Best of Bewildered: How to Get Started

Summary

Bewildered Podcast – "Best of Bewildered: How to Get Started"

Hosts: Martha Beck & Rowan Mangan
Date: December 11, 2024

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Episode Overview

In this lively and heartfelt episode, Martha Beck and Rowan Mangan dig into the common human experience of resistance—that bewildering inertia we feel when we avoid doing the very things that bring us the most joy and satisfaction. Along the way, they explore the nature of transitioning between different "parts" of ourselves, laugh through stories of daily parenting and embarrassment, and offer practical wisdom for embracing the quirky realities of being human. Guest questioner Josephine’s struggle to “get started” anchors a wide-ranging, honest, and funny discussion about self-kindness, curiosity, and creating welcoming transitions in our lives.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Embracing Our True Nature vs. Cultural Conditioning

• Theme: The show’s purpose is about setting aside societal expectations ("the controlling voice of the culture") and reconnecting with our instinctive, individual “true nature.”
• Martha and Rowan emphasize that feeling bewildered or out of step might actually be a sign you’re on the right path.
  • "Human culture teaches us to come to consensus, but nature, our own true nature, helps us come to our senses." — Martha Beck [00:56]
• Living in alignment with your "deepest truths" sometimes means "looking weird," which the hosts approach with humor.

2. Recognizing and Normalizing Everyday Awkwardness

• Rowan shares a hilarious and vulnerable story about accidentally exposing herself to her babysitter thanks to toddler Lila's clinginess.
  • "I don't like to wear underwear to bed ... so when my pants were pulled down ... in front of a babysitter ... well ... We didn't mention it." — Rowan [04:36]
  • Martha responds with her trademark wit, imagining Morrison comes out "like Venus in the Botticelli," making light of embarrassment.
• This segues into discussing how everyone (not just Rowan) feels “weird,” but that weirdness is often universal—just rarely spoken about.

3. Parenting and the Lessons of Transition

• Lila, Martha and Rowan’s toddler, is the muse for stories about the brutality and comedy of raising a two-year-old.
  • Martha describes "Lila's brutal strength" and “being savagely beaten about the head and face” with a hairbrush in a display of role-reversed play—underscoring how children experience adults’ attempts to help.
    • “She goes, ‘We’re just going to get it out of your eyes.’ Bam. My hair is not long enough to go in my eyes.” — Martha [09:11]
  • Rowan reflects on how apologizing becomes mimicry for Lila, illustrating how kids internalize adult behaviors.
• They note that parenting a toddler revolves around navigating and smoothing the constant, drama-filled transitions—useful wisdom for everyone.

4. Listener Question: Why Is It So Hard to Start Joyful Things? ([13:47])

• Josephine's Question: “Why do I resist doing things that are good for me and bring me joy? I dread them at first but always feel better after.”
• Both Martha and Rowan instantly relate, naming activities they love (like physical therapy or writing) but always resist starting.
  • “I will do everything I can to not go in there ... part of me seems to be afraid ...” — Martha [14:28]
  • “You don’t want to get in the bath, you don’t want to get out of the bath.” — Rowan [15:32]
• Insight: The resistance is universal—it’s part of human nature to experience inertia and reluctance when transitioning between activities or “selves.”
  • “The culture assumes we are unitary ... but I don’t think we are unitary in that way.” — Rowan [16:12]

5. Internal Parts and The Challenge of Transition

• Discussion turns to Internal Family Systems (IFS) and parts psychology, suggesting we are made of many “selves”—the “writer,” “admin chick,” “artist self,” “Hestia” (goddess of the hearth), etc.
  • “Every part of you is a whole and complete personality … like if you want to talk to the part of you that loves to cuddle in bed, it’s literally a different person from the one who wants to jump out of bed and get going.” — Martha [18:27]
• These parts find it hard to hand off control to each other, creating resistance at transitions.
• Inertia isn’t laziness—it’s natural: “A body when set in motion will continue in the same direction until acted on by an equal and opposite force.” — Martha [17:54]

6. The Power of Curiosity and Gentle Self-Transition

• The hosts explore using curiosity as a tool to “prime” transitions—both with children and ourselves.
  • With toddler Lila: “Ro just quietly picks up a book and starts reading … curiosity pulls her into the state of wanting to be reading books.” — Martha [26:44]
• Drawing the parallel to adult life: to make the transition desirable, spark curiosity rather than use force or guilt.
  • “Maybe curiosity is the force that is powerful enough to switch the inertia of a state.” — Martha [28:18]
• Be gentle and prepare yourself for the transition; creating small, enjoyable rituals or rewards smoothes the way.

7. Reward vs. Punishment: What Actually Helps Us Get Started

• They point out that culturally, we default to punishing ourselves (e.g., using writing apps that delete words if you pause) but research—and animal trainers—demonstrate that reward is far more effective.
  • “Reward as reinforcement is 51 times more powerful than punishment.” — Martha [38:52]
  • Memorable detail: Pig clicker training and “clickety-clack” writing apps reinforce this: little joys and shiny rewards actually work!
• For enjoyable transitions, they suggest:
  • Set up a pleasant environment in advance (“action priming”)
  • Give yourself a reward before, during, and after the activity
  • Build social accountability (writing in synchronized zoom groups)
  • Respect and comfort your “reluctant” self as you approach the transition

8. Acknowledgement: This Is Human Nature

• It isn’t a flaw or a problem; it’s “human nature”—not culture, not mere laziness. All humans, across cultures, experience this difficulty with transitions.
  • “The reluctance to change states, having to be ... is universally true for all cultures.” — Martha [31:00]
• Pushing yourself or others makes resistance worse; gentleness, self-kindness, and creative transitions are key.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Do you ever, like, think, is everyone as weird as me? And they just don't talk about it constantly, you know?"
  — Rowan [01:52]
• "Human nature... that is exactly where this falls. Because it's not—a lion won't behave this way."
  — Rowan [29:55]
• "If you want to switch states... don't be mean or pushy with yourself. It does not work."
  — Martha [33:00]
• "Reward as a reinforcement for behavior is 51 times more powerful than punishment... Just use carrots. Right?"
  — Martha [38:52]
• "We cannot ... We're a community that is suddenly now helping each other do things instead of in opposition."
  — Martha [38:16]
• "How do we bridge the two states?"
  — Rowan [44:54]
• "Being respectful and loving toward the part that doesn't want to stop, instead of saying, 'You have to stop now,' it's like, 'Oh, I so get that you love to paint...'"
  — Martha [44:54]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:56 — Main theme: Culture vs. nature, and feeling “bewildered”
• 03:55 — Rowan's babysitter/pajama pants story
• 09:11 — Lila hairbrush parenting anecdote
• 13:47 — Listener Josephine’s question: Resistance to doing things that bring joy
• 17:54 — Inertia vs. laziness; parts of the self
• 23:10 — Artist self "bear out of a cage" metaphor
• 26:44 — Using curiosity to help transition (parenting trick)
• 31:00-33:00 — Human nature: Universal resistance to transition, the futility of pushiness
• 33:38 — Practical tips for transitions: prepping, rewards, action priming
• 38:52 — Rewards vs. punishment; clicker training
• 41:48 — Social support, group accountability
• 44:54 — Focusing on the fun and kindness in transitioning
• 46:29 — Shiny object trick for motivation

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Tone and Style

The tone is candid, quirky, and playful, with Martha and Rowan laughing at themselves and each other while mining their real-life stumbles for insight and compassion. They combine gentle self-awareness with nerdy references, heartfelt reflections on motherhood, and offbeat practical advice. There’s no shame here—just encouragement to treat your bewilderment and reluctance with humor and kindness.

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Takeaways

• Resistance to starting joyful or healthy things is not a personal failing; it’s a universal aspect of human nature
• Multiple “parts” within the self have inertia; gentle negotiation, preparation, and rewards help these transitions
• Curiosity and small joys—even trivial ones—can powerfully pull us toward change
• Being kind to yourself isn’t weak; it’s effective and necessary
• Community—of inner parts, other people, or both—makes things easier and more fun

Stay wild—and go find a shiny object to spark your next joyful transition!

Transcript

[A]

So, as some of you listeners may know, a few months ago, Ro and I started something called the Wilder Community, which is kind of an online village where people like us, who want to find our true nature, even if it peels us away from culture, can get together, commune, make friends, and do things.

[B]

We have all kinds of regular events in there that are just so fun. We have a weekly hang where we get together and we have conversation and we make art in our own little rooms, in our own little places. But all together, there are group meditations that Martha leads that are crazy powerful, and there are just all kinds of, like, monthly themes and, like, personal development stuff that we work through together, and just a hive of activity and connection among really wonderful people.

[A]

Yeah. So if you're feeling drawn to belong to a community in these troubled times, give Wilder a try. It'[e-mail] or. And we hope we'll see you there. Welcome to Bewildered. I'm Martha Beck, here with Rowan Mangan. At this crazy moment in history, a lot of people are feeling bewildered. But that actually may be a sign we're on track. Human culture teaches us to come to consensus, but nature, our own true nature, helps us come to our senses. Rowan and I believe that the best way to figure it all out is by going through bewilderment into the wild on it.

[B]

That's why we're here.

[A]

Hi, I'm Martha Beck.

[B]

And I'm Rowan Mangan. And this is another episode of Bewildered, the podcast for people trying to figure it out. Isn't it, Marty?

[A]

Yes. And so what are you trying to figure out at this moment in your life?

[B]

Do you ever, like, think, is everyone as weird as me? And they just don't talk about it constantly, you know, where you do that thing where you're just like, this is what my life is like. And I'm familiar with how odd it is, but I don't really see that oddness represented around me.

[A]

What oddness do you speak of in specifics?

[B]

All right, so what I'm thinking. What I'm thinking of is something that happened last week where I was in New York with Lila at our apartment, and our babysitter came over. Lovely young woman. And I. In that morning, I had been a little bit sleepy. Lila hasn't slept well. And so I was. I was sort of a little bit taken aback when she turned up, because I might have just dozed off a.

[A]

Little when the babysitter turned up.

[B]

The babysitter. Okay, sorry. And Lila is a baby.

[A]

Lila, just in case this is their first.

[B]

Listen, I'm sorry, Lila is a baby. Some random baby babysitter turns up. I'm a little bit sleepy and taken aback, and, oh, gosh, isn't it at that time already? I'm in my PJs, right?

[A]

I'm in my PJs.

[B]

I'm not ashamed of that.

[A]

That's not odd.

[B]

That's okay, isn't it?

[A]

Yeah, totally.

[B]

So I'm quickly. Because at like, 10 to 9, I was like, oh, crap, she's going to be here so quickly making oatmeal for Lila. Here's the oatmeal. Babysitter comes in. She's talking to me. I'm in the kitchen. She's near the kitchen.

[A]

And you punched her in the face.

[B]

I did nothing of the sort.

[A]

Oh, you're not odd. Go on.

[B]

All right, so what happened was Lila. Is it in a bit of a clingy phase and really needed my full attention and, like, my. The attention not just of my face, but also my hands in that moment, but my hands as I spoke to the babysitter. This is the multitasking reality of the mother. Talk to the babysitter, deal with the toddler underfoot, juggle my cup of coffee. Very important part in the morning, her oatmeal. Right. So a bowl of oatmeal in one hand, coffee in the other hand. Can you picture it?

[A]

I've got it.

[B]

And paint a word picture for you. I'm walking. I'm trying to walk towards the babysitter to get this show on the road while we chat. Now, what happened at that moment, Mari.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Is that Lila grabbed my pajama pants as I tried to walk forward.

[A]

I see.

[B]

And her clinginess just. She just transferred it all away from me, myself, and just into those PJ pants, these pink flannel, big gold PJ pants. And so. All right, so maybe this is the bit that maybe I'm weird. I don't like to wear underwear to bed.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

I don't. It's not comfortable. So when my pants were pulled down.

[A]

Oh, dear.

[B]

In front of a babysitter that we don't know super well yet. Well enough to trust her with our kid, but not well enough to, like, get.

[A]

Get naked?

[B]

I would think so. Yeah. That happened. We didn't mention it.

[A]

No. You never will.

[B]

No. I don't know. I don't feel like we're closer necessarily from that. I would have expected maybe that there'd be. Or maybe she would have gone out of her Way to find an opportunity to, like, do the same thing so that I felt better about it.

[A]

I think she would just drop trowel right there. We're all good. This is great. No problem. I think this actually may become a barrier to intimacy. Ironically, getting naked at first notice, you know, know, first friendship is like, yeah, that. You're never going to get over that.

[B]

In fairness, I was only half naked, but it's just not the regular half that you expect.

[A]

You would sort of want the other half if you had to choose.

[B]

If you had to choose.

[A]

And so would probably the babysitter choose the other half.

[B]

It's interesting because I wonder if that's cultural. Which half is more private? Is that cultural or is that nature?

[A]

Well, they have bars, or they did when I was there a hundred years ago called no pond bars. So. So the. Like, we have Hooters in America where the waitresses have. I know I do. Yeah. I speak for yourself. But they have. In. In Japan, they have these no pond bars where the women have blouses on but nothing from the waist down. So I think that that is like more the focus there. I'm not sure. But I. So, yeah, I mean, it's maybe if something's more sexually desirable. I don't know, they just. I. Maybe they just think that part is less embarrassing for some reason.

[B]

I don't know. Maybe the whole thing is that it's half, you know, like, it doesn't matter as much which half. As that half is concealed, half is revealed.

[A]

Yeah, you just. I just picture you sailing out of the kitchen like Venus in the Botticelli, just naked in a clamshell. In a clamshell. What babysitter wouldn't be pleased to work.

[B]

For such a family brandishing a cup of co. Oatmeal. Oatmeal.

[A]

The divine oatmeal. What you should have done is just handed both of them to the babysitter and said, for you, madame, and then done a little dance. So you. No, I meant. I meant for this to happen.

[B]

That's what I tried to convey. Like, I tried to convey, like, oh, this again, like. And I kind of put. I quickly put the coffee and the oatmeal down on the counter and. And grabbed my pants, but, like, all the time keeping this facial expression of. Of like. No. Anyway, so that's.

[A]

Look, wake up, Australia. Wake up. You should have said, wake up, Australia, because that would make her think that in Australia, you get up, you have your coffee and your oatmeal, you drop your pants, and that's the morning.

[B]

I just. Thank you for saying that because I just really want my Aussie listeners to appreciate that whenever someone is in front of me and I'm driving and the red light has changed to green and they haven't moved yet, I like to say, wake up, Australia.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I've brought. I'm bringing that to America.

[A]

And it's cruel because Australia is asleep at that moment.

[B]

Oh, my God, you're so right.

[A]

Yeah, it's cruel.

[B]

Marty. Save me from myself. What are you trying to figure out?

[A]

Everything. Everything swirls around this two and a half year old who is just laying waste to our lives. I've talked before about Lila's brutal strength. Like the child is uncannily powerful, right? Always has been. And now she's. I'm not only seeing the strength, I'm seeing how she filters it through her two and a half year old filter of. You would filter things through a filter of perception and how she experiences what we do for her. Because yesterday I was sitting. We'd gone into the bathroom. This is a big, exciting adventure. When she was born, I decided she could not come in my bathroom and that.

[B]

Accept that.

[A]

Then I would allow it on certain occasions and it would become special and ritualized.

[B]

I just need to say. She doesn't mean like in the toilet.

[A]

No, no, no, no. Just like, you know, there's a vanity with drawers and, you know, makeup and brushes and things. So she found some necklaces that were tangled. So I was sitting on the bathroom floor untangling the necklaces. Tender moment with my child. You know, I'm down at her level and all of a sudden I just.

[B]

The untangling necklaces, you just say it as though, you know, weaving baskets. Yeah.

[A]

And suddenly I. I get a vicious blow to the head. Sorry. Our producer's not gonna be happy with that. I wasn't happy. It was a solid thunk. And I look up and there's Lila with a hairbrush. And she says, okay, Muffy, time to do your hair. Wham. And it hits me again. Bam. Bam. And I start to just savagely beaten about the head and face. And she's like, to hold still my feet. I just need to do your hair. Wham. And then she goes, we're just going to get it out of your eyes. Bam. My hair is not long enough to go in my eyes. But this is what she's been subjected to as kind of a reenactment of a trauma. So then by the time she's done, my hair is sticking out in A billion directions. And I have black eyes. And she's like, that. Isn't that better?

[B]

What I love about it is, oh, there's so many things I love about this story. One raised by lesbians. Like, clearly, we're trying to convey to her at all times, I'm not trying to make your hair look good. I'm just trying to get it out of your eyes. For God's sake, don't judge me on the quality of the ponytail that I am now constructing. Like, that's for sure. But then I also love that there's, like, a real psychopathic kind of vibe there where she's, like, hitting you and going, don't worry. I'm just getting it out of your eyes.

[A]

And I think that's how this is probably how she experiences the world. She's this tiny person, and we come at her with objects and, like, randomly strike her in the head and say, we're getting it out of your eyes. Yeah.

[B]

It's funny because I apologize a lot and I thank a lot, and that's working out well with Lila. On the whole, she's pretty good with her manners and her pleases and thank yous. Pretty good.

[A]

Yeah. I have to say, at one point, she said, sorry, Muffy, and then hit me again.

[B]

Well, this is what I was going to say is that. Because what generally happens is, like, okay, so I'm getting her undressed here in the bath, and, like, the. The top that I'm pulling off over her head is a little bit too tight, and it, like, clips her nose. And I go, oh, sorry. And so it's like she now mimics that when she's a little bit hurt. She goes, I'm sorry. And I' I'm like, oh, what have I done to her? She's apologized. She's terrified of me. She's apologizing for me hurting her.

[A]

This child is no shrinking violet. This child is just learning lines and, like, running amok. There is no. When she says, oh, sorry, she's saying to herself, far be it for me to do anything to discomfort you. You deserve to feel good all the time.

[B]

Oh, well, that's good. That's all right, then.

[A]

It's good.

[B]

It's good.

[A]

But she just be careful when you're around her not to, because she can hurt you.

[B]

How's your head today?

[A]

They're tender spots. Yeah. Patches of missing hair, but it's out of my eyes.

[B]

It's out of your eyes.

[A]

That's actually some of it ripped out and went into my eyes. It was just. That's how she experiences us.

[B]

Yeah. There we go. If you are enjoying Bewildered, there are a few ways you can express your support for us. You can subscribe to the POD or follow it, depending on your app. It's a great way to get us in front of more people. And as always, we love a little rate and review action, especially when the reviews are kind and the ratings are high, strangely. And finally, if you really want to go to the next level with Bewildered, check out our online community, wildercommunity.com we'll see you there. All right, so let's move on to today's topic, which is today we're going to do a Bewild Files episode. We are loving these. We've got so many awesome questions from you all. Be wild Files for new listeners are the types of Bewildered episodes where we talk about what you're trying to figure out. Because it's not all about us.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's not all about us. If you want to figure out how to do this and send your question, you go to rowanmangan.com bewildered and then you'll find out how to do it. And there's a very specific way to do it. Yeah, but today we're talking to. Well, we're not. Oh, yeah, we're talking to everyone, but we're listening. First we listen, then we talk to.

[A]

Good plan.

[B]

To Josephine. So let's hear Josephine's question. Okay.

[C]

I'm trying to figure out why I have so much resistance towards doing things that are actually good for me and that bring me actual joy. And because my initial feeling towards those things is usually dread, I have to really force myself to do them. And I wonder if it's really supposed to be that way. I always feel happier and lighter after having done them. But fighting with the resistance every day is tiring. And it makes me feel unable to trust my instincts, given that they're telling me not to do the things that are actually good for me. Do you have any advice on this? Thank you.

[A]

What a brilliant question.

[B]

Such a brilliant question.

[A]

And we can totally relate to this.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Today I have physical therapy, which is like my favorite thing. It has made me so much healthier and stronger. And when, as the time comes close to go to physical therapy, I will do everything I can to not go in there. I driving along, I will consider turning and doing so many other things because part of me seems to be afraid of physical therapy. I seem loath to go to physical therapy, even though I love it and it makes me Feel good. Same with writing. Same with art projects. Same with, like, parties. Like, no, don't make me. And then I go, and it's good, you know?

[B]

Yeah. I should have really thought about this more when I was in my phase of, like, pulling my pants down in front of new strangers, because I dreaded it. But I think maybe at that time, it might have been a good time to actually listen to my instincts. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Just. You could get. No pun, work.

[B]

Oh, I could. Let me tell you. Yeah. But writing is such a huge one for me with this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's. Oh, I don't want to. I don't want to. What I was saying to Marty, it's like the. You don't want to get in the bath, but you don't want to get out of the bath. That. I mean, that, to me, is like the classic sort of thing. And anyway.

[A]

But what does the question have that we all have? Do we all have the don't want to get in the bath, don't want to get out of the bath.

[B]

I believe it to be universal.

[A]

I have. Don't want to go to sleep, don't want to get up.

[B]

Yeah, same. Same principle. Same principle. So what does the culture say about it?

[A]

Well, I think the cultural message is like, this should not be an issue for you. Like, you like it. You know, it's good for you. Just do it. Why would you not? Are you crazy? And yet I think everybody has this ambivalence.

[B]

And you know what I mean? Who knows what it is for Josephine? Like, I don't know. But I. It did strike me, listening to her question, that the culture assumes when we are having to switch activities. Right. I have to start this new thing. It's really good for me. I know it is. But the culture says you are unitary. You are one thing. You are same all time. You come out of factory ready to go, batteries included. And I don't think we are unitary in that way. And so I feel like maybe part of what I struggle with. You struggle with, Josephine struggles with is. And by the way, physical therapy is a terrible example because that's just objectively a horrible thing to do.

[A]

But that's.

[B]

I hate it. Whatever. But, yeah, I think maybe what we're all struggling with is, is that when you have to switch from one kind of self.

[A]

Right.

[B]

To another self, like, so that. That's really difficult, that there's an inertia in us that wants to stay with what we're doing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And it's hard to go into a different State. It's hard to take off your clothes. Sorry for always talking about taking off my clothes and in the cold bathroom and get in the bath, even though you know you're going to be warm soon, it's still hard to take off your clothes.

[A]

Yes, it's very, very hard. And I want to say something about the word inertia. Sometimes people mistake it for inertness, like just laziness and lying there. But inertia literally means you go. A body, when set in motion, will continue in the same direction until acted on by an equal and opposite force.

[B]

So the only thing I ever learned in physics, my friends and I every such idiots. But I have to just say this because some of them will be listening and they will remember this, is that whenever we would like pull up in a car. Slee that forward a bit.

[A]

God damn you. Inertia.

[B]

Every time.

[A]

Life is kind of like slamming up against the car dashboard over and over and over because we do have different parts. I've talked before about ifs internal family systems therapy, which is this brilliant system. It works so well therapeutically.

[B]

Also known as part psychology.

[A]

Yeah, there are different fields of parts psychology. And the whole idea is that every part of you we've always known there are different parts of us. Right. But that every part of you is a whole and complete personality that desert. Not that you have dissociation, but like if you want to talk to the part of you that loves to cuddle in bed, it's literally a different person from the one who wants to jump out of bed and get going with the day. Drop your pants and get the oatmeal.

[B]

Yeah. So I think we're trying to switch from one part to another, like you say. And like. So for me, like I might be in admin, tick things off my list. Doop doo. Achieving, achieving. And then I have to go into writing, which is such a different Persona and also has to like gets dopamine from really different things. Like it's slow and it's, it's nuanced and, and yeah, subtle. And admin is like. And it's done. The bill is paid.

[A]

And admin check is like, look at all the deal for me and I'm making over here. Why would you want to go there?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that. And so anyway, I mean I have. So I have like, yeah, the writer kind of part and I have admin chick. Then I have this other part and I mean, you're right, they're so distinct. So distinct because we talk about my hestia self like my goddess of the hearth self, like, which I haven't been inhabiting very much lately. It's interesting. Like, I. But it's like the part of me that cooks hearty, lovely food for my family and. And is very like. And likes to clean up and create and buys flowers and puts them on the table.

[A]

And the funny thing is, when she's up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You talk like she's always up.

[B]

Oh, I know. Oh, they like.

[A]

Oh, I love it. Like, I had a. I had a client once who. A famous, famous person who. I had lunch with her and then the next week she was like, remember the times we used to have? And I was like, you mean lunch? But she'd extended it into this long relationship. And you do the same with Hestia. Oh, I just love all the cooking we've done here. This is a cruel thing to say, but you had to have certain items of cookware when we moved here years.

[B]

Ago that you have literally never used. How dare you. I've used them twice.

[A]

No, the tagine.

[B]

Oh, the tagine was purely decorative. And I must say, it's a lovely piece of our studio.

[A]

It's. Right now. It's part of the studio.

[B]

Yeah, the tagine hasn't got a lot of.

[A]

Podcast chick came out and said, up yours, Hestia. I'm taking the tagine.

[B]

So true. It's so true.

[A]

You're literally stealing from each other.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. What are your parts? Tell me about your. Just for example. Like, I know there's loads, but just.

[A]

For example, the writer self is like this manic, focused, gum chewing, like, disciplined. And then there's.

[B]

Can I say something really interesting? What? I don't know if you're gonna like me saying this, but when Marty was writing her last book, she. She's like a. She's a very weird person, you guys. I don't know if you've checked this out yet. One of the things she likes to do is know her PH levels of her body. And she's always trying to get more alkaline. More alkaline. More alkaline. I won't talk about how she gets the readings. It's not relevant. But when she was writing her last book, she. You would like when you would write and you were always complaining and grumpy about it. Oh, you hate struggling through. And you would go into your little room and get your little reading of. And you would be more alkaline than any dietary or anything.

[A]

Once I'm in it. Once I'm in it, it's like swimming through a deep ocean and I don't even need to breathe. It's like.

[B]

But your body.

[A]

Yeah, my body loved it too. That's what Josephine was saying. These are good things. These are nature, but they're human nature. So it kind of goes beyond just what an animal would do. There are things that we can do that like, deeply engross us that an animal could not do. So it's nature, but human. But then there is. I'm writing this book right now about anxiety and how, like the opposite of his creativity in some ways. So I thought, I gotta walk my talk. I'm gonna do all the instructions that I give in the book for enhancing your creative side. So I used to draw and paint all the time when I was a kid. I was like, oh, I haven't done it for years. And I got. I thought, I'm just going to do this to see if it works, guys.

[B]

Sorry, folks. I have to say she's being very modest here. She's a very accomplished painter and artist. It's not like she last picked up a Crayola when she was nine. She's, you know.

[A]

Well, when I. It's a. It was a really good nature culture thing because the reason I kind of slowed down and stopped is like, oh, do we need a painting for the wall? Oh, could I sell that? Oh, that could be the COVID of a book. I was always using it for something, but this was just. I'm going to open up my creative side and that what I draw or paint doesn't even matter. I just keep stacking them up. But it's been a very weird month.

[B]

I'll say.

[A]

Artist self is not going to stop.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, was like letting a bear out of a cage. She. I've been getting up at 4 in the morning and painting like 12 hours a day whenever I get a chance. I like, it's. I went to a therapist to talk about. It's really been severe. And it's because artist part was starved for art, but. And she don't like to change states. Oh, no, she doesn't. And then. But then somebody will like call for a session or whatever. I'll go online and do a group call. And I'm completely obsessed with the other person. All I want to do is understand their psychology. And then artist self doesn't even know their name. It's quite disconcerting in some ways.

[B]

That's really fascinating. It's really fascinating because it feels like to me, like that there's just something in our programming. I don't think it's wrong or right. But there's just a quirk in our programming that says, well, like inertia. It's our physics. Right. That whatever state we're in, we prefer to stay in it. And that seems kind of natural to me. Like, you know, like the, the thing with toddlers, like everything, everything is parenting. When you've got a toddler.

[A]

Yeah. Or when you are a toddler, which I am at heart, your artist self, really. Oh my God. Lila had to say to me the other day because I'm doing watercolor and the best part of your body to judge how, how moist the brush is, which is really important is to touch it to your lips. And I was sitting there painting and my 2 year old came up and said, oh Muffy, don't eat your paint. Like I like it. Go away. Anyway. Yes, I am a toddler and it's all toddlers and, and they have tantrums at transition times.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like it's.

[B]

Any parent of a toddler will tell you that you get them in a thing and that so much of managing your toddler's insanity, I'm just going to say it is preparing them for transitions. Managing how to make it as easy as possible to go through transitions. And it's interesting because, like why do you think that is?

[A]

Well, I actually think it's an adaptation that makes us able to learn intensely like more than other species. And we have this mutation called neoteny that is present in other animals only when they're babies and they learn very, very rapidly and then they just stop. We have that and a mutation in our genes never turns it off. So we're curious like toddlers our whole lives. And speaking of curiosity, I was. You have this genius way which I think is transferable to adults of getting Lila out of a tantrum. A transition tantrum. So she. And she is a very dramatic child as well as very powerful. So she throws her mighty power against the floor and Ro just quietly picks up a book and starts reading aloud to herself about, oh, I don't know, the gruffalo.

[B]

Hi, I'm Larry and this is my book.

[A]

Yeah. And just softly reading and Lila's and checking to see how you're responding. And then she's finally like, oh, the curiosity pulls her into the state of wanting to be reading books.

[B]

I need to say that it's not. These aren't full on tantrums. These are more like protests because when she's in a full on tantrum, I could be, I could be reading you know, it doesn't matter. Like, if she's lost in it, she's lost in it. But so the. The analogy only goes so far.

[A]

Yes, there are tantrums in there and there is drama.

[B]

Yes, it helps a lot with drama. And, you know, with our own drama.

[A]

Too, potentially so interesting, because I have a friend who is not a two and a half year old. They're in their 60s now, I think, and used to want to be invited to things. And I would invite them to things, and they would not come. At the very last moment, they would cancel. Very, very reluctant to actually to something. Always asking to be invited but never coming. And finally I just got frustrated and started saying, you're not really invited, but here are the things we're going to do. And they'd be like, oh, yeah, I can't come, but what you're going to be, oh, really? You're going to, like, track bears? Okay, all right. And then they would say no, and then they would show up. It was exactly the same thing. Triggering curiosity actually is a way of appealing to human nature. It's a powerful force. Maybe curiosity is the force that is powerful enough to switch the inertia of a state.

[B]

Oh, that's interesting. So if I. I have to write a novel, and right at the beginning of it, it's not, you know, I'm not really getting paid it yet. So how can I, like, trigger my curiosity about it? I'm trying to think, how do I apply that? The curiosity or the place you have to make.

[A]

You have to have an unanswered question. You have to have something go on in the very first page that's like, what? Right? Yeah, like the. The protagonist makes some oatmeal, drops your pants for the babysitter, and you never explain why.

[B]

I'm starting to think, actually on that, that it might have been deliberate by Lila, just as a stunt. She might have just been like, hey, look at this.

[A]

Now that you mention it, it sounds very much like her.

[B]

It does, doesn't it? All right, well, let's come back to this. Let's try to figure out how we come to our senses on this topic right after this.

[A]

So here we are again, talking about how to switch states to doing things that are good for you and you like, but you don't want to do them at first.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was so interesting because we always say, okay, what's the cultural story then? What's. What does nature do? And it's like, what would a lion do? What would a tree do? And this was different.

[B]

Yeah, it was different.

[A]

And we realized that there is a nature to us that is. It really is genuinely unique. Yeah.

[B]

And Marty used this phrase. Maybe you've heard it before, human nature. And I was like, oh, my God. Human nature. Right. And that is exactly where this falls. Because it's not. A lion won't behave this way.

[A]

No.

[B]

Tree won't behave this way. Hard to imagine. I know. Mind you, trees are terrible at changing.

[A]

No, they're not. They're like winter cold. Ooh, I'm getting undressed. No problem. Drop their leaves.

[B]

No. They complain about it.

[A]

Oh, well.

[B]

And they're slow.

[A]

Only in our time frame. Anyway. The reason I would say this is human nature. We don't want to give the. Out of saying, well, of course, my mother did this or that. It's her human nature. No, no, no. To be human nature in my book, it has to be something that's true across cultures. So it has to be. Any human would pretty much do this with a working set of human psychology. So one of the things that I think is universally true for all cultures is this reluctance to change states, having to be.

[B]

It's a big claim that everyone. Yeah.

[A]

And the other thing is, the cultural response is usually just do it. Like, do what I say, do what the culture says. And I do believe it's universally true that when you shove someone into something, they start to shove back. We don't like to be controlled or pushed.

[B]

It's like the instinct to, you know, like to pull back. Like if someone. There's a. There's some word for this. It's like an evolutionary thing. If you're, you know, like, tug of war. Like if. If. Like what a dog does. The dog has the same thing. When you fight with a dog, if you pull, they pull back. And that's so interesting. That's a. Like some sort of. I don't know. It's instinct, and it's. I feel like it's the same thing. It's like, if you push me, I'm gonna dig in my heels.

[A]

Yeah. It's a terrible, sad example, but it's still interesting to look at the wild boy, the wild child of Avignon. Yeah. He was this poor kid who was probably literally raised by wolves. Like, something fed him for a few years. But he was cognitively really impaired from growing up in the woods and probably, like, eating rocks or whatever. But a psychologist adopted him, and he didn't know language. He had never been socialized. But when they tried to force him to do something that he, that wasn't at its usual time. When he was used to it, he would fight like crazy like that. Resistance to being shoved was really wide awake in him, even though he had very little socialization. And I just, everywhere I've been in the world, I've seen the same dynamic. So I think it's human nature.

[B]

Yeah. And you know, we, we need to only look to the toddler community.

[A]

The toddler community. We really want to reach podcast to the toddler community.

[B]

Our friends in the toddler community. You know who you are.

[A]

Bam. Got it out of your eyes. But the point, the takeaway from that is if you want to switch states in accordance with your nature, don't be mean or pushy with yourself. It does not work.

[B]

Yeah, don't do it. Don't think about self kindness as softy, softy la la. Pathetic. No, it doesn't work. It's ineffective. Just be nice to yourself because it's more effective.

[A]

Yeah. So it's not like, oh, I'll do anything you say. It's like, honey, we're going to do this and I understand you don't want to. It's that kind of position that you take vis a vis yourself. And I think you have to prepare yourself. This is actually good psychological research on change, that there has to be a contemplation and a preparation phase before people actively go into a different, into a transition. So you need to be prepared psychologically a little bit ahead of time.

[B]

So now we're applying, applying this to ourselves. Like, I have to go write on my novel for an hour.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't feel like it. So I'm, I have to, so, so I have to prepare in five minutes. It's time to turn off the television, Lila. And then we're going to be going upstairs and you're going to be getting in the bath.

[A]

I like to give myself a little reward before I do something. People want it to be reserved to, to after. No, no kidding. I'm like, I, this is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna paint for 12 hours and then I'm going to do something else for five minutes. No, really, I have to say, look, I will let myself, like, listen to an audiobook for five minutes. Lie down and listen to an audiobook. And then I'll be ready to switch into a coach mode and go on zoom and do things and whatever. And if I just go, if, if you come in and say, marty, have you checked your calendar? And I have to switch right away, it is murder.

[B]

Yeah. I know, because you're the one I murder. Yeah. Yeah. You are not pleasant at these times.

[A]

But actually, it's called action priming. It. You psychologically prime the transition. Like, okay, we're gonna. Yes, five more minutes of this or an hour of that, or. Yeah, two weeks vacation, and then it's back to the grindstone at the no Pond bar.

[B]

I like to reward myself before, during, and after. I find that that's the maximal way to reward myself.

[A]

No, that's not far wrong, because. Okay, here's the thing. There's an underlying thing in Josephine's question that we've already pretty much dispensed with, which is we only do things that are rewarding. Like, there are very few things that we try to do that are not intrinsically rewarding and good for us.

[B]

We specifically. Or we generally.

[A]

The two of us and Karen and basically everybody in our house except Lila. She's got a job to do, and it's brutal. No, but. So you are. You prime your action before and you give something yourself, something enjoyable. Then when you switch in, if it's good for you and you like it, it is enjoyable when you're there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then afterward, it feels good and you give yourself a reward. So it is before, during, and after.

[B]

So what we need to look at then, it seems to me, is just how to ease that period before. Because Josephine's accepted. You know, I feel so good. And I think she even means during to an extent. And after as well. It's the starting. So we've just got to. So we're gonna tell it. Tell that part ahead of time. The part that you're in at the moment. Right. Okay. We're gonna be doing some writing soon. It's all right. Okay.

[A]

Be respectful of it. You know, it reminds me of Frodo in Lord of the Rings, trying to get the ring to throw it into the crevasse at Mordor. And he's gone through, like, 8,000 pages of adventures and he can't do it. He gets closer and closer. The ring is heavier and heavier. And when he's supposed to. Spoiler alert. When he's supposed to throw the ring into the crevasse, he puts it on his finger instead. He just can't let it go. And then something else happens that I won't spoil. But the ring goes into the crevasse, people. Anyway. It's brutal. And it gets worse and worse and worse and worse as he goes. And I think what we need to do is know that it's going to get the inertia is going to push back harder and harder. So we need a transitional activity. You were saying this? A transitional activity that's fun. That leads us toward the new thing.

[B]

Right. But I don't know what that would be. I just think it sounds like a good idea.

[A]

No, you do this. Remember your fun machines?

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

So that's.

[B]

But that's not transitional. That's. I guess that's like me tempting myself towards the thing. It's a way to reward myself before, during, after.

[A]

Right.

[B]

During and after. So one of the things I used to do is there. I don't know if it still exists, but there used to be an app that you could write in that made your keyboard sound all clacky, like a typewriter. And it really makes you want to.

[A]

Write because you're like.

[B]

Yeah. So I. You know, I actually wrote about this a while ago in my. In my Wild Adventures substack. I wrote a thing about morning self and how I trick my morning self into writing by setting things up the night before and, like, putting the coffee on. So it's right there, and there's a lovely big chair, and I make sure the chair's all clear. See?

[A]

And the Hestia part of you is doing that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So she comes up.

[B]

They can help each other.

[A]

We cannot. We're a community that is suddenly now helping each other do things instead of in opposition.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I want to do this. You want to do that? No, I'll do this for you. I'll make that more fun. And then you'll do that for me. It'll make things more fun.

[B]

Yeah. It's interesting because it's like, it's so easy to think of ways to punish yourself for not doing it. Like when I said that thing about a writing app, another one came my head, which used to have a thing where you would be writing, and if you stopped for too long, it would start deleting what you'd already written. And I'm like, that's what we think we have to do to make ourselves do things.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

But what we actually have to do is make it go clickety clackity, clickety click.

[A]

I know. I wrote a book once about, like, being healthy and fit and whatnot and don't ever read it. And I talked about how to reward yourself. And I even mentioned that in Experiments with Animals, reward as a reinforcement for behavior is 51 times more powerful than punishment. So you need 51 sticks for every carrot. Just use carrots. Right? So I was like, set up rewards for yourself. And I had so many people after that book came out, said, I have trouble coming, coming up with rewards and punishments that work well enough. And I'm like, there's no punishment in that. There's no. No, it's stupid. Don't use it. It doesn't work. But culturally, we are very dedicated to punishment. When we don't do what we think we're supposed to do, it doesn't work. It's counterproductive. It reminds me when I was writing that book, I wrote a whole chapter about a pig learning to push a shopping cart without ever even having it demonstrated. And the trainers just would. They put a pig in a room with a shopping cart. And then at first, just when it came close to the shopping cart, they would throw it like a kibble and it started hanging out around the shopping cart. Then they. It had to touch the shopping cart before it got kibble, then put one leg up and after a couple weeks it was just strutting around the room, pushing the shopping cart and collecting.

[B]

Do you know about clicker training?

[A]

I have heard them click.

[B]

Yeah. So it's. You use it. You probably use it with a pig. I'd be surprised if they didn't actually, because it's such a good way of doing that, is that you click at the moment. They do the right thing because you can't make the food happen at the exact second, but you have a little clicker and second. Like they use it with horses a lot as well. They can really understand it and they get the reward really quickly after. I know I actually had one.

[A]

Could we, like, do clicker training on each other?

[B]

Oh, my God, yes. I mean, the clicker itself is a reward.

[A]

Anything that clicks, like the clickety, clickety clack. I think clicking there's a reason that's a word we talk about, just clicks. For me, I think clicking is the answer.

[B]

I think we've. I think we finally figured it out.

[A]

Wow. I'm going to take that to physical therapy later because actually, you know what.

[B]

Else is the same? Playing pool, playing snooker. The. The sound that the balls make as they click together is inherently rewarding.

[A]

It is. But I can't make it happen. Right. And that makes me want to kill myself with a broken pool cue.

[B]

But happen. Right. If you can just make them click, if that's your goal, the clicking.

[A]

Don't worry about the holes.

[B]

Don't worry about the little holes.

[A]

Anyway, this is getting very complicated because if you just had a clicker, that would be fine, but if you're setting up a lot. A billiard table in my office where I'm writing so that you can make a click every time I write something good. That's just a lot of work. And we're gonna have to incentivize ourselves to get into that mode really hard.

[B]

Starting to sound like the Google offices.

[A]

Like the snooker boards everywhere. Limber up, bro. Take your pool of cue. I'm gonna write now.

[B]

Yeah, well, I, you know, I. I love it. And I also think that, you know, we can use each other and other people to. To do this. I. One of the things I try to do with. With writing is there's, like a writer's community that I'm a part of, and they. They do this thing that's from 8am to 9am every day, my time zone. And I just turn up for that. I log on to Zoom. Everyone's muted out. You have a little chat at the beginning.

[A]

Hi.

[B]

And then clickety, clickety, clickety clackity, clickity clackity clack for an hour. And every now and again, like, honestly, I just open it up and just look at their little faces. Everyone's still working.

[A]

Yeah, still working.

[B]

All right. Me too.

[A]

I guess. That's really good human nature usage. Because we are social primates, and social primates do things together. And even. Even those of us who are introverted and answer not anthropomorphic and not androgynous.

[B]

Misanthropic.

[A]

Misanthropic. Yeah. Even us. We like doing things when there's a group of people doing it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It feels easier somehow.

[B]

It does.

[A]

So, yeah. Somewhere between that and exotic animal training, I hire. Pay money. Pay somebody money to show up and make you do it.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

I'm gonna go in later today, and the goddess of physical therapy is gonna make me do things that you have never imagined. No one has ever imagined the things that this woman makes me do.

[B]

Wow. I think we're gonna have to have a conversation. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, it like it sounds. I don't know how she thinks this up. Like, you. How can you do nine different things to my body that I've never done before? And she can isolate the one muscle I've never used in my life, the one. And I have to adopt the weirdest positions to get this to happen. And I'm just like, I. Oh, Bridget, I love this how I hate you. It's very, very conflicted. She's a goddess. I can't.

[B]

So, listeners, if your partner suddenly starts talking about physical therapy, you might want to have a discussion about bdsm. Dominatrixes. Dominatrices.

[A]

Dominatrices. Nerd sex. Could I have two dominatrices, please?

[B]

Well, it sounds like you're doing just fine with one. Well, some of us do too. Yeah, that's okay. I'm. I'm a little worried about that. But as far as Josephine goes, I really think that that and. And for all of us as well, if we have this issue, it's not your issue. That's a whole different thing. It's a whole different show. Transitions moving into things that are good for us and we enjoy. If that's hard for you. Such a great first world problem, isn't it? Then, like actually using creativity to make the transition itself fun. Like focus on that transition moment instead of now I'm in this state, I will be in this state. How do we bridge the two states?

[A]

And being respectful and loving toward the part that doesn't want to stop, instead of saying, you have to stop now, it's like, oh, I so get that you love to paint or that you love to cook with a tagine or whatever it is that. I get it. I totally get it. You're going to get to do it later. And now we're going to do something else fun. Look. Click. Clickety click. I used to go when I was writing that book about the shopping cart pig. I thought, this is a great idea. And I was. I gave myself two weeks to write this book before the deadline. I had other things going on. And so I wrote like 20 hours a day. And I'd be writing at 3 in the morning and my eyes would be all blurry. I'd put the type set up to 90,000 pixels. And then if I finished like a section, I would go to the all night pharmacy and I would buy myself something really shiny pens that lit up, little glitter bows to put in my hair or whatever. And I found that appealing to that part of our nature that likes sparkly objects. Weirdly worked. I also sent myself cards congratulating myself. And here's how weird it was when I got them. They made me so happy.

[B]

So you trick yourself. How did your physical therapist feel about this?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Did you? You didn't get punished at all for it, did you?

[A]

Well, depends on what you call punishment. I'll just say this. She handed me a cup of coffee and a bowl of oatmeal. It's just human nature.

[B]

All right, so if that hasn't sorted out all your confusion, we can change.

[A]

States now stop podcasting.

[B]

I don't want to.

[A]

I don't either. We're just gonna have to keep them here forever.

[B]

Yeah. This is the podcast that never ends.

[A]

We'll let you guys go though. You folks. We' folks, go and find a shiny object and a lovely transitional trick to get you to your next happy thing and Stay wild.

[B]

We hope you're enjoying Bewildered. If you're in the USA and want to be notified when a new episode comes out, text the word wild to 570-873-0144. We're also on Instagram. Our Handle is Bewildering podcast. You can follow us to get updates, hear funny snippets and outtakes, and chat with other fans of the show. Bewildered is produced by Scott Forster with support from the Brilliant team at mbi. And remember, if you're having fun, please rate and review and stay wild.

[A]

People are always asking me, how did you get into training life coaches? And the answer is backwards. I did it backwards. That is, I didn't set up a program and then look for people to fill it. It's just that so many people were coming to me for coaching that I realized in order to serve the market, I was going to have to train other people. People in my methods. That was decades ago. And now the Wayfinder program contains all my very best wisdom and tools for living, boiled down to their savory essence. Now, if that sounds interesting to you, head on over to MarthaBeck.com and find your way.