← Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society
Loading summary
Transcript136 lines
- [00:00]
Kate Lister
This holiday season, reach for the one butter that never disappoints. Kerrygold. Made with milk from grass fed cows on Irish family farms, it's rich, creamy and perfect for baking. Whether browning butter for cookies or crafting the flakiest pie crust, Kerrygold's high butterfat content makes all the difference in flavor and texture. Holiday treats will taste extraordinary.
- [00:26]
Democracy Clothing Advertiser
Ladies, stop what you're doing. Democracy clothing's 40% off Cyber Monday sale is live and the jeans women call life changing are going fast. Our best selling AB solution fit technology smooths, lifts and fits you perfectly. They feel like leggings and you'll look like a million bucks. Sizes 0 to 24, petite and tall. Best jeans, best price free shipping. No code needed. Don't wait. Get the jeans women swear by for 40% off@DemocracyClothing.com.
- [00:59]
Kate Lister
This episode is sponsored by Paradise Fold, the silk hair wrap brand that does wonders for your locks. Elizabeth the First, Shirley Temple, Charles II and me. What's one thing we've all got in common? Curls. But if you know anything about having curly hair, it's that it can take a lot of time and product to get these curls exactly how you want them. Especially after a good night's sleep. Well betwixt us, Paradise Fold may have the answers to all of our hair problems. And not just for the curls, but for all hair types. They can even help you handle changes in hair texture from menopause and stress. Made in London, Paradise Fold hair wraps are beautifully made from 100% silk of the highest grade, are double layered and reversible. This keeps your hair healthier, more hydrated and less frizz with without the need for chemical based products all while you sleep soundly. They don't even fall off in bed. And on top of that, Paradise Fold is a carbon positive company and the hair wraps are sustainably made. So for a confidence boost and some of your much needed time back, grab a Paradise Fold this week. You get access to a free lifetime care and alteration service if you head to Paradise Fold this week and you'll get a free gift with your first order. Hello my lovely betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. Thanks for listening to Betwixt the sheets. I'm so glad that you have returned once more. But before we can proceed together, I think you know what's coming. Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right. It's the fair dues warning. And here it is. This is an adult podcast broken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way covering Arranged adult subjects. And you should be an adult too. I feel safer. Do you feel safer? The lawyers feel safer or thank for that? Let's get on with it. Foreigners. Thank you for joining me for a stroll through medieval Coventry. What a lovely day. There's absolutely nothing bizarre or unusual happening here at all. Hang on a minute. There is a naked chick on a horse. I didn't see that one coming. Did you see that one coming? It is Lady Godiva. Of course it is medieval Coventry. It's wall to wall naked women on horses. Well, that's if the story is to be believed, obviously. And there was only one. I don't know if the trend caught on or just. They're still doing it in Coventry. Maybe they are. Right, Focus, focus, focus. Why was Lady Godiva going through Coventry in the nip? Well, she was trying to make a point to her husband about relieving the townspeople of hefty taxes. Well, that's all right then. We will accept nudity in a socialist cause and I am totally here for it. But, but, but, but is there any truth to that story? Is any part of that true at all? Was there even a Lady Godiva? And more importantly, what do these kind of myths tell us about ourselves and about our sense of nationhood? These are important questions to ask and I know just the person who can. Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. We love myths, don't we? We love telling myths, we love hearing myths. We're all about myths, especially when it comes to national identity. When did all of this begin? Why are women so central to these stories and yet had all say in the shaping of our nations? Well, joining me today is the rather marvellous and not mythical Nina Ramirez, historian and author of the newly published Legenda, the Real Women behind the Myths that Shaped Europe. Are you ready to meet some fantastical, mythic women? Well, I am too. Let's do it. Hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. Finally, it's Janina Ramirez. How are you doing?
- [05:14]
Janina Ramirez
Oh, Kate, I'm brilliant and I'm so delighted to finally get on this podcast, which I absolutely love, by the way. And yeah, I mean, I don't think there's a more fitting podcast for me to be talking about this subject on, so thank you for having me on.
- [05:28]
Kate Lister
That's true. There isn't. There isn't. I can authoritatively say that's not true. But we are delighted to have you, Nina. We're joining, joining you mid book tour how's it going? How are you feeling?
- [05:40]
Janina Ramirez
It's exhausting, exhilarating, exciting. It's all the ease. It's so nice because I've been thinking about these ideas for such a long time, putting them together in this book. But writing's quite a lonely business. It's sort of you and your laptop and my cat, of course. But in the process of that, you know, you're trying out these thoughts. You're like, does this work? Am I doing it right? Am I tying the stories together or am I talking? And then you get out and you start talking to like auditoriums and you're not and I'm not. It's actually good. And I was like, brilliant. This is good. It wasn't nonsense. It wasn't a mad spaghetti word scramble.
- [06:19]
Kate Lister
It's not nonsense at all. Let's give it its full title. It is Legender. The Real Women Behind Myths that Shaped Europe. Where did this idea come from? Has this been bubbling around in the back of your head for a while or did you have like a lightning bolt moment on the road to Damascus type of inspiration?
- [06:38]
Janina Ramirez
Well, it's funny, isn't it? It's sort of a bit of both really, because the other two major history books I've written, the Private Lives of Saints and then Femina, they were building out of each other really. So I suppose if I take it right back to my childhood, please sit back and relax. I was brought up Polish Irish Catholic and the structure of that is so weird. So when I used to try and get to the bathroom in my Polish bubbies house, I had to pass like 50 saints and genuf and bless myself, just so they were a real like presence in my childhood. And so when I came to write my first book, what I'd realized by studying the medieval period was that these people we call saints, these sort of one dimensional symbols of sanctity, they actually were complicated, difficult, problematic people. So I start to unravel them in the first book. And then the ones that really jumped out at me were Hilda of Whitby and Bridget of Kildare, who are these extraordinary early medieval women who were doing things that women are only just starting to get the power and autonomy to do now. I mean, we've only just got a female Archbishop of Canterbury. And so I wanted to focus in on them in the second book. And then when I was writing Femina, I got to the end and again, I guess it's part of my Polish thing, but the last chapter, second to last chapter, was on King Jadwiga. Of Poland. So one of only two women kings in Europe, in history, and her tomb in Wawel Cathedral in Krakow. For 180 years, when Poland didn't exist on a map, when it was divided up between Austria and Prussia and Russia, that tomb became a sort of a rallying point for thinkers, philosophers, politicians who were imagining a Poland back into existence. So I was thinking, God, this medieval woman has been hijacked and attached to a nationalist cause. And then I thought, right, well, we're always being told, aren't we, as historians, get back in your box. Don't do modern politics. Don't do what's going on today. It's not, you know, do the past. But I do think it's our responsibility to look at what the big issues of the day are. So each of my books has sort of taken what I think is the biggest thing that's affecting us at the moment. So for Femina, it was about identity, sexuality, gender. For this one, it's about nationalism. It's about the divisiveness of nationalism and God. When I started writing it two years ago, I did not think we'd find ourselves in the world that we're living in. It was gonna get worse. I know. So it's so weird. You sort of feel a bit like Cassandra the prophetess, screaming, I know what's coming and nobody's listening. But I do think it's an important book because I wanted to get to the very heart of how history is used and misused by politicians, by world builders. I mean, even today we've got these phrases of kind, make America great again and golden age mentality that we're going back to something. Yeah, but what is that thing that they're trying to tie us back to? We need to probe at it.
- [09:39]
Kate Lister
History does play a really important part in nationalism and national identity politics. And it's strange the way it works because it's not necessarily actual history, it's stories about history. And those stories become incredibly significant. I mean, anyone studying Viking history and Viking culture at the moment is dealing with the fact that Norse iconography is often appropriated by far right groups. Why do you think that we do that? What is it like? It's very much cherry picking back throughout history, isn't it, to try and find things.
- [10:18]
Janina Ramirez
Absolutely. And that was the point behind this book, really. I see it all the time. As an early medievalist, We've seen terrorist attacks taking place where medieval law has been cited as one of the motivators. And that's something real. That's happening now. And there is this desire to kind of think, I suppose, in this modern age, that these people who are performing these acts, that they have the courage of something of a bygone age, that they're harnessing some deeper ancestor in the process of this. But it's so divisive. And when I started the book, I started thinking about all sorts of legendary figures. I was thinking about exactly like you say, you know, Viking warriors, but I was thinking about Alfred burning the cakes. I was thinking about Charlemagne. I was thinking about Robin Hood, even, you know, these legendary figures. And absolutely, King Arthur was there in draft one. It was these people that are based on historical truth but have had these stories. And I think it's exactly as you point out, Kate, It's. It's the fairytale element, isn't it? It's the sort of the nursery room classroom version of a story that becomes so tied up with a historical individual that the actual person disappears behind the story. And that was what I was trying to probe up. And it became really evident how perennial and how immediate this is. It's still happening today. I've been on this insane project for the last year where I've traveled to 25 countries in, like, nine months. And in the course of doing that, I was in India, I was in. And I was seeing how they're using their history, their past, their religious frameworks as well to support current political ends. This is not a finished, finite topic. This is still completely relevant.
- [12:08]
Kate Lister
When we're looking at something like nationalism, we seem to have lurched into quite an extreme point of view around immigration. That seems to be the hot topic at the moment. And you often see history being evoked, and the way it seems to be being evoked there is that there was this time, once upon a time when nobody left their countries and everyone lived in their countries, and there was no immigration at all, and then everything was better then. That's like a really strong example of history being usurped, but a myth of history to try and justify current political opinions.
- [12:40]
Janina Ramirez
And there's a wonderful Stuart Lee clip about, you know, coming over here and he goes sort of right back to the Beaker people and the Anglo Saxons with their miserable poetry. So it's an absolute underpinning of nationalism that there are others. It's all. All about othering. So, you know, what I found in the book? I mean, the book covers seven different European nations, but in almost every instance, when. And again, the thing that I think struck me as a medievalist was how recent and ongoing nation Building is, you know, we've had new nations appearing just in the last few years. We, you know, nations are redrawing their lines. But the actual flurry of what we would call a nation doesn't really start until the French Revolution. And then it is a big flurry. I know. So 1789 onwards, there's this flurry of activity where first France, then Spain, then Greece, then Belgium. They are drawing themselves onto maps, but in the process of drawing themselves onto maps, they are identifying what makes them different from their neighbors, the other. So it's so interesting. Like, to be French is to not be English. To be Spanish is to not be Portuguese. To be Belgian is to not be Dutch. And. And what's. What really struck me in the process, too, and I'm sure this is something that's come up in your podcast before. The woman is a nation, right? So we can identify with Britannia, we can think about Marianne, we can think about these, you know, Statue of Liberty. But no women have been involved in those early years of nation building. None. I searched and I wanted to see, you know, what about the architects, what about the historians, what about the linguists, what about the philosophers that are creating a concept of a nation? Where are the women? And they're not at the table. There's none.
- [14:28]
Kate Lister
That's an interesting thing to say. Like, what about queens and princesses and people like that? Could you explain what you mean a little bit about that, about that there weren't any women there for the process of nation building, for the process of.
- [14:41]
Janina Ramirez
The political act of drawing a nation? Absolutely. So you have figureheads. And actually, that's sort of the subtext of the book as well, the way that these female figureheads are sort of repackaged and made tolerable in the modern age, but in terms of the actual designers of countries. So a really good example is the Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen, which comes out immediately after the French Revolution. That text deals with men and the active citizens. What it takes no account for are passive citizens. And passive citizens are the very young, the very old, the disabled, the disenfranchised, and all women. So a few years later, this brilliant writer, Olympe de Gauges, she dares to pen a response, and she calls it the Declaration of the Rights of Women and the Passive citizen. And she's executed. And this is what happened.
- [15:34]
Kate Lister
Oh, wow. They didn't fuck around with that, did they?
- [15:35]
Janina Ramirez
Wow, okay. Head off. Head off straight away. How dare you? And, I mean, she wasn't even asking for the Same rights. She just wanted some rights. And that's what I mean by this idea that in terms of the structuring, the construction of national identities, women weren't included. And the women. It's so interesting, Kate, cause I could have given you 40 magnificent medieval women for every chapter. You know, I had to be selective. I had to cut them down. And these women of the 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th centuries, they are breaking every convention. And you do you have empresses, you know, the Byzantine empresses wielded ultimate global power. The Ottonian empresses wielded ultimate global power. We have papal diplomats like Catherine of Siena, we have these extraordinary, like you say, rulers figures who actively. And then you see this gradual erosion of women's involvement in the public sphere until we get to the point where I pick up the modern women, the sort of 1800s, where the separate spheres is very clearly delineated. The public sphere is for men, the private sphere is for women. So that's why it becomes so much harder to actually find active women that were actively involved in the nation building process.
- [16:55]
Kate Lister
I see.
- [16:55]
Janina Ramirez
It's worrying, we think, it's like we always think, don't we, that we're constantly stepping on the shoulders of giants that have gone before. We're improving, we're moving towards something better. But when it comes to the position of women within society, it's been the opposite. It's been an erosion of rights.
- [17:10]
Kate Lister
This is. Cause I was reading about this recently and sort of one of the theories about what happened here is that it's with the rise of, effectively the middle classes, it's with the rise of money, that we start to see this separation of the home and the public life. Because it wouldn't have been possible for most people in medieval Britain to have said, the wife stays at home and does nothing. That's just ridiculous.
- [17:33]
Janina Ramirez
I know. Everyone had to do something, everyone had.
- [17:36]
Kate Lister
To do something in order to have this like cult of the domestic that requires money to be able to support that. But even so, it's not something that poor people could buy into most of the time, is it?
- [17:49]
Janina Ramirez
No. Oh gosh, you're so right. And in every case, you know, it's an idealized version. I mean, but that's what nation building is. It's creating an idealized version of what.
- [17:57]
Kate Lister
And it's not poor people dropping, drawing up these laws.
- [18:00]
Janina Ramirez
It's not, it's not. And I've got, I mean, in terms of what you said about money and trade, I mean, that is absolutely central. It's a Combination of factors I think, because firstly you have the idea that 50 plus percent of the population, women, empowering them just creates 50% more antagonism and intervention for those few in power. So if you can deprive them of education, deprive them of emancipation, it actually allows the few powerful people to maintain a greater control over society. So there's that side of things. There's also the sense in which the opportunities for education are withdrawn from women quite rapidly. So if we think about the impact of the Reformation, before the Reformation there were convents, there were abbacies. I mean in the book I write about bergenages, you would love the beginages, Kate. Cause these are the first female only communes. They're not nuns, they're not convents. These are communities of women who are choosing to live together for protection, but also. Absolutely, also for economic benefit. So they all work, they all put money in the pot, they can, they can bring children, they can, you know, they don't have to live celibate lives. But in these communities, in these beautiful, I mean they're UNESCO world sites now these begginages, they are creating these first feminist communes, these first hubs and all of this opportunity for women to be educated and self sufficient, empowered. The Reformation closed all of them. Blanket closing on all monasteries, in all convents. The monks were sent off into churches, into the cathedrals, they became parish priests. All of the women, all of the nuns, the beguines, the lay women, they were just told to go home and that the woman's place is in the home. And instantly it's an opportunity to learn and to better themselves. Those places were closed. So that sort of triggers a start that you pick up on, which absolutely is the rise of the middle class, industrialization, urbanization. These things are terrible for the roles of women in many ways. So it is fascinating to kind of show the difference in agency that the earlier women had that the later ones don't seem to have.
- [20:28]
Kate Lister
I'll be back with Nina after this short break.
- [20:40]
Democracy Clothing Advertiser
Ladies, stop what you're doing. Democracy clothing's 40% off. Cyber Monday sale is live and the jeans women call life changing are going fast. Our best selling AB solution fit technology smooths, lifts and fits you perfectly. They feel like leggings and you'll look.
- [20:58]
Janina Ramirez
Like a million bucks.
- [20:59]
Democracy Clothing Advertiser
Sizes 0 to 24, petite and tall. Best jeans, best price, free shipping. No code needed. Don't wait. Get the jeans. Women swear by for 40% off@DemocracyClothing.com hey.
- [21:10]
Patrick Schwarzenegger
Guys, I'm Patrick Schwarzenegger, the founder of Mosh, which is a protein bar made specifically for your brain. Our bars are not only nutritious, but they are absolutely delicious and they are loaded with up to 13 grams of protein, only 3 grams of sugar, and amazing ingredients that support a healthy brain like lion's mane, Ashwagandha, vitamin B12, vitamin D3 and so much more. But the best part is every time you purchase one of our bars, we donate to Alzheimer's research. So if you want to find ways to give back to others and fuel your body and your brain, Mosh bars are the perfect choice for you. Head to moshlife.com pod20 to get 20% off plus free shipping on the Best Sellers trial pack or the new plant based trial pack. That's 20% off plus free shipping on either the Best Sellers trial pack or the plant based trial pack@moshlife.com pod 20.
- [22:05]
Babbel Advertiser
Par Le Tu francais hablas espanol Parley Italiano. If you've used Babbel, you would Babbel's conversation based technique teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world. With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55% off your Babbel subscription right now at Babbel Acast spelled B A b b e l.com Acast rules and restrictions may apply.
- [22:45]
Janina Ramirez
Netcredit is here to say yes to a personal loan or line of credit when other lenders say no, apply in minutes and get a decision as soon as the same day. If approved, applications are typically funded the next business day or sooner. Loans offered by NetCredit or lending partner banks and services by NetCredit application subject to review and approval. Learn more at netcredit.com partners. NetCredit credit to the People.
- [23:21]
Kate Lister
It's fascinating when you try and look at like what happened. That's another example of history that's picked up by certain men's right podcasters and the people that don't think women should have rights is they also hark back to this idyllic 1950s idyll where everything was perfect and brilliant and that's bollocks too. They also have this idea that it used to be really good and now we've wrecked it somehow and it's complete bollocks.
- [23:49]
Janina Ramirez
Yeah, I mean the whole trad wife thing is just like, what the hell is that even going back to, too. I mean, what do you want? It's like that's never existed.
- [23:58]
Kate Lister
That's. That's like. It's so performative and bizarre and it's just like. Do you have any idea how much money they're getting paid to pretend that they don't have any money and they're making, I don't know, cheese from scratch?
- [24:09]
Janina Ramirez
Yeah.
- [24:10]
Kate Lister
It's complete nonsense. But one of the things that you do is you're looking particularly like myths of certain women when it comes to nationhood. I think this is fascinating. Let's start with one example. Who. Who I love, and I think you're going to. It's all bollocks. Lady Godiva. Why?
- [24:28]
Janina Ramirez
I knew you'd break up on Lady Godiva. I knew it. When I was getting ready to come on the podcast, I was like, I cannot wait to talk about Lady Godiva with Kate. I just knew you'd absolutely love the bones of this.
- [24:40]
Kate Lister
Oh, so this girl who took her clothes off and rode round on a horse to try and, you know, for socialist ends. I'm all for that. I think that sounds great.
- [24:49]
Janina Ramirez
It's so good. It's so good. I was so looking forward to talking about this with you because. Absolutely. I mean, Lady Godiva as a myth is about civic pride. It's about this idea that there was a taboo and she decided to cross it and why shouldn't she take her clothes off and why shouldn't she ride a horse? But I'm sorry to say it is all bollocks. But we'll come to the root of why it's all bollocks.
- [25:12]
Kate Lister
I knew it would be, really.
- [25:14]
Janina Ramirez
There is not another figure that I have discovered in the course of writing this book who is as completely transformed by later historians as Lady Godiva. Not even her name has stayed the same. So the only thread of any historical truth in the Lady Godiva myth is Coventry. That's the only thing that the real women and the legend have in common is they were both connected to Coventry.
- [25:40]
Kate Lister
For anyone listening who might not be aware of the myth, can you just give us a quick Cliff Notes version of what that story was?
- [25:48]
Janina Ramirez
So, yeah, it's a famous English sort of folklorish legend that this wealthy princess, I suppose lady she, is married to the evil Leofric of Mercia. And he is taxing.
- [26:02]
Babbel Advertiser
Boo.
- [26:03]
Janina Ramirez
He is taxing. Actually, he's a really nice guy we'll come back to, but he is taxing. The living daylights out the people of Coventry. They can't afford to live they're all starving. And the dear, kind, loving Godiva, she throws herself on the mercy of her husband. She says, please relieve the taxes on these people. And he's very, very dismissively says, ha, ha. I'll do that when you get on a horse and ride naked from the market square to the priory. And she's like, okay, fine, I'll take up the challenge. She goes to the people, she says, look, I'm gonna do this. I'm doing it for you. But out of love for me, don't look. And everybody closes their eyes. And there's this awfully dramatic kind of moment where she's going. And one person looks Peeping Tom. He opens his eyes and he's immediately, depending on your source, either turned to stone, dies, or is struck blind.
- [26:54]
Kate Lister
See, I didn't think that bit was real.
- [26:57]
Janina Ramirez
Well, oh, my God. But actually, funnily enough, that bit has more reality than some of the other men. Because I know I'm gonna blow your brains. Right? So this procession has been performed year after year. And we've still got a Lady Godiva of commentary. She's called Pru Paratta, and she still does the procession. But every year they would perform the procession. And in the 1700s, the procession was taking place and actors from the different guilds get involved in it. And one guy from one guild was made Peeping Tom. He performed as Peeping Tom. And as the procession was happening, he actually died. So from that point onwards, no one wanted to play the role, so they ended up using a statue instead. Cause it was just thought to be cursed if you played the role of Peepee Tom.
- [27:43]
Kate Lister
Well, he died during the procession.
- [27:45]
Janina Ramirez
Died during the procession, yeah.
- [27:47]
Kate Lister
Do we know what. Of course.
- [27:48]
Janina Ramirez
It just struck down.
- [27:50]
Kate Lister
Just struck down. That's all the info we're getting.
- [27:52]
Janina Ramirez
That's all it was, struck down. So, yeah, I mean, that's kind of cool. But in terms of why. Okay. I mean, there's a what's the reality? And the why questions. The reality is that even her name is wrong. So lady, that's a title that didn't exist in the time when she was living, which is the beginning to the mid part of the 11th century. Godiva is a French version. Godiva, it's on the stress on the second syllable. Her real name was God Gifu. God's gift in Old English. So her name is wrong. She was married to Leo Frick of Mercia. That's kind of true. But they were this power couple at a time that I think is one of the most seismic in English history, because she was born around the turn of the first millennium, around the year 1000. And in her lifetime, she saw the reins of nine different rulers. She lived through four different regime changes and two conquests. Now we know about 1066, William the Conqueror and that conquest. She lived through the first one as well, King Knut. Cause we forget that we were part of this Danish super empire. And it's just because Cnut was a bit of a nicer guy than William. And she's the only woman listed in the Doomsday Book as having held onto her land after the Norman Conquest. She's badass and brilliant and generous and clever and a patron of the arts, apparently. And clothed. Clothed. And do you know what the absolute bullshit of this story is? She owned Coventry. Her husband didn't. She owned it in her own right. So if anyone was begging anyone to reduce taxes, he'd beg her.
- [29:41]
Kate Lister
Oh, so where does this story come from, then? Cause this just a lot of the times with these kind of legends, like, there's a kernel of truth in it somewhere. And you can kind of go, well, that bit was kind of right. This just sounds completely deranged.
- [29:55]
Janina Ramirez
This is deranged.
- [29:56]
Kate Lister
It's the fevered dreams of a lunatic. Where does this come from?
- [30:00]
Janina Ramirez
I love your take on it. Absolutely. I mean, it's so completely messed up, what happens to her story in the centuries after her death. And I had to do some serious kind of forensic detective work, kind of pacing back through the texts. And the thing is, we know this as historians, that texts are so incredibly unreliable. If anything survives in a text for any period of time, there's a reason books are burnt, books are destroyed, books are removed from collections, they're edited, people are written out stories, things are changed. That is just the nature of textual evidence. So going back through them, you can see kind of the thought processes, the editorial processes that take place in this, let's be honest, millennium, between when she was alive and now. And it was really interesting because the first couple of hundred years after she dies, she still really celebrated. Everyone thought. Everyone thought she was amazing. Even the incoming Normans, they were trying to destroy the reputations of pretty much all the Anglo Saxon rulers. But they loved God Gifu. They thought she. She was brilliant. And they carry on writing about how generous she was, how much of an intelligent patron she was. And then you get to the 13th century, and honestly, I can place it at the feet of one man, and he is the inimitable Matthew Paris. Now we have a journalist today known Called Matthew Paris. He is his namesake, living 700 years earlier in St. Albans. But I believe he's one of the first sort of tabloid journalists that we see in the historical records.
- [31:40]
Kate Lister
Oh, did you say about King John as well? Wasn't he that him?
- [31:43]
Janina Ramirez
Henry? Mostly, but yeah. So he was there through the whole Becket conspiracy. He was really, really close to the crown. And as a result he would sort of write his authorized version. And he included like pick up flaps where if you lifted up the manuscript, there was like his secret version up to neck.
- [31:59]
Kate Lister
Oh, I like that.
- [32:00]
Janina Ramirez
He was a caricaturist as well. Pop up gossip, pop up goss. And he was. Would pepper the margins with like these quite insulting images of the king of the royal household. He's a cheeky bugger, but he's a brilliant writer. Cause he uses adjectives. He doesn't just write chronicles. He's like, he wants to bring drama and kind of intrigue into his history. And he is the one coming out St. Albans that secures this legend of the naked ride for the first time. Why does he do it? Well, the monks of St. Albans hate the monks of St. Mary's Priory and Coventry. They're like rivals. So what better way to kind of cast a little bit of shade on the ones you don't like than to say that their sacred holy patron was actually this woman who did this weird thing with riding around naked. So it was invented to kind of cast a little. Yeah, to kind of cast some shadow. But it's a complete invention. And then it gets leaned into so much. Everybody loves it in the. I start the story with Queen Victoria gifting Albert a Godiva statue. And it's erotic, it's sexy, it's all about that conceal and reveal thing going on because her hair apparently covered it. But of course, you know, she's naked and it just becomes more and more popular. And by the 1850s, Tennyson's writing poetry about her. All the artists, all the pre raphs, they're all painting her.
- [33:26]
Kate Lister
Lost their shit about this one completely, didn't they?
- [33:29]
Janina Ramirez
They really did. They love a bit titillation as much as we think of them as these kind of buttoned up, like tight, tight people. They are all about the sex. You know, when you go to Osborn House, that is a sex palace. And she is so leaning into this image of her as she wants Albert to see her as Godiva. She's submissive, she's all his. She'll do whatever he says. And there's all this subtext going on in that chapter that I just loved unraveling. It was fun to write.
- [33:59]
Kate Lister
I bet it was. What did Godiva come to mean to the Victorians? I mean, it can't just have been like, oh, look, boob. Because like, the Victorians wouldn't be surprised. Well, no, I wouldn't be surprised, but like there's a medieval revival that happens in the 19th century. Godiva is part of that along with like King Arthur and sort of the Pre Raphaelites. Nofilia madness, this stuff. How does Godiva get co opted into a sense of nationalism? Because it can't just be that like, oh, we like being naked. So we're writing about this. The Brits love being in the nip as well. Like, how did they come to understand this myth? And how did Godiva become part of nationhood?
- [34:43]
Janina Ramirez
Yeah, well, it's exactly as you said right at the top, Kate, that she starts to represent this civic pride, this idea that the ruler, the leader, the kind of the queen, let's say in this case with Victoria, that she will do anything for her people, that they are the servant of the people and doubled up with the fact that it is a sexy kind of element with the way that she's naked. There is so much about that myth that they just love. They cannot get enough of the fact that it's medievalism. And this goes right to the top of this book, which is the past is better. Let's go back to a golden age. Let's go back to a time. There's also a weird little twist on this, which is that Victoria and Albert in particular, Albert. Have this slightly uncomfortable relationship with their own identity because they're coming. He in particular is coming from this German line. Yeah, German line. He's seen as a foreigner, actually, by most parliamentarians. He's seen as this sort of German interloper who's at the top of the tree. And tying themselves back to ancient English rulers is a sort of a way of showing that they've always been, They've always had divine right to rule, that you should always respect the monarchy. Because we could go back through all these different generations and see where Victoria and Albert emerge. But they love it. The first costume ball where they were still quite a young couple. They dressed up as Edward III and Philippa of Hainault. So going back to like this great time of the Hundred Years War, these medieval monarchs. And yes, it's a bit of playful dress up, but it's more than that. She's signaling. She's signaling so much through the use of these medieval women. And a lot of it's about humility.
- [36:27]
Kate Lister
Actually, and it's about evoking the Germanic nationalism of Albert. Because, you know, when you go far enough about the Anglos and the Saxons, they came over and there's all this kind of like, look, we're all German anyway thing.
- [36:40]
Janina Ramirez
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fine.
- [36:42]
Kate Lister
It's fine.
- [36:43]
Janina Ramirez
We're all connected. We're all the same. There's so much going on. But the medievalism that you mentioned, I mean, we can look at the Houses of Parliament, the fact that that was designed in a Gothic manner, we can look at the revivalism, the medieval revivalism. That means we still have churches and cathedrals surviving because the Victorians went in and renovated them. So there's this sort of curatorial misappropriation of the medieval. It's not accurate. It's not an accurate rendering of the medieval period, but it is this sort of, like, fascination with it and an idea that it was better. And I think the other thing, Kate, is we have to remember that they are dealing with the rapid onset of industrialization. So when you've got steam trains and progress and factories and smog and cities, that sort of idealism of a perfect agricultural, rural, simpler life has got a lot of appeal and it's got a romance to it. So she's tied up in all of that. But it's interesting, isn't it, because you take this one figure, this one individual who's a real historical figure, and this whole spider's web of connections and changes come out of her. She herself is worthy of being known about the actual God. Gifu is a blooming, excellent human. Really interesting, fascinating historical human being. It's great. It's a complete jigsaw puzzle.
- [38:09]
Kate Lister
What I like about the book is that you haven't just. Although, like, you know, you're a medievalist by trade, like, you haven't just stuck to the medieval here, you've covered a really impressive range of women, times and cultures. And one of my favorites is Lola. Lola, Lola Montez.
- [38:25]
Janina Ramirez
Lola.
- [38:26]
Kate Lister
I've got such a soft spot for the sluts. I always do.
- [38:29]
Janina Ramirez
And Lola. Oh, my God, ultimate super sluts. I love her so much. Oh, I'm so glad you picked up on Lola. I could not, not include Lola. She was just such a badass.
- [38:40]
Kate Lister
Give us a quick overview of who Lola is.
- [38:44]
Janina Ramirez
Oh, Lola. So Lola Von Tez, she's actually an Irish sort of semi noble.
- [38:49]
Kate Lister
Not Spanish, but not. No.
- [38:52]
Janina Ramirez
She reinvents herself as a Spanish dancer. And the way she makes her name is through her spider dance. I know you know this. She would go on stage. I mean, she wasn't well trained. She didn't. She was doing a sort of performative version of Spanish dance of which she knew nothing. But in it she pretends a spider has crept up underneath her petticoats and that she's having to kind of brush it off. And of course it's a bit like the Godiva thing. It's reveal and conceal, isn't it? It's like sexy because you can see a bit of ankle, then you can see a bit of calf. But she ends up on a sort of global stage. She goes to Australia, she's on Broadway and you know, she travels so far and wide. But she appears in my story because she happens to end up catching the eye of the king of Bavaria in.
- [39:39]
Kate Lister
This is in the 19th century, by the way, isn't it?
- [39:41]
Janina Ramirez
Yeah, 1848. So it's. So there's like bubbles of revolutionary activity that happen throughout the book. And I try and pick a modern woman that's there at that moment. So for Germany, the big moment of nation building starts. Starts with 1848 and these riots. Leila says she's a liberal. She hates the Jesuits, who are kind of in control of the education systems and a lot of the political systems. She wants payment for teachers, she wants sort of rights for women and for the disenfranchised. But she gets the ear of this elderly king who absolutely dotes on her. He's actually. He sees her for the first time when he's gone to. She does like the warmup act for a play that's called the Enchanted Prince. I mean, you couldn't write it. And then he becomes completely enchanted and infatuated with her. She starts having a huge influence on him and everybody around him is starting to panic that this radical woman is whispering in his ear.
- [40:37]
Kate Lister
Radical woman and an Irish dancer as well. Like no reason at all to be.
- [40:44]
Janina Ramirez
Talking to in the heart of politics, really.
- [40:47]
Kate Lister
It's so wild.
- [40:48]
Janina Ramirez
It's so wild. And the thing is, she does herself absolutely no favors because she walks around with a stick which she smacks people with if they annoy her. She gets her own little band of bodyguards. She kind of gets her favorites, her red cap boys that sort of surround her and look after and she incites riots everywhere she goes. So she's just walking down the street, there's a riot taking place right behind her. You know, she's just. She's a one woman nightmare.
- [41:14]
Kate Lister
Not like Riots as in like yay, Lola.
- [41:16]
Janina Ramirez
Like riots like kill Lola.
- [41:19]
Kate Lister
Kill Lola.
- [41:20]
Janina Ramirez
Kill Lola.
- [41:21]
Kate Lister
Kill Lola.
- [41:22]
Janina Ramirez
Riots. Somebody kill Lola. But she does again. She doesn't step back, she wades in. So I start the chapter with her. She's already had one riot taking place on one side of town and she's so annoyed that she goes back to her house and gets a gun and then goes out and starts another riot. She's so troublesome.
- [41:38]
Kate Lister
I would go home. I would have been off long before that. Quite.
- [41:43]
Janina Ramirez
I wouldn't have gone in the first place. I wouldn't have gone.
- [41:48]
Kate Lister
You would have just kept quiet. Gone. This is weird. I've sugar babied too hard and now somehow I'm living in the royal palace with the king. I'll just keep stum.
- [41:57]
Janina Ramirez
I'll just, I won't piss anyone else off. I'll just try and keep her mouth shut a bit. Not Lola. One riot in a day isn't enough. You've got to insight a good couple. So she's amazing and she's. And he loves her so much, he elevates her to the position of a countess. He declares her a countess. So she kind of reaches these mad heights. And I can't express to you how kind of unusual this is really in terms of how a lot of these modern women are manifesting in the book.
- [42:31]
Kate Lister
I'll be back with Nina after this short break.
- [42:42]
Democracy Clothing Advertiser
Ladies, stop what you're doing. Democracy clothing's 40% off Cyber Monday sale is live life. And the jeans women call life changing are going fast. Our best selling AB solution fit technology smooths, lifts and fits you perfectly. They feel like leggings and you'll look.
- [43:00]
Janina Ramirez
Like a million bucks.
- [43:01]
Democracy Clothing Advertiser
Sizes 0 to 24, petite and tall. Best jeans, best price. Free shipping. No code needed. Don't wait. Get the jeans women swear by for 40% off@DemocracyClothing.com hey guys, I'm Patrick Schwarzenegger.
- [43:14]
Patrick Schwarzenegger
The founder of Mosh, which is a protein bar made specifically for your brain. Our bars are not only nutritious, but they are absolutely delicious and they are loaded with up to 13 grams of protein, only 3 grams of sugar, and amazing ingredients that support a healthy brain like lion's mane, Ashwagandha, vitamin B12, vitamin D3 and so much more. But the best part is every time you purchase one of our bars, we donate to Alzheimer's research. So if you want to find ways to give back to others and fuel your body and your brain, Mosh bars are the perfect choice for you. Head to moshlife.com pod20 to get 20% off plus free shipping on the bestsellers trial pack or the new plant based trial pack. That's 20% off plus free shipping on either the best sellers trial pack or the plant based trial pack@moshlife.com pod 20.
- [44:20]
Janina Ramirez
Every one of the modern women I feature at a seminal moment when they're sort of wading into extraordinary times. So they're wading into revolution, they're wading into war. Lascarina Bouboulina. Isn't that the best name? Laskarina Bublina. She's the first ever female admiral of the navy. And she leads the assault that kind of wins the war of independence for Greece. She's incredible. And I mean, again, oh, God, she's so cool. She has a scimitar that was given to her by the Tsar of Russia, which has a poison release trigger. So you stab her.
- [44:54]
Kate Lister
What in the James Bond madness is this?
- [44:56]
Janina Ramirez
I know. And then you release the poison and you get a double bubble opportunity to destroy your enemy. She's got an armory. I mean, this woman has like a mad armory. Augustina of Aragon, she. When the Napoleonic troops are assaulting Zaragoza, the men are up on the barricade, but all the soldiers have either run away or died. So she climbs on top of their bodies and lights the cannon. And in the process of lighting the cannon, she ends that assault. So these women are being like, super, super brave. But I tell you what annoyed me. In every article about them, every report, every, you know, every newspaper, they always use this phrase. The woman stepped outside of her sex so they could be brave, but only because for that moment, they stepped outside of their sex.
- [45:50]
Kate Lister
What happened to Lola? People will want to know.
- [45:52]
Janina Ramirez
She just goes off and has an amazing life.
- [45:55]
Kate Lister
But it led to the king being chucked out, didn't it? And at which point she went, oh, well, never mind.
- [46:01]
Janina Ramirez
Then off to America.
- [46:03]
Kate Lister
I'll try my luck as a beauty influencer, which is basically what, well, she did.
- [46:08]
Janina Ramirez
So true. She writes that text on beauty. Oh, my God. I never thought of Lola as a beauty influencer. You've just given her. I do talk about Catherine and Sienna being like Katie Price.
- [46:19]
Kate Lister
Nice.
- [46:21]
Janina Ramirez
But, yeah, it's so interesting. Yeah. So she, yeah, she runs away. He kind of gets her out to safety, but he stays and everything goes to pot and he's overthrown. And Munich is in disarray. So she leaves this sort of trail of destruction behind her. Then she marries again. That doesn't work out. She marries another. That doesn't Work out. And she keeps trying her luck in different places. She goes to Australia and she does the spider dance there. And they can't stand it. They think she's a shit down, immoral. And maybe a shit dance, it's a bit of a shit down, but they kick her out. They're not interested in Australia. She does pretty well on Broadway. She makes enough money. And then like you say, later in her life, she settles into this position of being kind of a public speaker. And she goes around, she gives these sorts of lectures on beauty. Lectures, actually. She gives lectures that are really insightful on things she's seen in her remarkable life. So she writes about remarkable women that she's encountered when she's traveled. But she also loves to write about historical women. So she writes about Cleopatra, she writes about these sort of legendary women, a bit like I do. But she has a good life. I mean, she really lived. And I think that the fact that in her younger years she was just unstoppable. She was this force of nature. That means that when she is retiring, when she is slowing down a bit, people still want to hear what she has to say. She'll pack out a lecture theater, you know, because people are interested in her.
- [47:43]
Kate Lister
Does she still have a mythology in, say, Bavaria, but Germany now, the way that Godiva does over here? Like, I'm trying to think, how has her history been appropriated or reappropriated for a sense of nationhood?
- [47:56]
Janina Ramirez
That's such a good question. And it's a question that I struggled with throughout writing the book. Because what the legendary medieval women have is this sort of. Of iconic status, their sort of tidied up, repackaged. It takes us right back to the beginning with our saints. You know, Catherine has a wheel, Lawrence has a gridiron. They become instantly recognizable. They become kind of an icon of legacy. Whereas the modern women are so problematic that it's actually very difficult for them to achieve national status. I think the only one that's done it well is Augustina. So in Spain, she is still recognized as a heroine. She's buried in a chapel called the Chapel of the Heroines. There's statues to her where she seems really heroic with her medals. She's the only one. The others, all the other modern women I write about have been dismissed as whores, harlots, difficult women, problematic those who step outside their sex. Some are getting the recognition they deserve, but others are still really struggling to have their legends overturned. So I'm trying to do that with the book too. I'm sort of say, why are the modern women the problem? Why are they the ones that society are struggling with?
- [49:10]
Kate Lister
I think it might be because we've got enough history about them to like, you can't if. When something's that far back in the past, it enters this kind of like misty world of vague medieval type of myth that we all think that we know, but we don't. It's sort of just a Disney Middle Ages that's not that easy. From like 1850 onward, it's like, how do you understand that? How do you repackage that? And the easiest way to do that, I suppose in the case of someone like Lola, is just to go, oh, you big slag, you wrecked everything.
- [49:44]
Janina Ramirez
You are right. I mean, I always say being a medievalist is a bit like doing like a thousand piece jigsaw puzzle with eight bits and you kind of drag bits out from other areas. You're like, oh, I'll have a bit of archaeology, use a bit of art history, need a bit of landscape archaeology. Whereas with the modern. Well, this is. I found. And it's so wonderful to actually have source material at my fingertips with every one of the modern women I was writing about.
- [50:05]
Kate Lister
But you're not in a whale of a time. Oh, my God, there are photographs.
- [50:09]
Janina Ramirez
I can see that. Look, portraits. What the hell? This is amazing, kid. In a sweet shot. But in that process, you're absolutely right, because what happens, the complexity of that historical figure comes to the fore. You can see they're not just one thing. I mean, they could be dismissed as just a whore or just a slut or just a word. But their actual evidence for them shows that these are living people with very complicated lives that are sort of unfurling over time and space. I mean, Lola lives a long life. She travels all over the place. She's a different lola in 48 to the lola that she is later. So having that evidence to sort of go, right, well, she's not just a heroine, she's not just an icon. I think that actually means that you see them in their true complexity and individuality. I find it really exciting. I love it. It's like this is a real person, like a real living, breathing person. And I try and do that with my medieval women as well.
- [51:04]
Kate Lister
So to kind of round this off. Although I could just sit here and talk to you for forever, but my producer won't let me do it. But we are, as you said earlier, in quite mad times now. And I often wonder what on earth historians of the future are gonna make of this particular time period in weird ways. It also answers a lot of questions that people have about history. Like, you know, people always wondered about Germany in the 19 for how did that go bad so quickly? Oh well, you know, now we're kind of having, we're kind of learning about how that kind of stuff can happen. But when you're looking throughout history at women and this sense of nationhood and nationality, who do you see as like the main players today? Do you see them fulfilling any roles that historians, if we're still here hundreds of years from now, be looking back and picking out stories and going, this person, their story was really important.
- [51:56]
Janina Ramirez
It's really interesting, isn't it? Because I could cite you politicians, I could cite you the big players on the world stage. I think two things. I think firstly everything, what history does teach us is that everything we think we have now can be taken away very quickly. Everything we think we've earned, democracy, freedom for women's rights, rights, inclusivity. They hang by a thread and they can twist instantly. And this the whole way through this book. It's the ping ponging that goes on between, you know, the ideals of these people, how they're shifting sands, constant shifting sands. So I think that we'll be seen as part of this continuum of shifting sands. I think Pandora's box is open. I think that with the Internet, with your global communications, it's gonna be very, very hard to push all those rights back in the box and say no, you can't have them. But my God, are people trying. There is a huge backlash that we're living through at the moment. I sort of think of it as like when a dog is injured and it sort of crawls into a corner. Cause it knows it's dying but it still wants to bite your legs off. That's how it feels for me at the moment in terms of the retaliation of traditional ideas of sort of these things that, that I hoped maybe we won't have left behind. They are still there and they are fighting fit. And we have to listen to everything we're being told. We have to listen to our politicians rhetoric when they cite the past. How are they using history? How are they using and abusing it? So I think historians of the future, I mean obviously we lived through one of the most seismic events humanity's ever experienced with the digital revolution. But I think that it's an inevitable that in the face of such rapid change, you would get such a desire for traditionalism and a return. Yeah, so it's a pendulum swing Isn't it? It's a constant pendulum swing. So it's almost natural that people want to cling to an idea of a nation of an older identity, but we have to question it. We have to pray about it. We have to look at it. What is the nation you're willing to live and die for? Where has it come from? What are its roots? Why are you being led by.
- [54:14]
Kate Lister
One of the most interesting things I find is when you study, doesn't matter how far back you go in history, to, like, the earliest scratchings on a cave wall somewhere, they are always evoking an idealized past. You never get to the bit that, like, it's, oh, it's perfect. We had it fixed in. Even the medieval period, they're still there, talking about this golden age of King Arthur. And then you go back a bit further, and again, it's like they're harking back. We are always, always imagining a. A romanticized past where everything was fine and it wasn't complicated anymore.
- [54:50]
Janina Ramirez
Absolutely. You are so right. And again, every woman in this book that I write about medieval and modern, we forget that nobody can see into the future. When we, as modern historians go, oh, Joan of Arc anticipated feminism and, oh, look at that, that they were doing there, that's obviously the foundation blocks for industrialization. They can't see forward. They have absolutely no idea what's coming after them. All that we ever can do is make sense of where we are from, where we've come from, because we can't see into the future. So this idea of being careful with history, being really precise, it's difficult because now everything is being questioned. What is a truth? What is a fact? You know, these things are tentative even through AI and through developments at the moment. But to really connect with the historical figures, you have to see them as coming out of their past, where they came from, how they got there. And I try and do that really carefully with all of the figures. And it's fascinating, you know, how Isabella of Castile crafted her legacy from the past. She was all about dynasty, going backwards, looking for the past for inspiration. Joan of Arc, she didn't appear in a bubble, in a vacuum. She was going on ancient myths and prophecies and legends, leaning in to the past. And, you know, that's something we have to be really careful about. And that's why I think the role of the historian is more important than ever. I think we're needed. Let's hope that we're needed. Apparently, we're the second most likely profession to Be replaced by AI. Did you see that?
- [56:20]
Kate Lister
Oh, fuck off. Yes, I did see that. I just. Well, AI can go into the British Library archives then, and sit there attempting to translate 15th century French.
- [56:30]
Janina Ramirez
Piss off.
- [56:31]
Kate Lister
Oh, it gets on my way.
- [56:33]
Janina Ramirez
Yeah, it's mental.
- [56:35]
Kate Lister
Is that.
- [56:36]
Janina Ramirez
I mean, I think we've got to be brave, all of us. Go forward. It's like uncertain times. Like, really uncertain times. But then it's always felt like that, you know, I keep reminding everyone that's panicking, oh, my God, the world's in ruins. I'm like, go back 50 years, go back 100 years. There's never been a time where there isn't issues that we have to address together. But I think it's that togetherness, community. And what nationalism at its worst does, is it others? It divides. It separates those who are from those who are not. And I don't think that is the answer. Going forward into uncertain times. You've got to pull together. Community matters and, you know, friendships matter and. Yeah, look after each other, I guess.
- [57:18]
Kate Lister
Nina, you have been amazing to talk to. Thank you so much. And if people know more about you and your work, and frankly, they should. Where can they find you?
- [57:26]
Janina Ramirez
Oh, my goodness. Well, I am on various social medias. I am actually now Professor Yanina Ramirez, but my handle is. Congratulations.
- [57:34]
Kate Lister
Thank you.
- [57:35]
Janina Ramirez
Thank you. But I'm Dr. Yelenina Ramirez on the Socials. You can find my old documentaries on iPlayer and on YouTube and. And I'm. My books are all out there ready to buy Legenda, by the way. I don't know if you're gonna be able to include an image of it. The COVID is one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen. And for the purposes of my book, my publishers developed a new form of gilded ink, which has no need for a laminate cover. So it is officially the sparkliest book ever made. Oh, sparkles. Incredible. I know. I'm so grat. I'm such a magpie. My covers have to be, like, super sparkly or I'm not in.
- [58:15]
Kate Lister
I'm gonna go and phone my editor right now. I want a sparkly book.
- [58:18]
Janina Ramirez
You want sparkly covers? Come on, more gold, more gilding. Come on.
- [58:23]
Kate Lister
You have been amazing. Thank you so much for dropping by.
- [58:27]
Janina Ramirez
I absolutely loved it. I was so looking forward to the this, and it's exceeded all my expectations. So love to you, love to the whole gang of listeners, and hopefully I'll see you very soon.
- [58:40]
Kate Lister
Thank you for listening. And thank you so much to Nina for joining me. And if you like what you heard. Don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is you get your podcasts Coming up we have got an episode taking us back to sex and scandal in ancient Egypt of all places. How utterly shocking. And another one on Margaret Beaufort, the woman who kick started the Tudor period. If you wanted to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us@betwixtoryhit.com this podcast was edited by Tim Arstall and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Freddie Chick. Join me again Betwixt the Sheets the History of Sex Scandal in Society A podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.
- [59:27]
Democracy Clothing Advertiser
Ladies, stop what you're doing. Democracy clothing's 40% off Cyber Monday sale is live and the jeans women call life changing are going fast. Our best selling AB solution Fit technology smooths, lifts and fits you perfectly. They feel like leggings and you'll look like a million bucks. Sizes 0 to 24, petite and tall. Best jeans, best price. Free shipping. No code needed. Don't wait. Get the jeans women swear by for 40% off at democracyclothing.com par le tu.
- [59:58]
Babbel Advertiser
Francais hablas espanol Parliament if you've used Babbel, you would Babbel's conversation based technique teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world. With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55% off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com acast spelled B-A B B E L.com acast rules and restrictions may apply.