Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society

Episode: The Truth About Mythical Women

Host: Dr. Kate Lister
Guest: Dr. Janina Ramirez, historian and author of "Legenda: The Real Women Behind the Myths that Shaped Europe"
Date: December 2, 2025

Overview

This episode features historian and author Dr. Janina Ramirez, whose latest book, "Legenda," explores the real women behind the myths used to shape national identities across Europe. Host Dr. Kate Lister and Dr. Ramirez dive into how tales of legendary women are formed, distorted, and manipulated—especially in service of nationalism and other political agendas. Through spirited discussion, they expose how stories like Lady Godiva’s and figures like Lola Montez have been twisted far from historical truth, shedding light on issues of gender, myth-making, and power from the Middle Ages through to the present day.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Genesis of "Legenda" and Myth-Making in History

• Dr. Ramirez shares the evolution of her work, tracing threads from her childhood through previous books ("Private Lives of Saints" and "Femina") to "Legenda."
  • “I was brought up Polish Irish Catholic…these people we call saints…they actually were complicated, difficult, problematic people.” (06:39, Ramirez)
• The new book grapples with how women become symbols of national identity, especially as actual nation-building often left them out.
  • “The woman is a nation, right?…But no women have been involved in those early years of nation building. None.” (12:40, Ramirez)

2. Nationalism and the Manipulation of Historical Myths

• The hosts discuss contemporary and historical uses of myth for nationalist purposes, from Viking iconography appropriations to the creation of heroic origin stories.
  • “History does play a really important part in nationalism and national identity politics…it's stories about history. And those stories become incredibly significant.” (09:38, Lister)
  • Ramirez cites instances of medieval law being invoked by extremists, underlining how myths are weaponized today. (10:18, Ramirez)
• Examination of how othering and exclusion underpin modern nationalism, using female allegorical figures (e.g., Britannia, Marianne, Statue of Liberty) as symbols while sidelining real women from creating nations.
  • “To be French is to not be English. To be Spanish is to not be Portuguese…But what struck me…The woman is a nation…But they're not at the table.” (12:40, Ramirez)

3. Separation of Spheres and Erosion of Women’s Rights

• Lister and Ramirez unpack the historical process by which women were gradually driven from public life, linking it to socioeconomic changes, the Reformation, and the rise of the middle classes.
  • “It’s not poor people drawing up these laws.” (17:56, Lister)
  • Beguinages (“the first female-only communes”) exemplify early autonomy, which was dramatically curtailed post-Reformation.
    • “In these communities…they are creating these first feminist communes…The Reformation closed all of them.” (17:59–19:50, Ramirez)
• The "cult of the domestic" is revealed as a middle-class ideal, inaccessible to most in practice.
  • “To have this cult of the domestic—that requires money…” (17:09–17:36, Lister)

4. The Lady Godiva Myth: Fact vs. Fiction

• Lady Godiva’s true story is scrutinized, revealing mythic elements invented centuries after her death.
  • Her name (“Godiva”) is anachronistic; her real name was Godgifu (“God’s gift”).
  • She actually owned Coventry herself and was historically powerful, generous, and clothed—her “naked ride” is a later fabrication.
    • “She owned Coventry. Her husband didn’t. She owned it in her own right…if anyone was begging anyone to reduce taxes, he’d beg her.” (28:50–29:41, Ramirez)
• The naked ride was first popularized by Matthew Paris in the 13th century, likely as tabloid gossip to undermine rival monastic communities.
  • “Matthew Paris…is the one…that secures this legend of the naked ride for the first time. Why does he do it? The monks of St. Albans hate…the monks of…Coventry…so what better way…to say that their patron…did this weird thing with riding around naked?” (30:00–32:20, Ramirez)
• The story’s popularity explodes in the Victorian period, becoming fused with sexualized medieval revivalism and nationalist imagery.
  • “[Victorians] are all about the sex…Osborn House, that is a sex palace. She is so leaning into…Godiva—as she wants Albert to see her as Godiva. She’s submissive, she’s all his.” (33:29, Ramirez)

5. Modern Mythic Women: Lola Montez and Beyond

• Lola Montez, an Irishwoman who reinvented herself as a Spanish dancer, exemplifies the complexity and chaos modern “mythic” women could bring.
  • Her fame (and infamy) arises in part because of her “Spider Dance” and her scandalous influence over the king of Bavaria.
    • “She walks around with a stick which she smacks people with if they annoy her…she incites riots everywhere she goes.” (40:48, Ramirez)
• The fate of modern women like Lola: little celebrated nationally due to their problematic, well-documented lives versus sanitized medieval counterparts.
  • “The modern women are so problematic…it’s actually very difficult for them to achieve national status.” (47:55, Ramirez)
• Comparison with heroines like Lascarina Bouboulina (admiral in the Greek War of Independence) and Augustina of Aragon—lauded in their nations, but still hedged by narratives framing bravery as stepping “outside her sex.”
  • “They always use this phrase. The woman stepped outside of her sex…they could be brave but only because…for that moment, they stepped outside their sex.” (45:49, Ramirez)

6. Reflections on History, Nationalism, and the Pendulum of Progress

• Dr. Ramirez muses on how quickly earned freedoms can be lost—and how history always looks backward for a “golden age.”
  • “Everything…democracy, freedom, inclusivity…they hang by a thread and they can twist instantly…it's the ping-ponging that goes on…shifting sands.” (51:56, Ramirez)
  • “When you study…even the medieval period, they’re still there, talking about this golden age of King Arthur.” (54:14, Lister)
• Importance of historians as critical voices in a time when truth is more contested than ever—despite predictions their field might be supplanted by AI.
  • “We have to listen to everything we’re being told…How are they using and abusing [history]?...the role of the historian is more important than ever.” (54:49–56:20, Ramirez)
  • “AI can go into the British Library archives then, and sit there attempting to translate 15th century French. Piss off.” (56:20–56:31, Lister/Ramirez)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On myths and nationhood:
  “It’s the fairytale element…the nursery room classroom version of a story…that the actual person disappears behind the story.” (10:18, Ramirez)
• On Lady Godiva’s real power:
  “She owned Coventry. Her husband didn’t. She owned it in her own right…if anyone was begging anyone to reduce taxes, he’d beg her.” (29:23, Ramirez)
• On the ‘trad wife’ phenomenon:
  “Yeah, I mean, the whole trad wife thing is just like, what the hell is that even going back to? I mean, what do you want? It’s like, that’s never existed.” (23:49, Ramirez)
• On Lola Montez’s chaos:
  “She walks around with a stick which she smacks people with if they annoy her…one riot in a day isn’t enough. You’ve got to incite a good couple. She’s amazing.” (40:48–41:56, Ramirez)
• On history’s constant longing for a mythical past:
  “…always evoking an idealized past…we are always, always imagining a romanticized past where everything was fine and it wasn’t complicated anymore.” (54:14, Lister)
• On historians’ relevance:
  “The role of the historian is more important than ever. I think we’re needed…apparently, we’re the second most likely profession to be replaced by AI. Did you see that?” (56:20, Ramirez)

Key Timestamps

• Introduction & Myth-Making: 05:13–12:40
• Nationalism & Exclusion of Women: 12:40–17:09
• Public/Private Spheres & Reformation: 17:09–20:28
• Lady Godiva Deconstructed: 24:28–34:42
• Medieval Revival & Victorian Myth: 33:59–36:42
• Lola Montez: Scandal and Legacy: 38:09–47:55
• Modern Heroines & Historical Memory: 47:55–54:14
• History, Myth, and the Present: 54:14–57:17

Tone and Style

Playful yet forthright, with wit and a healthy dose of skepticism about received wisdom and historical myth-making. The camaraderie and shared sense of fun between Lister and Ramirez make the subject matter engaging and accessible, even as they confront serious issues of women’s rights, power, and the dangers of manipulated history.

Summary Takeaway

This episode lifts the veil on some of Europe’s most persistent myths of “nation-founding” women, exposing how later generations refashioned powerful, complex women into simple symbols—often erasing their real agency and achievements. Through the stories of Lady Godiva, Lola Montez, and others, Lister and Ramirez demonstrate how history is a living—and contested—force, communities and politicians manipulating stories for their own ends, often at women’s expense. The conversation brims with wit, irony, and feminist fire, challenging listeners to view both the past and the present with a critical—and curious—eye.