Resting Joy Face

Summary

Podcast Summary: Bewildered – "Resting Joy Face"

Hosts: Martha Beck & Rowan Mangan
Release Date: December 3, 2025

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Main Theme

In this characteristically warm, insightful, and hilarious episode, Martha Beck and Rowan Mangan tackle the pervasive "resting misery face" so common in our modern anxieties, and propose a radical alternative: cultivating a "resting joy face." Drawing deeply from personal stories, neurological science, and cultural critique, they urge listeners to question longstanding internal narratives and societal conditioning—and to choose more joyful, possibility-oriented mindsets, despite the world’s pressures and alligator-related misfortunes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Occupational Injuries & Life Coaching (00:50–06:48)

• Martha humorously details her "occupational injury" as a life coach: bruising her palm from clapping at a graduation—illustrating how even non-physical jobs can bring unexpected hardships.
  • “I was injured by clapping at a graduation.” – Martha [04:31]
• Rowan teases about the misleading title “life coach,” riffing on the multiple possible meanings.

2. Modern Communication & "Not Into the Material World" (06:49–11:30)

• Rowan shares a delightfully cryptic text from a friend, who commented: “Clearly not into the material world based on how they dress.” The hosts riff on what it means, leading to jokes about being naked, dressing in disappointment, and portals to other dimensions.
  • “How do you not be into the material world?” – Rowan [09:15]
  • “Maybe they’re all nuns.” – Martha [09:49]
  • “I would wear disappointment.” – Rowan [10:46]

3. Resting Misery Face vs. Resting Joy Face (13:00–15:01)

• Martha observes that, culturally, people default to “resting misery face,” shaped by both biology (negativity bias) and a society fixated on what’s wrong.
  • “Our particular culture just throws us hard toward misery, like, as our resting state and says this here, this is normal. And it’s not necessary.” – Martha [14:06]
  • The “Default Mode Network” (DMN) is introduced: the brain’s autopilot setting, shaping our sense of self, memory, and how we interpret the world.

4. Furnishing the Inner Room: Default Narratives & Neurobiology (15:17–24:11)

• Rowan introduces a metaphor: our subjectivity as a room, decorated by habitual thoughts (“If I think often enough, people are trying to cheat me…”).
  • “So, you’re sort of furnishing this room to the point that it doesn’t even look like a room anymore—it just looks like the air. It’s reality.” – Rowan [18:05]
• Martha outlines DMN’s four components:
  • Autobiographical Memory: Selective remembering about self
  • Mind Wandering: Selective noticing of info in the world
  • Theory of Mind: Imagining what others think—often, about us
  • Sense of Continuity: A belief life always has/will be a certain way

5. Negativity Bias & Cultural Amplification (24:12–29:02)

• They discuss the evolutionary roots of our brain’s tendency to focus on threats, now amplified by social and digital media algorithms designed to exploit our attention.
  • “The algorithms focus on repeatedly giving us more of whatever holds our attention the longest…we tend to put more emphasis on things that are alarming or upsetting.” – Martha [27:06]
• Rowan jokes about the social reflex of “must be nice,” which roots even mundane positivity in suspicion, envy, or fear.

6. Social Pressures Against Joy – The “Must Be Nice” Syndrome (29:02–35:24)

• Martha shares a moving story about her family’s reaction to her son with Down syndrome, and their resistance to seeing any good in difficulty.
  • “We were so happy because we thought something bad had finally happened to you. And now it turns out it was something good.” – Martha quoting her sister [33:48]
• They note that expressing optimism or joy is often met with scorn: “must be nice”—a cultural reflex that polices positivity.

7. Retraining the Imagination & Mind (35:25–45:33)

• They highlight Byron Katie’s “The Work” as a tool for challenging and “wiggling” entrenched negative thoughts.
  • “People don’t think their thoughts are optional; they think their thoughts are reality.” – Martha [37:18]
  • The hosts joke about “wiggle with the motherboard” and how practicing opposite (“turnaround”) thoughts can be as awkward as physically trying a new motion.
• Martha illustrates through teaching and client stories how hard it is to even imagine positive alternatives, so deeply internalized are our beliefs (“You’ve got to have money to live”—[41:10]).

8. Working Out the Joy "Muscle" (45:34–52:26)

• Shifting from default misery to joy is likened to using a weaker, non-dominant hand—requiring deliberate, effortful practice.
  • “You’re going to be more balanced and your ability to function effectively in the world is going to be better if you purposely use the less dominant part to make it stronger.” – Martha [49:17]
• Martha shares how she intentionally decorates the "bus" of her awareness with joyful, loving thoughts—even if it feels unnatural at first.

9. How Culture Enforces Negativity & What’s Actually Real (52:27–58:52)

• The hosts touch on how “resting misery face” is upheld as intellectual, sophisticated, or pragmatic—and how noticing and integrating positive reality takes conscious effort.
  • “Unless we are open to all scenarios, we are not in touch with reality at all.” – Martha [57:42]
• Suggest practices: literally count the good things and see how often things work, people are kind, and life is functional.

10. Integrating Positivity: Letting Good Feedback "Land" (60:06–63:50)

• They tell a story of giving sincere praise to a friend (their Pilates instructor Ray) who asks to hear it again, needing time to let it “land” without deflecting.
  • “What if they actually meant it? What if they actually meant, you’ve helped me or I love you or I thought you were fantastic?” – Martha [61:24]
• Suggest that integrating positive feedback is an active process, not something that happens by accident.

11. Practical Takeaways & Philosophical Wrap-Up (63:50–65:26)

• The key question: “Is that true?”—applied especially to thoughts that generate misery.
  • “First thing is realize that thoughts are optional. Your thoughts are not reality.” – Martha [63:43]
• Encourage deliberate openness (“don’t know mind”), curiosity, and mindful selection of what to focus on.
• Remember: choosing joy is both radical and necessary for creativity, connection, and authentic engagement with life.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "We believe that the best way to figure it all out is by going through bewilderment into bewilderment." – Martha [00:10]
• “Clearly not into the material world based on how they dress.” – Rowan reading a text [08:59]
• “Resting misery face... That, okay, there are biological reasons for that, but there are a lot of cultural reasons for it as well.” – Martha [14:06]
• “The Default Mode network... They establish a sense of our autobio, our autobiographical information, like what we remember about ourselves, which is selective.” – Martha [19:00]
• “The idea that they're imagining a world that is very, very difficult doesn't appear to them to be optional. But I think it is optional.” – Martha [14:59]
• “We were so happy because we thought something bad had finally happened to you. And now it turns out it was something good.” – Martha quoting her sister [33:48]
• “People don’t think that their thoughts are optional. They think their thoughts are reality.” – Martha [37:18]
• “Wiggle with the motherboard.” – Rowan [36:30]
• “Our motto is: culture comes to consensus. Nature means coming to our senses.” – Martha [57:56]
• “Thoughts are not reality. And then if it's putting your default network into a state of misery, are those thoughts actually reality?” – Martha [63:43]
• “Can you say that again? ...And like, sit under it, like a warm shower.” – Rowan [63:48]
• “Choosing resting joy face—that’s how you stay wild.” – Martha [65:15]

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Important Timestamps

• 00:50–06:48 – Martha’s “clapping injury,” coaching jokes, and prosthetic duck feet
• 08:59–11:14 – The "material world" text and double (and triple) entendres
• 13:00–15:01 – Introduction to resting misery face and DMN
• 27:06–28:02 – Social media algorithms exploit negativity bias
• 29:02–35:24 – Cultural policing of joy (“must be nice”), shifting internal narratives
• 35:25–45:33 – Byron Katie’s “The Work” and the difficulty of challenging ingrained thoughts
• 49:01–52:26 – Strengthening positivity like a muscle; cows respond to love
• 52:27–57:42 – The prevalence of resting misery face and the cultural valorization of negativity
• 60:06–63:50 – Practicing letting praise and good things "land"
• 63:50–65:26 – Final takeaways: questioning thoughts, openness, and the value of joy

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Tone & Atmosphere

The episode is playful, honest, and richly anecdotal. Martha and Rowan balance humor (often absurd, sometimes deadpan) with sincere calls for introspection and transformation, making self-help feel like a communal, laughter-laden adventure.

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Key Takeaways

• Our brains and culture nudge us toward chronic worry, judgment, and "resting misery face"—but this is both optional and modifiable.
• Most of our thoughts are habits, not truths. Question them, especially those causing suffering.
• Shifting toward “resting joy face” is not about blind optimism or performative happiness, but a mindful choice to create a more useful, peaceful, and connected life.
• Joy, curiosity, and creativity are vital—not frivolous—especially in troubled times. Challenging negativity is itself an act of courage and resistance.
• Integrate positive observations and feedback as actively and deliberately as you would challenge negative beliefs.

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Stay bewildered, stay wild—cultivate your resting joy face!

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Bewildered. I'm Martha Beck, here with Rowan Mangan. At this crazy moment in history, a lot of people are feeling bewildered. But that actually may be a sign we're on track. Human culture teaches us to come to consensus, but nature, our own true nature, helps us come to our senses. Rowan and I believe that the best way to figure it all out is by going through bewilderment into bewilderment. That's why we're here. Hi, I'm Martha Beck.

[B]

And I'm Rowan Mangan. And this is another episode of Bewildered. The podcast. Yes, it's a podcast for people. That's right. Like you, like me, who are trying to figure it out. God help us all. It's a freaking disaster out there.

[A]

Oh, I can't figure it out, but I am trying to figure it out.

[B]

Tell me what you're trying to figure out.

[A]

Well, I have recently developed the weirdest occupational injury that I've ever had or imagined having. I'm a.

[B]

How many occupational injuries do you imagine having?

[A]

Oh, many. Oh, many. I vividly imagine them, but this one, no. So, like, I am physically feeble in every way, so I had to have a job that required no physical movement whatsoever, which is why I became a coach. I can just sort of talk to people and think things.

[B]

If a civilian was listening to this, I think that they would think you were being ironic in some way, because coach often would suggest someone vigorously riding a bicycle and blowing a whistle.

[A]

Riding a bicycle? Since when does a coach ride a.

[B]

Bicycle alongside the river?

[A]

Oh, you were on. You were road crew. Yeah. There are no bicycles in my sports. No bicycles.

[B]

But they must stand up in things like the sporty ones.

[A]

Well, I just said it because you don't know the term life coach. Every time I say that, I go into an intense existential crisis, because that is what I love doing, and that is what I think I'm best at, and that is what I teach other people to do. And I cannot stand the freaking phrase life coach.

[B]

And we'll get to that.

[A]

We'll get to that later. But, yeah, I mean, what occupational physical injuries could you have as a life coach? I went to a thing where I worked with these lovely, lovely people for, like, four days.

[B]

You went to a thing?

[A]

A thing. Seminars.

[B]

Wasn't with the CIA. You couldn't, like.

[A]

Yeah, you can't say.

[B]

Can't say what it is.

[A]

It was a cna. Nsa. I like seeing the nsa, because that sounds more secret than the CIA or the FBI or the TCB or the DNA I don't know. Anyway, this is what happened.

[B]

I wanted the KGB to be their life coach. They could use it.

[A]

They totally could. Anyway, we had been moving things about in our abode, and I squished my left hand between a big, heavy box of things and a wall. I squished it severely ro. But in the middle part, in my palm.

[B]

So I squished your palm.

[A]

It happened at this thing that I was put in front of the group.

[B]

Okay, so wait, what? First you're at home and you somehow squish your palm? Yes.

[A]

It was horrible.

[B]

Then you went to a thing.

[A]

Then I went to a thing, and I had a bruised hand.

[B]

Could you just paint a little bit of a word picture for us about the thing you were at?

[A]

Okay. The thing was this amazing seminar in Santa Fe, which is a gorgeous, gorgeous part of the world. It was wonderful. And there were 40 people there, and we were all in this wonderful campus called the Modern Elder Academy. It's really awesome.

[B]

They're not paying her, if anyone's wondering.

[A]

They actually did pay me, but I would say it anyway. Not for this. No. I would not do this if it were not true. It was really gorgeous. Anyway, there were 40 people there, and at the end, they have a graduation ceremony, which I had never been to, I knew nothing about. I was placed at the front of the room, and each person had to come up and get a diploma and be clapped for after person number two. I was in such hand pain, I can't even tell you. I was, like, trying to slap my wrist. I was trying to, but clapping was, like, devastatingly painful. I had to clap my way through 40 people. It's like I was injured by clapping at a graduation.

[B]

There's that thing where politicians get the handshake bruise, bruising. Like, really, when they're campaigning. Yeah.

[A]

And do their mouths get bruised from kissing babies?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

That might hurt the baby, too. If you kissed him that hard.

[B]

Anything's possible.

[A]

Seriously, Handshaking injury?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I'm feeling better about myself. Yeah, you're doing it great, because. Yeah, I can clap through the pain.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, yeah, I'm trying to figure out how to go on in my life with this hand injury because I may have to clap again. And after the clapping, it was like, I might as well have smashed it against a wall again.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I literally had to just smash my injuries to help people feel good.

[B]

Are you sure you had to smash them that hard? I think maybe sometimes a little polite.

[A]

No, no, see, that wasn't enough. Because there were people on either side and they could tell and they were clapping loudly. They practice all the time. They do it every week.

[B]

Oh, my God. I just wanted to say life coach. Ladies and gentlemen, life coach Martha Beck here wondering if she's clapping loud enough.

[A]

You know what I need a clapping prosthetic. I mean, I need. Because I saw this on YouTube with a duck. He was lying on his back in shallow water and just slapping his feet on the water and it made a loud slapping sound. So what I need is like prosthetic duck feet. Maybe I could get some of those swim fins that you wear on your feet and put them on my hands and just smash them together. That would make some serious slapping noises.

[B]

So that people would take you more seriously at events.

[A]

And Santa Claus, they would know I approved.

[B]

Loving the visuals.

[A]

Have to put on my clapping prosthetics just to express how proud I was. Excuse me, everyone.

[B]

Excuse me. Sorry, I just. Just one minute.

[A]

Just gotta get out my old clapping prosthetics.

[B]

Fit it on here.

[A]

Yes, I know it's a little bit flappy.

[B]

Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.

[A]

I'm sorry.

[B]

Hey. Don't just whack things.

[A]

That was just my good hand.

[B]

I'm so sorry, ladies and gentlemen.

[A]

Literally, my love.

[B]

That's all I can. Stop it.

[A]

Okay, sorry.

[B]

Stop banging the table. This is a professional outfit.

[A]

What are you trying to figure out, woman?

[B]

Well, I'm clapping fine. So far so good.

[A]

Must be nice.

[B]

It is nice. It's lovely. I'm trying to figure out, I don't know if everyone has someone in their lives who texts like stream of consciousness book reports while driving via Siri or.

[A]

Your more people than we would think.

[B]

Yeah, like, it's just. It's like a new thing where, you know, relatively new that because of voice, you know, and the car knows and all of that. The car knows everything. And then you can listen and then. And then Siri, in our case, Siri, sorry for giving away that we're slaves to the apple, you know, empire. But anyway, we have a beloved and she does this sort of impressionistic style of texting, our Karen. And she recently sent me a text that I've like screenshotted and will just always keep close to my butt cheek. I guess because it's in my phone.

[A]

I'll always keep it close to my butt. It'll come from the heart of my.

[B]

Bottom for the rest of time and I just have to share it. I'm not even trying to figure it out because I feel like some things you shouldn't be trying to figure them out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's just let them be. Yeah.

[A]

So give us this.

[B]

Okay. Sit with this. Okay.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It begins innocuously enough. Adam and I had fun with Renio, right? You just think, oh, yeah. So far, so good. It goes on to detail their morning with Renio, our friend. Anyway, then she starts getting into the book report thing about this town they went to. Lots of 30 and 40 somethings everywhere talking about AI and art. And then. And so the. So far, I was like, okay, there's 30 and 40 year olds everywhere talking about AI and art. But then it just got really good to me. When she says, clearly not into the material world based on how they dress, I just want to ask, clearly not into the material world. How do you not be into the material world?

[A]

That basically implies they were naked because there's no material on them. Like material as in matter and material as in cloth. Okay, two ways to go there. Okay. Yeah.

[B]

Interesting. I did used to think that with that Madonna song, I'm a material girl. Yeah.

[A]

I'm made out of material. Yeah, I guess we are, technically. But not cloth. Oh, how I love a double entendre. What did. What did you get from this?

[B]

So clearly not into the material world based on how they dress.

[A]

Maybe they're all nuns.

[B]

I feel like maybe they were wearing, like, portals to another dimension. You know her.

[A]

They were all AI generated art products from another universe.

[B]

That's why it was not material. They were talking about themselves.

[A]

They were like black holes just wandering the streets of this place going, nothing material can be in us.

[B]

Clearly not into the material world based on how they dress. You've. You're listening to Bewildered, the podcast for people who are clearly not into the material world based on how you dress.

[A]

You dress. How would you even put together an outfit? If I said, dress like you're not. Dress like you're not into the material world. I think I would just wear a pair of overalls with nothing underneath.

[B]

I would wear disappointment.

[A]

How do you wear disappointment other than on your face and the moonbeams? Actually, my entire body is a disappointment, so that's not hard. And moonbeams. Ooh, yeah.

[B]

Disappointment in moonbeams.

[A]

It's a new look. Why not fall 2020 something? 20 apocalypse.

[B]

20 apocalypse.

[A]

Well, we'll have to have Karen dress up to show us how one indicates that one is not interested in the material world.

[B]

It's so sweet. I'm going to put it on the wall. That text.

[A]

Oh, so sweet. What are we actually doing here?

[B]

God, I wish I knew. Hi there. I'm Ro and I'll be your podcaster for today. Do you know how to tip your podcaster? It's actually pretty easy. You can rate our pod with lots of stars, all your stars. You can review it with your best superlatives. You can even subscribe or follow Bewildered so you'll never miss an episode. Then, of course, if you're ready to go, all in. Our paid online community is called Wilder A Sanctuary for the Bewildered. And I can honestly say it's one of the few true sanctuaries online. You can go to wildercommunity.com to check it out. Rate, review, subscribe, join, and you all have a great day now.

[A]

Hello, the lovely peoples. This is Marty Martha, inviting you to a free masterclass that I have made called Five Paths to youo Purpose. Probably the most common question I get from people is, how do I find my purpose? Why don't I feel that I'm on purpose? Well, it turns out there are certain things you have to do to find your purpose, and I broke them down into five and I made a little masterclass about it. So if you'd like to see it, just go to marthaveck.compurpose and you will be able to watch it without any charge at all.

[B]

So we're going to talk today about resting joy face. And.

[A]

I'm going to out you on this. Ro has a cold, and when her sinuses are blocked, I think there are passageways in her brain that go through her sinuses. So she kind of every now and then she just goes completely blank like a robot. Okay, so here's the deal. Most people, when I go about being a life coach, when I'm roundabout in the world, they are wound up so tight. Like their resting state is extreme anxiety or angst or anger. Any of the an words, it's probably.

[B]

Because you went clapping loudly.

[A]

Anhedonia.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

I need to get back my clapping. I need to get my clapping prosthetics going. Fix everybody.

[B]

Get those kleppas.

[A]

Yeah, so it was just. I was just talking to Ro about how everybody has resting misery face and that.

[B]

That.

[A]

Okay, there are biological reasons for that, but there are a lot of cultural reasons for it as well. That we are born with brains that sort of veer toward the negative. And then we get socialized and our particular culture just like throws us hard toward misery, like, as our resting state and says this here, this is normal and it's not necessary. It's like your imagination is this Incredible vehicle that's being driven by somebody else, and you just sit in the passenger seat going, I guess this is where I go. Because when I try to get people to shift that into different states of imagination, they're like, well, there is no other state. I don't even know what you're talking about. The idea that they're imagining a world that is very, very difficult doesn't appear to them to be optional. But I think it is optional.

[B]

Yeah. I think that the, like. The very premise of the whole conversation is like, the, like, question your thoughts thought, you know. Yeah. And even that is, like, radically anticultural.

[A]

Yeah, Right.

[B]

Because. But it's. It's my thoughts. Yeah, it's my thoughts.

[A]

We are taught to identify with our thoughts as though our thoughts are us.

[B]

But I think what happens with our thoughts. I just had a. I had a metaphor.

[A]

Let's go, baby.

[B]

Came. It just came to me.

[A]

Out of your sinuses.

[B]

Straight out of the sinuses. So say your point of view. Right. Your own subjectivity. The. The frame from which you look out your eyes and see the world is like a room that is shaped by habitual thought.

[A]

So.

[B]

If I think often enough, people are trying to cheat me, say, or. Everyone's always trying to exploit something. That's a green vase.

[A]

Vase.

[B]

Sorry, Americans.

[A]

Vase or vase.

[B]

It's a vase. It's a vase.

[A]

It's a thing you put your flowers in.

[B]

Can I tell you a joke?

[A]

Why not? This seems like a good time.

[B]

I'm trying to remember how it goes. All right, so there's two women talking, and one says, oh, my husband's bought me flowers this morning for our anniversary. And the other one's like, well, that's really nice. And she's like, yeah, but, you know. And the other one's like, what are you talking about? It's nice to get flowers. And the one's like, yeah, but I don't want to have to spend the next three days of my life, like, lying on my back with my legs in the air. So thank you. And the first woman's like, don't you have a vase? I don't know. I think it's something that happens in straight world.

[A]

Ah, yeah, it would be. It could happen in lesbian world. Yeah. I may buy you flowers.

[B]

And I have a vase.

[A]

Oh, no, this is terrible. We're making people think of us lying around with our legs in the air and.

[B]

Oh, I was just thinking about vases.

[A]

I wasn't. All right, where were we with this? A room. There's a Thought. The thought is, I'm always exploited. It's a green vase. Or vase don't hit the table. I'm not supposed to hit the table. Which takes us to a fixed, imaginary thought of a woman entertaining flowers in the wrong way.

[B]

Yeah. Or being entertained by flowers.

[A]

Could be.

[B]

So you're sort of furnishing this room to the point that it doesn't even look like a room anymore to you. It just looks like the air.

[A]

It's reality.

[B]

Yeah, but all these things are there, and that's your, like, resting. Like, it's the inner resting of your face. Do you know your inner face?

[A]

Your inner face? There's language for this. There's neurological language for this. It's called Drumroll. The Default Mode network.

[B]

Marty's been waiting to say that for about four hours.

[A]

I keep reading about the Default Mode Network, and I've just had a chance.

[B]

And I keep googling it.

[A]

I've never had a chance to work it into a conversation without being slapped. But now I'm going to show it.

[B]

Someone had one of those big duck things.

[A]

Yes. Someone in a clapping prosthetic just bashed me across the fizz. You know what fizz is, right? Physiognomy. It means face. I just shortened it, assuming everyone would understand. It's not my fault. I know the physiotomy of the face. Be quiet. Let me talk about the Default Mode network without slots, slopping me, slapping me. Okay, here's the thing. When you're just, like, sitting around, you'd expect maybe if you were a neurologist, to see the brain just go bleh. And not really light up much, because the lighting up part is where you can see the activity in the neurons. Well, it turns out that when we're just sitting around, our brains do light up in a variety of places, sort of spread around the brain. And they call this the Default Mode network. So it's when you just are not thinking about anything, these parts light up. And this is what they take care of in the world. First, they. They establish a sense of our autobio, our autobiographical information, like what we remember about ourselves, which is selective. Like, you can remember that you're a coach, but not a life coach.

[B]

I see.

[A]

But, you know, some people just remember being a terribly abused person, and some. And they remember primarily the bad things that happened. And somebody else can be like, I saw myself as a lucky person. And that's sort of their autobiographical state of being. That's the way they furnish that room in terms of their autobiography. Who I am, and it's shaped by imagination and choice. Then there's mind wandering. And that's where you pick up little stray bits of information, but you pick them up selectively again. Like you could walk down the street and notice the people who are being mean to each other, or the people who are being nice to each other, or the people who were serving each other or whatever.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

But.

[B]

But are you saying that you're not walking down the street at this time? You're sitting on the couch, vegged out. Right. And the mind wandering to the.

[A]

No, you could walk down the street without anything particularly in your mind.

[B]

Oh, I see. So you.

[A]

So just when you're not actively thinking of something. So you've got your sense of autobiography. You've got the mind wandering, but wandering in a way that is sort of directed. Then you've got what's called theory of mind, which is what you think other people are thinking. And a lot of that is a therapist friend of mine once said what they're thinking about you. So theory of mind is mainly your fantasies about other people's fantasies about you. So that's in there. And then finally, there's a sense of continuity over time. This is the way things always are and that, you know, Therefore, it's the way they always will be. It's just an assumption. So you're selecting four things. You've got your autobiography, this is who I am, but you're selecting what you're gonna look at. And you're decorating the room with that stuff, right? Yeah. Then there's mind wandering. Wherever you are, you're picking up new stuff to put in the room, but selectively.

[B]

Yeah. And I would say that it's probably likely that the things you're picking up are going to match the decor of the room you're already furnishing and decorating. Because, like, this is what we're imagining. Right. Is that you're building this worldview.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Which is telling a certain story.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so the decor matches.

[A]

Right. And then there's theory of mind, what you think other people are thinking, especially about you. And in this thing, you could, like, you could give a performance and a hundred people clap for you, and one person doesn't, because that person has a bashed hand and no prosthetics. And you might just think that person didn't clap. That person didn't clap. You can. If you are focused on something that is negative, you'll pick out one person who's negative toward you and ignore a Hundred who are positive, if that's how your theory of mind goes. And then there are people who think, everybody loves me. And people could literally come up. I knew a guy once who would get. He was a writer. He'd get rejection slips, and he would interpret them so positively, he thought they were acceptance. They would say something like, you have a fine tone in the first chapter. And he'd be like, they want it. And he would send back letters, so glad you liked it. And they'd be like, no, we hate it.

[B]

Sandwich.

[A]

Oh, There's a double meaning in that. So theory of mind is another thing that is selected. And then finally, the sense of continuity over time. This always or this never. Those things we say which are never really true. I just did it. I just did it. Yeah. Where we generalize about how things have been and therefore how they're going to be. And all these things, as you said, are just. We've been living in a room that's looked pretty much the same for a very long time, even though instead of it being a solid thing that's always there, it's a fluid thing that we're continuously recreating in its own image through the use, or what I would call the misuse of our imaginations.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I work with people, and I always think, this is the problem. They're misusing their imaginations and. But they don't know it.

[B]

You were telling me that you were teaching a group a while ago and that you felt like they were misusing their imaginations.

[A]

Can you imagine? Oh, my gosh. It was like a lot of people. It was like 125 people. And I started out by saying, how many people think the world. That the world has a potential for good, and they just were sitting on their hands. How many people feel positive about the future? No hands go up. How about the past? No. And I said, okay, I get it, that things are bad. And actually, things have always been kind of bad. Right now we're facing all this unprecedented shit, as Ana Defranco so eloquently says. But my parents lived through World War II, and that was no picnic either. There's a lot bad in this world. But even given that, can you try to see the world with a different complexion, with a different sense of how things are and what people think of you and what your autobiography has been? And they were like, nope, no can do. It was amazing.

[B]

So let me see if I'm understanding right. The way that our brains work in with this is that our brains have a negativity bias, which is like an evolutionary adaptation that is to make sure that we pay more attention to that which can kill us than that which is benevolent and fine.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so that makes sense.

[A]

But it's, it's.

[B]

Our brain can't differentiate between a great white shark and the potential disapproval of an acquaintance, and so they become the same thing. And then I would say that the, the. When we talk about culture and nature on this podcast. And so I think like, the, the culture sort of is also steering us towards upholding that tendency of the brains. Right.

[A]

Accentuating, in fact, that is some of the unprecedented shit, because no other generation in history has ever had the Internet, which is running on algorithms that are based on how long we focus on any given piece of information. So what happens is the brain has a negativity bias. That means that if something's scary, you pay closer attention to it. Attention is what people monetize on the Internet. And in particular, the algorithms focus on repeatedly giving us more of whatever holds our attention the longest. It so happens that by biological predisposition, we tend to put more emphasis on things that are alarming or upsetting because of that negativity bias. But then the algorithm starts editing itself, so it gives us more of that, and it's pushing out other pieces of information that have a different. That might create a different default mode network setting.

[B]

Right. And that's not the laws of physics. That's someone's agenda then pushing in. More likely than not.

[A]

Yeah, they want your attention. And then I don't think they sit around saying, we're gonna scare people to death. It's just, we're gonna get attention. And that happens when you scare people to death?

[B]

No, I think it's more. It can be more insidious than that. I mean, we're talking about algorithms now, so that's, you know, slightly off off topic. But, you know, it's also true that if you want people to think a certain way, then you literally build the rabbit holes that their attention ends up funneling down.

[A]

Yes. So now you're into the really dark stuff.

[B]

Well, I think I'm into the mainstream. I think I'm into the very surface of. Of this. What you're talking about. Yeah, I think it's. And you know, like, obviously that's part of the way our minds work. So we're kind of inform and content mirroring each other now.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because you're saying, well, the world's always been really bad. My brain's like, not this bad, not this bad. And you know, we often talk about the must be nice.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We have some friends that we have a text thread with that we often joke about and send, like, examples of, you know, social media comments where someone's like, my hip doesn't hurt anymore. And. And then someone inevitably in the comments is like, must be nice to not have a hip hurt anymore. I don't even have a hip. Both of mine were removed by alligators.

[A]

Oh, dear. We're going to start getting email from people whose hips were removed by alligators. You know, it's a demographic out there. Okay. So.

[B]

And I feel like the must be nice thing is that defense mechanism of. No defense mechanism. That evolutionary adaptation rising up to go, be careful. Things. Things are bad. Don't say things are good because things could be bad. And if. If you miss it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The alligators will get you here.

[A]

Yeah. And don't forget that when you go into a state of fear of. At any level, even slight. So when people are reading things online and they're being. Their attention is being drawn to frightening things. So they're. Their fear levels are pretty high. And then they read something about somebody whose hip doesn't hurt anymore. And what you're hearing when they say must be nice is a fight response. It's not just mindless cruelty. It's because their anxiety is up, and that's a fight or flight mechanism, and they're not running, so they're gonna fight you. And then they fight you. And then somebody puts that out there, and everybody else sees it and it looks aggressive, which automatically makes the brain respond with aggression.

[B]

But you know what else it does, is it's also the more we see those comments and that dynamic playing out, it's also shaping our perception of our culture. Right. As is. As something where if anyone says something's okay in the world, someone else will go, get down here in the muck.

[A]

Exactly. So I have. Could I speak of my experience with this in the code emoji, please? So I grew up in a very sarcastic, sort of bitingly cruel family. Like, literally, there was a Mormon hymn that we were all supposed to sing in terms of the church. It was called Love at Home. And we were forbidden to sing that song, even if it was being sung by the congregation, because it was just considered too maudlin and disgusting. And we don't go there. So it was not the warmest of environments. So then I got to a little place called Harvard when I was 17 and found out, sure enough, it was full of biting sarcasm. I was right at home. I freaking Loved it. People would punch me in the face with their words, and I would punch back. It was great. Other poor kids from wherever were going, why is everyone mean here? And I just loved it. Anyway, then I had my son. Sorry. You and your friend used to drink every time I mentioned Harvard or Down syndrome. I'm mentioning them both now.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

It was pretty brutal. And I didn't see a lot of upside in having a child with down syndrome or, more to the point, being a person with down syndrome. But I was like, wait, wait, wait. I refuse to give up. And I started thinking of things that were positive about having a child with down syndrome, being a child with down syndrome. So I started being like, there's joy to be had. And I got it. Yeah. What?

[B]

Is that?

[A]

Why?

[B]

I mean, I bet everyone listening is like, oh, yeah, I totally recognize either having been new in that or have. Or the impulse to slam someone.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Who will not acknowledge how fucking bad things are.

[A]

Yeah. In fact, since we're talking about my family, my sister, I said to her, after he was born, she was talking about something in her life, and I said, yeah, it was hard for me to adjust to Adam having this extra chromosome, but I'm starting to see, you know, like, some people sparkle like a diamond, and he kind of glows like a sapphire, like it's a different light, but he brings a light of his own. And she burst into tears. And I said, what's wrong? And she said, we were so happy because we thought something bad had finally happened to you. And now it turns out it was something good.

[B]

God damn it, you lucky thing I got so much. Must be nice. I don't even have a son with down syndrome.

[A]

I know. Anyway, the point is that when I was shifting my default mode network to try to, like, want to live, she thought that I had entered a reality where everything was automatically easy for me.

[B]

No, but you weren't shifting your default mode network. You were adapting the circumstances to your existing default mode network. Because the room that you furnish always goes, hmm, let me find a way to make this sunny, you know? And I don't mean that in a facile way. No, I mean, you're kind of what I do. And then you. You do this amazing yoga in your room until there's a way that it all looks good.

[A]

Pretty much, yeah. I actually was dealing with that in Santa Fe. This one woman, we were doing these things where your body gets very weak when you're miserable or you're lying or whatever. And she was just. We were doing all these muscle testing things. And she was always strong. And one of the things we have people say that is not true, that I know is a lie, is I love to vomit. And she would say that and she'd start to weaken and then her strength would pop up again. And I said, what are you doing? And she said, well, at first I think yuck, but then I think better out than in. And she was just relentlessly sunny. And I gotta tell you, she was physically strong like an ox and, like radiant and everything. And I was like, damn, must be nice.

[B]

Must be nice to be strong.

[A]

Like ox default mode network. But she really had. She pushed it even further than I do, which is saying something. You're right, I kind of. But that's not something I was born with. It's something I developed well.

[B]

And that's kind of what we're driving at, right. Is that there's. It feels like stuff is baked in, but actually we're recreating it in every moment. So it's like, you know, are you. One of the sort of tools that you've drawn on a lot is the work of Byron Katie.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Which is, you know, one of these brilliant ways that we can kind of get into our own circuitry without any invasive surgical procedures and start wiggling with the motherboard, you know, because if you don't wiggle with a motherboard, you're not really trying.

[A]

Oh, my gosh, that's fun.

[B]

Katie would love me for saying this about her work.

[A]

If that isn't the name of a band, it has to be the name of a song.

[B]

Wiggle with the Motherboard.

[A]

It's good news.

[B]

It's going to be like the band that decides to do a kid's album.

[A]

It's heavy metal. Wiggle with the motherboard.

[B]

Wiggle with the motherboard.

[A]

Have I talked about, on this podcast about my Chinese song album that I got in mainland China in 1983 that was called Our Motherly Rubber Estate, featuring the song Nobody Would say Bad of Our Motherland. Aw. Anyway. Yeah. Wiggle with the motherboard.

[B]

Wiggle with the motherboard. And start looking at things that we're choosing that feel like they're not choices.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

What we're choosing to see, what we're choosing to reinforce by circumstance.

[A]

Yeah. People don't think that their thoughts are optional. They think their thoughts are reality.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And this is what Byron Katie just over and over and over blows to smithereens inside people's heads. She works with. Well, she has this work that is brilliantly simple and Brilliantly brief and incredibly hard to learn. So don't take it from us. Go to her website and do this. And it's four questions you ask of any. You have a thought that makes you feel bad, and you see if it's true, and you see how it affects you. And like, you go in ruthlessly, like a scientist. It's the most scientific methodology of thinking I've ever encountered in my life. And at the end, when you've questioned a thought that you think is absolute and you started to see that it may not be absolute, she has you do something called a turnaround, where it's the opposite of the thought, the direct grammatical opposite of the thought. And you have to start to think of ways in which that might be true. And. And it's so interesting because you watch people who. It's almost like watching someone try to lift a weight that's too heavy for them.

[B]

That's how it feels too.

[A]

Yeah, it's like this straining or. In one, I read an anthropological study of this rainforest tribe that didn't have straight lines in their environment at all. And this anthropologist would draw a straight line in the dirt, and then they tried to make it that way, and they would draw a curved line because that's how the arm bends. And he'd say, no, make it straight. And they would just look at him like he was crazy. And then they would try, but it was like they would be sweating and gritting their teeth. And the reason is they didn't have that neuron connection in the brain. And we have it all over. We see straight lines everywhere, but there are very few in nature. So the same thing, when you're trying to think the opposite of a thought, you've always believed, like, I'm a piece of crap. Okay, that one. How many times have I thought that? But I'm a shining jewel or whatever. Whatever you think the opposite of a piece of crap is. Then she says, find the evidence. Find the evidence. Look for the evidence. And you don't get to ignore any of the evidence. She's ruthlessly scientific.

[B]

And it's not about, like. What's fascinating with the work is that it's not actually about proving that the opposite is true. It's about wiggling the tooth. That's where I got the motherboard thing. Wiggling. You wiggle the tooth of the thought.

[A]

Double metaphor. In a room where you have a green vase.

[B]

In the room with the green vase, you wiggle the motherboard until the tooth pops out and then the vase is golden. I think Any questions?

[A]

I think we're done here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, like, I remember trying to work with a therapist whom I deeply respected to do this kind of work. Why are you laughing?

[B]

Because what you're talking about is. So I was trying to life coach my therapist while I paid her to be my therapist.

[A]

I said, a therapist that I knew. Okay, yes, she was my therapist. But we had observed two years, no contact. We. I cut off that relationship. Two years of narcotics, then we were friends.

[B]

Okay, and then you began life coaching.

[A]

Her like she wanted to learn. Oh, God, that sounds horribly like. Like she wanted to learn. The poor thing was yearning for some information from moi. Real, real thinking. No, she. She wanted to learn this. The Byron Katie work. So I'd go through and I'd say, you know, she'd say something like, well, you gotta make money to live. And I'd say, okay, is that necessarily true? You're on an island somewhere? Could I just say something about an island somewhere?

[B]

We are on an island somewhere.

[A]

We always are. Really? Third rock from the sun. No, we have transcripts sometimes of things we say. Or maybe this was just me. Anyway, I was saying something on a recording and it got automatically transcribed. And I think what I said was, imagine yourself in a lovely place, like maybe an atoll in the Pacific. Atoll, meaning, I think, a small island with other islands sprinkled around. I think that's what it means. Anyway, the transcript just said, imagine yourself someplace really divine, like an asshole in the Pacific. I was like, is that like the maelstrom or something? Anyway, what was I talking about?

[B]

I've got a cold and I'm on a lot of drugs. What's your excuse?

[A]

I'm just. Mind mirroring you, My mirror neurons.

[B]

I'm so sorry.

[A]

Anyway, gotta have money to live, she would say. And I'd say, not if you're on an asshole in the Pacific eating coconut.

[B]

And she said, I really can't be a therapist any longer.

[A]

You're beyond help. Anyway, she could not think of any examples of a person who might not need money to live. And most people in our culture cannot, because it has been so selectively programmed into us that the one thing we absolutely have to have is, is this token of exchange that links us inexorably to the whole mess, the whole catastrophe. And nobody, in my experience, not nobody, very few people that I've worked with over the years, and there have been many, ever thinks in terms of what they could do without money. You do. You think that way. No, you don't. You think of interesting ways you could get money. You're really. And that's part of your Default Mode network. Yeah. Cause we'll just be, like, driving. Yeah.

[B]

Like, I don't need money right now, but, boy, I could work in a noodle shop.

[A]

Absolutely. Like, everywhere we go, Ro goes, yeah, I could work here. They want me. I know.

[B]

I don't say they want me.

[A]

It's implied.

[B]

Well, of course it's implied, because I.

[A]

Literally became a life coach because I couldn't imagine anyone wanting me to hire me for anything. I never. I would think they'd never hire me.

[B]

I don't get it. What do you mean?

[A]

No, literally, like, you go in. We had lunch at a new food for a job. Yeah.

[B]

So you became a life coach.

[A]

I could get a job, and I think there's no way they'd give me a job.

[B]

And so you thought you were therefore.

[A]

Qualified to be a life coach, tell.

[B]

People how to live?

[A]

Well, I did help people get jobs by shifting the way they thought about getting jobs for themselves. I just never thought that I could get a job for myself. I see.

[B]

I see. Well, and we'll. We'll explore that further.

[A]

So here's the thing. The Default Mode network, most of us are set to negative. The culture sets us to highly negative. We get pushed and pushed and pushed. And if we try to shift back toward, like, optimism and positivity, we get sneered at, we get lambasted. We get. Must be nice. Like, there are actual pressures to keep us from shifting from resting misery face to resting joy face. Resting joy face is where you walk around going, hmm, I could throw up, but better out than in. And I don't mean we should all, like, put on a happy face.

[B]

I hate that.

[A]

I hate that. There's nothing worse than performative positivity. I, too, have been on morning television. Not often, but I've done it.

[B]

Do not turn that frown upside down, whatever you do. No, but I think we can all benefit from questioning some of those reflex thoughts. Right.

[A]

I think the key word there is questioning. What we benefit from is walking around with a mind that is open to questions all the time. And most of us think of that as a difficult or frightening thing because we want to know things. In Asia, they call it don't know mind. I've talked about it a million times, but it's the idea that Suzuki Roshi said that in the beginner's mind, there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind, there are few. If you walk around going, I have no particular bias here. I'm Just observing the world generally, what works for us best is something more on the optimistic side.

[B]

Right. Because actually you're always listening to starboard a little bit. That's a nice little maritime reference for you there. Can list either way towards negativity. It doesn't matter if it's left or right. Right towards negativity because of our evolution. So in, in actual fact, doesn't it like wouldn't it be better to kind of force the issue a little bit towards the positive? Even though people are dying and people are being exploited and people are suffering and all of that is. Is going to be true. And what Marty's book Beyond Anxiety showed is that if you remain clenched in the part of your brain that is focused on the misery, the exploitation, the suffering, and let's be honest, feels a little bit self righteous in staying there.

[A]

That part of the brain feels is very into judgment and righteousness.

[B]

Yeah. And that's why must be nice is always said with that particular tone of voice.

[A]

Yes. It's judgment and it's self satisfaction.

[B]

Yeah. And what I was saying was from that space you can sneer, you can put other people down, you can, you know, empathize, like, but you cannot solve.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can't solve from that place. And so why would you want to try and like go for resting joy face at a time like this? Because that's what we need. That's what we need is people who can come up with creative solutions. Which you can't do.

[A]

Right. You can do it. If you walked through the world going, anything could be possible. Let me look for what's useful. As a sociologist, I was told you can. We're never gonna deal in absolute truth. There's no absolute truth in the social scientists, but there is usefulness. So is optimism true? No. Optimists are more often wrong than they are right. But is optimism useful? Indubitably. It gives people more longevity, it gives people better health, it improves your immune function. And here's how I think of it, because we don't have enough metaphors in this podcast yet.

[B]

I'm just working on the metaphor, like enlarging the metaphor for this.

[A]

You remember I. We've moved. So I haven't seen my physical therapist slash dominatrix for a long time.

[B]

I know, honey.

[A]

Yeah. And that.

[B]

And I've done a terrible time filling her shoes.

[A]

I know. You never make me lift anything, but one of the things that is was really gnarly about having her dictate my workout was that she made me use my non dominant A hand and leg and everything to try to equalize the strength on each side of my body. And as you said, we have a natural. Most of us have a natural inclination to use one hand more and to use one point of view more, but you're going to be more balanced and your ability to function effectively in the world is going to be better if you purposely use the less dominant part to make it stronger. So my whole life, honestly, I was so negative growing up. Oh, so negative. And it really was like Kamu said, do I have a cup of coffee or end my life? And when I was about 18, I just was like, okay, I'm gonna have to do something here. I'm gonna have to find something as an alternative to the way I see the world, because this is. If this is the bus I'm on, I want off. So I started just.

[B]

You started decorating the bus.

[A]

I started decorating the bus with. And it was hard walking around with my perceptions. You know, the mind wandering would go to the negative and to try to force my wandering mind to say, actually, I don't know, let's see something positive. And I know this sounds, you know, merry sunshine, but, like, I would read something that would depress me horribly, and I still do this. And then, like, my Instagram feedback, it is preferential. Like, when I see something that makes.

[B]

Me love the world.

[A]

Otters and puppies. But also, you know, I cannot say enough about that man who plays his pink guitar to various species of animal.

[B]

They like it.

[A]

They sing along. They always do. The howler monkeys, the tiger, everything sings along. Cows. Oh, my God. In Santa Fe, I was talking to this sweet man. Now, this is an example. This is where my mind goes on when it wanders. He's so funny. He's this tough, brawling, like, cowboy, and he owns Texas longhorns, and he herds them around, and he's just like a Texas dude. And he said he read one of my books, and it was about how animals connect with us or whatever. And he went to the pasture and he put his hands on the railing, and his longhorns were in there. And they'd always had a very adversarial relationship. He gets on the field and his energy is so big, those cows just stampede away from him, Right? This time, he put his hands on the railing and he closed his eyes tight and he thought about love. And he wouldn't stop thinking about love. And it was hard. And he told me how hard it was. And then after about 10 minutes, he felt something. And he looked up and the cows were licking his hands.

[B]

He was like, man, are you okay? It shouldn't be this hard to think about love. What not.

[A]

They licked his hands.

[B]

They licked his little hands.

[A]

See, now that's what I mean by you gotta test it. Like, so you think, you know, animals are afraid of me. Really? Are you sure?

[B]

Can I tell you what I thought? What? People eat those tongues.

[A]

Well, that's your fault mode network, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah. I was like, must be nice to get licked by a cow while it's still got a tongue before someone puts it in a tin and eats it.

[A]

Oh, my God. Do they tin cow tongues in Australia?

[B]

I don't know, but it's seems probable.

[A]

Oh, my goodness.

[B]

I don't know why you brought Australia into this. That's just a general thing.

[A]

Well, I've never heard of tinned cow tongue. You totally took my default network, which was on love and cow tongues, and you took it to killing and tinning those cow tongues. Because your default mode network is running the way culture wants it to. And you are not wilder in that sense at all.

[B]

Truly. I can recognize through this conversation about cow tongues that I definitely have trained the algorithm of my own default mode network to be really sensitive to potential suffering of animals.

[A]

Like, yeah.

[B]

Over a long time. And so, yeah, it's absolutely true that it's like my brain, you know, to. To put this in a context. Right? My. Yeah, you're saying something cute. My brain is like casting around for some way for those happy cows having a moment to be suffering. Like, and it's true. Like, it's literally.

[A]

You know, I used to have that so much that it was one of the reasons I wanted to just check out, like, the thought of an animal suffering. I used to play this particular Bach sonata and my beagle really loved it. And I would start playing it and I hear his little toes come tapping in so he could lie under the piano and listen to it. And then I would make mistakes and I would literally go into anguish thinking, I could have played this perfectly for my beagle, but I messed up and he is suffering. That's how sensitive I was to the suffering of animals.

[B]

Yeah, you still get pretty uptight if you think a dog is going to be disappointed by anything.

[A]

Oh, I can't handle the disappointment of dogs.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Don't even. So, yeah, the whole animal suffering thing was just horrific, especially with climate change and habitat infringement and all that stuff. Stuff. And I still would, like, I am still a huge rabid activist for animals being allowed to Feel joy and have their own space and everything. But that's one thing I worked on for years in meditation, where I would get to the point where I could be completely, not just calm, but in a state of deep peace. Like in a tiny little. Like a hotel bathroom or something. I'd be sitting in there meditating, and everything was peace. And I would tell myself, oh, wait.

[B]

So the bathroom's not metaphorical. The bathroom's actual literal.

[A]

And I would. So now I think, okay, animals live with easy access to this state of sort of spiritual calm that they can drop into it. You know, you watch a cat, even a cat that's sick or something, and they'll go into a space of really, like, they don't fret the way we do. But that was something I had to teach my default node network because I was overwhelmed with the suffering of animals. Oh, I can't even describe it. As a child, God, I used to.

[B]

Rescue ants from my dog's water bowl. Like, I was so. I was like, oh, my God. And in my mind, it was like being tossed on the ocean and thinking all the thoughts, and I've barely got started. I have so much to give.

[A]

And then glub, glub, out, out. Yeah, I can't. Ugh. I try to rescue worms on the sidewalk when I'm going out for my morning walks, but when you touch them, they go completely berserk. Have you noticed?

[B]

You're very sensitive to that. I don't mind it because it reminds me of cow tongues.

[A]

But I literally am like, I'll see a worm headed the wrong direction out into the road instead of away from it, and I'm like, I have to save it. But how do I do that without distressing?

[B]

So I became a life coach.

[A]

I didn't say what form of life. I'm. I'm specializing in worms now. I thought I'd start simple and move.

[B]

Up worms and therapists.

[A]

But it's hard because there are certain things you just can't teach a therapist to do. Very good. I think I'll have to work on that where they squiggle. But it's okay. You know, they're not in. They're not going to, like, spend a lifetime with PTSD because I picked them up and threw them into the forest. I can do that. Okay, wait, back to what we were saying. We tend to go to the negative. It is considered maudlin and stupid and sort of sub intellectual to not go to the most negative scenario in our culture.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But unless we are open to all scenarios we are not in touch with reality at all. In. And if you'll remember, the whole motto of this show is culture comes to consensus. Nature means coming to our senses.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And if you're just walking along with your senses fully active, you will find, like, try it. I don't want to sound hokey, but count how many things you see every day that are working and just be amazed. People obey traffic laws. Most of the time, people are kind to each other. Are kind to each other. Most of the time. Most of the time. In an airport, when you lose something, somebody will try to return it instead of stealing it. Not all the time, but most of the time. Every time it happens. If you register that and start gearing your sort of default mode, network your resting face toward what is working instead of what is not working. What is done out of love rather than what is done out of hate. If you just give it equal numbers, the positive stuff way outweighs the negative.

[B]

Yeah, but you've got to integrate it. Right. Like, you can't just notice it because it slides off. It's still going to slide off. Like, the blinkers is the classic blinkers courses.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

They get put. Blinkers get put on them so that they can only look straight ahead, because if they get distracted, they could go anywhere.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

They could get scared. Yeah, they could. Like horses do.

[A]

So are you saying that I'm like, that you need blinkers? Blanker blinkers. Bleeker blankers. Venetian deaths. What are you saying?

[B]

So I'm saying that you. You widen the scope. You widen the scope of what you see, even though there's the potential for scariness.

[A]

Okay, so. But we're saying the culture is like only selecting for scariness.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

When you open your. Your blinkers, you see more good things.

[B]

If you're just listening to the audio of this, you're really missing out.

[A]

Yeah. This is really good.

[B]

Yeah. So what we're saying is if. If you are questioning your thoughts and you're just opening the parameters for what's possible, could this be possible? Could this be possible?

[A]

Yes. You're gonna be in. Don't know. Mind, and you're gonna pick up more data from your senses. And I'm saying those will probably, in many situations, veer toward the positive, where if you hadn't opened your perceptions, you would stick with negativity. And we had an example when we went prove it to dinner with our Pilates instructor and his delightful husband. We were out there with Ray. Our beloved Ray.

[B]

Ray. Pause.

[A]

I said to Ray, you have changed My life. Because I had just had surgery when I met you. I was very weak. I was very, like, lopsided in my physical strength and everything. And doing this little Pilates routine once a week with Ray really changed my body and therefore changed my life. And Ray, instead of going, oh, it was nothing. It was Joe Pilates. There literally wasn't Joe Pilates. He said, could you say that again? And I was like, sure. I was dying to say it again.

[B]

And he just sort of sat there like, this time I'm gonna.

[A]

He needed to take it in, and he wanted to make sure he heard it right.

[B]

Probably because the first time you said it, he was fighting off all those conditioned responses, right?

[A]

Like, I didn't do well enough.

[B]

She doesn't mean it. She's, you know, she's just blowing smoke.

[A]

She's. Yeah, there are all kinds of stuff that immediately comes up from resting misery face. But he wanted to just sit still and let it actually land. And after that dinner, I actually went back to some times in my life when people said something I wanted to hear, but I negated it because of my resting misery mind. And I thought, what if they actually meant it? What if they actually meant, you've helped me or I love you or I thought you were fantastic.

[B]

Ma', am, what are you doing? This is a blood bank.

[A]

Problem with blood banks. They're always asking, where did you get it? Where did you get it?

[B]

Why is it here in a bucket?

[A]

We totally stole that off the Internet.

[B]

What is that stealing if it's off the Internet?

[A]

Oh, okay, great. So that's it. We all have resting misery mind, and it's not realistic. An open mind is better. Or maybe even work out that positive side of your default mode network and check out what's working.

[B]

Is that true when you think a thought?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is that true? Especially if the thought makes you feel like shit?

[A]

First thing is realize that thoughts are optional. Thoughts. Your thoughts are not reality. Like there are infinite thoughts you could think on a given topic. No one of them would be actual reality. And you're choosing between a vast array, some of which will make you miserable and some of which will make you happy. That's the first thing. Your thoughts are not reality. And then if it's putting your default network into a state of misery, are those thoughts actually reality? Are they true? This is the Byron Katie work. Is that thought true? And you subject the thought to rigorous thinking, not just slap dash default mode network. Well, of course it's true. Everybody's mean all the time.

[B]

If it Feels good. Let it land. Take a minute with it, because that's how we integrate the alternatives. Feels bad. Question. It feels good. Can you say that again?

[A]

Can you say that again? Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And, like, sit under it. Like a warm shower.

[A]

Yeah. In your room. So now your room has no vases at all. It's just a room with a warm shower.

[B]

And you're sitting in the shower. So I imagine you sitting in, like, a plastic chair, like you have in a hospital when you're too weak to stand in the shower.

[A]

Yeah. And judging by the way you dress, you're not interested in the material world. So you're wearing nothing.

[B]

Well, you're in the shower, Marty.

[A]

I know. That's cool. Well, apparently people in their 30s and 40s do that.

[B]

Well, only if they're talking about AI.

[A]

And art, do they talk about other things. No. You're sitting there. And now your default mode network, your resting face, has gone to whatever's real. And when you focus on the things that actually make you function better, like from your health to your job to your relationships, you will find that the thoughts that make you function well are always more joyful.

[B]

And those thoughts, when they're kind of collected into a way of being, become humans who can solve problems, not just sneer.

[A]

Yeah. And the culture will tell you you're being stupid and that your thinking is feeble and that only sneering and hatred are right. And it must be nice to think a happy thought. You will be shamed, Shamed, shamed.

[B]

You will.

[A]

But choosing resting joy face, that's how you stay wild.

[B]

We hope you're enjoying Bewildered. If you're in the USA and want to be notified when you're. When a new episode comes out, text the word wild to 570-873-0144. We're also on Instagram. Our handle is Bewildered Podcast. You can follow us to get updates, hear funny snippets and outtakes, and chat with other fans of the show. Bewildered is produced by Scott Forster with support from the Brilliant team at mbi. And remember, if you're having fun, please rate and review and stay wild.

[A]

People are always asking me, how did you get into training life coaches? And the answer is backwards. I did it backwards. That is, I didn't set up a program and then look for people to fill it. It's just that so many people were coming to me for coaching that I realized in order to serve the market, I was going to have to train other people in my methods. That was decades ago. And now the Wayfinder program contains all my very best wisdom and tools for living, boiled down to their savory essence. Now, if that sounds interesting to you, head on over to MarthaBeck.com and find your way.