Podcast Summary: Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society
Episode: The Truth About Sigmund Freud
Air Date: December 16, 2025
Host: Dr. Kate Lister
Guest: Dr. Carolyn Law Bender (University of Essex)

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the complex personal life and profound intellectual legacy of Sigmund Freud, the widely recognized "Father of Psychoanalysis." Host Dr. Kate Lister and historian Dr. Carolyn Law Bender explore Freud’s theories on sex, gender, sexuality, and the subconscious—with a clear-eyed view of his cultural impact and the controversies he sparked. The conversation weaves between Freud’s familial background, intellectual environment, radical views on sexuality, fraught relationships, and his now-criticized ideas about women.

Key Topics & Discussion Points

Freud’s Place in Psychology & Psychoanalysis

[04:00 - 05:20]

• Freud is often named the "father of psychology" but is more accurately the father of psychoanalysis.
• There’s an important distinction between mainstream psychology and psychoanalysis, especially today.
• Carolyn: "Psychoanalysis for Freud was defined by two key characteristics. One was a belief in the unconscious, and then the other was the idea of free association as a clinical technique." [04:50]

Origins of the Unconscious

[05:30 - 06:35]

• Freud did not invent the idea of the unconscious, but he systematized it in a unique way, insisting on "unconscious" rather than "subconscious."
• The unconscious, for Freud, is a process, not just a hidden space.

Freud’s Early Life & Family

[07:41 - 09:39]

• Born in 1856 in Vienna to a complicated family—his mother was his father’s third wife, closer in age to some siblings than to Freud's father.
• Freud was a highly valued child; he had his own room while six siblings shared, and the family removed a piano because it disturbed his studies.
• Fluent in eight languages, initially wanted to pursue law, but turned to medical research on fish and eels before psychology.

The Context of Sexology

[09:39 - 10:09]; [10:09 - 16:37]

• Freud emerged at a time of radical shifts in the understanding of sexuality—when "perversions" were still criminalized.
• The term "homosexuality" was a new, contested development; the idea of "inversion" was preferred.
• Freud opposed pathologizing or criminalizing homosexuality, calling it "no disease, no sin, no vice, and it was nothing to be ashamed of."
• Carolyn: "If we think about the unconscious and its links to sexuality... we have all made a homosexual object choice in our unconscious. Meaning that, I mean, to use the parlance of today, everybody’s a little bit gay." [16:37]

Freud’s Personal Life & Sexuality

[17:27 - 23:01]

• Lived a remarkably conventional personal life: married Martha Bernays, had six children, and after their last child was born, was "more or less celibate" for over forty years.
• Notable gossip swirls around his close relationship with his sister-in-law Minna Bernays, who lived with the family and often accompanied Freud on unchaperoned holidays.
• The infamous rumor of a hotel register where Freud signed in with Minna as "Mr. and Mrs. Freud"—though its veracity and significance are debated.

Martha Freud: The Invisible Support

[24:28 - 26:56]

• Martha, Freud’s wife, managed the household and supported his intensive workload, making Freud’s career possible.
• Carolyn: "It's Martha's invisible labor... Her unseen, unrecognized, constant, and by all accounts, very fastidious, prompt... She’s the invisible force behind Freud’s intellectual thought powerhouses." [24:50]

Freud’s Path to Clinical Practice & Confidence

[26:56 - 29:15]

• Freud switched from neuroanatomy to psychoanalysis, departing from strictly biological notions of hysteria to purely mental (psychological) explanations.
• Developed the foundational "talking cure," credited to his patient Anna O (Bertha Pappenheim).

Freud’s Tumultuous Relationships with Colleagues

[31:29 - 35:19]

• Frequently fell out with close collaborators (e.g., Josef Breuer, Wilhelm Fliess, Alfred Adler, Carl Jung).
• Carolyn: "In his autobiography, Freud once wrote he always found the great need for a friend and an enemy. And what was true... was that the distance between a friend and an enemy sometimes was just a matter of time." [31:44]
• His relationships with male colleagues were often deeply emotional and occasionally "romantic" in tone (as evidenced in letters).

Freud & Theories of Female Sexuality: Penis Envy & Its Discontents

[35:19 - 51:35]

• The hosts dissect Freud’s Oedipus complex, and his problematic transition into ideas about women, penis envy, and female sexuality.
• The Oedipus story is explained—ending with Freud’s claim that the boy gives up on "mommy" out of fear, having seen evidence of castration (lack of a penis in females).
• Kate: "We're with him up to like, oh, it's very clever... And then penis envy. Freud. Pardon? What was that?" [35:46]
• Freud’s theory rendered the vagina as absence/lack rather than its own organ of pleasure or power; penis envy thus represents desire for access to social power, not (only) anatomy.

Clitoral vs. Vaginal Orgasms

[51:35 - 53:19]

• Freud argued clitoral orgasms were "psychologically immature" and only vaginal orgasms reflected adult sexuality—a view Dr. Lister calls deeply damaging and misleading.
• Kate: "If I had him in a room, I'd hit him with a chair... his ideas about how clitoral orgasms were psychologically immature... set in motion a whole load of wank that we're still unpicking to this very day." [51:58]

The Many Freuds: Reform or Rejection?

[53:26 - 54:26]

• Freud’s immense output means different "Freuds" can be drawn upon: queer liberator, sexist, defender of racial difference.
• Not all his ideas need retaining—some are more useful than others.

Notable Quotes

• Carolyn Law Bender:

  • "He actually insisted throughout his career that homosexuality was no disease, no sin, no vice, and it was nothing to be ashamed of." [Approx 15:00]
  • "I don't think that there's a way you can be, like, a feminist and a queer theorist and not have a really ambivalent relationship with Freud." [06:55]

• Kate Lister:

  • "That’s a lot of pressure on Martha..." (on Freud’s using his personal life as the basis for groundbreaking, and sometimes rigid, sexuality theories) [24:28]
  • "We're with him up to ... And then penis envy. Freud. Pardon? What was that?" [35:46]

Memorable Moments & Timestamps

• Freud’s formative family privilege (the vanished piano): [07:41 - 09:39]
• The radical shift in views on sexuality ("Everybody’s a little bit gay"): [16:37]
• Speculation about the Freud-Minma relationship and the hotel registry story: [22:50 - 23:01]
• Discussion of household structure and Martha’s invisible labor: [24:50]
• Oedipus Complex explained in detail ("the story goes a little something like this..."): [37:22 - 43:02]
• Host’s visceral rejection of Freud’s orgasm theory: [51:35 - 52:15]

Conclusion & Further Resources

Dr. Carolyn Law Bender reveals both Freud’s intellectual brilliance and his blind spots—especially regarding women and sexuality. The episode closes with Carolyn mentioning a forthcoming book (an accessible introduction to Freud’s theories) and her wider work on post-Freudian psychoanalysis.

Find Carolyn Law Bender’s upcoming book with Oxford University, and her first book, "The Political Clinic: Psychoanalysis and Social Change in the 20th Century."

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