I Want to Be the Person Who

Summary

Podcast Summary

Bewildered

Episode: "I Want to Be the Person Who"

Hosts: Martha Beck and Rowan Mangan
Date: December 17, 2025

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Overview of the Episode

In this heartfelt and humor-laced conversation, Martha Beck and Rowan Mangan explore the impulse to want to "be the person who" does culturally admirable things—like keeping up with texts, making perfect school lunches, or living a well-organized life. Through personal stories, playful self-examination, and the recurring metaphor of zebras versus horses, they investigate the tension between societal expectations (culture) and authentic, instinctive desires (nature). The episode is an invitation to question whether we genuinely want to become certain types of people, or whether we're just longing to fit in—a call to stop trying to force ourselves to want what we don’t, and instead embrace our own wild, stripey natures.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Lure and Trap of Self-Improvement Narratives

• Intro (00:05-01:10):
  • The hosts joke about the phrase: “I want to be the person who…” and mock the cultural pressures placed on mothers and individuals to do the "right" things.
  • “Do I really want to be the mother who diligently stays up late defrosting mozzarella sticks for her daughter's school lunch?” – Rowan (00:16)
• Instagram and Zebras/Horses Metaphor Introduced:
  • The desire to be someone different draws comparison to wanting to be a horse when you’re really a zebra (00:57-01:10).

2. Personal Anecdotes: Failing at Cultural Scripts

• Emollients and Self-Image (02:05-10:33):
  • Martha recounts a comedic saga of disastrous skincare experiments sparked by online pressure to look younger, including mistaking soap for lotion in a hotel and the physical fallout.
  • “My face started to hurt a lot and it got quite blotchy...I truly believe it was soap.” – Martha (08:54)
  • Both hosts discuss minor acts of “criminality,” like accidentally keeping someone else’s lotion or sunglasses, poking at their own fallibility in the face of ideal standards.

3. The Onion-Poet Dilemma: Desire, Avoidance, and Self-Image

• Touching Onions vs. Writing Poetry (11:35-16:50):
  • Rowan describes her fantasy of being a prolific poet—while also making food, gardening, parenting, and running a business—believing she can “touch an onion” and write poetry, all in one day.
    • “I want to be the kind of poet that touches an onion.” – Rowan (12:38)
    • The tension: cooking is achievable, poetry exposes vulnerability.
  • Martha identifies the real struggle: the fear of doing what truly matters (like poetry) because failure feels riskier than with less-sacred tasks.
    • “You’re afraid to write poems because they matter to you.” – Martha (15:44)

4. Culture vs. Nature—Which Voice Are We Following?

• Dissecting Wants (20:18-36:14):
  • Rowan wants Martha to check texts more regularly; Martha is stunned by how easily Rowan keeps up with messages.
    • “It’s not a discreet thing…The phone is there and it goes in my watch.” – Rowan (22:15)
    • “I have to have, like, a runway and time to plan and deal with it before I check texts.” – Martha (22:42)
  • Both reflect on wanting to be a certain way for social approval or to avoid conflict, not out of genuine desire.
    • “I only want to be that person so you won’t get mad at me.” – Martha (32:00)

5. The Depth of Wanting: Do We Want to Want It, or Do We Just Think We Should?

• Double Removal and the Social Script (34:12-36:41):
  • Noteworthy realization: Many aspirations reflect a desire to want something, rather than true longing.
    • “I want to want to be that person. I want to want it, but I really don’t want it.” – Martha (34:11)
    • They distinguish between wants rooted in “culture” (external expectations) and “nature” (authentic impulses).

6. The Zebra-Horse Framework: Embracing One’s Own Nature

• Taming Nature for Culture (41:12-49:41):
  • Martha shares facts on animal domestication, illustrating how some traits can be tamed but never fully changed.
    • “You can tame an individual zebra…But if it has a baby, you’re going to have to start all over again.” – Martha (41:41)
  • The conclusion: Instead of forcing ourselves to be “horses” (socially ideal), we should accept our inner “zebra,” doing what’s necessary to participate in society but reserving most energy for our true self.
    • “I’m a zebra. I got stripes.” – Martha (38:45)
    • “Stop trying to force yourself to be domesticated, especially in areas where you’ve tried and tried and you know, it just doesn’t take.” – Martha (48:56)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We must imagine Sisyphus podcasting through it.” – Rowan (01:52)
• “You may touch an onion every fifth poem.” – Martha (16:18)
• “It’s like they can’t teach zebras to be ridden like horses very easily. Zebras just don’t have the temperament of horses.” – Martha (37:29)
• “Freedom from trying to force yourself to want something you don’t want is the point of this podcast.” – Martha (51:06)
• “Want what you want.” – Rowan (51:16)
• “You don’t want to be a horse. You want to want to be a horse. But you really don’t want to be a horse.” – Martha (48:20)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |---|---| | 00:05 – 01:19 | Opening banter; setting up the “I want to be the person who…” premise | | 02:05 – 10:33 | Emollients, internet advice, and the lotion/soap debacle | | 11:35 – 16:50 | Rowan’s poet/cook/parent fantasy; the fear behind truly meaningful work | | 20:18 – 24:44 | Text-checking habits and technology's grip (or lack thereof) | | 26:05 – 33:51 | The shame of not fitting the cultural mold—zebra vs. horse metaphor evolves | | 33:51 – 36:41 | Untangling authentic wants from culturally-imposed ones | | 41:12 – 49:41 | Deep dive on domestication, wildness, and finding ways to belong without betraying oneself | | 48:56 – 51:16 | The final rally: embrace your own nature, stop trying to be a horse |

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Conclusion / Takeaways

• The desire to “be the person who” is often rooted in social conditioning, not authentic longing.
• Constantly wishing to want things we don’t truly want keeps us trapped in shame and self-rejection.
• Embracing your authentic, “wild” self—even when it doesn’t fit the cultural ideal—is key to genuine happiness.
• It's okay to set up supportive systems (reminders, checklists) to handle necessary but unnatural tasks, but you don’t have to try to become someone you’re not.
• Stop trying to “be a horse” when you’re a glorious, stripy, zebra.

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Episode Mood & Tone

• Highly conversational, playful, with frequent humor and self-mockery.
• Thoughtful and earnest about deeper emotional truths.
• Dynamic interplay between hosts as life partners; affection, teasing, and support.

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For Listeners

If you find yourself longing to “be the kind of person who…”—pause and ask if that desire springs from your true nature or just the voice of culture in your head. And as Martha and Rowan remind us: let your stripes show, and stay wild.

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Stay wild!

Transcript

[A]

So, Marty.

[B]

Yes, Rowie?

[A]

We have a fun episode of Bewildered coming up.

[B]

Yes, we do.

[A]

You know how you say, I want to be the person who does that thing?

[B]

Oh, yes, I know, and it's true. But is it? Is it?

[A]

Is it? Do I really want to be the mother who diligently stays up late defrosting mozzarella sticks for her daughter's school lunch the next day, as all good mothers all could not?

[B]

That's the least they can do.

[A]

The least they can do.

[B]

I'm lying. Do I really want to be a person who checks texts every hour? Do I really want to be that person?

[A]

Really want to?

[B]

Well, it all comes down to what I have learned in person and on Instagram about zebras.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

In relationship to horses.

[A]

You will find in this episode of Bewildered. Marty uttering the to me unforgettable phrase. You've gotta stop saying I want to be a horse. Stop saying that.

[B]

It's just between us, Ro. You've got to stop saying that. Come give us a listen. Hi, I'm Martha Beck.

[A]

And I'm Rohan Mangan. And this is another episode of Bewildered, the podcast for people trying to figure it out.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So what are you trying to figure out, Martha Beck?

[B]

Well, first off, that I'm trying to figure out.

[A]

And in conclusion.

[B]

It was her last hope. I have a bit of a cold and a bit of jet lag, and I'm just forging ahead anyway and trying to figure it out.

[A]

We must imagine Sisyphus podcasting through it.

[B]

That's right. If. If our audience is as familiar with Albert Camus as you happen to be.

[A]

Or Internet memes on the same topic.

[B]

Well, let us imagine Sisyphus with a bit of bronchitis and some jet lag.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the rock.

[A]

And a podcast.

[B]

And a podcast. The man was burdened, but he's happy. Okay, okay, wait, wait. I have a thing that I was trying to figure out. I know I've mentioned this at least once before, but the struggle goes on, and that is my battle with emollients. Everywhere on the Internet are ads for people like me who are trying to figure out how to make their skin look a tiny bit less old. And they always have pictures of women who look like they have been run over by a bus in the before thing, and then they put on some weird green powder or something and suddenly they look like Beyonce. Right. And I know it's a lie. I know it's a lie, but I feel responsible to somehow feed my skin things that will make things better. For my life. So I got something off the interweb.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I put it on once a day because I'm going to run a workshop and everybody will be pleased with me because of the slightly less old look of my skin.

[A]

Right. Because that's what everyone, like, comes to a workshop. Really ready to assess how the skin of the workshop. Because that's. Yeah.

[B]

100%.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, watch the interweb. It will tell you that. So here's the thing. I will stop saying interweb someday. Thank you.

[A]

That would be so fun.

[B]

I will just go back to.

[A]

I think you need to put some of that emollient on your face.

[B]

Oh, I should have swallowed it. Anyway, this particular emollient, I don't know, is very intense because my face started to hurt a lot and it got quite blotchy.

[A]

So you were far from home and you had a new thing that you'd bought off the Internet, and it said.

[B]

Once, once a day. It was really intense. Was it?

[A]

Did it say anything else?

[B]

Nope. Just once a day. Seriously. It was just this thing in a really fancy little flask that said once a day.

[A]

Was it sold to you by, like, a mysterious gypsy at the side of the road? Did it grow in beans?

[B]

I had also been using some lotion that came to our house.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Even though it was addressed to somebody who doesn't live there anymore. I feel so guilty even saying this because I kept it.

[A]

Regular listeners to the podcast will know that we bear a grudge against the person we bought a house from.

[B]

She painted over a mouse.

[A]

She painted over a mouse. In fairness.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so Mari tried to forward the lotion to her. Oh, you did not.

[B]

I watched you Spiderman about it.

[A]

I watched you notice. Notice the thing obligatory like a check the name. And then I saw you, like, clock that it was lotion.

[B]

No, I opened it first. How do you think I knew that it was lotion?

[A]

I knew that it was lotion.

[B]

So I thought, you know, it's not going to be the end of her life if she doesn't get her lotion right away.

[A]

You're actually admitting to a crime, right?

[B]

God, I really am. And I wrote a book called the Way of Integrity. I take it all back.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

All the part. Oh, my gosh. I have to call her.

[A]

And mighty have fallen.

[B]

I've got to buy more of that lotion and send it to her. Oh, my God. Did I tell you about the time I once I was in the supermarket and I needed some sunglasses, so I put some in my cart off some rack, and then I accidentally just put them on as I was leaving and didn't pay for them. And they were really good sunglasses, so.

[A]

Really good, as in, they were not.

[B]

High quality, but I liked them. I cannot buy high quality things because I am me because of you. But I really wanted to go back and pay for them. But then I was embarrassed to admit that I'd gone off without them. So I thought, here's what I'll do.

[A]

Sneak them back on the shelf.

[B]

Yeah, just sneak them. But then I thought, anyway, there was a lot of consideration that went into this, and I finally went back to pay for them, and the store had gone out of business because of you. No, I have to say, the sunglasses were 4.50. It was $4.50. I'm not making a huge crime here, but now with the lotion, it's starting to add up.

[A]

I went through a shoplifting phase, but I was way too old for it. I was like 22. I know.

[B]

Told me that. I know. I just got. We are horrible.

[A]

I know.

[B]

We're like pirates.

[A]

We're criminals. Smooth criminal. And now to return to the lotion.

[B]

Oh, God, you smooth criminal. Anyway, I was using this daily lotion. It was very intense, and I thought, I can't do this anymore. This is hurting. And putting on more is just making it worse. It really hurting me more than it's hurting you. So I thought, you know what? Back to basics. I'm just going to use. I'm going to wash my face. I'm going to put on the lotion that they always give you in the hotel. The hotel lotion for your body. Even though I once gave a friend, she said, do you have some lotion? And I gave her body lotion. She was like, this is body lotion. I need hand lotion. I guess she had hands that weren't part of her body anyway, like other hands, A collection of hands that she wanted to.

[A]

The hands are to the body as the face is to the head, perhaps.

[B]

Okay. And you can't use body lotion for face. But I decided I was going to. I was just gonna go back to basics.

[A]

Imagine, if you will, the face as part of the body.

[B]

What?

[A]

I mean, this is why we're controversial.

[B]

That's right. That's right. And just have at us, folks. Yeah, I don't know if I'll send your letters anyway. The lotion in the hotel was oddly watery and clear, But I thought, was it water? A little thicker than water, but not blood, which I thought is thicker. Than water. Anyway, I put it on my sore hurdy face and I woke up in the night and I hurt even more. So I put more on and it got worse and worse. And I looked in the mirror and I looked. Looked like. Have you ever been to Death Valley?

[A]

I've not, no.

[B]

I look like Death Valley. It's like you get one rain every 10 years and then it is like wet clay, and then it breaks in the sun and it looks like some. This scaly, nasty surface. That's what I looked like. So I kept putting on more of the hotel lotion, and it just got worse and worse. And finally I asked my friend who was there, is the lotion in your room weirdly clear?

[A]

Does the lotion in your room make you turn into Death Valley?

[B]

And she said, no, the lotion in my room is white and scented of lavender. And I was like, what have I been putting on my face? And I truly believe it was soap.

[A]

I think it was hand soap.

[B]

I think it was just hand soap. It wasn't even face soap or body soap.

[A]

Body wash.

[B]

Body wash, Hand soap. Different. For God's sake, don't use the same detergent on everything here.

[A]

Marty thinks that all soap is as one. This is true. Like, she. She'll just be like, it's the same thing what you use on your toilet, what you use on your child. Just put it in the washing machine and scrub it up.

[B]

It's so not true. You're so paranoid. This is going on way too long. My point is. I don't know what my point is. Emollients, they're dangerous. Also, I recognize. I just want to say this one more time for the listeners, that my voice sounds like someone trying to clean a toilet with a live raven. And you're just a soap or a hand soap. You get a little hand soap and a raven and just swish it around in there and you get my voice. Anyway, I'm trying to figure out emollients. I have no conclusion here. It was horrible. I stopped using the soap on my face, and my face gradually caked off after about like. Seriously, this is so gross. But I'm gonna tell you anyway. Like, three days after I got back, I was washing my face with regular soap and like a whole layer of it just peeled off.

[A]

Can I ask you something?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For real? For real?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Was it, like a bit satisfying to peel off your own face?

[B]

Totally. So totally.

[A]

It sounds like it would be amazing.

[B]

Yeah. I thought the face underneath this would look dewy and youthful and. No, but at least it was fun to peel off the old one. Oh, God. What are you trying to figure out? This is not right.

[A]

So I am trying to figure out, well, you know, like, how to design the perfect life that meets my every need. And living with a life coach who, as I do. I know. Awkward. No one. You know, sometimes I am attempting to, like, work out my life, trying to figure it out, and you pop in bit. Life coachy.

[B]

Sometimes it happens.

[A]

Hello.

[B]

Hello. Look at my face.

[A]

I've got another one underneath it. So I was trying to figure out my life.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I, you know, I was freestyling. Gotta figure out my life. And. And some of the time, I garden, and some of the time I cook and I bring the food from the garden and I bring it forth and in there somewhere, I raise a child, run a business, make a podcast, be a person to people and things like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you said, write poems. And I was like, yes, also, I will write the poetry. And then you said, your back hurts because you're not writing poetry and you shouldn't cook, because that's how life coaches talk and no spouses. You shouldn't cook.

[B]

Yeah, you shouldn't cook.

[A]

So then I was like, I think I must have been. I was quite caught up in. In the poetry of. Of this new life, in this new town and in this new place. And I'm gonna be like, no, I'm going to. I'm gonna have a different sort of day that has 27. 7 hours. And in those extra hours, I will be doing the things. And you were like, like, anyone can make a food. Not everyone can make a poems.

[B]

And especially not several poems.

[A]

Yeah, not several poems. And I was like. And I said to you, I'll own it. Yeah, but shouldn't a poet, like, touch onions? I want to be the kind of poet that touches an onion.

[B]

You actually said, I think it would really fuel the poetry if I had touched an onion earlier in the day. Like I was saying, because you've been doing this not just recently, honey, but for 10 solid years. I'm going to have a life where I will be a crossing guard and also a farmer, and I will be a Canadian Mountie, while I'll also be a veteran nurse. Like, you have wildly ambitious lifetimes that you plan, and they're all supposed to happen simultaneously.

[A]

No, consecutively. In the one day.

[B]

In the one day. Yeah. So when your back goes out, it kind of carves into that.

[A]

It does.

[B]

It does.

[A]

Thank you for understanding.

[B]

But what makes you happiest and the thing that I think makes you unbelievably. Well, many things do. But, like, one of the most amazing things about you is your poetry. Thank you. And you have not been putting it first. Sorry, sorry. I get a little life coachy spousy on you, so.

[A]

Yeah, but I want to touch an onion, and I've got a write poem about touching an onion. Do you even know how an onion feels?

[B]

How it feels? Subjectively, yes. Don't chop me. Why are you putting a little piece of me on your head?

[A]

Okay, so that stops your eyes crying.

[B]

Like, I've never taken that up.

[A]

It works.

[B]

You put a chunk. She puts a chunk of onion on her head when she's chopping onions. Placebo. Nope. But then your hair smells like onions all day long.

[A]

Yeah, well, that's not a placebo.

[B]

That's just a delicious personal.

[A]

Anyway, I gotta touch an onion. We've all gotta touch an onion from time to time.

[B]

But the fact is, you've touched a hell of a lot of onions without writing a lot of poetry in between.

[A]

No, that's a. That's a fair point.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So touch fewer onions. Maybe I could touch an onion with.

[B]

One hand and run it. She's left handed. So it'd be like.

[A]

If you read a book called, like, Water for Chocolate. Yeah, that's where it tells you to put an onion on your head and.

[B]

Then you'll be like, water for chocolate. You put water for chocolate on your head too.

[A]

Oh, God, this is just going wrong.

[B]

This is terrible. The point is, you're trying to do everything, and then at the point that you actually sit down to write your poetry. Here's the thing. You're not even saying it. You're dancing backwards from this thing so fast that you're not even tracking the point.

[A]

Dancing.

[B]

Yes, dancing back. Metaphorically. Here's the deal. You're afraid to write poems because they matter to you. If you chop up an onion and it's not chopped exactly right, and we eat it that night, and only Lila goes, that's horrible. And it hurts your feelings. It really doesn't matter. But your poetry really matters, so it's scarier there. That's what you're trying to figure out. They don't call me life coach for nothing.

[A]

So I can't touch any more onions.

[B]

You may touch an onion every fifth poem. By the way, this is not how I. Life coach. I would always say, what do you feel? And we had that conversation, right? What do you feel? What makes you happy? And she thought about writing poems and it was like, oh, my God. That is my deepest calling at this point. And I'm like, okay, do it. And she's like, onion. Onion. There were other things, too. There was soil involved. Touch the soil.

[A]

I want to get a T shirt that just says, touch an onion.

[B]

I'm sure that's. I'm just trying to figure out which perverted sex act that would metaphorically represent. If you said touch an onion on a shirt, it would be taken sexually.

[A]

No, it would not. It's the most innocent thing in the world. It could not be misconstrued.

[B]

What are we talking about?

[A]

Touch an onion.

[B]

That looks a little creepy right there.

[A]

Just grope it firmly.

[B]

Give it a little twist. Grope an onion firmly. Give it a little twist.

[A]

Give it a little twist.

[B]

Put it on your head. And we're back. Because you have just written a really beautiful verse there.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

It's beautiful.

[A]

I think I will write an entire anthology of onion poems, and people will.

[B]

Read it with a little piece of paper on their heads. Okay, so actually, I'm going to come back and say, tell me where I'm wrong. About being afraid. You being afraid to write a poem and wanting to touch onions. Because actually, you're backing away from the serious thing. Tell me where I'm wrong.

[A]

I will tell you where you're wrong.

[B]

Please.

[A]

With the onion. No, I know when I finished cutting an onion. That's the thing. And if I'm trying to do a day, I can cut an onion and then it's cut.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's the tricky thing. That's the tricky way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is I don't know when a poem. Like, I've been working on poems.

[B]

I know, but since that conversation before that, you hadn't been for a while.

[A]

I'm just saying I'm taking all the credit.

[B]

Tell me where I'm wrong.

[A]

Shall we do a podcast?

[B]

Yeah, it would be nice to get to some sort of a point.

[A]

Hi there. I'm Ro, and I'll be your podcaster for today. Do you know how to tip your podcaster? It's actually pretty easy. You can rate our pod with lots of stars, all your stars. You can review it with your best superlatives. You can even subscribe or follow Bewildered so you'll never miss an episode. Then, of course, if you're ready to go all in. Our paid online community is called Wilder, A Sanctuary for the Bewildered. And I can honestly say it's one of the few true sanctuaries online. You can go to wildercommunity.com to check it out. Great review. Subscribe, join, and you all have a great day now.

[B]

Hello, the lovely peoples. This is Marty Martha, inviting you to a free masterclass that I have made called five paths to your purpose. Probably the most common question I get from people is, how do I find my purpose? Why don't I feel that I'm on purpose? Well, it turns out there are certain things you have to do to find your purpose, and I broke them down into five, and I made a little masterclass about it. So if you'd like to see it, just go to marthaveck.compurpose and you will will be able to watch it without any charge at all.

[A]

So what we want to talk about on this podcast today, Dr. Martha Beck, is that feeling when you go, I want to be the person who does that.

[B]

So, as we were driving along today, you posed me an interesting series of.

[A]

Questions, as I tend to do.

[B]

First one was, have you checked your texts? And I said, of course, yes, because I check them every week and there's always a nice crop that's been waiting.

[A]

There for me saying things like, please.

[B]

Mother, for the love of God. And yes. And so I looked at a request on the text, and I was like, no, I do not have a copy of a book I wrote 20 years ago, and I don't have a Braille copyright close at hand. And you were like, stop yelling at me. Because, in fact, I was pretty much yelling at you, but not at you anyway. Then you repeated a plea that you've made before, Marty, could you please, please just check your text so I don't have to get yelled at like this all the time. And I said, well, how often do most people check their texts? I thought, once a day, which I've been doing. And to me, that is a very high level of showing up, texting and responding to, oh, that might take a few more days. See, I'm feeling great shame now. But you said, I said to you, how many times a day do you check your texts? Do you remember what you said?

[A]

I don't know, like, both of these. It's like both of these responses are potentially shameful in different ways, right? Because I think I said, well, I would definitely know if I'd received any texts in the last hour, which just floors me.

[B]

I mean, what kind of witch are you?

[A]

Maybe I'm too like, oh, so you.

[B]

Think that you check them too much?

[A]

Well, I'm not like, checking my text isn't a discreet act. What? It's not like I go, hello, I Must check my texts. I just. The phone is there and it goes in my watch. It tells me things. It brings that. It's. It brings things to my attention.

[B]

I'm. I am dumbstruck with amazement. It's not a discreet thing where you have to brace yourself to go check your texts.

[A]

No.

[B]

Oh, my God. I have to have, like a Runway and time to plan and deal with it before I check texts.

[A]

Sometimes I'm listening to a podcast and a voice comes in and it says, marty sent a long text. Read it. And I say, okay, read it. And then she reads it to me.

[B]

What does it say?

[A]

It says, bring me a hair dryer.

[B]

And that's what your theory considers a long text, bring me hair. There. I edited it. Does that help? Seriously, I feel so. Like I can use technology. I'm not that kind of old, doddering. I don't know what the Internet is. It's a series of tubes. But I just. Never in my life have I been able to just casually notice what other people need throughout the day. I am so. What do they call it? Hyper focused.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's absolutely no way. It's like me telling you remember everything you ever forgot. What? It's an impossible thing. And so when you say it's just a thing that happens and it's not discreet. Oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah, it's. It's so interesting. Your. Your mind literally, genuinely does just do one thing at a time. It's never, like, percolating.

[B]

I grew up in a house with 10 people, a tiny house with 10 loud people in it. And all I was doing was reading the whole time. I developed unbelievable ability to wall out distraction. But also, apparently nothing can get in through it.

[A]

No.

[B]

So, yeah. And I'm sitting here as we speak, in kind of a puddle of shame because I can't do that.

[A]

Yeah. And we were driving along, and I was kind of bemoaning the. Like, people select the information, they try to find a way to send it to you, and then what ends up happening is I read it, and then I have to say, marty, could you check your text? Marty, there's a text there. Marty, would you reply to that text? And. And then we. And then Marty said, I want to be that person.

[B]

I do.

[A]

Who checks their texts.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we thought it's interesting that.

[B]

Yeah, I want to be the person who does so many things. And I just. But despite wanting to be that, I mean, this is not the first or even the hundredth time we've had this exact conversation. Marty, would you please Check your text. There's a whole line of people waiting for your responses. You never check your text. I always check my text. No, you never check your text. Always is a strong word.

[A]

Then she. Then she has this thing she'll go into where she's like, before you came along, I did all my emails every day. I was just an email writing machine. And then I go to Karen and I'm like, she reckons she writes. She wrote all her emails.

[B]

And Karen's like, that must have been before my latest integrity cleanse. No, I never did that. Okay. But the thing is, I, like, every time it happens, I am just, like, leveled because I'm not that person, and you have to be that person, and I'm just not.

[A]

Well, now maybe you have some insight into how it feels to be a person who wants to touch onions. All right, so, no, but you.

[B]

Wait, wait, wait. Opposite day. I'll tell you what. Oh, my God.

[A]

Not opposite day. Same as day.

[B]

You want to touch onions and you do. I. I want to check my text and I don't.

[A]

Maybe if we wrote texts on onion paper.

[B]

Oh, and then you would read them. Just the way it goes right now. But honestly, it's like there. And there are many places. And yes, this is probably because of my neurodivergence. Whatever. I don't know what my exact diagnosis would be. Probably autistic spectrum plus add, whatever. But I. My whole life have not had a brain that acts like other people seem to want to and do it easily. Like, how do you scroll through? Like, Instagram?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I have made a vow to become the kind of person who can scroll through Instagram.

[A]

It is so funny.

[B]

So many times I tried it today. You know how many things I got through in an hour? Five. Because they're interesting. And then you have to go, but.

[A]

You also have to send them to everyone you've ever met.

[B]

You wouldn't believe how many times I go to send them and I send them to myself because I have to send them to somebody. And I know I must not bother people with it. Like, oh, my God, this morning I saw this.

[A]

I don't want anybody else. When I think about you, I text myself.

[B]

Oh, God, there was something on Instagram. It was a sheep who lived with a flock of goats. Is it a herd or a flock? A bunch of goats. And they all were together until they jumped over a fence and he couldn't. And then I had to go research goats and sheep and whether the sheep's self esteem would be negatively impacted and isolation can result as all the goats jump over the fence. And the reason I'm talking about this Ro. This particular Instagram, it's symbolic of how I feel.

[A]

This particular Instagram, you.

[B]

You are the goat jumping over the fence with all the other goats. And I'm here going, you went through how many Instagram posts I went through in an hour because they were so interesting that each of them took six minutes. Is that so wrong? But you go through, like, thousands. You just keep scrolling. It's amazing. I don't know how it works. I want to be you. I want to be that person.

[A]

Yeah. And sometimes we. More than wanting to do the thing, we want to be the kind of person who does the thing.

[B]

Yeah. Like you want. What you really want to be is you want to be the person who gets up in the morning and takes a strong cup of black coffee and writes a poem like that would. I don't know, tell me where I'm wrong.

[A]

Here's what I want to be. Kind of person who gets up in the morning, makes a strong cup of black coffee and pours half and half in it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I am.

[B]

Yay. But you're backing away from the point, which is write a poem. I know this because when you do write, you do a lot of backing off before you actually.

[A]

I mean, I totally. Yes, yes. Comedically. But absolutely. No, it's true. And at the moment, I can't write poetry because the furniture in my room is wrong.

[B]

Well, of course that stopped Shakespeare on so many occasions.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The rushes on the floor were all matted. He couldn't write a play.

[A]

The rushes on the floor.

[B]

He had rushes on the floor. Go on. If you ever stopped on an Instagram post for longer than an hour, you would know these things. Back to the point. We want to be the people who do the things that we admire.

[A]

Yeah, but what is it? What's that distance between the self that I am and the. The idealized person? Why does it have to be another person? Like, why? Because I think it's that we're tr. We can't imagine incorporating a behavior that feels foreign into the self that we are or we can't fully see ourselves or something. All we can do is project this image of this completely different person. Who is the kind of person who does that.

[B]

Yeah. Well, the interesting thing was that the moment when I saw this was a culture nature divide and therefore suitable for this podcast was when you. We were driving. We were still driving. And I was saying, I really want to be that person. And you Said, but wait, do you really want to be that person? And I thought about actually becoming a person who checks texts every hour. And I was like, fuck, no, I do not want to be that person. That is not who I am. Yeah, it was quite shocking. Quite shocking. Are you a person who does not want to. Like, you want to be a poet. I mean, you want to write poems. You are a poet. You want to write poems. You want to be the person who. Do you really want to be the person who wants to write first thing in the morning?

[A]

Do I want to be the person who wants to write? Do I want to be a wanter of thing?

[B]

This is getting incredibly complicated. Let's go back to me, which is how I lost life. Coach. This is getting so complicated. Let's go back to me. No, but sometimes I think we want to be something that our soul yearns for. And when we imagine that, I think there's more of a sense of fit. When I thought about what I was wanting to be with texts, it was a completely socialized demand. Yeah, I only want to be that person so you won't get mad at me anymore, frankly. And other people, but I don't have to cope with them in the same.

[A]

Car, and that's why they rely on me. So I want to be. I don't want to be a poet, but I do want to be someone who gets that feeling when you fit the right words to the impulse or the feeling. And I like that feeling when you do that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then that moment and whatever that little chemical release is, I want that.

[B]

And that's where yours is nature and mine is culture.

[A]

But I need to problematize it.

[B]

You can problematize all you want. I'm fascinated by this breakdown between the things we want. Are they coming from culture or are they coming from nature?

[A]

Yeah, but the onions. I want to stir onions and put garlic in and smell that. I want that equally.

[B]

Okay, now that's an interesting. That's an interesting point then, because I think what I'm doing is trying to make up the qualities of a person or the contents of a person's day according to either a social script of rules or a series of experiences of delight.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So what you were thinking of onion poem. Fitting the right words in. Those are both these bursts, you know, dopamine hits or whatever. And what I'm thinking of. Text my. Check my texts every hour is, please don't hit me, please don't hurt me, please don't hit me. It's like completely fear based and there's no joy in it.

[A]

So what's. What's another one? What's a thing like painter? You want to paint every day, right?

[B]

Yeah, I do. So I don't ever have to think I want to be a person who wants to paint every day. Oh, that was what we figured out, is I want to want to be that person. I want to want it, but I really don't want it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's where the nature came back in. I want to want it, but I don't. But I don't really want it.

[A]

Yeah. And that's actually profound to say that. It's like there's this interim stage of what I.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It's like double removed from the. The thing and it's. It's flimsy.

[B]

It's so fascinating. I mean, I'm sorry, I'm gonna get genuinely life coachy for a minute and think, like, if anybody out there listening has something, you tell yourself, oh, I want to be the person who has XYZ or who does this, that and the other. Write it down. I want to be that person. And then ask yourself, do I really want that or do I just want to want it? Do I want to be the kind of person who wants a lot of money and will work, work, work? Do I want to be the kind of person who wants to exercise every day? You know, there are all these things that we think we should want. We want to want them. And that's. I think all the. The things we genuinely want are nature. If we only want to want them, it's culture.

[A]

Right, but what do I. But if I want to want to exercise every day, that doesn't mean that I don't exercise.

[B]

Right, Right. It's just a different way of formulating who you are and what I think. I think the point is, you know, the whole theme of the show is in culture we come to consensus and in nature we come to our senses. And I think what you're talking about is the difference between wanting something from the consensus view, what you should do, and wanting something from the joy perspective, what I actually do for the feeling of it. So you could be a person who wants to want to exercise. Like, there's someone who's just like, I can't keep my energy at bay. I just jump out of bed and exercise every morning. I couldn't not do it.

[A]

And you think I prancercise.

[B]

I prancercise every morning. So you think I want to want to exercise in the morning. I just don't so that's a socialized thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it doesn't mean you can never exercise. It just means stop thinking.

[A]

Very rarely exercise.

[B]

Very rarely stop thinking. You have to be that person and find a way that your animal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wants to do life.

[A]

Yeah. And that's what I'm trying to sort of get at is if you want to be the person who wants to.

[B]

You're.

[A]

You're creating this cardboard cutout.

[B]

Yeah. Self.

[A]

Right. And that's never real. That's always going to be a two dimensional.

[B]

Right. And. And I don't think you'll ever do it. I. That's why I. After years, I'm. I am talking decades of really trying to be conscientious about checking messages, whether it was voicemails back in the day or whether it's emails or texts. And for years and years, I haven't been able to make myself do it because I don't really want to. And trying to become that person isn't working. Now, I do want to communicate. I don't want people to be left in the lurch. But just wanting to be a different person from the person I am is not working. It's like they can't teach zebras to be ridden like horses very easily. Zebras just don't have the temperament of horses. Why is that funny to you? My God, if you did any of the digging on Instagram that I've done, you just can't. It looks kind of like a horse. Stripey horse, stripey horse, stripey horse. But it turns out they just will not be ridden. And they bite and they hang on. And you can want to turn a zebra into a horse and I do. Paint, paint, paint. Or you can let the zebra be the zebra and the horse be the horse and accept that your fun with your zebra is going to be different from the fun you have with your horse. Let's go back to touching ours.

[A]

No.

[B]

You see what I mean? Like, I'm just. This is literally dawning on me as we speak. I've been wanting to want. I've been wanting to be a person. I've been telling myself I wanted to be a certain kind of person for, like, years and years, but I really don't want to be that person.

[A]

No. You've got stripes.

[B]

I'm a zebra. I got stripes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So now I have to think about my life differently. Given the state of nature, which is. I'm not really a text checker or any other kind of checker. What can I do to not get screamed At. Nobody screams at me. It's just that I feel it like a scream because it's been waiting for two weeks. So sad. I don't want to hurt those people, so I postulate that we're going to have to come out.

[A]

I don't want to check my texts. I don't want to hurt those people. So I postulate, period. That's fine.

[B]

It's worked for me for years. But I really. I am thinking, if your nature doesn't coordinate with culture in some way, how do you. Without losing yourself and wanting to be, literally, a different creature?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How do you meet the need that you have for somehow intersecting with the culture? Because we all want to communicate with other beings and we want to, you know, coordinate our activities and things. There are things you have. Culture is not universally evil. It's the way people manage things together.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So when you want to integrate with culture and it doesn't seem to be your nature, what do you do?

[A]

That is an excellent question. And I think we should return to it right after this. Okay, Marty, here's where it's at. We need to cooperate with culture to a certain extent.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It is inevitable that we will have bank accounts and inboxes. We just will.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And even if we are truly, in our souls, stripey and bitey.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And not horsey, we still have to do horsey things from time to time. But what if that's not our nature? Like, how. How do we do this? How do we parcel up the things that aren't our nature and do them anyway and decide how to be ourselves the rest of the time?

[B]

I think the metaphor of the zebras and the horses is very apt here, and I will tell you for why. You can take an individual zebra or any other kind of animal that is not usually considered tame, and you can tame an individual animal. The only reason that we have domesticated animals is that certain wild animals prove to be able to live with us. There are only, like, nine or 10 species of animal in the large animal stand.

[A]

Us.

[B]

Yeah. That will actually live, reproduce, be happy living around people. They're like 10 species. Cows, horses. Yeah, Go count them. I'm always doing it. Seriously. I do it, like, three times a day. I'm like.

[A]

Instead of when I'm choking my ticks.

[B]

Yes. And the thing about a domesticated animal, a tame animal, is it just lives with humans and coordinates with their schedule all the time. You can't get a zebra. You can tame an individual zebra, but then if it has a baby, you're Going to have to start all over again. Because nature is strong. Nature did not design zebras to be domesticated by humans. Horses fit the category. They can do it barely. Most horses are like a quarter inch away from wild. But like cows, dogs, for heaven's sake, they love us. Those poor creatures.

[A]

They're crazy about us.

[B]

Here's the thing. I think that where we are wild and the culture says you're not doing it the way we do it, the shame based part of us says, I'm supposed to be tame. I want to be a tamed animal or I want to be a domesticated animal instead of I want to be my wild self who will do this thing. I'm a zebra. I can do what a horse does. I can pull a carriage out of the mud or whatever it is and I will do it. But I'm still not a horse. And I don't even want to be a horse. I want to be wild. So I can say, okay, I can set up reminder. That's what I did. You suggested it strongly, quite vigorously that I put on, on my phone a reminder to check that text again later and answer it. Yes. Before the end of the business day. So I did that. And I hated it. I'm not gonna lie.

[A]

No, you didn't at the time.

[B]

Oh no, I didn't lie. I did hate it. That's as you were acting like a horse, Right. I think that's what it is. But for you, part of your nature is like you're a zebra. Actually, your poetry stuff isn't culture.

[A]

No.

[B]

You are a creature who naturally gets joy from certain processes. Like if you were a zebra, the writing of poetry and the touching of onions would be part of your wild nature. And you get caught up where in culture? Because here's the deal. When you sit down to write a poem, you are worried about what people will think when you're thinking about other people reading it. No.

[A]

Nope.

[B]

Oh, tell me more.

[A]

I think no, I don't worry about that until very, very late because it takes forever to find a poem. So I just. Forever. I don't think about other people when I'm writing poetry. But I think that part of my zebra identity is that I also enjoy to a fault imagining all the different kinds of horses I would be if I were one.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

Right. And so I would be a shetton.

[B]

Pony and a Budweiser Clydesdale and a racehorse all in one day. Yes.

[A]

Yes. And I would love it. I think that's it. There's not culture until There is with the writing. There really isn't.

[B]

So that we're operating. You're operating in this way. Touching onions, writing poetry. These are all part of your wild nature and imagining yourself as different animals.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's all part of something that innately brings you joy.

[A]

I think for me, when the culture gets in the way is when I start thinking, if I just design a system snazzy enough, yes, I will be able to do the things I have to do. Which isn't. Which is like the equivalent of you're checking your texts is me figuring out how to make school lunches. Getting up early enough to be compass mentors in the morning to parent properly when I'm not at my most, you know, awake. And, you know, those things are the things that I always think I will. I will perfect a system. So at the moment, I have like a checklist that I do before bed, which is like, there's going to be stuff to defrost for her lunch tomorrow. I'm going to get that out and put it on the thing. I'm going to soak oats. I'm going to, you know, like all those things. And I try to, like, jam those things into the day.

[B]

Yeah. And that's. You want you imagining yourself domesticated.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

As a good, good horse. Because you can do all those things the way a zebra could do horse things, but they are not your true nature at all. And. And we have to intersect with culture if we want Lila to go to school. And you want to be the kind of mom who, like, puts the child's school things at the floor and never thinks about anything else or whatever.

[A]

No.

[B]

You try to make yourself be that person and you design systems to domesticate yourself.

[A]

I want to want to make a school lunch.

[B]

That's exactly it.

[A]

But I don't want to, but I have to.

[B]

That's how I feel about texts. So I like the conclusion. And I think there is one ultimately out there that we find the zebra in ourselves and we see where we're wild and we stop saying, I want to be a horse. I want to be different than I am. What? I was being very earnest. That is earnest.

[A]

We have to stop saying I want to be a horse.

[B]

Do you know what zebras actually do say?

[A]

Just go.

[B]

Like that. That's the sound they make.

[A]

I want to be a horse. Stop saying that. I want to be a horse. Stop it. Stop saying that.

[B]

I want to be a horse. You don't want to be a horse. You want to want to be a horse. But you really don't want to be a horse.

[A]

I think that all that lotion you started stealing was an attempt to become less stripy.

[B]

I became more stripy. And speaking of horse, I sound really hoarse right now, but no. Okay, I'm going back to this because it's real.

[A]

Sorry.

[B]

It's true. Like, acknowledge there are these things we have to do to intersect with culture, but they are not our nature.

[A]

I am a zebra.

[B]

Yes. And stop trying to force yourself to be domesticated. Especially in areas where you've tried and tried and tried and you know, it just doesn't take. And then you have to set up some systems with your loved ones or with your alarms on your phone to say for a few minutes, you know, I'll show up and I'll pull a cart out of the mud because I'm a well meaning zebra who wants to help, but I'm not a horse.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

And as soon as that cart is out of the mud, I am running free across the plains of Africa to buy things and. Yeah. To bite and to kick and to make that sound.

[A]

Do you want to be a horse?

[B]

Who knows what they're saying to each other, but yeah. So that's going to be my takeaway from this. I'm going to stop feeling as guilty and ashamed for not ever being a person who wants to check texts. But I'm going. And I'm going to deal with the fact that I will never be a person who wants to check texts. So when I really need to check texts, I'm going to have to set up some pretty powerful measures to make sure that I get to it.

[A]

Diane, if the mistake we make is in wanting to want to, you don't have to want to.

[B]

Oh, that's a good point. I don't want to anymore. I don't want to check my texts.

[A]

I don't want to wear a saddle. Oh, sorry. That's our personal life.

[B]

You know, you really want to get those stirrups now. Stirrups are coming into it. Every woman who's ever been to the gynecologist is having this same stirrups hang.

[A]

Down from a saddle.

[B]

I know, but they also use them in gynecologists offices when they say, put your feet in the stirrups. It's not a good moment.

[A]

I love that moment.

[B]

I want to be a person who loves that moment.

[A]

I wonder if there are women who go into that and someone's put your feet up in the stirrups. They're like, yes, I love this bit.

[B]

Oh, it's horrifying. Anyway. Yeah, I think freedom from trying to force yourself to want something you don't want is the point of this podcast.

[A]

Yeah, want what you want. I want to be a horse.

[B]

No, you don't. What you really want to do is touch onions and write poetry.

[A]

And that's how.

[B]

That's how you stay wild.

[A]

We hope you're enjoying Bewildered. If you're in the USA and want to be notified when enjoying new episode comes out, text the word wild to 570-873-0144. We're also on Instagram. Our handle is Bewildered podcast. You can follow us to get updates, hear funny snippets and outtakes, and chat with other fans of the show. Bewildered is produced by Scott Forster with support from the Brilliant team at mbi. And remember, if you're having fun, please rate and review and stay wild.

[B]

People are always asking me, how did you get into training life coaches? And the answer is backwards. I did it backwards. That is, I didn't set up a program and then look for people to fill it. It's just that so many people were coming to me for coaching that I realized in order to serve the market, I was going to have to train other people in my methods. That was decades ago. And now the Wayfinder program contains all my very best wisdom and tools for living, boiled down to their savory essence. Now, if that sounds interesting to you, head on over to MarthaBeck.com and find your way.