Podcast Summary: Between Us – Episode 57: "What's Mine Is Yours"

Podcast: Between Us: A Psychotherapy Podcast
Host(s): John Totten, Mason Neely
Guest: Tony Bass
Date: August 20, 2025

Episode Overview

In this illuminating episode, host John Totten sits down with Tony Bass—distinguished psychotherapist, writer, and president of the Stephen Mitchell Relational Study Center—to explore the rich, complex interplay between therapist and patient, and especially the concept of mutual unconscious experience in therapy. Drawing upon decades of clinical experience, relational psychoanalytic theory, and personal stories, Bass reflects on the evolution of his clinical orientation from family systems to relational psychoanalysis, the foundational early days of the "big R" Relational school, and the enduring influence of Stephen Mitchell. The episode delves deeply into the themes of subjectivity, mutuality, sameness and otherness, and what it means to "find oneself" in the therapeutic dyad.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Power and Enrichment of Mutual Discovery in Therapy

• Tony Bass's Ongoing Passion for Clinical Work:

  "That lens leads to really interesting and surprising discoveries that are very enriching, you know, for both of us... I still get up in the morning, excited to be going to the office."
  (Tony Bass, 00:00; 74:38)
  Bass emphasizes the enduring excitement and enrichment found in deep, mutual explorations with patients.

2. Defining Relational Psychoanalysis and Meta-Theory

• Relational Psychoanalysis through the Lens of Clinical Practice:
  Bass distinguishes his own focus on clinical work from purely theoretical or historical contributions, highlighting the shift from Freudian drive theory to an emphasis on mutuality and the dialog between two subjectivities in the room.

• Context of Meta-Theory in Psychoanalysis:
  John Totten explores the importance of meta-theory (the theory of theories) with Bass, referencing Stephen Mitchell as a critical influence:

  "If you are explaining all of human psychology, it's probably a metatheory."
  (John Totten, 03:11)

3. Origins and Evolution of the "Relational" School

• The Founding Group:
  Bass recounts meetings with foundational figures like Steve Mitchell, Phil Brumberg, Manny Ghent, Lou Aaron, Adrian Harris, Jessica Benjamin, and others. These small group discussions catalyzed the growth of International Association for Relational Psychoanalysis and Psychotherapy (IARPP) and the Stephen Mitchell Center. (07:56)

• Clinical Focus over Theoretical Purity:

  "My interest has been in the kind of clinical sphere and in teaching clinical relational theory... less as a kind of developer of theory."
  (Tony Bass, 09:59)

4. Personal and Professional Journey

• Shifting from Family Systems to Psychoanalysis:
  Bass describes a nonlinear route marked by early therapy experiences of both Jungian and Freudian orientations, training in child psychology, and impactful work in behavioral and strategic therapy, before ultimately gravitating to relational psychoanalysis.
  (11:07–12:49)

• Therapist as Both Patient and Clinician:
  The mutuality in therapy is driven both by professional and personal histories. Bass reflects on how his identity as patient shaped his clinical sensibilities, favoring openness and reciprocal engagement over classical neutrality.

  "Therapy situations that were more open and mutual and reciprocal were more helpful."
  (Tony Bass, 13:06)

5. The Intimate Edge & Shared Subjectivity

• Darlene Ehrenberg's "Intimate Edge":
  Bass discusses the delicate balance of vulnerability, self-disclosure, and recognition required from both therapist and patient for therapy to feel "cutting edge."
  (16:44)

• Transcending External Differences:
  Through powerful vignettes, Bass and Totten reflect on how therapists and patients can connect across differences such as age, race, and background, and the tension between "sameness" and "otherness":

  "The truly human dimension... transcends many of these externalized categories."
  (Tony Bass, 17:59)

  Notable Story (18:55):
  Bass recounts a black woman patient who preferred a white therapist because, paradoxically, "at least with you, I know you won't understand me," avoiding presumed understanding and "confusion of tongues."

6. Clinical Mutuality & Countertransference

• Unconscious Collaboration:
  Bass draws on Ferenzi and Searles to discuss how unconscious processes are inherently reciprocal—patients often unconsciously "treat" therapists, just as therapists seek to "treat" patients.

  "Often... psychotic symptoms are efforts to heal the parents disturbance."
  (Tony Bass, 22:42)

• The Enrichment of Owning One's Subjectivity:

  "I never felt prone to that kind of self-consciousness. I felt like, this is really interesting to me..."
  (Tony Bass, 29:35)

7. The Jazz of Therapy

• Improv and Split Attention:
  Bass and Totten liken the clinical process to jazz improvisation—responsive, attuned, and unique to each "instrument" (therapist):

  "Our work as very much as a kind of improvisational jazz."
  (Tony Bass, 34:22)
  "Both art forms really require being able to listen to the other as well as yourself at the same time—a split attention."
  (John Totten, 34:43)

  Bass explains his workshop method: Participants "jam" by role-playing as therapist with a presented clinical dilemma, demonstrating the individuality of each therapist's style.
  (36:00)

8. Mutuality, Sameness, and Otherness—The Big Theoretical Questions

• On 'Big R' Relationalism and Its Limits:
  Bass discusses the initial dream of an integrated, unified Relational Psychoanalysis (the "big R") and the ultimate reality of a diverse, pluralistic field.

  "The business that I had hoped would be... more completed was probably a kind of non-democratic impulse..."
  (Tony Bass, 50:18)

• The Self as Discontinuous, Expansive:
  Referencing Stephen Mitchell:

  "Selves are what people do and experience over time rather than something that exists someplace..."
  (John Totten / Mason Neely, 44:13–45:17)

  Contemporary Tensions:
  The episode highlights ongoing debates—whether the therapeutic relationship can truly transcend power differences and whether transcending "otherness" is possible or even desirable.

  "Otherness, in this way of thinking, might be redefined not as what is truly alien to the self, but as what has been...disallowed in the self. Jung called these disclaimed features of the self the shadow."
  (John Totten, 53:58)

9. The Relational Analyst as Both Therapist and Patient

• On Case Writing & Self-Disclosure:
  Bass notes the long tradition—and evolving acceptability—of analysts writing about themselves through disguised clinical cases.
  (71:36–73:36)

  "If you want to be the patient and disguise it as your patient, that could be a way of further exploring the phenomenon..."
  (Tony Bass, 73:29)

• Finding the Patient Within the Therapist:
  To be effective, the analyst must "find the patient inside myself," accessing their own hidden, shame-ridden, or dissociated parts to understand and connect with the patient.

  "As I can know you, I can know me. When my patient is not me... I had to gain access to difficult or disclaimed parts of myself to reach the patient in her or his own...states."
  (John Totten, quoting Bass, 65:55)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "I always worked that way...in a kind of personal, mutually engaged relationship with my patients."
  (Tony Bass, 13:06)

• "If we are shaped in the cauldron of society, if the self is boundaryless and expansive...then there is something I can know about you by looking inside myself..."
  (John Totten, 63:56)

• Music, Improvisation, and Therapy Parallel:

  "Even if we share a theory, your patients are having a different experience than mine...because we're collaborating in a different set. We're all playing a different instrument."
  (Tony Bass, 35:00)

• Case Example Illustrating Mutual Unconscious Dynamics:

  "Sometimes my questions are answered in my heart. I can tell if the answer is correct. In a dream, are all the characters really you?"
  (Narrator, 00:37)

Important Timestamps

• 00:00–02:10: Opening reflections on discovery and the unseen in therapy; poetic narration and metaphor.
• 07:56: The founding of the "Relational" school; focus on clinical over metapsychological interest.
• 13:06: Bass on mutual engagement; personal and therapist identities.
• 17:59–19:34: Story of patient and therapist crossing racial difference in therapy.
• 22:42: Use of Searles’ concept—patients unconsciously "treating" their therapists.
• 29:35: Responding to perceptions of self-disclosure as "brave" in clinical writing.
• 34:22–36:47: Music, jazz, improvisation as metaphors for clinical work.
• 53:58: Mitchell on "otherness" and "sameness"—opposites as complements.
• 65:55: The importance of the therapist finding the patient in themselves.
• 73:52–74:38: The "practice" and "orientation" of mutuality as the heart of the work.

Episode Tone and Style

The conversation is reflective, exploratory, and intimate, mirroring the clinical posture Bass and Totten advocate for in therapy: direct, open, improvisational, and mutually engaged. Rather than didactic or strictly academic, the episode balances serious theoretical discussion with warmth, humor, and personal storytelling.

Key Takeaways

• Therapy is an improvisational, mutual process—both patient and analyst are changed, and deep work requires acknowledging what each brings unconsciously to the room.
• Relational psychoanalysis is pluralistic and unfinished, resisting singular definitions in favor of diverse, context-specific approaches.
• Transcending differences (race, age, background) is complex but possible; recognizing both sameness and otherness is vital.
• Self-knowledge in the clinician is not separate from clinical efficacy—finding the patient in oneself, and vice versa, is at the heart of effective therapeutic engagement.
• Influence does not always look explicit—what is metabolized subjectively often becomes unique and unrecognizable in its new form.

In Summary:
This episode offers a profound look at relational psychoanalysis—historically, theoretically, clinically, and personally—through the life and work of Tony Bass. It serves as a testament to the ever-evolving, deeply personal, and improvisational nature of psychotherapy, urging therapists (and listeners) to stay curious, mutual, and self-reflective in their engagements with others.