Flying Blind

Summary

Podcast Summary: Bewildered

Episode: "Flying Blind"
Hosts: Martha Beck & Rowan Mangan
Date: October 15, 2025

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Overview

In this playful yet profound episode of Bewildered, Martha Beck and Rowan Mangan explore the experience of "flying blind" — navigating a rapidly changing world without the traditional cultural instruments and guidance that once provided a sense of safety and certainty. Drawing from personal stories, mixed metaphors, wit, and wisdom, the hosts discuss how society's instructions often fail us when true change arrives, and how to tap into our deepest inner compass for direction. Themes include living outside of convention, finding safety within, and cultivating the skill of trusting one’s own senses, even when it means "looking weird." As always, the show is laced with humor, storytelling, and a refusal to take transformation too seriously.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Moving House as Metaphor for Bewilderment (00:36–07:45)

• Martha and Rowan open with comic reflections on their new, character-rich home, full of quirks and painted-over oddities — from outlets to (shockingly) a dead mouse (03:14).
• Rowan's mother’s arrival is met with messy chaos and the excitement of bear tracks, highlighting the reality of being thrown into unfamiliar, unpredictable situations.
• This move becomes a living metaphor for "flying blind": encountering unplanned turns, improvising, and dealing with the unknown.

Quote:

• "The bewilderment is so thick, you could, like, cut it out with cookie cutters and bake it up for strangers."
  — Rowan (01:50)

2. Setups for Flying Blind (07:45–15:11)

• Rowan and Martha briefly detour into sports injuries and the peculiar interests of her personal trainer, returning to the theme of finding comfort outside the expected and familiar.
• The hosts reflect on the lack of preparation for this episode and announce that, even in producing their podcast, they're "flying blind" — drawing a clear analogy to everyday life transitions where the cultural instruction manual simply isn't available.

Quote:

• "What we do not have this time is help... So today's podcast is called Flying Blind."
  — Rowan (15:02)

3. The Flying Blind Metaphor Unpacked (15:23–24:19)

• The main metaphor is introduced: life as a cockpit, with an instrument panel (society’s rules, expectations, and instructions) that suddenly stops working or is "painted over."
• Rowan riffs on being forced out of the culture’s safe paths (standard education, job, marriage, etc.), highlighting the anxiety and disorientation of going off-script.

Quote:

• "All the instruments are what? They're gone. They're in Cyrillic."
  — Martha (16:23)
• "The instrument panel is everything you've been taught culturally, socially, since you were little about how to fly the plane, how to fly your life."
  — Rowan (17:00)

4. When Cultural Instruments No Longer Work (24:19–30:07)

• Discussion turns toward how traditional structures (jobs, authority, government) are themselves shaky or crumbling. Even conforming doesn’t guarantee safety anymore.
• Marty (Martha Beck) recounts observing how, especially during major social change, people tend to rush toward "big, solid structures" for safety — only to find these structures are vulnerable.
• The metaphor of the 2011 Sendai tsunami is introduced: people seeking refuge in seemingly sturdy buildings that ultimately are swept away.

Quote:

• "You will never be given instructions on ways to live without the structure."
  — Martha (24:19)
• "The problem right now is that all the parental figures are either falling apart or they're diabolical... you will be cared for if you conform. It's a broken promise."
  — Martha (24:54, 25:03)

5. Tsunami vs. Surfing: Two Responses to Change (30:07–34:13)

• Martha describes her emotional response to watching real videos of the Sendai tsunami: witnessing people’s faith in structures literally washed away.
• By (apparent) YouTube accident, she finds contrasting footage of a surfer riding a massive, "rogue" wave, who, stripped of safety gear, chooses to ride and embrace the chaos rather than run from it.
• This becomes a pivotal metaphor: in a world ruled by change, safety lies not in clinging to crumbling conventions, but in shedding unnecessary baggage, meeting the wave naked, and learning to ride.

Quote:

• "The safest thing to do when you are in a world governed by change is to strip down... Go out naked with a board and deal with the change. Dance with the change. Ride the change. Find joy and a thrill in the absolute terror."
  — Martha (33:44)

6. Practicing Flying Blind (34:13–42:28)

• Rowan shares stories of "voluntarily flying blind" through solo travel, improvising in strange places, and the skills developed through such experiences — including the lighthearted tale of navigating a narrow Indian street, a cow, and a surprise encounter with Australian celebrity Andrew Denton.
• They discuss the unexpected positive synchronicities ("weird stuff happens") that come from stepping off the mapped path.

Quote:

• "You do get very relaxed in fly blind situations."
  — Martha (38:52)
• "When you do go into the fly blind zone, weird stuff happens, right? Synchronicities. We're getting woo woo already."
  — Martha (41:12)

7. How to Navigate Without External Instruments: The Inner Compass (43:04–54:16)

• Martha shares her process after leaving the Mormon church: explicitly learning to pay attention to the "granular sensations" of her body as a guide when external roadmaps no longer applied.
• They explain the practice of the "body compass" — noticing relaxation vs. tension, expansion vs. contraction, when considering choices.
• Rowan brings up her training and personal discoveries of how subtle, individualized these signals can be (e.g., naming her feeling of "right" as "Tingly Cathedral"; Martha’s is "ton of bricks").
• Martha references Malcolm Gladwell’s Blink, noting the physiological data that supports the body's subconscious wisdom about good and bad choices long before the conscious mind can catch up.

Quotes:

• "My body was actually incredibly intelligent...I would get pain, like real systemic pain, organs starting to break down, and then I'd make a different decision, and suddenly I had energy and less pain."
  — Martha (44:00)
• "When you're making a decision that is wrong for you...there will be tension in the body. When you make a move toward something that is right for you...there will be loosening in the body, relaxation, opening."
  — Martha (51:44)

8. Trusting the Process — Learning as You Go (53:15–54:16)

• Small choices, practiced daily, help develop the skill of navigating without external rules.
• Over time, this practice leads to increased confidence, adaptability, and the ability to respond intuitively to change.

Quote:

• "After a while, for a while, it's like, damn, I wish the instrument panel was still working. And then after a while you're like, no, this'll do, this'll do. And then you're like, oh, this is gonna take me to a new place."
  — Martha (52:17)

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Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• Painted-over mouse as metaphor (04:06)
  • "She painted over... a dead mouse. I hope he was dead at the time." — Rowan
• Rowan’s sports injury musings (08:48)
  • "Sports are bad. Someone makes their body go in a weird way. Well, what my personal trainer did tell me was that he loves that..." — Rowan
• "Instrument panel" explainer (17:00)
• Sendai tsunami story (25:51)
• Surfer Mike Parsons on the rogue wave (31:20–33:44)
• Rowan’s "Tingly Cathedral" (51:54)
  • "The feeling of the absolute spot on... I called it Tingly Cathedral." — Rowan
• Martha on building the muscle of trusting yourself (53:03)
  • "...you're balancing and adjusting continuously. But you trust your instrument, which is now your body, and your intuition, and your emotions, and everything connected to it, your spirituality, all of that."

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:36 – Personal chaos as metaphor for bewilderment
• 07:45 – Tangents about sports, injuries, and learning from them
• 15:23 – Introduction of the "flying blind" metaphor
• 24:19 – Why the instruments of culture fail us in times of change
• 25:51 – Martha’s narrative of the Sendai tsunami
• 31:20 – The rogue wave surfing video and its lesson
• 34:13 – Voluntarily practicing "flying blind" via travel
• 43:04 – How to use "body compass" as authentic inner guidance
• 49:10 – Malcolm Gladwell's "red deck" example from Blink
• 51:44 – Martha’s universal generalization: tension vs. opening as inner guide
• 53:03 – The cumulative effect of daily small choices

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Conclusion: How to Stay Wildly Bewildered

Martha and Rowan close the episode with encouragement: By practicing small acts of trusting your own body and instincts—instead of defaulting to culture’s failing instructions—you become resilient, agile, and more ready for a world of accelerating change. Rather than striving for safety through conformity, the path to true safety lies in embracing your own nature, one sense and one step at a time… and finding some joy and laughter along the way.

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"This could be fun. And that exact feeling is how we Stay Wild."
— Rowan (54:16)

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For More

Follow Bewildered on Instagram (@bewilderedpodcast), subscribe for notifications, or check out their community at WilderCommunity.com.

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(All direct quotes are faithfully attributed by speaker and timestamp; slightly condensed for clarity where needed.)

Transcript

[A]

Sometimes we're flying blind. Sometimes we have taken a leap that leads us to feel like we're flying blind. Sometimes circumstance pushes us out of the known into a situation where we're just trying to figure out which direction to go in, how to go forward, how to go forward. And that's what we're talking about.

[B]

Yeah. And what we're talking about today is how to survive. Survive in a world where more and more of the time, you're going to be flying blind because change is accelerating and everything we're used to doing in order to thrive is getting wiped out or totally turned upside down. So in this chaotic environment, how do you navigate? How do you fly blind and be safe? Well, one of the ways you're going to find out. Few things.

[A]

No spoilers.

[B]

Well, I. I have to give one spoiler. This. The way we fly blind row. We mix more metaphors.

[A]

Oh, my God, yes.

[B]

Than I've ever seen two people mix. I mean, we. We. Come on.

[A]

Bit of modesty.

[B]

I mean, but this one. We always do that. But this metaphor stew is going to keep you fed folks for months.

[A]

It really will. And if. If you like actual help as well as metaphors, I think you'll find some here, too. How do we make a path forward that's right for us in a time where there's nothing but change and instability?

[B]

Let's do it.

[A]

Have a listen, and we'll see you on the other side.

[B]

Hi, I'm Martha Beck.

[A]

And I'm Rowan Mangan. And this is another episode of Bewildered, that podcast for people trying to figure it out. Like her, like me.

[B]

We're.

[A]

We're in a new place. It's weird. There's so much to figure out.

[B]

Boy, you wanna get bewildered? Come hang out at our place now. The bewilderment is so thick, you could, like, cut it out with cookie cutters and bake it up for strangers.

[A]

What are you trying to figure out?

[B]

Oh, God, everything. I mean, I'm trying to figure out how to live in a house that has character. I have learned the word. Squalor. No, character. And actually, it's a really beautiful property. But I'm just gonna say the former owner, well, you know, had a very interesting relationship with objects in general and paint especially. Yeah.

[A]

And you have very strong feelings about paint as a painter.

[B]

Very strong feelings, I must say.

[A]

Like, I never knew that to paint a picture like that. Your preferences that way would, like, come across to how a house is painted.

[B]

Yeah. And weirdly, because I'm such a mess of a Human being. My painting drawing is incredibly immaculate to compensate. Oh, my God. When I paint a room, it is freaking immaculate. And this former owner. God rest in peace. We don't know if she's passed away.

[A]

She's fine. She's completely fine. She's fine.

[B]

Wishful thinking in the next town. Wishful thinking. But you know what's happening. I mean, literally anything that was a problem. She just took some weird color of paint and slapped it on.

[A]

Like.

[B]

Got a problem. Is the wood molding.

[A]

Paint it up. Are your power outlets too accessible?

[B]

Paint over them. Do the doorknobs give you trouble? Just hit them with a little splash of paint. But the worst thing is. And I haven't even seen it. You and Karen have seen it. There was a thing she painted over.

[A]

Because we'd been building up all the different things that she would paint over. So it started with power outlets.

[B]

It.

[A]

It moved to, like, really necessary keyholes.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Painted. Clogged with paint.

[B]

And paint as an alternative to cleaning.

[A]

Right. That's what I'm saying.

[B]

This is disgusting. And it's full of trash. So I will just paint over the whole thing. And then you and Karen found in the basement. She painted it over. Speaking of rest in peace. A dead mouse.

[A]

I hope he was dead at the time.

[B]

I know. An entire mouse.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not mouse droppings. Not mouse droppings. Although.

[A]

Yes. Mouse droppings.

[B]

The place is practically a mouse midden. A midden is where rhinos go to poop. They have poop middens. That's what they have. And there are mouse middens in our house. We have a mouse midden house.

[A]

Mari, no one is ever gonna come and visit us. You know that, right? You are not painting a happy picture.

[B]

I'm figuring that out since I'm afraid of people. But I said to you, what color was it that she painted it? And you said, what? And I said, but maybe it's just lying there. Maybe it's a white mouse. And you said, it is now. So that's, like, the happiest thing to come out of that trip to the basement. And I'm trying to figure out how to cope with that and not run screaming into the woods where there are bears. That's right. We heard a bear.

[A]

Yeah. My mother arrived from Australia two nights ago, and as we came out to greet her, we realized that, like paving the path of welcome to our new house was all our trash from the last several days.

[B]

It was festive.

[A]

It was festive.

[B]

So festive.

[A]

Yeah, it was lovely. But it was also Exciting, because a bear.

[B]

A bear had stepped in something liquid and then left clear, dark footprints all around. Medium sized bear. We were thrilled because we're idiots.

[A]

Regular listeners will know that there is nothing Martha Beck likes more than an animal's footprint on something.

[B]

Oh, I love the animal making the footprint equally much, but only because it can produce footprints. So we've got a bear, but we heard it. We were waiting for your mom to arrive. We were just relaxing after a hard day of moving in. And we heard this sound like. And I said, be quiet. Have we ever heard that sound before? Because we've lived in the woods, different places. California, Pennsylvania. Never heard this noise. It was like a very large old man upset because he couldn't find his teeth, you know?

[A]

Yeah, no, very much.

[B]

There's a trash mitten. And so I was very exc. And it just occurred to me, I thought it would be so nice if we could get a cat to deal with the mouse population. The mouse cat.

[A]

To catch the mouse.

[B]

Yeah. She swallowed everything, but I don't know why she swallowed the fly. Sorry. Cultural reference. For those of you who didn't grow up with that song, Google it. But here's what I was thinking. We can't get a cat because the former owner had a cat, which probably saved her from being entirely eaten by mice. And Lila met the cat and immediately put her face fully in the fur of the cat.

[A]

True.

[B]

Cat was very happy.

[A]

Lila looked our four year old for new listeners.

[B]

She looked like she'd gone 50 rounds with Mike Tyson. Her whole face sort of swelled up. So we can't get a cat.

[A]

We can get a bald cat.

[B]

We can get a bear.

[A]

Do bears eat mice?

[B]

Well, they probably scare them. Mm. That's what you need. You need a house bear. We'll have to make the dog door bigger. I'll have to make the doors bigger. Oh, that's hilarious. What are you trying to figure out?

[A]

I am really happy to say that I actually have something that I'm working on trying to figure out that's not moving related. Yeah. Isn't that wild? How dare you.

[B]

How very dare you distract from my project?

[A]

I have many dimensions.

[B]

You have many skills. Like being a warrior princess.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

You have many skills.

[A]

Thank you. Well, this is just something I'm trying to figure out. So let's not, like, over hysterical.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So there is a man that I know, and he is a. He's a personal trainer. He trains me personally. And you know how you, like. Everyone has their, like, special interests. And I learned about his recently, when he told me about it with a lot of enthusiasm, and I found it, like, I went away and I had to try and figure it out for a while.

[B]

Is it illegal?

[A]

No, it's worse, actually, in a strange way. So you know that awful thing that happens in life when someone forces you to watch sports, right?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

You know that. And then inevitably, because sports are bad, someone hurts their body in a really horrifying way that makes your stomach go.

[B]

This is so you. I actually like sports, and I'm quite interested when people get injured. Okay.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I'm. Wow. I'm a real lesbian.

[A]

Okay, listen. Yes.

[B]

What? All right.

[A]

We have a whole conversation we're going to have offline, because that's not. Okay, yeah, okay. Conversation to be had.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay. I know that our listeners are with me. Someone forces you to watch sports. Sports are bad. Someone makes their body go in a weird way. Well, what my personal trainer did tell me was that he loves that.

[B]

What?

[A]

He loves that. And he reckons that his Rain man superpower is that he knows what's happened to their body by watching them. And he's like, yeah, I can tell any injury. I can tell any injury. You just show me an injury. And I'm like, yeah, but then they put it in, like, super slow mo, and you have to watch all the bits going the wrong way. And he's like, yes, I know. And that's how I know the exact tendon that has been ruptured.

[B]

Okay, now you're out of my territory. Yeah, I like it when they get jacuz. Ah, mea culpa, mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa. Yeah, I think that's what you say. It's my fault. It's my fault. It's a Catholic thing, I think.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When I don't like to. I like it when they wince.

[A]

You sadist.

[B]

I don't like it when they scream or. You know, I've seen bones where you're not supposed to see bones.

[A]

You know the ones I like, the soccer ones where they're fake. They fake it. They're like someone touches their thigh and.

[B]

They'Re like.

[A]

My princess thigh. Yeah, yeah, those are super fake. I would actually like to do that.

[B]

See, now. Now we're talking.

[A]

Yeah, Fake injuries. Fine. No problem. Joints going in the direction they're not supposed to go. No, no, I'm sorry. You can. You can train me personally as much as you like. You are never gonna make me watch the joints go backwards.

[B]

Do you ever think that he'll run out of sports injuries and become desperate to feed his addiction. And then he'll train you into a weird position and watch you injured a specific tendon just for the pleasure.

[A]

Do you know what is so funny? So the reason that we got into having this conversation while he trained me personally was that I had to tell him that I'd, like, really badly injured my toe walking down the stairs, that I couldn't. I couldn't do some of the personal traits because I couldn't walk down the stairs. And he's like, yeah, elite athletes, pro footballers. I can tell which tendon. And I'm like, I don't know how I got my toe because it fell on my butt.

[B]

I fell on my butt. Did he know? Did he know the tendons at work?

[A]

He seemed to. He was like. He's like, we're gonna mostly work on the upper body today, so he must have known, right?

[B]

Intellect and character. Did you show him your child?

[A]

No. See, I'm a compassionate soul. I don't think anything should have to see that stuff.

[B]

It was a grievous sight. I will.

[A]

I'm not even gonna. There are even words I could use to describe what happened to my toe that would chill you to the bone. Drew, our new producer. Chill him to the bone.

[B]

Yeah. Well, you know what? You know what I think that we should do? Because it did turn cuss. Your toe did turn all kinds of colors. But you know what I think we could do to help paint over it.

[A]

Actually, that's a really good point at this moment. Nice callback. Nice call back.

[B]

What's our topic?

[A]

Yeah, let's moving on.

[B]

For God's sake, Rowan, get to the point.

[A]

Hi there. I'm Ro, and I'll be your podcaster for today. Do you know how to tip your podcaster? It's actually pretty easy. You can rate our pod with lots of stars, all your stars. You can review it with your best superlatives. You can even subscribe or follow Bewildered, so you'll never miss an episode. Then, of course, if you're ready to go, all in. Our paid online community is called Wilder, A sanctuary for the bewildered. And I can honestly say it's one of the few true sanctuaries online. You can go to wildercommunity.com to check it out. Rate, review, subscribe, join, and you all.

[B]

Have a great day now. Hello, the lovely peoples. This is Marty Martha, inviting you to a free masterclass that I have made called five paths to your purpose. Probably the most common question I get from people Is how do I find my purpose? Why don't I feel that I'm on purpose? Well, it turns out there are certain things you have to do to find your purpose, and I broke them down into five, and I made a little masterclass about it. So if you'd like to see it, just go to marthabeck.compurpose and you will be able to watch it without any charge at all.

[A]

Now, our listeners will never be able to figure out how we came up with this topic, but I'm gonna, like, give them a little thought exercise.

[B]

All right?

[A]

Now, you may notice if you've watched us before on the YouTube vision thing, that we have different surrounds. And what you may not know is that unlike our usual podcasting mode, what we do not have this time is help.

[B]

Help.

[A]

Preparation.

[B]

This always happens. I'm all ready to broadcast and then. Or to record, and I start screaming, help. And Ro has to run down the hall from her room.

[A]

So this time, we have no help. Well, we have actually a lot of help. That's the thing we have. We don't have anything to read from. So today's podcast is called Flying Blind. Ladies and gents, if you're. You'll never guess why. Hi, Marty.

[B]

Hi, Roe.

[A]

Flying blind, eh? That happens in life. Metaphorically.

[B]

No idea what I'm doing. Yes, it has happened.

[A]

Yeah, as a metaphor, but.

[B]

Yeah, as a metaphor. So give us the. Give us the image.

[A]

All right, picture this. I feel like I'm pitching in Hollywood.

[B]

You are.

[A]

Yeah. Picture this. You find yourself. We open on the cockpit of a plane.

[B]

A 7. 47.

[A]

Yeah, a 747 plane, because it's 1986, and we.

[B]

You are the captain, but not me. Whoever's listening. Yeah.

[A]

You're the Hollywood mogul that I'm pitching the film to. Yes.

[B]

Oh, okay. Yeah, of course I am. Yeah.

[A]

You just have to say, keep pitching.

[B]

Keep pitching.

[A]

I like it. Okay. So as you gaze out upon your many, many instruments that you are required to use to fly the plane to its destination.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Everyone's counting on you.

[B]

Everyone.

[A]

The stakes are high.

[B]

Very.

[A]

All the instruments are what? They're gone. They're in Cyrillic.

[B]

They're. They're not working. They're making things. You try to turn left and it goes down or like, all of the instruments are malfunctioning or dead.

[A]

The lady who sold us our house has painted over the windscreen.

[B]

That's the plan. And the instrument panel and the. Yeah, and a dead mouse right there.

[A]

Right there in the middle of the.

[B]

So it's all painted over. And you're up in the sky with this big hunk of metal and it's your job to fly it. And that big hunk of metal in the sky is your life.

[A]

Metaphorically.

[B]

Metaphorically. And the instrument panel is everything you've been taught culturally, socially, since you were little about how to fly the plane, how to fly your life.

[A]

Learn to use the toilet, learn to put your shoes on the right feet, learn to write your name, and then so on and so forth until you make babies, take you check your 401k.

[B]

School, college, work, marriage, baby.

[A]

Death. Yeah, those are the instruments. Wait, Metaphorically.

[B]

Wait, we skipped over people getting plastic surgery? Certain points.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Well, then death.

[A]

Okay, yeah. So when we start to live outside the culture, which is a lifestyle that we endorse on bewildered.

[B]

Be wilder, Ed.

[A]

Wilder Ed. Come on, Ed.

[B]

Instead of coming to consensus, come to your senses. Okay, go on.

[A]

Ed never listens to us.

[B]

I hate that.

[A]

Keep talking to him and telling him to be wilder. Yes. So we think you should go by your nature, not by what the culture says. But if you start doing that early on, you're gonna find that you're used to having these instruments to fly by.

[B]

It's all you've learned to do. And you're very used to using them and you trust them. And by this, it's like, okay, I feel lonely. Okay. You get a certain type of partner, a certain age, a certain gender, you. I know, I see where you're going with this. Just, just getting a little self referential. But okay, then you have a standard marriage, and that's how. And it has to last till the end of your life, which would. Is supposed to be quite long. And that's it. That's the answer. It's the only answer. Right. If you don't know how to support yourself, you get a job, you get a W2, you get the thing, the 401K. As you said, These are the instruments you've learned to trust.

[A]

College degree. Yeah. Pieces of paper that say things that you hang on your wall. And then you feel safe.

[B]

Yeah. And you buy a house that has no dead mice painted over you.

[A]

Ideally, yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, but it's supposed to work a certain way. And you're. Your body is supposed to work a certain way. Your desires are supposed to work a certain way. Your business life is supposed to work a certain way. Your health, your government is going to take care of it all. The government has designed the panel and given it to you. And it's the one shouting directions at you only honestly, in our world today. It's like they're shouting in some sort of weird echolalia.

[A]

Really. They're just shouting. They're shouting like an old man who is blaming you that he can't find his teeth.

[B]

That's basically all you're getting these days.

[A]

Yeah, totally. And so any one of these things can happen to upset your. You can choose to go, I'm going to live a bit outside the culture. I'm going to marry a woman. Maybe I'm going to marry too. Who knows? Let's just see. I'm going to move into a house that's full of mice. And as you begin to live this way, you suddenly realized that without the instruments, you gotta learn to, like, operate in a completely different way.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Right. And I. I will. Like, there are people who've listened to this podcast before that will have heard this metaphor. Probably the best metaphor ever.

[B]

We should put it in the metaphor hall of fame.

[A]

Yeah, I think it would stack up quite well against a little guy called William Shakespeare, for instance.

[B]

Ah, okay.

[A]

Best metaphor of all time. Here it comes in Battlestar Galactica when Starbuck has to fly the Cylon spaceship and she realizes, holy shit, this spaceship is an animal and it's made out of meat, and I gotta fly the meat. And you are that Cylon spaceship. You are the meat plane.

[B]

Okay, I gotta fly the meat. That right there is.

[A]

I imagine that's what straight people say.

[B]

I just get to get up in the morning. If I don't, if I'm trying to figure it out, I'm just gonna scream, I've gotta fly the meat. How do I fly the meat?

[A]

Actually, let's not call this episode flying blind. Let's call it flying the meat. So you. Something's happened. You have chosen to live outside the culture, or the culture has kicked you out. Your body is.

[B]

Is.

[A]

You have chronic illness. Your body is not going to perform that. You have, like, a different kind of brain, and a 9 to 5 job isn't going to work for you. So there's all these different ways that either by choice or by circumstance, we get our instruments are not going to work for us. And so what we wanted to talk about today, or for instance, like, you upgrade your amazing podcast setup so that you don't have to have a screen in front of you, and then you're flying blind. And then you're totally flying blind.

[B]

Who knows what will happen? We must find new instruments. Yeah.

[A]

And so that's what we want to talk about now. Tell Me something. Marty, what does the culture say about flying blind?

[B]

Oh, it's terrible. It's shameful. It's never going to work.

[A]

Gotta have your gps, gotta have your bits of paper, Gotta have a plan, gotta have a logbook, Gotta conform.

[B]

Gotta have a certain type of friend, Gotta have a certain type of relationship.

[A]

Everyone's playing is the same as everyone else's plan.

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah. It always works the same way for everybody. And if you can just learn to do it right, you'll be fine. Yeah, but my instruments don't work. That doesn't matter. Do it anyway. Says the culture.

[A]

You know what? It's not you'll be fine, it's you'll be safe.

[B]

You'll be safe.

[A]

If you do this, you'll be safe. Yeah. And that's, in a way, why the metaphor of flying blind is so good. Because flying is scary.

[B]

Yes, it is.

[A]

And being on the ground feels safer. Yeah. But flying. When someone's painted over your windscreen.

[B]

Okay, that too. But instrument panel as well, so.

[A]

Yeah, it's a. It's a multi layer.

[B]

Interesting. So one of the reasons the instrument panel has been designed is that metaphorically. Metaphorically, it's in that hierarchically shaped society I'm always talking about. And everyone. People rise to the top and make the rules, make the instrument panels. But they're very few and their position is quasi parental. They're going to make everything work. So there's a company that you go to and you've got. It's 50,000 people. And at the top there are the parents and you do your job at the bottom and you use the instruments the way you've been told to and everything will be fine and you will be given the means of sustenance. What you will never be given is instructions on ways to live without the structure.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So it's like there's always that figure, and it's parent and then it's teacher, and then it's professor and then it's boss.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And those are all like stand ins for the culture at large. But the point is that you never have to choose anything for yourself. You're always responding. You're always doing your homework.

[B]

Yeah. Doing your chores and getting your allowance. Doing your chores and getting a place to live. The problem right now is that all the parental figures are either they're either falling apart or they're diabolical.

[A]

Yeah. And the parental structure is bullshit to begin with.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, that's already a flawed system because we're not children.

[B]

Yeah. And Basically, do your chores. Oops, we don't have any allowance for you. Just do more chores. Like that whole idea that you will be cared for if you conform. It's a broken promise. A thousand ways from Sunday in our particular moment in history, it's not working. The instrument panel and the windscreen have been painted over. So in a way, most of us are flying blind. I watch people fall like dominoes as different social changes from on high impact their lives, impact their income, impact their jobs. And I'm watching people starting to fly blind and panicking.

[A]

Mari, would you tell the story of watching on YouTube the tsunami?

[B]

Yeah. So in 2011, there was a huge tsunami that eradicated a lot of cities in Japan. But the one it really killed was called Sendai. And someone in Sendai, Japan, heard the horns blaring and then it speaking in Japanese like, find higher ground. And he turned on his camera. Don't know who he was. You know it's a he because you can hear him panting. But he ran out of his house and up onto a hill. And tsunamis, tidal waves do not come in as a wall of water like they do in the movies. No, no, no. That would be a giant wave of a different sort. Most tsunamis rise from the bottom up. So what you see, he's on this hill. He's overlooking all of Sendai, Japan. And then you see there's water in the streets. And you think, oh, the whole town's getting a bit wet. And then the water rises and it starts to reach the doors, like the bottom of the doors. It starts flowing into stores and houses. And you're like, oh, there's going to be some water damage. And then it rises and now it's halfway up the door. And now the first floor doors are completely underwater. And now it's getting in the second story windows. And now there are cars floating by with people in them. There are boats coming down the streets. And the wave continues to rise for six astonishing minutes, which is a really long time to sit and watch a disaster, but a very brief time to eradicate an entire city. One wave, and at about five and a half minutes, you see this strange dust rising over the city. And it's weird cause it's water. And then you realize that all the buildings have been shaken off their foundations and are beginning to break. And it's the mortar and the wood dust from the breakdown of the houses that you're seeing as a cloud. And then all the buildings start to wash away and the guy runs to higher ground and just Films the city floating away after six minutes after being bone dry. And I watched that and I thought, there are people who ran into those structures to be safe. Where are they? What's happening? This is not okay. Right. And then should I tell the other half of that?

[A]

Well, just like we're not just telling the story because it's horrifying. Like, the story is like, is a really brilliant metaphor for like, what are the structures?

[B]

So, yeah, the more we see a structure as being full of authority and tradition and history and money and force, the more stability we run into those structures to be safe in a time of chaos. Like that's what we've been taught to do. That's part of flying the plane. If in a disaster, run to the biggest, most solid, most authoritarian structure. Yeah, okay, point taken. But people have historically run into authoritarian structures because they appear very strong. In fact, they appear stronger than authoritative. So when you run into those, change continues and it's starting to loosen the foundations of those huge reliable institutions. Like, I don't know, the publishing industry. That was a safe job. Not anymore.

[A]

Government work.

[B]

Yes. If that's where you are trying to be safe, you don't have a way to be safe, you're not going to be okay. It's all going to be washed away.

[A]

So quickly so we can no longer, like in this environment we're living in that is governed by change happening rapidly in all directions. Like it's not just coming from one place. You know, between the climate, you know, every issues. Yeah, I mean, there's just. There's so much we want to run into. The buildings, the buildings aren't safe. So tell us what happened to you when you watch the video, what happened next?

[B]

I love the phrase you just used. It is we're living in a time that is governed by change. Like that's the real. That's the actual force that's making everything happen. Right?

[A]

Change.

[B]

Yeah, entropy, all that stuff. Okay, so I'm clicking. I watched this video of Sendai being washed away like 50 times one night. Couldn't sleep. Just kept watching it. I kept waiting for it to end differently.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I'm waiting for the hero to show up and save the day. Nope. Because that was my way of thinking.

[A]

That was your instrument.

[B]

A hero's gonna show up and save the day and not me. Cause I'm just a kid. Somebody, a big person needs to do it. Yeah, I'm not big enough. Me, a former baby. So you know how YouTube is arranged so that it gives you options of other videos that are similar. I must have accidentally clicked on a different video because I was going to watch Sendai again. And instead what I got was a video of a surfer in a competition, a big wave surfing competition. And I think the waves were like 40ft high. Typically at this place, which is four stories, which is like.

[A]

Imagine it's like those, those surfing competitions where that you're way out at sea. It's not like at the beach. They all, they're all like on, they come on jet skis and stuff. So just to give you context, because otherwise a 40 foot wave is not.

[B]

40 foot wave is huge. If you want to read all about it, read Susan Casey's book, the Wave. Brilliant. Brilliant. So sometimes, as you will read in Susan Casey's brilliant book, the Wave, the forces combine to create what's called a rogue wave. And two waves connect together and they, they combine their forces and the wave becomes immense. And what you see is a guy being jet skied out. He lets go of the rope from the jet ski and here's this dude in a pair of shorts with a board and the ocean like the old man in the sea or whatever. And you see it rising, the wave rising. And it's filmed from a helicopter which has to keep pulling back further and further and further because the rogue wave goes up and up and up and up and up till It's I think 74ft high. Think of a seven story building. And this wave does not come from underneath. It is high and he is tiny. He's like a gnat on the top of this wave. He's naked. He has like nothing. And then as it starts to crest, he cuts down the surface almost vertically for a very long time. And then the wave comes over him. And the amount of white water, I swear it splashes onto the helicopter which is way up in the sky. It's huge. It is like the wrath of God. And you hear this sound like he is dead. He is absolutely dead. And you watch it all in horror. And the white water keeps foaming. And then suddenly out of the foam comes Mike Parsons standing on a board whooping, having just had the ride of his life. And I thought, I watched that over and over. And then I thought the safest thing to do when you are in a world governed by change is to strip down to the very bare minimum that can keep you modest. Like walk out.

[A]

The most important thing when everything is falling apart is modesty.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Can you spot the former Mormon?

[B]

Okay, so no. Okay, go out naked. I don't care. Go out naked with a board and deal with the change. Dance with the change. Ride the change. Find joy and a thrill in the absolute terror of this massive change. And that way you will be safer than if you are busy running into the nearest government office to stay safe from a tsunami.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm curious to hear about. Now that we've got these two images. I love that, like, in this. In this podcast, we just give them metaphor.

[B]

Metaphors do. One of my kids once told me, mom, it must be great to make a living mixing metaphors. And it is.

[A]

I just want to, like, ask you, what are times when you have, you know, like, been. I'm trying to. I'm trying to fit it to the. To the tsunami rogue wave metaphor when you tried to run into a building.

[B]

But the building panel on the wave, and there you have a board in the cockpit.

[A]

Yeah. What happened when you were on the surfboard and the panel of instruments?

[B]

Just go with us, guys. Just ride the change. Ride the change.

[A]

Ride this weird thing.

[B]

No, I mean, I say this over and over again because it was such an overwhelming thing for me, but when I left my religion and culture of origin, you got to remember Mormonism, which is what raised me, is a life world religion, which means you're supposed to literally give your thoughts to the church. So I literally grew up trying earnestly to force my very thoughts into a pattern that was acceptable to the church. And every single action, everything, and I left it all at once. Boom. And I was utterly blind. I had so few skills to cope with life. And nothing worked outside of Mormonism the way it did inside. So it was all like, ah, I don't even know. Just the other day we had guests over to dinner and. And I poured some wine for them, and they looked at it and went, that's a lot of wine. And I'm like, how much do people give each other? I don't know. I'm flying blind on a wave in a cockpit with dead mouse. It's horrif. How should I know what wine to.

[A]

Give, what wine to serve on the surfboard of change?

[B]

Yeah, it's not on the panel.

[A]

I'm really tempted to bring the Titanic into this, but we shouldn't. No, no.

[B]

Okay, no, tell me. Tell me a time it happened to you.

[A]

I have nothing like that sort of story at all. But what I started thinking about was the way that, like, like, little outings into flying blind is kind of one of my, like, happy places, you know? So, like, traveling, doing a lot of Having done a lot of solo travel, it's almost like you're setting yourself up to like. I don't do tours. Right. I have always just. I get a backpack and I go a place that I don't know much about and I get by and that getting by itself, I don't. I mean, you know, like within reason, but I'm not going to war zones and stuff. But. And I just, I think about how once you start putting yourself in those situations for fun and practice, you're starting to build muscles that you can use when the tsunami comes. And you need to grab your surfboard in the cockpit with the buttons that don't because of the mouse.

[B]

I have so many images of you busking in Ireland, skiing in Kyrgyzstan. I mean, you have practiced this.

[A]

So I was in a town in northwestern India not far from the border with Pakistan. And it's like, it's a town called Jaisalmer. And it is the most fascinating place. It's like an 11th century.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

That. It's like all the buildings are.

[B]

No.

[A]

One fact. Don't fact check me on this, but all the buildings are like carved out of sandstone really elaborately. And it's like this one place on the planet where the climate is such that like dry enough and all of that, that it hasn't eroded, but the streets are this wide.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And I am just like telling the story because of how when you put yourself into a flying blind situation, the stuff that happens in is. It's, it's like when you're riding the way. Sorry, keep going back. Just you really can have the right of your life kind of thing as well as like building the skills to fly blind when it's real. Like when it's, you know, you do.

[B]

Get very relaxed in fly blind situations.

[A]

That's interesting. Yeah. So there I was, streets as wide as two people. But it's India. So there's a cow.

[B]

Of course there's. I was going to say just wide enough for a cow.

[A]

Just wide enough for a cow. In India, there's always a cow.

[B]

Just one. But he's everywhere.

[A]

He gets around. And she, she. So I'm there building, building on either side.

[B]

Cow.

[A]

And I'm trying to get past the cow. And I'm vaguely aware that at the other end of the cow someone else is trying to also get past the.

[B]

Cow in the opposite direction.

[A]

Yes. Coming towards me. So we're both. And there's this kind of nervous laughter that's going on as we both navigate this like really unprecedented sort of situation. Like, it's not like one of those, you know, when you're in that 11th century sort of town and you're trying.

[B]

To get by when that happens.

[A]

So we managed to. I don't even know how. I think, like, the thing about cows is that they're lovely.

[B]

They're lovely people. I was going to say. Was it the cow laughing? Actually, you said there was nervous laughter. And I thought all three of us.

[A]

All three of us. But, you know, the cow was lovely. So we kind of like snuggled up and got around anyway, after. And literally it was about five minutes of negotiation, he gets up here to my end. I've helped the cow get to the side. He comes. I finally properly make eye contact with him. And he's a famous Australian comedian.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Called Andrew Denton for the Aussies. I mean, comedian, TV personality.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, right.

[A]

And there I am in this remote Indian town trying to get past a cow as you do. And then, like. And it was just the most surreal celebrity sighting I could ever imagine. And I just. And he saw me recognize him and he like, genuinely understood how weird that.

[B]

Moment was for me.

[A]

Because he's like, oh, because you. And then the aha and the nervous laughter and then the like. And then it's me. Yeah, that must be weird for you. And I was like, it is. Thank you for your work.

[B]

Bye. Well, that's what's interesting though. When you do go into the fly blind zone, weird stuff happens, right? Synchronicities. We're getting woo woo already. Because really, when you decide to ignore the instrument panel and you start to steer it some other way, which we need to talk about in a minute, it like opens the non patterned, the non cultured world to you. It is beat wilder ing. And it turns out that Wilder is much more magical. And you have all kinds of strange. Like, I thought I was really famous because we went into a bookstore here in Kingston area where we're living in. And we went in and he said, you'll love this bookstore. And I did, because I was recognized by three different people who were like, thank you for your work. It's really helped me. I was in heaven. I've been to that bookstore every chance I get. I mean, wow, if that's what I get, I'm going back for another treat. No one knows who I am.

[A]

We went there this morning and I saw a dog wag its tail as you walked by.

[B]

He's read my work.

[A]

It really helped him.

[B]

If. Yeah, if only it had been a cow.

[A]

I know I know.

[B]

All right, this is cool.

[A]

Yeah. There's something about the flying blind thing where it's scary, but you learn to surf it and you're. I mean, I think the reality of living on Earth at this moment in time is that we're just gonna need to keep building that muscle. That unprecedented shit is just continuing to happen.

[B]

Yep, it sure is.

[A]

And so let's get better at this. And so I think we should talk about how do we come to our senses when it's nothing but waves?

[B]

We will tell you about it in just a minute.

[A]

Samadhi.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

When we're on our wave, slash cockpit, slash, running into it when we were surfing in a 747 native meat in 1986.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. We need to learn how to do that without the instruments of the culture. Right, Right. And you know, very much I would say what everyone's thinking, like Starbuck trying to ride the Cylon, meet spaceship. Right. Very much like Jack.

[B]

Are these metaphors, people?

[A]

And so I would like to ask you what. What is. What is our. The instruments of our true nature?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If we're coming out of the culture of consensus and into our. Our actual coming to our senses.

[B]

Yeah. This is what made my career. Because when I left Mormonism, I had to. I had to start from the bare boards. I had to start from the ground. There were no boards. And I just. How do I live my life? How do I make choices? And I began to start paying more attention to very granular sensations. And I found out that my body was actually incredibly intelligent. I'd been in chronic pain for 12 years and autoimmune diseases, a bunch of them, all incurable. And yet I noticed that the pain would go up a little when I made a certain choice, usually to try to get back into a large structure, into that authoritarian sort of image of parents who are going to take care of me. I would do that. I would get pain, like real systemic pain, organs starting to break down, and then they'd make a different decision. And suddenly I had energy and less pain. And I was like, whoa, this is interesting. And that became my first guideline. Go to, what if I make this choice, what does my body do? If I make the opposite choice, what does my body do when I'm not trying to control it?

[A]

Give us an example.

[B]

So I was teaching, I was an assistant professor at the time. And I would drive to campus to go to, like, a faculty meeting. And by the time I got to campus, I would be so physically weak and in so much pain. And that I couldn't open the door of the car. That it was all I could do to walk into a building. It was like I was being pushed backwards by pain. But some days I didn't have to go to campus some days, because that's how college life is. I would stay home. And I had started writing a novel, which would become my first memoir. Suddenly, no pain, no fatigue, no loss of energy. It got really strong. So I quit my job ultimately. And I don't know if I've told this story before, but it's worth telling again. The dean said, we need women. You have to stay on. We'll pay you anything. And I said, you don't understand. If I stay in this job, I will have to go on massive doses of antidepressants just to show up. And the dean said, well, I'm on antidepressants just to show up, so. But I. I would have died. I literally think I would have physically found a way to make a disease kill me.

[A]

So it's kind of interesting because it's almost like your body gave you very strong feedback that helped you kind of start learning to work with it.

[B]

Yeah. The meat machine was very obvious for me.

[A]

Yeah. And I think for most of us, it's much more subtle. And like, when you do the Wayfinder life coach training, you run. This body compass idea is something that you teach early on. And it's such a fascinating kind of. You learn because all our bodies are different. All our meet spaceships are different.

[B]

I'm on a meat spaceship in a tsunami.

[A]

It's like you go to court. Your honor, I'm just trying to fly my own meat spaceship.

[B]

Okay. Then a tsunami sweeps the courtroom away.

[A]

Yeah. Fade to black.

[B]

Another metaphor for those who don't have enough. Okay, talk to me. Tell me you went through the.

[A]

I went through the life coach training. So I did that, and I learned that, you know, it can be so subtle and it's so unique to everyone's body, but it is the body. Yes. It's never a thought. It's always a feeling. So the first thing like, that we have to do is, like, in a very literal, come to your senses way, is like, what's going on for me when I am embarking on a path that is not the right path for me. Because our bodies know fucking early way before our minds.

[B]

Way early. Could I give a little example from.

[A]

I wish you would.

[B]

Malcolm Gladwell, in Blink. In Blink, he's talking about this experiment where subjects had to choose from a red pile of Cards and a blue pile of playing cards. And they were supposed to get a certain number of points and one of the decks was stacked against them. Let's say it was the red one. So if you played, if you picked cards randomly, the red pile was stacked against you. But it gave you a few big wins. The blue pile would give you steady small wins and not any disasters. But the big win at the beginning made the red pile look better. So it took people 80 cards to start to realize that the red pile was something wrong with that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But when they measured the perspiration of their hands, which is a sign of anxiety after they pulled just 10 cards, their hands would sweat more when they reached for the red deck. And after 10 cards the body mind had already noticed that the red deck was stacked. It's incredibly wise.

[A]

Right. That's so cool. But I wonder if like that those signals are going to be fairly uniform like the sweating of the hands and that sort of thing. But I feel like there's also all these things you have to figure out for yourself in terms of what it feels like from the inside. Like that sort of interoceptive neuroception.

[B]

Yeah. How you feel the inside of your body. Contraception. Neuroception. Yeah.

[A]

And so the cool thing that we do in the coach training is that you have us go through this exercise where it's like you have to do like imagine yourself in the worst situation and really go into it physically and start actually logging the physical sensations that go along with that.

[B]

A bad choice.

[A]

Yeah. Imagine. Imagine it as a spectrum. So she, she has like, there's minus 10, there's zero, which is that you're.

[B]

You don't feel much of anything.

[A]

Yeah. Sort of neutral. And then there's +10, the best thing ever. And you start to be able to feel the more subtle ones because they're more like they're heading in the direction of that very noticeable negative 10.

[B]

Could I make a generalization for people who aren't in the coach training? Because it's quite detailed.

[A]

You don't want me to try and paraphrase your work in front of you to you any longer.

[B]

I just feel like I need to run into the structure of authority systems that is mothabad. That is me. I've really, I've worked with thousands of people and this thing is incredibly reliable. But there's one generalization that I can make and that is when you're making a decision that is wrong for you, off course for you specifically, even though we don't know what your Future is meant to hold. There will be tension in the body when you make a move towards something that is right for you, even if you're afraid of it. There will be loosening in the body, relaxation, opening. So a sense of closing, intention, sense of freedom and openness. So it boils down to which choice sets you free as registered by your body's relaxation.

[A]

We had to name, give it, give a unique name for our worst thing and our best thing. I can't remember my worst thing, although I think yours is like the ton.

[B]

Of bricks, ton of gravel.

[A]

So you can feel that. But I always remember when I did this exercise that for me, the. The feeling of the absolute spot on, you know, you were right on target. This is the right thing. I called it Tingly Cathedral. And so there was like that little. There was a frisson, but there was also, to your point, that sense of huge expense space. And there's always that.

[B]

It's always that opening, but it's coming from the inside. It's so weird how the vastness opens up as you stop trusting the instrument panel that culture gives you and you start turning in toward biological and then emotional. Well, that's biological too. And even, like intuitive compasses. What happens is that you discover this vast fund of wisdom, energy, motivation. Like, everything starts to fly the way it was meant to fly. And after a while, for a while, it's like, damn, I wish the instrument panel was still working. And then after a while you're like, no, this'll do, this'll do. And then you're like, oh, this is gonna take me to a new place.

[A]

Right. And so you're just making those subtle adjustments, of course, all the time, where you're like, oh, no, that's starting to feel closer to the. No, no, let's turn this way. Oh, that's starting to feel better.

[B]

We went for coffee before we came here.

[A]

That was a great choice, by the way, for you.

[B]

But I was standing in line with you and I thought, coffee tension immediately. Okay, no, coffee relaxation immediately. Tiny choices like that. If you can do it with a cup of coffee and then you start doing it with, like, how you spend the hours of your day. And then you start using that to decide who you're going to hang out with and what work you're going to do and how to keep your body healthy. You learn to fly the way Mike Parsons was surfing. Right.

[A]

Just minuscule decision by minuscule decision.

[B]

Yeah. Like you're balancing and adjusting continuously. But you trust your instrument, which is now your body, and your intuition and your emotions and everything connected to it, your spirituality, all of that. And instead of constant horror in a world governed by change, you're like, okay, bring it. Let's do this. This could be fun.

[A]

This could be fun. And that exact feeling is how we Stay Wild. We hope you're enjoying Bewildered. If you're in the USA and want to be notified when a new episode comes out, text the word wild to 570-873-0144. We're also on Instagram. Our handle is Bewildered Podcast. You can follow us to get updates, hear funny snippets and outtakes, and chat with other fans of the show. Bewildered is produced by Scott Forster with support from the Brilliant team at mbi. And remember, if you're having fun, please rate and review and stay wild.

[B]

People are always asking me, how did you get into training life coaches? And the answer is backwards. I did it backwards. That is, I didn't set up a program and then look for people to fill it. It's just that so many people were coming to me for coaching that I realized in order to serve the market, I was going to have to train other people in my methods. That was decades ago, and now the Wayfinder program contains all my very best wisdom and tools for living, boiled down to their savory essence. Now, if that sounds interesting to you, head on over to MarthaBeck.com and find your way.