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- [00:00]
A
Hey, Marty.
- [00:01]
B
Hey, Rohi.
- [00:02]
A
Well, we've got a fun episode of Bewildered coming up for the Kahoot today. So today we're talking about surrendering to life versus trying to direct your life. Or like, isn't it more our true nature if we were to let the cosmic flow guide us through our lives?
- [00:21]
B
Sure, if you believe that, it's a nice concept, but how do you operationalize it? What are the directions for that?
- [00:30]
A
How do you do that? This is what we discussed today and what you'll find out in today's episode of Bewildered.
- [00:38]
B
So, as some of you listeners may know, a few months ago, Ro and I started something called the Wilder Community, which is kind of an online village where people like us who want to find our true nature, even if it peels us away from culture, can get together, commune, make friends and do things.
- [00:58]
A
We have all kinds of regular events in there that are just so fun. We have a weekly hang where we get together and we have conversation and we make art in our own little rooms, in our own little places. But all together, there are group meditations that Martha leads that are crazy powerful, and there are just all kinds of monthly themes and personal development stuff that we work through together and just a hive of activity and connection among really wonderful people.
- [01:31]
B
Yeah. So if you're feeling drawn to belong to a community in these troubled times, give Wilder a try. It's@wildercommunity.com all one word. And we hope we'll see you there. Hi, I'm Martha Beck.
- [01:46]
A
And I'm Rowan Mangan. And this is another episode of Bewildered, the podcast for people trying to figure it out.
- [01:53]
B
Just trying to figure it out. Yep. What are you trying to figure out, my darling?
- [01:59]
A
Oh, well, I feel like I always just go, oh, my God, where do I start? But where do I start? I am always trying to figure you out because you were fascinating. Because you're like a most like, to me, taken to my logical extreme, you know? And so we.
- [02:17]
B
I was thinking, I've never been accused of being logical.
- [02:20]
A
Well, yeah, to the extreme. Let's just say that.
- [02:23]
B
Yeah.
- [02:24]
A
We went to the bank, did we not?
- [02:27]
B
Oh, we did. I remember.
- [02:29]
A
Yeah. Recently, you and I went to the bank to open a new bank account that we had to do and recall. I mean, like, for the listeners, we were there for over, like, it was nearly two hours. It was like it was a hundred plus minutes. It, like, why? Why did it take that long? I don't know. We'd sent documents ahead of time, but that's not the point of this story. The point of this story is it's so boring in the bank. Okay? But there are those, like, modes that you can. Well, I can access a mode where even though I feel like I'm going to keel over from the boredom, I can. I can go into a mode that at least on the surface is like, oh, you do offer that. Yeah. Oh, no, no, I don't need to. I don't need to read. And. And so that's me sitting there. And we're. I don't know, we're like 25 minutes in, we're sitting in the bank. We've walked. Parked the car, we've walked into the bank, we sat down in the bank, and we've been there for 20 minutes. And at that point, our little friend who was helping us at the bank decided to get to the point. And she was like, okay, so let's open this account. And we were like, thank you.
- [03:44]
B
That.
- [03:44]
A
That would be great. That's the. Literally the only reason we're here. And so she. So she says, and do you already bank with us? Frankly, something she should already have known before we walked in the door, you would think. But anyway, whatever. She's doing her job. I'm doing my job. Marty, what job you are doing? I do not know. Because at the moment where she said, do you already bank with us? You did something that was quite hard for me to understand the motivation for, right? So as she waited for us to answer the question, do you already bank with us? You started looking around you as though there was like a bee in the room, like, frantically kind of turning your head up, down, looking behind you. And I was like, what is she doing? And then, you know that thing where you don't say the quiet bit out loud. So then Marty says to the woman who's helping us at the bank, she says, sorry, I'm trying to see what bank we're in. I'm trying to figure out what bank we're in. And I. I just thought.
- [04:53]
B
I didn't know.
- [04:55]
A
Yeah, but how could you? Like, it's just amazing. It's amazing. And it's just you. It's just you.
- [05:02]
B
I just followed you like a duckling. That's what I do.
- [05:05]
A
You are so cute. And the woman like, you know, because bankers are a different species.
- [05:09]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [05:10]
A
I mean, we love them. The ones that can get to the point. We love those things, adore them. But she could not fathom it. I mean, I'll admit I can't fathom that. You said it out loud. I Wasn't remotely surprised that you didn't.
- [05:22]
B
Know what bank we were in.
- [05:25]
A
She was like, eyes did that Jim.
- [05:27]
B
Carrey, like.
- [05:30]
A
Thing came out of her head. And I. I spent the rest of the nearly two hours in the bank trying to come back from it. Oh, but there was another funny thing I need to do. A callback to the Grack. Your ankle story that some listeners will remember from a podcast some time ago where Marty told a story about doing. Trying to crack her ankles many years ago. Just listen to the back catalog. I can't give you any clues. That will be spoilers. So at one point, she's trying. This banker is trying to get us to sign something with a stylus. Because I said, okay, this is where I'm bad. I'm like, I literally can't do that with my finger. If I try to do that, it's just finger painting. Then that's what it looks like. And so she's like, well, let's see if we can get someone with a stylus in the office. And so they. They then proceed to spend 15 minutes trying to find us a stylus with which to sign our names for our account, which have to be recognizable. Right. Okay. I can't just go, all right. Comes back with the stylus. It's a dodgy stylus. And while I'm going to tell you the name of the bank we were in, which was very clearly displayed everywhere. Everywhere, as well as in our calend. This is the appointment you're going to today. The bank. You would think a bank of its, I don't know, prestige, Stature. Stature. Thank you. Might have been on top of this. But anyway, there we are. The stylus was crap. It didn't work. And at one point, Marty was trying to sign, and the woman who was helping us from the bank began to say, you need to tap it. Tap, tap. She was like, oh, she was so frustrated, which is ironic given that we'd been in there for so long. She was so. She was so frustrated that Marty wasn't doing it right. She started, like, prompting her. Tap, tap it. Tap, tap, tap. And when she started going tap, tap, Marty got stressed out. And so she started just going with the stylus.
- [07:31]
B
Tap, tap, tap. What was I supposed to do? I still don't know. Was it that eft thing where you tap your body to calm down?
- [07:38]
A
Oh, that's what we should have been using.
- [07:40]
B
I should have tapped her. Oh, my gosh.
- [07:42]
A
But just that moment across, that moment where you said, I'm just trying to figure out what bank we're in right now will go down in my heart as one of the all time great Marty Beck out in the world moments. And I really wanted our listeners to hear it because it's like, you know what? Yes, she's a genius. I know. And also that. Right. That's all I'll say. I'll say that.
- [08:08]
B
And after I. After the critical moment had passed and I started seeing logos everywhere, business cards, you know, like a little bunting sign. The woman had it stapled across her forehead. And I was just like, where are we? I don't know if I have a bank.
- [08:26]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [08:27]
B
I turn into like Scooby Doo in banks. Once, I swear to God, I fell peacefully asleep on the banker's desk. I just put my head forward just to rest it for a minute. And I woke up about an hour later. Karen was still working with the banker. See, when. This is how I react to banking and anything related to it. But they love it when Karen walks in.
- [08:56]
A
Oh, is this what you're trying to figure out?
- [08:58]
B
One of the things like, how does she do it? How does she do it? She manages to follow the thing about how many points, whether or not there's a fee.
- [09:08]
A
First time listeners, welcome. Welcome to the Kahoot, which is what we call you our people, because we're in cahoots. So Karen is our beloved. And that's all I'll say. She's my beloved. She's Marty's beloved. And thank you for her. Or we would both be quite literally, like, wandering in the woods.
- [09:25]
B
Yes. And Karen is just able. You go into that mode. And I'm amazed. Karen goes into that mode so deeply that half the people we've ever banked with have literally come to our house for dinner. I'm like, no, Karen, shut it down. I don't. It's bad enough to be here with them. Don't bring them home. But she'll be like, and he ate at this restaurant right across from that one. We. And I just don't care. Make them go away. It's like some kind of a horror film with zombies, only it's Karen. People with logistical competence are the zombies of my world. Yeah. But what I was really thinking about. You want to know what I was really thinking about?
- [10:07]
A
Yeah.
- [10:09]
B
I was thinking about how sometimes at the bank, they would say to me things that would confuse Jane Austen.
- [10:19]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [10:20]
B
Yes. And this is what I was thinking about because I've been rereading Jane Austen.
- [10:24]
A
This is what you were thinking about while we were in there?
- [10:26]
B
Yes. Because I've been rereading Pride and Prejudice, sprinkled with Spanish words to try to learn Spanish. It's the thing. They have it online. Try it. It's great. It's weird to have Jane Austen suddenly say hombre. You know, it's. But it's fun. It's so fun. It's like Jane is gaining a whole new dimension. But I like to think about, as I walk about the world, how Jane Austen is this, you know, like, incredible, exquisite observation of manners and people who are a little put off and people who don't do everything right. And how she always is so gracious and so. Always the smartest person in the room. And I just want to bring her out from the past and say, come with me and have her come to the bank. And she would do everything right. And then they would say to her, here, sign this document. You can do it with your finger or a mouse. And she would be like, I imagine. And I love the thought of Jane Austen looking for a mouse with which to sign a document.
- [11:28]
A
You know what? You are so freaking cute, because A, that is funny, and B, like, that's a joke from 1993 as well. Like a mouse.
- [11:39]
B
I mean, it's a mouse, but it's not a real mouse.
- [11:42]
A
Know what I mean? Jerry Seinfeld bit.
- [11:45]
B
Yes, but this is 30 years later, and I'm talking about Jane Austen in Spanish, having to sign a bank. Notice, this is not something they talked about in 1993. It is fresh and new as a. As a newborn babe. Ro. A newborn babe. You can sign it with your finger or a mouse. Jane.
- [12:05]
A
I wonder what it would feel like to be told to sign something with a mouse and not.
- [12:12]
B
You lived in for it. There were a lot of mice around.
- [12:15]
A
Yeah.
- [12:15]
B
I mean, we used to live way out in the country. There are mice everywhere. She was acquainted with mice.
- [12:21]
A
If you signed it with the tail, you can sort of see how that. You know what I mean? Like, it's like a bit of a. There's a bit of a fountain pen.
- [12:30]
B
I was thinking more of holding it by its little midsection, maybe, you know, just behind the head so its little feet are all splayed out. And then you thump it on an ink pad and just press it. Press it onto the paper.
- [12:44]
A
That's cruel.
- [12:44]
B
Not. Not in a. Not. Not in a mean way. Thump it in a nice way.
- [12:48]
A
Thump it in a nice way.
- [12:50]
B
Well, just tap, tap, tap, like I was supposed to do with the stove. I still don't know what she wanted me to Tap my intelligence. Sorry, that's been gone for years. I wanted so much to just lean across her desk and just tap her right in the center of her forehead. Tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap. And just say it at the same time. Tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap. What would she have done if Jane Austen were with us? What would she have thought? She wouldn't have known what bank we were in. They didn't even have America. Oh, yes, they did. Sorry, sorry.
- [13:29]
A
I.
- [13:35]
B
Anyway.
- [13:35]
A
Oh, my God. She.
- [13:36]
B
I'd rather sign it with a rat.
- [13:38]
A
I'm trying to think because she, like her. Her books are like comedies. Comedy of comedies of manners, I guess you.
- [13:45]
B
I think comedies of manners.
- [13:47]
A
Yeah. Like, how would you. As Jane Austen or as like Emma from Jane Austen or Elizabeth Bennett or something like that. Someone who's good at stuff like that, like people and situations, which is basically all of Jane Austen's books are about people and situations and actually much of literature, now that I think about it. But anyway, I digress.
- [14:09]
B
The old man, the sea person situation. Same as Jane Austen.
- [14:15]
A
So many regrets right now. But like, if Jane Austen had been sitting in there, like as we ticked around past the 90 minute mark to set up one simple bank account. I mean, listener. It was not a complex task.
- [14:28]
B
No.
- [14:29]
A
We'd heard a lot about her son. A lot to make apps. And he had some limited success, you know, anyway, you don't want to.
- [14:38]
B
And all the places he went to us.
- [14:40]
A
But what. Yeah, but what did. What would Jane Austen have done as like a pro in manners after 90 minutes would. Because she's witty. Right. How would she have gotten out of that? Because I. I don't. I couldn't think of anything to do. I was like held in a spell.
- [14:59]
B
I think she would have gotten to her feet with those big skirts they had and just gently swept past the woman to the window and looked out and said, we should walk if it's fine. And then tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap on the woman's head until it drove her slightly crazy and then we would leave.
- [15:18]
A
I think you're right, but I think she would have said we could walk if it's. Buen tiempo.
- [15:23]
B
Oh, excuse me, Mr. Darcy. I believe it's become muy caliente. Mr. Darcy. Woo. Two es muy caliente.
- [15:42]
A
He wasn't, though. That's why I'm never.
- [15:44]
B
I know.
- [15:45]
A
Anyway, we. We really digress.
- [15:47]
B
And this is enough.
- [15:48]
A
We get accused enough.
- [15:49]
B
Enough. Like college talk about literature and banks. Things that I prefer never to think about again.
- [15:55]
A
And attractive men, which we try never to think about at all.
- [16:00]
B
I forgot there was even such a thing.
- [16:05]
A
If you are enjoying Bewildered, there are a few ways you can express your support for us. You can subscribe to the POD or follow it, depending on your app. It's a great way to get us in front of more people. And as always, we love a little rate and review action, especially when the reviews are kind and the ratings are high, strangely. And finally, if you really want to go to the next level with Bewildered, check out our online community, wildercommunity.com we'll see you there.
- [16:41]
B
Hello, the lovely peoples. This is Marty, Martha, guiding you to a free masterclass that I have made called five paths to your purpose. Probably the most common question I get from people is, how do I find my purpose? Why don't I feel that I'm on purpose? Well, it turns out there are certain things you have to do to find your purpose, and I broke them down into five, and I made a little masterclass about it. So if you'd like to see it, just go to MarthaVeck.com/purpose and you will be able to watch it without any charge at all.
- [17:26]
A
Let's move on to the topic at hand, shall we?
- [17:29]
B
Yes, please.
- [17:30]
A
So today, regular listeners will be excited to know that we are doing a Bewild Files episode of and the Be Wild Files is when we hear from you, our beloveds, our peeps, our. And you tell us what you're trying to figure out, and then we try to figure out what you're trying to figure out. And then we try to all figure it out together. And we don't really get anywhere, but we all enjoy the ride.
- [17:59]
B
Exactly.
- [18:00]
A
Yeah.
- [18:00]
B
I think that's beautiful. And I think. I think that if I ever meet all of them in person, we should have the A call like Kahoot. Like that.
- [18:10]
A
Okay, let's workshop that offline.
- [18:12]
B
All right, here we go.
- [18:15]
A
So, anyway, well, today we're hearing from Mandy, who has a question about surrender versus flow. Let's hear from our good friend Mandy.
- [18:25]
B
Hello, Marty and Ro.
- [18:26]
C
This is Mandy V. And I need your help. So I feel a lot of pressure to manifest some big advice, important dream in the world and go against this cultural current. Honestly, that feels quite contrived and sort of cultural in itself. So I recently read a book called the Surrender Experiment by Michael Singer, which is a memoir about how he turned his life over to the universe and how this current took him to extraordinary places that he could not have fathomed on his own. And I sort of feel like this is a much better path for me. Can you speak to the distinction between drifting in a cultural current versus surrendering to some kind of cosmic guidance? Thank you so much for your help.
- [19:04]
A
Obsessed with this question. Absolutely obsessed with it. So good question. So smart and so. Okay, so can you speak, yes, at length to the distinction between drifting in a cultural current versus surrendering to some kind of cosmic guidance? So here's what I think Mandy's getting at. Marty and I would, like, had to sort of wrap our arms and legs around this one for a while. So I think that that stating that Mandy's saying, stating what you want your life to look like, especially if it's like, big, fancy, shiny life, and then trying to manifest that or make it real in a direct way, is like living in response to and therefore kind of within the culture. And so she's asking us, is it more countercultural or true nature to do, like, Michael Singer, and, like, surrender your will and, like, be a leaf in the stream? You actually said in one of your books and see what the universe just wants from you in this lifetime. Right.
- [20:12]
B
This is really the core question we're always looking at on the podcast. Right. Like, what is the difference between the behaviors we adopt because of cultural pressure and the behaviors that truly represent our deepest selves?
- [20:25]
A
Right.
- [20:25]
B
And. And she's put this interesting spin on it by saying it. Say, the Michael Singer idea of saying yes to everything, to the universe. Is that a good alternative? And it's a wonderful practice to adopt. I just had one thing to say before we go on with this, and that's that for a while. I tried this for a while, and it was before I knew the difference between what the feeling of pressure of the culture is and what cosmic guidance is.
- [20:58]
A
Interesting. Okay.
- [21:01]
B
I mean, you didn't grow up around people who were saying to you, I know what cosmic guidance is, and I have it all the time, and I know what you should do. I avoided you because I grew up. Yeah. I grew up in a very religious community where everybody, especially the male people, identified male, had personal revelations and were, you know, talked about it all the time. So I sort of pushed away from all that, and then I went to. Went off to college, graduate school, had my.
- [21:30]
A
Sorry, wait, you went to college? You didn't mention where.
- [21:34]
B
Harvard. Yeah. Nowhere.
- [21:36]
A
Okay. Okay. Randomly have a sip of my water.
- [21:39]
B
Near Boston. Yeah. Okay. So when Adam was born, I had all these, you know, like, metaphysical experiences, and I was like, oh, my goodness, there's something to this cosmic force. Like, maybe it isn't blind chance. Maybe there is a divine something. So I thought, well, I want to say yes to that. I'm going to say yes to that. And I was so physically and emotionally beat up that I went back to Utah, where I'd grown up, for two reasons. I wanted to finish my PhD dissertation in a place where it was easier to raise kids than in Cambridge and Massachusetts, that is. And I also knew that the people around me in Utah would not question my decision to keep the baby. And so text.
- [22:28]
A
Adam has down syndrome.
- [22:30]
B
Yeah. And he was diagnosed prenatally and very late.
- [22:34]
A
She kept him. And. And a lot of Harvard people thought that was a bad idea, because. Very bad decision because they really valued being super smart.
- [22:40]
B
That's.
- [22:41]
A
That's my Cliff Notes version of Marty's life story.
- [22:44]
B
Thank you. Now you don't have to read anything I've ever written. Anyway, I thought, well, I had felt these experiences of a force that was incredibly loving, incredibly home, incredibly peaceful, everything they talk about. So I was like, okay, well, I want to follow that. And I went back to Utah, and I became a complete doormat. I would do anything everyone anyone said. I. I didn't just follow the rules of Mormonism. I would find I would research other religions and follow their rules as well.
- [23:16]
A
Wait, wait, wait, wait. So you. When you say rule, do you mean that you were. If anyone said anything to you, you took that as being. For the sake of, like, what Mandy's saying you took everything anyone said you should do as cosmic guidance? Is that what you mean?
- [23:32]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I was just gonna say yes to the universe. Right. I'm just gonna say yes to everything.
- [23:37]
A
But is Mrs. Mills at the. At the hardware store? Is she, like. Why is she necessarily the voice of the universe? Sorry. I'm sorry to cross examination.
- [23:46]
B
It's a really good question, and I think when you first start looking for a source of guidance outside of culture, it is a really good. Is the woman at the hardware store the voice of the divine intelligence of nature, or is she not. Is she just talking? And I couldn't differentiate. I didn't know. So somebody would say something to me at the hardware store, and I would literally go do it. Like, I said yes to everything.
- [24:14]
A
So you started using a stud finder on the regular before you.
- [24:17]
B
Oh, I did. I did indeed. But that was the lesbianism, like, raising. Trying to come up out of the morass of rule following. Yeah. I mean, and maybe because I was so dissociated from myself that I didn't know I was gay. I was so dissociated. I didn't know what felt like truth. It was very. I didn't have much foundation in solid integrity, like knowing what had happened to me in my life and what it felt like and what had made me feel more healthy and what had made me feel less healthy. I didn't have that foundation. I had just tried to please everyone all the time. That's how I got to Harvard. Drink.
- [25:01]
A
And that felt like cosmic guidance to you. Sorry.
- [25:06]
B
I mean, you say the. You say the woman at the hardware store, but literally, I went to the hardware store once, and somebody there made a reference to this Mormon authority who'd written stuff and said, you should read this book he wrote and do whatever's in it. And so I went and got the book and I read it and I tried to do everything in it because of a guy at the hardware store. I'm not even kidding.
- [25:31]
A
And because to you, that was the mouthpiece of God or the. Or the.
- [25:34]
B
Everything was right.
- [25:36]
A
Yeah.
- [25:36]
B
I was like, God is everywhere. I became a pantheist. God is everywhere in everything. So I'm just going to say yes. Then I ran into some problems. For example, if you're a young working mother or a working mother of any age.
- [25:48]
A
Thank you.
- [25:49]
B
You are going to encounter. You are going to encounter, get this. Conflicting demands, like you will try to say yes to things that are mutually incompatible.
- [26:02]
A
Let's just say working parent. Let's not be too working parent.
- [26:05]
B
Right.
- [26:06]
A
I mean, let's be more general.
- [26:07]
B
Also, also, also, also, the moment there's a person in the room who says yes to everything, it is like chumming the water for sharks. People begin to swim up to you, who have a vested interest in getting you to do what they want.
- [26:25]
A
So it can be. It can be. It was in your experience. Yeah, yeah.
- [26:30]
B
If you do. If. If you're as unbalanced and ungrounded as I was, I was literally just trying to say do anything anyone said. And so some people just thought I was weird, but other people, they thought I was useful.
- [26:45]
A
They were useful. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [26:48]
B
And basically I overworked. I over cared. I over everything until I literally almost died. Yeah.
- [26:58]
A
So I think what you in that situation were doing, and you tell me where I'm wrong, is you decided that saying yes to everything, which isn't necessarily exactly what Mandy's talking about, but, you know, like, in. In your experience, that's. That's how it manifested. So it's like, here is the rule. I say yes to everything. And So I think that's part of. As we unpick. Mandy's question is part of it is that, like, if. If there's only one thing to do in every situation, eg, in your case, say yes to the hardware store chick. And. Sorry, I shouldn't say chick.
- [27:50]
B
Whatever.
- [27:51]
A
So. So, yeah, so that's the thing is that. That to me, the thing is, if you've always. If you know what you're going to do before you know what the situation is, that's going to call for it. To me, that starts sounding like culture.
- [28:09]
B
That's really interesting. And the other thing, you're pinging this for me because this is definitely a shortfall that I have in my own experience. What you're pinging for me is that I was doing things that were not concerned with anything in the moment. I was, like, going and reading books about what I should do for the rest of my life. You know what I mean? It wasn't about what to do right now. And I really think, I mean, this is for later on in the podcast, but you don't get rules for the rest of your life from cosmic guidance. You get the next step, maybe, but culture just can't help. There's, you know, the left side of the brain seizes on. There is one right way, and then it makes these cultural layers. Right. If you set out to do this experiment, you are in an onion layer of cultures that just goes from small to large and back again. So you've got, like, the culture of success, the American dream. Get the big house, get the big car. That's a cultural pressure. And then if you say, no, I don't like that. I'm going to be more spiritual. Well, now you might find yourself in the culture of spiritually oriented Americans who have their own kind of language and their own kind of culture. Again, you find that you're under cultural pressure to look a certain way, talk a certain way, fit with a certain group. So then within that, you might have. You might say, okay, I'm not going to follow that. I'm going to specifically just be with people who've surrendered and who always say yes to the universe. And then you may find yourself in a tiny little subculture around that cultures form around almost anything. And whenever you feel pressure, it may be coming from a culture that has formed that you didn't even know existed.
- [30:01]
A
Right. And, yeah, I think that's true, but that you might find yourself surrounded by a little culture. You can. You don't have to have other people around you doing the same thing to be in a culture. Right. Because culture is, is, is an impulse or a set of behaviors that are about. What do we say on this? What is it we say on this podcast? Coming to consensus. Coming to consensus rather than coming to your senses. So as soon as you're leaving your senses and saying, I'll always do this. So I think like a big red flag for me and Mandy. Remember, we're just talking about this from through our lens. It's not. This is like, for God's sake, don't treat this as the thing that's always universally true for God.
- [30:46]
B
Now we're.
- [30:48]
A
Yeah, but, but so for me personally, what I would say is like a red flag that you're in culture and not in your own true nature is when you say, okay, I've found the thing now. I found it. It's called, you know, whatever. I'm not even going to say things because it will start to sound bad, but I've signed up for it. I never have to think about it ever again. I know from now on that whatever situation I find myself in, in, I'm going to do this because it says right here in this book or whatever. And I wasn't meaning Michael Singer, I was actually meaning the Bible as the example.
- [31:28]
B
Nobody's going to object to that. Rowie. Yeah, it's so it's, it's such a well meaning thing to do and it's a labor saving device. Oh my goodness. I never have to, I never have to decide again. I have the rule book to lean on. For some reason I'm zipping into the play or the short. Was it a novel? The Crucible where all the.
- [31:48]
A
It's a novel.
- [31:50]
B
Okay. So all the people in early America are running around hunting witches based on the rules of the book and what rules people are keeping or not keeping starts to get more and more granular and more and more judgmental, more and more self righteous and ultimately more and more violent. So it's weird. This very well meaning thing, if you succumb to the layers of culture, can turn really ugly. But we see it as, we do it because we're so well meaning. We do it as the ultimate social grace. I'm going to give up not my will, but thine be done. That self abnegation virtue. That's how it's seen, guess where in our culture, right?
- [32:37]
A
And it's. That can look really beautiful, right? That can look like let me be a pencil in the hand of God or whatever. Like that can look lovely. And it's like anything is. It's like, sure, like. But don't say always and don't say every single time. Yeah. Under any circumstances, don't say that.
- [32:59]
B
Yeah. And also, it can look really beautiful if it's real. And once you get in touch with yourself, as I ultimately did, it can look really beautiful if it's real and look really strange when it's not. Like, I really think that the two young people who live in our house, Adam and Lila, both of them not yet really subjected to culture, I think they can tell the difference instantaneously between someone who's saying yes to their own cosmic guidance and yes to a culture. One one is fresh and life giving, and the other one is stagnating and suffocating.
- [33:39]
A
Okay, so how do we then come to our senses about this, Martha?
- [33:45]
B
Well, I think we should figure that out right after this. So, Rowie, we've talked about coming to consensus. Now how do we come to our senses when we're looking to do the surrender to the yes thing.
- [34:08]
A
Yeah, surrender to the. The cosmic flow of it all versus trying to direct our own lives. Really, genuinely one of my favorite questions we've ever had. So I have a metaphor for you. Regular listeners will be absolutely mind blowing that there's a metaphor in this podcast, but, you know, everyone can change. Huh? So here's my metaphor for total flow. Total yes to the universe, no matter what. And versus being super cultural about I need $6 million in a Ferrari. So this is my metaphor. So the first one is. It's about rivers, because rivers are like my favorite thing in the world. So the first one, go with the flow, no matter what. My metaphor is, you're getting in a barrel. The barrel is being closed. I'm not. I'm hazy on how that used to happen. When people went over Niagara, they had friends. They had friends. They had questionable.
- [35:04]
B
Questionable friends. Yes, they did. Yeah, that happened.
- [35:07]
A
Yeah. So that happens. But, like, don't let that sway you in any way about the. My. The neutrality of my metaphor. So you're. You get in a barrel and you're rolled onto the Niagara river and it's total surrender where the current of the river takes you. There you go. If there is a waterfall there you go, over you go. And some people survived that. So, you know, neutral metaphor three survived it. So this is my variation on that in terms of surrender, because I do think surrender is really beautiful as a general sometimes way of doing life. So, yeah, say instead of getting nailed into a barrel, we get in our kayak Right. With our paddle and we go for a kayak along a river, and there's a current to the river. It's a strong current. We live near the Delaware river, and it's got a strong current. And so you're. Yeah, you're definitely flowing, you know, but the. But the difference is that you're making slight course corrections as you go according to what it feels like in each moment, as in each moment. Right. So, yeah, you don't know. Upstream three miles. What you're going to want to do when you get to this. Oh, no, I'm going to run out of river words, Eddie. It's an eddy. It's a flu flux. I don't know. There's a real goddamn rock in the water or a duck or something. Okay. You didn't know about that before. And so you make an adjustment, but you're still going with the flow. You're just. It's a directed flow. So that is my metaphor. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen and others.
- [37:04]
B
Thank you very much. I will. I was about to nail you into a barrel, but I. I guess I decided not to. As you were talking, I was thinking about how this has felt to me. First of all, the way I got out of the doormat situation was I decided to tell the nothing but the truth for a year. I've talked about that endlessly. Other places. I did not lie for a single year. At the end of that year, I had no relationships and I had my integrity back. And from there, it's been easy to feel what's the flow of the universe and what is being nailed into a barrel and shoved over it by people calling themselves your friends. Nobody's ever done that to me. I'm just. It's a metaphor. It's a metaphor. The thing I'm thinking as you're talking, those of you who have not heard other versions, other episodes of the podcast and have just heard Karen mentioned, our beloved I. Beloved? Yeah. We live in a deeply satisfying domestic arrangement, or Boston marriage, as it was called back in the old days. Three, you know, three women raising a baby in the woods and doing it together. So it's an unorthodox situation. It's quite countercultural.
- [38:16]
A
Looks weird. Feels great.
- [38:18]
B
Yeah, looks weird. Feels great. I was paddling along in my kayak and I looked pretty normal, you know, like I was living in the woods in California, and that was a little abnormal, but in a kind of fun way. And people were, like, all around, and we would do a lot of spiritual talk, and I meditated. So I fit into the culture of the spirituality.
- [38:39]
A
You fit into California?
- [38:41]
B
Yeah, of like, New Age California spirituality. And then you came to visit, and getting to know you and what happened with the three of us was almost, for me, like Niagara Falls. It was. I could hear a roaring downstream, and I was terrified because I was once again going to go off culture and everybody was going to think how weird I was. And I couldn't lie because that was my whole thing. If I start lying, especially to myself, I lose the ability to differentiate what feels like freedom to me, which I think is truth and peaceful, and what is anxious and crunches me up and makes me want to keep secrets, which never works for me. So I knew I was going to have to do this openly, and I knew it would be super weird. And I am here to tell you people the Delaware river, like you. Somebody was telling me yesterday, I was talking to a friend, and she said, there's such a lot of energy in some situations that it's like somebody who says, I'm not going to let this happen, standing on the beach and a tsunami is coming, and they're standing there going, no, I refuse it. I will not. And it just takes you, right? And in a way, that's kind of the payoff, I think, of learning to follow those subtle signals. Because once you're cued in at every single moment, sometimes it's really gentle and slow, but when it takes you, you know it's taking you, and it's like, oh, there is something. There is something. There's a current. There is the way. There is the force. And it's. It's moving me. Yeah, but you have to pay such close attention.
- [40:35]
A
Falling in love with me was the equivalent of getting nailed into a box and going over the world's, like, most famous enormous waterfall.
- [40:45]
B
Yes, but you and Karen were also in the barrel. See, so we got smashed together.
- [40:50]
A
So it was also, like, claustrophobic.
- [40:53]
B
No, it was. It was very intimate. It was very tender.
- [40:59]
A
I don't know.
- [40:59]
B
And we got the shit kicked out of us.
- [41:01]
A
Well, we did get the shit kicked out of us. That. That is true, and, you know, it continues to be true from the culture from time to time a little bit. We're better at dealing with it now. Now it's just like, we got a pedal. We're in our kayak. At the time, I was like, I feel like I haven't authorized the. You've taken my metaphor and. And used it about us falling in love. And I think you should have, like, asked permission for my Metaphor. It's trademarked.
- [41:25]
B
I'm so sorry.
- [41:26]
A
Yeah.
- [41:27]
B
You were just talking about it, and I could hear the roaring downstream, and I thought, oh, I remember this. I mean, now I hear it again because I'll. I'll say. I'll say something also about you, about how, like, finding my integrity and then finding you would fit so well, is you will not let me leave my integrity. Like, you feel the difference between people just bullshitting and people actually doing something that feels real. More acutely than anyone else I've ever met, I think. And you will not let me get on any kind of false course.
- [42:03]
A
Every now and again, we secretly agree not to go to a social engagement, but otherwise, you. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.
- [42:12]
B
Also, I just made it sound like Ro is the cult leader that I've been looking for all my life and that she is all the rules, and I don't have to make a decision anymore. But you never get to clock off. Never.
- [42:24]
A
Yeah. So. And I mean, that's. Wow. Long way round.
- [42:30]
B
We.
- [42:31]
A
Whenever we think, oh, I found it. This is the way. This is how I get to do it. I am now on a. Oh, get this, Marty. Okay, now what I'm on instead of a kayak or a barrel, is now I'm on one of those inner tubes that go down the river. And you just like kicking back and you know that the current's got you, but nothing bad's going to happen because it's run by a tourism company and they've got good liability insurance and stuff. So you're just chilling. And that's what we think happens when we find an answer that applies to every situation. But we don't get to clock off that way. We don't get to check out mentally and. And spiritually from the moment that we're in. We always need to be in our lives making our own adjustments to the course that we're on based on how we feel. Not based on any book or any person at the hardware store or anyone speaking any sort of truth to us.
- [43:29]
B
Yeah. And whenever I get confused, it feels awful and I have to go off by myself. That's the first step. And I breathe. And sometimes I go, well, I was being pressured into that thing I didn't like. And I'm tempted to blame culture, blame the other people around me who, in my. When one view, pressured me into doing it. But when I'm always open to the cosmic guidance, one thing it always tells me is, you made a choice, dear.
- [43:58]
A
Say more about that. I don't really understand well, when I.
- [44:04]
B
Feel like I have kind of gotten confused and I don't know what my guidance is, or I do something that feels wrong to me. Like somebody asks me, I want to. I want you to do this, this, this, and this for me. And it feels icky.
- [44:16]
A
But you say, well, because you surrender.
- [44:18]
B
I say yes because it's a friend or it's. They have a deep need or whatever it is. And then more often than not, a person who encroaches on your boundaries that way will encroach even further. And so I get into these struggles where I'm trying to say yes to everything, but somebody's asking me things that I want to say no to or.
- [44:36]
A
That you should say no to or.
- [44:38]
B
That I should have said no to. And then I get. We were talking today about how the resentment is such a signal that you've already caved in to someone's social request that you shouldn't be doing. And what I was saying is that when I get in touch with one of those things and I feel angry at someone for pressuring me, my cosmic guidance always reminds me that it is. It was my choice. I'm not saying that everything. Everybody gets to do things by choice like I am. That is coming from a privileged place, there are a lot of conditions that really can force people to do a lot of things. But when I say yes when I meant no in my life so far, it's always been a choice. A choice that probably that maybe saved a friendship or got out of an embarrassing situation, but a choice nevertheless. And when I follow the cosmic guidance, the water can get a little bumpy when somebody's pressuring you to say yes, and the answer is really no, and you still have to follow it if you want to feel centered, if you want to go toward the ultimate expression of your true nature.
- [45:51]
A
Yeah, yeah. And.
- [45:53]
B
And sometimes yes.
- [45:54]
A
And crucially, unfortunately for our little. Our little meat selves here, our little human egoic, our little bound body selves, we are not ever going to find the. The one answer to every situation. We're, you know, that. That is. I mean, look, there is an infinite number of monkeys on an infinite number of typewriters somewhere that could chart a life where just saying yes to every possible foreseeable situation for one person could work. But I just think that's what that. What. Instead, what it is for most of us is, okay, I made that call. Like Marty said. I made that decision. I said yes to something that should have been. That my integrity said should have been a no, cooler.
- [46:46]
B
Right.
- [46:46]
A
So I'd get my little paddle. Very mixed metaphor. And I. And I paddle back closer to the center of the river, which in this metaphor is my integrity and my alignment with who I am. And I will end up in the weeds if I. If I keep going further off track. And that. That's not flow either.
- [47:06]
B
This is actually. The Buddha used almost the same metaphor. He was talking about a rope.
- [47:11]
A
Compare me to the Buddha. That happens a lot.
- [47:15]
B
Yeah. It's because you sit so still, my love.
- [47:17]
A
Oh, my God, I'm sorry. I never sit still. I'm always wriggling. That's good for you.
- [47:23]
B
No, but he said some students came to him and they were like, you told person X to go be more wild and free and crazy, like, to go have fun. And so we all went to have fun, and then you told person Y to be more serious. And then we all got serious. But you're just. You're hypocritical. This is hypocrisy. And he said, no. If he's going off into the weeds in one direction, I'll bring him into the center, the middle way. If he's going off in the other direction, I'll correct him into the center the middle way. The middle way is where it's the calmest, clearest, freest place. And I think that's a big difference between Asian and Western mindsets that we really do in the West. We have a historical mindset of anguish and deprivation. For me, will lead to good things. For you, it is a virtue where the whole Asian thing or even like the hedonists were like this, though. Nobody says they were. They're just like, if you're doing what's right, it feels pretty good. And things are pretty problem free. And so if you're having correct course. Correct course one way or another.
- [48:29]
A
But crucially, if it feels good. Right. If it's feeling good. So it's like, okay, Nature is always as we like to bang on about. Nature is always how it feels and never how it looks. And. And so to Mandy's point about feeling pressure to do something big and manifest like a big destiny, I think if that you're feeling a pressure, if that were in your nature, it would feel exciting. It would feel like a towards. It would feel enticed.
- [48:59]
B
Yeah. Pressure is always a sign you're responding to an external directive. And there's a little handful of things that really pull you forward as cosmic guidance that I think you should say yes to. And they are joy, fascination, fun, and yearning. Not wanting, but yearning, which comes from a deeper place.
- [49:20]
A
And no matter what, you should always, always, always absolutely say yes to those things with no exceptions. I'm just making fun of you now.
- [49:31]
B
Now we're doing it. We're doing it. We can't help do what we say, Mandy. Now we're culture.
- [49:37]
A
Nature is always changing, never staying still. Nature is always adaptive to the context it's in, never universal in all contexts and all situations. So with Marty, you. You teach your wayfinder coach training. And the idea of being a wayfinder is that you get life skills, right? You get life skills, and they apply in the same way, no matter what the terrain is. So you don't need to memorize the terrain or understand the terrain where you're going. You. You need to know how to navigate, and that's wayfinding, right? And then once. Once you've got that locked in, any terrain is. Is sort of passable and manageable because the skills remain the same. Fair. That's.
- [50:23]
B
Yeah, yeah. You can be in any bank, and if you look around hard enough, you'll figure out which bank. And then when they ask you to sign with a mouse, you can grab that little rodent and just calmly stamp him in the ink.
- [50:36]
A
It is so funny that we're here being the ones to talk and give advice, isn't it?
- [50:41]
B
That's ridiculous. It's the Kahoot. We're just here for the Kahoot to remind you that always tap, tap, tap, and always feel for the sense of joy, fun, fascination, or yearning, and always feel free to surrender to yes or no.
- [50:59]
A
One of my favorite poorly translated signs from, I think Chinese, and this applies so beautifully here is. I'm going to post it on our Bewildered podcast, Instagram. It's a sign and it's. It says what it says in Chinese, and then in English, it's translated as beware of safety. And that's what I think we have to beware of, because the illusion of safety is almost always culture.
- [51:25]
B
Wow. Well, on that note, my love, yes, let's go do what cosmic flow asks us to do. I feel like I have a barrel that I want you to nail me in too, so we should go get that job done.
- [51:40]
A
Let's do it. And in the meantime, let's all say wild. We hope you're enjoying Bewildered. If you're in the USA and want to be notified when a new episode comes out, text the word wild to 570873-0144. We're also on Instagram. Our handle is Bewildered podcast. You can follow us to get updates, hear funny snippets and outtakes, and chat with other fans of the show. Bewildered is produced by Scott Forster with support from the Brilliant team at mbi. And remember, if you're having fun, please rate and review and stay wild.
- [52:32]
B
People are always asking me, how did you get into training life coaches? And the answer is backwards. I did it backwards. That is, I didn't set up a program and then look for people to fill it. It's just that so many people were coming to me for coaching that I realized in order to serve the market, I was going to have to train other people in my methods. That was decades ago, and now the Wayfinder program contains all my very best wisdom and tools for living, boiled down to their savory essence. Now, if that sounds interesting to you, head on over to MarthaBeck.com and find your way.