Podcast Summary:

Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society
Episode: How Has Porn Changed Through History?
Host: Dr. Kate Lister
Guest: Prof. Kathleen Lubey (St. John’s University)
Date: December 23, 2025

Brief Overview

This episode, hosted by sex historian Dr. Kate Lister, dives into the historical evolution of pornography—exploring its definitions, societal impact, and its frequent role as protest and cultural commentary. Joined by 18th-century literature specialist Prof. Kathleen Lubey, the discussion ranges from the origins of written porn in the 1700s to the complexities of gender representation and feminist debates both past and present. The episode challenges simplistic views of porn, showing it as a nuanced, multifaceted genre deeply intertwined with broader social and political histories.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Defining Pornography

• Porn as More Than Arousal:
  • The mainstream definition views porn solely as material intended to arouse and facilitate masturbation (08:13), but Lubey contests:

    “Pornography takes for granted that there’s a meaning in sex, that people want to have sex of some kind or want to watch it or think about it…my whole book is inspired by this notion that, like, that might be true, but that’s utterly incomplete.” (08:54)

  • Dr. Lister quips, “I need to be here for the moral, social messages that are coming through.” (10:06)

2. Historical Contexts and Print Culture

• Rise in the 18th Century:
  • Lubey focuses on the 1740s, when print became cheaper—allowing for a boom in literary pornography like John Cleland’s Fanny Hill (10:40).
  • Porn started reaching broader audiences, being shared and sometimes read aloud in groups, e.g., the Beggars Benison Society (13:41).
  • Manuscripts were often euphemistically titled and sometimes physically compiled in collectors’ anthologies (14:43).

3. Loss, Censorship, and Gaps in the Archive

• Destruction of Materials:
  • Massive amounts of pornography have been lost, sometimes purposely destroyed by institutions like the British Library, often eradicating women’s and queer history from the record (15:42).
  • Lister laments, “It’s just gutting, isn’t it?...every sex historian carries this within them.” (16:28)

4. Queer Histories and Gender Fluidity in Early Porn

• More Queer Porn Than Straight:
  • Lubey reveals that much early porn contains homoerotic or queer elements, as in 19th-century works where protagonists’ gender and anatomy fluidly shift (18:46):

    “...two narrators...we’d now call them trans women or at the very least, non-binary...”

  • The blending of medical and pornographic discourse created spaces for non-normative gender and sexuality to be depicted, if often violently (19:33).

5. Public Intimacy—Then vs Now

• Public Sex and Privacy:
  • Sex was much less private historically; public and communal living meant exposure was common (31:55).
  • Lister points out, “We can’t comprehend because we’re so used to having our own space…You would have seen people having sex. You’d have seen people nude in ways that would have quite appalled us today.” (32:21–32:42).
  • Pornography mirrored this openness in its explicitness and setting.

6. Porn as Social Protest and Counter-Narrative

• 18th-Century Boldness:
  • Porn was not always hidden: “Writers really thought that talking about a boy who rollicks around…is not that unlike Robinson Crusoe…” (24:57).
  • Pornography served as a platform for women’s voices and a challenge to norms, addressing consent and bodily autonomy more directly than much moral fiction (27:15).

7. Evolving Portrayals of Consent and Misogyny

• Shifts Over Time:
  • 18th-century porn tended to be more experimental, sometimes allowing women’s resistance to be articulated. The 19th-century works often depicted women’s initial resistance as a prelude to subsequent desire, reflecting growing misogyny (29:09).

8. Trans and Non-Binary Readings of Pornography

• Trans Potential of Porn:
  • Lubey’s provocative claim: “All porn can be viewed as being transgender,”

    “...you're going to see genitals detached from the people that have them...[This] shift in perspective…sets them sort of into play with one another.” (34:03–35:38)

  • This “detachability” destabilizes binary readings and allows for more creative gender interpretations, especially in 18th-century narrative porn.

9. Contemporary Data and Consumption Habits

• Modern Data:
  • Annual Pornhub datasets reveal surprising trends—e.g., high popularity of trans porn despite societal transphobia, and insight into cultural differences in consumption (06:47–07:07).
• Technology and Porn:
  • Lister notes, “Anytime a new type of technology is invented...porn is always at the forefront.” (03:07)

10. Feminism & Debates Within the Genre

• Polarization:
  • The genre forces simplistic binaries—pro-sex vs. anti-porn—which both guests argue is reductive (42:07).

    “If you are saying one thing that is true of all pornography, you have to be wrong, because pornography is as diverse as any other genre…” – Lubey (44:57)

  • Feminist perspectives must reckon both with empowerment and the reality of exploitation; honoring sex worker agency while remaining vigilant about abuse (44:25).
• Pay for Your Porn:
  • “Pay for your porn. #payforyourpornography” – Lubey (44:25)

11. Research Adventures and Sources

• Accessing Historical Porn:
  • Lubey conducted much research at the British Library, specifically in their “Private Case” collection, but also found evidence of unrecognized porn in general circulation (38:44).
  • A pivotal research breakthrough came from finding a 1968 pulp reprint of an 18th-century novel, showing the genre’s long afterlife (40:07–40:31).

12. Memorable, Quirky Details

• Corks as Erotic Motif:
  • In 18th-century erotic art, corks symbolized both fashion (used to shape women's skirts) and sexual innuendo due to their role as “stoppers”—leading to surreal, playful images (45:31–47:22).
  • “Women wore them under their trusses…and they were used to plug up bottles. So some artists had fun with those two things.” – Lubey (46:25)

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “Pornography takes for granted that there’s a meaning in sex, that people want to have sex of some kind or want to watch it or think about it…my whole book is inspired by this notion that, like, that might be true, but that’s utterly incomplete.”
  — Lubey (08:54)

• “If you are saying one thing that is true of all pornography, you have to be wrong, because pornography is as diverse as any other genre, if not more so.”
  — Lubey (44:57)

• “All porn can be viewed as being transgender.”
  — Lubey (33:41); explanation follows (34:03–35:38)

• “Writers really thought that talking about a boy who rollicks around the Yorkshire countryside and has sex with whoever he encounters is not that unlike Robinson Crusoe…”
  — Lubey (24:57)

• “You would have seen people having sex. You’d have seen people nude in ways that would have quite appalled us today. We’d just be like, oh my God, why are you fucking someone right next to me? I’m right here. But that would have been pretty par for the course, wouldn't it?”
  — Lister (32:21–32:42)

• “If you look at the porn, it’s full of people enjoying sex and enjoying pleasure.…it puts pain to the idea that they weren’t enjoying sex or that people feared it.”
  — Lister (29:09)

• “Pay for your porn. #payforyourpornography.”
  — Lubey (44:25)

Notable Moments & Segment Guide

| Timestamp | Segment | |:-------------:|:------------------------------------------------:| | 04:06 | Lubey joins; intro to her book & defining porn | | 10:40 | British porn’s rise; cultural specificity | | 13:41 | Book clubs and group reading; distribution | | 15:16–17:29 | Loss in the archives; destruction of queer/women’s history | | 18:44 | Queer, fluid gender and sexuality in early porn | | 24:01 | Porn as protest; social commentary in early works| | 27:07–30:53 | Portrayals of consent and misogyny over time | | 31:55–33:31 | Public sex, privacy, and social context | | 33:41–36:09 | Trans readings: “all porn can be viewed as transgender” | | 38:44 | Researching historical porn; archives uncovered | | 42:07–44:57 | Feminist debates; complexities of feminist views on porn | | 45:02–47:22 | The cork motif in 18th-century erotic art | | 47:35 | Where to find Lubey and her work |

Tone & Takeaway

True to Betwixt the Sheets’ irreverent-yet-scholarly tone, Lister and Lubey balance sexual candor, wit, and warm encouragement for deeper, more critical thinking. They break the taboo around discussing pornography seriously, inviting listeners to question lazy narratives, embrace historical messiness, and appreciate both the joy and trauma found in the archives of sex.

For those who haven’t listened:
This episode explodes the myth that porn is a contemporary, shallow concern, revealing its deep roots as literature, cultural protest, and complex social mirror. Expect plenty of laughs (and a surprising number of 18th-century corks), all anchored in sharp, rigorous historical analysis.