The Mother of All Tudors: Child Bride to Kingmaker

Summary

Podcast Summary: Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society

Episode Title: The Mother of All Tudors: Child Bride to Kingmaker
Date: December 9, 2025
Host: Dr Kate Lister
Guest: Lauren Johnson, historian and author

---

Overview:

This episode explores the life of Margaret Beaufort, the formidable grandmother of the Tudor dynasty—far more than a dowdy figure in a wimple. Host Dr Kate Lister interviews historian Lauren Johnson about her new book, delving into Margaret’s traumatic early years, dynastic marriages, survival during the Wars of the Roses, and her behind-the-scenes role as "kingmaker." The discussion is lively, candid, and shines a light on the gendered power politics of medieval England.

---

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Margaret Beaufort: Child Bride with Royal Blood

• Margaret Beaufort was a 15th-century noblewoman whose story begins with tragedy and intensity.
• "Just think, what the hell were you doing at the age of 12? Yeah, not that." (Kate Lister, 05:08)
• She gave birth at just 13 years old, an astonishing and traumatic fact that shocked both host and guest.
• Her royal claim was via the Beaufort line—a lineage both legitimate and controversial, descending from John of Gaunt and his mistress-turned-wife Katherine Swynford.

2. Marriages and Trauma

• Margaret was married off at 12, to a man in his late 20s (Edmund Tudor), for mercenary reasons—to secure her estates and dynastic claim.
  • "Her getting married wasn't that unusual. So she gets married at 12, which is the legal age of consent for girls. For boys it's 14. Her husband is not 14. Her husband is in his late 20s." (Lauren Johnson, 12:47)
  • This was not normal behaviour even for the era; most noblewomen married young but did not cohabit or consummate until later.
• The experience was physically and psychologically damaging, and likely left life-long effects.
  • "It seemed like a miracle that so tiny a body could bring forth a child at all." (Lauren Johnson, quoting John Fisher, 18:07)
• Her mother tried to protect her as best she could within the constraints of the era.

3. Widowhood, Survival, and Second Marriage

• Edmund Tudor died of plague or fever before Henry was born, leaving Margaret a widow at 13.
• Margaret remarried strategically to Harry Stafford, son of the Duke of Buckingham, aiming for protection and political stability.
  • "Realistically at this point, the best way that I can protect myself and this baby who doesn't have a father...is to have a patron." (Lauren Johnson, 24:32)
• Being a wealthy widow had some advantages, but it was a precarious position, especially during the Wars of the Roses.

4. Navigating the Wars of the Roses

• The series of conflicts (Lancastrian 'red rose' vs. Yorkist 'white rose') kept Margaret in a constant state of adapting alliances.
  • "It's pretty much Game of Thrones, but with...white rose of York, red rose of Lancaster...They spend about 10 years just sort of...the odd battle here, the odd attack there." (Lauren Johnson, 28:22)
• Margaret prioritized survival and the restoration of her son’s rights above all else.

5. Margaret's Relationship with Her Son, Henry Tudor

• Despite being separated during Henry’s childhood, Margaret later worked tirelessly to advance his cause from behind the scenes.
  • "She is able just to...slowly gather in these favors: 'Oh, could you just lend me a little bit of money? Send it to Calais...'" (Lauren Johnson, 41:00)
• As Henry’s prospects improved, Margaret became a central—not merely supportive—figure in his rising bid for the throne.

6. The Kingmaker Moment: Henry’s Claim and Bosworth Field

• Margaret’s political maneuvering was crucial after Richard III seized power and the princes disappeared.
  • "I know someone who’s been abroad for ten years...It needs to be someone who has some sort of blood connection to the throne...She's like, Henry Tudor. This is it." (Lauren Johnson, 38:18)
• She orchestrated a network of support, funding and facilitating Henry’s return and eventual victory at the Battle of Bosworth.
• Henry’s ascendancy surprised many, and Margaret’s influence was vital during his awkward early days as king.
  • "I would be absolutely astonished if she isn’t there being like, 'Okay, so this guy here, we don’t trust him.'" (Lauren Johnson, 48:25)

7. Legacy and Reputation: Schemer or Survivor?

• Margaret’s image as a scheming matriarch overlooks the evolution of her role and the precariousness of her position.
  • "It is absolutely absurd to imagine that you have a 13-year-old...who looks at her baby and is like, I know what you’re going to be one day. Ridiculous." (Lauren Johnson, 52:19)
• Lauren Johnson emphasizes Margaret’s adaptive intelligence and the deep respect she and Henry shared as adults—challenging the “tiger mum” stereotype.

---

Memorable Quotes

• Kate Lister ([09:07]): "It's just not true what they say about teen mums, is it? That she is the living, the living proof."
• Lauren Johnson ([14:26]): “The average age of first child for most aristocratic women in this time [is] 20. So this is really young."
• Lauren Johnson ([19:49]): “Physically and psychologically deeply damaging…I suspect, psychologically and physically deeply damaging.”
• Kate Lister ([43:20]): "I couldn't be bothered...Like, just, I'll stay in Brittany. That's...I'd never have been a great historical figure."

---

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:03 – 05:08: Introduction to Henry VII and Margaret Beaufort’s place in the Tudor mythos.
• 06:48 – 09:07: Lauren Johnson’s “meet-cute” with Margaret in history and realization of her remarkable youth.
• 12:47 – 14:26: The context of child marriages and how Margaret’s case was unusual—and dangerous.
• 23:15 – 24:32: Strategic remarriage and surviving as a widow in a volatile period.
• 28:22 – 32:10: The continual shifting alliances and dangers of the Wars of the Roses.
• 38:05 – 41:00: Margaret as the architect of Henry’s return, the risks she faced, and the web of support she built.
• 46:28 – 47:05: Battle of Bosworth – Henry’s first battle, Stanley’s pivotal switch, and Margaret becomes the king’s mother.
• 48:54 – 52:19: Margaret’s later life, her real power, and how history has recast her as a schemer.
• 52:45 – 53:24: Closing reflections, book details, and how to find Lauren Johnson’s work.

---

Conclusion

The Mother of All Tudors: Child Bride to Kingmaker reconstructs Margaret Beaufort as a survivor, strategist, and crucial royal architect, not the ice-cold manipulator of legend. Lauren Johnson’s expertise and Kate Lister’s irreverent enthusiasm make for a vivid portrait of medieval power and female agency. Whether you’re a Tudor enthusiast, a women’s history buff, or just a fan of “historical smut,” this episode delivers a compelling, corrective look at one of England’s most misunderstood matriarchs.

Transcript

[Lowe's Announcer]

Whether you're gifting, decorating or treating yourself, Lowe's December deal drops are here to help you save more all month long. Get up to 50% off select holiday decor plus get up to 45% off select tools and accessories. Shop new December deal drops every week this month and get so much more out of your holidays Lowe's we help you save Selection varies by location While supplies last.

[Instacart Announcer]

This holiday season, Instacart is bringing magic to the people who make it magic for others. Get delivery and deals on everything you need this season. Whether it's a last minute holiday decor, emergency, coverage for the holiday party, or just avoiding going out in the cold, Instacart is here. Plus November 24th to December 23rd is deal month with savings from your favorite retailers and deals on grocery, electronics, beauty, toys and more. Download the Instacart app to get a little magic delivered today.

[Paradise Fold Sponsor/Host]

This episode is sponsored by Paradise Fold, the silk hair wrap brand that does wonders for your locks. Elizabeth I, Shirley Temple, Charles II and me. What's one thing we've all got in common? Curls.

[Kate Lister]

But if you know anything about having.

[Paradise Fold Sponsor/Host]

Curly hair, it's that it can take a lot of time and product to get these curls exactly how you want them, especially after a good night's sleep. Well Betwixt us, Paradise Fold may have the answers to all of our hair problems. And not just for the curls, but for all hair types. They can even help you handle changes in hair texture from menopause and stress. Made in London, Paradise Fold hair wraps are beautifully made from 100% silk of the highest grade, are double layered and reversible. This keeps your hair healthier, more hydrated and less frizz without the need for chemical based products all while you sleep soundly. They don't even fall off in bed. And on top of that, Paradise Fold is a carbon positive company and the hair wraps are sustainably made. So for a confidence boost and some of your much needed time back, grab a Paradise Fold this week. You get access to a free lifetime care and alteration service if you head to Paradise Fold this week and you'll get a free gift with your first order.

[Kate Lister]

Hello my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. Thank you for listening to Betwixter Sheets, home of as much historical smut as your little hearts can handle. But before we can have any of that said smut, I do have to remind you that this is quite a smutty show. Apparently. Here it is. This is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about Adulty things in an adulty way, covering a range of adult subjects. And you should be an adult too. And I do have a note here from my producer, hello, Sophie, to let everybody know. Know that this is quite a spicy episode. We will be covering themes of child abuse and you just might not want to listen to that one today. In which case, get out now while you still can, and we'll catch you in the next one. Right, on with the show.

Henry VII. Henry the. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 8. Henry VII. Arguably one of the most famous names in history.

[Lauren Johnson]

It is.

[Kate Lister]

It just is. We don't like him, but he's famous. In fact, he's so famous, he kind of encompasses the very word Tudor, doesn't he? He is the Tudor, the original. Or is he?

[Paradise Fold Sponsor/Host]

Hmm.

[Kate Lister]

What about his dad, Henry vii? We never hear very much about him. We hear quite a bit about his children, Eddie, Liz and the first Bloody Mary. But there were Henry's before him. And of course, what about the source of the Tudors? His grandmother, Margaret Beaufort. Not a Tudor, but a Tudor maker, that's for sure. And certainly quite a formidable woman in her own right. And her fault that now we have a Tudor onslaught on tv, on podcasts and film. It's everywhere. And we're gonna do another one today. So let's get cracking and learn more about Margaret Beaufor.

Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society, with me, Kate Lister. Matriarch is a bit of a dry word, isn't it? Mind you, it depends how it's being deployed. I wouldn't mind living in a matriarchy, that's for damn sure. But if you say matriarch, it kind of brings to mind, I don't know, an elderly woman doing knitting, keeping an eye on everything, doesn't it? Maybe it doesn't. Well, it shouldn't, that's for damn sure. Matriarchs were powerful and the woman we're talking about today, she wasn't sitting around knitting, or if she was, she was knitting some kind of war plans. All right, that may have been a bit excessive, but from the age of 12 at most, Margaret Beaufort was in the corridors of power.

[Lauren Johnson]

And.

[Kate Lister]

And in this episode, Lauren Johnson is going to tell us all about it. Just think, what the hell were you doing at the age of 12? Yeah, not that. Who was this woman? And where would the Tudors have been without her? Crowns at the ready, everyone. Let's do this.

Well, hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Lauren Johnson. How are you doing?

[Lauren Johnson]

I'm good, thank you, Kate. A little bit snoozy as always. I always, I think that's what I say every time I say hello to you. I'm a bit sleepy today. I'm like one of Snow White's dwarves.

[Kate Lister]

You've got the startled look of an author who's just published a book.

[Lauren Johnson]

Yes, very much the deer and headlock.

[Paradise Fold Sponsor/Host]

How are you feeling?

[Lauren Johnson]

Oh, it is so lovely in lots of ways to have it out in the world. It's a book I've wanted to write for a long time. My one sided love of Margaret Beaufort goes back many years.

[Kate Lister]

So let's give it its full title. Your new book, you need brain, baby. It is Margaret Beaufort, survivor, rebel, kingmaker. Good title.

[Lauren Johnson]

Thank you. I mean, there were lots of adjectives at various points, as you can imagine.

[Kate Lister]

I love the stories of titles of books of like, was that the first one? What was the story there? There's normally bad stories about editors getting involved.

[Lauren Johnson]

Yeah, yeah. This was about 4 years and 15 people's worth of thinking around this. At one point I think it was called Margaret Beaufort, the Winner Takes It All. But I was in an ABBA phase, so.

[Kate Lister]

So I quite like that one. But there will be people listening to this going, who, what? What's happened? Margaret Beaufort, abba, What's going on? I'm going to start with my opening question, which is Margaret Beaufort. Who was she and when did you first come to meet her?

[Lauren Johnson]

She is a 15th century noblewoman and that was all I sort of vaguely knew about her, to be honest. I came across her when I was doing my A levels many moons ago and I was a bit bored, if I'm honest, doing my history. A level, the wars of the Roses, just it seemed like a lot of arcane, you know, titled people who were named after bits of the countryside, fighting in other bits of the countryside and changing sides every two minutes. And they were all men. That was what I was getting from the books I had. And one day I came across a reference in one of the books to the mother of the Earl of Richmond, who, you know, you just think 15th century noblewoman. You have the image essentially of what Margaret looks like, you know, in her famous portraits. Very dour, very old. And I found out that when she gave birth to the future Henry VII, founder of the Tudor dynasty, that she was 13. Holy.

[Kate Lister]

What?

[Lauren Johnson]

Yeah, that's phase one, Kate. Phase one is that she was 13.

[Kate Lister]

I feel like I need to join the police.

[Lauren Johnson]

I wish someone Had.

[LifeLock Announcer]

Fuck.

[Lauren Johnson]

Phase two is her husband who had impregnated her. You know, at 13, was already dead of the plague, having been involved in a siege of a castle in Wales. And she was just sort of like completely alone. Pretty much not completely alone. She's still a noble woman. She's got servants, but completely isolated from the people she cared about in this like war torn plague zone with this tiny baby who is ultimately her only child. And like just the bare bones of that, you know, imagine I was 16, 17, being like, wow, when she was my age, she had a four year old and the four year old was handed over to one of the Yorkists responsible for the death of her husband. Like, it was just so movie epic. I just fell in love with her at that moment, to be honest. And I always wanted to tell more of her story and then more of the story of the other women in the wars of the Roses as I came across them. And, and she is astonishing. It's just the unlikeliest story that you begin there and you end up with her being the mother and then grandmother of the Tudor dynasty. She survives to see Henry VIII safely on the throne and then dies eating a swan.

[Kate Lister]

It's just not true what they say about teen mums, is it? That she is the living, the living proof. Oh my God. Well, okay, I'm not surprised that you've been fascinated by her. So that is a very quick introduction to this woman. But let's 13.

Like you're not. We're gonna get to this. I'm, I'm now stuck on this, on this bit, but we'll, we'll build up to it.

[Lauren Johnson]

Well, I was too. Don't worry. I think most people are holy. And that was her second marriage also. That's the other thing. No, Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

I mean she's fucked up, aren't they?

[Lauren Johnson]

They are. And what's like really fascinating as well. Like I was a bit obsessed with Henry VII as well and I thought his story was quite amazing. You know, he grows up without a father. This father's dead before he's born. But actually so does Margaret. Her father dies when she is less than a year old. She's brought up by a strong mother. Again, very sort of redolent story. And just the fact that you have these two sort of like slightly weird little individuals in the 15th century navigating it and coming together and being driven apart. And coming together and being driven apart and eventually ruling an entire kingdom, I mean, kind of between them. Because Margaret is a real powerhouse as well. It's Incredible.

[Kate Lister]

So she's the mum of the first Tudor king in a sort of a nutshell. And we know how that all got there. Sort of a bit Richard III and a bit stabby. But let's take it back. Her long, long, long life before she became his mum. All of 13 years. Holy shit. Like, what is her background? Where did she come from? You said she's a noblewoman, so I assume she's not, like, roughing it around a council estate or anything. What was her. How did she even get in line to be giving birth to kings?

[Lauren Johnson]

I mean, like a lot of people in the 15th century, she's descended from Edward III. Aren't we all? You know, I mean, I'm not, but pretty much everyone you meet in the 15th century is. But she is descended through an illegitimate line, the Beaufort line, that goes back to John of Gaunt having an affair with Catherine Swinford, his servant. So they're a Lancastrian family, but they're a little bit sort of in and outside of the elite. They are part of it. They're part of the royal family, kind of, but they're also not officially part of it. There's a whole parliamentary statute says they can't, you know, claim the throne for.

[Kate Lister]

Themselves because Jon have gone knocked up his servant, that's why.

[Lauren Johnson]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, the legitimacy that they get the. And it's like a papal legitimacy. A parliamentary legitimacy happens when their eldest child is, like, 20, so very after the fact. And Margaret's descended from that line through her father, who, like I say, dies before she's one. So a father of whom she probably has, like, maybe a sense memory and that is it. She does not know him at all. And he dies under. Under a cloud, certainly maybe under slightly suspicious circumstances. There are rumours later that he might even have taken his own life. He is certainly in disgrace. He's had a completely disastrous military campaign that he comes back from France just like and effectively is banished at the time, that Margaret's mother, another Margaret, unfortunately, everyone is called Margaret in this story. She is pregnant with another child. So, like, again, Margaret Beaufort's mother is someone who I feel like has not been given her due attention and interest either. It's the mother who kind of keeps Margaret Beaufort safe from this horrible beginning.

[Kate Lister]

Marrying at 13, like, all right, she's a noble woman, she's got legitimacy, although it's got a slight. You know, like, people might be whispering about it and raising their eyebrows at court, but, you know, they're there. Marrying at 13. Tell me about that was that unusual for the time. What on earth was anyone thinking?

[Lauren Johnson]

Her getting married wasn't that unusual. So she gets married at 12, which is the legal age of consent for girls.

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Lauren Johnson]

For boys it's 14. Her husband is not 14. Her husband is in his late 20s, so substantially older than her.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, no.

[Lauren Johnson]

And he really is. He's just angling for the money because she's got a lot of landed estates, a lot of cash through her lands, and also this potential blood claim to the throne. He wants those. And in order to get them, the best thing that he can do is impregnate her quickly, because even if the child dies, even if she dies, he is then going to have a claim on her estates. But like you say, this is not normal behavior. This is a really mercenary act on his part. What people usually do, even if they're married very young and they might be arranging marriages from when they're babies, you know, is they wait until a girl, and I use the word girl advisedly, is physically able to have a child safely. So we're talking 16. I think 20 is the average age of first child for most aristocratic women in this time. So this is really young. I mean, even the fact that Margaret Beaufort had periods is quite unusual. Like, obviously it's a bit difficult to know, isn't it? But the demographic studies there are seem to suggest that puberty was later in the Middle Ages. Interesting. So I feel like about 14 was sort of a fairly common age to be starting your periods. And she evidently must have started earlier because as soon as she's getting her periods, it seems she is pregnant. Wow.

[Kate Lister]

What did her mum say about all this? Just to help yourself. Off you go. Have a lovely time. What on earth is going on?

[Lauren Johnson]

No, it's kind of the tragedy of it, I think my impression is very strongly that her mother was trying to protect Margaret because we know that there had been this sort of specific contract made between Margaret's parents and the King, who's King Henry VI at this time, that if he died during this military campaign, he was off on that the baby Margaret would be kept by her mother, that she would be looked after by her mother, rather than, as was completely within the King's rights, her being removed from her mother and just handed off to some other random guardian who. Who wanted her land. Okay, so there's that to begin with, and then there's multiple sort of instances of Margaret's mother protecting her children because she has several other marriages and several other children in which she's doing it legally, she's doing it a bit unscrupulously. We know that Margaret and her mother have a very long and it seems affectionate relationship for the whole of Margaret's life. So I think almost certainly what happened here is that there was this like collusion probably among men would be my suspicion, powerful men around King Henry vi who went, this is the marriage, this is the time it's going to happen. Edmund Tudor, you just take your child bride off, you go to Wales, we'll just deal with it. And the mother has to accept it because now this child is 12. So it's absolutely fine. And I don't think that her mother wanted it. It is possible that Margaret might have been like, oh, well, I'm 12, I'm old enough to deal with this situation.

[Kate Lister]

Possible, I guess. I guess. So who's, who's this husband then, apart from him being in his. In his late 20s? Tell me, tell me who he is so I can hate him properly.

[Lauren Johnson]

He's someone I always wanted to like. I was very annoyed when I found out more about him. He's called Edmund Tudor. There are. How to put this. So yet another illegitimate, like half sibling situation. We've got the Beaufort's illegitimate half siblings of a Lancastrian way back in time. Then under Henry vi, we get yet more illegitimate half siblings of him because his mother, Queen Catherine Valois, once French princess, wife of Henry V, in later life remarries her servant Owen Tudor, who is a Welshman and has a number of children with him, including Edmund and including Jasper Tudor, who goes on to be very important under the Tudor.

[Kate Lister]

Jasper Tudor, right. I never heard of him.

[Lauren Johnson]

Okay. And Edmund and Jasper, because of this Welsh lineage with their father, they kind of take over some of the sort of Lancastrian overlordship of some parts of Wales during Henry VI's reign. Like we've talked about Henry VI, really ineffective king. Everyone else kind of has to do the actual business of running things. He's confronted with the House of York sort of vying for position. And York has quite a lot of Welsh power as well. So the Tudors are sort of ratcheted in to try and counter that and assert Lancastrian dominance. So that's what Edmund Tudor is there to do basically. And he's kind of given this wealthy child bride almost as a sort of like, here you go, this is your sweetener. Off you go and fight the Yorkist.

[Kate Lister]

Right, okay. But he's not royal yet, not officially.

[Lauren Johnson]

If he's royal at all, it's through his Mother who is French, and as we know in England, that obviously means nothing.

[Kate Lister]

It doesn't mean a damn thing. All right? So I just can't imagine this at the age of 12, getting married. So she gets pregnant very, very quickly. I mean, if you found any evidence that anyone at the time was going, that's a bit fucking weird, or is just all of that lost to us?

[Lauren Johnson]

Not at the time, but what there are is quite a lot of kind of telling tidbits from later in Margaret's life, both by her and by her confessor, John Fisher, who is one of the, like, major sources for her sort of interior life, really. He writes a lot about her thoughts, her feelings, her expressions. And he makes this, what I find to be quite a creepy speech. I think it's meant to be funny, but it's a bit creepy in, like, 1506. So Margaret, by then is in her 60s, and he does a speech to her at Cambridge, her and Henry vii, and he says, oh, look at this. Look at this little lady here. She's so tiny. When she gave birth, she was even smaller still. If you can imagine it, it seemed like a mirror miracle that so tiny a body could bring forth a child at all. So that immediately suggests not only that everyone could see she was a tiny, and probably had been a very slight child when she was married, but also that I suspect there was a general understanding of it, because I don't think he'd be saying something like that in a public forum if. If she hadn't enabled him to do that in some way, if she hadn't maybe made a joke of it.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, yeah, you're right. Yeah, that would be.

[Lauren Johnson]

There's a few references, actually, in other places to her sort of joking about how small she is compared with especially the Yorkists. The Yorkists are all really tall. They're like, you know, it's like if you went to London Fashion Week, if I was there, there's sort of little. Little wide dwarf looking up at goddesses. That's how Margaret sees herself.

[Kate Lister]

You'd have only said that if that was a joke that was already in currency at the time, I think, wouldn't he?

[Lauren Johnson]

Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

Do you have any information about the pregnancy and the birth itself? Because, like, she's 13, she's not developed for this.

[Lauren Johnson]

No. It's very frustrating because the short answer is, we don't have that information. The longer answer is, again, reading between the lines, it seems to have been, I mean, I would say traumatic. I use that term advisedly, I suspect, psychologically and Physically deeply damaging. Again, John Fisher makes references later to how afraid Margaret was at this time. That she was afraid that like her, her baby in her womb would get the plague that had killed his father. She was afraid of everything that was going on at the time. Like I say, very small. There's also an interesting reference later in Margaret's life when she has a granddaughter who's going to get married. Margaret Tudor, who goes on to marry the King of Scotland. And both Margaret Beaufort and her daughter in law, Elizabeth of York, the Queen, they both intervene to stop Princess Margaret being sent to her husband too early. And it's very specifically said like they don't want her to go because she's quite underdeveloped for her age again like Margaret Beaufort had been. And they worry that if she went to Scotland, her husband like couldn't restrain himself and he would hurt her.

[Kate Lister]

Right, okay.

[Lauren Johnson]

So I mean to me that really suggests that there is an understanding that birth and sex within marriage can be damaging.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, yeah, I'd forgotten that her husband died of the plague. You said that just there. So she's also a widow at 13. And was it the plague like the Black Death that he died of?

[Lauren Johnson]

Or it might have been a like jail fever as well because he was imprisoned after having been involved in this siege. But yeah, we're not completely sure. She is very worried about the plague for the rest of her life, which to be honest, I mean, we've all lived through a pandemic. I feel quite worried about plagues at this point in my life.

[Kate Lister]

So. Fair, fair, not a problem there.

I'll be back with Lauren and Margaret after this short break.

[Lauren Johnson]

El programa nacional de vegas hace serde McDonald's.

And McDonald's Punto com yagonal a ser.

[VRBO Announcer]

With savings over $390 this shopping season, VRBO helps you swap gift wrap time for quality time with those you love most. From snow on the roof to sand between your toes. We have all the vacation rental options covered. Go to VRBO now and book a last minute week long stay. Save over $390 this holiday season and book your next vacation rental home on VRBO. Average savings $396. Select homes only.

[Kate Lister]

So who is this baby then? This poor little girl who has been forced to give birth. Husband's dead. I'm not sad about that, to be completely honest. But who is this baby?

[Lauren Johnson]

This baby is Henry Tudor. There is a later myth that perhaps he was going to be named Owen after his grandfather, who presumably is a godfather as well as. And that Margaret intervened and said, no, he should be named after the king. He should be named after the people I'm related to. Not completely clear. If that's a bit of sort of retrospective, you know, connecting Henry to the king, to kingship in general, it's not totally clear, but I think it is believable because what we know is that within about two months of giving birth, which is both, according to, like, church custom and also, let's be honest, medical guidance, I suspect about the earliest you can be getting up and around and moving independently. So, like, as soon as possible after giving birth, Margaret leaves this baby, Henry, and goes and arranges a marriage to someone else.

[Kate Lister]

Why is she doing that? Because one of the things I have learned from speaking to many, many, many different historians, and indeed my own research, is being a widow was awesome. That's like the best bit. That's like you get married, you have to put up with a little bit of, like, oh, God, huffing and puffing, or in Margaret's case, flat out abuse. But then he dies and you get everything, and then you can just be like, no, actually, I'm all right. I'm too sad to marry again. I'm just too sad to do it. So why is she deciding she wants to get married again?

[Lauren Johnson]

You're right that in most cases, being a widow is brilliant in this era, I think, and maybe this is a little bit early for that, but certainly later in the wars of the Roses, it's actually a bit dangerous to be a widow or sometimes to be married to an exile. So a husband who's still alive but has rebelled and then gone into exile, because women are supposed to, in this period, be protected from the actions of their husbands. So if a husband, for instance, is attainted, that is, he's condemned as a traitor. All of his stuff is forfeit. Women's possessions are supposed to be protected. But we see time and again throughout the wars of the Roses that that does not happen, that there are little legal loopholes or that people just intervene and take stuff from them, that women are put into the care of care. Inverted commas of guardians, effectively jailers, to be honest. Other lords who are monitoring them, who are stopping them from having any involvement in, you know, the legal, the political actions of their relatives in helping rebel against the Crown, basically. And because Margaret is so wealthy throughout her whole life and because she has this blood connection, distant as it is, I think she recognizes that she is in a really vulnerable position. And I also suspect that she was like, I have had something awful happen to me, it's been imposed on me. I am not going to let that happen again. I'm going to take control of things. Realistically at this point, the best way that I can protect myself and this baby who doesn't have a father, so is in exactly the same position I was for my entire life. The best way I can do that is to have a patron, basically, to have a political ally with someone from a, like someone from a family that's got power of its own.

[Kate Lister]

So who does she go for?

[Lauren Johnson]

She goes for a very little known individual called Harry Stafford. Someone so unimportant that no one even really knows when he was born. Probably he's older than her again. Crucially though, he is the son of the Duke of Buckingham and the Duke of Buckingham. I mean, there are only what, like three dukes in England at this time anyway. It's one of the highest ranking, sort of almost princes of the kingdom.

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Lauren Johnson]

And he is also one of the last people who is still kind of trying to keep the wars of the Roses in check. He's got connections on both sides, York and Lancaster. He has been around Henry VI since Henry was a baby king. And so he is one of the only people who can kind of intervene and try and keep control. And again, this is really interesting that Margaret chooses that family. So it's not an out and out Lancastrian family, it's not out and out Yorkist, it's someone in the middle. Cause she's like, that way, whatever happens, we're probably going to be all right. And the other, I think, big sell of Harry Stafford is that by marrying him, Margaret gets to go back to the territories that she grew up in, because his lands are also in Lincolnshire, in and around Lincolnshire. So that means effectively what I see her doing is she's almost like cutting the Tudor ties completely. As far as we know, she leaves Henry in Pembroke Castle, she goes away and lives with her new husband. And crucially, she's living right next to her mother, her half siblings, where she grew up, a place of safety and security. And I think that as well is part of the attraction of this marriage that she is able to thereby like just restore a bit of protection and comfort to her life.

[Kate Lister]

That makes sense. All right, it's not a completely hare brained scheme then. She's still so young, she's still like what, 14 at this point?

[Lauren Johnson]

Yeah, 14 times married.

[Kate Lister]

Much smarter than I was at 14. Quite frankly, I don't want to say what, what was the wars of the Roses, because we don't have enough time for that. But can you attempt to give us a sort of an overview of, like, what was happening at this point? It was just chaos, wasn't it? It was Game of Thrones, basically.

[Lauren Johnson]

Yeah, it's pretty much Game of Thrones, but with. Let's keep it really simple. White rose of York, red rose of Lancaster. Henry VI is Lancastrian, so he's the red rose, the Duke of York, Richard, Duke of York, white rose. And they spend about 10 years just sort of like, I mean, fannying around, really. Just, you know, the odd battle here, the odd attack there. It just sort of escalates and escalates and escalates until finally, during the time that Margaret is married to Harry Stafford, Henry VI is deposed, he's driven out of the kingdom, and Richard, Duke of York's son, teenage son, Edward, Earl of March, becomes King Edward iv.

[Kate Lister]

Right.

[Lauren Johnson]

And very swiftly, Margaret and pretty much all of her relatives make peace with Edward IV and are like, right, that's fine. He's the guy. Now we're all Yorkists.

[Kate Lister]

Smart. Okay, yeah. Okay, then how do we get from this to her being a kingmaker? Because it seems like she could have just sat back and just gone, look, we're all Yorkists. This is all great. I'm just gonna sit over it and do some needlework. But that doesn't seem to be what fate has got in store for her.

[Lauren Johnson]

No, I mean, again, the wars of the Roses are such an absolute mess. I mean, like, such a cluster, I would say. Yeah, I would have said shit show. So we get to, like, 1469-71. I'm not even going to go into detail, but everyone swaps back and forth and back and forth and back and forth. And Margaret tries to be a sort of a little political manipulator. She tries to engineer it so that she is able to get control of her son again so she can restore his estate.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, yeah. Where's he in all of this?

[Lauren Johnson]

Sorry, no, he's just in Pembrokeshire.

[Kate Lister]

Right, okay.

[Lauren Johnson]

Don't worry about it, Kate. He's living in Wales.

[Kate Lister]

He's fine. He's fine. Okay, Right, continue. Sorry.

[Lauren Johnson]

Well, this is the thing, like, so I do want to kind of emphasize it really, is that at this point in time, Margaret has not been involved in his life. He is, what, like, 11 years old almost by the time she actually, as far as we know, meets him again, like, she leaves him in Wales, she goes to Lincolnshire, she resurrects her relationship with her family, she just forgets all about him. And I suspect she is thinking, oh, well, that's all behind me now. I'm gonna have a normal air quotes marriage. I'm gonna have children with this husband and they will be the people I'm gonna kind of invest a bit more energy in because they'll be around.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Lauren Johnson]

And instead what happens is that she doesn't have any more children. We don't know if it's a choice. We don't know if it is just a sort of legacy of the trauma of the birth that she's had. My suspicion is that, that whether physically or psychologically, it just wasn't possible and that she had hoped for children. And it's only when she starts to think, okay, I don't think this is going to happen, that she resurrects a relationship with her son and that that's when she starts to be a bit more present in his life.

[Kate Lister]

Jesus. Just getting a letter from your mum, aged about 12, just going, remember me? Oh, God, that's so weird.

[Lauren Johnson]

Well, she might have been sending letters, to be fair, we don't have loads of detail for the first few years of the 1460s, but it does seem like the first time she goes back to Wales and sees him is 1467. So he would have been 10 years old at that point.

[Kate Lister]

Tudor mothers suck. Right, okay, but is she politically involved at this point? I mean, think about the War of the Rose. Again, we can't go into it. We're gonna have to move past this quite quickly. Is that like, as much as I'm joking that she could have just sat down and, you know, just sat this one out? I don't think you could really. It was so all encompassing and so messy and such a complete and utter disaster. It's a bit like saying that you could sit Brexit out. It's like you can't. It's there like you're either for or you're against, like it's gonna get you. So how was she involved in this?

[Lauren Johnson]

I think she tries to sit it out for a while. I think the trouble is, is. And like, again, this is the complexity of it is we're talking about a span of time that's 20 to 30 years. And within that time her opinions completely change. So for most of that period of time, firstly, she's very hands off. Then when she remembers she has this son and would like to have a relationship with him, she decides that, I mean, really all she wants is for him to get what's his right, which is the earldom. Of Richmond, which has been taken away and given to someone else while he's a child. That's her concern. And then in 1471, he goes into exile because the Yorkists start to seem quite threatening towards the Lancastrians. So he flees overseas and she just doesn't see him for 11 years, basically. But she never loses sight of the fact that in order for him to come back and to have any sort of future in England as a noble man, he has to make peace with the ruling regime. And then he needs to get this earldom back, like that is. That's her aim, is to sort that out for him. And she manages to do it in around. Well, not quite manages. She almost. She's on the very precipice of having sorted all of this out. In 1482, she makes a deal with Edward IV of York that Henry can come back. If he makes peace, he'll be completely safe. And I should say, by this point, most of the Lancastrians have been killed one way or another, you know, by fair means and foul. During the wars of the Roses, he is starting to be one of the very few who is left alive.

[Kate Lister]

But he's just in France, just, like, on a massive gap year.

[Lauren Johnson]

Brittany.

[Kate Lister]

Brittany, right. Okay. So is he doing anything that's threatening when they said that, you've got it, you've got to make peace if you want to come back. Was he writing nasty letters to the king? Was he like.

[Lauren Johnson]

No, I think that's. I think that's why Edward IV is willing to make a deal with Margaret for Henry's return, is because, like, Henry Tudor is sort of the model citizen, really. Like, his uncle has been, you know, locked in Harlot Castle for years, defending the Lancastrian. Cause there's other people who've been breaking out of prisons and leading armies. Henry's never done any of that. He's like. He just wants a quiet life, I think, probably. But at the point that Margaret finally manages to make a deal that would secure Henry's safe return, with his life safe and his ability to kind of take up his position as Earl of Richmond, Edward IV dies and everything goes to hell in a handcart. And I think, like, that's what we need to understand about Margaret at this point.

[Kate Lister]

Had Henry come back from Brittany before he died, or was this, like, he gave up the ghost?

[Lauren Johnson]

In negotiations, the deal is made. I think Henry is still suspicious that it is not actually going to keep him safe. And then within nine months, Edward is dead. So, yeah, Henry vii, by this point still, still on the continent, the wars of the Roses kicks off again and it starts to become, I mean, just so labyrinthine in the political shenanigans that are going on at this point. But effectively, as we know, Richard, Duke of Gloucester takes the throne instead of Edward IV's children. The princes disappear in the Tower. The princesses, one of whom was kind of earmarked to marry Henry Tudor, they all disappear into Westminster Abbey in sanctuary. So, like, there's no real inducement there for Henry to come back and marry them now. And Margaret is like, well, I had this great idea, guys, what have you done?

[Kate Lister]

You fucked it up. Oh, my God. Oh, she must have been this close.

[Lauren Johnson]

To sorting it out.

[Kate Lister]

It's like this is when. When the, when the King died.

[Lauren Johnson]

Just go.

[Kate Lister]

Did he leave any notes? Did he mention anything to anyone?

[Lauren Johnson]

Yeah. Was there. Was there just maybe a parchment that he'd scribbled a picture on? All right, okay, so HT4 Liz of York.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, you'd be fuming. You'd be so angry. All right, okay, so he's dead, she's cross, he's still in Brittany. How does she get him back?

[Lauren Johnson]

How does she get him back?

[Kate Lister]

That is the.

[Lauren Johnson]

That is the question. And I'm not going to go into the whole Princess in the Tower stuff, obviously, but it is like, it is an important backdrop to everything that's going on and why Margaret behaves the way she does. I mean, there's a bit of a tacit threat to her and her then husband, who is a different man called Thomas Stanley in 1483, because Richard, Duke of Gloucester has had quite a fractious relationship with Thomas Stanley. They've had run ins in the past, most recently in the wars in Scotland. Like, they were real issues only a year before. So, yeah, Stanley's not necessarily one of Richard III's major supporters, but he is very good at sort of maneuvering himself back into people's good graces. So he manages to, like, persuade Richard that he can be useful. Margaret Beaufort, I get the impression, is just sort of sitting and seeing what happens.

[Kate Lister]

Waiting, just. Just waiting to see your powder dry. That's what my mum says, keep your powder dry.

[Lauren Johnson]

And then I personally think this is my interpretation. Other interpretations are available, controversial, that the princes in the Tower, if they are not dead by summer 1483, most people think they are.

[Kate Lister]

So they've gone to live on a nice farm in a. In a different state with some people that are going to look after them.

[Lauren Johnson]

That's what's happening. Yes. But, yeah, that's not the prevailing feeling at the time. Most people seem to think these princes have died, Richard III has killed them. And that's not okay. Like, that's the very short version of events.

[Kate Lister]

That's a fair assumption, yeah.

[Lauren Johnson]

I think Margaret is in the camp of people who are like, I don't think you should have killed your nephews, actually, I'm not really sure I want to do business with you. And as she's looking around and she's seeing, okay, Richard III isn't really going to help me with my plan. Henry's never going to make it home at this rate. And he's nearly 30.

[Kate Lister]

What was he doing nearly 30, letting his mum sort everything out for him?

[Lauren Johnson]

Just drinking cider.

[Kate Lister]

Talk about the invisible labor of women. This is exactly what I'm talking about.

[Lauren Johnson]

Yes, exactly. So, and I mean, to cut a long story short, I think Margaret is thinking, well, I'm not happy about this. We know that other members of her family are definitely opposed actively against Richard because they've got links to Edward IV's household. They're not happy about what's happened to the princes in the tower. They think Richard should be got rid of and someone should replace him. If it can't be the princes because they're dead, well, then who is it going to be? And Margaret, in her little tick, tick, tick, tick, tick brain is like, so it needs to be someone who can, like, ally all of these different factions who are trying to kill each other. I know someone who's been abroad for 10 years and therefore hasn't been involved with any factions. It needs to be an adult man because they're probably going to have to fight. Oh, I know someone who's an adult man. And it needs to be someone who has some sort of blood connection to the throne. So, like, ding, ding, ding. She's like, Henry Tudor. This is it.

[Kate Lister]

Boom.

[Lauren Johnson]

But, like, I really want to emphasize, this was not the plan all along. This is the plan because of what Richard III does in 1483. He makes this situation and Margaret is just trying to, like, get her family safely through it. Unfortunately, the way she does that is she leads this. Well, she doesn't lead. She engineers a big rebellion. Henry Tudor leads it. He nearly gets killed because he comes, like, to the very shores of England on a boat. He's waving at people on land. They all go, hello, we're your friends. He's like, something seems a bit off. He sails back to the continent and Margaret is effectively imprisoned because the rebellion totally fails.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, that was a rebellion, him coming over on his boat and waving.

[Lauren Johnson]

Yeah, well, I mean, there were lots of other people doing actual rebellion. Yes, unfortunately, just everything. Everything went wrong. I mean, there's just no way to even go into it. Like, the weather's against them. The Duke of Buckingham's over here doing something. Another, like the West Country's doing something. Everyone's completely uncoordinated in 1483. So the rebellion totally fails.

[Kate Lister]

Right, okay. And Margaret's in. In jail. Oh, no.

[Lauren Johnson]

Yeah, she's in, like, Aristo jail. Right.

[Kate Lister]

Not like Wormwood Scrubs, then.

[Lauren Johnson]

No, she's living in her husband's house, but she's not allowed her servants, she's not allowed to send messages. She's legal, you know, she's not allowed to raise any money. And the thing that would, like, be really offensive to her is that pretty much all her lands are taken away. So she has nothing. It's all taken away. It's. Stanley gets to keep it for his lifetime, I should say. That's an important difference for his lifetime. And he's 10 years older than her. When he dies, everything is lost. That's what she's looking at at this point. So, I mean, effectively she's like, well, now I have literally nothing to lose.

[Kate Lister]

Nothing to lose now, right, yeah.

[Lauren Johnson]

Me and Henry haven't got anything, so, I mean, we might as well try again. And that is what they do in 1485. And in the interim, I think it's like, I think it's really important to remember that as much as Margaret is sort of, you know, locked away probably somewhere in the northwest of England, the people she's connected to, you know, the merchants who've been stocking her household, the various messengers who've been working for her, the priests who go roving around all over the country, all of those people are still active, they are still moving about, some of them back and forth across the Channel as well. It's really difficult to reconstruct because, like, of necessity, it's kept totally secret at the time. But you really get this sense in the after effects of 1485 that Margaret has kind of been this little spider in this vast, like, economic web, basically, of people. She is connected financially to so many people and by bonds of loyalty and connected over generations, because by this point she's in her 40s, and as we mentioned, she's been, you know, a wife since she was 12. So she has so many links to so many people who, like, who owe her that she is able just to, like, slowly Gather in these favors, like, oh, could you just, could you just lend me a little bit of money? I tell you what, don't send it to me. Could you just send it maybe to Calais and then in Calais it gets sent on to someone else and then it gets sent to Henry. People are fleeing the country and where do they go? They go to Henry. So, like, as much as her movements are restricted, she is undoubtedly still raising money for Henry, which is enabling him to raise an army, come back and fight.

[Kate Lister]

I hope he's doing some work as well. I hope this is just. Isn't just all his mum doing all of this for him.

[Lauren Johnson]

No, to be fair to Henry, he's doing a. He's doing a lot of work as well. I think it's probably a bit of a difficult situation he's in, but what's like, he's not really remembered as being very charismatic. Henry vii, but there must have been something about Henry that he was able to like, coalesce 500 people is like a conservative estimate of the number of exiles who have joined him in France. By this point, he's moved, okay, go home. And to be able to be like, yes, I will. I will reclaim this kingdom. It is rightfully mine. All of you, gather to me.

[Kate Lister]

I couldn't be bothered.

[Lauren Johnson]

There must have been something. Could you be bothered with that?

[Kate Lister]

Could you be bothered with that? Like, just, I'll stay in Brittany. That's. I'd never have been a great historical figure. That's why people like me never made the history books. I'm just going, nah, you're all right.

[Lauren Johnson]

Yeah. I mean, it's difficult, isn't it? Because, like, they have such a different worldview, these aristocrats. They have such a sense of like, this is mine, I should claim it. Whereas, you know, I'm like, oh, I don't want to impose.

Could you give me a tiny amount of money for my work, please? I'm like.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Lauren and Margaret after this short break.

[LifeLock Announcer]

The holidays mean more travel, more shopping, more time online and more personal info and more, more places that could expose you more to identity theft. But LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second. If your identity is stolen, our US based restoration specialists will fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Don't face drained accounts, fraudulent loans or financial losses alone. Get more holiday fun and less holiday worry. With LifeLock, save up to 40% your first year. Visit LifeLock.com SpecialOffer terms apply.

[Kate Lister]

All right, so what happens next? She's in jail, but she's obviously wheeling and dealing behind the scenes. Henry is amassing exiles and then, and then there must be a push, there must be a right, this is it, this is go day.

[Lauren Johnson]

Yeah, he manages also, to be fair to Henry, he manages to get a lot of support from the French court and French soldiers and Scottish soldiers as well. Slightly inexplicably, he makes it all the way to Wales, not England. He lands in Wales, he progresses through Wales, gets towards what is Bosworth Field in Leicestershire. And at this point it is still completely unclear if Margaret's husband is going to help him or not. And this is quite pivotal because Margaret's husband and his family have, I mean, tens of thousands, potentially of soldiers who they can call on to help Henry. So he really needs them. And Stanley is just the absolute master of like, nah, I think I'll sit this one out actually, guys, don't worry about it. But, and again, I think this test, this testifies a bit to Margaret's influence. We know that her stepson George, Lord Strange, we know her brother in law, Sir William Stanley, other members of the Stanley and Savage families, they do go over to Henry as soon as he lands. They are in his army or in George or Strange's case, held hostage. Bit of a side note. So, like, there is enough of a wellspring effectively of support that at a crucial moment in the Battle of Bosworth, which again, just to emphasize is Henry vii, Henry Tudor's first ever battle that he fights in.

[Kate Lister]

I didn't know that.

[Lauren Johnson]

28. Yeah, he may have turned up to 1 when he was 12, but like, this is the first one he's fighting in and he somehow manages to get the Stanleys to come over to him. They play a fairly inglorious part in the whole proceedings and just sort of go around massacring people. Richard III rides his horse directly at Henry, tries to kill him, tries to take out the enemy instead, is himself killed. And suddenly, pretty unexpectedly, I think to a lot of people, Henry Tudor is king and Margaret is now the mother of the King.

[Kate Lister]

I mean, what. I'm not sure if anyone saw that coming. I mean, they must have hoped. They must have hoped, but there must have been a real.

[Lauren Johnson]

They were not ready. You can literally see them in sort of the accounts that they're keeping, just scrabbling around, being like, has anybody got any velvet? Has anybody got a flag? He looks rubbish. We need him to be king.

[Kate Lister]

Easy. Oh, fucking hell.

[Lauren Johnson]

Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

All right, so he's King Richard and I know there'll be Ricardians Listening. So, you know, sorry for your loss. He's dead and gone and Henry is the fucking king. Oh, my God. Margaret must have been pleased.

[Lauren Johnson]

She was, yes. And I think Henry was probably pleased that Margaret was there, because he comes into this kingdom. Like I say, he's lived either in France, Brittany or Wales his entire life. He has never spent time in the English court. He's got no idea how things work. Really?

[Kate Lister]

Wow.

[Lauren Johnson]

He needs someone who is an insider for all this stuff. And Margaret is. She has been at court for years and years and years. She knows how things run. She knows what Henry should do. And because she is a woman, a lot of what she is doing is behind the scenes. It's not recorded, but I would be absolutely astonished if she isn't there being like, okay, so this guy here, we don't trust him. Don't invite him to your party, Actually, maybe invite him, but put him somewhere where he's not going to sit next to this other person and cause trouble.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, okay.

[Lauren Johnson]

I mean, we know she's arranging marriages because that's kind of an acceptable thing for a woman to do at this time. But I think it is undoubted that she is helping Henry rule the country almost from the first moment that he is king.

[Kate Lister]

Does she have a happy life from here on out? I mean, I know there's a lot of debate around. Was this the plan the entire time? Was she scheming this from. From her earliest days as a child bride, but now it's here. Did she have a good time?

[Lauren Johnson]

Yeah, I think so. Good.

[Kate Lister]

Excellent.

[Lauren Johnson]

Right.

[Paradise Fold Sponsor/Host]

Okay.

[Lauren Johnson]

Well, Margaret, that's the end. No, it is undoubtedly quite difficult. So this is 1485. Henry VII and Margaret lived to 1509. And throughout that time, there's more rebellions, there's more things to overcome, there's pretenders, there are troubles.

[Kate Lister]

God, you can't just. People can't just leave well enough alone, can they?

[Lauren Johnson]

My God. I know. And Margaret, I think she sort of. She is part of the court for a very long time. And then as soon as she is able, I think she sort of withdraws and she becomes what's called a vowess, which means you have a living husband, but you're effectively operating independently. And she goes like, it's ruling the Midlands.

[Instacart Announcer]

I know.

[Lauren Johnson]

It'd be good, wouldn't it? Yeah. It's almost like being a nun. Which is why in her pictures, she always looks like a nun. But you don't have to have a dead husband. And that's the key, really, is that her Husband, like, very inconveniently just doesn't die, so they have to keep him on side. And yet also, Margaret would really like to have some power of her own, please.

[Kate Lister]

So then as a final question, I mean, well played, Margaret. All throughout this, you can't, you know, you can't deny that is her reputation because her reputation is as this sort of scheming, manipulative, Cersei, Game of Thrones, Machiavellian type of sneaky woman. Is that well deserved?

[Lauren Johnson]

I don't think so. I really don't. And again, it's a, it's a thing we do with historical people, isn't it? Is we see them as something static and it's like this is a person who lived for 60 plus years obvious, and their circumstances totally changed during that period. Obviously, what they wanted and who they were altered over time. And I think it is absolutely absurd to imagine that you have a 13 year old who's just given birth in traumatic circumstances, who looks at her baby and is like, I know what you're going to be one day. Ridiculous. Especially as at that point in time, there's no way anyone would think that this kid is going to be the ruler of the kingdom. There's too many people. And I, like I said earlier, I just don't think it comes about until Richard III's actions make it an imperative for Margaret's survival and her son's survival. I think that's what does it. And then in later life, she's in a really weird situation because she's the king's mother, but her husband's still alive and so she has to navigate that. Which means that I think maybe people have a slightly weird idea about her power or that she's exerting too much power or she's too independent or she's too influential on the king. And again, like the accusations that she's too influential on Henry come quite far into his reign. It's by the time that people, other people are starting to die off and she sort of has to step up and help him because, you know, the wars of the Roses lot are all gone, lots of his advisors and the people who were in exile with him are dead. Like, who else is going to help? She does. And I also think, like, she is not this sort of, I don't know, like this tiger mum, mother from hell sort of figure. She's quite detached from Henry for a bit, quite, quite a lot of his life and I suspect felt very guilty about it and was trying to prove her affection and her worth to him once he was actually in, you know, the same country as her. And I think that was kind of the foundation of their relationship. Is it? To me, it's really beautiful because it's two adults coming together and being like you. I have a lot of respect for you. Prove yourself to me over and over again. There's something in you that is also in me. And I think it is a really beautiful relationship, actually. And I think it's been twisted into a bit of a, I don't know, either an Oedipal or a, you know, a weirdly obsessive one. And I don't think it is that at all.

[Kate Lister]

Lauren, you have been marvellous to talk to. Thank you so much for introducing me and a whole lot of other people to Margaret Beaufort. Give us the full title of the book again.

[Lauren Johnson]

It is Margaret Beaufort, Survivor, Rebel, kingmaker.

[Kate Lister]

And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you? Not the rich of the third people. Leave her alone, right? Just go and do something else.

[Lauren Johnson]

Just be nice to me, please. Just be nice. Historylauren.co.uk is my website where there are various events and other things related to the book going on. And also I'm on social media mostly as historylauren.

[Kate Lister]

Amazing. Thank you so much and the best of luck with the book. It looks amazing.

[Lauren Johnson]

Thank you.

[Kate Lister]

Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Lauren for joining me. And coming up for the new year we are looking at the filthiest people in history in more ways than one. And to keep up to date, don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is you get your podcasts. If you would like us to explore a subject or if you just fancy saying hello, hello and a happy new year, you can email [e-mail] this podcast was edited by Tim Arstall and produced by Sophie G. The senior producer was Freddie Chick. Join me again. Betwixt the Sheets the History of Sex Scandal in society. A podcast by history hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.

[VRBO Announcer]

Vrbo's last minute deals make chasing fresh mountain powder incredibly easy. With thousands of homes close to the slopes, you can get epic pow freshies first tracks and more. Find last minute deals with the last minute filter on the app. Book a private vacation rental [e-mail] suffering.

[LifeLock Announcer]

From dry, tired, irritated eyes. Don't let dry eyes win. Use Sustain Pro. It hydrates, restores and protects dry eyes for up to 12 hours. Sustain Pro Triple Action Dry Eye Relief.