Playing Without Performing

Summary

Bewildered – "Playing Without Performing"

Hosts: Martha Beck (A), Rowan Mangan (B)
Date: August 12, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this thoughtful and humorous episode, Martha Beck and Rowan Mangan invite listeners to explore the difference between playing and performing, both in creative and everyday pursuits. They put a spotlight on the "controlling voice of the culture"—those internalized critics and expectations that keep us performing for an imaginary audience—while sharing personal stories, insights, and laughter about learning to tune back into our truest, most joyful selves. Listeners are encouraged to identify their own "culture worms," replace internalized critics with loving, supportive voices, and reconnect with the wild, playful spirit at the heart of creative life and community.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The "Culture Worm" and the Generalized Other

• Martha introduces the idea of performing for an “invisible group of people in my head,” often internalized critics representing society’s norms.
• Rowan and Martha playfully coin the term “culture worm,” referring to pervasive messages from culture that infect thought patterns and steal joy.
• The hosts discuss the sociological concept of the “generalized other”—a mental audience we continually answer to—even when alone.
• Not everyone experiences the generalized other the same way; Rowan shares that she largely escapes it when alone, unlike Martha, who was intensely socialized into it.

  "[The] culture wants us to come to consensus. Nature or being wildered makes us want to come to our senses instead of to consensus." (A, 11:16)

• They reflect on how religious and cultural upbringings (e.g., being told “God is always watching”) can deeply ingrain ever-present judgment and shame, leading to difficulty relaxing even in solitude.

2. Aging, Time, and Shifting Internal Narratives

• Rowan humorously laments the experience of perimenopause and menopause, noting:

  "It used to happen to, like, older women...But it just goes to show how much times have changed. Because now these days... it’s happening even to young women like me." (B, 06:14)

• Martha highlights the surprise many feel about aging, though it’s the one universal experience, and notes the opportunities for joy as one matures.

3. Playing vs. Practicing vs. Performing

• Martha describes how her “special interest” in piano (fueled by ADHD) is constantly haunted by performance anxiety and the sense that her time must serve a future performance or audience.
• Rowan reframes the act of “playing” as distinct from “practicing” or “performing”—with playing being a process focused on enjoyment in the present moment, not future validation.

  "Can't you just be playing the piano?" (B, 15:20)

• The hosts debate whether playing, practicing, or performing are opposites. Martha describes her joy in "deep practice"—a state of focused, joyful striving that feels like play.

  "There’s something called the generalized other, where we're always sort of thinking…there's a kind of audience in the back of our minds." (A, 16:29) "We give so little weight to enjoying ourselves in the present without any future investment." (B, 27:55)

4. Replacing Internalized Critics with Loving Voices

• Both hosts explore how their inner critics—their “generalized other”—have shifted over time.
• Martha shares a powerful personal journey of moving from an internal council of judgmental, angry voices to one filled with unconditional love, transforming both her inner experience and her relationships:

  "I realized that…over time, I have managed to do this huge...inner revolution where almost all of them are unconditionally loving." (A, 35:35)

• Rowan notes that her own internal voices can include those she wants to impress, not just critical ones.
• They both underscore the potential for "self-development" as the art of transforming this internal audience from punitive to supportive—a process that can be facilitated by genuine community (like their own Wilder community).

5. Community and “Autopoiesis”

• The hosts reflect on building their online community, Wilder, as a manifestation of a new, supportive "generalized other.”
• They note how longing for connection itself is a form of loving something before it exists and that, with intention, the community one seeks begins to appear in one’s life.

  “Longing is loving something before you believe in it.” (A, 47:21)

• Community is described in terms of “autopoiesis” (self-creation)—asserting that with loving intention, a supportive circle forms "by itself."
• Rowan likens the appearance of one’s “people” to mushrooms appearing in a fairy circle: slow to start, then suddenly everywhere, providing a rich metaphor for how connection grows.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Eat something else. Eat something else, people. Why? They don't even have calories!” (A, after a cautionary mycology workshop, 04:11)
• “The culture wants us to come to consensus. And nature or being wildered makes us want to come to our senses…” (A, 11:16)
• "[When] you're performing, you're literally thinking about the generalized other, whether they're really physically in the room or you're just practicing, because they will be. But when you're playing, it's not a performance. It is for the thing itself." (A, 23:00)
• “Longing is loving something before you believe in it.” (A, 47:21)
• “As I've made this shift, there's a concomitant shift in my view of the entire universe, which just shows my limitation as a primate…When I'm thinking about critical, angry, judgmental people all the time…everything feels dangerous. As I've sort of taken people down from the pyramid…my father…became one of the people holding hands in a circle around the vulnerable.” (A, 38:16)
• "We give so little weight to enjoying ourselves in the present without any future investment." (B, 27:55)
• "You have to be doing something quite hard. Hard for you. Or you can’t." (A, 29:00)

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Important Timestamps

• [02:00–04:50] — Hilarious mushroom mycology anecdote and reflections on why people take risks for little reward.
• [06:10–08:10] — Rowan and Martha discuss the surprises and cultural reframing of aging.
• [10:29–12:44] — Introduction of the “culture worm” and skiing/rumble strip metaphors.
• [15:12–17:39] — Discussion of performance anxiety at the piano and the ever-present “generalized other.”
• [23:00–27:55] — Debating the differences between playing, practicing, and performing; celebrating present-moment enjoyment.
• [35:35–41:47] — Martha describes the transformation of her internal critics and how community (“Wilder”) becomes an internal chorus of support.
• [47:07–48:53] — The concept of longing as a precursor to community; longing as an act of faith in the as-yet-unseen.
• [52:06–53:00] — Martha recounts being labeled "the embodiment of evil" and how her internal "critical audience" once numbered in the millions.
• [53:20–54:00] — The transformative, self-reinforcing nature of authentic, loving community.

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Flow and Tone

The conversation is freewheeling, personal, and often full of laughter—even as it takes on deep psychological and philosophical subjects. With warmth, humility, and wit, Martha and Rowan seek not just to analyze, but to live the shift from cultural overperformance to playful, present, wild selfhood.

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Key Takeaways

• Notice the “culture worm” when you feel you “must” perform for unseen critics; investigate and question its messages.
• The “generalized other” is powerful, but you can rewire it—from an inner punitive audience to a loving, encouraging inner community.
• Play for the joy in the moment; creative, personal, and communal transformation are richest when the present joy is deeply valued.
• Longing for true connection is natural and generative; keep leaning toward what calls to you.
• Building intentional, nonjudgmental community—whether online, in person, or inside your own mind—can become your new sustaining “village” and support genuine self-expression.

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For more information on the Wilder community or retreats, visit wildercommunity.com.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Martha Beck.

[B]

And I'm Rowan Mangan. And this is another episode of Bewildered. It's a podcast for people trying to figure it out.

[A]

And I've been trying to figure out how to deal with the invisible group of people in my head that are often criticizing me for doing, even when I'm all by myself. And it turns out that a lot of people have this experience, but we don't have to be stuck with it.

[B]

The thing about it is that the people who follow you around, they're like, semi imaginary. They often are speaking at you with the disapproving voice of the culture. And what we're talking about today is how to recognize that, how to be free of it, and how to turn towards an imaginary group of people or a real group of people who are loving and accepting and approving and wilder.

[A]

Yeah, see how you like it.

[B]

On Bewildered, we have a lot of conversations about finding our own true nature, and. And we enjoy that a lot. But talking ultimately can't compare with the lived experience of sharing space and time with kindred spirits and actually doing it. Every year, Mari and I bring Bewildered to the Costa Rican jungle for our pure wild self retreats. We call them a culture cleanse, where you can wash off all the shoulds. Learn directly from Martha how to hear that wise voice of your true nature. And we laugh and play and eat amazing food and make lifelong friends. If this sounds like something your soul longs for, listen to it. You can learn [e-mail] hope to see you in the jungle. What are you trying to figure out this week, Marty?

[A]

Well, as you know, we both went to a mycology lecture a little while ago.

[B]

We did.

[A]

It's freezing cold in this beautiful varnish thing.

[B]

It was cold and damp, much as you would expect. A mycology workshop.

[A]

Yeah, should be.

[B]

It was atmospheric.

[A]

Yes. And I was excited to learn about mushrooms because I was hoping that they would, like, pass out psilocybin or something. No such luck.

[B]

That's the bit you don't say out loud. That's the bit that everyone knows when you say, we went to a mycology workshop and then you don't say it because you don't have to, but then you did. That's.

[A]

It's implied in the term mycology workshop. Anyway, there we were, and the teacher was an absolutely brilliant guy. I mean, there are so many fungi in the world that to understand and know them all, you have to be, like, a major genius. As you know, he talked of many, many fungi and At a certain point, well, as he went through, he would show us different mushrooms and things.

[B]

He had a presentation.

[A]

It's the fruiting body of a mycorrhizal.

[B]

The mushroom is the fruiting body.

[A]

Yes. The micro. The fungus is all under. Anyway, my point is, he kept saying things like, well, this one isn't. I wouldn't put it right in the pan. It's kind of leathery, you know, And. And if you don't cook it right on time, the leatheriness turns to slime. So probably not. He kept talking about throwing things in a pan. And then at a certain point, he said, this entire, like, genus of mushroom is deadly poison. Except there's one looks almost exactly like the others. But if you get it right at the right time, you can cook it and eat it, and you'll probably be safe.

[B]

It doesn't taste very good.

[A]

It doesn't taste good, and it's a horrible texture. And if you leave it an hour too long in the fridge, your fridge will be full of black slime. That's just how it is. And then he says, and here's the deal. If you get sick right after eating it, you're probably okay. I mean, you might want to go to the hospital for sure. Yeah, you do. But you're going to be all right if you eat it and you're okay for 48 to 72 hours. But then you start to feel sick. That's the real problem. So you need to go right to the hospital, and they will try to give you a liver transplant. But here's the thing. You can do just as well with milk thistle. You need it intravenously. So they'll try. They'll be pushing the liver transplant.

[B]

Don't listen. Don't listen.

[A]

And you won't be feeling well, but you need to tell them, I want IV milk thistle. And you'll still probably die. He said, but, you know, here's the thing. Liver transplants are dangerous. You could even die. I was like. And the three words that were just screaming in my mind the entire time were, eat something else. Eat something else, people. Why? They don't even have calories.

[B]

Why?

[A]

I don't. I'm trying to figure out why. Why this is a thing I will say, though.

[B]

What was interesting about that morning mycology workshop was I had a very strong need immediately afterwards to go to the store and buy a lot of mushrooms. We did fry them up in garlic and throw them in a pan.

[A]

It was like. It was like a drunk going past a bar. You're like, let's go buy some chanterelles. I don't even know what a chanterelle is. I do now, actually. But, yeah, we bought a heap in helping.

[B]

I don't think you ever ate your lion's mane.

[A]

No, I bought a lion's mane thinking I'm so inspired. And it's probably a fridge full of slime now, but as long as I don't feel bad for 72 hours, I have time to gather milk thistle before I eat it.

[B]

Imagine being pressured, peer pressured by your surgical team to have a liver transplant. Being like, no, this is not necessary. This is not medically necessary.

[A]

You can't be feeling well anyway. What are you trying to figure out?

[B]

I just. The usual sort of stuff about, like, time rolling on, getting older and just how times change, you know? Like, for instance, what's so interesting to me is when I was younger, men, perimenopause, menopause, that sort of stuff, it used to happen to, like, older women,

[A]

you know, like women of a certain age.

[B]

Of a certain age, yeah. But it just goes to show how much, like, times have changed. Because now these days, like, I'll tell you, Marty, these sort of things are happening even to young women like me.

[A]

I know. Practically adolescent women like you.

[B]

Women like me. It's so wild. It's just. It's probably like the hormones they put in our food or something.

[A]

That's right. That's right. Get your period early, you hit menopause at 18, you got a short winning to procreate.

[B]

Yeah. So that's about it. I'm just like. I'm pondering. There's a Joni Mitchell line where she says, we look like our mothers did now when we were. Those kids age, right? And you do that, that you try to do the math of. That's what they looked like to me when I was still me, but less so. And now I'm that, but I'm not. I'm me.

[A]

Right. The weirdest. One of the weirdest things about aging, in terms of people's psychological reaction to it, is that everyone is surprised to do the one thing that is for sure. I'm older.

[B]

I'm not surprised about aging. I just am surprised to experience it myself. I am totally cool with everyone else.

[A]

Who was it who said, I know that death is inevitable. I just thought that in my case there would be an exception.

[B]

It's true.

[A]

It's so weird. I've known this forever, and yet, as it happens to me, I'm like, oh, my God, I am completely befuddled and surprised by this fresh hell that greets me every morning.

[B]

And yet it is a blessing, is it not?

[A]

I guess so. In the sense that you're not yet to the age where you're like, oh, the apocalypse is coming and everything is horrible. Good luck, kids. There is a certain sense of, oh, my.

[B]

No, that's a massive bummer. I'm sorry.

[A]

No, no, it's not, though. It's not a massive bummer because you get more and more joyful as you age. And some people don't like aging. Right. But we are at a time in history when it's potentially a really good thing.

[B]

All right, let's do a podcast.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Hi there. I'm Ro, and I'll be your podcaster for today. Do you know how to tip your podcaster? It's actually pretty easy. You can write our pod with lots of stars, all your stars. You can review it with your best superlatives. You can even subscribe or follow Bewildered, so you'll never miss an episode. Then, of course, if you're ready to go, all in. Our paid online community is called Wilder, a sanctuary for the bewildered. And I can honestly say it's one of the few true sanctuaries online. You can go to wilder community.com to check it out. Rate, review, subscribe, join, and you all

[A]

have a great day now. So we talk a lot on the podcast about coming to our senses, which sounds like you could do it by yourself, but weirdly, it isn't.

[B]

No, you actually can't do it alone. And I think especially right now when everything out there feels very polarized and overwhelming and noisy. Yeah, people really often don't have a place where they can just go and be completely themselves. So.

[A]

And that's why we started Wilder, which is our online community. And it's for people who really want kindness and connection and belonging without the strident, divisive argument that seems to be everywhere these days.

[B]

Yeah. In Wilder, we explore a new theme every month to help us stay in touch with our true nature. And there are all these live events on Zoom that are so fun from like, body doubling, co working, parties, meditations,

[A]

teaches meditations and classes.

[B]

Marty does Earth School, which is brilliant, and frequent meditations that we do together. And it is just a group of people who are the best. So if you've ever listened to this podcast and thought, I wish I could go deeper with this, or I wish I could talk to more people about these kinds of ideas, Wilder is where that happens.

[A]

It really is. So if you want to Come join [e-mail] we would love to see you there.

[B]

So what we wanted to talk about today is, well, as we often talk about on Bewildered, the ways that the culture worms its way into our thinking and takes a lot of the joy out of life by making everything into a whole production. And I mean that in many senses.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You, for instance, recently had one of these. You caught one. You caught a little culture worm.

[A]

This is what's happening a lot. We're catching culture worms. Like the more.

[B]

Did we just coin a phrase.

[A]

It's pretty disgusting on a culture worm. But you want to get rid of them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I hope they're not like those zombie worms. But I digress.

[B]

No. Yeah.

[A]

Don't Google it. It's terrifying. Okay.

[B]

No one was going to.

[A]

All right. These little culture worms. The further we get, we actually are doing this for those who have not heard this before. The culture wants us to come to consensus. And nature or being wildered, wildered makes us want to come to our senses instead of to consensus. So we're trying to. We're doing this like we practice what we preach. And what happens then is it's like you're going along smoothly and everything's fine, and then you feel something in your brain catch on, something difficult. Maybe a lot of people out there don't ski, but that's exactly what it's like. You're skiing along and you're sliding down the snow and you hit a rock and it like practically takes your leg off. Your ski just stops and you either crash or you have some serious rebalancing to do. And that's what we've been doing, rebalancing.

[B]

And so recently you were playing a piano.

[A]

Yes, that is what we were talking about. Because I do not think I am neurotypical with this.

[B]

I don't think anyone thinks that, love.

[A]

And so I have this thing called special interests. I now know it's a thing because I have adhd. And paradoxically, one of the symptoms of ADHD is, which is attention deficit, is very, very intense attention. I used to think that that made it stupid, but it's kind of true.

[B]

Maybe there's a comma. Maybe it's attention deficit.

[A]

Deficit. It's just like a catch all deficit. Yeah. And so there are these special interests that kick in. Or maybe that's autism. Once it's my special interest, I will know. I decided that I would plink around a little on the piano and then it seized hold of me. And now that's all I want to do all the time. And I'm terrible at it. I mean, I'm legit terrible. I learned, I taught myself as an adult. I have no natural capacity. My fingers are tiny and stubby like the paws of a groundhog. I mean, it's not good. Blinky, plinky, plinky. And I have horrible performance. Performance anxiety. So it's not like I'm ever going to entertain anyone. No one. What the f am I doing with my life? I am too old to take up piano and do my 10,000 hours in time to, like, bye, kids. No, I shouldn't be learning the piano at my age.

[B]

Yeah, that's right. And that's how the culture worm speaks.

[A]

That's how it got me. Because I was zip, zip, zip.

[B]

And suddenly, you know what's better than skiing? Because I don't ski and I'm scared of skiing. And the idea of hitting a rock and taking my leg off, it's just not. Doesn't. Doesn't work for me as a metaphor. But you have talked about rumble strips and that I do believe they're the

[A]

sort of corduroy texture on the road off to the side.

[B]

Corduroy texture.

[A]

I love that corduroy. Yeah.

[B]

No, it's right. It's brilliant.

[A]

You're on the road and the sound of your wheels. Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy. Right? It's not. So let the sound of your wheel drive crazy. And then suddenly a terrible sound and a rumble because you've hit the corrugated asphalt on the side of the road, which is there to keep you from straying out of your lane.

[B]

Yeah. And it's like, so as we kind of rid ourselves of these culture worms, we sort of spend more time. But then, like, you just lose. Lose your. Your wildness for a second and then like, and you gotta just nudge yourself back. And we are lucky because we both think about this stuff and so we can remind each other.

[A]

True.

[B]

But we bring this to the listener today to say, look out for a culture worm. And let's talk about why you might want to play the piano.

[A]

Let's do tak about it. Plinkety, plink. That's all I can think about. I got completely non verbal.

[B]

So the culture would say that you have to practice the piano, right? That's what you do when you're alone with the piano, is you practice for the. The time when you're going to play it for others. Right. And. But can't you just be playing the piano?

[A]

You Know, actually, that is. You're like a good therapist. This leg cracked open a whole thing. Because when I'm sitting there at the piano, I literally. My brain is like, who will I have to play it for? And I go through different people, like, oh, no. And I get all embarrassed and tense as if they're in the room, they're not in the room. That's fascinating, adding, but I'm always thinking, well, I'm gonna have to do it in front of somebody. Who shall it be? Maybe Lila wouldn't mind. No, she will not mask her scorn. I have, like, it's. And then I get to the end of Plinkety Plink for like, however many hours I, like, have free. And there's no one I wanna play it for.

[B]

But have you had a good time?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I think there is a part of our social primate nature that does that. There's something called the generalized other, where we're always sort of thinking, you know, when we make a moral choice or when we decide to, I don't know, clean a room or not clean it. There's a kind of audience in the back of our minds. There's just a few people usually, but it feels like everyone. It's called the generalized other. And maybe a culture worm kicks in when the generalized other, like, we start to. Maybe we can get away from the generalized other. And we have to do that in order to. To get out of the culture worm zone.

[B]

So you're saying that there's like six people that we've turned into our whole world. Are they always in the room, though? Are they in the room with us right now?

[A]

Maybe. I mean, they're at the back of our minds and there is like. You can be all by yourself and do something accidental and feel embarrassed about it. You're not embarrassed. I mean, there's nothing to be embarrassed about unless there's someone watching. Unless you are in some way judging and judging how you would look to another.

[B]

I don't think I do that.

[A]

Really.

[B]

I genuinely don't think I do that.

[A]

That's fascinating.

[B]

I'm so aware of when I'm alone, and I have spent so much time alone that I don't think my generalized other is in the room for that. I really don't. Like, I know what you're talking about and I do experience it, but. And I know what you mean with the piano thing, because that totally perform makes sense. As you is. You sort of imagine a context in which that could happen.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But I'm so interested that you could get embarrassed by something you do when you're in a room by yourself.

[A]

This is amazing because, number one, I've talked to many people about the generalized other, and they usually have one, almost always. I thought it was universal.

[B]

I do have one.

[A]

Right. But this explains so much about you to me because, for example, you just, like, hauled on over here from Australia and hog hauled.

[B]

Do not hold yourself away.

[A]

Yeah. And you came to America and you're hanging out with Karen and with me and you're like, well, this is good. Let's have a. Let's. We all decided.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Let's have a thruffle arrangement. And for Karen and me, we were, like, just living off in the boonies. It wasn't that huge a shift for us, and yet it was a huge shift. But you to be able to say, that sounds good. It's completely countercultural. And it's something that a lot of people would think was strange and you didn't. But you never carried that into the relationship. You were without shame and without judgment of yourself and us. And actually that's what allows it all to work.

[B]

But I'm super embarrassed about it when I have to talk about it in public.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Just when you're alone. Yeah.

[A]

No, the generalized others. Not there. And yeah. Many cultures, especially religious and to some extent cultural, like Southern girls or whatever, they train people specifically to be ashamed even when they're alone. The whole idea is to inject the jailer into one's own brain or into your children's brains so that they will always do what the jailer wants them to do. Because, well, that's the whole God thing. God is watching you.

[B]

But then when do you rest?

[A]

You know, you don't. You don't. You rest in God because God is always watching you and he loves you so much that he will kill you for sinning. And he's a he what?

[B]

Like, okay, we're, like, blowing each other's minds when. So I'm autistic and when I. And so when I'm in social scenarios and I'm masking, it's very tiring for me. It's fine, but it's not easy and it's tiring. And afterwards I need to recharge. And so I have this lifelong feeling of the intense relief of closing the front door at the end of the day or my bedroom door, I guess if I'm living with other people and just being like. And it all falls away and I'm just like, in this horror of pity for people who don't get to close that door and take off all the masks and the robes of the culture. And just.

[A]

Like, it sounds silly, but there's a children's Christmas song about Santa. He sees you when you're sleeping. He knows when you're awake. He knows if you've been bad or good.

[B]

Exception. Like, obviously, Santa's there with me every night. I don't mean like.

[A]

And he's very critical of my piano skills, I have to tell you. But, no, that's amazing to me because I really was trained to think, yes, there is an omnipotent being that is watching your thoughts very critically.

[B]

That's so wild.

[A]

Don't you dare have a wrong one.

[B]

Now I just want to poll everyone to find out which camp do people fall? Because we've never.

[A]

I bet you're in a very unusual camp.

[B]

I don't believe so, because I really think you're right, that religion is a big part of it.

[A]

But I mean, the term generalized other. Maybe it's because it's sociology. That was done eons ago when I was but a child, but I literally did study things that said, no, everyone has this generalized other. And what's interesting is you think it's everybody in the world, but it's usually like four to six people.

[B]

Yeah. And that, I believe, probably is universal. And I identify with that. I just don't believe that they were saying that the generalized other is in the room with you at all times. Like, I don't think that's universal.

[A]

It's part of the way you think at a certain. Yeah, I don't know. I would have to go see the studies. I would need to see the studies as soon as they updated. But, no, it is fascinating to me that I have that and you don't.

[B]

So we were talking to my father about songwriting and the process of writing songs and playing music, and he. I can't remember what we were asking him, but he's like, just don't forget that it's called playing the guitar for a reason.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I feel like that's kind of part of what we're.

[A]

What.

[B]

What we're dissecting with what the. Like, whether it's our generalized other or the. The culture worm or. Or whatever it is that gets in there and stops us from doing things for their own sake.

[A]

Well, I love that. I. I love the parallel of playing and performing. I've never thought of those as being antonyms, like each other's opposite. But when you're performing, you're literally Thinking about the generalized other, whether they're really physically in the room or you're just practicing, because they will be. But when you're playing, it's not a performance. It is for the thing itself. Right. And that's so I, the opposite of. Because I, I, I.

[B]

No, no, hang on. I, I wanna. This is such an us thing to be arguing about. I don't think the opposite of playing is performing. I think the opposite of playing is practicing. Because I think you can play, and I think if you're performing, you can be playing at a certain level.

[A]

Oh, right. If you're a master. Yeah.

[B]

You know, it can be play on stage. And probably ideally it would be. But I think that practicing and playing are the opposites with the musical instrument, because to me, those are two, like, those diametrically opposed.

[A]

That's so weird, because practicing and playing, to me are the same thing. I love to practice. It's the performance that scares me.

[B]

But what are you practicing for? Like, it's, it's, There is a practicing for. You can't just practice.

[A]

I think this has something to do with the difference between dedicated practice and sort of rote practice. All right, so follow this here. There is a point here. Okay? Rote practice is when you repeat something over and over again, trying to get it better every time. Okay. Dedicated practice is, is a different way to practice. And they actually found it when they started studying kids in music conservatories to find out which one of them were geniuses and were their brains different. And they found that their brains were exactly the same at the beginning, but they practiced differently. So the ones that did rote practice, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, they improved. But the ones who did deep practice, and this is the way it happens, and this is what feels like play to me. This is in art, in writing and everything. You find something that inspires the hell out of you that you could actually not do, and you think, I want to make that sound or I want to make that image. And you try as hard as you can, you're incredibly focused. And if you come close to it, the sense of exquisite joy is like nothing, nothing else. It's delicious, delicious, delicious. And that's, for me, that's the payoff. And that's called dedicated to practice. And kids who do it that way get better faster, Fair.

[B]

Like, but it's that, that's just semantics. It's like whoever did that called it dedicated practice. Why didn't they call it play? You know, it doesn't matter. I'M just saying that the expectation for practicing is that you're practicing in preparation for a moment. And I'm saying that moment doesn't have to exist. You can still be, like, getting better and better at one piece. I just think that the. The play vibe makes it about right now. And that's the thing that I think is so key with this. Any of these culture worms that are like, why. Why are you doing this? Why are you wasting time on this? What's it for? If it's. It has to be for something you're practicing, it's okay that you're spending time in music because it's for something that will edify people, bring money, give me prestige, give whatever power, wealth, and status. Yeah. Whereas play is just in the moment, and it's just for the sound of the notes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And you could. It's interesting. This is actually. I know it is just semantics, but it's parsing in different ways in my mind right now. And I'm realizing that this. This what's been defined as deep practice, and I think of it as play. It's. I think that is the treasure. I think that is the goal. That is because I think we were talking earlier about aging. When you look back on your life, if you were good enough to perform and get applause and stuff, that might be a really good memory. But damn the moments when you transcend your own ability to make something beautiful. And the sound you've made or the image you've made or the phrase you've thought of is like. Is just pure beauty. You don't have to share that with anybody else. That is like the thing itself, you know? Yes, yes.

[B]

But why does it have to be. At the end of your life, you're looking back, and those are the moments. Why can't they just be the moments? What if you completely forget everything and it's. You never look back on it, and it just becomes the ordinary feeling of a Thursday morning at home, you know? And. And it doesn't have to be for looking back on your life. It doesn't have to be. Do you know what I mean? I'm just pushing back because it's kind of interesting to note that we give so little weight to enjoying ourselves in the present without any future investment.

[A]

Yeah, that's true. But I have to say, like, I'm very much enjoying talking about playing the piano because I'm feeling. I'm getting out of the culture zone. I'm getting away from the rumble strip, which is covered with worms in this Very mixed metaphor.

[B]

Yeah, it's fascinating.

[A]

Culture worms all over the rumble strip.

[B]

Maybe the worms are the thing. That's what I was thinking.

[A]

They're very tough worms. Don't put them right in a pan. They're very leathery.

[B]

Nice callback.

[A]

Thank you. So I love this idea, this exquisite moment. You have to be deeply, deeply present to experience it. You have to be doing something quite hard. Hard for you. Or you can't.

[B]

Don't enjoy yourself. You have to be very present. It has to be so hard.

[A]

Don't.

[B]

Just have fun and enjoy the moment. Okay, well, what is fun?

[A]

What. What feels fun to you? Like, just.

[B]

And all I'm saying is you immediately went. You have to.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I just. That's all. I mean, it's not that. It's not that I disagree. It's just that these. There's these little rum. I just want to interrogate the rumble strips. It's not about you.

[A]

My brain is full of worms, man. A certain high government official.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

I like this. But please be gentle to me. You're mocking my culture boundness.

[B]

I'm so sorry.

[A]

Just because I was raised with an omniscient God judging every single thought I ever thought.

[B]

I know. I'm. I'm sad that happened to you.

[A]

Send me an olive branch.

[B]

Mind you. I. I was raised, like, by myself in a room, just going, oh, no one's here. Just. Just little me.

[A]

Oh, so, you know, there's.

[B]

And cons each one. At least you had a God. At least you had some company from your generalized other.

[A]

Must be nice. Sorry, sorry. Privilege check for sure. Oh, my God. Seven siblings that were crawling everywhere.

[B]

Brain worms.

[A]

But. So if we're just thinking everything is about the present moment and the exquisiteness of deep presence, we can't even talk about playing the piano right now because we're not playing the piano right now. Now we're doing a podcast. Then we have to find the deep pleasure here and not even think about anything else but making the podcast and find the deep pleasure and not care that it's a kind of performance. Oh, yeah, riddle me that.

[B]

It's. Listen, I'm gonna say doing this doesn't always feel like play because they're in the room. The generalized other is in the room right now. Who's yours? Like, what does yours.

[A]

That's a good idea. Yeah, bring it up. I think it shifts a bit. It depends on who's. But I will have long conversations in my mind with people I haven't seen for Ages. Defending what I'm doing at that very moment.

[B]

Well, and I know with writing books, it's a really big thing for you, like, who are you writing to? Who's in your. Who's reading over your shoulder is one way we put it. Like, as you're writing.

[A]

But, for example, okay, there's someone I haven't seen in the flesh for probably five years, and I'm gonna see if

[B]

I can guess who it is.

[A]

Oh, you will. When Lila was born, he was very curious to see who was gonna be the male influence on her life. And then we had the pandemic, so nobody came or left. So the only real figure in her life who is male is her brother Adam, who has down syndrome, and then the dog Bilbo, who is a fine gentleman and I think a very good influence on a young girl.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

But this friend of mine really was like, no, you've got to put her in with some men.

[B]

Put her in with some men. Put her in there with some men.

[A]

Throw some men into the enclosure, because otherwise she can't grow up normal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I sometimes argue with him about how a lot of men were raised by women on their own or in groups of women, but virtually no one. Well, that's not true. Some people were raised just by men, like, from birth all the way to adulthood, just men. But it's very rare. It's not at all rare for people to have been raised just by women. My takeaway was I'm not sure that she's that, like, you know, disadvantaged. We love. I mean, we have lovely men that are in our garden. I'm like, where are the men? Oh, they're mostly taking out the old generator equipment. Okay, well, that's enough to socialize a child.

[B]

So as the listener can. Can appreciate, Marty's generalized others and her relationship with them is very intense, very real, very present. And that's lovely.

[A]

I argue. I argue with. Do you argue with people?

[B]

I argue with you a lot.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. Do you know when I do it, I do it after you've cleaned the kitchen and then you've gone to bed and I'm down there getting snacks. About how much you criticizing me for, like, not doing a good enough job keeping the kitchen clean after you'd cleaned it and. No, no, you wouldn't like it because I get very strident.

[A]

I'm like, listen, I'm good at this.

[B]

I know what I'm doing. There's no.

[A]

They're not going to be ants because of this.

[B]

I'll be like, Look, I'm soaking.

[A]

Has to soak. And you know that.

[B]

Yeah, that's. That's mostly my thing, is, like, the people generalized.

[A]

I think that's horrible. It's like, I'm your God. Oh, dear. That's. That's not good. You need to get bewildered for sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is there anybody else? Yeah.

[B]

All right, let's think. I mean, we do have to think about it in terms.

[A]

I would like to just invite our audience because I'm concerned about that we're performing. Think of your own generalized other. See, there it happened. An anonymous generalized other person. It just is kind of this faceless being who comes running up and says, I heard your podcast. And I'm like, did we do it well?

[B]

So your generalized other is one person with, like, the head of your fifth grade teacher, the right arm of that guy who looked at you on the train funny once. Your disappointed father's left knee.

[A]

Right. It's like a Mr. Potato Head of all the critical influences.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, like, okay, so do I.

[B]

So I have my dad. I have. It's funny because I have positive ones as well. I have people that I want to impress.

[A]

Oh, I do, too.

[B]

Right. And that's. I don't know if that's the same thing.

[A]

Oh, so many. Yes. Yes, absolutely. Okay, here's the big deal. Do they approve of you or don't they, in general?

[B]

So am I arguing with them, or am I blowing their minds with how cool I am? That's the question, right? Yes.

[A]

I realized that I used to have almost completely critical voices, and over time, I have managed to sort of do this huge. And I'm just now figuring this out, this huge, almost inner revolution where almost all of them are unconditionally loving.

[B]

Now, that is so freaking cool.

[A]

And they were not. They did not love me. They were angry at me. They did not like me, and they thought I was just bad in every way. And I lived with that for, I don't know, 35 years before it started shifting.

[B]

Is this what, like, self development actually is, is transforming your generalized other from a judgmental Frankenstein's monster to a loving Frankenstein's monster?

[A]

I think it is. And in fact, that might be the process of bewildering. Bewildering. It may be that very thing. To replace the generalized audience that is negative and critical with the generalized audience that is unconditionally loving and accepting, no matter what.

[B]

Okay, all right. So here's how I'm thinking. All right, So I immediately said, my father. Would your father have been on your list at any time.

[A]

Oh, at any time, yes.

[B]

So here's my little theory. I think that my dad is there not as my dad, but as the father figure of the patriarchy. You know, that one is always trying and failing to impress adequately the Platonic

[A]

ideal of the father. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And like, as inexorably, the patriarchy dissolves into the pool. And the kind of the pool this is. Google it. Marty's got a couple of YouTube videos about it. Make sure you watch the 2024 one. The lighting is better. And. And. And we dissolve the patriarchy. It collapses into itself and. And we become the village, which you could say matriarchy, because what I've read that describes it is it's not about putting a woman on top of the pyramid. It's about matriarchy. Looks like the adults standing in a circle facing outwards with all the vulnerable people in the middle of the circle and being protected. And so maybe that's the process that you're talking about where you transform your generalized other from the judgmental father figure to the embracing, whether it's mother or, you know. But it does have that kind of family, like, does intimacy sort of feeling to it.

[A]

It is very intimate. And it's so. It's fascinating. As I've. As I've made this shift, there's a concomitant shift in my view of the entire universe, which just shows my limitation as a primate. When I'm thinking about critical, angry, judgmental people all the time and being explicitly told, that's God, everything feels dangerous all the time. And as I've sort of taken people down from the pyramid, my father used to be there as a very, very critical, judgmental force. Then he died. And interestingly, I had a sense of his presence there that was completely different from anything else I'd ever experienced when he was alive. And it shifted from criticism to love. Even though I was in the middle of a book tour for a book I wrote about that did not. It criticizes him quite roundly in many ways. So it was very unexpected. So that was like a pivot point, and it took the patriarch down from the pyramid and he became one of the people holding hands in a circle around the vulnerable. The moment he died, I don't. I mean, it was a very sort of paranormal experience. I didn't know he'd died. I woke up in the middle four in the morning and just felt this protective presence of him. Anyway, sorry, I didn't mean to go all paranormal there, but I just wanted to make the Point that there are these archetypes and they tend to be gendered. But the thing about the patriarchy is it always does try to put someone who is very male identified, who's very much the control, dominion, force, power, Whether it's a man or a woman.

[B]

Yeah, that's not the point.

[A]

And when you switch from criticism and force to looking for people who are loving generalized others, you automatically start creating the circle, the matriarchal circle of protection and love and total acceptance.

[B]

And then you kind of have, like, have a cheer squad walking around with you.

[A]

You do. And you know what I just realized? Sorry, this might be just too self involved, but like, we created this community online. Wilder, short for Bewildered. And that is so strongly the vibe. That is such a strong vibe. And it's become part of my generalized other.

[B]

I just realized, oh, my God, me too, deeply. Oh, wow. And it's such a great. Like, we mostly see these people on Zoom. And so it's like the Zoom screen is like a really great representation of the generalized other. Right?

[A]

It is.

[B]

It's just like the rows of people. And this is so true because Wilder is like where we talk to our audience of this podcast. And it is. It's like the love.

[A]

The love. And it's exciting because it means that this whole shift from performance to play, from constant anxiety and embarrassment to complete relaxation and all of that is something that you can do as a creative project. You can actually start, like, you can take. I don't think I could have taken the threat of my father down off the top of the pyramid in my mind just by saying I wanted to do it. He was there. Right?

[B]

That's a culture worm. That's like.

[A]

And I want to talk about other people too, because it's not just about our dads, but.

[B]

And our therapists can deal with most

[A]

of this, but by deciding that we wanted to go create a circle and using. We were somewhat isolated. Pandemic, blah, blah, blah. And then the technology became available and we were like, well, let's make a community. And it's a deliberate act of creativity that results in. In the creation of a village. And now I will use a big word, autopoiesis. The weird thing is, if you come to it with a. With the intention of making that happen and you try all the different things, because we've tried many different things to create that. It's kind of been a theme for us.

[B]

Yeah. To make our village, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And if you. If you keep your intention strong and you keep working when it forms. It forms by itself. It's one of those. There's a saying in spirituality you will not find. Supposedly the God force says, you will never find me by looking for me, but if you do not look for me, you will never find me. So the idea is you're looking, you're sort of groping for what is going to replace this torment in your mind. And because you have been socialized to it, you don't have a model of what else can happen. But as you keep trying different things. The wonderful thing about this online community is it is its own thing. Like, these people are equals. There's not a sense of us controlling it or trying to make them be a certain way. Autopoiesis means that which creates by itself.

[B]

Yeah. Or another way of saying it is that which hangs out by itself with itself. That which hangs out.

[A]

That which hangs out on a poiesis is that which hangs out with itself in the fridge. It sounds like a mushroom thing. That's all I'm saying. So this turns out to be my little epiphany of the day. Find the places where you're performing and not doing it for the thing itself. Remove that, put some love in its place, and what you have is a life full of the present, moments of exquisite joy, of learning, of playing.

[B]

Yeah. And can I say something about the time of longing that I certainly had before we created Wilder, before, you know, while that intention was kind of forming and brewing? Because I know that, like, we hear from people in Wilder and elsewhere a lot, that it's like, I'm really trying. Yeah. And where. Where are they? What's going on? And I was saying to you a couple of days ago that I'm just finally in this point where my people are popping up. And they are popping up. Excuse me, but they really are popping up like mushrooms.

[A]

A circle of mushrooms.

[B]

A mushroom. Mushrooms.

[A]

Very circle. Oh, your Irishness is coming out. This is great. Unpack that for the people.

[B]

Very well. Very well. No, well, mushrooms aside, because it's.

[A]

It's too much metaphor around where the stumps of trees used to be, because the nutrients are there, so they pop up in rings overnight, and they're called fairy circles.

[B]

All I'll say is, do not step in a fairy circle. Okay? Don't follow the music. If you hear the music, do not follow it. Do not tell a fairy your name and never say thank you to a fairy, because it implies a debt. And listen, I cannot stress this enough. Do not step inside the fairy circle. But if you do, wildercommunity.com if you

[A]

do intravenous milk thistle.

[B]

Intravenous milk thistle. I just thought you were going to leave it at intravenous milk. And I was just like that's such

[A]

a kind of Irish. Too gross.

[B]

No bad. So this is the analogy I used with you was that I felt like for years and years through pandemic, through being in a kind of area that wasn't really gelling for whatever reason, my longing for community. I was stretching a rubber band, right? And I stretched it and stretched it and stretched it with pure longing. And I did. And now mixed metaphor, the maximum of face by it. Mushroom, mushroom, mushroom, mushroom.

[A]

And I think, I actually think that, okay, So I can't help it. I go to procedural, functional stuff. You run around the world, you're always trying to perform well. You're always answering to a critical generalized other. It means that you don't let yourself play and you're always trying to do things that are proactive and culture pleasing and everything and life is yucky. But you don't know what else to turn to. So you need community. You following this because you need to change the generalized other in your mind from a totalitarian oppressive force to an all accepting loving force. But you don't know how that happens.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So what you have for a while between knowing you need something and it's autopoiesis or self forming, you have longings. Because longing is loving something before you believe in it.

[B]

Longing is loving something before you believe in it.

[A]

And this is what I can tell you after many, many, many, many years, that a genuine sense of longing. It's always. There's always something waiting on the other side. There is all. You may not have exactly the picture of what it really wants to be, but it wants to be. Because say what you want about the present moment, part of us can slither forward in time and feel what wants to happen. And that's another word for longing. It's what wants to happen. And there are things that I. Things that are absolutely impossible that I longed for and they've all started, they've all happened. I don't even know if I have any left that haven't.

[B]

But don't you think they happen more and faster as we are able to, I don't know, reduce the rumble strips to raise the matriarchy. Mushroom the dudat and the what's in.

[A]

I do think that the more we free ourselves from culture, the more we take down the critical voices from the pyramid, the more free we are to experience the autopoiesis of the thing we longed for.

[B]

Yeah. And we keep turning towards the thing we long for rather than actively turning away or trying to bring down those other figures because they just don't, you know, it's not about giving them attention.

[A]

So who else was just for shits and giggles, because I want to see the structure of this. Who else did you like? We're talking about replacing the generalized other, and we talked about our dads, but who else is in there? I'm in there criticizing you for the kitchen.

[B]

The kitchen.

[A]

Okay, yeah, point taken. But who else is in or was in the critical generalized other? And who has replaced it or did you have to replace it at all?

[B]

I have mean girls from school.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I have a teacher from school.

[A]

You still argue with that teacher?

[B]

No, the teacher is one of. Is in the category of I want to impress them. But it's. It's like that's a fence. That's an edge case. Because it's like. But you can get it wrong real easy, you know, so that's. That's that one. It's like the trick where you're transitioning from the judgmental to the approving mean girls from school is probably the easiest one for me to pull up.

[A]

Yeah, I had all the Mormons.

[B]

All the Mormons. Literally all the Mormons in the bathroom with you.

[A]

Yes, yes. It was quite an experience. No, but, like, for example, there was a guy that came to meet me because he'd grown up Mormon and he'd been told that I was the embodiment of evil. And our third person, Karen, this before you came into the relationship, but she was teaching social work, and she met him. He was a student, and he knew who she was. And he actually said his family had not wanted him to come to the program at Arizona State University because he would interact with my partner, and it was too dangerous for him to be around someone who was around me because that was how evil it was. And he decided that he was going to look evil in the face. So he asked if he could come for lunch. And Karen said sure, of course, because Karen always says sure. So she said, okay, there's this guy that's coming to see you because he believes you're the embodiment of evil, and he wants to see if he has the courage to encounter you face to face. And so he came over and I made cookies. You know, what does the embodiment of evil do if you're Mormon? You make cookies. And he told me that I was the Embodiment of evil. And he sat at the table shaking like a chihuahua and almost, at a certain point, almost had a seizure. I think he said he did almost. Anyway, he toughed it out. He survived, he left. I don't remember his name, but sometimes I still argue with him. It's not so much arguing with him as like, I'm just like, really, really, really. I'm the, like, look around, I'm the evil as there is sometimes I think about that. So he like, those voices were very, very loud for a long time.

[B]

Like, in fairness, we're talking about like hypothetical potential judgment and you're talking about actual, literal, terrifying, life threatening judgment that happened to you. So it's not exactly like that.

[A]

Yeah, you know, it was a very interesting. It was a very stuck.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Generalized other. I mean, and there was a heap in helping of them. They weren't. There weren't just six, there were a lot of people. And I generalized it to millions, literally millions of people who believed in that belief system that I had been destructive toward and therefore had defined me as evil. So there was that whole thing, that whole pyramid was there. And. Yeah. I only in the past few years have really started to see that dissolve to level, to level. And I think it is because I have another community now. Yeah. Because I've had lovely, incredible, wonderful people in my life. I'm so blessed. But I never had like a crowd. And it's not like we have thousands of people in this community, but it is a pretty good sized village. And then that's my new generalized other.

[B]

And it's so interesting how abundance breeds abundance as well. Like, we started wilder, we found this cool core of incredible humans that we love spending time with. And then the, you know, the little. And we started like you've got two close friends living locally that you hang out with now.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

That was not the case. No, it's in any of the time that I've known you.

[A]

It's so wild. It is really weird how these things fall. Like, we think that our minds follow the progress of the external events of our lives, but I really think it's

[B]

the other way around.

[A]

Yeah, it's. Our external events follow the shifts in our minds, in our consciousness.

[B]

Totally. I feel like this is one that we're gonna. To be continued, Right? Yeah, this is a big juicy one. Yeah.

[A]

Because I'm gonna be taking. I'm gonna be like noticing who pops up to have an argument with me. Some person who's been dead for 20 years and I'm just doing battle with them in the kitchen as I clean.

[B]

Yeah, but turn towards what you long for.

[A]

Yeah, turn towards what you long for. Look for your village. And in the meantime, play the piano.

[B]

Aw. Because in playing the piano, that's how we're gonna stay wild. Thanks for being a bewildered listener. I want to take a moment to formally invite you to join our online community, Wilder, which is where Marty and I go when we need to come to our senses. Wilder is the best place in the world to connect with other people who are trying to live by their true nature and not by the culture. Find [e-mail] Meanwhile, Bewildered Podcast is recorded at Upstate Podcast Studio. It's edited by Scott Forster and only exists because of the incredible team at Martha Beck, Inc. Please rate us, review us, join the Wilder community. And don't forget, stay wild.

[A]

Hello, the lovely peoples. This is Marty, Martha, inviting you to a free masterclass that I have made called Five Paths to youo Purpose. Probably the most common question I get from people is, how do I find my purpose? Why don't I feel that I'm on purpose? Well, it turns out there are certain things you have to do to find your purpose, and I broke them down into five and I made a little masterclass about it. So if you'd like to see it, just go to marthavec.compurpose and you will be able to watch it without any charge at all.