Bewildered: "When to Go with the Flow"

Hosts: Martha Beck and Rowan Mangan
Date: October 16, 2024

Episode Overview

In this engaging and laughter-filled episode, Martha Beck and Rowan Mangan delve into a profound question: When should we “go with the flow” and surrender to life, and when might that actually mean blindly following cultural pressure? Using their familiar mix of wit, vulnerability, and philosophical inquiry, the hosts unpack the difference between living from true nature and succumbing to societal expectations, drawing on personal stories and a listener’s question about how to distinguish spiritual surrender from drifting passively in cultural currents.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Banter and Setup

• Rowan and Martha set a playful tone as they recount a recent ordeal at the bank, highlighting how easy it is to become lost or bewildered in mundane cultural settings.
• Rowan pokes fun at Martha’s absent-mindedness—Martha admits to not recalling what bank they were in despite logos everywhere.
  • Notable moment: “Sorry, I'm trying to see what bank we're in. I'm trying to figure out what bank we're in.” – Martha (04:53)
• They riff on what Jane Austen would do in a modern bank, blending literary references with observations about fitting in and feeling out of place.

2. Introduction of Listener Question

• The main topic emerges via a question from Mandy V., referencing Michael Singer’s Surrender Experiment. Mandy asks how to tell the difference between drifting in a cultural current and surrendering to cosmic guidance.
  • Listener quote: “Can you speak to the distinction between drifting in a cultural current versus surrendering to some kind of cosmic guidance?” – Mandy (18:24)

3. Culture vs. True Nature: The Core Problem

• Martha and Rowan agree this is the central question of the podcast: how to recognize whether behaviors arise from cultural influence or genuine inner guidance.
• Rowan observes that even supposedly “countercultural” approaches, like manifesting or spiritual surrender, sometimes become just another culture with their own expectations and pressures.
  • “If you know what you’re going to do before you know what the situation is, that starts sounding like culture.” – Rowan (27:49)

4. Martha’s Personal Story of Misguided Surrender

• Martha shares a revealing period from her life when she tried to say "yes" to absolutely everything, confusing the random suggestions of others with cosmic direction.
  • Martha describes becoming a “doormat,” following any advice, even from strangers, believing she was practicing spiritual surrender. This led to exhaustion and loss of integrity.
  • “I was literally just trying to do anything anyone said … I became a complete doormat.” – Martha (23:16)
  • Rowan helps clarify that rules which pre-determine behavior regardless of context are typically cultural, not rooted in genuine guidance.

5. The Clues to Cultural Influence

• They discuss the onion-like layers of culture: even “spiritual” or “surrender” communities form their own norms and pressures.
• Martha notes: You might escape the larger culture only to find yourself pressured by the micro-culture of people always saying yes to the universe.

6. Nature vs. Culture (Red Flags & Lived Guidance)

• Rowan suggests a red flag for being trapped in culture: finding “the answer” that you can apply universally and thus never have to think again.
  • “If there’s only one thing to do in every situation... that starts sounding like culture.” – Rowan (28:09)
• Martha observes that genuine guidance only ever gives you the next step—not a rulebook for life.
  • “You don’t get rules for the rest of your life from cosmic guidance. You get the next step, maybe.” – Martha (29:04)

7. Metaphor of the River: Barrels vs. Kayaks

• Rowan shares a vivid metaphor:
  • Total surrender as being nailed into a barrel and pushed over Niagara Falls, versus being in a kayak with a paddle, able to make moment-to-moment adjustments.
  • “In each moment you make an adjustment, but you’re still going with the flow. It’s a directed flow.” – Rowan (35:04)
• They agree that true nature isn’t about mindless surrender to the current, nor rigid self-direction, but about small, responsive course-corrections in the present.

8. The Role of Integrity and Moment-to-Moment Awareness

• Martha talks about her “year of truth”—not lying to herself or others—which restored her integrity and clarity about what was really right in each moment.
  • “At the end of that year, I had no relationships and I had my integrity back.” – Martha (37:03)
• By not lying or mindlessly following culture, she could sense the difference between external pressure and genuine flow/joy/freedom.

9. Relationships as Countercultural Flow

• Martha describes falling in love with Rowan and living in their non-traditional “Boston marriage” with Karen as both exhilarating and terrifying—truly going with a deep current, not with culture.
  • “Looks weird. Feels great.” – Rowan (38:18)
  • The feeling of being swept by the “cosmic flow” is intense and sometimes isolating, but ultimately aligned with their true selves.

10. Course Correction and Personal Responsibility

• Both hosts return to the importance of acknowledging personal choice, especially when it feels like others or culture have pressured them.
  • “My cosmic guidance always reminds me that it was my choice.” – Martha (44:14)
• Rowan emphasizes that you can’t ever permanently “clock off”—true nature demands ongoing responsiveness, not following a fixed rule.

11. The Middle Way & Joy as Guidance

• Martha references the Buddha’s teaching: always bring yourself back to the center—the “middle way”—rather than swinging between extremes.
  • “The middle way is where it’s the calmest, clearest, freest place.” – Martha (47:11)
• They agree real inner guidance pulls you forward through joy, fascination, fun, and true yearning (not cultural pressure).
  • “Pressure is always a sign you’re responding to an external directive … there’s a little handful of things that pull you forward as cosmic guidance: joy, fascination, fun, and yearning.” – Martha (48:59)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Sorry, I’m trying to see what bank we’re in. I’m trying to figure out what bank we’re in.” – Martha (04:53)
• “If you know what you’re going to do before you know what the situation is, that starts sounding like culture.” – Rowan (27:49)
• “You don’t get rules for the rest of your life from cosmic guidance. You get the next step, maybe.” – Martha (29:04)
• “Looks weird. Feels great.” – Rowan (38:18)
• “My cosmic guidance always reminds me that it was my choice.” – Martha (44:14)
• “The middle way is where it’s the calmest, clearest, freest place.” – Martha (47:11)
• “Pressure is always a sign you’re responding to an external directive.” – Martha (48:59)
• “Nature is always how it feels and never how it looks.” – Rowan (48:28)
• “Beware of safety. The illusion of safety is almost always culture.” – Rowan (50:59)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Bank story & culture in mundane life: 02:23–15:00
• Listener question: Manifesting, surrender & culture: 18:24–20:11
• Martha’s “say yes to everything” anecdote: 21:00–27:00
• Culture vs. nature—red flags and clues: 28:00–33:00
• Metaphor: Barrel vs. kayak/river: 35:04–38:16
• Falling in love & living counterculturally: 38:16–42:12
• Course correction, resentment, and responsibility: 43:29–46:45
• The middle way & true cosmic guidance: 47:11–50:22
• Final thoughts: “Beware of safety” and staying wild: 50:59–51:40

Tone and Takeaways

Martha and Rowan’s playful, irreverent, and deeply sincere tone makes the episode both accessible and profound. They lampoon their own mishaps, reference Jane Austen, and ground their ideas in lived experience. Ultimately, their message is that living in alignment with your true nature means tuning in—again and again—to what feels alive, joyful, and uniquely right for you in this moment, rather than following external scripts or culturally-approved forms of surrender.

Episode Summary in a Nutshell

“The cosmic flow isn’t a set of instructions—it’s a living current that calls for moment-to-moment awareness, integrity, and continual, joyful course correction. If you feel pressure, check for culture; if you feel joy, fascination, and deep yearning, chances are, you’re where you belong.”

Stay wild.