Rewrite the Rules

Summary

Podcast Summary: Bewildered

Episode: Rewrite the Rules

Hosts: Martha Beck & Rowan Mangan
Date: April 8, 2026

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Overview

In "Rewrite the Rules," Martha Beck and Rowan Mangan use their signature blend of humor, curiosity, and insight to explore how society's "rules" often disconnect us from our authentic selves. The episode centers on the metaphor of "cheat codes"—unexpected ways to break out of the cultural status quo and live more true to our inner nature. With playful back-and-forths and honest storytelling, the hosts encourage listeners to challenge consensus reality, reconnect with instinct, and find community in non-traditional ways. The conversation weaves personal anecdotes, philosophical musings, and practical ideas for creating a kinder, more connected world.

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Main Discussion Themes & Key Insights

1. The Cheat Code Metaphor – Breaking the Rules of Reality

• 00:10 – 01:08 Rowan introduces the metaphor: In video games, "cheat codes" allow you to do things not otherwise possible—like flying. This is likened to people in the real world suddenly defying social expectations and consequences.

  • Quote (Rowan, 00:10):
    “Today we're going to be talking about cheat codes. You’re playing a video game ... all of a sudden your character can fly. And this, you will be surprised to learn, is a metaphor.”
  • The analogy aims to highlight moments when people "break the rules" of cultural consensus without punishment.

• 17:05 – 19:23 Rowan and Martha expand the metaphor: when powerful figures “fly” (defy norms), what’s revealed is that reality’s rules are more flexible than we thought.

  • Rowan proposes: Since "bad actors" exploit these cheat codes, can the rest of us find our own—cheat codes for good?

2. Cultural Consensus vs. Personal Sensory Truth

• 20:10 – 25:31 Martha shares formative experiences of realizing truth is often just consensus—a realization sparked by confronting abuse within a religious institution where leaders denied reality, even with evidence.

  • Quote (Martha, 21:10):
    “I realized there would be no backlash, no punishment, no calling to account. And I remember ... going, oh, truth is, nothing but consensus. That was the moment when I separated coming to my senses from coming to consensus.”
  • This leads to a broader reflection on how media and authority can fracture our trust in our own perceptions.

• 25:17 – 26:16 Rowan invokes Orwell’s concept from 1984:

  • Quote (Rowan, 25:20):
    “The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
  • The key question: In a world where consensus is fracturing and reality is contested, how can individuals reclaim truth and agency?

3. Telling New Stories—Personal "Cheat Codes" for Transformation

• 27:13 – 33:25 Martha describes how, when old narratives no longer fit, inventing new stories can be genuinely transformative. Using the example of her son Adam’s Down Syndrome diagnosis:
  • She rejected the narrative of tragedy, experimented with different “stories,” and eventually embraced more mystical ideas, experiencing what felt like “cheat code” moments of deep connection and insight.
  • Quote (Martha, 31:48):
    "I was hoping that maybe... I’m not saying it’s true. No. But inside, this is what I was saying. I found a cheat code, y’all."
• 33:25 – 36:12 The cheat code moments are marked by validation from the world—“reality feeding back to you.” If a new story is right, the world responds with resonance, not resistance.

4. Connection Beyond Speech—The Hidden Mycelial Network

• 39:21 – 46:34 Rowan postulates that in a time of divided consensus, new forms of connection are arising “below the surface”—subtle, mycelium-like networks among kindred spirits.
  • Martha affirms this with anecdotes from her book tour, where strangers confided uncanny, spirit-filled experiences, reflecting her own evolving narrative about shamanism and connection.
  • Quote (Martha, 44:58): "The one cheat code is allowing people to do things very publicly ... the other cheat code is letting people do things silently and gently and incredibly powerfully without catching any attention at all."

5. Communities of Wildness—Aggregating "Nodes" of Authenticity

• 46:34 – 48:22 The hosts celebrate communities (like their “Wilder” online group), where people connect authentically, sending “nutrients” and support like fungal nodes in a healthy ecosystem.
  • Both above-ground (public consensus) and below-ground (hidden connection) movements are rising in tandem, balancing each other out.

6. Daring to Try—Pushing the Edges of Permission

• 49:30 – 51:54 Martha and Rowan challenge listeners not to wait for permission from culture, but to test forbidden possibilities—could we, for example, be creating genuine telepathic networks or transforming reality by believing differently?
  • Quote (Rowan, 51:37):
    “Maybe things that we think are absolutes are just serving suggestions. And that if we go, are we sure we can’t do that, absolutely sure we cannot do that, because what if we did?”
  • This is the invitation: to try the “unsayable,” experiment with new ways of mission, relationship, or community, and see what comes back.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Fracturing Consensus:
  • “Maybe consensus itself is getting cracks all through it, because I don’t even think people are believing the press conference. There’s just this proliferation of truths….”
    (Rowan, 25:46)
• On Inventing New Stories:
  • "At different crisis points in my life, I have broken the story of what would work in the world, and I have started telling another story.”
    (Martha, 28:01)
• On Silent Networks:
  • "Something is forming like the network of fungi and algae that exist underneath a forest ... those shaman born people are connecting ... linking the healers of the world."
    (Martha, 43:35)
• On Embarrassment and Edges:
  • "Our embarrassment and our social propriety keeps us from going to the edges of things ... but I think we have to go to the edges and bend the story to different degrees."
    (Martha, 48:33)
• On Experimentation:
  • “Dare to try believing in the things that you wish were true. And see what the world does. See what comes back.”
    (Martha, 52:00)

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Memorable Lighter Moments

• The hosts’ extended riff on Rowan’s “gangly scarecrow dance” (02:25 – 07:05), a playful, physical metaphor for midlife quirks and authentic expression.
• Vivid description of Costa Rican macaws and the oddities of animal perception (08:16 – 11:55), leading to the concept of umwelt, or each species’ unique sense-world.
• Jokes about “blood moons”, video game events, and creating new words (“sociomacy”)—infusing the episode with their trademark warmth and wit.

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Key Timestamps

• 00:10 – Introduction of the "cheat code" metaphor
• 15:18 – Rowan introduces today’s core topic: the unprecedented, consequence-free actions in culture
• 17:05 – The expansion of the video game metaphor (flying in the game = breaking social rules)
• 20:10 – Martha’s personal story about consensus vs. sensory reality
• 27:13 – How new narratives (cheat codes) arise in moments of crisis
• 31:48 – Martha’s “novel” as a coded way to introduce her cheat code
• 33:25 – Validation from the world as a signal you’re onto something (the "feedback loop")
• 39:21 – Speculation on secret collective networks—telepathy, shamanism, and hidden societies
• 46:34 – Celebrating hidden communities and positive, mycelium-like connections
• 49:30 – Encouragement to experiment, break embarrassing taboos, and “fly” with new possibilities
• 52:00 – Concluding invitation: Try something wild, and see what comes back

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Conclusion

"Rewrite the Rules" encourages listeners to question consensus, trust their own perceptions, tell new stories, and seek out the hidden networks of connection available to anyone daring enough to step beyond cultural expectations. Martha and Rowan offer both laughter and depth, showing that personal and collective transformation can (and should) be playful, brave, and community-rooted.

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To sum up:
Listen for the cheat codes. Break the rules with love and intention. The world is wilder—and more interconnected—than it seems.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Martha Beck.

[B]

And I'm Rowan Mangan. And this is another episode of Bewildered, the podcast for people trying to figure it out.

[A]

And what are we trying to figure out in this episode, Ro?

[B]

Well, today we're going to be talking about cheat codes. And what we mean by that is you're playing a video game and you accidentally cram a whole bunch of keys down at one time, and all of a sudden your character in the game can fly. And that wasn't supposed to be real, but look, you've. You've amazingly stumbled on this. This little cheat code that allows the physics of the game to change. And this, you will be surprised to learn, is a metaphor.

[A]

And not to say too much about it, but there seem to be people in our culture today who have found a cheat code that allows them to do things we never thought people could do without consequences.

[B]

Yeah. Just thing after thing after thing.

[A]

But maybe if they have found a cheat code, we can find cheat codes, too.

[B]

Maybe we can find cheat codes that we use for good, not evil.

[A]

Oh, let's talk about it.

[B]

Let's talk about it.

[A]

Hello, the lovely peoples. This is Marty, Martha, inviting you to a free masterclass that I have made called five paths to your purpose. Probably the most common question I get from people is, how do I find my purpose? Why don't I feel that I'm on purpose? Well, it turns out there are certain things you have to do to find your purpose, and I broke them down into five, and I made a little masterclass about it. So if you'd like to see it, just go to marthabeck.compurpose and you will be able to watch it without any charge at all. So, Rowy, what are you trying to figure out right now?

[B]

Well, Marty, I'm trying to figure out myself through the lens of what you tell me about myself.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

And I would like to reference something that was recently said that I have written down word for word.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

That I would like you to help me just like, help me understand myself better. Okay, this is what you said.

[A]

Was I fully awake?

[B]

I don't remember.

[A]

Okay, okay. But this is.

[B]

It was a compliment that you said to me. I said, and I quote, I love the little gangly scarecrow dance you've started to do since reaching midlife. And this was such an interesting bit of language to me that I immediately thought, I think our bewildered listeners are gonna wanna hear about this gangly little scarecrow dance that I've started doing since reaching midlife.

[A]

They pay me for my wordage But I don't. Because it applies. No, you should. For that you just did it. You were going into the gangly little scarecrow dance. This is what she does. She's. I have to tell. Okay, this is what you do. I'll talk to you. I will not talk to the other people so that they can defend me. Because they will also one day see you do this. And they'll go, oh, she. So what happens is. I'm not sure what triggers it, except midlife. But what happens is you start to lift your elbows really high on each side.

[B]

In what circumstances?

[A]

You're like a velociraptor. No, they can't fly. You're like a pterodactyl opening its leathery wings.

[B]

But why am I doing this?

[A]

I don't know. Midlife.

[B]

But what circumstances are there where I.

[A]

Home. I think it's when. Sometimes it's when you feel. It's true. When you feel sweaty, that's what you say. You don't look sweaty. You always just say you're sweaty. And then the elbows start to go out and up toward the shoulder height. Right.

[B]

Right.

[A]

To allow for better airflow at that moment. But if you just sort of hung there like Pinocchio, half strung up or whatever, that would be sweat related. But then what happens is once. Once the upper arms are fully horizontal, like parallel to the ground, then you begin to waggle your forearms and then you cry.

[B]

You.

[A]

You kind of squat. I swear to God you do. But I'm going to a very wide stance with a squat. So now you've got your. Your elbows are up, your forearms are dangling. Your thighs are also parallel to the ground. So upper arms, thighs.

[B]

This sounds like I'm doing the haka, like the New Zealand All Blacks or something.

[A]

It's a little scary for those of us in the room when it just happens. And then you just sort of like scuttle around the room for a while.

[B]

You haven't mentioned that. I tend to try and maintain very intense eye contact with you throughout. That's trip.

[A]

You do.

[B]

I like that part of it.

[A]

And then you start sliding. That's right. You don't so much scuttle. You keep your feet where they are. Then you slide your upper body back and forth.

[B]

It's called dancing. Sliding back and forth.

[A]

And I'm so happy you found it at midlife. I think we figured out why you did it.

[B]

I think it was all about sweat. I don't think.

[A]

No. You got a balance board and you learned to, like, wiggle on it.

[B]

Oh, I know why I do it. Why do you Some. Okay, this is a callback to a long time ago episode where I had to do a funny little thing with my thigh in a supermarket.

[A]

If I can count the number of times I've used that sentence.

[B]

I have this thing where every now and again my thigh needs me to do it. A certain wiggle to release and it clicks.

[A]

That's what she said.

[B]

It'll do a little click. Someone wrote to me about this and went, yeah, this has really happened to me. And thank you. And I was like, no worries. I'm. I am a spokesperson for people who need to do weird little thigh things.

[A]

What would happen in the supermarket if you did not do the weird little thigh wiggle?

[B]

Okay, I will tell you. Try to follow this. I would be slightly uncomfortable. Aware of it and aware of it.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

You know how it is when you go click for something. Right now, just.

[A]

If I move my head right now, it sounds like there's popcorn popping in my damn neck. But you don't see me dancing. Why? I'm beyond midlife.

[B]

Oh, dear. I don't think I'm getting anywhere with my attempts to figure things out.

[A]

I think it's. I think that if you just go into the dance and keep your eyes locked and dance long enough, there will be a day when it will be given to you. The meaning sacred knowledge.

[B]

Oh, my God. I am a shaman.

[A]

Your eyes suddenly lost all focus.

[B]

Yay. What are you trying to figure out?

[A]

Mine is stupid compared to yours.

[B]

Compared to the gangly scarecrow dance. The Pterodactyl Wiggle.

[A]

The Pterodactyl Wiggle. Yeah, it's about. You know, when we just got back from Costa Rica. Yes. I remembered that in just 10 short sentences. We got back from the beautiful resort Imiloa at Costa.

[B]

Not a resort. Institute.

[A]

Institute. Institute. We did a retreat there. And it's in the rainforest, up overlooking the ocean. It's absolutely supernally beautiful. And we get up every morning and they have brought us coffee, and we go sit on this little beautiful Balinese deck because they brought these Balinese buildings and put them there in the jungle without cutting a single tree. And we watch this incredible expanse of green and then the ocean beyond it. I mean, this does not suck. And then two gorgeous, brilliant scarlet birds with blue and yellow wingtips fly by us, always as a couple. Right. Sometimes there's a throuple. We've seen throuples.

[B]

There have been thruffles.

[A]

And in this incredible Garden of Eden, like Scene. They make a sound, and the sound

[B]

that they make, this most elegant, gorgeous.

[A]

Oh, my gosh, everything's.

[B]

They look like an angel flying by.

[A]

And they go. And I can't do this without doing it loudly. I don't think you can make this noise without making it loud.

[B]

Back away from the mic.

[A]

Blow away the mic. Here you go. They go. See, you have to scream it. It's horrifying. It's like somebody.

[B]

You have to. You have to.

[A]

You can't make. You can't. Nope. Can't do it softly. You have to scream. And they do. They scream loudly like it fills the valleys and. Okay, so here's the thing. Here is what I'm trying to figure. These are birds that famously can be taught to make any sound. They can sing opera. I mean, convincingly. They can, like, they can rap. They can say, how you doing? And they can say it in exactly that voice. I once saw a macaw in a pet store, and people kept coming up to it and going, bollywater, cracker, paliwada cracker. For some reason, that's what you say to Mikaws. I don't. There's so much to figure out about this Ro. I'm in the weeds. But this. This bird, after people would come and talk to it incessantly, would turn to them and go, what? Why? Given the ability to make any gorgeous sound they want to make, macaws decided, we're going to go with figure that. Figure me.

[B]

That's beautiful to their ears. Like, why are we the arbiters of what sounds are awful and screeching and vile?

[A]

I am searching my soul for this. And it brings up another thing. That dogs can smell 10,000 times better than we can. But what do they want to do? They want to push their faces into a rotting carcass and just go, oh, yeah. Like, they can smell at a level that would absolutely make us faint with joy when we walked past a rose bush. But they're shoving their faces into dead things.

[B]

Okay, two really important points I want to raise here.

[A]

Yes, please.

[B]

One, dogs can smell time. Two, dogs can smell time. Two. Humans can smell petrichor. They sound the smell of rain on dry rain on rock.

[A]

Yeah. Rain

[B]

more strongly.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Than sharks can smell like a water. We have, like, evolved to. To, like, be obsessed with the smell of rain hitting earth, and I understand that. I think we should just dwell on that for a good hour or two.

[A]

I'm going to. I may be up all night.

[B]

Like, just like, whoa, whoa.

[A]

Man, I don't even need Psychedelics with you around. That's incredible. Yeah. And maybe they're going. Maybe the dogs are going, oh, my God, they're smelling rain on rocks. What is wrong with them?

[B]

Disgusting.

[A]

They could find a carcass somewhere, wear it like a nose bag. Yeah, I don't. And what it does say is that the perceptual experiences of other animals are very different from ours. And actually, you've been reading a book on this. I've been reading a book on this. And then Karen's been reading yet a third book on, like, everybody's reading a book on this that I know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Mine is An Immense World by Ed Young. Oh, my God, what a great book.

[B]

Very good book. So literally, I'm up all night in that book. It's like umwelt or something.

[A]

Yeah, well, if you hadn't said it, I would have remembered Umza. Umfelt. Yeah, Umfelt. It's the in felt reality sense or perceptual sense of different animals. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. It talks about bats and why they, like, they echolocate. And all of a sudden I thought maybe Ro is learning to echolocate, because humans can learn that, you know.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Yes, they can.

[B]

I can.

[A]

I think that's what you're starting to do at midlife. The big blue butterflies we see in Costa Rica, they have ears on their wings.

[B]

So for people who have just tuned into the world, it's a very serious podcast exploring a lot of, like, socio. Phenomena.

[A]

Socio phenomena, is it? Yeah, Socio. Phenomenal.

[B]

Sociology.

[A]

Sociomacy.

[B]

Socioc. I don't even know what that is.

[A]

I'm just making up words now. Let's get. Let's.

[B]

Socialism. We are serious individuals.

[A]

I'm. I. I will never figure this out, but it's fun to try.

[B]

Let's do a podcast.

[A]

Let's please, please do a podcast.

[B]

Hi there. I'm Ro and I'll be your podcaster for today. Do you know how to tip your podcaster? It's actually pretty easy. You can rate our pod with lots of stars, all your stars. You can review it with your best superlatives. You can even subscribe or follow Bewildered, so you'll never miss an episode. Then, of course, if you're ready to go, all in. Our paid online community is called Wilder A Sanctuary for the Bewildered. And I can honestly say it's one of the few true sanctuaries online. You can go to wildercommunity.com to check it out. Rate, review, subscribe, join, and you all

[A]

have a great day now. So we talk a lot on the podcast about coming to our senses, which sounds like you could do it by yourself, but weirdly, it isn't.

[B]

No, you actually can't do it alone. And I think, especially right now, when everything out there feels very polarized and overwhelming and noisy, people really often don't have a place where they can just go and be completely themselves.

[A]

And that's why we started Wilder, which is our online community. And it's for people who really want kindness and connection and belonging without the strident, divisive argument that it's seems to be everywhere these days.

[B]

Yeah. In Wilder, we explore a new theme every month to help us stay in touch with our true nature. And there are all these live events on Zoom that are so fun from, like, body doubling, co working, parties, meditations,

[A]

teaches meditations and classes.

[B]

Mari does Earth School, which is brilliant, and frequent meditations that we do together. And it is just a group of people who are the best. So if you've ever listened to this podcast and thought, I wish I could go deeper with this, or I wish I could talk to more people about these kinds of ideas, Wilder is where that happens.

[A]

It really is. So if you want to come join [e-mail] we would love to see you there.

[B]

Marty. Here is what I wish to talk about today, in the time that we're living in. There is a phenomenon taking place that people kind of mention in passing, but I don't think we give enough attention to. And that is the unprecedented shit, to quote Anita Franco in minute one, that goes on every day that I think for about a decade, a lot of us have been sitting there looking at the news and saying, well, surely this will be the thing where there will be some sort of consequence, or this will be the thing where something will

[A]

happen that's beyond the pale. Someone will put a stop to this soon.

[B]

One will put a stop to this, and it doesn't happen. And so what I feel like we're not taking full advantage of here is that in the egregious failure to observe basic norms of decency, certain people in this world have revealed something really cool. And that is that we're living in a world in which unprecedented can take place of all kinds. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So imagine this video game. We love video game analogies. It's like we pretend we understand what

[A]

the kids, I don't know anything about them, they do it like this with their little thumbs. It's delightful.

[B]

You're playing a video game. This is the world, then. And in this world, people don't fly. They walk.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

Right. There's gravity. Stands to reason. So one day you look up and there's someone flying through the air in

[A]

the game, not while you're playing. You look up and there's something.

[B]

No, because that would be really cool inside the game, okay? The game is reality. So you've got to like, really deal in the metaphor.

[A]

Jump into the metaphor here, okay? In the metaphor, you're in the game.

[B]

You're in the game. Someone's flying, but you don't know how to fly in the game. So what? And this metaphorically is what's happening with people doing bad and getting away with it is they're suddenly flying and you're like, but no one's ever flown before. Stop that. Someone's got to stop that. That's not fair. Right?

[A]

You will fall down. They always do. But they don't.

[B]

But then they just don't. So here's what I think we should do with this situation.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Metaphorically, we have to assume that that player who's flying through the air has figured out what is called a cheat code in video game land, right? So like, say you're playing and one day by accident, you hit control option shift. I'm trying to think of something that's not max specific to be like ecumenical up, right? And that's not something that they've been told they can do, but when they do this combination of keys, it's probably a lot more keys than just that they go up in the air, right? So what? The information that we now have is that we can go up in the air if we figure out the code.

[A]

Somebody has figured out a cheat code to get up in the air.

[B]

Yes. It. The game allows for that, Right? So that's what I want to talk about is how to use this power that we've become aware of for good, for make good world, not bad world.

[A]

And actually, it's interesting because you kind of have to pull in this metaphor, like the way you just described it is very soothing. It explains it as well as anything ever has that there's a cheat code in the reality we're living in that. I mean, they are doing something that is. That could not happen for many, many, many decades. And being able to say, oh, there's a cheat code. The parameters of behavior are wider in the game than I ever knew was true. It is kind of like, oh, the game has shifted to something different than I thought the game was.

[B]

To give you a real life example of what using that Cheat code could look like is say, you know, something happens in the country, and someone. And a lot of people film that from different angles on their phones.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then. And people have seen it. It's clearly like real footage hasn't been doctored. And shortly thereafter, someone calls a press conference and says, no, that did not happen. That was not what you have seen from three different angles. And countless witness statements that didn't happen.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then they just continue with their lives. And so that is the equivalent of like, oh, my God, gravity doesn't always apply in this world. So I'm just trying to decode it a little bit so we know what we're talking about.

[A]

Yeah, I'm glad you did. And I remember when I was in my 20s and I was trying to deal with a history of abuse, trigger warning and abuse that was sort of interwoven with religion and, like, realizing that abusive girls was really pretty much epidemic in this religious group. And I really thought that the leaders of that religious group wanted to save and protect children. And so I was in a position to actually go interact with them and say, this is happening. We have all this statistical evidence. We have all these women who are suffering and the whole thing. And it was like, no, that doesn't happen. And I realized there would be no backlash. There would be no punishment. There would be no calling to account. There would be no consequence whatsoever. And I remember getting out of my car after coming from one of these meetings and standing on my little Utah driveway looking out over the valley and going, oh, truth is, nothing but consensus. And that was actually the moment when I separated coming to my senses from coming to consensus. I've never told that story, even though we use that every time we make a podcast. But that was happening in this little teapot tempest that I was looking at, and now it's like it's the same thing over again. And it's the same strange magic that so many people in that religion are doing their absolute best and trying their hardest to be good in every way. And then some people just don't have to. And they never. Even if they get caught, nothing happens.

[B]

And it's an exaggeration of. Of a quality of patriarchy, I guess, that. That, you know, you can sort of see, but it's. It's just become so flagrant.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That. That for a certain set of humans, you can do whatever you want.

[A]

And I always thought, well, that's because that was a crazy group of religious zealots. Thank God I live in a broader community in which the church and state are separate and everybody has got their feet on the ground in an empirical reality. Turns out if. If. If somebody believes they can swing consensus by standing at a podium and saying it never happened, if they can hold that with such ferocity that enough people gang up behind it and say, that's the way we're gonna define reality. That's when culture has fully pulled you off your nature. That's when something very, very bizarre is starting to happen. And you're right. I think it happens at the turning of epochs. I don't think you can do that at any time in history. It comes at particular levels.

[B]

Blood moon. Blood moon.

[A]

What? What the hell? Blood is a blood moon.

[B]

I think it's like an event that happens in a video game where it's like all the monsters that you've killed respawn or something. So that it doesn't just get this.

[A]

Every game or just a game you once played?

[B]

I don't for sure know. Do you know Drew? Drew doesn't know. No, I don't know. I'll need to talk to Adam. I'll get back to you. I'm pretty sure it's in more than one game.

[A]

That's really interesting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now that we mention it, I think it does come when things are starting to rattle the cage of that particular culture. It's starting to break at the edges.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And so the physics of the whole world doesn't apply.

[A]

And so things.

[B]

It's like when the Nothing comes in the never ending story.

[A]

What? What the hell are you talking about?

[B]

The nothing? You know how the whole world of. In the never ending story of Fantasia is being taken over by this thing called the Nothing.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And in the movie, it's like everything starts shaking and.

[A]

Oh, that's so interesting.

[B]

The Nothing is coming.

[A]

But so here's the thing. I think this is a pattern. I mean, it's really interesting that you just brought this up. I hadn't thought about it that way. But what I was dealing with in that religion was a religion where because of the Internet, information was becoming available that disproved a lot of the truth claims of that religion. When I was growing, growing up in Utah, there was a comedy soap opera called Mary Hartman. Mary Hartman, where one of the characters was gay, even though they never really talked about it. And that was legally banned from being broadcast until like 11 at night. So all the children would be asleep and most of the adults as well.

[B]

Except the gay ones.

[A]

Except the gay ones. That's when they wake up. Yeah. And then. And then you come. You bring the Internet into it, and suddenly every kid with a phone can check the veracity of some religious truth claim, and it doesn't hold up very well. So it was on its. It was shaking. The whole thing was shaking. And I'm not sure if people were doing worse things. I think it was that things were coming to light that had never been prosecuted, and they were still not prosecuted, but they were getting away with it in broad daylight now.

[B]

God, it's so interesting, the idea you can check the veracity with your phone, because I feel like that's gone, too.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

That was there for about five seconds. Now that's gone.

[A]

And scenes will show us what really happened.

[B]

And it's deep fakes, and it's like. And. And that's the Orwell thing, right? From 1984, where he says, the party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.

[A]

Most essential command. So I think we're living at a time when this issue of, do you join consensus or do you stay with your damn senses? Like, we're seeing it playing out on tv, people looking at the videos and going, no, it isn't. No, it isn't.

[B]

And maybe consensus itself is. Is, you know, getting cracks all through it, because I don't even think. I think the press conference. I don't think people are believing the press conference. There's just this proliferation of truths. Right. Of possible truths. And so what our job is. Is to, like, what's the cheat code like? We want to build a beautiful world based on respect and responsible uses of resources.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

You know, just like, peace, love and understanding. Rock and roll and. Sorry, sex. Love and rock and roll. Peace, love and understanding.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

That's my mission statement.

[A]

Cool. Works for me.

[B]

But we need to figure out the cheat code. Right? Right.

[A]

Because we're still playing within the ancient confines of the game as we learned it. And the cheat code, people are flying all around us, and we're like, someone will do something any minute. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you see that after things start to collapse in anything, people trying desperately to hold onto the old rules, and they never really work.

[B]

And so there's great power in knowing the cheat code. And you and I were trying to figure out, like, what is the cheat code that's being used here if we continue to torture our beloved metaphor. And I think you landed on maybe what's happening, one sort of mechanism that's happening that we could call the Cheat code, I think.

[A]

And this is happening all around us. People are proliferating stories. They're spinning different narratives. And I think those of us who are trying to do it by the old rules, stick with the old narratives. But when you say, see that people are doing outlandish things that nobody is supposed to be able to do, you kind of have to broaden the story of why things are happening, like the story of cause and effect. So once you broaden the story, you can start experimenting with different narratives that describe the world as you're seeing it. And here's what I found. And I know it sounds a little abstract, but I can get very specific at different crisis points in my life. I have broken the story of what would work in the world, and. And I have started telling another story.

[B]

Broken the story of what would work in the world.

[A]

Okay, so here's. I've told it a million times, and I'm sorry that I always use this example, but it was the first time it happened. So when I'm pregnant with Adam and it turns out he has down syndrome, and people told me, this is a tragedy. It's gonna ruin your life. He will not have a life worth living.

[B]

And that's the story that Daenerys was giving you about your situation, especially at Harvard.

[A]

Right. So it was a really strong version of that story. Intellect, mar. Meritocracy, achievement, hard work. Those are what. That's how you get ahead. Nobody got ahead by being like, not even knowing how to do math. Right? Nobody got ahead in that way. But there I was, and I was like, I can't stand that world. So I tried a bunch of different narratives, like the narrative that said, oh, they have these early intervention things. He won't be any different than any other child. People with down syndrome can be exactly like other children and other adults. I tried telling that one. A lot of parents I knew were clinging to that very hard. I remember once saying in a group of. When I was actually teaching some parents once, I said, Look, I'm 28 or whatever it was, and I'm teaching myself to play the piano. I could tell myself that I can be a world renowned concert pianist, but I don't think that's gonna work no matter how hard I practice. And I pretty much got nailed to the wall and set on fire. Like, anyone can be anything. They kept saying. And I was like, that story felt good to me, but it didn't work.

[B]

It's almost like, so if the cheat code is control shift up. And they're saying, I Just press F and G and up and you jump and you jump and you jump and you jump.

[A]

Yeah. But here's the thing. And so I kept casting a wider and wider net of story, and I tried a really crazy one, and it started working.

[B]

What was the story?

[A]

Well, it's coming out now in a. What I think is wonderful, but I guess it's controversial podcast called the Telepathy Tapes. I had these weird psychic experiences while I was. Once I got pregnant. What if this kid was a little factory of paranormal abilities? Is that why I was able to sort of know what was happening with people I loved who were far away? I was vivid when I was pregnant with him. Is that where I had these incredibly vivid dreams that were so intense they would make my teeth buzz when I woke up that there was a purpose for this child's life. You know, like, I started getting into a very mystical way of defining human life. And so the first thing I can force this to be the way I want it to. I really, really wanted that to work. I tried so hard. And anybody else out there who's trying it so hard, you keep trying. When I started saying, I think he's telepathic, I started having experiences that worked. I would look down and find myself flying in the game. And I kept it a secret for a long time because it is so outside consensus. And I remember when I wrote it as a novel, and then my editor said, but I've come to know you and all of this is true. And I was like, oh, that's really

[B]

funny, because it's like you're trying to write it as the narrative, as a novel, as like a workaround for the culture.

[A]

And I was hoping that maybe. I'm not saying it's true. No. But inside, this is what I was saying. I found a cheat code, y'.

[B]

All.

[A]

Here's a novel, it's not real, but maybe it'll slide you sideways into longing for that kind of magic, as I now realize I was doing before Adam was born. I was desperate for that kind of beauty and that kind of mystery and that kind of magic. And when it started working, I was afraid to tell people about it because that was getting away with something that was. I wasn't suffering the consequences I was supposed to suffer.

[B]

Right.

[A]

In the old rules, the shoe was on the other foot at that point.

[B]

Yeah. And how come you get to fly?

[A]

That has happened periodically. Whenever I hit something. Actually, it goes with the way I now know the brain works. If you're working a problem in your life, that is, like, unsolvable. And you're trying to analyze it and work with the left hemisphere, which is very methodical and logic logical, and you hit an impasse. But there's a very, very strong feeling of wanting to find the solution. Sometimes the right hemisphere of the brain, without your knowing it, if you go and just do random things like taking a walk or taking a bath or whatever, it will do something called a far transfer, and it will link ideas that you've never had before that have never been linked before in your brain, and suddenly it will flare forward, a new set of rules that you never knew existed. Your right hemisphere will give you a cheat code.

[B]

Very cool.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Can I give another example? Yeah, please do it. Please do it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So I used this in a book I wrote once.

[B]

Was it a novel?

[A]

The first novel. Fiction? No, it was the last one I wrote. It's called Beyond Anxiety. And it's about these firefighters, these wildfire fighters. In 1949, they were called out to fight this fire. And the section chief, or whatever his name was, Wag Dodge, and he had 17 dudes with him. And they went out and they were fighting this forest fire in a valley. And it was coming. The burn was coming down one side, and they were trying to create a fire break by digging with their shovels and axes and whatnot. And then Wag looked up and he saw that the wind had picked up and the fire embers were being blown over to the other side. So they were now in this choked canyon with fire that was going to be coming down both sides. And he knew that it was going to come faster than they could run, run out of the valley. So he started. He got somebody's attention, and they all started screaming and running. And he kept saying, don't run. Don't run. But they didn't really hear him. This is 1949. So he didn't have any fancy equipment. He took out a book of matches. He had a wool blanket for beating the fire. He stood on a patch of grass and set fire to the grass in a circle around himself. He waited for that grass to burn over. And then just before the fire hit him, he. He threw himself in the burned patch, covered himself with the blanket, and the fire went over him because there was nothing for it to eat around him. No one ever used that technique before. No one had proposed that as a potential solution to being caught in a forest fire. It came to him instantaneously when he was absolutely at an impasse. And it was pure inspiration. And now all Firefighters do it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It was like a cheat code for the guys who are running out of the valley. He stayed and lived. He was the only one that lived, actually. So it was tragic. But it's a really interesting example of somebody suddenly finding a cheat code. It works. It's just not anything anybody's ever done before.

[B]

I'm trying to get drill down into when we know we've hit the correct cheat code, right? And when, like, versus when we're pressing a lot of buttons, but we're still just jumping along the screen. So you were something about like, you. You. You get the. You get the world starts feeding back to you. Validation.

[A]

Right. So when I was trying to believe that I could force my child to be different than he is, there was a sense of, like, grasping for things, but never quite. It was like trying to climb a glass building. I wanted so much to climb that thing, but there was no purchase.

[B]

And you went, spider Man.

[A]

I was not Spider Man. Though, oddly, I came. Things got better when I decided to believe that he is basically Spider Man. No, but he's not Spider Man. But when I started to believe things about the nature of his consciousness, for example, he never became very verbal. And I mentioned the telepathy tapes podcast. So when Adam's in his 30s from a completely different source, I get feedback that other parents of children who are sub verbal are also experiencing evidence that their children are telepathic, are able to communicate without words. And, oh, I've been so spanked for even believing this. People are controversial about it. That is my experience. And I was not in conversation with those parents, and they weren't in conversation with each other. Apparently the children are in conversation, are in conversation with each other, even though they ostensibly can't communicate verbally, but they're talking to each other over distance. Again, controversial, but that's what's happening. You're out on the edges of what the culture will accept. So when I say I think my kid is kind of telepathic, I'm breaking the rules. And people go, when's that going to come down? That's going to come back to Biter. But instead I hear evidence from somebody else. There's like, yeah, I think my kid was the same way.

[B]

So I've got an idea. What if the, you know, you've given this example of the way that the cheat code can work in your life is, you know, you start having these telepathic experiences when you're pregnant with Adam, who has a similar brain difference to this group of people that 30 years later, turn up on a podcast and can. Can be telepathic with each other. And so what if, instead of that being an illustrative example of the thing, what if this is actually what we're talking about? What if this is part of the cheat code is actually the fact that in this moment of chaos, where once one storytelling machine is saying, disbelieve the evidence of your eyes and ears here, and that means be utterly cut off from your instincts, from each other, from any sort of way of knowing that it's just listen to me, right? And I will feed you reality. And. And, you know, there's whole channels devoted to that on tv. So what if the counter point to that that's happening is that the other storytelling functions that are much quieter are actually happening when we're. We're forging connections with each other in ways that are not apparent to the eye?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And the way. So this is one of the cheat codes that has worked for me. I've told different stories in my life. They've sort of presented. I've been presented with data I couldn't understand. Then I'd go try to find a story that fit. Most of them didn't fit, but then one would fit. So I had this encounter with a sangoma, a shaman in Africa that I could not explain. I had a dream that turned out to be a dream that means you have to see the shaman. I didn't know that, but some of my friends from the local tribe brought this woman to meet me. Dark, in the dark of night, outside in an African chilly midnight. And I could not explain what happened to me when that woman looked at me like she was just this little refugee from Mozambique. And I could feel myself being red almost. It was as though I had these icy needles going, ching, ching, ching, ching, ching, ching. It wasn't painful, but it wasn't fun. And then she started telling my whole life with the bones she was throwing and everything. And I thought, okay, maybe. Maybe she's making that all up. Maybe she's just got some really smart hits. But something happened there. There's something in this ancient practice that affected me physically, and I can't deny it. So I spent the next five years. One of the things she told me was, you have to understand this. And so I spent a lot of time doing it, and I told many stories, and they didn't work. But the story that did work is that in every population, there are people born. Who are. They called them the shaman born. People who were born to be like the Healers and medicine, people of traditional cultures. And I wrote a book about the shamans of a culture that has no shamans, which is modern culture. And I listed all these characteristics and the things that I saw that were demonstrably real, that did not fit into my western materialist worldview. And I wrote that book and I put down the list of characteristics and somebody gave it to you in. I mean, you can tell that part of the story.

[B]

I think we've told it before.

[A]

I think we've told it before. But that, okay, so that story, oh my goodness, there are shaman born people. And I thought, okay, why, why am I getting this? Why am I getting this story? And the story that I came up with was we're supposed to work together at a time in human history that is very, very perilous, where healing is deeply needed. That was the story I told in my book. My editor hated it. She didn't believe it was true. And then I went on the book tour and I may have said this before too, but it was so weird. Every single driver, when you're on a book tour, you have a driver who takes you around town to different bookstores and you have a chaperone who sort of makes sure you don't wander off into the river or whatever.

[B]

Every driver, when it's you, every driver

[A]

and every chaperone were, they would just start like rivers of speech, like proving my hypothesis. I'd get into the car and this guy would go, you know, the driver would suddenly say, I need to tell you something. I feel really, really bad that I was a hunter for a while. I was a soldier, I learned to use a gun. And then I came to the back to the US and I went hunting. But I swear I can feel the animals souls. And now I only use my hunting gear to get go out at deer hunting season and chase away from hunters. And I'd be like, why are you telling me this? And he'd be crying and saying, I don't know. But it was dozens of people. It got.

[B]

So they were all deer.

[A]

No, they were different things. They would say something like, you know, when I was a kid, my father was stationed in Japan after the war. And I would go into the Shinto shrines and I would see these little forest spirits and they're real. And again, tears. They were real. They. The forest, the stones are sentient. I know they are. I'm like, you're a taxi driver.

[B]

So people that you were encountering on the book tour about these, the shaman born team were like, people you were encountering were reinforcing your hypothesis.

[A]

Yeah, the story was coming back at me.

[B]

So the story was telling itself to you in three dimensions?

[A]

Yeah. So the. And you mentioned the mycelial network, which is the. It's my latest story. This is my latest cheat code that we see all this really shocking behavior in public that's very loud and very violent sometimes, but silently, subtly, beneath the visible landscape, something is forming like the network of fungi and algae that exist underneath a forest that send nutrients to different parts that those shaman born people are connecting with. Oh God, I sound like such a lunatic. Connecting with each other the way the kids in the telepathy tapes did. And they are part of the shaman born. I mean, being neurodivergent is a massive marker for shamanism in most cultures. So there's this like telepathic or apparently telepathic sensibility that is linking the healers of the world, the human healers of the world to one another. And it is the balance for the violence, for the cheat code that lets people do things that are horrifying without consequence.

[B]

I just had a really cool image come into my head because earlier when I was talking about the fracturing of consensus in this moment where no one's agreeing with each other about the evidence of their eyes and ears, right. And I pictured like when, when glass breaks and it does that, that spiderweb like design of breaking and. And that's the fragmenting of consensus. And that's the one part. And then at the same time you have the web, that is the web of connection, the fungal web beneath the surface. And that's almost like as above, so below kind of model where one thing is dividing and shattering. Mirror image is connecting.

[A]

Oh, that is. And you love that. And it always seems to work that way. That's one of the ways the story works for me, that in this game, if you see someone flying because there's a cheat code, there's also a cheat code for the underworld. Like there's always a balancing, almost a polar opposite that's happening. And the interesting thing is that one of the ways in which these two phenomena are very different in my current story is that the one cheat code is allowing people to do things very publicly and very loudly and very frighteningly. And the other cheat code is letting people do things silently and gently and incredibly powerfully without catching any attention at all.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

I don't know why, but when I put that story into the world, it comes back as valid through the evidence of my eyes and ears.

[B]

Well, how about, like, if we look at our wilder community online and the group of people that gathers electronically from all over the world, everywhere, and we come together and I mean, talk about, like, mycelial network or whatever, like, people who get each other connecting in this way. It is just like the nodes, right? Yeah. Sending. Sending nutrients, sending messages back and forth. I mean, it is. It's. I feel like. And I think we've talked about this on the podcast before, but the moment for these unlikely communities, you know, these sort of ragtag groups of people to hunker together, whether it's in using the new technologies or using the technologies of you live next door to me.

[A]

Yeah. That classic technology. It's magical and it works.

[B]

Yeah. I love the idea that both is happening and both things must rise at

[A]

the same time, and they aggregate naturally. And that's really true. Like, resistance movements are fascinating. I mean, we felt really strongly compelled to move to Kingston, New York, for some reason. Reason we didn't understand. And you were telling me about, we've got to move to this place. It's the most wonderful place, which it is. And I was like, I don't even care. I'm obsessed with the abolitionist Sojourner Truth. And then as I was researching Sojourner Truth, it turned out she lived in Kingston, New York, and there's a national park devoted to her and everything. So that's why we moved. Reality started feeding back, like, really direct instruction, saying, yeah, it's a good idea for you to move to Kingston, New York. Part of the arrangement of the Mycelial Network.

[B]

And there were so many things that were about connections with other people that were happening in that. In the way that reality was mirroring that the story we were telling was also telling itself back to us.

[A]

And it keeps getting like. We keep meeting more people that we think are living in France or something, and they're all living in Woodstock. It's crazy. So. So here's what I think we need to do is most of us would be embarrassed to even attempt the things that some public people are doing very, very shamelessly and getting away with it. Yeah, we're embarrassed. Our embarrassment and our social propriety keeps us from going to the edges of things. And even doing this podcast has made me feel really socially weird because I'm going to the edges of things, the edges of what the culture will tolerate from me without calling me crazy. But I think we have to go to the edges and bend the story to different degrees in order to cope with the way it's being Bent like, we have to have cheat codes that work as powerfully as the cheat codes in that public figures are using.

[B]

Right, Right. Because another cheat code is that you say, you can't do that, and they go, watch me. And you go, but something bad will happen. And they go, no, it won't. And so let's say the thing. You know what? Let's say the unsayable thing. What if we're all connected telepathically, you know, and. And we're all like nodes in a network that's gonna. You know, that's. That's slowly gonna liberate this reality into something much more beautiful.

[A]

It's so funny, because I think I've told this story before, but right after the three of us got together, you, me, and Karen, that bent the edge of my story. I'll tell you. It really did. But people just started taking bets on how long it would take to implode. It was exactly the same thing. It's gonna. They're gonna suffer the consequences. They can't get away with this. And we're like, 10 years and counting. Like, in a way, we've gotten away with something that a lot of people think should have had dire consequences.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're just like, that's true.

[B]

That's true. Maybe think. But. So what I'm saying is maybe things that we think are absolutes are just like serving suggestions. And that if we go, are we sure we can't do that? Absolutely sure. We cannot do that. Because what if we did? Like, it's just wild to see how many rules were never written down because there was an assumption that no one would ever dare to cross the unwritten rule.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it just worked for 250 years. So maybe what we can learn from this conversation is that where we see something that looks egregious and unjust going on instead of just condemning it or hoping that the old consensus or the old checks and balances or whatever will step in and. And curtail that behavior? What if we try to reckon with it as a force of physics that's changing and say, okay, so if this. This is so, how can I use it myself? Like, how can we use our powers for good?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Instead of evil? And what can that look like? And just remind ourselves that it's not necessarily physics, it's just the serving suggestion. Like, let's just check whether something is true or not before we give up

[A]

and dare to try believing in the things that you wish were true. Yeah.

[B]

And see what the world does.

[A]

See what comes back. Oh I wish. I wish there were a mycelial network of like minded people who would understand me and could like love and enjoy my company while we save the world. Just try. Try it. See what comes back. See what comes back to you.

[B]

See what comes back. Because that's how we stay wild. We hope you're enjoying Bewildered. If you're in the USA and want to be notified notified when a new episode comes out, text the word wild to 570-873-0144. We're also on Instagram. Our handle is Bewildered Podcast. You can follow us to get updates, hear funny snippets and outtakes, and chat with other fans of the show. Bewildered is produced by Scott Forster with support from the Brilliant team at mbi. And remember, if you're having fun fun, please rate and review and stay wild.