The Power of Medieval Gossip

Summary

Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society
Episode: The Power of Medieval Gossip
Host: Kate Lister
Release Date: July 8, 2025

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Introduction to Medieval Gossip

In this episode of Betwixt The Sheets, host Kate Lister delves into the intricate world of medieval gossip, exploring its profound impact on society, gender dynamics, and power structures during the Middle Ages. Joined by Eleanor Yarniger, co-host of the sister podcast Gone Medieval, Kate unpacks how gossip served not just as idle chatter but as a powerful tool for social cohesion and control.

The Role of Gossip in Medieval Society

Kate sets the stage by highlighting the ubiquitous nature of gossip in medieval times. She explains how communal activities, such as sewing and spinning circles, were prime settings for women to exchange information and secrets.

Kate Lister [04:00]: "In this episode we are gonna have a good old gossip about women gossiping about gossip in the past."

Dunbar's Gossip Theory and Social Cohesion

Eleanor introduces Dunbar's Gossip Theory, drawing parallels between primate social grooming and human gossip. She elaborates on how gossip evolved as a means to maintain group cohesion beyond the physical limits of grooming.

Eleanor Yarniger [08:15]: "Gossip is a way of social grooming, allowing larger groups to maintain cohesion by sharing information about group members."

This theory posits that gossip enables individuals to navigate social hierarchies, establish trust, and reinforce community bonds, making it an essential aspect of medieval social life.

Gendered Perspectives on Gossip

A central theme of the episode is the gendered perception of gossip. Kate and Eleanor discuss how, historically, gossip has been predominantly associated with women, often carrying a negative connotation.

Kate Lister [13:27]: "Women do gossip more than men. Men are shit at gossiping. Maybe they're just sneakier."

Eleanor counters by emphasizing that men also engage in gossip, but societal norms have deemed women's gossip as trivial or malicious, whereas men's gossip can be seen as legitimate information sharing.

Historical Punishments for Gossiping

The conversation shifts to the severe repercussions faced by those who gossiped, especially women. Eleanor recounts historical punishments such as the ducking stool and public shaming devices like skull masks, which were predominantly used against women accused of excessive talking or witchcraft.

Eleanor Yarniger [28:33]: "These women who are scolds, women who are gossips, they get waterboarded, essentially, as a form of punishment."

Kate adds that such punishments reinforced societal hierarchies and silenced women, ensuring that gossip remained a controlled and often penalized activity.

Kate Lister [29:15]: "The ducking stool and the skull's bridal thing were early modern."

Reputation and Social Hierarchies

Reputation, or "fama" in Latin, was paramount in medieval society. Both hosts discuss how gossip could either bolster or ruin one's reputation, directly affecting their social and economic prospects. Eleanor explains that in a world without modern communication tools, word-of-mouth was crucial for business and personal dealings.

Eleanor Yarniger [10:28]: "Your reputation is conceived of as an object that can be damaged by what others say about you."

This emphasis on reputation made gossip a powerful tool for both social bonding and social control.

Women's Social Restrictions and Gossip

Kate and Eleanor explore how women's limited roles in public spheres pushed them towards gossip as a primary means of social interaction. Eleanor highlights that post-Enlightenment societal shifts confined women more strictly to domestic roles, making gossip one of the few outlets for expression and connection.

Eleanor Yarniger [30:55]: "Women have been essentially now forced out of public. Medieval women are in public all the time, but post-Enlightenment, ladies live in the house."

Gossip as Soft Power

The hosts discuss the concept of gossip as a form of soft power, allowing women to influence social dynamics subtly. Kate brings up examples from literature, such as Jane Austen's novels, to illustrate how gossip functions as a narrative device to convey deeper social tensions and power plays.

Kate Lister [29:49]: "Gossip is a form of soft power, which is why it was associated with women a lot more."

Eleanor adds that this "soft power" can undermine male authority by spreading information that could destabilize social hierarchies.

Eleanor Yarniger [20:43]: "The information they carry has the power to damage reputations and shift power balances."

Tips for Responsible Gossiping

As the episode nears its conclusion, Kate and Eleanor offer practical advice on how to engage in gossip responsibly to avoid legal and social repercussions. They emphasize the importance of discretion and the potential dangers of written or recorded gossip in the digital age.

Eleanor Yarniger [35:34]: "Don't put it in writing. It will come back to haunt you."

Kate concurs, highlighting that handling gossip face-to-face remains the safest method.

Kate Lister [35:36]: "If you put gossip in writing, it's no longer gossip."

Conclusion

Kate wraps up the episode by reinforcing the enduring power of gossip and its deep-rooted connections to social structures and gender dynamics.

Kate Lister [35:57]: "You need to know who your gossiping buddies are because there's like buddies that you will just spill everything, but you're actually relatively confident that they're not going to go."

The episode concludes with reflections on how understanding the historical context of gossip can shed light on present-day social interactions and gender relations.

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Notable Quotes

• Kate Lister [04:00]: "In this episode we are gonna have a good old gossip about women gossiping about gossip in the past."
• Eleanor Yarniger [08:15]: "Gossip is a way of social grooming, allowing larger groups to maintain cohesion by sharing information about group members."
• Kate Lister [13:27]: "Women do gossip more than men. Men are shit at gossiping. Maybe they're just sneakier."
• Eleanor Yarniger [28:33]: "These women who are scolds, women who are gossips, they get waterboarded, essentially, as a form of punishment."
• Andrew Yarniger [10:28]: "Your reputation is conceived of as an object that can be damaged by what others say about you."
• Eleanor Yarniger [20:43]: "The information they carry has the power to damage reputations and shift power balances."
• Eleanor Yarniger [35:34]: "Don't put it in writing. It will come back to haunt you."
• Kate Lister [35:36]: "If you put gossip in writing, it's no longer gossip."

Final Thoughts

This episode provides a compelling exploration of medieval gossip, revealing its multifaceted role in shaping social hierarchies, gender relations, and community cohesion. Through engaging dialogue and insightful analysis, Kate Lister and Eleanor Yarniger offer listeners a nuanced understanding of how gossip has been both a tool for connection and a means of social control throughout history.

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For more episodes exploring the intertwining of history, sex, and societal norms, subscribe to Betwixt The Sheets on your favorite podcast platform. Join Kate and Eleanor as they continue to uncover the scandalous and intimate stories that have shaped our world.

Transcript

[Kate Lister]

Hello everyone, it's me, your host, Kate Lister. I'm just jumping in before the episode to ask you for a little favor. If you are enjoying betwixt, and I hope that you are, we'd love it if you could vote for us for the Listeners Choice Awards at the British Podcast Awards. If you follow the link in the show notes, it should take you to the place you need to go and it would mean the world to us. We were shortlisted last year and the one before that and the one before that. We were so close and it just made us want it even more. I think we can do it this year. Right on with the show.

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[Kate Lister]

Hello my lovely, but twixters. It's me, Kate Lister. Thank you for dropping by once again, I'm so glad that you did because if you weren't dropping by, well, what is this? It's just a mad northern woman talking to herself a cubicle. But you are here and thank God that you are. But before we can go any further, I do have to tell you this is an adult podcast book about adults to other adults. About adulty things in an adulty way. Coverage adult subjects and you should be an adult too. We call that the fair dues warning. Because if you keep listening and something upset you. Fair dues, we did tell you. Right, on with the show. Hello Betwixters. You have joined me at a very tricky moment. I am trying to thread this bloody needle and it's proving nigh on impossible. Why am I here? Why am I in a medieval sewing circle? Because this is the lengths that I will go to to get some grade A juicy gossip. And I'm not the only one. In the medieval period, spinning circles and sewing circles were known to be places that women could go to get some gossip. And I know we all look down on gossip. We scorn gossip. Oh, gossip is terrible. I'll tell you what betwixters, gossip is powerful and it has been all throughout history. And all of these women in this circle know that. And in this episode we are gonna have a good old gossip about women gossiping about gossip in the past. Right?

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Try.

[Kate Lister]

Try saying that five times fast. Okay, on with the show.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

What are you a funny man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you.

[Kate Lister]

I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing the button. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness. What beautiful d. Goodness has nothing to do with it, dear. Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets History of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. The cornerstone of any good friendship is gossip. Don't give me that. Oh, I don't gossip. Well, I don't want to know you then. I know it's not the highest form of entertainment and that maybe, maybe it's a little bit self indulgent, but hey, it is a cheap thrill and I am thoroughly here for it. What's more, it's a great way to bond. That has been proven scientifically, by the way. But joining me today to explore medieval female friendships and the power of gossip is the one and the only, the gossip Tastic. And Eleanor Yarniger, co host of our sister podcast Gone Medieval. How did courts try and punish gossip? How did gossip challenge power in the medieval period? And just who were they all gossiping about? Needle and thread at the ready, betwixters. Let's do this. Well, hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheeted. Elle and Ayanega.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Fancy meeting you here on your own podcast.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. They let you out?

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah, sometimes they let me stop recording Gone Medieval for, like, long enough to come talk to you. You're the only other person that I'm allowed to speak with.

[Kate Lister]

Is that true? You've been banned from the other podcasts?

[Eleanor Yarniger]

I mean, not yet, but I'm working on it.

[Kate Lister]

No. Well, I won't tell you why. Well, actually, I might do, because today we're talking about gossip.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Scandalo.

[Kate Lister]

I fucking love gossiping.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

I love a gossip. So I do. You know, I always say that really, historians, what we're doing is we're just gossiping about.

[Kate Lister]

Just gossiping. I think that.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Oh, yeah, I'm just talking trash about dead people 24 7. And frankly, baby, I love it.

[Kate Lister]

But when you do it 100 years after the events, suddenly that's elevated academia.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Look, I want you to know that I am an important public historian, okay? I am. I'm an intellectual. And also I have a lot of thoughts about these people.

[Kate Lister]

I've been through all of the sources. Well, that's what people on TikTok and Insta drama do as well. But they aren't viewed in nearly. You can't have a doctorate in gossiping. Maybe you can. I've said that.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah, you said that. Like, we're gonna get several doctors of gossip in the comments. And frankly, I salute you all. Please get in touch because I'd like to know more.

[Kate Lister]

I would like to know more. Why do we. Everybody does gossiping.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Oh, so true.

[Kate Lister]

Actually, no. Do you know what? That isn't true.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

We.

[Kate Lister]

When I was at my last job, I was the chair of the union for the last year. I was there at a university, right? And then the guy who took over after me was Jeff. And Jeff is a proper, decent bloke. He's proper old school and he didn't gossip at all. And I remember it really quite took me back.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

I'm sorry. I trust Jeff the least, but I put that on record, okay? Cause if you say you don't gossip, I'm like, oh, who are you gossiping with? You are absolutely storing it all up. And you're like, no, I would never.

[Kate Lister]

He didn't. I would. I'd be like, jeff, what happened in that meeting? He'd be like, well, I can't tell you what.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Which is, Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, we're beefing.

[Kate Lister]

But that.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

No.

[Kate Lister]

Do you know what? He was doing it professionally and properly. I was. But I remember being quite taken aback by the gist that. I'm sorry, it's not appropriate for me to discuss this.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Look, do you want to know the anthropological theory that I use to justify gossip? There is this theory. Dunbar's gossip theory.

[Kate Lister]

Right.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

And the idea here is that, you know, when you see your groups of monkeys, there's. Right. You see your great apes or whatever, and they've got a troop. And one of the ways that they create cohesion in a group is that they groom each other. You know, they do social grooming, and they sit down and they pick the bugs off of each other, and they hang out and they do that. The theory here is that one of the reasons we developed language is because you run up against an upper limit of how many people you can groom. Right. Like, you know, in order to say, okay, well, we're all a group and we're all looking after each other. How many bugs can you pick off of how many apes in a day? Right. But when you use words, can share information or talk about things that will prove that you're part of a group or that, you know people. And what gossip is doing is establishing that we're staying part of a group because we can both be like, Jeff, what's he like? Right. And a lot of the times when we use gossip, we do use it in a way where we groom, Right? So, you know, we'll share information on someone. We'll be like, this person is acting out of pocket. You know, things like that. So it's a way of kind of sharing information and establishing who is a cohesive group, like who is in and who is out.

[Kate Lister]

Wow, that makes me feel better for being a nosy bitch.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

You're welcome, quite frankly.

[Kate Lister]

But, see, I would have been. There are professions where Geoff was right. Like, you can't be a lawyer and gossip about your client or a doctor. I would have been terrible at those things. I'd have been an awful spy. I would have just given it away. I would love to have been a priest and hear the confessions.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah. I mean, this is the thing is that there, there are certain professions that specifically come with no, behave. And you know, they're. They. I mean, they've got to be talking.

[Kate Lister]

Someone to other doctors.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Like, I mean, that's why therapists have to have therapists. Right. It's just like kind of go in and do it.

[Kate Lister]

Right.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

But, you know, it. Absolutely. There are, there's going to be limitations to that. Right. And there are also kind of limitations that have been placed in society on the action of gossiping for quite some time. So, like, medieval people talk about this a lot. Right? Because for medieval people, there is an idea that you have your reputation like it is an object.

[Kate Lister]

They are really worried about that, like reputation. And I mean, we still are today. If you lose your reputation, it's a really bad thing. But they are very protective.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah, it's like so your fama, which is kind of like the Latin for your reputation, is conceived of as like an object that can lose. And so people, if they are saying things about you that aren't true, or even if they are true, let's be real, that can damage that. And in a society where there are business deals to be made and they're usually done specifically through reputation, you know, like no one can, like, Google you.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, yeah.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

And be like, oh, hey, is this guy like a reputable, you know, business partner? You need word of mouth that is going to say these things. And if you find out that this person is doing dodgy deals or, you know, he isn't to be trusted after a couple of beers, you know, these sorts of things that is going to really affect what you can and can't do in society. And so attendantly, we kind of start to see later in the medieval period crackdowns on gossiping.

[Kate Lister]

On gossiping. This sounds like the kind of thing you might need to gossip about.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

I know, right?

[Kate Lister]

Why would they do that? How on earth do you even do that? You just go and skulk around sewing circles.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Well, one of the things that you do is you start basically like a campaign against gossiping from a religious standpoint.

[Kate Lister]

So that's clever.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

I'm about to tell you something that you're going to love. One way that they talk about gossiping is they refer to it as the sins of the tongue. Okay? So it's like the idea here is that we begin to see, like, more things like hellmouths that have, like, tongues that are coming out of them that are underscoring the idea that loose lips, think ships and, you know, talking about people and all of that, that becomes increasingly something that we see reflected in art, where people who are scolds or who are gossips are in hell receiving ironic punishments. You know, like, there'll be frogs dropping out of their mouths or things like that. Yeah. For gossiping, you know, which is very naughty indeed.

[Kate Lister]

Right. We still judge it today. It's still. We still, like, despite that everybody does it. It still has a. Like, if you're a gossip, that's a bad thing.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah. And we use very specifically the term gossip in this particularly pejorative way. But it's interesting because in English, the word gossip actually originally comes from the term like godsip.

[Kate Lister]

Ooh.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

So the idea is that you would gossip with your God sibs, right? Like, you know, you're. You're talking with your. Your siblings. These people who are super close to you, the people in the village that are most, most close to you are going to be sharing information. And so the idea here is like, oh, well, I know what they're talking about. Right. Like, you know, they're the. Oh, the girlies are at it again and they're all going to be gossiping. So eventually, over time, we have this really nice term that is just kind of like a form of endearment or a way of talking about friendship or familial connections, gets negative things. And I mean, to be honest, it's because, you know who'll be gossiping?

[Kate Lister]

Women.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

I don't know if I haven't seen the research on this, I don't know if this is true, but in my subjective anecdotal experience, women do gossip more than men. Men are shit at gossiping. And I don't know if that's just because they're just sneakier and they just like having secrets.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

They're just gossiping about Sport girl.

[Kate Lister]

Oh, shit, that's so rubbish. Like, if I'd seen my brother or something and he's been, oh, God, my brother is in the military and I can't get anything out of him.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Do you know what?

[Kate Lister]

Another Jeff, he just shuts it down. He will not tell me anything about where the bombs are hidden.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Okay? So in the first place, you know what? I think dudes do be gossiping. But, you know, I think that kind of what happens here is in the same way where guys, especially under, you know, the heteropatriarchy, they're just hanging out with, like, their girlfriends all the time. They stop hanging out with the dudes. If you're not hanging out with the dudes, where are you going to get.

[Kate Lister]

That gossip from the gays can gossip.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Oh, a prodigious group.

[Kate Lister]

They gossip.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

God bless the troops. You know, they're. They're making the world a better place.

[Kate Lister]

That is top tier.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah. Oh, really good stuff. And so, you know, fundamentally. But actually, what it comes down to is that everybody gossips.

[Kate Lister]

Is there any research to say that men gossip more than women? Or why is it something that's associated more with women than men?

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Well, people don't really like women, do they? Is that what, you know, I mean, I think that fundamentally what it is is that there is a worry very particularly about what it is that women are talking about.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, Right.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

So it's not necessarily that men aren't talking trash, because they absolutely are. Okay. So there's this source that I love to play with, which is the archdiaconate protocol of Prague that is from about the year 1378 to about the year 1384. And what happens is there's a new archdeacon in town, and he's like, guys, I'm gonna go door to door in every parish, and I'm gonna be like, do you have any problems that I can help you with? And these men are just out there being, like, so and so, sleeping with so and so. Our priest is running a brothel. Those guys are. Have constructed wooden sex shacks in the churchyard that they charge access to. There's these girlies down on the corner. We don't know what they're doing. And, like, these guys just line up to tell all these stories about people. And, like, sometimes it's like, yeah, okay. Like, to be fair, if your parish priest is running a brothel, that's fair information, I think. I think that's fair information. He probably ought not be doing that. But then sometimes it'll be like, there's four chicks and they live in that flat.

[Kate Lister]

Huh?

[Eleanor Yarniger]

They're selling herbs. Okay.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, that's not as good.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

And that's not as good. Right. And so. So, you know, it is. It is kind of like devolving to the level of gossip because you have these things which are, you know, vital information in theory, that you need to get across within religious circumstances. And then sometimes it's just like, okay, annoying. Right. And so the men definitely are doing this. Right. And in these ways that can really damage people's lives. Right. You know, so we see repeatedly in this. For example, if they're complaining about, oh, there's these two girls that hang out down at the brewery, and I think they might be sex workers. Why do you think they might Be sex workers. Well, they're hanging out down at the brewery and the Archbishop is like, well, move them on and tell them if they don't leave, they can be excommunicated, which is like a real problem, right? Whereas like the men who get caught running a brothel, they're like, stop that.

[Kate Lister]

Okay.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

You know, even though they're priests. So it's like we're seeing kind of like a gendered reaction to what the gossip about people is.

[Kate Lister]

I'll be back with Eleanor after this short break.

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[Eleanor Yarniger]

And we also see these kind of real worry about who's talking about what when we very specifically see people talking about women right there. Is this real worry, for example, about what women are talking about when men aren't there?

[Kate Lister]

Well, you know your secret.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah, exactly, Exactly. So it's like we see this, for example, when people talk about the washing houses, right? So like, women all get together to do the laundry together because laundry sucks. It's just like the worst goddamn chore. It takes days to do it. It's like you gotta layer eggshells and lie in a thing and then you gotta like drag it down to the wash house where there's like running water and everyone like, helps bringing out the sheets and laundering things because it just, it just takes forever, right? And then so of course you're also gonna talk while you're there. And the men are like, what is she doing in there? Oh, no, is she talking about me? And they refer to these as the women's courts.

[Kate Lister]

Interesting.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

So, and it's like the idea is that in there Women are talking about things that they really ought not be talking about. It's like, what? I'll tell you what, the men are afraid, the women are talking about your dick.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, that's what it all boils down to. But also, I think that I've got this theory again, this. Professor Dunbar, give me a ring if you want to do anything with this. But I've got. It's just complete nonsense theory, probably, but. But throughout the history of sex work, which is something that I've studied quite extensively, trying to understand why there is stigma against it and around it, and I think a lot of it might be because of the information they carry. Like, it's far more multifaceted than that. But the fact that they see primarily women, seeing primarily men, and they see them at their most vulnerable, but also their most aggressive, and they are the people that know that they might have a spanking kink or want someone to piss on the head or whatever it is that makes you quite vulnerable. And maybe there's something about that, is that the wives, the women, the people are having sex with, see powerful men. I mean, when Stormy Daniels broke loose with the information that she. Absolute queen with the information that she carried about Donald Trump, I mean, it wasn't damaging enough to stop him being reelected, but it was damaging the information she had.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, this is something that. That is a very specific worry. Right. And this will come out later in kind of like more comedic ways. So there is a form of poetry and song that is incredibly popular in the late medieval and early modern period, which are called, like, alewives songs. And this is a period where things are getting really dodgy for women. Right. We see a real repealing of women's rights and ability to do varying things in the early modern period. Whereas it was slightly better to be a woman in the medieval period. The. And part of this is sort of because the circumstances has changed. Right after the Black Death, you see more women who are able to move into towns, for example, because, like, your landlord isn't going to be able to, like, chase you down anymore because he dead. And, you know, so you can just be like, all right, that's off. I'm going into the city. And what do women do? Well, women are brewers, women make ale because that's one of the things that they're expected to do at home. So you see rather a lot of successful women who are brewing a lot of beer. And you also see in uptick in the consumption of alcohol. Like, especially here in England, we're like, hey, like, we have invented the pub. Thank God. Finally we did it, folks, you know? Right? So there are also more women who have more money to be spending in the pub and they're hanging out with each other in the pub and they are talking and people are absolutely certain that the thing that they're talking about is your dick. And so there's this one that is called a 10 Ale Wives, right? And there's these 10 girlies. They get together and they're like, like, hey, girls, let's have a contest. We'll all compare our husband's dicks. And if, you know, you decide that someone has the really best dick, she's the winner and we're all gonna buy her a drink, right? So it starts off like, let's all talk about how great our husband's dick is to find out who's the dick winner. But it's immediately like, my husband's dick is trash. Absolutely. Like the worst dick you've ever seen in your life. Oh, my God. And it's like it goes through these women and like, some of them are like, oh, it's like a tiny little scene snail. Like, it doesn't do anything. One of them is like, if you. My husband's dick so small that if you tried to sell it at the market, you wouldn't get any money for it. Other women are like, my husband's dick is great, actually. It's so pretty. It's the prettiest penis that you ever did see, but he can't get it up. I'm jacking it 24 7. It's going nowhere. And like, you know, they're. And they get to this one point where one of them, like, holds up a pintle, which you use for spinning, and she's like, yeah, here's a pintle of fair length. Like, that's what I would want from a dick. And which is like, also, like, very rude because pintle is like the slang for penis at the time. And it's like as dirty as you can get. Right. So are women actually doing this?

[Kate Lister]

Yeah, when me and my friends get together, we talk of little else.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah, well, it's just sex in the city, you know, I mean, yeah.

[Kate Lister]

Like, sat down with my mates and gone, what's your husband's like? Yeah.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Ever?

[Kate Lister]

No, one time.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

No, that is not. And. And granted, ok, there. There was like, social conditions which are different. So, you know, at that point in time, everyone is constantly telling women from the cradle, you're sexual, you're sexual. The only thing you care about is sex. You were so horny. Oh, my God, you're mad horny. And it's possible that these women are like, damn, I guess I'm horny and all I care about is penises. So that's what I'm going to talk about. Right. Like, it's difficult to kind of untangle nature, nurture, but I would argue probably not.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

And they just don't care about your dick that much. Right. Like, so this is. It tells us more about what the anxieties of men are then it really tells us about the actions of any women. But there's also kind of like, of course, the kicker here, which is that that's also kind of threatening. Not just because it's like, oh, it's embarrassing that everyone knows my penis is like a snail, which I'm like a girl. I do not know what that means, but I love to hear it, frankly. Right. But, you know, the only reason that women can ask for a divorce in the medieval period and be granted one is if your husband's dick don't work.

[Kate Lister]

Non consummation of marriage.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

So sharing information about whether or not your husband can't get it up actually puts them in a precarious legal position because if they can't get it up, then you can in theory sue for divorce. Right. And it might be one of those things where, you know, women talking are sharing information, not just, oh, my husband's dick doesn't work. Then the other one might be like, oh, hey, girl, did you know you can get a divorce for that? Like, if you want, like, you can send him down to dick court and all the sex workers are going to jack him off. And then if it doesn't work, like, you're a free woman. Congratulations. Right. And so that is kind of like this worry because there's this power there in information still. I would argue that probably they are not talking about dicks that much.

[Kate Lister]

Yes. I just don't think that they're that interesting.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Look, girl, I recently rewatched all of Sex and the City and even if you watch all of that, they don't actually talk about dicks that much.

[Kate Lister]

Really. Not that much.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

They really don't.

[Kate Lister]

But here's the thing, though, and again, I need to actually check the sources on this because I might just be making this up or Professor Dunbar gave me a ring is women do seem to talk to one another more than men do. My evidence for this is the quote unquote, male loneliness epidemic. There has been research done that shows that, like, I can't remember the exact figure, but a startling number of men regard their wife or partner as their only friend. That they don't form close friendship groups, especially as they get older, whereas, as women do. And something that my mum said to me, because she's of an age now where unfortunately, you know, people are dying, and she said that when the husband dies, the wife, the widow, she's sad for a bit and then she goes on a cruise. If the wife dies, he will be married again within a year.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah. So I kind of think there is some evidence to suggest that women are more social with one another, they talk to one another more, and they certainly have a reputation as talking more. And gossip's got to be part of that. But where do you think that even comes from? Because I don't believe in nature that we're just born with gossipy brains. Oh, God, no.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah. And it's. It's, you know, a social thing. We're told that that's what women do. Women do it because we're told that's what women do. Right. And to a certain extent, we're also told very specifically that men don't. Right. That, like, friendship is not something that is celebrated in the same way among men as it is among women. And, like, to their detriment, obviously. You know, we were seeing more and more of this. Right. And, you know, there's this kind of masculinity thing where it's like, oh, talking about your feelings. Gay, you know. Right. Like, you know, to be clear. Well, this is a gay positive podcast. I'm just saying, you know, how. How basics behave, you know, so. But there is this very specific thing where it's like, oh, well, if you're talking about your feelings, that's feminized.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Right. And so doing that thing, doing the things that are necessary to keep relationships going are feminized within our society. So they are the sort of things that. That it kind of, like, hurts your masculine points if you keep it going.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

My partner, Justin Hancock, the sex and relationships educator, says, by the way, he's great.

[Kate Lister]

Lovely.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

He's great. We do love him.

[Kate Lister]

We do like him.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

He says the thing that we do with men in these cases to get them talking is he's like, take him to something where they can look at something else.

[Kate Lister]

Wow.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

So you can get men down the sport, and if they're, like, watching football and they're looking at that, if they don't look at each other, they can talk about what's going on with that he says, you know, a big thing you can do is sit on the same side at the pub. So, like, prop the bar, right, so that you're. You're looking out over the bar, and then you can have a conversation about your feelings. And so that kind of eliminates this, like, oh, like I'm being known as a person with emotions. And then you can kind of get into new spaces.

[Kate Lister]

This must be the product of a millennia of social conditioning. The women are the gossipy ones. And also that gossiping was punished in women. The scold, bridal. Tell me about that.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah, so, I mean, a thing that happens especially. And again, this is like the early modern period where everything gets really bad for women. Yeah. They will make, like, little metal masks and put them on women and parade them through town and be like, she's a skull, she's talking, she's doing these things. Another big thing, the ducking stool. The ducking stool. We usually associate it with accusations of witchcraft, but much more often we see, especially in the American colonies, that these are used on women who are perceived as talking too much. So women who are scolds, women who are gossips, women who are just using their mouths too much, you will see them waterboarded, essentially. You know, this is a form of torture that women are put through just for speaking.

[Kate Lister]

Yeah.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

You know, and there. There's no man who, if your man yells at his wife a lot, he's not going to be put in the ducking stool at all, is he? No. So there is a very gendered reaction to this as well. But, you know, all that serves to do is reinforce these hierarchies, reinforce these ideas about people. If the punishments are just something that is done to women, then there is also this innate, oh, well, I guess I do that. You know, I'm a woman. So it doesn't actually do anything to stop this. And actually, the thing that could stop these conceptions would be more people talking more often and sharing more information.

[Kate Lister]

I've also heard it referred to that gossip is a form of soft power, which is why it was associated with women a lot more. And this isn't medieval, but just go with, like, if you look at, like, the novels of Jane Austen, and I taught those to students, and even at university, the reaction was just like, fucking hell.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

This is like, they couldn't get over.

[Kate Lister]

The fact that, like, not a lot happens. It's just people talking to one another. And, like, I try and, like, put it in the context of the time as. Yeah, but for these type of women, that was all that they did, that was like. And then you can understand how gossip becomes much more of a premium. Because it's something to do. Yeah, it's something to do. Like if you are basically, if you're an upper to middle class woman, you're sort of confined to your house and there aren't many things then going to someone's house and talking about something, that's a big deal. Yeah.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Especially in the early modern period, Right. Where, you know, women have been essentially now forced out of public. You know, medieval women are in public all the time. They're working, they're doing all these things. Post enlightenment, it's like ladies live in the house and men go to work.

[Kate Lister]

We call this a kitchen.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, all you do, especially if you're incredibly wealthy, is hang out and hope someone comes around for tea. Right.

[Kate Lister]

And that it's really limited social world and men could at least move in public spheres and work and do and function that way, but women the most. Probably one of the most exciting things they had to do was go and talk to their mate.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah, absolutely. And what are you going to talk about? Your job? What job?

[Kate Lister]

Husband's dick.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah, exactly. I'm going to talk about your husband's dick right now. You know, so, yeah, it's. It's one of these things where you can't simultaneously force women into an entirely domestic sphere and then be like, now don't you talk to anyone? But like, girl, what am I supposed to discuss? Right. I'm not allowed to have a job, I'm not allowed to leave the house.

[Kate Lister]

Get involved in politics.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

You know, there's only so many novels a girl can read.

[Kate Lister]

You can't even travel that much. Travel's very difficult. Like, people do it, but it's really difficult.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

But yeah, we're not all Mary Shelley out here, Right. So it's like these are pretty extraordinary people who are able to do those things. And so we construct society in this way where the only thing that you have to do is gossip and then we get mad at you about it because we just don't like women very much.

[Kate Lister]

I can completely see how in that world, anything, any crumb of anything that's vaguely interesting. Yeah. That get you through the day.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

But, you know, fundamentally, if you leave men to their own devices. I've watched men gossip all throughout the medieval period. Every single piece of gossip I've received is because some dude wrote it down. I mean, like, think about Procopius is the secret history that he writes to be like Justinian and Theodora were digs. Theodora was jagging in all kinds of weird ways. She shagged a swan. You know, it's like, yeah, sure, yeah, I bet she shagged a swan, buddy. Right. Like every single history of anything is gossip. Like you know, every single thing that says that Eleanor of Aquitaine shagged her uncle. Gossip. Gossip. Right. And who's writing this? Men. Men are writing it. But when men do it, it's not gossip. It's like, oh, this is a very high minded thing about how Theodora shagged a swan.

[Kate Lister]

Was the medieval concept of gossip any different from ours?

[Eleanor Yarniger]

No, it's pretty much like if a man is doing it, well this is important information sharing. And if a woman is doing it, it's like it's gossip. Police, police time. Kick the doors down. Right.

[Kate Lister]

You know, so the ducking stool and the skull's bridal thing were early modern. Was there any punishments in the medieval period? I know in the early modern you have courts and you can sue people for calling them names, which is hilarious.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

You can sue people in the medieval period, like especially if you're brawling, if you're out in the street calling names, then you can get hauled before a court and then you're going to be put in the pillory or the stalks and everyone is going to be like, haha, you. Right. But also fundamentally, one of the things that's a little bit different about medieval people as opposed to early modern people. Early modern people like to do this. Like, oh, like we're, we're torturing. Torturing. You torture medieval people by shaming them. Yeah, you torture people by putting them in public and having everyone look at you. So like again, this is like a form of gossip. It's like she was talking trash about him and now she's in trouble and, or he, you know. And in particular there is a little bit more that we see that men are the ones who are like taken before court for damaging other people's reputation. Although women are definitely in the records doing this. Right. But it just kind of like depends on again, you know, by the time it's got to the courts, like oh well this isn't necessarily gossip. This is legal. This is, this is, this is legal, you know? Yeah, 100%. So like what is it that we see here? And you know, this grows over time. The main way women are going to get in trouble for gossiping in the medieval period is your priest will ask you. So you go to confession and he's like, girl, I heard from Janice, that you said that she was talking about Jane's husband's penis.

[Kate Lister]

Right.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

And then. So, like, and then you. And then he'll be like, don't do it again. You know, 10 Hail Marys or whatever. And, you know, we see this again increasingly over the period, more and more interventions where it's like, ask people if they're gossiping.

[Kate Lister]

So to sort of round things off, then. I love gossiping and you love gossiping, but you have to be careful with it because gossip is still very powerful stuff and if you get it wrong, that's. That's not good. You could still end up in court and you need to be very careful with it. Like, there's even cases of people like, you know, putting stuff on social media, which is gossip, and ending up in court. So what would be your tips for how to gossip?

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Well, well, firstly, I would love people that I don't know to keep putting things on social media so I can read it. All right? I want to see it. But no, don't do. Don't do, girl. Do not put it in writing.

[Kate Lister]

Don't. If you put gossip in writing, it's no longer gossip.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

You know what? All you got to do is meet anyone who is a researcher of any description. Ask a journalist, ask a historian, and do not write it down. It will come back to haunt you.

[Kate Lister]

Correct.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

It will come back to haunt you. You got to do this in an ideal world, face to face.

[Kate Lister]

Y.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

You know, like, you need to be sharing. Don't. Do not send a voice memo.

[Kate Lister]

No. About the gossip or an email train.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

This is. This is the only time it's acceptable to make a phone call, in my opinion.

[Kate Lister]

I think so.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

She's like, phone, I've got the tea. Yeah, Hello. You know, and everybody wants that phone call. Everybody, everybody wants this conversation about gossip.

[Kate Lister]

I know you should put things in a voice note, but my favorite thing is when I wake up and there's a 15 minute voice note for my sister and it starts with, can I just check if I'm being a here? And then it's like, oh, my God.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yes, here we go. Please check if you're being a here. Oh, my God.

[Kate Lister]

You shouldn't. Really. Because then there's evidence you say, don't.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Yeah. I mean, well, what you got to do is you got to put it on that, like, you know, automatic delete. Yeah, Auto deletes your friend. I suppose, like, Snapchat is the way to go if you're going to put it in writing, but don't put it in writing. Don't do that. No, don't do that. Not. That's like a far less actionable.

[Kate Lister]

Yes, I would say don't do that.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

But I mean, fundamentally, girl, I'm sorry if you don't have anything nice to say. Come sit next to me. Right? Like, that's what, that's what's up.

[Kate Lister]

But also, like, I think you need to know who your gossiping buddies are because there's like buddies that, that you will just spill everything, but you're actually relatively confident that they're not going to go.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

See, you're creating a social group. You're doing social grooming. You know, the people that you're gossiping with, you know, you know, you know, you know exactly who those people are. Are.

[Kate Lister]

Yes.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

And that's how you create a nice, close, cohesive group. And, you know, call me.

[Kate Lister]

Well, thank you very much for coming and gossiping with me once more. You've been fabulous. Wow.

[Eleanor Yarniger]

Well, thank you, girl. I'll tell everyone that you thought their husband's dick was trash.

[Kate Lister]

Please do. Thank you for listening. And thank you so much to Eleanor for joining me. You gossip trollop, you. I love you. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hello, maybe you had some gossip to share, then you can email [e-mail] Coming up, we have got an episode of Marie Antoinette in our Royal Sex series and the Sex Lives of the Roman Legion all coming your way. This podcast was edited by Tom Delagi and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. And they're all terrible gossips. Join me again Betwixt the Sheets, the History of Sex Scandal in Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.

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