← Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society
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Hi, I'm your host, Kate Lister. If you would like Betwixt the Sheets ad free and get early access, sign up to History Hit with a History Hit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of original documentaries with top history presenters and enjoy a new release every single week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe.
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Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough.
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And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are gonna come out of your head.
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Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes wherever you get your podcast.
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Hello my lovely betwixters, it's me, Kate Lister. You are listening to Betwixt the Sheets and I have to tell you, this is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way, covering a range of subjects. And you spend adult too. And I know I mess around with the fair dues warning quite a lot, but I do have to give you quite a serious heads up about today's episode. We are talking about brothels within concentration camps in Nazi Germany. So there is no way that this subject is going to be anything but a ton stuff. Listen. We are going to be covering themes of rape, violence, genocide, sexual abuse, holocaust and for many reasons you just might not want to listen today. In which case this is your chance to get out now and we'll catch you later for a different episode. For today's episode we are journeying to one of the darkest points of our shared history, the Holocaust in Nazi Germany. I in particular, we will be looking at the concentration camp system and one of the littlest known parts of that history, the fact that there was a system of forced prostitution and brothels within the concentration camps. Even within the horrors of the Holocaust, this particular history has remained taboo for a very, very long time. It can complicate our understanding of the atrocities committed there. Misplaced notions of shame haunted survivors. It complicates our understanding of power relations within the camp system. But it is still an essential history and the story needs to be told. In Auschwitz 1, the brothel was in block number 24. Outside it looks just like a barrack and inside it had lino flooring, cream walls and white painted wooden doors. They use this building today as part of the museum. In the doors though, there's a clue for what this particular building was originally used for from 1943 until the end of the war. There are peepholes. These would have been used by concentration camp guards to supervise the prisoners in each room. Usually two prisoners. But what do we know about the prisoners who worked there? What do we know about the prisoners who visited there? Well, today we're going to talk to a historian who has spent much of his career recovering that past.
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What are you, a corny man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you.
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I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing a button. Now, number one era. Let's reward now.
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Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.
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Goodness, my beautiful diamond. Goodness had nothing to do with it, dearie. Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. Today I'm joined by Dr. Robert Sommer, author of the Concentration Camp Forced Sexual Labor Under Nazi Rule. Robert originally published this work some years ago, but it was in German and it has now been released in English. And he's here today to tell us all about it. Hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Robert Sommer. How are you doing?
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C
Pretty good these days? Yeah, pretty good. It's fall, but, you know, things are slowing down.
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Things are slowing down. I'm so, so pleased that we've managed to get you on this podcast because your research is so important and it's gonna be a tough episode as anything dealing with the Nazis in concentration camp and forced sexual lab. But you are the author of. I'll give it its full title, the Concentration Camp Brothel, Forced Sexual Labor Under Nazi Rule. This is a translation of your work which came out in German in 2009. I am so glad that you have published this and done this research because I became aware that there were brothels within Nazi concentration camps back in, I think it was 2005 when I read Lawrence Reese's work. But there was no information about them. There was very little. And I've been desperate to know more. And here you are and thank God. But can I ask you, what brought you to this research? What made you do this research?
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C
Well, thanks, Kate, for having the opportunity to talk here about my book and my research. It's interesting that you came up with Lawrence Rees because I was actually working on the same project on the Auschwitz documentary. Yes, I was just in the beginning of my research, and so he kind of decided some of my work and I was working together with the BBC, but I was just right at the beginning of, you know, what I was doing. It's interesting how things connect. These things connect. You know, it's a long story. Years ago, many years ago, in 2000, I think it was also around the year 2000, I was in Auschwitz. I was still at the university, I was doing my major and I had a seminar, a course on violence. So it was a very philosophical course. It was a lot about like German and violence in society, whatever. And of course it's like the elephant in the room, you know, you can't talk about violence in Germany if you don't talk about the Holocaust. So we connected with an NGO which actually supported Polish survivors from Auschwitz. And so we did a field trip. And during this field trip, which actually was an entire seven days trip to Auschwitz, which was very, very intense and changed my life, I have to say that this field trip actually we were talking with lots of survivors. I mean there's all these survivors around us, like probably 10 of them. And at one point we walked through the main gate of Auschwitz, you know, with the famous saying Abed Macht Frei. And we walk right there and it's, you know, right, the first block, the first building at the left hand side. And one of the survivors, Stanis Vauhans, he says, oh, this is where the brothel used to be. And I, you know, of course I heard about it, I heard it like brothels, you know, it's kind of brothels where Jewish women were forced to do prostitution for the guards. But then Stanislaw says, oh no, no, no, it was actually for the prisoners. And I said what? And I couldn't believe it. And I was shocked. They couldn't believe it. And it's interesting, this same reaction many people get still today when I talk about my research, it's like, you know, I had the same shock. And so it was the beginning of a lot of research. I went to 70 archives, I interviewed 30 survivors of the concentration camps. That was really a 10 years research. And I was able to kind of close this gap. And I was actually able to document most of the women, more than 85% of women by name who were brothels. And I was able to talk to men also who admitted having been to the brothel in the camps and talked about it. So it all came out in the book and it was 10 years of research, a long time. But I'm happy that I could contribute to the history and to the research on the Holocaust, to that and kind of also give the women a voice who never been Heard before.
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A
It's such a strange thing to say when you look at the scope of what was happening in the Holocaust and the cruelty being meted out. But the fact that there were brothels there seems so shocking. And I'm not sure why it seems so shocking because they were doing horrendous things. Why would another horrendous thing be so shocking? But there's something about that juxtaposition of brothel and concentration camp that just blows people's minds when they learn that fact. Right.
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C
I think it's incomprehensible. It's something which kind of goes beyond our imagination because we imagine the concentration camps as, you know, these piles of dead bodies in Belgian bells and the gas chambers of Auschwitz. And we learn all about this and we hear the stories of the selections and see pictures of it. But to imagine that the SS built actually brothels in concentration camps, and especially in Auschwitz for prisoners, it's something which is really hard to understand. And I think this is for also one of the main reasons. There are other reasons, but this is one of the main reasons why people didn't really talk about it. They didn't understand it. And when people talked about the concentration camps in the very beginning, in the 70s and in the 50s already, people wanted to give the shocking parts of it and make the people understand. This happened because people didn't believe it had happened. And then all of a sudden there were brothels for prisoners. How does that work? So I gu. This whole thing, this whole strangeness about the subject is something that contributed to, like the big silence about it for many years.
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A
The other thing that when you get to grips with the fact that there were these brothels, it seems very counterintuitive if there is any logic to this, because the Nazis persecuted women who were selling sex. They took prostitutes and sent them to Ravensbruck labor camp, concentration camp. They seemed to be very opposed to this. And they promoted family values and, you know, the nuclear family. And then all of a sudden they've got a system of forced sexual labor. What on earth were they doing with this? Why was it even there?
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C
It's like a general perception that, you know, the Nazis were against prostitution. But the Nazis, what they actually did instead, they kind of made. Took control over the entire prostitution system of Germany and the occupied countries. So not only did the Nazis kind of imprison women for being prostitutes, but what they would actually do is they would register them, made them go to take STD tests at the health departments twice a week. And they totally had a List of all the prostitutes in all entire Germany. And instead of like killing the system, they boosted, boosted that system. That's one side. Women who were not wanting to be integrated in that system, who didn't want to be registered, who didn't want to be under the control of the Nazis in special houses and whatever. And those were the women actually the Nazis would persecuted. And those women actually ended up in prison. So, right. It's kind of. It's more taking over, control over entire sexuality. So on one side, you have the value of the family. You know, women have the, you know, the duty to produce children for the Reich. And on the other side, they also have the duty to satisfy men's sexuality. And this doesn't go very often together, as we know. So they kind of to control the entire sexuality of human beings, of men actually in the country by just, you know, having women provided. Provided in parentheses. And brothels for men. So that's kind of the general situation when it comes to the concentration camps. This is another thing which we very often forget. The concentration camps were just not only places where people were tortured and killed, but also a major place for slave labor. And the slave labor. So the SS was running the camp system. The ss. And Heinrich Himmler was on top. Heinrich Himmler was the leader of the ss, the Reichfuhrer of the ss. And Heinrich Himmler, he kind of had an idea of getting independent from the Nazi state. He wanted to be financially independent with his projects in mind. He wanted to resettle the East. He wanted to change the entire population. And these projects were super expensive. So he thought, why don't I find a way to make money myself? And what he does is actually. So he uses the concentration camp prisoners, he exploits them and thinks, okay, I just take their. I mean, they're prisoners of the state of Germany, but I don't care because I make them work in my factories and then the money I take put into my pocket. So it's kind of a massive money laundry system. And in that system, you have to understand there was a major contradiction because on one hand side, people were tortured and killed and the living condition was so horrible, as you know. Right. And on the other side, these people had to work efficiently and make money, generate money for the ss. And that was the problem. So Heinrich Himmler thought, let's find a system. Let's find a way to make them work harder. And what he actually did is he looked around, he looked in other countries where they had slave labor also. And the Soviet Union was the best example for that and they had the Gulags already from the 1920s on, and they were very open about it. So they wrote books about it and they wrote newspapers about it. And they had also the problem of efficiency, because they had the same problem. People were just starving to death. And the Soviets thought, okay, well, why don't we just connect the ration, the food ration to the work a quarter. So if you work 100% of the quarter, you get 100% of your food. And Himmler thought, hmm, this is force stronger than hunger. And he thought, that's male sexuality, right? And he thought, if we give men the incentives to go to a brothel, they will work harder. And that was the idea behind it. He started in Mauthausen and Gusen, the first camps, and then extended it to entire camp system. So in the end, we have, like 10 brothels built until 1945 where women were enslaved to, like, boost the productivity of male slave labor in the camp.
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A
And he didn't incentivize people with food or with better living conditions or none of that. It was just with sexual availability.
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C
You know what, there were some other incentives, right? People could wear a haircut instead of having a hair shaved, or could receive more letters and could get cigarettes, which actually was very valuable for prisoners because cigarettes was the unofficial currency in the camp. So it meant you actually got something in return which you could use. They could also buy more food in a canteen little store in camps where you could buy something like cabbage salad, which was so sour your stomach wouldn't hold, or you could buy toilet paper. So really useless. That was absolutely use for the prisoners, the highest incentives. He said, you know, for the. Really, the best working prisoners are going to give them the right to go to the brothel once a week.
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A
And when you say they, who is they? They prisoners. Is that Jewish people?
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C
That's another thing we have to understand about the concentration camp system. The Jewish prisoners were only a minority in the entire system. Everybody thinks the camps were just made for Jews. No, there are some camps, like slave labor camps, like Motovi, where 95% or 80% of the population used to be Jewish. But in most of the labor camps, Jews were just a minority. In Sachsenhausen, for instance, near Berlin, there were never more than 10% Dachau the same. And the reason is because the Nazis wanted to get the Jews, first of all, kill them, right? So many of them had already been killed in mass shootings, had killed in extermination camps. When the Nazi system, when the concentration camp system expanded, most of the prisoners were not Jewish. So we had a lot of Poles in there, a lot of German prisoners, political prisoners, criminal prisoners, antisocials, the so called Jehovah's Witnesses, we had the homosexuals, we had prisoners from all over the world. We had English prisoners, we had prisoners from Sweden, from Soviet Union even. So a lot of the Germans were the minority. But the major part of the camp prisoners were actually Polish prisoners. And that's most of the camps. Jewish prisoners were always a small part. And also they means men who were not Jewish. So Jews were at any time excluded from the privilege to go to the brothel. I mean, they were there to die. I mean, there was just no way the Nazis would ever give them any incentives. They die. That's a given, right? That's what the Nazis want. So men who actually went to the brothels were mostly prisoners. And in a hierarchy of the camp, you know, you had a hierarchy, people were working in a quarry with life expectancy of a few weeks only, you know, carrying heavy granite blocks and just like falling down and dying of exhaustion of hunger after a very few weeks only. And then you have prisoners who were in the middle stratum on the upper stratum of this camp society. The SS chose them to do like, work in offices, like writing works, conduct prisoners from one camp to the other, organize food distribution or like people who were in the kitchen commander, like in the kitchen squad, like distributing food, cooking food, or people who were in a medical department. So those were the prisoners who were of higher value for the ss. Those were the ones who were kind of the experts inside of the camps. The SS needed them and the system was more or less wasn't originally designed for them. But those were the primary group of people who actually went to see the women in the camp later on. We have to say this is only a very small group and the total number, and I can say this pretty clearly because I did a lot of calculations on that in a camp of like 30,000 people, Buchenwald probably like maybe less than a thousand people would go to the camp. Maybe 100 only. So you always had a population which was less than 1%. Some even 0.1% of the camp population were actually going to the camp brothels. So that's why it's another reason why nobody talked about it, because so many prisoners did not care about it. They didn't know about it. They never got in contact with these brothels. So because that was in another world, that was for prisoners, prisoners who were fed well, I mean, prisoners Would sometimes really were heavy, like, you know, had a big belly because they had access to food. While thousands of them died every day. They, you know, they managed to like to be in a position where they could, you know, actually survive. And they also showed their power through going to the brothel. They showed it openly. They showed, you know, hey, I'm a man. I'm, you know, I'm physically and sexually still a man. Which was not the case for most of the prisoners in the camps.
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A
So this was something that. I don't know if this is even the right word. Elite prisoners. I'll just use that. I know that that's very complex. But these are the prisoners who had. They're still prisoners, but they have the most privileges from the Nazis.
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C
Yeah, elite is actually the right word. I mean, they use the word elite sometimes. Among historians, we call them the prisoner functionaries. Those who had special functions at the camps. That's kind of the term we officially use. They were definitely the ones who were visiting the most. There's actually a list from the camp of Mauthausen where the SS put a list of every prisoner who went to the brothel. They had to register for that. The name was. And actually all on the list. And the SS put a little cross for any time they went to the brothel. And there's some prisoners who went there twice a week frequently. But I mean, this is like we're talking about probably the camp of Mauthausen was like 30, 40,000 people. Five people. It's a very, very small number. Right. But those were the people, you know, that sometimes they had the camp elder who was the highest prisoner in camp hierarchy. The SS would never stand in front of the camp at the roll call and say, I hear where I give you this order. They would give pass the order to the highest prisoner. And he would pass it down, top it down. So basically that was the camp elder who was the equivalent to the pamp leader on the SS side. And the camp elder, he was dressed well. I mean, we still had stripes and striped pajama, but clean. He was able to take showers. He slept in separate beds, not in a bunk, but in a bed and so on. So there's definitely a hierarchy inside of the camp. And there's as one at that. They wanted that because they never really wanted to get their hands dirty. Now it's like kind of, you know, let somebody else do the dirty work. Right? Let them decide who's going to get the food. No, not we. We just give you, like, so much food and then you have to decide who's going to get it. That's the way the camp interior was designed by the ss.
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A
How does it work then, that this was set up to incentivize prisoners? If such a small percentage of prisoners were actually using the service, was it like dangling it like it's a reward?
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C
You know what I think? I think the way it was designed, Himmler kind of had the idea, you know, let him see women and let him have women and they're going to work harder. He thought it was kind of a great incentive. Himmler himself, he was kind of a strange character. He's kind of an organic. He started as an organic farmer and had really weird ideas. I mean, he wanted to reduce the number of radio people in the army and, like, replace them with, like, pigeons, you know, message pigeons or whatever. So it's kind of very strange stuff. He also wanted to have a special diet for prisoners so they work harder, so they wouldn't extra herbs like in their food, which is ridiculous. But anyway, so. So bizarre. Absolutely. But what actually happened in the end is it was kind of designed for the majority of the prisoners, but in the end, it was kind of an elite which only was able to go to the brothels. I mean, there was also other people. Like, for instance, like, I talked to people who were like 18 years old in a camp, you know, in 1940 to 18 years old, and they were kind of got into a camp and the situation worse and worse. And then I thought, you know what? I'm not going to survive this. I will not survive this. And I will at least have one chance in my lifetime to have sex with a woman one time. Because, you know, otherwise I'm gonna die without it. And it's kind of. So they would go to the brothel, too. I mean, there were different kind of motivations, but those people only went once or maybe twice. But also, there were people who actually fell in love with women. I mean, you imagine, you know, this whole world of horror, terror, and torture. I mean, there's nothing nice about it. It's every day. It's survival, every second of it, right? And then all of a sudden, you see a woman who smells good, has long hair, and it's just like her presence. You don't even necessarily have to have sex. And not everybody had sex with women, of course. I mean, not everybody was able to have sex even. I mean, it's like, you know, as we call it, like erectile dysfunction. You know, obviously men were. Whereas for so long in camps, they didn't even. There was just no way. But also the situation or the way the camp brothel worked. I mean, I will tell about this in a moment. Even that is kind of very, very unerotic and unsexy. There were different kind of motives of people. And also that's kind of surprising, but we even have people who married each other after the liberation. She was a prostitute for sex laborer in a camp, and he was one of her clients. And he kind of blackmailed other people or like bribed other people and told him not to have sex with her. And they agreed and gave him extra pieces of bread. So they kind of became friends, even lovers. And then in the end, they married each other. I mean, this even existed. And I even talked to a prisoner who actually, after the war, he still went to visit her. And he was in love with her. He said he was truly in love with her. And I totally see that because in a camp in those days where you could die every second, obviously emotions, love is something which is so valuable to you. But also the few women who talk about it who were sex force workers, they also say some men came to them and they were their friends. They call them friends even. So.
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A
I'll be back with Robert after this short break.
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Ever wondered what it feels like to be a gladiator facing a roaring crowd and potential death in the Colosseum? Find out on the Ancients podcast from History Hit twice a week. Join me, Tristan Hughes, as I hear exciting new research about people living thousands of years ago, from the Babylonians to the Celts to the Romans, and visit the ancient sites which reveal who and just how amazing our distant ancestors were. That's the Ancients from History Hit.
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A
Can we talk about the women? Because the whole book and all of your research is incredible, but the fact that you've managed to get some of their voices and hear some of their stories and give names back to them is just unbelievable. So who were the women who were working in these brothels?
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C
So these women are mostly from Ravensbruck. Ravensburg was the main place where the SS selected women for the brothels. In the very beginning, they tried to find women or would do it on a voluntary basis. So they kind of. They would ask, you know, you can sign up for this work squad. And of course, there was nothing voluntary about it because the SS also gave them the false promise that they would be released after half a year in the brothel. And if you talk to any prisoner in there, I mean. I mean, people would do anything for just being released from the camps. I mean, that was the worst thing on earth. So if you manage to get out of there, we would do anything. My good friend Stanislav Hans, the one I've also talked about, the brothels, he said if anybody gave you a knife and said, cut your hand off and you get released tonight, you would not hesitate a second to do this. And this kind of shows you the situation, like the circumstances created for women being so desperate for volunteer for this, I wouldn't even use a volunteer. But to sign up for that, the SS would use mostly German women because also most of the clients were actually German. The SS also tried to find not Jewish women then. No, and that's another thing. But another big group of women were actually Polish women. There were some Eastern European women, like Soviet woman, and there was one Dutch woman. But there's actually no Jewish woman. Actually none of them. I'm not 100% sure, but I'm 99.9% sure. Because the SS raised the violence was a problem for themselves. So they couldn't have like a Jewish prisoner having sex with a non Jewish prisoner. It was illegal. They created the laws. And even the camps, Even the camps. I mean, if the SS men shot women in the fields of like in Ukraine or in a theater of war in somewhere in Eastern Europe and raped them before them shot them, that's a different story. But in the camps it was kind of more organized. So the SS didn't let Jewish prisoners have sex with non Jewish prisoners. And so I told you that I have about 85% of the women's names. And in some camps I have like 100% of the women's names. And none of them is Jewish. None of them. So they're mostly German antisocial prisoners or Polish political prisoners or Polish antisocial prisoners as well. And these were the majority of women. The total number, I estimate about 214 women is the number who actually selected for the brothels. The SS also selected women in Auschwitz. So Auschwitz had a women's camp as well. And Auschwitz had two brothels, one in the main camp and one in Monowitz.
- [24:22]
A
Two brothels?
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C
Yeah, I mean, there were three camps and Motowitz was one of the IG Farben. And then the other one was the main one was Stamlager, the first camp, Auschwitz one. And the SS would select women in the women's camp in Birkenau, which is Auschwitz ii. And the Auschwitz brothels were the biggest ones. So the brothel, the main camp brothel, was the biggest one in the entire camp system. More than 60 women were in There, even there, I have their names, most of them, because the SS would test women for sexual transmitted diseases, STDs regularly. And these test tubes had little kind of accompanying sheets with that. And somewhere in the laboratory, this massive amount of these little sheets were found. And among them were also the, you know, the women actually were tested for STDs for the bra of the brothel of Auschwitz. So we can know for sure. The majority of them were kind of half German, half Polish. But again, there's no Jewish women in there. You know, it wouldn't make sense because, I mean, the prisoners, the Jews were not allowed to go to the brothels anyways. So the whole story of brothel is built for guards and filled with Jewish women is actually a myth.
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A
That's not true. And is it true that they were known as the Joy Division? I've heard that.
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C
Yeah, I know. I mean, that's what Cati came up with this word like cassette in the House of Dolls and, you know, Joy Division, the band took the name from that. And it's, you know, it's a fictionist. It's, you know, everybody thinks it's true, but it's not. And he says, he claims that his sister, she was in the brothel of Auschwitz and she gives her a name. And I have the names of the women in Auschwitz and she was certainly not there. And I know for sure also talking to men who were visitors of the brothels in Auschwitz and said there was no Jewish women in a camp brothel. So I guess it just kind of became a myth because, you know, Jewish women who were victims of the Nazis, they were raped, they were shot, they were killed, and all these families were destroyed. And so kind of it makes sense that, you know, the Nazis would also forcible prostitution. Maybe they did do this outside of the camps. Maybe they did do this in occupied areas. You know, horrible conditions there, but not inside of the concentration camp system.
- [26:11]
A
What would the conditions be like inside the brothels? Because you said there that they would try and get women to enlist for this on the idea that they'd be released earlier. But were there other incentives? Was there more food? Was there? I guess it's some protection. Even being indoors is better than being outdoors in forced labor.
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C
Women very soon understood that, but not all of them. Some kind of tried to get out of it as soon as they could. They could not handle it. Most of the women I actually found by name, they did not try to get out of it because the conditions were much better than in other camp sites, on other work squads. So for instance, in Auschwitz, women were working in particular in the fields, doing heavy work, like hard labor, physical labor, like, you know, digging trenches, cleaning ponds. And when you do this in fall, I mean, the water, when the water gets pretty cold, you know exactly that you're not going to survive. The this is going to be your last winter. And so the conditions inside of the camp rather on the other hand side were very different. You had women who had a shower, real showers. They had their own bed, they had civilian clothing, they had warm rooms, they could have their hair grow long. Also they get food from the SS kitchen. So that was definitely much, much better conditions than other ones. Problem is you had to accept that you were a sexual slave. Right. And not everybody can do this, but you know, some people, they do everything for survival. And I totally think it's a way of survival and we should acknowledge that. And you know, it's their way to survive. And so, you know, some people criticize that and I don't, I just, I think it's wrong because they found a way to survive. And everybody who survives the camp is a resistance fighter because surviving the camp is resistant to the Nazis.
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A
And did they all survive, all the names that you found?
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C
I can definitely say that there's no women who died inside of the camp broth of any of these 10. No one never ever died.
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A
Wow.
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C
Some women died like maybe two or three after they got out of the camp brothel and they were transported to another camp and then they were killed there. And some, you know, because the Camp Brussels didn't last until the very last day of the war because often the SS would evacuate camps and then would transfer that prisoners to some other place. So they mostly survived that because the conditions were much better. Also you have to think men, if some men who like actually fell in love with some of these women, they would do anything to make them feel better. So they would give them extra food and they organized protection for them. And you know, it's. Conditions were actually much better. It's kind of hard to say that because it's like you have to, you have to go back into the camp and see, you know, when you say better, I mean, what is better? Being a sex slave, Is that better than, you know. But it's, it's a way to survive. And the logic of a camp prisoner was comparatively better. Comparatively. Right.
- [28:36]
A
I guess.
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C
Right. And the logic is like, you do anything for survival. Some women couldn't do it. Some of them could not. I mean, they're, you know, Catholic, Polish women that Would say, you know, I'd rather die than this, and say, so they're, you know, refused being, you know, taken to the brothel. But the SS made sure to select in particular women who were in really bad conditions. So they would kind of fit in a volunteer and understand that if they don't obey, they're going to be sent out into another camp or into another work squad, back into the fields shoveling ditches and cleaning ponds, and it's going to be your end.
- [29:06]
A
So how does this work, then, day to day? Could you take me through it? Like it's a brothel system, but it's a system that the Nazis are using as a reward. So was it just that any prisoners could go there, they had to be given permission. And when they went there, what was. Do we know what. Oh, God, it sounds awful, what the routine was?
- [29:25]
C
Yeah, well, we actually do this, know this, and we know it from both sides, from women and men actually who went to the brothels. So what happens actually is, first of all, you had to get the voucher called the premium china, which is bonus vouchers, which were passed out to prisoners who worked better in the camp. Technically, in reality, they were actually passed to, from friend to friend. So kind of the four workers got the stack of them and says, well, and the says, give it to the people who work the hardest. And he gives this to his friends and keeps the most to himself. And, you know, you need to have these. And that means you have the currency to pay for the brothel, these bonus vouchers. Then you had to go to your block elder and say, I would like to go to the brothel. And then they gave you a little form. You have to fill up the form, very German, fill up the form and says, I hereby like to prisoner number listens from the block, listen, this nationality listens like, to ask the camp commander for permission to visit the brothel. And then he had to go through medical examination. The SS was kind of afraid of, you know, STDs, because STDs spread through, like, saliva. So prisoners who would share spoons and, like, you know, they would also, you know, get syphilis. You know, that's also possible. Basically, the doctor had to approve that this person doesn't have any contagious diseases. And then the camp commander got the piece of paper and he put a stamp on it and signed it. And, you know, obviously he checked if the person was able. Was kind of in the group who was allowed to sort of Jewish prisoners were never allowed. Soviet prisoners of war were never allowed Some other minor people were not allowed. For instance, like Spaniards were not allowed in the beginning, and then later on they were depended on the camp. So then also the camp commander checked if they do anything wrong in a camp. I mean, it's kind of a weird thing. But anyway, in the end of the day there was a roll call. So the roll calls in the morning, all the camp has to appear the roll call square. And then evening is also one. The prisoners stand there. And then the camp commander says, okay, for the brothel today, then reads out a bunch of numbers. And these people have to wait. Everybody disappears. All these other prisoners go into their barracks and those people just march in columns to the brothel barrack, which is usually a separate barrack and of the camp, kind of hidden almost. So they march to there, and then there the SS checks again the numbers, because sometimes people trade bread for the privilege to go to the brothel. So maybe like some, I don't know, some Polish prisoner is not allowed to go to the brothel. But he says, I want to go there. So he gives them a piece of bread. And then one signs in the name and then it changed positions in the column. I mean, it's very weird things happen. And then they go to the brothel. And then inside the brothel, there's also a doctor. They have to. To like lower their pants, show their genitals to the doctor. And then often they get some cream put on it. Nobody knows what that was. And then I had to stand actually in line waiting in front of the brothel rooms, very often with their pants down already. So they were waiting in line in this corridor of this barrack where the left and right these rooms were. And then the door opens and as man kicks them inside and closes the door inside of the room was a woman waiting half undressed. There was a spy hole in a door in which the SS men made sure that all the rules were obeyed. And there are certain rules, like only the missionary position was allowed. No shoes on the bed, no talking and so on. And after 15 minutes, they opened the door and got the prisoner out of him. And the woman had to wash herself.
- [32:21]
A
No shoes on the bed.
- [32:23]
C
Yeah, it's ridiculous. Sometimes no talking even. And then the next prisoner came, and that's the way it worked. So we can see, as I was saying before, there's nothing erotic about it.
- [32:32]
A
Would they use condoms?
- [32:34]
C
They would not use condoms because for the ss, if the woman got pregnant, it was like proponent abortion. That was easy for them. It's the logic. Condoms were too expensive for them, I think.
- [32:44]
A
Okay, Is there any record of who came up with this 15 minute window? This is horribly organized. Bizarrely organized.
- [32:52]
C
Yeah. And some of the camps was even 10 minutes only. And sometimes they even had the bell which rang. If you have 10 minutes and bam, the bell rang and the door opens and then you get thrown out of the brothel. I mean, that's the way it works. I don't know. They came out in 15 minutes. I think they thought, men need 15 minutes only. I don't know.
- [33:09]
A
And there'd be somebody looking at them the entire time, right?
- [33:14]
C
Exactly. There was s man so garage actually patrolling in this main corridor. So the men were standing there with their pants down, waiting to get inside of the room. And as s men would go by. And then they also make jokes about it. Look to the spirit. Oh, can you see this guy? Ho ho, look at this. It's funny, isn't he? The SS also used it for their own amusement. I have to say the SS was never allowed to visit the brothel of the buildings themselves. They never were. I know this from all the camps. They will never, never do this. I have never heard about any case where it happened. Because also that would have been probably the SS would have been punished. Was probably himself being sent to a concentration camp for that. Because there was a rule you could never talk to prisoners and you're never allowed to touch even prisoners for that. So even men were not allowed to do that also. I mean, of course, I mean, this is a prisoner, a female prisoner and he's an SS man. So that wouldn't have worked for the SS either. From the hierarchy themselves. Yeah.
- [34:04]
A
So in your research, you've spoken to some of the survivors. And I mean, we could spend hours and hours talking about what their experiences are. But I'm just like, when they look back on it, like there's obviously there's the horror of the Holocaust, but is it complicated by the fact that there was forced sexual labor as well? Because there's a shame and a stigma that goes with that. I'm thinking about in France after the Second World War when they went round the brothels and found the women who'd been working there and seeing German clients, and they shaved all their heads publicly and there was this extra layer of shame. How have they understood their experience?
- [34:43]
C
Well, the thing is, rarely any woman ever talked about this. After the war, they tried to keep it quiet. Some went back to Poland, like Polish prisoners, and they kind of totally ignored it. They never talked about it. Even the German women never did. Just silence. Because as you just Explained the shame of like being in a brothel. There's some women actually talked about it after the war, right after it. Because I felt this is part of my camp experience. I'm honest enough to talk about it because I'm a prisoner. I was treated as a normal prisoner by you other prisoners too. So yes, I want to talk about it. But very soon the society kind of shut their eyes on it. And I mean the post war societies we talk about Eastern Germany was the communist memory of the Holocaust, which was very kind of politicized. And of course there was no room for that. Especially also since in eastern Germany, prisoners, a lot of the communist prisoners who later on had higher positions in an East German state. Right. In a communist state. And some of them actually were visitors of the brothel. And so it was another reason why they didn't talk about it in the western Germany. They didn't talk about the Holocaust at all until the 1970s. Right. I mean, that was a very particular situation. But what's also actually a little more extreme, you have to understand that many of the women in the concentration camp brothels, especially with German women, had been brought to the camp as so called antisocial women. The SS tried to find antisocial women in particular because first of all, many of them were sterilized already. On the other hand, women were also like as antisocials, already stigmatized as weird people and kind of excluded from the people's society, excluded from the Volksgemeinschaft and the so called antisocial people. Camp prisoners were excluded from compensation after World War II. So they weren't even victims considered of victims of the Nazi state or victims of Nazi atrocities. So many of the women after World War II just never got any compensation. And it was just actually four years ago that the German government finally punish him as prison dice. Four years ago.
- [36:29]
A
Four years ago, right.
- [36:31]
C
I mean, it's absolutely incredible to imagine this, but I mean also to say that sort of decision the German state made after the war is actually what the Allies imposed on the Allies said, you know, we denazified Germany. The new German state has to compensate political prisoners, prisoners who were imprisoned for racial or religious reasons, but they excluded all the criminal and antisocial prisoners, all of them. I mean, the British did it, the Americans did it, then the Russians and the French all agreed on that. And that was the basis of the German commemoration politics. And as I said just four years ago, finally they broke with that and included the antisocial prisoners. So many of those women. And I can Say that most of the German women actually were so called, mostly like antisocial prisoners. They never got any compensation because they never even were seen as victims by the post war society. And when you look at, for instance, at other countries like Poland, I mean, Poland is a Catholic country, of course, a communist country with a Catholic kind of religious background. Of course they were. I mean, that would have been the end of their story if they talked about it. I'll give you an example. I know of a woman who married one of her friends. She was in a brothel in Neuengame, which is the camp near Hamburg. And after the war they had a son and the son never knew about this. And a few years ago I was asked by researchers from a serious TV station if I can help him find someone. And then I, you know, contact and said, you know, I have this case here. I mean, do you know anybody? And he said, yeah, we have the sun and the son. I can contact the son. And they contact, contacted the son and said, oh, by the way, your mother, as you probably know, was in the brothel in Orangame. And he didn't know it. Of course he didn't know it. And he was shocked. It was kind of, it was, I mean, shocking experience. And wow. A lot of it actually also has to do with the fact that we never acknowledge those people, especially the antisocials. I mean, it's like, you know, if you remember, like, antisociality was evil crime in the UK under Tony Blair, right? You know, where the antisocial social behavior became a crime. So it's like our society is not even aware, you know, that people with that kind of background should be kind of victimized or should be victims. And that's part of the problem.
- [38:26]
A
I'll be back with Robert after this short break.
- [38:37]
D
Ever wondered what it feels like to be a gladiator facing a roaring crowd and potential death in the Colosseum? Find out on the Ancients podcast from history hit twice a week. Join me, Tristan Hughes, as I hear exciting new research about people living thousands of years ago, from the Babylonians to the Celts to the Romans, and visit the ancient sites which reveal who and just how amazing our distant ancestors were. That's the Ancients from History hit.
- [39:15]
C
The.
- [39:15]
A
Men that visited the brothels. How do they understand that experience now? I mean, it's very difficult in it because we're not there. And in those particular situations, those circumstances, it's. I don't know how anyone makes any moral judgment about how people survive this, but do they look Back at it with shame, or how do they understand what happened?
- [39:37]
C
Each man is different. The men I talked to were mostly Polish prisoners, survivors of Auschwitz. And they went to the brothel and I talked to four of them. And it's interesting that each one has a very different approach to it. The one was, he went one time, he said, I only talked to the women. I couldn't do anything. I wasn't physically able. And he left. That's it. The second one was kind of just bragging about it. It's like, oh, my goodness. You know, I went to my friends, oh, look at this. I went to this woman, isn't she beautiful? And the guy said, oh, wow, you got the most beautiful one. So he was really bragging about it. Some other people talked about badly about the women. I mean, not only the visitors, but also, like, some women got a pretty bad reputation in some of the camps because, you know, the communist prisoner said, oh, you're. You're kind of your whores and, you know, we don't want to deal with you. And also there was a lot of jealousy, you know, because of the living conditions. Women inside of Auschwitz would go, and all of a sudden see these women passing by, and they're just dressed and hair and perfume and civilian clothing, and they even know how to fill their stomach in the evening. So it's a very, very different world.
- [40:32]
A
World.
- [40:32]
C
And so in this case, they were seen a kind of negative view. But it depends. And it's kind of the society and prisoners and camp societies are very different. I mean, some men were talking positive about women, some fell in love with women, and some just, like, talked badly about them, I guess, especially that many of the. Or some of the male prisoners of the camps would talk badly about the women even. That also kind of hindered us from making the subject public because, you know, they already had a bad reputation in the camp, so why should we talk about it even?
- [41:01]
A
Are there any of the women who work there, Are they still alive today or have they all passed?
- [41:06]
C
So the last one I tried to contact in 2009, which is about 15 years ago, and I don't think there's anyone still alive. Men, actually. I mean, even if you see survivors today, I mean, they were mostly 14 or 15 when they were like, in 45. So women in the camp brafils were mostly in their early 20s. So the chances are very low. I try to investigate on some people, and I'm actually in contact with a woman. She's a granddaughter of a woman who was in a brothel In Dachau, and she lives in Australia right now. She was very interested about hearing the story. So she knew that her grandmother had a bad life after the war especially. I think she even killed herself. So a very tragic story, but you want to find out about it. And when she found out about it, she was kind of. I don't think it had a negative impact on her. She saw her as victim and understand the trouble she went through in the case.
- [41:52]
A
There were women's camps as well. I think I know what you're gonna say here, but there was never any kind of incentive, sexual incentive provided for them. Oh, that sounds like a mad question when I've just said that out loud. But, like, it's all focused on the men and the male prisoners, or was there any kind of equivalent for the women? Or is it just. This is just something for men?
- [42:13]
C
What do you think?
- [42:14]
A
I think it's just something for men. That's what I think.
- [42:16]
C
Absolutely.
- [42:17]
A
Yeah. Right. Okay.
- [42:18]
C
Yeah, Kate. Absolutely. You're right. Because, I mean, it's like, you know, you also just logically think of the logic of the Nazis. For the Nazis, the men were everything. Hitler, even. I mean, Hitler. Even the word woman in the book. In Hitler's book, Mein Kampf only appears, like 10 times. He doesn't even talk about women. It doesn't exist for him. And at one point, he says, you know, he talks about sexuality and how do you deal with STDs? And he says, you know what? Women, they don't even have their own sexuality, so why should we talk about women? I mean, it's kind of a. They kind of stated the second oath. Wow. I don't know if you know this, but homosexuality among men was a crime, was an offense. Homosexuality among women didn't exist for the Nazis, because how can two women who don't have an own sexuality even have a sexual relationship? You know, then also, like, analogic, can only happen through penetration. So if you can't do this, I mean, it's like, you know, and so the Nazis kind of stated, women don't have their own sexuality. Women even have to talk about this. Period. End of the story. Right? And so they had to produce children or they had to satisfy the men. Right. And of course, in the Ravensburg, where the women were selected, homosexuality among women actually happened. I mean, it was seen and it was actually punished also. But of course, there was never any intention, like, to build brothels for women. I mean, how many brothels are there for women today?
- [43:27]
A
Yeah, yeah, it's true. I Mean, there are people that provide sexual services for women, but I'm gonna struggle to think of a brothel for women. But it just. My God, this is such a complicated history, and you've been so amazing to talk to us. But as a final question, although I could keep you here for hours and hours, honestly, I could. How do we remember this history today? Is this integrated into how we understand the Holocaust yet? Or is it still something that is approached with a certain. Even within the history of the Holocaust, there's still a taboo around this.
- [44:03]
C
I mean, I think it's our duty as historians and as adults today to talk about it. It's part of the Holocaust. You can't deny it. And if you want to talk about the Holocaust, you have to include the women. You have to give them a voice. You have to speak about their fate, about them, their torturing. You have to understand it as a part of the Nazi system of killing people, of destruct, destroying people. It's part of the ideology. We see cases, and I'm working actually really closely together with NGOs to put memorials at the camps for women who wear in a brothel. I don't know. In December this year, on the 17th of September, we put one of the stumbling blocks. I don't know if you know this, maybe you have it in the UK as well. Stumbling blocks in front of houses where people were victims of the Nazis and it just has her name. And then what happened to the people? And we put them, for the first time ever in the history of Germany, or probably in the world, a stumbling block for women. Who was a forced sex slaver in Buchenwald.
- [44:48]
A
Actually.
- [44:48]
C
Actually. So there's a lot of people who are active, and it's also like on a university level, people talk about it. But I think the problem is maybe a little broader, a bigger problem, as we like to have them included in the discourse of the Holocaust. The discussion, the talking about the Holocaust gets less and less. Doesn't mean that we're not talking about the subject of forced labor, sex labor in the camps. The problem is we don't talk about the Holocaust anymore. And I don't know if you know the situation in Germany, but even though it was a far right rising quickly in Germany, Germany. Do you know how many professorships we have in Germany on the Holocaust? One.
- [45:19]
A
Wow.
- [45:20]
C
Right? I mean, this is the situation in Germany. We do have memorials and we have, you know, in schools, it's mandatory to visit a concentration camp, but it stops at a certain moment, and it stops at the point where we have to continuously talk about the Nazi atrocities and remind people that we should never should do anything possible to never have happening again. But unfortunately it doesn't happen. And that's the problem. You know, it's like the current situation in the world is kind of, it goes into a different direction. I mean, of course, you know, we do everything possible to as historians, also as NGOs and women who are actually very strong about this fear. We have to integrate the history of those women into the narrative of the Holocaust. And of course they're very strong doing this. But then on the other side, we are facing a society which becomes less and more and more conservative and less and less aware of talking about the atrocities of Nazi Germany.
- [46:04]
A
I'm so glad that you are talking about it, Robert. And we'll give you the full title of the book again because it's out now. You can go and buy it now. The Concentration Camp Brothel, Forced Sexual Labor Under Nazi Rule. And are you available on social media media if anyone wants to follow you to learn more about your work?
- [46:21]
C
Yeah, I'm available on Facebook, which is kind of old school. I will create an account very soon and let you know how to follow me.
- [46:27]
A
Well, thank you so much for coming by. You have been fascinating to listen to.
- [46:31]
C
Thanks.
- [46:37]
A
Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Robert for joining me. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like, review and follow along whatever it is you get your podcast. If you'd like us to explore a subject or if you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us@betwixtoryhit.com this podcast was produced by Sophie G. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again. Betwixt the Sheets History of Sex Scandal in Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.
- [47:10]
B
Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I've got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough.
- [47:25]
C
And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head.
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B
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