Trusting Your Spider Senses

Summary

Bewildered: Trusting Your Spider Senses

Hosts: Martha Beck & Rowan Mangan
Date: February 11, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this engaging and deeply honest episode, Martha Beck and Rowan Mangan explore the intricate dance between our innate instincts—our "spider senses"—and the overwhelming influence of cultural expectations. Through personal (and often hilarious) anecdotes about household chaos, painting mishaps, and awkward interactions with service professionals, they highlight how easy it is to override our intuitions in favor of being polite or socially correct. The conversation flows from comic domestic disasters to profound insights about energy perception, integrity, and self-trust, offering listeners both laughter and actionable wisdom.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Energy Sensitivity and Psychic Instincts

• [00:09] – [00:41]
  The episode opens with a conversation about the “energetic fields” between people—how we’re all sensitive to energy and could be considered “psychic” if we just allowed ourselves to listen.

  “If we relax into it, we are what most people would call psychic. And it’s just normal. We don’t let ourselves.” — Martha Beck (B), [00:24]
  The issue? Culture tells us not to trust these instincts, often shaming or belittling the “knowing” that doesn’t come with rational proof.

2. Overridden Instincts: The Culture Trap

• [01:05] – [06:45]
  Much of the episode’s humor centers on stories of personal chaos: Martha’s relentless rogue painting ("quadrant rehab, shaving the carpet," [05:48]) and Rowan’s need for routine ("Trinity Time", [09:22]). These domestic tales highlight how everyday pressures and societal correctness cause us to ignore what we know, even about something as simple as what makes us comfortable at home.

• Memorable Quote:

  “We push the essential self away in order to follow the rules of our socialization, because that is survival to a child, to a human. We need the acceptance of our group. And so we override the essential self with the social self a lot. A lot.” — Martha Beck, [38:29]

3. The House Call Story: Overwhelmed by Outsiders

• [16:11] – [32:00]
  Rowan recounts a particularly overwhelming morning: a parade of cleaners, building scientists, and movers crowding their home. On edge, she tries to manage everyone’s needs with extreme hospitality, all the while feeling internally freaked out for reasons she can't fully name.

  “I was freaked out. I was freaked the fuck out. I think it’s fair to say.” — Rowan Mangan (A), [21:45]

  Martha, returning to the chaos, describes an unsettling interaction with one of the movers:

  “He just stared at me in a very strange way. And he said, ‘What?’ And I said, ‘Can I get you a jacket? Are you cold?’ And he said, ‘I’m not even here.’” — Martha Beck, [24:20]

  The conversation pivots to recognizing “spider senses” that signal when something energetically feels wrong, even before it can be logically articulated.

4. When Social Self Overrides Instinct

• [32:03] – [41:36]
  Martha and Rowan analyze how, when energy feels off, their habitual responses differ. Rowan’s impulse is to override instinct for the sake of politeness; Martha’s is to pay attention, shaped by years of building self-trust.

  “I walked into your room…looked at the scenario and immediately just went, no, no. But it’s not an intellectual no. It’s not an emotional no. It’s physical, but it’s also just energetic.” — Martha Beck, [27:55]

  They reference Gavin de Becker’s "The Gift of Fear" to illustrate how societal pressures cause us to rationalize away instinctual alarms—a potentially dangerous habit.

5. Exercising and Authorizing Your Knowing

• [43:33] – [55:12] The hosts agree: Everyone has intuitive signals, but culture and trauma can teach us to ignore or deny them.

  “If you’re baffled by… negative feeling… there’s denial at work somewhere.” — Martha Beck, [58:04]

  Rowan asks how to “come to her senses” and learn to recognize what her body is telling her, especially in overwhelming moments. Martha suggests visualizing the intuitively distressed part of oneself as a child needing assurance:

  “The first thing you have to say is, I believe you. That is the huge block that keeps us in denial… Just say, ‘I believe you.’” — Martha Beck, [59:37]

  As they discuss these “integrity cleanses,” Martha encourages listeners to give themselves permission to know and feel what they know, even when it doesn’t conform to rational or cultural expectations.

6. On Belonging to Yourself

• [65:41] – [66:11] The episode culminates with an affirmation of self-belonging. Instead of always seeking to fit in, true integrity—and genuine safety—comes from believing yourself.

  “There’s a joy of finally belonging because you belong to yourself. And if you refuse to belong to yourself in order to belong in the group, you don’t belong.” — Martha Beck, [65:57]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Culture vs. Intuition:

  “If I followed the culture’s rules … the vibe is that the culture would say, ‘You’re crazy. You do not have the evidence to say anything about this. You’re an emotional female person who is a little bit cuckoo.’” — Rowan Mangan, [40:58]

• On Overriding Instincts:

  “You will be countercultural. You will sound like a nut half the time.” — Martha Beck, [55:13]

• On Psychic Ability as Human Nature:

  “It’s not even like, I have a special gift. You’re just human. And you start to pick things up and you can start to guide your life toward things that feel deeply good.” — Martha Beck, [64:00]

• On Linking Integrity with Oneness:

  “If we see ourselves as part of a greater whole and not as these little individual entities … that’s a way of becoming more in integrity with consciousness.” — Rowan Mangan, [53:25]

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Practical Takeaways

• Tune In: If you feel unsettled or agitated for “no reason,” ask yourself: “What do I almost know? What am I afraid to know?”
• Acknowledge the Child Within: Visualize the anxious or fearful part of you as a child. Affirm: “I believe you.”
• Recognize Denial: Know that internal bafflement and unexplained distress are likely signs that your intuition (“essential self”) is being overridden by your need to conform (“social self”).
• Err on the Side of Self-Trust: It’s safer to acknowledge your spider sense and act accordingly—without making external accusations—than to rationalize away warning signals.
• Belong to Yourself: True belonging starts within; cultural acceptance is fleeting, but self-integrity is lasting.

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Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|-----------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:09 | Energy sensitivity and cultural inhibition | | 05:48 | Martha’s painting saga—perfectionism and the urge to fix spaces | | 16:11 | Rowan’s story: Too many people in the house | | 24:44 | Martha’s unsettling interaction with a mover | | 27:26 | Martha’s energetic “no”—how intuition works in real time | | 29:29 | Gavin de Becker’s elevator analogy – trusting fear | | 38:29 | Martha explains the essential vs. social self | | 55:13 | Authorizing yourself to believe your own signals | | 65:56 | Final thoughts: Belonging to yourself, integrity |

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Conclusion

This episode is a playful yet profound masterclass in reconnecting with your intuition, even (especially) when the world tells you to ignore it. Martha and Rowan offer encouragement, tools, and personal testimony to inspire listeners to trust their spider senses—reclaiming inner authority, feeling safer, and living with true integrity.

Final Word:

“We believe ourselves. That’s the way I think that we’re all going to be able to stay wild.” — Rowan Mangan, [66:09]

Transcript

[A]

So, Marty, today on Bewildered, we're going to be talking about energy.

[B]

Not do I have enough energy to do a podcast today?

[A]

No, of course you do. It's about the, like, energetic fields between us and how much it's possible to ignore the signals that we're getting in the energetic exchange with other people.

[B]

Basically. I think that we're just all so sensitive to energy, especially other people's energy, that if we relax into it, we are what most people would call psychic. And it's just normal. We don't let ourselves.

[A]

We don't let ourselves because we bang into culture.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And culture says, you don't know it. You can't know it. You're crazy. Go lie down with a hot water bottle.

[B]

And I always do. Go lie down with a hot water bottle.

[A]

No, that part of the advice is.

[B]

Sound, but I believe myself.

[A]

There we go. So hope you enjoy today's episode. It's a bit of a doozy. And we will see you on the other side.

[B]

Hi, I'm Martha Beck.

[A]

And I'm Rowan Mangan. And this is another episode of Bewildered, the podcast for people trying to figure it out. What are you trying to figure out, Marty?

[B]

Oh, you know. You know.

[A]

Do I? Well, look, here's the deal. This is like a conceit of our podcast, is that I ask you something that I may already know the answer to and just so that the listeners can, like, see behind the curtain a minute. So sometimes I do know.

[B]

Well, you know, we haven't really talked about talking about it here, but I think it's time.

[A]

Oh, boy.

[B]

Paint.

[A]

We haven't talked about paint here?

[B]

No, I mean, not enough. Not. I mean, talk about my trying to figure out paint.

[A]

I mean, we talked about painting over mice.

[B]

We talked about painting over mice. There's been a lot of painting in our lives, but I have this little space.

[A]

You do?

[B]

I have a little bedroom that I love. And then there's like a special space. And then I have an art studio. I'm super, super over privileged. But this little space that we got into was painted. I believe I recall the walls were an almost black eggplant color, and the floor is kind of a bright, like, neon green. It wasn't. It wasn't. Psychologically okay.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It was rough for you.

[B]

Yeah. And so I just painted the whole thing. I'm gonna paint the whole thing white. And I did. And it looked like I was living in an anesthetized iceberg, you know, it wasn't pleasant.

[A]

No, it wasn't Working. Ah.

[B]

Do you know how many times I've been. I had to stop going to this hardware store by our house because I had been in so many times for different cans of paint. And it's only recently I realized, just buy a quart, don't buy a gallon. It's expensive. It's. If it's wrong. Yeah. So I kept. I have the. And you know what happened? I wandered into your part of the house, like paint daubed and sobbing and said, I can't. I need help.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you tried to do life coachy things to get. For me to work it out. Yeah, but I couldn't. I could not.

[A]

I will say that at the best of times, you are resistant to coaching.

[B]

True. Very true.

[A]

Ironically.

[B]

But then you just went over and looked at what I had going on in there because. Okay, so you got. Let me. Wait, let me paint you a word picture.

[A]

I know, I know.

[B]

But, like, the furniture is fully in there.

[A]

The furniture's fully in there. That is fully in there. That's an amazing word picture.

[B]

It's not like. And I'm paint. I have to paint the ceiling different colors on the wall. Cause there's like, weird, like, shingles, textured stuff, and then there's regular stuff. Then there are, like, ceiling beams. The floor's gotta be painted all the while. Like, the whole cube has to be painted just right. It's full of furniture. It's a cube of furniture. And I'm trying to paint it with the furniture there.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Hundreds of times.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Things are gonna go wrong.

[A]

Yeah, no, things already have.

[B]

I mean, am I exaggerating when I say things had gotten bad?

[A]

No. I mean, looking back, an intervention might have been the best course of action.

[B]

You kind of did that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, you were just. Marty, sit down. I will deal with this. And you started lugging all the paint cans away. And then you, as I had done.

[A]

So often I was helping to tripped.

[B]

And spilled a can of paint, and it burst open. And we spent the rest of that winter day running back and forth with buckets of water, trying to get off the rocks in front of my sitting room. So. Yeah. And then you went briefly. Briefly. You glimpsed the madness that I had.

[A]

Lived with for weeks and once again reiterated my position, which will never change, that this is why there are professionals who do these things.

[B]

No, no, no.

[A]

We would have saved so much money in big tinsel paint if we had just brought someone who knew what they were doing.

[B]

We could have probably hired, like, the top designer in New York City to Come out and, like, eat caviar with a spoon and just go, don't make it white. Right. But now I have the right colors. And I am slowly, slowly, slowly inching toward completion. Slowly.

[A]

So now she's trying to kind of like rehabilitate her image in our household by saying things like, yeah, I finished. Quadrant one's looking pretty good in quadrant one.

[B]

Divided in.

[A]

Sometime soon we'll be moving on to quadrant three. Now, that's a tricky quadrant.

[B]

Time was you, Youngin, when I could move all the furniture, including a grand piano, move it around, paint all the walls, made a mistake, painted it aquarium blue. That happened one time without a drop cloth, so I had to shave the carpet. That's a thing you do.

[A]

Oh, I've done that.

[B]

And then do it all again the same day. I was a maniac. And now it's like, I can't do the whole room. I'll do the quadrant where the couch must be. And then I. Then I, you know, like, I move a quarter of the furniture, I paint a quarter of the room, I wait a quarter of the appropriate time for it to dry, and then I put everything back and it's covered with paint. And I ruined the paint job. Anyway, I just thought I should come clean on, like, in public, because it's a real issue. It is an issue and you've intervened.

[A]

Yeah, well, you know, in my own way.

[B]

I wonder if they have 12 step rooms for people who just keep painting and painting and painting.

[A]

Yeah, the walls, they'll have sticky in the floor, sticky in the walls.

[B]

I just thought if anyone notices. But I think most of the paint is off my hands. If you're looking at the video.

[A]

Yesterday we went out for lunch with someone who's fairly well known in this area, and Marty just turned up. She's like, hi. And then she puts her hands on the table and they were covered in black paint. Like, it was terrifying.

[B]

Dark brown. But it didn't look right. It did not look right because it was floor paint. Most of that stuff in the wall paint I can get off.

[A]

That was not the problem. Oh, yeah, I see where your problem is. That was floor paint all over my hands at a restaurant.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Not wall paint, which would have looked completely normal.

[B]

I'm not even going to tell you about the open cuts on my hands and how much it hurt to paint with them without bandaging anything because I don't like to stop.

[A]

Yeah, that's the problem. Well, it's one of them.

[B]

I've gone to four different Hardware stores in the area. They all know me now. I'm like a person who gets thrown out of bars.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Marty, there is your. Your photo is behind the.

[B]

They see me coming with the paint chips, and they're like, lock everything up.

[A]

Oh, dear, oh, dear, oh, dear.

[B]

But I like what it's looking like now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

It's the exact color now of the inside of a red velvet cake.

[B]

Only a small part. I mean, what you've just said. I mean, imagine a whole cube colored deep blood red.

[A]

Yeah. I've been to that part of Amsterdam. It's called the red light district. It's amazing.

[B]

Not the red paint district. Well, yeah, so part of it's red, but not the whole thing. I used to have a bathroom in a house that I lived in that was all pink. Pink tile, pink sinks, pink bathtub, pink toilet, pink carpet. And it was like walking into an open mouth. Yes. Think of it.

[A]

Congratulations.

[B]

Yeah, it was bad. It was really, really bad. Part of what fuels. I mean, that's one of the traumas that fuels my addiction to painting rooms over and over.

[A]

There is so much to unpack here. We haven't even.

[B]

I know. We gotta go on. What are you trying to figure out?

[A]

So I feel a little bad. Cause what I'm trying to figure out is also, like, a deep slur on your character, much as your thing was.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And if I had known.

[B]

Fair play. Good. Go for it.

[A]

So people who are regular listeners to this show. God, it's so pathetic. Know that we have very strict routines in our days that we never, ever vary. And one of them is called Trinity Time.

[B]

Oh, gotta have Trinity Time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is.

[A]

We love Trinity Time.

[B]

I live for it all day long.

[A]

Yeah. We begin it as early as we can possibly get the kids to bed, which, like, is quite early if we're the kids.

[B]

Being Adam, is he still follows this routine that is very kid like, even though he's.

[A]

Yeah, he's. He's a man.

[B]

He's a man.

[A]

But he's your kid. Like. Yeah.

[B]

And I have to actually go in. We, like, watch TV together. It's awful. Because he needs cuddles, too.

[A]

Yeah. And we need cuddles. And so once they're dispatched to their bedrooms, we come down and snuggle and watch a show.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And you know, there've been times in our relationship where I don't. Like, you're interested in physical perfect ability. You're like one of those people. Those, like, biohackers or something. Like, you're always Making magic potions out of love. It's supplements and all these things. You read about things and. But this time, we. I come in to our living room where we're gonna do Trinity time. And you're there. Yeah. And you turn to me. Darkened room, right. Yes. Let me.

[B]

Let me paint a word picture.

[A]

You turn to me and you go. And I turn to face you, and your mouth is completely red. But not just red. Glowing all the way around. Yep, glowing red. Like, if you are thinking of Pennywise the Clown or something, you know, not too far off.

[B]

It's worse in some ways.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, his Pennywise is, like, painted, and.

[A]

He'S in the sewer. Like, you're in my living room on the couch, going, come here.

[B]

Come here, love.

[A]

And then. So she has this thing in her mouth.

[B]

Should I say why?

[A]

No, I don't think. Yeah, go on.

[B]

Then.

[A]

Just briefly.

[B]

It's because I'm worried about my gums receding.

[A]

That is such a great story. So anyway.

[B]

It'S supposed to help.

[A]

Will it work?

[B]

Is it helping me feel better? It is a placebo.

[A]

Well, it's quite a placebo.

[B]

I'm hoping it'll regrow the gums just a little, just because I believe it.

[A]

Will so religiously every night. But the thing is that it will not prevent her from making snarky comments about what's happening on the tv. Which is funny because you can't hear a fucking word she says. But you can tell from the tone of voice that she's being really cutting and that she's, like, quite pleased with the comments she's made. So she'll just be like. It's just like. And I'm like, I can't hear you. And then Kara's like, what? I'm like. She's got her thing. Kara's like, what? I'm like, wait, let me pause it. Gotta find that. And then, you know, it's all dark because Marty, like, requires complete darkness.

[B]

So.

[A]

That her red mouth, red, glowing gums will be even more.

[B]

Starting to sound like sort of an Eyes Wide Shut kind of movie thing. It is, yeah.

[A]

Complete darkness. Glowing red gum thing.

[B]

I should get some for my ears.

[A]

You used to wear one on your head.

[B]

Oh, right, right. Yeah. Because it's. I don't know what it is. Every time I go to play, I go to play my little games on my. On my phone, and they keep. People are like this red light thing. People have masks, and they're like these beautiful women doing, you know, like, showing how you can vacuum in this Red light mask that you put on your face, and it's just slits for eyes and one for your mouth. And the rest of it is just glowing red. And it's a white. This white. It looks like. It looks like science fiction horror at its most terrifying. And people are like, yes, it does things.

[A]

And by people you mean you. Well, so I have a question for you. Do you think it's possible for people to know too much about their self help guru? Like, because I'm wondering if I've gone too far.

[B]

Well, I have a very rich trove of eccentricities and frankly, insane predilections, so I think you can go a lot further. Like, I don't think they've even really scratched the surface.

[A]

You think this is the tame bits, huh?

[B]

Well, yeah.

[A]

All right, well, you know, wait till next episode. I'll bring the big guns if you want.

[B]

Okay. All right, you're on. Because the one. The only thing I have that is equal to my weirdness is my total lack of concern about being public about it.

[A]

That's fair. I'll give you that.

[B]

Once people sort of hate you online, it's like, oh, okay, that happened. It's gonna happen.

[A]

It's gonna happen. So should we do a podcast?

[B]

I guess we could.

[A]

Let's do one.

[B]

Can I paint something that will help the podcast? No. All right, let's just do it then.

[A]

Hi there. I'm Ro and I'll be your podcaster for today. Do you know how to tip your podcaster? It's actually pretty easy. You can rate our pod with lots of stars, all your stars. You can review it with your best superlatives. You can even subscribe or follow Bewildered. So you'll never miss an episode. Then, of course, if you're ready to go all in. Our paid online community is called Wilder A Sanctuary for the Bewildered. And I can honestly say it's one of the few true sanctuaries online. You can go to wildercommunity.com to check it out. Rate, review, subscribe, join, and you all.

[B]

Have a great day now. Hello, the lovely peoples. This is Marty Martha inviting you to a free masterclass that I have made called Five Paths to youo Purpose. Probably the most common question I get from people is, how do I find my purpose? Why don't I feel that I'm on purpose? Well, it turns out there are certain things you have to do to find your purpose. And I broke them down into five and I made a little masterclass about it. So if you'd like to see it, just go to marthaveck.compurpose and you will be able to watch it. Watch without any charge at all.

[A]

So today on the podcast, we are going to talk about something that happened to me in my life, because that's what I feel like talking about, as.

[B]

One so often does.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. In a way, this is like my endless coats of paint. You know, we all have.

[B]

We all have our thing.

[A]

We all have our thing. Yeah. So this morning, people came to our house. Marty. Yes.

[B]

This is actually not unrelated to the painting stuff.

[A]

We've had a lot of people coming in and out of our house since we moved into it a mere three months ago. Cause everything is broken.

[B]

Everything.

[A]

Nothing works. And everything is broken. And also nothing works. Well, there are people other than us who work, and they are the people that we ask to come in when I can keep the power tools away from you.

[B]

And you. And you often say in your grandmother's Australian accent, we'll have to get a man in.

[A]

Oh, my God, I love that you think she spoke like that? She spoke like this. Gotta get a man in. We'll get a man in. She was a working class designer.

[B]

She'd be like an American. Get a man in. Man in. Gotta get a man in.

[A]

Man in. Don't know how to speak Australian anymore.

[B]

I know, it's crazy. And also, I think you are saying that, like, I'm not sure that's how a lesbian is supposed to say it. Gotta get a man in.

[A]

Gotta get a man in.

[B]

Anyway, we've had a lot of men in. Not that way. All right, Sally.

[A]

Some people came to our house they wanted and in. Okay, I'll own the fact that there were a lot of them. And I could have foreseen that there was going to be a lot of different people at one time. But we are getting into a time of year where it's quite hard to get things scheduled. And scheduling is not my forte. And the person who usually helps me with scheduling is in the middle of a move across the country. And I can't bring myself to bother her with my problems right now. So I managed to schedule too many people to come into our house this morning. Okay, that happens. One of the people, God love her, was helping us clean our house. It was foreseeable. She comes weekly. Next thing was people who call themselves, Sorry if it's you listening building scientists. I wanted to see where the ladybugs and the wasps were getting in, but they came with amazing tools and were explaining to me what rim joists are and such things.

[B]

Oh, did they figure out where the ladybugs and the wasps are getting in?

[A]

No, but they knew what a rim joist was, and they. Yeah, no, there's many places, it turns out, where they're getting in.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

But then there were some guys that came in to help me move furniture because I have very heavy sofa bed furniture that needed to be in a different part of the house. And I could go on and on, but it's not.

[B]

People are riveted.

[A]

I know.

[B]

They're like, what part of the house?

[A]

What part of the house? And what.

[B]

How heavy were they?

[A]

What was a sofa bed doing in the wrong part of the house anyway? Couldn't I have foreseen this? No, as it turns out, we couldn't. So I'm like, can you help me move things around because of the brawn? Get a man in. And they did that. Fine. But when I had booked them, they were like, do you have any furniture you want put together? I think because they were, like, expecting to move people from one house to another, as people are most often do, not just, can you move a sofa? And they were like, do you want to assemble anything? And I'm like, you know, I do, so. And that was my first mistake. They were good at the lifting. So I was doing one of those where I'm like, sorry, Debbie, that everyone's in your way. Sold rim joist. Oh, wow, that's so impressive. You really understand a lot of things, and I'm so proud of you. And why are you turning my plant upside down on my carpet there? And. And it was just, you know, and, like, bopping around from one to the other. And each one wanted to explain what they were doing, like, with more technical detail than I really required.

[B]

Are you sure? Are you sure our listeners don't need to hear the details of the rim joists and whatnot? Like, really? It's so fascinating.

[A]

I don't even know if it was a rim joist. Now you're.

[B]

You're perilously close to another naughty phrase.

[A]

I know, I know.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know if they have that in Australia as well, but.

[A]

Oh, yeah, we know a thing or two.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I would expect Australians to know this.

[A]

But it turns out there are many kinds of joist.

[B]

Really? Really? Did you have a joist joust? Like, different joists fighting each other or something? Sorry. I'm sorry. I don't sleep well at night. Actually, I do.

[A]

All right.

[B]

I'm just. Okay, back to it.

[A]

Back to those joists.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know what? It's like when you're bopping between different people who are in your house, it's just.

[B]

It's stressful. Very unnerving.

[A]

But when I. Eventually everyone left, I found myself still quite over raw.

[B]

You were in a state.

[A]

I was freaked out. I was freaked the fuck out. I think it's. It's fair to say.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was just such a weird thing. And Marty had been going to the doctor and was out. And I'm like, get home. Get home. Get home.

[B]

You did.

[A]

Marty, I need you to. She's like, calling me. Does anyone need anything? Home, Marty, get home now.

[B]

She was like, assembling furniture is not their North Star. I was like, okay, I think this is an emergency.

[A]

It was. It was. Yeah. It was not their North Star.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I just have to say one thing, which was that the guy. After they tipped my plant over on the beautiful rug, he and I were scooping the potting mix back into the pot of the plant that had been, you know, relocated dramatically. And he said to me, I've done a lot of landscaping. And I was like, huh, yeah, well, I guess that's sort of what we're doing here. And he's like, no, I mean it. I've done a lot of landscaping. And, like.

[B]

And it was at this.

[A]

But, like, that was weird, right? It was weird because that was just.

[B]

I wasn't there, but I believe you.

[A]

That was literally scooping dirt off a carpet and putting it in a pot. That's not, like, strictly landscape.

[B]

I don't know. I haven't been to horticulture school. Maybe that's like, Horticulture 101 is just.

[A]

Dirt scooping, dirt scooping with two hands. Anyway, they went away eventually because I told them not to do any of the other things. And then the building scientists went away. And although they do have a TV show about building science that they'd like us to watch.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

And I remain freaked out. And finally, Marty got home from the doctor. I was pacing about, eating chocolate, running a Epsom salt bath. That's why we were late, Drew.

[B]

No lie.

[A]

And so just. And then Marty's like, oh, I know what it is. And I'm like, what? Because I was just so stressed, and they'd gone. The source of my stress was gone. But then you had it all figured out. And I love it when you've got it all figured out. Cause I am trying to figure it.

[B]

Out frequently happens as well.

[A]

Do you wanna pick up the story at this point, Martha Beck, from your session?

[B]

I knew there was Something weird, because when I got home, there was a man standing in our driveway in the freezing cold. It was like, 28 degrees, and he was very lightly dressed. And I got out of the car, and I said, oh, my gosh, you must be so cold. Can I get you a jacket or something? And he just stared at me in a very strange way. And he said, what? And I said, can I get you a jacket? Are you cold? And he said, I'm not even here. And I was like, okay, they were ghosts.

[A]

This makes so sense.

[B]

They were dead the whole time.

[A]

Well, that makes it a lot more understandable how much trouble they were putting together.

[B]

No, it was weird, though. Like, immediately, the second he sort of. Huh. I went from friendly, happy, give him a jacket, to be very quiet, don't say anything, listen to him without responding, and get out. Like, it was very, very clear. And I have no reason to think anything negative about him. But he kind of went on talking for a little while about, if it's cold, I'm just in the desert. If it's hot, I'm. I'm just not there. I don't feel weather. I was like, okay, I'm gonna go inside now. But that wasn't even the one that.

[A]

No, he wasn't. No, he was. The one you spoke to is the one who'd done a lot of landscaping.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

The other one didn't talk. And he was the scarier one. But none of this had surfaced into my consciousness while they were there. Cause I was so. I think, like, part of it is that I'm so focused on, am I doing this right? Do you need coffee? Is everyone okay? Is it okay if I go down here? And I've gotten worse at this since moving to another country, because I never know if there's, like, hidden, like, cultural rules about these sorts of things.

[B]

Cultural is the point. Because you were so fixated on culture, and after many, many years of coaching hundreds, thousands of people, I realize that when I pick up something like that really quickly, then I always say, no, no, no. There's nothing wrong with that person. And then I get to know them, and I'm like, oh, yeah, there is actually something really wrong. So it's like, I've been given the opportunity to practice sort of reading someone's energy very quickly. I don't want to prejudge anyone, and I could be totally wrong, but I pay attention to my instincts. And when I walked in, actually, it was when I saw the place where they'd been assembling the furniture and it was just. It's kind of like my place. But I'd taken three months to do it and they'd done it in one afternoon. There was like, the plastic for the hardware had been ripped open weirdly, and there was hardware and plastic, like, scattered all over your room. And I looked at the scenario and immediately just went, no, no. But it's not an intellectual. No. It's not an emotional no. It's physical, but it's also just energetic. It was just like, that is not okay. Somebody's not okay. Whoever did that is not okay. Again, I would never accuse someone in any way, but I trust myself.

[A]

So what we're talking about, just to kind of contextualize this strange story for a minute, is when you get that bad feeling and that sort of intuitive or instinctive or energetic, like, vibe of off.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which I, like, was clearly getting, but was not a la. I was not even.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I was so stuck in my own shit or whatever it was.

[B]

Well. And trying to please. Trying to be appropriate and polite and make everyone at ease when you're not at ease. And it reminds me, I may have mentioned on the podcast before, but I think it bears repeating. Gavin de Becker, who's a lovely human, I've talked to him a couple times and he wrote a book decades ago that I think is a classic. It's called the Gift of Fear, because he's an expert in predicting when people are going to get violent or weird or whatever. And he works for famous people to assess threats and whatnot. And he talks about how we have these very, very highly sharpened instincts, you know, like 300 million years of evolution has given us a lot of ability to perceive potential threat. It's not that it's an inevitable threat. We usually don't notice it until it's an inevitable threat. But Gavin talks about is, imagine you're alone, you working late in a skyscraper, and it's 11 o' clock at night and nobody else is there. Lights are off pretty much. And you go to the elevator, and when the elevator opens, there's a man in the elevator, and you get a feeling of fear. What animal that sensed fear from another animal would then voluntarily lock itself in a soundproof steel box with an animal that scares it. Right. And it is only because of social anxiety that we walk into that elevator. You can just get the next one. No harm, no foul.

[A]

That is exactly what I did. That was the exact thing I was doing, was getting in the elevator today.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. You were overriding your instincts.

[A]

Yeah. And it Wasn't until you actually verbalized, I think this is what's happening that I was even able to kind of contemplate. And I was trying to figure out why I felt so freaked out because I hadn't even necessarily located it with them. I was still trying to make the story work, that it was just a stressful morning with different people. But it wasn't because the building scientists, God love them. Left.

[B]

No, I love building science. I just. Funny think it's funny that people are building scientists.

[A]

They're building scientists.

[B]

Yes. Or they're buildings who are scientists. Yeah, right.

[A]

Oh, like buildings in little lab coats.

[B]

Yeah, they were fine.

[A]

They were fine.

[B]

I liked those guys.

[A]

Yeah, they were fine.

[B]

As Adam says, I like that little guy.

[A]

I like that little guy.

[B]

I like that little guy. But I was predisposed to know what was happening to you because of that little interaction by the car, because I'm, you know, I'm highly autistic, and I hide behind clumps of moss until lovely people go away, like. But I. But because I mask it. I will chat with anyone quite competently in my dotage.

[A]

I love that you will describe a chat as competent. Like, that is the most autistic thing to say.

[B]

We talked last time about small talk and how the young kids don't know how to do it and how you and I want to just run screaming from the room when someone starts it. But I can have a nice chat with someone competently. Give them cocoa, coffee, whatever they want. And so I said, are you cold? Do you want a jacket? And the moment he started talking, I thought, oh, I should respond this. And something said, don't say a word. Do not engage. Just say thank you, and walk away. Like any engagement is too much.

[A]

So do you think that most people who would be listening to this podcast, because I don't care about the rest of them, would be closer to your response, which was very quickly clocking what your reaction needed to be to keep yourself feeling safe and mine, which was to completely quash any awareness of what was going on intuitively. Where do you think most people lie? Cause I have no idea.

[B]

I don't know either, really, because I don't know what the sample of our listeners is like, demographically speaking.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Well, I'm sorry. You ask me things about, like, sociology. I'm gonna get sociological. But I would say they're probably in the middle. I'd say that probably most people are sort of listening to their instincts but rapidly overriding them. Like, you didn't Even articulate to yourself. I feel dangerous with that man, and especially that man. That's danger. You didn't think that you pushed over it before you let yourself know.

[A]

Yeah, 100%.

[B]

And I heard him say three things in the driveway, and I'm like, that's trouble. Walk away. But I'm very uninterested in pleasing people generally.

[A]

Now.

[B]

I didn't used to be, but I've been displeasing for so long now that I'm getting used to it. So I think people are somewhere in the middle, but I think almost everyone overrides their instincts in certain ways. And especially, for example, with someone, you know, if you get an itch somewhere that goes, this is not okay. This is not safe. And it's someone, you know, even someone you love, that's when we really start to play the denial tapes really loudly.

[A]

So what I was thinking about was, what do you think? Like, could you walk us through, like, slow motion? What happened in your body when you spoke to him, like, outside the door or in the driveway or whatever?

[B]

And it has to do. There's something called neuroception, which is like your entire nervous system perceiving things, rather than just like, even the five senses, because it sort of slides over into metaphysics. It slides over, and I think it definitely goes all the way to just being able to sense energy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, I mean, I think most people have had the feeling of just eeriness, something's wrong, something's off, and then they find out something is. There's tons. Read Rupert Sheldrake, read the tons of evidence that say we can sense energy. But. So I'm very alert to that. So I got out of the car and I met the guy's eyes, and there was just this blankness there. And it didn't look like someone daydreaming or anything. There was something unsettling. And I immediately felt my stomach tighten just a little bit, and my legs tightened a little bit, like, run. And I'm probably grossly exaggerating this, but I would rather err on the side of caution without insulting anybody.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know, if I got to know him and he was wonderful, that'd be great. I was. But, yeah, as I said, so much practice that I don't really doubt myself anymore. So there's that. And then when I almost spoke back to him, it was literally like somebody had put a hand on my mouth gently and pushed my head back.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And my throat closed. And it was, like, not a word. And that was almost out loud in my head. Not a word. Not a word.

[A]

And of course, like, for the purposes of this conversation, it's not about who these guys were, you know, it was. It's not even about that. It's just about like. Like learning to track our own interior reactions. And it's. It's fascinating to me to see that this is like this huge blind spot for me when it comes to, like, I find it very stressful having people. Anyone who doesn't live in my house, in my house. That's always stressful. Yeah, for me. And so there were. It's like, usually I'm very sensitive to energy, as you know, and like, can pick up lots of little things. But there's clearly this one situation, which is that sense of, here is my home, here are people coming in, and in this scenario you have to be hostess. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I'm just running around offering them coffee like there's no tomorrow.

[B]

Well, that was the other weird thing. So there are two coffee cups in your room.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And one was empty, but one was like, really full.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you told me. Yeah, I asked him if they wanted coffee. And you asked him if they wanted coffee. And you said, how many sugars? And he said, six.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now that. That's neither here nor there. But he hadn't touched it either.

[A]

He hadn't touched it. Like, he hadn't even had a sip.

[B]

I have to say, and here's something I want to say to our listeners. Don't go accusing people, you know, with no evidence. But if you feel disturbed, go and sit down. And like, Ro was sitting there trying to figure out why she was so disoriented. And like, she couldn't get stressed. She wasn't relaxed, she couldn't relax. And if you're feeling that way, it may be because you know something that your social self feels you're not supposed to know, or you think something your social self thinks you're not supposed to think.

[A]

That's so good. Could you just do a really quick, like, social self definition. This is your term for people who.

[B]

Don'T know it already. My very first self help book. Even before that, when I was a professor, I would talk to people about their essential self, which is the essence. That's one meaning of the word essential. But there's also. It's your essence, and it is that which you need. So it's essential for your happiness. And that's like a genotype that's born into you. It would be the same no matter where in the world you were born, you'd have the same essential self. And then there's the social self, which is constructed of an interplay between your ability to be social, which is so high in humans, and whatever the socializing forces around you may be. And that will be completely different if you're raised in, like, Buenos Aires versus Iceland or, you know, it's all. Or even in a different family. So the social self is very malleable, and the essential self is not. But we push the essential self away in order to follow the rules of our socialization, because that is survival to a child, to a human. We need the acceptance of our group. And so we override the essential self with the social self a lot. A lot.

[A]

Which is completely fine if you have, like, fluid access between them.

[B]

Right. If you know you're doing it, you.

[A]

Still need your social self. It's when the social self is not allowing the messages of the essential self to reach the conscious mind, which was my thing this morning, right. That. That's when it's. It can be a problem.

[B]

And I would say it is technically a lack of integrity. Because integrity means the two things are working in alignment. Right. And duplicity means they're at odds with each other. It's not a moral statement. But when I go on, my integrity cleanses, which I do for years at a time where I am always examining, am I telling myself two stories or one, what's the truth? What's the truth? So if anybody's feeling that way, it may be something you felt for a long time, like there's something just off about a work situation, relationship, whatever. Or it may just be this bolt like you had today. Go sit down and think. If I were to know, what am I afraid to know? What do I know that I'm afraid to know? What do I feel that I'm afraid to feel? What is it that I understand that I'm not letting myself admit? And another thing I ask people is, what do I almost know? Do I almost feel.

[A]

Yeah, that's a good one.

[B]

And then let yourself be profoundly, like, antisocial, like, say the things you're not supposed to say, because it's always behind those things that the essential self is, like jumping up and down going, danger, danger. I'm trying to tell you something, and.

[A]

It may not be danger, danger, you know, code blue, get out of there kind of thing. It might be, but it might not be. It might just be like that. You need to navigate a certain way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So what I love about this, and it's so Perfect. Because the social self is in many ways like the avatar that we use to interact with the culture.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

And so again, nothing wrong with culture. It's inevitable. It happens. But it's just. We just need to know when we're doing it and when we're not. Right. And so what I think is so interesting here is that where my social self had no freaking idea like that, it. Because it was so focused on doing things right by the cultural rules in this particular circumstance.

[B]

But.

[A]

And so if I followed the culture's rules, I think in this situation. And it might be changing a bit. But my, My vibe is that the culture would say, you're crazy. You do not have the evidence to say anything about this. You're an emotional female person who is a little bit cuckoo.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's like. I think that's the only space the culture holds. Although I do think gradually mainstream culture is starting to open a bit with this stuff. But that's the kind of conventional cultural wisdom, don't you think?

[B]

Yes. And I mean, it stands to reason in a way, because there were times when somebody could say, she's a woman, I can feel it. And they burn someone. Right.

[A]

Yeah. And that's why. Sorry, I just need to put in that none of this is about taking action interpersonally. This is. We're only talking about how you're interacting with yourself. And you can never know anyone else's truth at all. And don't presume to. And don't say we said you could, because we didn't. We said you couldn't.

[B]

But it's almost equally dangerous. In fact, I'd say it is more dangerous to not know what you know and not feel what you feel, because on most days it's going to be fine, but when it's not fine, you're going to just walk into that elevator.

[A]

Right, Right. And it's about making decisions about your actions and not trying to make decisions about other people.

[B]

Exactly. And certainly not about accusing anybody. Sorry, I just, I've got. I'll stop belaboring that. But it's, it's a. It's a tricky to walk because on one hand we want to be rational and evidence based because if what did Oliver Wendell Holmes said, It's better for 100 guilty men to go free than for one innocent man to be wrongly imprisoned. So we don't want to accuse anyone. On the other hand, if you pay no attention to your instincts because there's no rational proof that your fear is valid, you're going to put yourself in harm's way when your whole body and your instinctive and your energetic self, it has been designed to get you free from that. And that's where there's another side to it, which it's better if you're the one who might be in danger. It's better that a hundred little kids be kept away from a window, even if they wouldn't fall out of it, than for one little kid to fall out. Like, it's better to keep to err on the side of safety a hundred times than it is to just blunder into outright danger even once.

[A]

Be cautious, be careful. That's the message.

[B]

Yeah. And the thing is, if you let yourself. This is like a muscle that you can build.

[A]

And that's what I'm interested in. Although it's so interesting because to me it almost feels like the metaphor is opposite. Like, I don't want to bulk up. I want to, like, loosen. I want to, like, get.

[B]

Yeah, you become more fluid and more. I mean, that's the wild side, right? Like you watch an animal going through the woods. It's always present. It's always aw. And I've had a chance to test it so many times. There are people I've had as clients who are so shut down that they can't even talk. And they'll sit there and they'll say like three things to me. And I've learned that I can sort of drop into my body, relax, and sort of let myself feel what I'm really feeling. And I'll like. I remember saying to one woman, second time we'd ever talked, and she just chit chatted the first time. The second time she just went silent. And I said, okay, here's what I'm getting. There's a shell of fear around you that doesn't want to talk to me. Beneath that is a little layer of anger that is mostly directed at people who've hurt you in the past. And underneath that is an ocean of sorrow. Tell me where I'm wrong. And it's not often that I lay it out that bluntly, but no one's ever told me I'm wrong. We can do this stuff. We can interpersonally sense things at a far more sensitive level than the culture gives us room for, because it's looking for material evidence. You're just not going to get that in time.

[A]

I know someone who is like a deeply intuitive reader of energy and is also deeply, like, in love with science and the scientific method and has quite a limited, you know, like, not the most open mind in that way.

[B]

Is it a building scientist?

[A]

Yes, it is. And it's so funny because he always talks about body language, because that's like his. The way that he can, like, interface between what he knows and what he finds culturally acceptable to say. And he'll be talking about body language. I'm like, that person isn't moving. That's not body language. That's energy. But it is just. It's just really fascinating. He can't not. He can't let himself know that he knows how to do that because he doesn't understand it from a.

[B]

We all do it.

[A]

Yeah. So talk to me more about how you see where the culture is and the culture's view of the capacity to read energy. Well, it's.

[B]

I think there's still. And again, it's so difficult to say because there's so many subcultures in our culture right now. And you're right. There's a huge part of the culture that has accepted that, and it's just like, snore. Old news. But I would say the. The act, certainly the academy and science and the people who purport to give us rules for conduct, it's still about. It's what you know, intellectually, it's about facts. Do you have evidence for this? And I mean, evidence. You can show me with your. I need to see it with my eyes and touch it with my hands. If you just had a funny feeling. No, that's not enough.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I think that's where the mainstream culture goes. And then I think, frankly, there is kind of a divide between people who feel more vulnerable and people who feel less vulnerable. Women feeling more vulnerable than men in general. There's that whole women's intuition thing, because if you walk around nervous, if you're.

[A]

A prey animal, you're gonna have big ears.

[B]

If you're being preyed upon. Yeah. You're gonna have big ears and a lot of good peripheral vision.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And who knows, Maybe it's even hormonally different. I don't. I don't even know, but I'm sure.

[A]

Like, that follows all the usual things, like, you could say, you know, gender, or you could say, the more power you have, the less sensitive you have to be.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So then anyone in society who comes down as less powerful will be closer to more in touch with those faculties, Right?

[B]

Yeah. And the scary thing is, though, that the lower you are in the power structure, the less you will be believed. Like, if you are legit afraid because you're in a very vulnerable position because you're low on the. On the pecking order. People won't listen to you. And it's one of the most terrifying things about the way our culture is structured. People at the lower echelons are in genuine trouble, and no one believes them.

[A]

That's so interesting because it's also, you know, you were saying, read Rupert Sheldrake. And it's like, it's so interesting that of all the people who have kind of been pushing science. Sorry, but it's. It's the, you know, boomer white man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, who's like, at the pinnacle of. Of kind of demographically powerful humans right now.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Who is the only voice that's given legitimacy. Like, he. He's the one that everyone cites. He's brilliant, you know, but it's that there are others.

[B]

There's. Dean Radin, there's. And, you know, Lisa Miller at Columbia is like, marching out for the. For the future.

[A]

And what I'm saying is that there's a lot of people studying it. And Rupert Sheldrake is the one that the culture's listening to primarily. Like, he's the big name.

[B]

Yeah, he took a lot of. He took a lot of thumps. He's a. He's somebody who refused to give up his intuition. I saw him. And Ian McGilchrist is another neurologist philosopher that the culture is also starting to listen to. And I saw them interviewed together, and they were talking about how you have to be very biased to believe that we don't have these energetic facilities, to know when someone's looking at us or sense things far away. And to buy the scientific story right now, you have to pretend that all these tests, all these pieces of research did not happen. And then Ian McGilchrist said, and they're both like Oxford types. He said, oh, and one would also have to ignore one's own experiences. And I was like, boy howdy. An old white man is finally saying he's had these experiences. Not just he's done the research. Like, there's no. It's so obsessively objective science, but it's a subjective experience. And I think a lot of old white guys are having it. A lot of everybody's having it. But you're right. Someone had to break the mold and sort of stand there from inside the system and say, no, I refuse to stop believing this for it to even start to crack open.

[A]

And I think. And the point I was making was also that, yeah, that's what's gonna get the ear of the culture. But also that if you're in a fairly comfy position, you've got some capital you can afford to burn in order.

[B]

It's sort of an interesting thing. It's kind of like being an ally, which we try to be allied for anybody who's less privileged. It's just. I feel it's just a moral obligation. And I've never thought about being an ally to people whose energy reading is being belittled. You know, if somebody comes and says, look, I have this feeling. And by the way, it's not all bad because when you start getting sensitive to it, you're more apathetic. You can be there for people who are sad. It's not just running away from danger. You can also. You can love much more deeply and love people you don't know much more deeply because you can.

[A]

Well, you can know them much more deeply.

[B]

Exactly. And it's the same thing. I'm sitting across from this woman at the doctor's office. We're both waiting for the doctor. There's the receptionist. I can feel the receptionist being. Something wasn't going right and she was very, very worried, but she was trying to be very calm about it. And so I calmed myself down a lot and made a point of, like, when I. Her computer wasn't working. It took forever and she was so like. And I just. I looked away, I relaxed. I hummed a little tune. Like I was giving her signals that she could relax. That to me, is a way of loving.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And as we're talking, I mean, we're just talking about this. It just happened. I don't always do that, but I think I want to do it more. Not just to avoid danger, but also to love and to champion the oppressed and everything.

[A]

And it's a form of integrity as well, like you were saying earlier. Because if we see ourselves as part of a greater whole and not as these little individual entities, then it's sort of like. I've never thought about your definition of integrity and this kind of spiritual lens of oneness. You know, like the separate self, the whole ego. And the idea of the separate self is actually a form of multiplicity. So it's only when we're just like the receptionist and I together are going to bring down our net stress level by me getting super calm. That's a way of becoming more in integrity with consciousness.

[B]

That's really true. I've never articulated that, but it's really, really true. And I do think that if we start to Acknowledge when something is wrong. Like today. And it's so interesting as well, because people come and go from our house, as you said, all the time. They know where the key is. But I've never been afraid of one of them coming back. Only today I looked at the stuff thrown all over your room, and I just. I looked at those coffee cups and I just said, no, like, with my mind, but with something else as well, that whatever it is that can tell people are sad, it was just like, no, you will not come here again, full stop.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that. So it keeps you safer, but you're also empathizing with the other person. I have no hatred toward those guys.

[A]

No.

[B]

It's just you're not coming to my house again. And I think if we went around that way, we would start to get better and better and better at it.

[A]

Yes. But it's the thing about authorize your knowing that we did before is that's what you did. You said you went in there and you saw the coffee cup and you saw the way the crap was left and everything, and you went, no, that was the bit that I couldn't do, is that I had the knowing, but I couldn't authorize it. And that's. That's what your. That's that channel that you have really open from experience and from trusting it and from having it validated and from.

[B]

Like, not trusting it a lot and going. Getting in harm's way and experiencing the consequences. It's like crashing your car. You kind of go, okay, that. That indicator. I'm gonna pay attention to that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And you will be countercultural.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You will sound like a nut half the time.

[A]

So I want to talk a little bit more about how we come to our senses.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

On the energy stuff. Okay. Right after this. So, Marty, I just don't feel like we've talked about me enough in this.

[B]

Episode, but we have years ahead of us.

[A]

So I was just, like, thinking for myself and for any of the listeners who might relate to where I was today with the. I was getting the warnings, but I wasn't letting them through.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So my question to you is, when it comes to, like, how do I come to my senses? And what I mean is, how do I know what I don't know?

[B]

Right. But, you know, at some level. But you not letting yourself know that, you know.

[A]

Yeah. Like, I'm in this situation where my body's giving me these signals, but I genuinely, even sitting there with it and asking myself, what is this? I couldn't get there until you came in. So what can I work on so that that will be like a clearer path for me to tread?

[B]

Recognize that's a form of denial. It ain't just a river in Egypt. People talk about denial being. I'm ignoring, you know, my partner's drug addiction or whatever. But it's also. I feel something. No, I don't. I feel agitated and I don't know why, but actually, if you sit down and explore the feeling, you end up knowing why. If somebody says to you, that man made me nervous too, There's a sense of coming back into integrity, which is relaxation.

[A]

So would you suggest that if I'd been. If you hadn't been there.

[B]

Get home, buddy. Get home now. Get home. I'm having a feeling. I'm having a feeling and I need you. Quite urgent.

[A]

Yeah, I was. I had a feeling.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you weren't there.

[B]

I was not.

[A]

So if you had continued to rudely not be there to tend to my feeling, like I was sitting there trying to know it had not popped into my head until you said it. So I will say the minute you said it, I was like, oh, that's it. And my whole body settled and the. And the calm and all of that. It still took a while to get.

[B]

The icky energy, the adrenaline and the cortisol. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But.

[A]

But I just. I mean, I know that there was only, like, a finite number of things it could have been, and it wasn't the building scientists and it wasn't Debbie with the vacuum cleaner, but I just.

[B]

Didn'T think that's what denial is, and that's why it's so baffling. You don't. Yeah. No, it isn't. No, my denial isn't.

[A]

Absolutely not. Yeah. Mine's. Mine's special.

[B]

There's nothing behind my denial. Yeah. You do not see it. You do not see it. So if you're baffled by. Especially by negative feeling. I had the other day. I had a whole day when I was baffled and my emotions were all over place, the. The place. And I just wasn't acknowledging something really deep inside me that was, you know, essentially a spiritual sensation. Talk more about that later. But this is like, let's talk about instincts and energy. If you don't know why you're so upset, there's denial at work somewhere.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I often talk about, you know, think about the body as an animal. How would you treat an animal? Would you work it to death? Would you give it no sleep? Think about that. In this case, the animal self is up. But you have to be able to listen to it at a sophisticated level. So to me, it's like. It's like the part of you that's upset is a child, a young child. And it helps me to actually, like, project an image of myself forward. And it's a little child, and she's very frightened or she's very angry or whatever, and I don't know why. And so I ask her, why are you so upset? And then the first thing you have to say is, I believe you. That is, the huge block that keeps us in denial is not that we will be attacked or anything. It's that we won't be believed and that our reality will be completely, like, eliminated by other people's way of thinking. I remember once talking to somebody whose father was very sociopathic. And she went to doctor once, a lot of doctor visits. And then she came home and he said, where were you? And she said, I was at the doctor. And he said, no, you weren't. You've been here all day. You've been sitting right here. She said, no, I went to the doctor. He said, no, you didn't. You've been here all day. And she was so baffled that she went back to the doctor and got a note saying she'd been there. And she came home and she said. She showed it to her father. He took it, he tore it up. He said, no, you were here. Like, that is so freaky deaky, right? That's, like, so extreme. And yet, because it was her father and because he was so convincing, she actually left her own reality because she wasn't sure. So when people.

[A]

Well, that's what. But then that's the purpose of gaslighting is to make people doubt what they know.

[B]

And those who would do evil, not out of, like, despair, but out of premeditation, count on other people to be terrified that they will not be believed. If you can be the person who says to your nervous system, tell me what you are afraid of, and I will believe you. Will I go to the police about somebody who will never come into my life again? No. But I will not doubt you. And you have to build that for yourself. And then that child becomes incredibly psychic. I'll just say it out loud.

[A]

I realized something really that, to me, is interesting about myself.

[B]

We haven't talked enough about that.

[A]

That's what I was gonna say is that when you said, the one who is afraid is a little child. What I realized is the. Is that for me, the. The youngest part was the. The one that Was freaked out about having people in my house. And there was a lot of childhood stuff around shame and fear about having people at home and what will they.

[B]

And make those people happy. We have to make those. Any guest. Anybody who comes in.

[A]

That is what caused me to completely leave. My integrity was actually. It's less about the fearful part. It was actually the part that was.

[B]

Stepping in social belonging. Social. You know, manipulation is a very dark word for it, but you really are trying to make people feel. Feel okay about you. And that by its nature is a manipulation of their emotional state. And we're there almost all the time. Even if you're a little kid and you think, I have to make these people like me. Trying to make someone like you is a form of trying to control the situation so you don't feel out of control. And so you were trying desperately to make these guys like you.

[A]

It wasn't that.

[B]

Wasn't that.

[A]

No. It was about behaving properly and not being not. I mean, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter about the ins and outs of it, but it was about. It wasn't about how they were going to feel. It was about, are people going to see my house, my private space, as being okay and normal? Like, is this going to be normal? Is this going to be above board? Is this going to be like, past muster? Does this past muster as normal? You know, and we all have our.

[B]

Own, like, little trauma profile. Some of us with profound trauma, some of us with just like, we were hushed a lot and we hurt our feelings. Those are all like micro traumas, the whole thing. And it conditions each of us in a specific pattern where we will go into denial and allow things to happen that our instincts are saying no.

[A]

But it's so interesting to note that where. Where those exist, they can push you into the culture. And they're actually quite likely to because of what you started out by saying, which is that where these social primates who. Who ultimately will rely on acceptance by the group.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For it feels existential even when in our, like, daily life, it may not be.

[B]

Or it may be like. I mean, there's really good data to show that people, when people are too isolated, they just die of failure to thrive. Like, we have to like. And here's the thing. If you can believe that child inside you and then start picking up what everyone picks up, even though we don't acknowledge it, As I said, when you believe the child, you become psychic. And it's not even like, I have a special gift. You're just human. And you start to pick things up and you can start to guide your life toward things that feel deeply good. Like, I mean, we're talking about this right before we started recording. And I said it was very much that sensitivity that made me think I have to keep after I met you. I must never lose track of this person. You know, like, the fear was, she cannot be allowed to just go back to Australia and never speak to me again.

[A]

I will lock her in my basement.

[B]

Yes. And I will.

[A]

I will force her to do a podcast.

[B]

Yes. And I will dress her in pinafores and feed her porridge and call her George. That's what we do at home. No, I just made that up.

[A]

That was what I was trying to, like, not let people see was the pinafore and the George.

[B]

Sorry. And by the way, people coming to our house and thinking it's normal. If they came into my house before you intervened with your intervention in the intervention room, they would have not thought I was very functional.

[A]

Fair. Well, the whole point is, when you come to your senses, you're not going to be going along with the consensus anymore. And that's just what we have to make peace with if we're going to be bewildered.

[B]

And there's something that happens when you sit with the child inside you and say, I will believe everything you tell me and I will not laugh at you and I will not slap you down. There's a joy of finally belonging because you belong to yourself.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And if you refuse to belong to yourself in order to belong in the group, you don't belong. Wow.

[A]

That's very cool, Mari. Yeah, works.

[B]

Believe yourself.

[A]

Yeah. We believe ourselves. That's the. That's the way I think that we're all going to be able to stay wild. We hope you're enjoying Bewildered. If you're in the USA and want to be notified when a new, new episode comes out, text the word wild to 570-873-0144. We're also on Instagram. Our handle is Bewildered podcast. You can follow us to get updates, hear funny snippets and outtakes, and chat with other fans of the show. Bewildered is produced by Scott Forster with support from the Brilliant team at mbi. And remember, if you're having fun, please rate and review and stay wild.

[B]

People are always asking me, how did you get into training life coaches? And the answer is backwards. I did it backwards. That is, I didn't set up a program and then look for people to fill it. It's just that. So many people were coming to me for coaching that I realized in order to serve the market, I was going to have to train other people in my methods. That was decades ago, and now the Wayfinder program contains all my very best wisdom and tools for living, boiled down to their savory essence. Now if that sounds interesting to you, head on over to MarthaBeck.com and find your way.