Afraid to Thaw

Summary

Bewildered – "Afraid to Thaw"

Hosts: Martha Beck (A), Rowan Mangan (B)
Date: July 15, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this lively and irreverent episode of Bewildered, Martha and Rowan dig into the deep—and often humorous—human tendency to "brace" against good things, refraining from letting themselves thaw out and fully enjoy moments of warmth, growth, or joy. Through personal stories, psychological insights, and frequent laughter, they examine how cultural and personal habits of bracing (emotionally, physically, and mentally) keep us from experiencing the full richness of life and suggest practices for "thawing" into joyful presence.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Bracing Against Goodness: The Human Freeze Response

[00:09–01:22]

• The hosts open by acknowledging a common pattern: rather than embracing positive changes (spring, new opportunities), we often "freeze," preparing ourselves for inevitable downturns.
• Rowan jokes about how Martha observes blossoming trees and focuses on the plants’ stress, rather than the beauty ("They're so stressed out because they don't have a very long growing season," Martha, [00:28]).
• Memorable contrast: Rowan, the "happy fairy," skips joyfully while Martha is skeptical and preoccupied by nature’s pressures.

2. Embracing True Nature vs. Cultural Conditioning

[01:22–02:15]

• Reiterates the podcast’s core mission: living according to one’s deepest truths, even if it means being quirky or “weird.”
• Martha and Rowan introduce the idea of "culture cleansing," learning to wash off external "shoulds" and reconnect with personal wisdom.
• Reference to their Costa Rica retreats as an avenue for practicing this, underscoring the need for community and embodied experience rather than abstract talk alone.

3. Personal Parables: Adam Beck and Emotional Expression

[02:15–05:22]

• Rowan recounts her interactions with Adam Beck, Martha’s son, who, despite being effusively loved, responds stoically ("okay") instead of with overt affection.
• This dynamic reflects how people process or "brace" against the vulnerability of expressing affection.
• Rowan: “Sometimes when people are so chill with my exuberances it makes me want to get a bit more exuberant, just to see if I can...”
• Martha notes her joy in watching Adam’s stoicism meet Rowan’s exuberance: "It gives me great delight to watch Adam being a grumpy old man in the face of the most exuberant love," [05:05].
• Adam's response becomes a metaphor: we, too, may “okay” moments of delight rather than fully receiving them.

4. Bracing at Work and in Life: Stories of Distraction & Panic

[05:36–13:15]

• Martha’s habitual last-minute approach to obligations, being easily distracted and flustered by reminders, serves as a comic but insightful illustration of bracing, self-judgment, and the panic that surrounds trying (and failing) to be "perfect."
• Rowan's experience as a bystander evokes the metaphor of waiting for a sign from a "coma patient": "Just squeeze my hand if you can hear this," [09:52].
• The recurring pledge to "never make a mistake, and all of y'all will run herd on me in a state of euphoria," [13:06], mocks both perfectionism and the collective anxiety that fuels it.

5. The Burden of Future Angst

[19:54–22:04]; [23:04–26:27]

• Martha discusses rereading two farming memoirs (The Dirty Life and Good Husbandry) set in upstate New York, relating to the frantic energy of nature "racing" through spring.
• She confesses to projecting onto nature a sense of urgency and impending doom: “I look at these gorgeous displays of flowers... and I’m like, we have to do this as fast as we can because it’s about to be horrible again,” [21:01].
• Rowan observes Martha’s mental habit: seeing joy and turning it into a source of pressure or anxiety.
• This becomes a wider reflection on projection: “We don’t see things as they are. We see things as we are,” Rowan, [24:01].
• The cultural bent toward pessimism, especially in cold climates or post-trauma, is explored.

6. Negative Bias and Cultural Conditioning

[27:08–28:50]; [29:47–31:18]

• Discussion of the evolutionary “negativity bias”—the brain’s default toward caution and suspicion in unfamiliar situations.
• Martha suggests this bracing might be a trauma response, especially after harsh winters. She recounts how people from colder lands live in a state of "tight lipped" apprehension, wary even during summer.

7. The Suffering of Staying Frozen

[40:08–42:07]

• Martha articulates the ultimate fear: if we un-brace, we’ll suffer or even die—yet ironically, “being ice is the suffering.”
• She references Dante’s Inferno, where ultimate suffering is represented not by fire, but by being trapped in a frozen lake: “That is the image… that is the bracing that is causing you to die while you’re still alive," [41:12].

8. How to Begin to Thaw

[43:18–50:04]

• Rowan asks practically: "Why are we afraid to thaw?" [44:41]. The answer is twofold—self-protection and living perpetually for future threats.
• Martha advocates for shifting attention: “Show me to what you pay attention and I will show you what you are,” referencing a (misremembered) quote.
• Rowan brings up the metaphor of perennials vs. annuals: we fear we won’t return after winter, but in fact, “the bulb is under there just waiting—it’s fine,” Rowan, [50:42].
• Martha jokes her brain defaults: “one day it won’t come up,” but recognizes life’s persistence goes beyond the individual.

9. Experiencing the World Through Story and Sensation

[52:54–54:27]

• Rowan and Martha discuss how language and story can obscure joyful presence—projecting pressure and deadlines even onto daffodils.
• Adam’s approach (minimal storytelling, maximal presence) provides a living example: when it’s time for an eye drop, he sighs deeply, fully submits to the moment, and relishes even brief comforts.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [00:28] Martha: "They're so stressed out because they don't have a very long growing season... There's a lot of pressure on them because we live in a very inhospitable climate."
• [09:52] Rowan: "It’s a little bit like when you’re dealing with, like, a coma patient... just squeeze my hand if you can hear this."
• [21:01] Martha: "We have to do this as fast as we can because it's about to be horrible again."
• [24:01] Rowan: "We don't see things as they are. We see things as we are."
• [41:12] Martha: "It is the bracing that is causing you to die while you're still alive."
• [50:42] Rowan: "The bulb is under there just waiting. It's fine."
• [56:00] Adam (paraphrased): After disappointment: "I'll be okay."
• [55:29] Rowan (on Adam’s delight at a new Switch): "He's like... the colors! And that's what it is. That's what the tulips and daffodils are. They're the fucking colors."
• [47:15] Martha (on Jesus and lilies): "Consider the lilies of the field. They toil not, neither do they sow...and yet Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these... Put grass in the oven. Shut the fuck up. It's fine."

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Segment Timestamps

| Time | Segment | |-----------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:09–01:22 | Framing the episode: “Bracing” in good seasons | | 02:15–05:22 | Adam Beck’s stoicism meets Rowan’s exuberance | | 05:36–13:15 | Martha’s distracted chaos before appointments: bracing, perfectionism, panic | | 19:54–22:04 | Spring in upstate NY: seasons as metaphor for existential anxiety | | 23:04–26:27 | Projecting urgency and pressure onto nature | | 27:08–28:50 | Negativity bias and roots of bracing | | 40:08–42:07 | “Being ice is the suffering”: Dante’s Inferno and bracing’s consequences | | 43:18–50:04 | How (and why) to thaw: attention, trauma, and metaphors of new growth | | 52:54–54:27 | Adam’s model for presence and thawing; “the colors!” |

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Conclusion: How to Thaw and Stay Present

• The art of “thawing” is the practice of shifting attention to what’s alive, vibrant, and present rather than preemptively bracing for loss.
• Presence, as modeled by Adam Beck, means savoring what is (“the colors!”) and responding to disappointment or change with gentle acceptance (“I’ll be okay”).
• By releasing bracing and negativity bias, we can move into a more vivid, connected, and joyful experience of life, even amid uncertainty.

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Tone:
Playful, deeply sincere, often silly, with irreverent humor and honest vulnerability—a conversation that meanders (like nesting parentheses!), but always returns to the heart of living “bewildered” and true to one’s nature.

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Recommended for anyone seeking to unfreeze and find joy beneath the weight of today’s expectations.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Martha Beck.

[B]

And I'm Rowan Mangan. And this is another episode of Bewildered, the podcast for people trying to figure it out.

[A]

And what are we talking about today, Rohi?

[B]

Today on Bewildered, we're going to be talking about the human tendency to brace against good things happening.

[A]

Yes, yes. To freeze in place even in the middle of a summer day.

[B]

Or the beautiful thawing of springtime, where we could be skipping through meadows, enjoying wildflowers, or we could be looking at blossoming trees like you did today, Marty, and going. They're so stressed out because they don't have a very long growing season, so they have to get growing really fast. There's a lot of pressure on them because we live in a very unhospitable climate. And at the same time, all around the birds and the bees and the pollinators and the joy is like, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. So that's what we're talking.

[A]

Yeah, we're talking about how I'm a weird ogre with. And Ro is like happy fairy. You're like Maria von Trapp in the Sound of Music just dashing through the album. Yeah.

[B]

You know the creepiest thing about that?

[A]

What?

[B]

The hills are alive.

[A]

This is even worse than I thought. Anyway, listen and find out.

[B]

Let's talk about it on Bewildered. We have a lot of conversations about finding our own true nature, and we enjoy that a lot. But talking ultimately can't compare with the lived experience of sharing space and time with kindred spirits and actually doing it. Every year, Mari and I bring Bewildered to the Costa Rican jungle for our pure wild self retreats. We call them a culture cleanse where you can wash off all the shoulds. Learn directly from Martha how to hear that wise voice of your true nature. And we laugh and play and eat amazing food and make lifelong friends. If this sounds like something your soul longs for, listen to it. You can learn [e-mail] hope to see you in the jungle.

[A]

So, Rowie, what are you trying to figure out?

[B]

I am trying to get a glimpse into the soul of Mr. Adam Beck. Your son. My stepson who lives with us. He has down syndrome. He's a man in his 30s.

[A]

30s.

[B]

Very much a sort of Yoda figure in our lives, I want to say, like a source of great wisdom, spiritual guidance and. But he's so even. He's an even tempered gentleman.

[A]

Even keeled.

[B]

Yeah. And so every now and again, when anything ruffles his feathers in any way, it's. It's like Deeply fascinating to me. And I'm trying to figure it out.

[A]

It's like, like a total eclipse or something.

[B]

Yeah, like he rolls with things. He, he, he doesn't like to. There to even be any suggestion of him not being even killed. Like if I ever ask him if he's excited for something that's coming up, he absolutely not. Just happy all the time. That's all there is to it. But you know, I, I love him. And I like to say that quite a lot. I'm an effusive kind of person. And so my, my way in general is just spontaneously and regularly to say, I love you, Adam Beck. And to which his reply without exception is okay, and, and I love it. And it's like our thing. And, and when he says okay, he really means I love you too. And. But then, you know, it sometimes when people are so chill with my exuberances, it like makes me want to get bit more exuberant, you know, just to see if I can do a little like a. So anyway, I love you, Adam Beck. Okay. The next day, I love you, Adam back. Okay. And then finally I was just like in passing, not laboring the point, but I did say to him, I love you, Adam Beck. And he said okay, which you never

[A]

hear, no, you don't.

[B]

So it's like with the power of my love, I finally pushed Adam into like, exasperation.

[A]

Oh my, oh my goodness. I hope you don't go around loving other people because they have much. They're not as. Even killed. They could go off like, like TNT at any moment.

[B]

Well, how do you find it?

[A]

Ah, it is delicious and tasty. And when it is, when you don't say, I love you, Martha Beck, you never say, I love you, Martha Beck.

[B]

Well, no, because that would be weird because Martha Beck's an author.

[A]

Oh God, yeah.

[B]

That would be so weird.

[A]

But yes, I love your exuberance and I love your expressiveness.

[B]

Good.

[A]

And it gives me great delight to watch Adam being a grumpy old man in the face of the most exuberant love. He's like, yeah, so much grumpy.

[B]

He's like taciturn and contained.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, contained.

[B]

He reminds me of the father in Mary Poppins.

[A]

Yes, very much so. Without the banking and the lot of money, which I wish he would change. Well, it'd be really nice if he were a banker with a lot of money.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Be at the bank going, okay. To everyone.

[B]

What are you trying to figure out? Money.

[A]

Oh, heavens, I'm trying to figure out myself.

[B]

Oh, boy, that's a big one.

[A]

Yeah. Because here's the thing. As you know, you become, on a regular basis, enraged me by what I am. Yes. Not. I mean, there's no. There's no screaming and yelling. It's all just subtle and energetic. But it always is about the same things. It's that I had a very important interview or a business meeting of some kind, or I'm teaching a class online and I either did not. I come over like 15 minutes before it's supposed to happen, and I'm like, dressed in a potato sack and I've got, like, leaves in my hair. And you're like, do you know you have to be interviewed on nation, like worldwide, whatever, on the World Wide Web. And I always say fuck. And then I run and get ready and leave you in your state of irateness. Who could blame you? And then the other thing is that I know it's coming up, so I'm absolutely comfortable showing up if it's. If I'm supposed to go on at 11 o', clock, 10:59 is a win. But then there are these clusters of other people who do things like edit recordings and stuff. And they start to frantically. First they text me, coming up in 30 minutes, you've got your interview, which

[B]

we've agreed that there's a system that if you know it's coming up in 30 minutes, you. You like least possible effort. You just acknowledge.

[A]

Supposed to send back the text and then thumbs up. But I don't know because. And I will tell you for why, because of all the interviews, I frequently. I mean, do not disturb. And there's another thing that I do if something comes up, like a text, I look at it and then I get distracted by things like beetles. Not the. Just beetles. The kind with six legs. How many legs did they have? They had eight legs if you count all the beetles together.

[B]

So they should have been the arachnids.

[A]

Yeah, they're more like arachnids. Oh, God. Anyway, see, this is the kind of thing I get into. And then, of course, I'm not gonna send a text back. I'm busy trying to get McQuaff to do something that is not repulsive. This doesn't work. Never does. And yet I try. So then I get on at 10:59, but in the meantime, they've been panicking and texting you.

[B]

My hands are sweating just at the thought of this. This is so, so stressful for so many people. And then because no one knows if she is aware or not at all. No one has a clue. And it's worse now because she's in a separate building from me.

[A]

It's delightful. And so after the thing, I get the irateness. You could have looked at your texts, as we have agreed to do 4 billion times. And I'm like, well, here's the thing. Every single day, I get up and I tell myself, marty, today, don't forget anything, and always check everything, even if you're distracted. Don't get distracted. In fact, do it right. Do everything right.

[B]

Don't make any mistakes, because people are

[A]

very angry at you. And you have got to stop making mistakes and getting distracted and forgetting things. And I say that. I say it earnestly, I say it cruelly. I set up alarms. And as I'm setting up the alarm, yes, I do. But as I'm setting it up, I'm saying to myself, marty, when this goes off, do not just turn it off and go on with your day. No matter how many times that happens, I feel that if I just promise myself I will not just turn it off and forget why it's on. But myself never obeys. And I sometimes think that you and all the other poor people are going, she just gets up and says, I'm gonna get distracted. Fuck all of them. I'm not paying attention to this alarm. Like I'm some sort of evil genius making plans to see how upset and anxious I can make everyone around me. I'm trying, and it never works.

[B]

It's like, from my. Can I just add my perspective to this? It's a little bit like when you're dealing with, like, a coma patient and you're trying to figure out whether or not they're conscious. And it's like, all I'm asking, like, what is the lit. Just. Just squeeze my hand if you can hear this. If. If the. Give me some sort of sign that you are here in the room. Just anything, please. Or think up a system that will work better some way, somehow, you'd think, wouldn't you? I. Oh, I do.

[A]

With all the electronics, with us basically living in the same place.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And with, like, now. I've had a hundred years of practice being distracted and screaming, oh, fuck. And running to get ready for something and then seeing, oh, it's 10:59. I've got all the time in the world before 11.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I have years and years and years of telling myself, don't make any mistakes. But I do.

[B]

And it's like a factor of my brain box that I am absolutely convinced somehow, somewhere there will Be a system that can beat this issue, that can stop any everyone from panicking unduly every time you have an appointment.

[A]

See, here's the thing. I think. I think you all should start panicking. I think you should all say, this person is fundamentally unpredictable. On the other hand, she generally shows up more. More often than not. Sometimes we think it's because we're panicking. Two times out of three, that's not the case. Two times out of three, I actually know what's coming and just fail to communicate that.

[B]

So this is being recorded. I would just like to clarify that what you're committing to right now is no reminders, no frantic calls. You'll just be fine.

[A]

You have to do all that because

[B]

other people are involved if you do all that.

[A]

But it's just as I tell myself, no distraction. What all of you have to tell yourself is you have to do this, but be happy doing it and never be upset. Never ever. And I will never, ever make a mistake. It will be amazing.

[B]

It'll be amazing.

[A]

It's like the promised land.

[B]

I. I have to. I just have to get in, like the quality of your panic when you inevitably do forget. One time out of three, it is. It is like it's never happened before.

[A]

It has. This person, it never has. It is absolutely new. Yeah. And the shock, it's like, oh, my God. But that is what. That's what fueled my success.

[B]

Adrenaline.

[A]

Yeah, adrenaline. Self loathing panic. But I. I can panic. Just don't anybody else.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. I will never forget anything or make a mistake, and all of y' all will run hurt on me in a state of euphoria.

[B]

Deal. All right.

[A]

I want you all. I want Bliss. Let's do that. You guys get to Bliss, and I will panic for the brief time it takes me to get the leaves out of my hair.

[B]

Okay. You got it. Shall we do a podcast?

[A]

Oh, all right.

[B]

Hi there. I'm Ro and I'll be your podcaster for today. Do you know how to tip your podcaster? It's actually pretty easy. You can rate our pod with lots of stars, all your stars. You can review it with your best superlatives. You can even subscribe or follow Bewildered so you'll never miss an episode. Then, of course, if you're ready to go all in, our paid online community is called Wilder, A Sanctuary for the Bewildered. And I can honestly say it's one of the few true sanctuaries online. You can go to wildercommunity.com to check it out. Rate, review, subscribe Join. And you all have a great day now.

[A]

So we talk a lot on the podcast about coming to our senses, which sounds like you could do it by yourself, but weirdly, it isn't.

[B]

No, you actually can't do it alone. And I think especially right now, when everything out there feels very polarized and overwhelming and noisy, people really often don't have a place where they can just go and be completely themselves.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So.

[A]

And that's why we started Wilder, which is our online community. And it's for people who really want kindness and connection and belonging without the strident, divisive argument that seems to be everywhere these days.

[B]

Yeah. In Wilder, we explore a new theme every month to help us stay in touch with our true nature. And there are all these live events on Zoom that are so fantastic fun from, like, body doubling, co working parties,

[A]

meditations, teaches meditations and classes.

[B]

Marty does Earth School, which is brilliant, and frequent meditations that we do together. And it is just a group of people who are the best. So if you've ever listened to this podcast and thought, I wish I could go deeper with this, or I wish I could talk to more people about these kinds of ideas, or Wilder is where that happens.

[A]

It really is. So if you want to come join [e-mail], we would love to see you there.

[B]

So, Marty, you have an issue today that we would like to bring up that it may be figured out in this safe place.

[A]

All right, excellent. This is where I like to work out all my psychological issues.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

In front of the peoples.

[B]

Yeah. All right.

[A]

So I recently read two excellent books. One of them I reread. It's called the Dirty Life. The next one is called Good Husbandry, and they're both by a really, really wonderful writer named Kristen Kimball, who is also an organic farmer.

[B]

The Dirty Life and Good Husbandry could also be titles for, like, erotica.

[A]

Absolutely. Why do you think I read them? Turns out they're about farming, which is also fairly erotic for her. She meets this guy, and he's covered with mud, and she's, like, killing vegetables. And she's like, yeah. So, yeah, she loves farming, but they do it like they don't even use machines. She drives like she's five foot two, tiny little woman, and she's driving this team of those huge horses. I think they're called Warmbloods or something, like the Budweiser horses. They're massive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she. So she wrangles them and she plows fields, and she marries this guy who's 6 foot 5 and they look like they're different species. Fascinating. Read them anyway. Their farm is in upstate New York. Is that right? And now guess who else is in upstate New York. Who? You.

[B]

Oh, my God, you're so right.

[A]

And me.

[B]

I mean, some people quibble about how upstate you have to be to.

[A]

Yeah, I think they're much more upstate because it's even colder there.

[B]

We're like downstate upstate.

[A]

Yeah, downgrade upgrade. So I read the Dirty Life years ago when I was living in Phoenix. That's another Adam. Back years ago when I was living. When I was a different guy in Phoenix. But I read it in Phoenix and didn't really have an image of the kind of weather and the environs. And then I read them again. Well, I read the Dirty Life, and then I read Good Husbandry, which is just as good. Amazing. A second memoir. As good as the first. Sorry, I can't get over these books anyway, because you turned farmer honey, and it's very erotic to see you.

[B]

I know, I know. I can't help it.

[A]

Putting together irrigation equipment. So my point is, she talks about how long and hard the winter is, and now I know what she means.

[B]

So do all our podcast listeners. Thanks. Us like, stumbling in here, you think?

[A]

I wasn't raised in the mountains with snow, but I was.

[B]

Have you ever lived in the Northeast at all, Marty?

[A]

Oh, I wouldn't say that far north. Closer to Boston, really. Oh, please. No, actually, she went to Harvard, too.

[B]

Well, there you go.

[A]

There you go. So I feel better because she came out of Harvard and ended up, like, pulling weeds all day every day for, like, decades. I went out of Harvard and became a life coach. So it's not like you have to be something that the culture would admire on its face.

[B]

Bonnie Raitt went to Harvard. What do you say now?

[A]

I say, I guess really cool people. Okay, my point. Sorry for the snarling and growling.

[B]

Oh, it's all right.

[A]

It's vaguely autistic. I was trying to get my mind back to the topic. There's also a lot of eating in these books. They eat what they grow, so. And there are pigs and other livestock. All right.

[B]

I feel like I've just been transported into a live reenactment of the song

[A]

Old MacDonald Had a Farm. This is why. This is why I can't get ready for things. I can't text you a thumbs up when I'm thinking about all the animal sounds. Yeah. Like, I recently found out groundhogs go when they're upset. Okay. Back to the topic. Why do you do this to me? Listen.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

She talks about how in the north country, the winters are long and hard, and then spring comes and everything goes bananas. Except there are no bananas. But all the other plants go bananas because they've got, like, 20 minutes to germinate, grow up, have seeds of various kinds and replant, you know, send on their genetic line. And then, bam, it's winter again. So I'm reading this and I'm like, we're just coming out of a winter in the north country, and everything is just starting to go, oh, we gotta get going. We gotta get growing. And I, like, now I'm haunted by Kristen Kimball's reminder that it's gonna be the dead of winter again in 20 minutes.

[B]

So what you're doing is you're seeing the landscape transform into blossom and tulips and daffodils, and you are interpreting it as well. Enjoy it, don't enjoy it. Cause it'll be over in five seconds. It'll be winter again.

[A]

Game of Thrones keeps coming. Winter is coming. Winter is coming. The White Walkers will come. The wall. So I. Yeah, I look at these gorgeous displays of flowers and the beautiful new green leaf coming in all over around me, and I'm like, we have to do this as fast as we can because it's about to be horrible again.

[B]

Yeah, interesting. So you're not only, like, looking at joy and new life and seeing death in it, but you're also interpreting it as pressure to do more.

[A]

Yes. To grow faster, make fruit fast.

[B]

Because now you're in. In upstate New York.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

No more machines. No more machines. Just draft horses.

[A]

We're gonna have to, like. We don't have a huge horse, so I'm gonna have to harness Bilbo. Yeah. And plow the seed. The raised beds that you bought. Oh, you didn't buy them, you got them.

[B]

As for being an influencer, I'm an influencer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know if I've mentioned it, but, yeah, I'm an influencer now.

[A]

Yeah. It's like it's. Instead of, oh, what a beautiful season it is, I'm casting my mind forward to the difficult times and that, you know, I feel that I have been prompted to go there by cultural forces because nature doesn't seem to be that worried about it, but I am.

[B]

I'm worried about you.

[A]

That makes two of us.

[B]

It's really. It's really fascinating. And I also happen to know that you're a bit tired at the moment. Like you haven't slept particularly well for a few days. And so it's funny to me that as we were driving in here today, you were, you were expressing this, this worldview of death and despair and pressure. And I just love the way that, like, you know how you talk about how you have like your top 10 tunes. Like everyone has their little. Right, their mental stories. Yeah, mental stories that they use to flagellate themselves with.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You just got aroused.

[A]

Well, you know when I said flagellate about you out there in your little dungarees, like pulling weeds and flagellating, it's pretty cool.

[B]

Oh, my Lord.

[A]

I mean, you shake them to get the dirt off the roots. Flagellate doesn't have to be sexual. Why do you always go here? Oh my God, this is out of control. It is. That's my problem. Yes. So yes. Say what you were saying.

[B]

I have no idea what I was saying.

[A]

Flagellate selves.

[B]

I remember Flagellate top 10 tunes.

[A]

Oh, yes.

[B]

So I started thinking about projection, the psychological tendency described by who?

[A]

Projection psychologists. Freud did it already. I don't know to credit Freud with.

[B]

No, no, the psychology.

[A]

Let's say cognitive behavioral therapy. I don't know.

[B]

So like, we don't see things as they are. We see things as we are. Right. And so it's like. And so you look at the most beautiful landscape that is really like almost embarrassingly beautiful and abundant and. And your vibe is.

[A]

Stop fucking telling me I need to do more.

[B]

I think you have found a way.

[A]

You think I need to produce that many flowers? I've just had a really long winter. Long winter, yeah. But it's also, you know, I thought about people who live in the north country or maybe in the deep south, like in New Zealand too, but like where it' really cold. And I have a. I had a Swedish grandmother. Karen's mother came from Denmark. So all her ancestors are Scandians of various kind. And I do think that there's a kind of like tight lipped. Oh boy. Things aren't going to go very well, you know, in a few weeks. That I think may come from this intense cold. Because Karen, our third person in our trio, she has that, you know, like, I'll get a royalty check. And I'm like, oh, let's go out to dinner or whatever. And she's like, yeah, once the taxes are paid, that won't go far. You know, like, there's always that. Better get adjusted to it. It's going, you know, enjoy it while you can. Yeah.

[B]

But, like, enjoy it while you can. Meaning, don't enjoy it because you'll ruin it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

If you. If you let go of your pessimism, suspicion, caution for a second and have, like, unadulterated hooray. That would be a good name for this episode. Yes.

[A]

Unadulterated hooray. Wow.

[B]

So we have some unadulterated hooray. You're unprotected in that moment from. You know, it's like they can get you. It's very superstitious.

[A]

It's a very.

[B]

Like, I'm getting pictures of, like. Oh, no, I shouldn't say, because it's going to sound like.

[A]

What are you getting pictures of? Come on it, like, I don't know,

[B]

people living in, like, little borough. Suspicious people, superstitious people.

[A]

People live in boroughs.

[B]

I'm thinking, like, I don't know, medieval people is what I'm to say.

[A]

All right. Of course. So they're in their burrows, these medieval people, having. I bet they escaped the plague just because they were dug in.

[B]

They escaped the plague because they were scared of the plague. And they. They survived. And therefore the only post hoc ergo propter hog, West Wing reference.

[A]

Not.

[B]

Not that I went to Harvard, just went to West Wing school. Post hoc ergo propter hog after it. Therefore, because of it. The fallacy that.

[A]

Because you were miserable.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's why you saved from something that you expected to be miserable.

[B]

Yeah. And I reckon, like, I don't do research on neuroscience because I have you to do it for me.

[A]

Because my brain is so weird that you can just watch it go on.

[B]

No, because while I am stressing out about your calendar, you're reading neuroscience and not getting on zoom. So you have told me that we have evolutionarily a negativity bias in our brains that is like if you were living in a borough somewhere in old days. That's what they did in the olden days. It's called evolution. So then. And you hadn't seen something before, be suspicious of it until you know for sure. And so our brains are, like, in that posture of be suspicious of it until you're absolutely sure that it is a positive thing. And. And it's just like. It's like a appendix or something. It's like this thing that we don't really need.

[A]

We kind of do still need it. I mean, it is still probably smart to be suspicious of, like, an environment you've never been in.

[B]

Okay, but I'm saying tulips and daffodils.

[A]

Well, if you've never seen them. They could look vicious and actually. No, I take your point and I like it. And I do think it's worth, like when you get an impulse of like a fear impulse towards something you've never seen before, you also become curious and start to like, try to figure it out. Because that's sort of the alternative.

[B]

You poke it with your little finger. Yeah.

[A]

On one side of the brain there's more avoidance. On the other side of the brain there's more like, oh, I want to see what that is. So there's that. But I actually think this and it may be related because I don't know any real neuroscience, just layman's neuroscience. It may be. I think this is like a trauma response. So here I have to side with the youngsters that something can be traumatic even if it's just winter. Right. If you get cold enough. Believe me, last winter, as our listeners know, was a full fledged trauma for me. That made me feel bad because some people are going through full fledged trauma and winter really wasn't. But I am scarred. And I do think that when something, when you've been through something that's like, oh my God, that was hard because it was such a hard winter. I thought I was fine and then it just got harder than winter had ever been for me.

[B]

Well, in fairness, you had no walls.

[A]

I had no walls. Our house melted the whole thing. Yes. And I think it may be this sort of bracing. And this goes to the, you know, the cultures of people who live in the far north who are sort of braced all the time for like, it's coming again. And I actually think, like, our darling Karen robs herself of the joy of summer sometimes in all these ways. And I think that that is sort of the cultural. It's one kind of cultural trope that says, yeah, if something bad happened and you always bear it in mind, even when good times come, you'll be able to cope better in general. And I think that's absolutely false. I do it, I have it, I've been doing it. But as we talked in the car and you said, flowers are nice, and I was like, you fool. Don't you realize what's happening? Kristen Kimball says they have to grow like frantically and make fruit because they're really stressed. They're very, very worried about traumatic winter. And, and just parenthetically, you started noticing how I anthropomorphized all of nature, like trees. That tree is worried. That's why it's blossoms are coming out so hard and fast. That can sit under a lot of pressure at work. That's right. So funny. Once we. Again, parenthetically, within the parentheses, this is

[B]

the most like audistic ADHD thing is parentheses within parentheses, within parentheses, multiple times. Talking to you.

[A]

Nesting dolls.

[B]

Because we both have that way of thinking.

[A]

We just play ditches until right in the middle of it, when you have 19 parentheses, you forget them all and

[B]

we just go completely blame. And that's called enlightenment.

[A]

There you go. How good. I'll stop. Because I was telling myself, martha, don't go blank. Don't go blank in high pressure moments.

[B]

Great idea.

[A]

Stop it.

[B]

What a great idea.

[A]

Okay, so anthropomorphizing. Yes. And how we project. Coming back to that, one of our beloved starlings, we call them, who go to the African star retreats where you and I met. He was really athletic. And we. We were out safari ing and we saw a leopard in the daytime.

[B]

Oh, yes.

[A]

Just lying there. Because big cats do a lot of just. All cats do a lot of just lying there. So later, you know, we had them do a little journal thing and he wrote and read to us. The leopard is free to relax because she has finished her workout. I said, that's so sweet. Everybody thinks that everything in nature is on their wavelength.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so, yeah, I was very stressed out on behalf of the trees and flowers having to produce so quickly. Yeah.

[B]

Isn't that amazing? I mean, I just think. I do think it's fascinating to kind of picture. I'm always fascinated by the idea of subjectivity. Like the idea of living behind this one set of eyes through which the world looks like every experience you've ever had. And the tiny tinge of color that each moment brought is. That is what constitutes everything you can see around you. And the idea that what instead of like, oh, it's a. It's a lens through which, you know, like all our experience is a lens through which we're seeing the world. It's like, no, we're just seeing our own perspective.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And everything that we see is just like a Rorschach blot, telling us back to ourselves, our own biases and stories and our top 10 hits.

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah. And it's encouraged culturally. It's. It's assumed. Like, I love nature documentaries, and if they're by somebody like Richard Attenborough, they're generally quite scientific.

[B]

David Attenborough.

[A]

Did I say Richard?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, well, yeah. He was an off, off brand Attenborough that I used to hang out with a lot. Real name was Dirky. Scrubs. Now, okay, back to the topic, which I have completely forgotten, but like movies and even documentaries back in the day before they got really scientific. Have I talked about the bear?

[B]

Oh, I don't know, but you must

[A]

have a movie called Bears and it was about bears. And in the. In the movie, a bear comes out of hibernation with two little cubs and her name is Skye, because that's how bears do. So she comes out with her cubs, Johan and Donkey Teeth. And. And they're like scampering around the spring landscape and they need. They need food, like the bears who are scampering around our landscape right now. And they're very polite, they never do anything bad. But she comes out and they are

[B]

under a lot of pressure.

[A]

They are under a lot of pressure. So sky comes out and she's like, blinking at the sun.

[B]

She's in a nature documentary.

[A]

Yeah, she's woken up from her hibernation. She's a little groggy, but, like, she's had a good sleep. There are two babies that popped out while she wasn't looking. She's like, oh, those are cool.

[B]

And then I will call her Donkey Teeth.

[A]

Donkey Teeth. And she goes to a kind of mossy embankment and lies down on her back and spreads her enormous paws out like this and throws her head back. And the little cubs come and they're nursing. And I know from experience that when your brain produces oxytocin, like it does to get your mammals to have milk, you go into a kind of blissful euphoria. That's what everyone should do. All of you, when I'm about to have an appointment, should start nursing. Not on each other, just nursing something.

[B]

Nursing is a very old fashioned euphemism.

[A]

Breastfeeding. You shall feed the breasts. You shall all begin breastfeeding. Anything alive. A plant aunt will do. All right. Just breastfeed.

[B]

Something I always do.

[A]

You go into. Yes, I know. That's why it occurred to me. So sky the bear is just like in this tidal wave of oxytocin and mild, like, grogginess. And it says what?

[B]

Just that you're projecting your experience of breastfeeding onto.

[A]

That is my point.

[B]

I know, but it's funny because you're like. But I'm right.

[A]

Well, I. You have to admit, you'll see it. The expression on that bear's face. It's just bear like. Bears have many expressions.

[B]

So what did. What did. The narration.

[A]

The narrator says, everything's okay for now, but sky is worried about her milk supply. And I Don't believe it. No, I don't believe that bears worry about their milk supplies. I mean, they get hungry. But I think that may be just about it. And so this is why I think the culture in general, number one, anthropomorphizes all of nature. Number two, thinks we should all be worried about our milk supply, you know, produce now, fast, because bad times are coming. And so I think that movies like that go to my point, which is that, number one, we anthropomorphize everything in nature. Bears, plants, what have you. Rocks, even I do. And number two, we have this bias that says everything is worried because winter is coming. And then we have our fear of mortality, which is like the ultimate winter. And basically, you get a lot of people trying to produce, hysterically trying to produce a lot of fruit and flowers while not enjoying anything.

[B]

And it's interesting, you were saying braced, because there is something so physically true about. There is a mode that we can go into physically if. And. Or at least I speak for myself, like, there is a way that if you're like, I will not allow myself deeply to feel cold in this moment.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can almost hold it at bay internally. And so there. And. And I can do that with fear as well, really. Like, race again, I can say I refuse to allow this fear in. And there's been a lot of, like, scary moments in my life, like, you know, in foreign countries, traveling alone and stuff, where I've just had to be like, I. I will not, in this moment, like a culture. I won't succumb. So you can brace against certain things. And winter, like, it's kind of a great example, I think, because winter and cold, the feeling of coldness, we can literally physically in. Involve ourselves in trying to resist it. And it kind of works. At least I feel like it. It does. But then the idea that once that cold is passed, we must remain braced, lest it get in right sneakily sideways.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

You know, and this idea that, like, so to. To expand it a bit from coldness or darkness or. Or fear or whatever, into just here we are in the world. And if. When. Like, what is it that we think is gonna get in at us through the chinks if we don't harden at all times? Like, if we. If we're not on guard, what is it that's gonna come in and get us?

[A]

I think. Yeah, I think deep down, it is fear of mortality. Like, you will die. Like, at a very primitive level, we're thinking, never let this happen again. That. That kind of you are not well, you will suffer. If you don't brace, you will suffer. And the ultimate suffering in sort of the imagination is to die. So I think people are literally afraid that they will suffer to death if they don't brace. But what it turns into is a kind of motto that I just realized, which is, never thaw. Don't do it. Stay iced up.

[B]

Yes, yes. Hold the ice position even as the sun is shining, because softness and vulnerability to pain or to suffering are the same thing. So stay hard all the time, and then you can't suffer. And, of course, the very obvious irony is that holding is that being ice

[A]

is the suffering, which I think Dante was all over this because people think the Inferno means flame. It doesn't. It just means what's underneath. And the devil in the Divine Comedy is not in a place of fire and brimstone. The devil is locked in a lake of ice. It's a completely frozen sea almost. And, like, the worst of the sinners are there, like, frozen into ice with the devil. And that is the image, I think Dante was saying, this is the ultimate suffering when you freeze everything because you're so enraged, suspicious, fearful, controlling, like, all these cultural things that we actually value. That image, to me, said it is the bracing that is causing you to die while you're still alive. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

We. We push this hardness, and then we push the expectation of hardness. And I kind of mean it like we. There. There is a physical bracing that goes along with this attitude. Right. Of be careful, be alert.

[A]

It's interesting that as we speak, you and I both have, like, frozen shoulders.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Our left shoulders, each of us. I don't know why. Like, we're turning. We turn to see each other the way C3PO does in the original Star Wars. Have you seen my glasses?

[B]

They're over there. Where? There? Yeah. It's pretty.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. You can only turn from, like, the

[B]

waist, so we've just got to learn to thaw. Our shoulders must thaw.

[A]

I mean, we went. I think it, like, maybe related. We just, like, we clenched up quite severely to get through that winter. And, like, we did it financially, we did it emotionally, and we did it physically. And now the word frozen is applied to the shoulder because it's locked in like ice. And maybe we're just. Maybe we just need a good thaw.

[B]

All right, so let us explore what it means to thaw right after this. So we're all holding ourselves. We've. We've got these braced attitudes that if you stop and enjoy Things, then you will suffer because something's gonna catch you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you're not.

[A]

If you're not ready, if you're not in the north country, maybe you're afraid of the rainy season or drought or whatever. Like, we all have things that we are afraid to mean people.

[B]

Or, you know, like it's. It's like we can extend the metaphor beyond weather. I think maybe you're afraid of thunder.

[A]

Maybe you're afraid of flooding.

[B]

Our daughter's so afraid of flooding. I don't know what has got hold of her, but she is, like, asking me questions all the time.

[A]

We live on a hill and listen.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

We had that flood. I mean, the house melted.

[B]

The house did melt in.

[A]

So she's braced. Okay, all right.

[B]

She's braced.

[A]

There was water pouring from our ceilings, like, most of the winter.

[B]

Okay, so that was before you started sawing into the pipes.

[A]

Hey, I was requested. That was not my fault. I never worked an electric saw before. Okay, go. Go forward. What are we talking about?

[B]

Okay. Why do you think we are so attached to our own braced posture in life, about everything? Why are we afraid to thaw?

[A]

Self protection and living continuously in the future.

[B]

So how shall we thaw? How shall we convince our lizard brains that we are that it can be safe enough to just relax and enjoy?

[A]

Ah, what an excellent question. There is a person whose name I've forgotten, but he said something very interesting once. He said, show me to what you pay attention and I will show you what you are. And I'll look it up after the podcast so we can put it in the show notes or whatever. But I've been wandering around the north country.

[B]

If you're traveling to the north Country Fair. I have suppressed doing that every time you've said north country in this entire episode, and it has been killing me.

[A]

Well, see, that's to our point. The wind sits heavy on the borderline.

[B]

Yes. Bob Dylan.

[A]

Oh. Because when you remember me, you squeeze your eyes shut like you're having an appendectomy without anesthesia. Who lives there?

[B]

Well, it's not easy to do a good Bob Dylan.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

Have you ever done

[A]

so I've been wandering around and the green is coming on and the flowers are all around, and I am thinking. Think about the snow. Think about the snow. Focus on the snow. Look at these walls that melted during the snow.

[B]

All the things, even the walls were br. To melt.

[A]

They melt. That's true. They thought the whole damn place thawed except the outside of it.

[B]

Maybe we should rethink this whole thing. Just don't thaw. Stay bright.

[A]

But it really, the image of the world really changes depending on where your attention is. So if you're thinking about the return of something difficult, you don't see the flowers and you don't see the green. And nature is 100% just being green again. That's all it's doing right now. I don't know, maybe I'm anthropomorphizing again. But it's a good bet that nature is not sharing my particular worldview, all of nature. So I think what it's saying is, look at the flowers, don't think about the snow.

[B]

And in fact, did Jesus ever say anything about this?

[A]

He did. And even though I am not a Christian, I really love this part of the New Testament. Would you like me to quote it? Because I was raised Mormon and I had to read it 80,000 times. Even if you don't. Too late now. Winter's coming. Consider the lilies of the field. They toil not, neither do they sow. Yet Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed as one of these. If God so clothed the grass of the field, which day is. And tomorrow is cut down and cast into the oven, how will he not clothe you, oh, ye of little faith? So what he's basically saying is put

[B]

grass in the oven.

[A]

Put grass in the oven. Shut the fuck up. It's fine.

[B]

Yeah, so I love that it doesn't toil and it doesn't sew. And you have, like, internalized this message as a child. And then you literally see it cherry blossom.

[A]

And you're like, you.

[B]

Oh, my God. God, the deadlines that you are facing. I mean, there must be so many spreadsheets.

[A]

It may be reap not. So I just. Now I'm. Now I'm having a Mormon kerfuffle about. Inner kerfuffle about. Did I get the scriptural reference right? It's basically okay. Look at the flowers. Look at the flowers. I got most of the words. We've gotten most of most of the time now.

[B]

It's beautiful. I think as. As a farmer myself and an influencer and a farm influencer, what I would say Jesus was getting at there is that you are a perennial. You are not an annual.

[A]

What? Say more Farmer row. I don't get the difference.

[B]

Well, so if you are a perennial and then at the, like, fall comes and everything goes right.

[A]

Especially me.

[B]

I know. And then it's winter just being winter. Everything's kind of Boring. And then after winter, spring, and then you go, oh, like sky the bear.

[A]

Oh, here I am.

[B]

Here I am again. I came out of my burrow. Everyone has a borough.

[A]

It's about burrowing.

[B]

It is about.

[A]

That's the key. Burrow, yes. Don't. Yeah, far. But burrow. Anyway, go on. Perennials.

[B]

So. So we are going to pop up again after the winter. And it is only because I think you're right. Like, there's. There's always this weird mortality overlay in all our psychological. That and mortality is. Anyway, because we are perennials, we're not annuals.

[A]

And, you know, and that makes mortality. So we're never gonna die.

[B]

No, Death is not real.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[B]

So. But that's. That's like. I've just extended the metaphor further than the conversation. Come back to the burrow with me, child. Don't be afraid.

[A]

Come, little one. I have a house made of candy.

[B]

So. Yeah. So I think the thing is that we think we're annuals. We think that the winter is going to kill us and kill us dead forever, and that someone will have to get a whole new seed and plant us anew. And. But no, the bulb is under there just waiting. It's fine.

[A]

So the bulb is under there all winter. Now, I am a really tough case because as you're thinking that. I'm thinking, well, one day it won't come up.

[B]

But.

[A]

But here's the thing. The way nature works it, even if it never comes up again, the reason it comes up is to create new life. It's not just blooming for the hell of it. It's actually the continuation of life through generations and years and millennia. And like, millions of years, creatures and plants have been blooming, dying, compost and composting. And then up things come again. Like, there's really. This is what I've learned from watching you farm. I used to think, like, the tomatoes that are now all over our house, they're still. They're bearing fruit. It's not good because.

[B]

Well, I mean, in fairness, it is good that they're bearing fruit.

[A]

But you said the fruit isn't good. The tomatoes are not good.

[B]

Well, they would prefer to be growing in the wild.

[A]

So, okay, so the whole house is full of tomato plants that are like, hello, I have red things for you, but they're not very tasty.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Whoa. Talk about negativity bias. You had to go there. Red is a beautiful color. Listen to me. Our house is full of tomatoes because we didn't actually believe that those little Tiny dry seeds would become huge tomato plants with thousands of tomatoes like groaning on the stems.

[B]

We were braced.

[A]

We were braced. We believed nothing would happen because we didn't. We had more faith in death than in life. And I think the way you saw is to shift your focus from death onto life. Because the way I've been doing it is I see life and shift my focus onto death. I see plenty and shift my focus onto scarcity.

[B]

And.

[A]

And it's as easy to reverse that as it is to thinking in the first place. And I do believe that sky, the bear and the groundhogs in our yard and the deer and whatever, they're going, well, hey, howdy, look at this. It's fabulous.

[B]

You know what I think is a. Is a factor here is I think the fact that we tell ourselves stories with language adds some sort of imprint over the tulips and the daffodils that makes them more than what they are. Instead of just going, ah, we're like, here is a. Is a thing that has a lot of deadlines, and it. It is a representation of life, but also it is a. Whereas the sky, the bear is just, like, cool.

[A]

You know what? This goes back all the way to what you brought as your first thing about Adam Beck, because he doesn't have as much story in his head, and he also doesn't censor expressions of delight. So I have to put an eye drop in his eye every night because he had a cornea transplant, and he does something. And he does this whenever something enjoyable happens. So to get his eye drop in, he sits down on a chair and put a soft chair, puts his head all the way back so he's looking straight up at the ceiling. And every single time I come in and say, okay, Adam, time for your eye drop. And he gets himself in position, and he leans his head back, and then he goes like. It's. So my head is resting right now. It's going to last for literally one second, but he is tucking in like he's on vacation at the beach.

[B]

Yeah. And actually, it's. I. I just think about how he, you know, he loves his video games, and he likes to analyze the difference as he upgrades to. From, like, switch one to switch. Oled. There's a lot of analysis, and the analysis usually is, you know, on the switch. Oled. Different colors. There's more colors. True. And then he gets a switch, too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he's like, I mean, I'll. I'll paraphrase, you know, since I got this new switch, too. And it has, you know, 4K screen and everything. It's a lot more colors. There's. The colors are a lot. It's more or less a verbatim quote, actually, but it's so. It's. That's the thing is, it's like that is him enjoying it. Yeah. He doesn't need to be like, oh, my God, the resolution is blah, blah, blah, Pixel Duda. He's like, the colors. And that's what it is. That's what the tulips and daffodils are. They're the fucking colors.

[A]

They really are. That's brilliant. And you know what else? I'm realizing that he does that when something goes wrong. And I actually am just, like, perceiving this. You can say to him, you know, we're going for a hike. It's going to be a beautiful day. And he gets all ready. And then you say, oh, Adam, it's starting to rain. And he was really looking forward to it, right? And he goes. He gets grumpy for like, half a second, and then he goes and he says, I'll be okay.

[B]

I'll be okay.

[A]

He always says, but there's that instead of brace, freeze, there is difficulty. Thaw. Thaw into what's actually happening.

[B]

It's like, thaw into what is.

[A]

I'll be okay. And that. That whole focusing on the deep sigh, it actually resets the nervous system, because the brain stem, when you're taking. When you do, the sigh of relief, tells the rest of the brain that it's okay. And that's how he encounters change. Huh? Well done, Adam Yoda. Yep.

[B]

He is the Yoda of our house.

[A]

Because staying present and thawing into whatever is happening, that's how we stay wild.

[B]

Thanks for being a bewildered listener. I want to take a moment to formally invite you to join our online community, Wilder, which is where Marty and I go when we need to come to our senses. Wilder is the best place in the world to connect with other people who are trying to live by their true nature and not by the culture. Find [e-mail] Meanwhile, Bewildered Podcast is recorded at Upstate Podcast Studio. It's edited by Scott Forster and only exists because of the incredible team at Martha Beck, Inc. Please rate us, review us, join the Wilder community. And don't forget, stay Wild.

[A]

Hello, the lovely peoples. This is Marty, Martha, inviting you to a free masterclass that I have made called Five Paths to youo Purpose. Probably the most common question I get from people is, how do I find my purpose? Why don't I feel that I'm on purpose. Well, it turns out there are certain things you have to do to find your purpose. And I broke them down into five and I made a little masterclass about it. So if you'd like to see it, just go to marthaveck. Com purpose and you will be able to watch it without any charge at all.