love you guys. They love the animals.

[John Totten]

The Irish philosopher.

[Jay Baker]

Yes. Pete Rollins. Pete Rawlins. Yeah. So they love. He goes to the Lacanian one. But I think, like, you Lacanian guys must have the easiest job ever, because it sounds like you don't talk at all. Like, you just kind of show up.

[John Totten]

And go, well, they also, like, when the breakthrough happens, five minutes in, the.

[Jay Baker]

Session'S over, they're like, it's over, it's done. They just. You come to the. They say you go to the window, and they're like, go back. I mean, I wanted to make fun of the Jungians, not the Lacanians. You can make fun of all of those.

[John Totten]

Yeah, you can make fun of them.

[Jay Baker]

I love Freud, you guys. I mean, I just can't help it. He's so easy to read. He's like a dyslexic stream, you know, so get it. And dialectic stream, you know, so that works out. And reading him, once you read him enough like an armchair person, you start to feel like you're like Sherlock Holmes and you. It's. What they didn't say is what they said, you know, I can tell by the cuff on your. And the Freudian slip on the text is even better. I love that. But, yeah, so I saw that they were making this film. So I was like, you know, I had been through every type of therapy, dialectic, behavioral therapy, every type of therapist and talk therapy, rapid eye, movement therapy thing, every medication you can imagine. And I'm like, I've got to find an analyst to talk to. I want to find an analyst to meet with.

[John Totten]

What made you want studying Freud, really?

[Jay Baker]

And having my friend Pete Rollins, we talk so much about it, and the unconscious just seemed like such a powerful thing. And I'd had a few. My buddy kind of helped me with a dream, this dream I was having over and over again. And he kind of explained it to me, and it changed, and it changed my life. And I had new boundaries in my life because I realized there was a part of me playing out where I wanted to be humiliated. And I didn't realize it. And as soon as I did, I was able to.

[John Totten]

But can you tell us about the dream?

[Jay Baker]

The dream was that my first wife was cheating on me with all of my friends. Like that at that time in my life, even though we had been divorced for years. And it was just over and over, and everybody's talking about. About it behind my back and everything. And it was just this, like, constant dream. And I don't know how he got that out of it, but he said that. And I thought, well, you're crazy. But then it was like, but I'm going to try to see if he's right about this dream. And I realized I had to. I wasn't. I was letting her humiliate me all the time, but it was me putting it out there. Like, I was like, let's see, this. This is giving her bait. And as soon as I realized that this was happening, I just said no. I started drawing boundaries in our relationship.

[John Totten]

And this is a lay analyst.

[Jay Baker]

Yes, this is a lay analyst who.

[John Totten]

Knows a lot about psycho psychoanalysis.

[Jay Baker]

He might even be mad at me telling this. But I also found out that when you guys do it for free, it's actually better. I figured out that old pay thing was just a scam, right? We don't like Freud, but we like that part, don't we? We must. Must get paid on time. Lots of money. Two people laugh, and the rest are like, shut up, Jay. I've got a BMW payment. Sorry, guys.

[John Totten]

So your friend says this. And this is like, your pathway to, like, saying, I need to get an analytic photo.

[Jay Baker]

And, you know, I really liked Hegel at the time, too. And Hagel had a lot. See, that's what happens is when you have dyslexia and you're told you're stupid your whole life in school, then all of a sudden, you start reading things that you never guessed you'd read. And you have to become. On an autodidact, which happened for me. And I had also seen another therapist who did psychoanalysis, but he also did psychiatry. And I was doing the psychiatry with him, but every time I heard about it, I was like, this is something that really is interesting me. So I stole. He let me borrow it, and I never gave it back because it became, like, this sacred object for us. But he gave me a Freud book and the one that's, like, totally anti God, too. Which one is it? I've had so many Freud. Yes. Future of Illusion. So he gave me that, and I read it, and he's like, yeah, you should read this.

[John Totten]

And you loved it.

[Jay Baker]

And I loved it. I was like, oh, my gosh, you know, I'm never giving it back. It's mine. And so I realized I needed to see an analyst. And the only way for me to deal with this is by finding an analyst. I will tell you what you guys need to do better at helping people find you, because you are hard to find. I'm like, they're all in one room. Lock the doors. Calling on my friends. Get over here quick. I found them.

[John Totten]

We're not online very much.

[Jay Baker]

No, it's really hard to find analyzers. People are like, oh, I don't know if that exists anymore. I've heard of it. You know? And you're like, yeah, so I. I agree. And you know how I found one? I was dating a therapist at the time who knew an analyst, and that's how I'm. My analyst is here. I don't know. He said he was coming. I don't know if he's here or not.

[John Totten]

He's here.

[Jay Baker]

He's here.

[John Totten]

Okay. So this is a thing that we.

[Jay Baker]

We talked about. He called. I'm fine with it.

[John Totten]

I'm an open book. His first name?

[Jay Baker]

Roy.

[John Totten]

Yeah.

[Jay Baker]

Yes.

[John Totten]

And when we were meeting for this interview, I did not know. And then a couple meetings in. You said his first name. And I go, oh, yeah. Someone who's very influential to both of us.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah.

[John Totten]

And who's very influential to this community. And you had already talked to me before I knew his first name.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah.

[John Totten]

As my former professor and the author of Core Competencies of relational psychoanalysis. I even know is influential.

[Jay Baker]

Right.

[John Totten]

Because you're not in the field.

[Jay Baker]

I know of the book, though.

[John Totten]

Okay.

[Jay Baker]

I've seen it.

[John Totten]

You had already talked to me a lot about how different it was than previous therapies.

[Jay Baker]

Yes, I mean, I. Yeah.

[John Totten]

Can you tell me how it was different?

[Jay Baker]

I guess we're doing it for the show, so I should tell you because I would be like, well, you should know. I almost think, like, if you see an analyst, you almost need, like, a support group.

[John Totten]

Aftercare.

[Jay Baker]

Aftercare. Because you guys are getting in there. Is something happening to your unconscious? Every dream I had, I knew it was a lucid dream. Every dream during treatment, I knew I was in a dream. I mean, I remember telling people, like, I have created you. You're in my dream. You know, like, so much was happening. I remember sitting on the balcony of my. The porch of my house and literally feeling like gears were changing in my brain. Like, all of a sudden I was like, I'm becoming more comfortable in my skin and realizing who I am more. And it's really hard to put your finger on it, especially if you've been through a lot of therapy. So we have these therapists who tell you to do everything, you know, oh, this is what it is. And now you're in a place where they're not telling you barely anything. You know, it's like, oh, here's a. You know, you're like, what is going on? And it was just this. I mean, I'm so grateful. You know, when I talk to analysts, I'm like, you guys got to get. Got a good lobby together. And so people will, like, put you on insurance and things like that because it's so valuable and it makes such a change, and because there's an end in sight, you know, and there's hope, and it's not just constant pills and side effects and all this stuff. I mean, it really is the real thing. And I'm going like, you know, you almost get frustrated because you. Everybody. I tell them, no, you need to go see. See an analyst. No, you need to go see an analyst. I mean, I tell everybody, you need to see an analyst. Well, I'm seeing a therapist. I'm like, you need to go see an analyst.

[John Totten]

Became a bit of a evangelist.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah, I am. I did. I did. I'm almost like, you know, like, ex smoker. Like, you need to go smoker. You need to see an analyst. I'm seeing a therapist. No, that's not good enough. You need to see an Analyst, you know, so.

[John Totten]

Yeah, well, we need to put you on the commercials.

[Jay Baker]

You guys should. Let's make a commercial for our team of like, get you guys on the insurance.

[John Totten]

I mean, it's really lovely the way you describe the kind of gears changing and you like, almost present tense awareness of the change happening.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah. And then I found out that Roy had some, like, influence, some Hegelian influence, I mean, and Freudian influence. And I was like, this is the person. And yeah, I mean, I don't know.

[John Totten]

About something that we talk to our patients about and that's fit.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah, yeah. And I'm obsessed with dialectic. The dialectic. I've often wondered if the DBT lady was also a Hegelian. Oh, gosh, guys, I know, I know. I don't let those people in here. Goodness. Those charlatans. But no, but they. That stuff is pretty cool because you get that dialectic and then you put a dialectic into therapy. It's like, whoa. So two opposites, you know, that's beauty. There's such beauty in that. And finding a higher truth that is. What is that? You know, the cat's alive and the cat's dead.

[John Totten]

You know, it's like, this is very related to your theological work, which is about, you know, as of late, the importance of doubt in a life of faith and the importance of disagreement and disagreeing.

[Jay Baker]

Well, yes. Not scapegoating the importance of dialectic.

[John Totten]

I do want to ask you about something specific from your treatment that you've told me. Tell me about the importance of Batman.

[Jay Baker]

Batman? Yes, Batman. Some of you may have heard of him. Batman's parents are killed when he's a child, and he has this great trauma. And then what he decides to do is dedicate his life to fighting crime in a way to kind of get vengeance for what happened to his parents and protect that from happening to other people. That became kind of a something that went through our sessions, a theme of that. And do I remove the mask? Do I keep the mask on? What's going on? And even, like, when I was emailing with Roy before this about doing it, and I was like, you know, I've had a few dark nights of the soul. And of course, I spelled it with. With a K, which he's like, well, it is kind of like a knight. And I was like, roy, Dark Knight is another name for Batman.

[John Totten]

That's a Freudian slip.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah. Because I have dyslexia. So I always honestly try to make sure when I write Dark Knight, literally, to not have that k. There. And that K was like, oh, we're going, we're staying.

[John Totten]

You know, the K couldn't be held back.

[Jay Baker]

No, that's what the extra K for is in Baker Boy. The. I don't know, I like to do stand up too, for my analysts. Laugh.

[John Totten]

Batman also, like, it's an important part of his story that like he witnessed his parents.

[Jay Baker]

Yes. He witnessed downfall.

[John Totten]

Right?

[Jay Baker]

Yeah, yeah. Now you're even going deeper. So.

[John Totten]

Wow.

[Jay Baker]

Well, and it's also was interesting working with Roy because, you know, there's this movie out and he's talking to me. He's like, I don't know if I should, you know, and he just kind of stayed away from it, I think, for a while. And it was just. I don't know, it was.

[John Totten]

Well, but look how that is different than what we were starting off talking about, which is this idea that everyone encounters you with a narrative in mind. Right. Everyone encounters you and they think they know your story.

[Jay Baker]

Right. Well. And then you realize that, like, I want to hate my dad sometimes, but I didn't feel like I had the right because I felt like everybody else did it. You guys like that one? I also found out that. No, but also with my mother, you know, you become this like, defender and you go like, God, he's been aided. He's been through the ringer enough. I don't really need to be. So I tell you one time, near the end of me and Roy working together, my poor dad called me. Like, we never talk. And he calls me and I'm like in a drive through, literally at McDonald's, and I'm like, oh, it's time to have the talk. Yeah, you know, I was finally free to have the talk. I needed to. Now we don't really haven't talked much since then, but I said some things that needed to be said. And even with the film, they wanted me to come and do stuff. And I'm like, well, you know, if I'm going to come do it, could you guys pay me a little bit to be there? And they're like, well, no, not really. So I didn't do it because Roy helped me see that. It was like me being on the end of their. My parents couch when I was a kid on tv. It was like I was an extra, you know, and now I was going to be an extra for my fake parents, you know, so it allowed me to have better boundaries. Now I'll tell you what, Hollywood people do not like it when you have boundaries and they think you're a Troublemaker. And you think you're all that, but, you know, it's so funny because I like punk rock and I wouldn't say like, you know, seeing an analyst made me even more punk than I was before. You know what I mean? But with purpose of health, of having healthy boundaries, but also having a boundary with a door, having boundaries with window. That's one of the things that I kind of discovered with Roy as well, is that I always going to have to have a door in my boundaries.

[John Totten]

I realized that I'm half assing acknowledging his name. And so I do just want to say. Your therapist was Roy Barstness.

[Jay Baker]

Yes.

[John Totten]

Who is a part of this community and who's been on this show and who is coming back on the show to talk about his new book. And you've given me permission to talk about him. And he's. You and him have talked about this and me and him have talked about this, and we're all good. But it's.

[Jay Baker]

I feel like the story never ends, even through our conversation. He's like, well, I'm an open book. And he's like, well, I know sometimes being an open book is painful for you, of course. You know, and that. I mean, even that reminds me who I am and work I do. And it's okay, you know, I mean, it's just. It's phenomenal work, you guys. You really should be proud of the work you do with people because there's so many of us out there who are desperately just trying to figure out what our unconscious is doing to us. And when we're able to get a little bit of that ground back, it's just, you know, there's no pill that can do that. You know, there's no easy answer. You know, there's. You're able to kind of embrace lack in a way that just is. Oh, there it is. Okay. I can embrace that, you know. Sorry.

[John Totten]

You're doing important work as well.

[Jay Baker]

Well, thank you.

[John Totten]

And I want to talk about it.

[Jay Baker]

Okay.

[John Totten]

But we didn't actually talk about your experience of the movie coming out. Right. Because you sought treatment with Roy because you had a preemptive notion that it would be important.

[Jay Baker]

Yes.

[John Totten]

To have some kind of care. You knew that this movie coming out and reintroducing your mom and your family to the world was gonna be, I don't know, difficult. Exhilarating. All of the above.

[Jay Baker]

Yes. Difficult. I felt, you know, it's gonna be in the news again. You know, I'm gonna have to talk to people about it. There's gonna be, you know, I don't have any control over what they're going to do and what they're going to say and how they're going to frame the story.

[John Totten]

Right, and what was it like for you? It's two, three years in now.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah, I mean, I went and saw it in a. They gave us a theater for me and Pete Rollins. I went saw Pete in la. He gave us a whole theater to sit in and watch it, which is bizarre. And the first scene, she does, like this movement that was very much my mom. So that was a lot. There were a couple scenes where it was like kind of a gut punch, you know. And there were other times where I was like, going, like, yeah, that doesn't. That's not there. That's. This is backwards. Or this didn't happen. You know what I mean? Everything is going on at once. And I know when I got out, because we were on a movie, like a movie company lot, you know, I walked out and I pile out. I eat mints and they're nicotine mints. Cause I pull out a cigarette and I'm smoking a pizza. Like, I don't think you're supposed to smoke here, mate. You know, And I'm like, I don't care, you know, like, I am the dark knight who will smoke. And, you know, because it was. And I called my sister and I said, I think it's good, but my sister saw it and thought it was bad. So, you know, I mean, it was like one of those things where it was just like, I don't know, it was really surreal to take, you know, and it's funny to see what society tries to project onto these people, you know, now that she's a hero now, she must be. Had been a feminist. I'm like, you know, actually, my mom wasn't much of a feminist. You know what I mean? And then people think complicated. Yeah, she was a complicated human being. And then people, what do you have against feminism? I'm like, I don't have anything against feminism. You know, I'm like, I'm just saying, this is. It was. Well, your dad did all this. I'm like, well, actually, they were a team and they worked together. I mean, I remember arguing with Jessica Chastain on the phone, like, saying like, I know who my mom is. And that's a weird place to be because you're going, like, how am I having so little to do with the story? Like, I'm in. I was just in New York to meet with Elton John and all the people with the play and stuff. And I'm literally like, I'm the only one in this room who knew my mother.

[John Totten]

Yeah.

[Jay Baker]

You know, and I'm probably the least important. Like, maybe not the least, but one of the least important people in this room right now.

[John Totten]

In regards to the capitalism.

[Jay Baker]

In regards to what? Capitalism? Yes.

[John Totten]

Yeah. It's interesting because now this narrative comes. You mix that narrative of her becoming an icon in the queer community as well. All this different kind of projection. It's positive, but it's still projection.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah.

[John Totten]

It's just very complicated.

[Jay Baker]

And she was complicated and realizing that I don't know if my mom could exist. You know, she died in 2007, and I don't know if she should exist in this time now, because we are so. We want goodies and baddies. We want good people and bad people so bad. And it's. You know, we've even, like, the progressives now have become legalistic and like, you know, tell me what you believe. Tell me what you think, you know, that you can't even walk into two different worlds anymore. My mom could be one room and one day in a room full of drag queens, and then the next day in a room full of Baptists. You know, I mean, she could do that. And nowadays it's like, we have to know what you believe here. Yes. No this or that. Are you with us or against us? And I think that makes it a little bit harder for people to kind of us to have Tammy Faye or even, like, people like, if Dr. King was around. You know, I study a lot about Dr. King. I think people would have a hard time and a struggle with him as well. You know, these people who kind of have to be between two worlds, you know.

[John Totten]

In his 2013 book Faith Doubt, Other Lines I've Crossed, Jay writes, I'm constantly battling the idea of giving up. It's not necessarily because I'm tired. It has much more to do with the fact that I'm not sure I believe anymore. My faith, religion, and beliefs have changed through the years. From my upbringing in the Pentecostal Church to now. I've changed a lot. And there's also a lot of things that haven't changed but that I've finally been able to give words to things that I felt deep down for a long time, but I've never been able to process because I was told they were off limits or outside of orthodoxy. They called this doubt. It's the sense that faith is crap. Life is meaningless. There is no God. The Bible is A fraud. Jesus was just a charismatic man turned mythological figure, if he existed at all. And the best we can do in this life is to ward off death as long as possible.

[Jay Baker]

Doubt.

[John Totten]

It was a bad word growing up. And then later, doubt keeps me safe, sane, rather than making me like a wave tossed by the sea. It allows me to go on.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah, I mean, Paul Tillich said it. I think he said, tao is not the opposite of faith. It is an element of faith. And so for me, it, you know, it's funny because you're like, oh, yeah, I used to be involved with some of that stuff, you know, but now I kind of had mystic thing, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, dude, we're all agnostics, really. I mean, you know, I have this interview that's coming up with this guy who's like, kind of a new atheist. And, you know, I'm like, man, that takes almost more faith than anything. I mean, you got, you know, I'm not one of these people. Like, there's definitely a God. There's not. Like, if either one of us could prove that, we would be, like, best sellers and millionaires, you know, like, there's no God. I have the proof. Or there is a God and I have the proof to me. I even told him. I said, I don't really want to talk about it because it's boring to me, you know.

[John Totten]

What makes it boring to you?

[Jay Baker]

Because there's no answer, you know, it's just. There's this, like. I, like, yeah, I mean, or it becomes mean, and then there becomes judgment, you know, and then we start going, oh, you know, we have to go over all the different types of things that religion has done that's bad, you know, and then we forget that there were, like, atheists who do things bad as well, you know, I mean, it just becomes silliness to me, you know, and to me, it's like, I can't, you know, I don't know if, you know, I can't tell you 100%. That's just not what I. That's not my job. My job is to help people find peace in their life and live in community and not scapegoat one another and disagree well and have hard conversations, you know, and maybe this world becomes a little bit better because we're able to have conversations and communicate with one another, and disagreeing doesn't become so taboo, you know, that's what I want to see happen. And Christianity does that for me. Good Biblical scholarship does that for me. Even scholarship that's written by atheists. It's biblical scholarship helps me, you know, I mean I'm not, you know, to me, I'm not overly sensitive about this stuff. I mean that's why I can read Freud, I can read, I can read Richard Dawkins. I mean it's kind of, he's kind of boring. But you know, you can read Dawkins, you can read that stuff. And it's not, you know, be like, okay, I mean I hear what you're saying.

[John Totten]

It's a dialogue.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah.

[John Totten]

It makes me want to tell a Roy story.

[Jay Baker]

Okay.

[John Totten]

Because my first experience of Roy Barsness was as a professor who was teaching me about the life of dialogue in Martin Buber. And there was a moment in class I went to a Christian school. I've changed a lot. Roy said something about he believes everyone is in heaven. And someone said, what about Saddam Hussein? And he said, I think he's there too. That dates me by the way. And you know, there was a palpable tension in the room with all these talks. 2223 year old Christian kids. And I went up to Roy afterwards and I said, hey, what you're saying about heaven and hell doesn't bother me, like that's fine. And he said I think you're probably someone who holds your beliefs loosely. And I thought that's the way to describe me.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah.

[John Totten]

And I think that's a great way of describing what you're talking about. If you hold your beliefs but you just hold them loosely, then you can play around with all kinds of ideas.

[Jay Baker]

And I mean as I study more theology and more, you know, philosophy and. Yeah, I mean you grow and you evolve and you change and you know, it's. To lock yourself into something, to lock yourself into certainty is horrific. It's faith. It's faith and hope, it's not certainty.

[John Totten]

Well, let's talk about disagreeing. This is something that you've been working on lately and I'm interested in kind of how you see as someone who's come out of this movement, although I think your parents were unique within this, the movement they were in. Now when I go back and look at the evangelical movement of the 80s and 90s, they seem like the softer side of it.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah, they were less turn and burn. Yeah.

[John Totten]

But it has become a dominant force in our culture. Much more so I think than it was in the 80s and 90s. And the politicalization of it has become much more concrete. Yeah, you are running this faith community where you have all types of people from all across the spectrum, yeah, it seems like something very unique for this day and age.

[Jay Baker]

Well, we have diversity of thought.

[John Totten]

Okay?

[Jay Baker]

You know, everybody's like, we want a rainbow at our church, but everybody believes. But you all believe the same thing, right? You know, we have people who are conservatives and people who are atheists and people who are liberals and progressives. And, you know, that's why I really started pushing this disagree. Well, I was doing argue well, and I was like, maybe we should say disagree because they're getting really good at arguing.

[John Totten]

What does it mean to disagree?

[Jay Baker]

Well, to be respectful, to not kick somebody out, to not put the scarlet letter on them, to not scapegoat them because they believe something different. You know, to learn from them, to learn to be patient, you know, and realize that everybody's on their own journey. You know, I didn't become an ally overnight. You know, it took time. It took people being patient with me, you know, and me asking hard questions that probably felt offensive to them originally. You know what I mean? It took time and allowing people to change over time and at least create an atmosphere where we can talk, where the ruling class doesn't actually rule over. Over us. They don't keep us divided. One of the things I worry about a lot, and I think one of the reasons I'm not why I wanted to be here more than I wanted to be at the big progressive event was because a lot of the progressives have become very legalistic with their progressive. And now they talk about like evangelicals. These are the bad guys. And I'm like, you guys are doing exactly what the evangelicals did 20, 30 years ago. You're just returning the favor and you're just taking your dogma and, and moving over into this place. And so that worries me a lot.

[John Totten]

What do we do when, you know, I come from.

[Jay Baker]

Most people don't want to do it. And that's the thing is you've got people like John Hume. Do you. Anybody know who John Hume is? Northern Irish politician. He helped bring peace to the troubles, which was the civil rights of Northern Ireland, 30 year civil war. He was inspired by Dr. King's work on nonviolence. And basically he was a Catholic. It was between Catholics and Protestants. And he said, you know, if we're going to do this, Catholics and Protestants, we have to do it together. And so of course, the Catholics firebombed his house. And people like Dr. King, who was willing to sit down with a group of people and disagree, and even when they would be this horrific to him, he was Able to realize that these people aren't the enemy. Misinformation is the enemy. How they were raised was the enemy. They're not.

[John Totten]

You kind of saw them psychologically, yes.

[Jay Baker]

And that to me is vital. But what I've realized is a lot of people are like, don't want to be that. A lot of people don't. They're like, I don't want to be that person. You know, we'd rather just throw each other away, you know, but we talk about being inclusive. We don't want to do the work. You know, like you guys are called the work, right? You don't want to do the work. You don't want to go through the process of becoming inclusive. Really, truly inclusive. And that was really hard for me. Like when seen with all the war that's happening in the Middle east and you see the contradictions there and you see the dialectic there. You see two groups killing each other. And I see people who I fought for my whole life not willing to even, you know, ignoring the suffering of others because they're going like, well, we don't want to see. We're afraid how it'll affect us here at home, you know, And I'm like, but you don't like nationalists, but you're certainly acting like one. You know, that's really tough. Those are tough conversations to have. It doesn't make you very popular to say you want to disagree. Well, because I feel like a lot of people aren't there. So it's really tough work. I mean, I'm work, you know, I do a part time work painting houses, not like pictures, not an artist. And also doing lawn work and doing my work. And that's. I've done this for 30 years. I've been doing Revolution for 30 years.

[John Totten]

And this is Revolution is your faith community.

[Jay Baker]

Is the faith community. You know, so I've been doing that for a long time, but I'm meeting with Elton John and meeting with all these people and. And then I'm coming home being like, what? I need to paint something, I need to make money, I need to pay my bills because I can barely pay my bills. I don't even know if I'll pay my rent this month. I mean, that's life. Life is insane.

[John Totten]

I think about it in the context of your parents and their story. And like I introduced you as someone whose apple falls far from the tree, but doesn't the way you think about money. And it's just different. It seems like you're intentional about some.

[Jay Baker]

Of those Things I'm intentional in the way that, like, I mean, I think about it, like, when I look at artists, you know, and I see these amazing artists who died penniless, you know, and you see these crazy musicians who just stuck with it and followed their dream. I have so many people telling me to give up. And what they don't realize is, like, this is my life.

[John Totten]

That's the passage that I just read out of your book. You tell yourself to give up, and yet you're very resilient and persistent. And I think about my own faith story and how it was like, I.

[Jay Baker]

Really believed it when my mom and dad talked about loving people and telling people that they could make it and helping people live better lives. And I don't have to say that you have to do that through Jesus. I just really believe that that's true. And I believe love is infinite. You know, God might not be there, but there is something infinite, and that's love, because we pass it on with one another. And I just. Just. I'm so passionate about that concept and finding different ways to talk about it. That within that idea of grace, that you're accepted. No matter who you are, no matter what you. You are accepted. There is a great talk that Paul Tillich gave called, you'd are accepted. Trust me, Google it. Read will even blow an analyst's mind. You'll be like, oh, whoa, that's beautiful. Because he's like, you don't have to try for anything. You don't have to do anymore. You don't have to believe more. You don't have to believe less. You are accepted by that which is greater than yourself. That's why I wake up every morning, is I want to share that with people. And I also want to have to remind myself, too, because there's times. I mean, last night I had a pretty dark night, you know, I don't want to give up. I don't want to. You know, this is so hard. This is hard work. You know, there's so many people who tell me they don't believe in me. Or like, I talk about scapegoating. They're like, oh, aren't you just scapegoating the left by giving them a hard time? I'm like, I've been with the left my whole life. I feel like that's the only group I can, like, legitimately talk to explain.

[John Totten]

And to give some framework. I know you well enough now to say that your politics are left of mine, which are pretty left. And what you're talking about is kind of hypocrisy that you see within your own wing.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah. And thinking that, oh, well, I'm part of this wing, so can we talk about it? And they're like, well, you're not part of it if you talk about it too much, you know, and it's like, it's very frustrating.

[John Totten]

You're right. That stuff isn't popular. No, it gets people.

[Jay Baker]

I could never fathom how Dr. King in his later years, like, when he was doing the Poor People's campaign and stuff, was not popular and he was talking out about Vietnam. And over, like, the past year, I've realized it. I'm just like, when you go from one focus and then you go inclusion. You open up the doors of inclusion to even people who don't seem to want to be, you know, not in that same site. You open. Open up that side of vision. I go, oh, this is why, you know, And I say King and Bayard, Rustin and people like that, because those civil rights leaders are my heroes. And John Hume, who I spoke of earlier, he's actually a civil rights leader who saw the Good Friday agreement happen and peace happened. So I have to remember these guys every time I want to give up. Even Malcolm X, you know, and the change that he had within his own work, you know, he had that kind of switch of seeing Islam in a different way, you know. And so these men encourage me not to give up when people say, what you're doing is impossible. And I just go, well, I have a few guys who I like, you know, I'm not saying I'm going to be those guys, but those guys keep me going.

[John Totten]

You know, the influence of your mother feels always kind of at the surface.

[Jay Baker]

Yes.

[John Totten]

Like, it's not that you're not your dad's kid, but her influence is.

[Jay Baker]

And it grows more as she's. As the years go by. Because there's this, you know, when she was mom, there was a different relationship. And, you know, now I go back and read some of her old books and go, oh, my gosh, we're so much alike. Like, she wrote this book called I Gotta Be Me.

[John Totten]

I Gotta Be Me.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah, it's called I Gotta Be Me, which is powerful enough at home. But she did not leave any stone unturned or leave names out or anything like that. And I was like, oh, I come from a long line of troublemakers and people who say how they live transparently, you know. And so I come by that through my mother. And we used to have these great talks you know, like the talk where I told her I was going to be affirming and say it out loud. We were at Chick Fil a, ironically having a conversation. Now, the reason Chick Fil a was.

[John Totten]

Did you get them on board?

[Jay Baker]

Yeah, yeah, they're calling me tomorrow. But the reason Chick Fil a was so close to us is because Chick Fil A's were in the food court. Originally, they were just food court places. And me and my mom spent a lot of time at the mall. I was pretty much raised playing with like Mork and Mindy. Figures when my mom was trying stuff on, you know, or playing, you know, that was, you know, when the going get tough to tough go shopping or whatever. She was a shopaholic. That was her way of dealing with things. But she was always looking for a deal, you know, and we always go deal hunting. But yeah, so we had so many great talks over dinner and things like that. But like, one of my best friends who was, when I was doing Revolution In Atlanta, gosh, 20 some odd years ago, was a Satanist. But he would come to our house for Thanksgiving dinner every year and he would bring whatever crazy girl he was dating, which was always. I'm like, so introverted, you know, and I'm like, I want everybody to be happy, you know, and he's not like some woman who's just like, ah. You know. And I was like, okay, here we go.

[John Totten]

And she loved him.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah. You know, and my mom just loved him. And she's like, oh, my kids, my babies. I have pictures where I'm taking most of the pictures where it's her and Chuck and my first wife and. And my nephews, and everybody's all together, hanging out. And she just loved people, you know, and so that was. I really dig that, you know. And that's what I continue to try to do. If any of you struggle with the idea of cancel culture, like, cancel culture is shit and we shouldn't do it to anybody because I am, what, 48? I'm about to be 49 in December. I'm still talking about what they did to my parents. Like, it's still a part of my life. You know, I could swim to the moon tomorrow and it would be like, son of Jim and Tammy Faye, blah, blah, blah, swim to the moon. You know what I mean? It's like there's no getting away with it. Even if I disprove or proved God, it would still be son of son of a bitch, I'll tell you that. But, yeah, so it's like, good Lord.

[John Totten]

Well, I think of you as their son in a different way than that. I see especially your mom's spirit kind of in your philosophy and theology. And I'm really happy for you that I know it's also been reintroducing your trauma to the world, but that you've.

[Jay Baker]

Been able to in a musical form, which is really therapeutic.

[John Totten]

Guys, with Elton John, you can set.

[Jay Baker]

Up your reenactment for your.

[John Totten]

What the man?

[Jay Baker]

Elton John. I know. I know.

[John Totten]

Elton John is writing music about your mom. It's wild.

[Jay Baker]

I know. Like, I heard it, and I was like, this can't be right. It must be another Elton John. And you.

[John Totten]

And you hugged him.

[Jay Baker]

I did. He grabbed me because he's having a hard time seeing. So I had to get really close to me and grab my arms and talk to me, and I was like. And then hugs me, and I'm just like. Cause he's Elton John to me. You know what I mean? I'm like, cool.

[John Totten]

He has narratives as well.

[Jay Baker]

Yeah. You know, So I was like, wow. And I also told him, I was like, there's two of your songs that you wrote that got me through my first and second divorce. And I listed them on repeat, and I want to thank you, so I got to do that, too. I mean, he could care less, I'm sure. But for me, I was like, I'm gonna tell him that.

[John Totten]

It's just, you know, I know that you sit back and say, what is my life sometimes?

[Jay Baker]

Yeah. I mean, I can't figure it out. I can't figure out because it's also like, sometimes I feel like I can't get a break. I mean, literally, I was talking about how it feels like using a watering can to try to put out a volcano. And someone's like, maybe it's time to just move on. You know, I get this, like, thing. Like, that was the only comment. I'm like, oh, thanks a lot for that. Yeah. You know, I mean, if. I think if maybe if I could figure out a way. But that was the hard part of growing up in that world and then having learning disabilities and then becoming an autodidact. So I can't just, like, go to a place and be like, well, hey, I've read Freud, you know, and I've read some, you know, Hegel, do you want to hire me at this school? And they're like, yeah, but you. You know, you only have a ged, you know, I mean, I sit in classes for fun, but that doesn't really do Much so it's like this struggle to just be like. I don't know. It's. It's. I don't know.

[John Totten]

Well, I've learned from you, and we're learning from you tonight. I really appreciate your vulnerability and your willingness. It takes a lot of openness to come in to a room full of therapists and analysts and talk about.

[Jay Baker]

Your.

[John Totten]

Traumas in such an open and honest way. I don't know how to express it.

[Jay Baker]

Well, thank you for having me, and thank you guys for the work you do. Do continue to do it. And, you know, sliding scale is a nice thing every now and then. Don't forget, hey, we want you here 15 times this week, okay? Is that what I pay each time I go? Do I get a voucher? I mean, that's how Roy works. 15 times a week or nothing, you know, I'm just kidding. Can I say this real quick? And you can edit this out if you want, but when I looked at it, I realized that this was an investment for me. I looked at it like, almost like college is that it was an investment because I'm a dad. You know, I got a job that I love. I have people in my life that I want to be better for in my life. You know, I wanted my life to. And so it was an investment into my life, and I really did see it that way. And, you know, and I don't regret a dime I spent doing it and any of that, because it was. Was really, really. I was able to see it as being vital, and it was vital. I just can't build you guys up enough. And I know that some of you think it's vital, and you're. Oh, I know it's vital because I've read about it. I. As a patient, I am telling you it is vital. So thank you. Don't give up and keep doing. You did it. You got into this because there was something about you that cared about people. Remember that. That's what happens to us all, is sometimes we get away from that. But you keep that little love. You find that person that just sparks something in you, and you go, you got to get in here. I'm going to help you. Because it is. I'm eternally grateful for it, and I'm just so sorry that it's not. More people aren't able to do it. There you go. Boom.

[John Totten]

J. Bake. This has been between us. Our thanks to the International Forum for Psychoanalytic Education for hosting us and to Jay Baker for being our guest. Between us is produced by myself, John Totten and Mason Neely, who also composes our music. This episode episode was engineered by Ian Kniffy. Our research assistant is Rose Bergdahl. Find us wherever you find podcasts and subscribe and if you like the show, leave a review and until next time, take care.