Transcript

Jay Baker (0:02)

It really is the real thing. And I'm going like, you know, you almost get frustrated because everybody I tell, no, you need to go see an analyst. No, you need to go see an analyst. I mean, I tell everybody, you need to see an analyst. Well, I'm seeing a therapist. I'm like, you need to go see an analyst.

John Totten (0:15)

You became a bit of a evangelist.

Jay Baker (0:17)

Yeah, yeah, I did. I did. I'm almost like, you know, like, ex smoker. Like, you need a good smoker. You need to see an analyst. I'm seeing a therapist. No, that's not good enough. You need to see an analyst. You know, so.

John Totten (0:28)

Yeah, well, we need to put you on the commercial.

Jay Baker (0:30)

You guys should. Let's make a commercial.

Unidentified Parent or Older Family Member (0:33)

You know, thank God for a mom and dad who will stand with a young person. I think that's so important because no matter what happens to a young person in their lives, they're still your boy, they're still your girl, no matter what happens in their life. And I think it's very important that we as mom and dads, love through anything. And how sad is that? That we, because Christians who are supposed to love everyone, are afraid so badly of an AIDS patient that we will not go up to them and put our arm around them and tell them that we care. This is an emotional interview for me.

John Totten (1:20)

I'm John Totten and this is between us, if you don't know. Between Us is a psychotherapy podcast where my co producer, Mason Neely and I try to get at the phenomenon of what happens in the treatment room from a human interest angle. We've interviewed renowned theorists and practitioners such as Bob Stolero, Adrian Harris, Karen Morota and Nancy McWilliams and more. But something we also do is talk to interesting patients. Today is such an episode. We've spoken to filmmakers and musicians and writers. We've never spoken to a well known pastor before. I have my own conflicts about doing an episode that might seem religious in nature. But there is probably no other pastor alive who is more welcoming of these conflicts than our guest today. If you were alive in the 80s, you are probably aware of his parents, the famous televangelists Jim and Tammy Faye Baker. Their son is an apple that in many ways fell far from the tree and in some ways did not. He is a pastor and theologian who preaches acceptance, inclusivity and grace, and who in many ways is a protector of his parents true legacy. Maybe not the legacy that we all know. His mother, Tammy Faye, was immortalized in an Oscar winning performance by Jessica Chastain and In the Eyes of Tammy Faye and more recently in a musical with music by ELTON John. In 2005, our guest came out as affirming of the LGBTQ community before many in the so called emergent church did so. He has published several books on the topics of grace and the importance that doubt can play in a life of faith. Please join me in welcoming Jay Baker.

Summary

Podcast Summary: Between Us – Episode 55: “Dark Knight of the Soul”

Date: July 23, 2025
Host: John Totten
Guest: Jay Baker (Pastor, writer, son of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker)

Main Theme/Overview

This episode features a candid conversation with Jay Baker—son of the famed (and infamous) televangelists Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker—about trauma, family legacy, therapy, faith, and the evolution of personal belief. The hosts focus on the psychological aftermath of public scandal, the power of psychoanalysis, the struggle for inclusion in faith communities, and the role of doubt in one’s spiritual life. Jay discusses his personal journey, the impact of his parents' rise and fall in evangelical America, and the healing he found through analytic therapy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jay Baker’s Evangelism for Psychoanalysis

Jay compares his advocacy for analytic therapy to that of an ex-smoker encouraging others to quit:
- “I mean, I tell everybody, you need to see an analyst. Well, I'm seeing a therapist. I'm like, you need to go see an analyst.” (00:02–00:15)
He describes analytic therapy as a transformative, foundational experience, distinctly different from other therapeutic approaches, almost worthy of evangelistic zeal.

2. Growing Up as a Bakker: Inside the Media Maelstrom

Jay discusses the challenge of living with a public narrative not of his choosing, the generational differences in how his family is perceived, and the mythologizing in media representations:
- “When you meet people who don't know who your parents were... it is refreshing... Sometimes it's harder when they don't know... I’m kind of an open book, you know, that part of my life, so we can skip that.” (04:51)
He points out recurring inaccuracies in documentaries and dramatizations, highlighting the persistent gap between reality and public perception (05:54–06:52).

3. Trauma, Addiction, and Self-Destruction

Jay recounts how the public downfall of his family led to social isolation, undiagnosed learning disabilities, and a turn to rebellion and substance use in his youth:
- “One minute I was a scion of a famous family, the next I was a social leper... I gave up and did what any frustrated son of fallen televangelist would do.” (13:32)
Addiction became a means of social survival rather than conscious escape:
- “Drinking was the social lubricant that I needed to, like, get into the world… Until it didn't work anymore.” (14:50)

4. Shame, Grace, and Getting Sober

Jay attributes his recovery to discovering unconditional acceptance (“grace”):
- “When I discovered grace... God loves me if I'm a drunk... or if I'm speaking to people and preaching… It doesn’t matter.” (15:28)
Host John Totten interprets this insight through a psychoanalytic lens, likening “grace” to freedom from superegoic “shoulds” (16:32–17:12).

5. Family, Public Scandal, and Parental Legacy

Jay explores how his parents were scapegoated amid the televangelist scandals (07:45–11:17), and how their progressive, inclusive theology was eclipsed by media caricature and religious politics:
- “[My parents] loved everybody… my mom interviewed an openly gay pastor who had AIDS.” (10:27)
The crushing consequences of public shaming and the fallibility of icons become recurring themes (12:09–12:29).

6. Body Image, Bullying, and Early Self-Esteem

Jay touches on having an eating disorder as a child, intensified by parental and public scrutiny—an early source of psychological distress (14:50–15:28).

7. Psychoanalysis: The Real Thing

Jay’s shift from various therapies to psychoanalysis is explored. He describes “gears changing in my brain” and describes analytic work as deeply impactful, even referencing the need for “aftercare” due to its intensity (30:15):
- “I remember sitting on the… porch… feeling like gears were changing in my brain.” (30:16)
Analytical fit is crucial—he praises his analyst, Roy Barstness, for his Hegelian-influenced approach (32:15):
- “It makes such a change, and because there's an end in sight... it's not just constant pills and side effects.” (30:15–32:07)

8. The Dark Knight: Batman & Trauma as Narrative

Jay discusses the influence of Batman on his therapy, using the superhero as a metaphor for trauma, masks, and transformation:
- “Batman’s parents are killed when he's a child… Do I remove the mask? Do I keep the mask on? That became a…theme of our sessions.” (33:36)
His own “dark night of the soul” is explored, including a pivotal Freudian slip (“Dark Knight” with a K) (34:25–34:40).

9. Belief, Doubt, and the Value of Disagreement

Jay describes his evolving faith, the role of doubt, and his resistance to dogmatic certainty:
- “Doubt keeps me sane, rather than making me like a wave tossed by the sea.” (43:10)
He speaks to holding beliefs “loosely” and fostering respectful disagreement, especially in his diverse faith community (47:29–48:57).

10. Resilience and Calling

Despite financial difficulty and outsider status, Jay expresses tenacity and purpose, rooted in a vision of grace and inclusion:
- “This is my life… I really believe love is infinite… I want to share that with people.” (51:49, 52:00)
He critiques both right and left for scapegoating, and calls for patience, inclusion, and the rejection of “cancel culture” (53:16–54:57).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“You have lived your whole life kind of swimming through these narratives.”
—John Totten (20:12)
On analytic therapy:
“I remember sitting on the… porch of my house and literally feeling like gears were changing in my brain… becoming more comfortable in my skin and realizing who I am more.”
—Jay Baker (30:16)
“Once I discovered grace… I said, ‘Oh, well, God loves me if I'm a drunk… or if I'm preaching… It doesn't matter.’”
—Jay Baker (15:28)
“Doubt keeps me sane, rather than making me like a wave tossed by the sea. It allows me to go on.”
—Jay Baker (43:10)
“I have so many people telling me to give up. What they don't realize is: this is my life.”
—Jay Baker (51:49)

Timestamps for Key Segments

00:02 | Jay’s “Analyst Evangelism” and advocacy for psychoanalysis
04:51 | Explaining his family legacy to others; generational perspectives
07:45–11:17 | The Bakker family’s fall, scapegoating, and media narratives
13:32–14:50 | Teenage rebellion, addiction, and the consequences of public shaming
15:28–16:32 | Redemption, grace, and the therapeutic effect of unconditional acceptance
18:08–20:12 | Bullying, isolation, and social consequences of being a Bakker
30:16 | The transformative experience of analytic therapy
33:36–34:40 | Batman as a metaphor for trauma work; “Dark Knight” slip
43:10 | On doubt as an element of faith
47:29–48:57 | Building a faith community around respectful disagreement
51:49–52:00 | Resilience in the face of adversity; redefining calling

Additional Insights

Jay’s experience is one of identity negotiation—not only wrestling with his parents’ legacy, but with the labels and narratives imposed by church, media, and even therapy.
The episode explores the power and limits of therapy, particularly psychoanalysis, for untangling inherited trauma and forging new boundaries.
Jay’s life, as depicted here, is shaped by paradox: faith and doubt, fame and stigmatization, grace and exclusion.
The tone is often irreverent, at times self-deprecating, but always striving for honesty and relational connection.

Conclusion

This episode offers an unvarnished look at personal and intergenerational trauma, the transformational role of psychoanalysis, and the persistent challenge of being seen beyond one’s caricature. Jay Baker’s journey from “radioactive” preacher’s kid to advocate for radical inclusion and analytic depth underscores the necessity—and possibility—of growth through doubt, dialogue, and persistent openness.

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Episode 55: Dark Knight of the Soul