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- [00:02]
A
You're listening to the B and H photography podcast. For 50 years, B& H has been the professional source for photography, video, audio and more. For your favorite gear, news and reviews, Visit us at b&h.com or download the BH app to your iPhone or Android device. Now here's your host, Derek Fassbender.
- [00:21]
B
Welcome listeners. I'm Derek Fassbender, host of the BH Photography Podcast. Now, photography has plenty of different specialty areas Portraits, sports, fashion, food, still life, to name just a few. In today's show, we're going to investigate a specialty that involves all these subjects while calling for a photographer who is technically precise, emotionally intuitive, and practically invisible all at once. It's a corner of the industry people rarely consider, but one that holds massive influence over our cultural lives. This is the domain of the unit set photographer, the person responsible for the pictures that sell a film or a show before anyone else has seen a frame of it. So grab a soda, some popcorn with extra butter as we pull back the curtain on what it really feels like to toil on set, build trust with talent, and come away with great images under conditions that are rarely in your favor. But before the main attraction, here's some background on each of our guests. Miles Aronowitz is a filmmaker, visual artist and longtime unit stills photographer whose career bridges the worlds of cinema and fine art. For more than 40 years, he worked behind the scenes on over 100 feature films and television series, creating iconic images used in a wide range of movie posters and publicity campaigns. His portraits of actors, artists, poets, musicians and writers have also been published worldwide. As the son of a legendary 1960s music columnist, Miles was introduced to the arts at an early age and grew up among the great poets, musicians, artists and filmmakers his father chronicled in the press. In recent years, Miles has focused increasingly on his own filmmaking and visual projects that combine photography, drawing and music, which often emerge through collaborations with other artists and musicians to explore themes of creativity and nature and storytelling. Cara Howe grew up on Long island and is now based between New York City and the Hudson Valley. Her interest in photography began at age 8 when she was given her first camera. She earned a degree in television production at Boston's Emerson College and then furthered her studies in commercial and advertising photography at the Portfolio center in Atlanta. After working steadily in film for several years, Cara returned to photography where she became known for evocative and dynamic visual storytelling. The co founder and former co owner of Brooklyn Photo Studio and Brooklyn Photos One Night Only art series, Kara currently works primarily as a set Photographer in film and television productions. She's a member of the International Cinematographers Guild, IATSE Local 600 NYWIFT, and can be spotted on movie set locations around the New York metropolitan area and beyond. Miles Aronowitz and Kara Howe, welcome to the show.
- [03:10]
C
Thank you. This is great. Thanks for having us.
- [03:14]
D
Yes, thank you for having us.
- [03:15]
B
It's a pleasure to have you both. As I said before we started rolling today, this has always been a dream of mine. And I'm sure you hear this all the time. How do I get your job? What do you guys exactly do? So I want to start right there. Let's start by defining the role of a unit set photographer. What does this job primarily entail and how does it fit into a larger film or TV production?
- [03:37]
C
To begin with, basically, we're working for the publicity department of the studios. And then we're also working for the marketing departments. And then there's a third leg of that, and that's the art department of the production crew. So there's a lot of different bosses and different things that we have to cover. For publicity. We're doing behind the scenes stills of the director and the actors working together, the cinematographer and all the key department heads. Of course, we do scene shots, which is while they're filming the scenes that are actually in the movie and in the TV shows. And then we also do specials, we call them gallery shoots, where there's a lighting setup. And those are often used for the advertising and marketing. But they're also for general use with publicity. In addition to that, we're usually asked to do plate shots of the sets, which is without crew or people in the sets. And they use these for different things in post production. So that's sort of the rundown for the art department. We do all kinds of shots. Crime scene photos, magazine covers, billboards, posters, fashion spreads, all kinds of things that are key to the story.
- [04:57]
D
One thing that we do that people don't even think of, you're watching a movie and, you know, these two characters are married and these photos play in the set of, say, their home. There's a photo, you know, these two actors aren't married in real life. So sometimes we do a separate photo shoot to put that together. There might be family photos scattered about, or the wedding photo or something like that that plays on the set as well. And you may see it, you may not. Sometimes it's featured, sometimes it's not. So that's also an important part of our job for the art department.
- [05:28]
B
You just asked the question I've been wanting answered for my entire life, Kara. You know, you're watching a movie and. Or in the armoire is a framed photo of, like, a wedding day. And over here you have a picture, and it's like, down by the lake.
- [05:42]
D
Yeah.
- [05:42]
B
And I've always wondered, because I love movie trivia and all the little Easter eggs and all that, is that really a picture of them when they were younger? Are these staged photo shoots that were done?
- [05:54]
D
And sometimes they will ask those actors for permission to. You know, they'll say, can you submit some photos of you when you were younger? Or you had shorter hair or this or that? And they'll put those into the photo. I was working on the set of Raising Canaan, and Tony Danza was one of our characters. He plays a mob boss. And we went to his home, and he has a large family painting on the wall, and it's just, like, big as day behind him. He's sitting in a chair. And he gave us a photo of himself maybe 10, 15 years ago. But I took background actors, had a seamless. Did a photo shoot of these four other people, and we had a younger guy, and they just dropped Tony's head on his head. And then they made a painting from that photo and they put it up on this wall. And I walked into set that day, and I was just like, wow, now that's cool. I helped make that happen, and that's so cool. But that's how these things come about.
- [06:48]
A
Now, is that a totally different type of mini production within the bigger production of being the unit set photographer? By the way, is unit set photographer the vernacular, or is there some other way that you guys colloquial refer to yourselves?
- [07:05]
D
No, Miles, I think, yeah, unit, set photographer.
- [07:08]
C
I mean, there's abbreviations of that, but. Yeah, stills.
- [07:12]
D
Yeah, they call it stills.
- [07:14]
C
To answer your question about whether it's a separate set. Yes. That has to be scheduled into the schedule through the art department. So we get pulled aside at certain times to do that on a separate set. A real crazy meta version of what you just described as going way back. I did a film with Julia Roberts, Sleeping with the Enemy, and I had to do a lot of those kind of portraits of her. And one of them was used in that film. She fakes her death and the body's never found, and there's a portrait of her on an empty casket. And the camera sort of zooms in and fills the screen with that image. And then, I don't know, about two years ago, I got a call about Wanting to use one of my photographs, you know, of Julia Roberts for another film that shows her when she's younger. And they had that photograph. It's hysterical.
- [08:07]
A
That leads to another question. Do you own that?
- [08:10]
C
I didn't own it. I had to tell them, the studio.
- [08:14]
A
But they asked you, okay, yeah, yeah.
- [08:16]
C
I said, I'm happy to get credit for it, but, you know, I don't own it.
- [08:20]
A
And that's typical in terms of ownerships and rights.
- [08:23]
C
Yeah. We're work for hire.
- [08:25]
A
Yeah.
- [08:25]
B
Let's take it back to the beginning because I know we all want to dive in on this topic. But, Miles, you started shooting in the film days, and you were shooting these stills on film back during these analog sets. Can you talk to us about how you actually got into this and what it was like shooting during the film days?
- [08:42]
C
Yeah. I do want to make a distinction, though. You know, to continue with the original questions was that there's a big difference between features and TV series for us, for the crew and for stills. There's a big distinction even in the attitude and protocol that we have to be aware of. But to answer your question, I worked in labs. I did freelance editorial, and then I worked in a couple of museums. I was on staff at the Guggenheim Museum. And a family friend, Brian Hamill, who's a legendary unit still photographer who's retired now, he said, you should get into this business. And he sponsored my application to the union. But I was on staff at the Guggenheim, so I was fine where I was, but I filled out the application. And at that time, this is in the early 80s, the way you get into the union was they actually had a test. And you had to go and do this test with them. But they only scheduled the test every few years. So it was much more difficult to get in then. And I think I moved. And I missed the deadline for the original test that I was supposed to take because they didn't have my correct mailing address. So I had to wait another, like, four or five years before. Wow. Before I could take the test. So I stayed at the Guggenheim for that time and started to take breaks from my job to do some movie work. And my first job was to fill in for Brian Hamill on a Woody Allen film, Which is crazy. You know, it's kind of trial by fire. I worked for two or three weeks on September, which was one of his lesser known films. But it was amazing introduction to the film business. When we were working at Kaufman Astoria Studios, which is a legendary stage in Astoria and on an adjoining Set was another film with Paul Newman. And we had a pool table on our set, and he would come in during our lunch breaks and play pool on the pool set. That was something. Yeah. Later, I was still at the Guggenheim. I kept taking these leaves, and finally they said, no, you can't do that. You have to either stay or go. This was Ghostbusters 2, and it was just a couple of weeks on it, and I did the numbers, and I was going to make about half of my year's salary in two and a half weeks on a film. So I left. I left the Guggenheim. Once you make that commitment, you're there.
- [11:16]
B
The rest is history.
- [11:18]
C
Yeah, kind of.
- [11:23]
B
Kara, what about you? I mean, you started taking photos as a child. You studied TV production, commercial photography, advertising in college. How did your career path follow with this?
- [11:33]
D
Yeah, my career path was kind of all over the place, but it was always photography. I always loved photography. I got a camera at a very young age. I started taking photos in high school. I learned how to use a manual camera, developing film and making prints in the darkroom. And that started it for me. I borrowed my father's Canon AE1 and never gave it back. So I just never looked back after that. Then I went to Emerson College and studied primarily television production, a little bit of film. I fell in love with film, but I always loved photography. And I honestly didn't know how to make a living as a photographer. I thought, well, this will just kind of be a hobby I have for the rest of my life. And because I love photography so much, my mother encouraged me to, you know, be a camera operator. Why don't you get a job as a camera operator? That seems to be a good trade, you know, that sort of thinking. So that's why I studied television production. And then after that I moved to LA to work in TV and film and, you know, started as a pa, as you do, and working on some interesting film sets. I was kind of like, on these B horror films, making very little money, you, you know, running around, fetching coffee, delivering scripts, that kind of thing. But it wasn't until a few years later that I thought, you know, I really want to be a photographer. And at this point, I should back up. While I was living and working in la, I made friends with some students at afi and they introduced me to film sets. I would work on those student films, and I learned how to load film and thread a camera and download in a dark room and, you know, clap the sticks on set, you know, and learn how to take the notes at the time you sort of wrangled cables to monitor so people can watch what you were shooting. And they encouraged me to get into the union. I didn't know anything about it. So that's where that began.
- [13:37]
A
Well, basically, you know, you're out in la, you're doing PA work, but is it work that you're doing for free for the students at afi? Is that sort of. I did, but volunteer kind of.
- [13:48]
D
That actually then led me to. When I was a pa, I started coordinating commercials for a small group that was working for this commercial company in la. There were a small group of guys that were making these stop motion, like claymation commercial spots. And the director, slash lead animator, he brought over an old 35 millimeter Mitchell camera from England and that's what we were shooting on. So he taught me how to operate that camera and literally I did everything. I went to the lab, I dropped it off, I picked it up the next day. Like we just, you know, got it to the Daily's house to the post production sessions. And these gentlemen were so kind as to write me recommendations to get into the union. So from the AFI friends to these production people in animation, that's how I got into the union and started as a film loader and really loved it and decided, you know, I still had this nagging of like, I want to be a photographer. How can I be a photographer? What do you do? How do you make a living? And that's when I went to the Portfolio center and I thought the only way to make a living as a photographer was to be in the commercial advertising world. So I studied there for two years. I returned back to New York City and that's where I started shooting product photography and then eventually into fashion. Everything went digital then.
- [15:13]
A
That's so roundabout.
- [15:14]
D
So roundabout.
- [15:15]
A
So hold on, when you were working on any of this stuff in la, any of these sets, did you ever see the still photographers and.
- [15:23]
D
No, I was in Atlanta studying, you know, advertising, commercial stuff, shooting a lot of still life, which is how I started. It wasn't my passion, but it was photography. While I was there, I did. I reached out to the union and they got me in touch with David James, who is a legendary set photographer. He was down in Savannah shooting Bagger Vance. What was that movie?
- [15:48]
B
Legend of Bagger Vance.
- [15:49]
D
Thank you. The Legend of Bagger Vance. And he needed an extra assistant for a photo shoot to do a prop still with Matt Damon. So I drove down there for the day and I assisted him. And it was so exciting. It just, you Know, setting up all these strobes and having a room full of background extras. There were probably like 50 of them dressed in military uniforms from that time period. And Matt Damon standing in front of me, and David's like, just, you know, stand really close to him and hold this fill card here. And I was just so nervous. I was like, less than a foot away from him. And, yeah, it was very exciting. And that's when I thought, oh, this is a job.
- [16:28]
B
This is it.
- [16:29]
D
This is it.
- [16:30]
A
I didn't realize that you did everything before then.
- [16:33]
D
I did everything before then. I was part of E Commerce. Boom. I shot for, you know, polo.com when they started their site, and then I shot for J. Crew when they started their site, and. And Burberry and Barney's and Sax, and I did all of that for. For years.
- [16:49]
E
Yeah.
- [16:50]
D
And that's when I first started making a living as a photographer.
- [16:55]
B
What is your role as far as being a photographer, and how would you define it? I mean, I didn't realize the depth of what you guys do. I didn't realize that you're doing so much for the marketing of these productions. And in my head, it was like you guys are just floating anonymously unseen. But there's a lot of staged shoots for this. So is it more of, like, a journalistic, documentarian approach? Is it more of a commercial, editorial type of photographer? How does it split up?
- [17:21]
C
Well, it's both. It's all of that, really. Okay, so there was a feature film I did. It's not that well known, but it was called Paparazzi. And so you can imagine that it's about a photographer and about a movie star. And I ended up shooting everything for them and coaching the actors and helping the lighting crew and the props crew. It was a crazy experience that was kind of rare. I think it's the only film that I got to work on that was specifically about photography. But I did the ad campaigns for the movie star that's in it, and they do billboards, and then there's all of the photography that is used in the film that was supposed to be taken by the various paparazzi. And it was a very photography heavy assignment, but it's all of those things. You wear so many different hats. It's wonderful when you get to do that. And part of that also the joy that I get from working in different genres of film. You know, I've done sports films, I've done disaster films and action films and rom coms, and all of these things have different requirements. And Some of them are amazing locations. So it's quite an amazing and diverse career.
- [18:44]
A
Must be cool. You know, a couple of weeks ago we were talking about this episode and prepping for it, and I think Derek was saying, in some ways it's a dream job for a photographer because you have on some sets a million dollars worth of lights already set up for you. Perfect looking people, by the way. And so a lot of that stuff elevates when you're doing that kind of BTS or the sort of simultaneous shooting of the actual scenes that are being shot by the camera department. Must be a lot of fun. Yeah, I mean, I worked on sets before the sound person and, you know, the whole sort of traveling circus kind of aspect of the film life and set life, I guess, is also something that I found really interesting and kind of fascinating too.
- [19:33]
C
So it sound romantic. It's not.
- [19:37]
A
I mean, the first five years were okay. After that there was a drop off.
- [19:42]
D
But I do want to add, Miles, that I mean, I believe that we're in the very unique position of. Of being documentarians on these film sets. And we're capturing stills that document cinema history. So sometimes it feels like a job because you feel like you're a marketing machine. But sometimes I just have to step back and go, wow, this is really cool. Like, look where you are. Look at the people around you. Look at these famous actors or director. You're truly capturing a moment in a movie.
- [20:16]
A
You still have those moments. You're not totally cynical like Miles.
- [20:20]
D
Even currently, I work a lot in television and I work on a very dark and gritty show. But I still go to work excited some days and I'm just like, it's just cool that we get to do this and we get to be here and we get to capture all this make believe. And you know, my show has a lot of stunts. There's a lot of blood and squibs. There's a guy who pushes a remote and blood shoots out of the actor's shirt. And it's just. You just like, all right, this is cool. This is fun. So, yeah.
- [20:51]
B
So I've always been interested in how it affects you guys when you watch a movie. Like you've seen it made from behind the scenes, you know, like from an actor's point of view. We have the benefit of just seeing the movie. We see the finished product. And I've always wondered how the people who are on the sets, how the finished product looks to them after they've seen everything while it was being made.
- [21:12]
C
Okay. There's a difference between the things that you've worked on yourself and the things that you didn't work on. You know, I'm looking at the couch that I'm hiding underneath during that scene. You know what I was thinking?
- [21:25]
D
That's exactly what I was thinking when he asked the question.
- [21:29]
C
So you get a little distracted by that. But, you know, I love film and storytelling and if I don't get drawn into the story, it's. It's a crime. I just love movies. And if there is a sort of a stylistic thing that prevents you from taking that leap of imagination or some kind of gaffe that looks like a mistake, that catches my eye, that stops me a little bit. But mostly I just don't get into it. Yeah. How about you, Cara?
- [22:03]
D
Yeah, same. Same thing. Yeah. If I'm watching something I worked on, you know, I'm always curious to see if the story sells. You know, if the scene sells, that is cool. If I'm distracted by something else, then yeah, it's not hitting. But I mean, it's the love of getting lost in a movie or television series. I try not to think about how the sausage was made.
- [22:28]
E
So earlier Miles had mentioned that there's a big difference between features and movies and TV series and working for those two facets of the industry. Can you go into that a little further in terms of how the structure is different?
- [22:45]
C
Sure, I'll jump in. One thing is the culture. When you're hired on a feature film, you're expected to be there all the time. Unless you're on your deathbed, you can't call in sick, you just have to be there. I mean, it's a job, but it feels a little bit more like something that you have no choice, you have to go. And that segues into some of the difficult things about features and tv, which is the working conditions. And I know this has been something that's been out in the world. People die driving home from work because they were working for 20 hours and couldn't make it home. That shouldn't happen. And that's part of the culture of moviemaking in this country. It's not like that in other countries. And I've. And I have had the opportunity to work on a film in Eastern Europe. And it's not like that.
- [23:46]
A
Only 12 hour days there.
- [23:47]
C
Well, you know, some countries have even stricter rules. You know, I think France is even stricter than that. So as a still photographer in particular, you can't call someone to cover for you. You're not allowed to do that. It's just an unspoken thing, but, well,
- [24:03]
A
you can do it, but your reputation will be.
- [24:06]
C
You just can't do it.
- [24:07]
A
Right.
- [24:07]
D
I know for me, the actors, they're familiar with you, they're used to seeing you there with a camera and they're more comfortable with you than having another strange person come in just for a day. It's a little jarring to them sometimes.
- [24:21]
A
And by the way, Miles, get back to this idea of, you know, 18 hour days and the hazards of that. You know, my impression from working in the film industry was that the set photographers, they sort of operated on their own schedule to some degree. There was some amount of autonomy that I didn't have as a crew person, which I sort of envied. I looked at them as being lucky to sort of show up when they wanted and hang out with like the stars. And is any of that true or is that just me being a weirdo?
- [24:50]
C
No, you're not a weirdo. That's another one of the differences between features and television. The way the union has been able to structure our positions on the major features, they distinguish all these things. Now on major features, you're part of the crew, so your call and wrap times is the same as the camera crew. So you're there all the time. There's a little bit of wiggle room for different reasons, but on features, you're there the whole time you're embedded. On TV shows, the rules are different and generally they'll just do eight hour days unless there's some unusual circumstance that they want to have you there for more than that. And also they don't have you on every day and you can have people cover for you. And the reason for that is that since you're not on the regular schedule, they decide when you're going to work. When the schedule for each episode comes out, they examine the episode and they decide which days were the primary days that they want stills for. And so they can't demand that you're on call all the time. So from the time that they ask you to schedule these three days, they have to ask you if you're available. And so you can say, yes, I'm available, but not that day. And that's when Kara's coming in. Because it's a Friday night, right?
- [26:18]
D
Yes, very true, Miles. I, I can. Yeah, Miles. Miles doesn't like to work Friday nights.
- [26:29]
C
Well, that's the big secret, you know. Okay.
- [26:34]
D
This is how we started working together.
- [26:37]
C
One of the ways, one of the ways.
- [26:41]
A
Saturday nights too.
- [26:42]
D
Well, they Call them Fridays. Do you want to explain that, Miles?
- [26:45]
C
Yeah, Fraterday. Okay, so there's no such thing as a routine schedule. Sometimes there's a studio show that does stick to 8:12 hours at the same time every day, but they don't. This is not normal and unheard of. It's. Yeah, it's, it's impossible. So it's one of those working conditions that's, that's really untenable. You start your week on Monday morning at 7am Maybe, and you work for 12 or 13 hours. I'm talking about in general, the, you know, the whole crew.
- [27:23]
A
And by the way, we're talking about TV shows.
- [27:25]
C
Well, no, no, no, that's true.
- [27:27]
D
Film.
- [27:27]
C
Not, not necessarily film too, sometimes.
- [27:30]
A
Okay. This is a general American style of production for, you know, people to watch stuff on, on their TVs or movie screens. This is how it works. Yeah. And so Monday morning, 7am and you
- [27:44]
C
work 12 to 14 hours. And then because there are some union rules, more for the actors than the crew where they need. They're supposed to have arrest time and they can't come back for another eight hours or 10 hours, whatever it is. And so you start Tuesday at 10am because of that turnaround issue. And this continues throughout the week until Friday, which is basically a night call. It's 4 o' clock or 5 o'. Clock. You work till after dawn on Saturday and then you start over again at the 7am call on Monday. So you don't have two days off. And it's, it's a tough schedule. It's really tough.
- [28:37]
D
And when you're a day player, like for me working primarily in television, sure. You're not scheduled every day for that one particular show. Say you're working Monday, Tuesday, Friday. Well, you could pick up other work Wednesday and Thursday, but say Tuesday, you finish work at midnight, but the call for the show that you picked up for Wednesday starts at 6:00am I mean, I don't have a turnaround time in television work.
- [29:03]
C
A lot of it is day playing, but it's close to that. Just like I was describing, you don't really know what your days are until the episode schedule comes out. And even that can change unexpectedly.
- [29:16]
A
You know, working on TV shows and then asking you to come in for certain days, are they sort of like highlighting special scenes that they want you to get, like really cool locations or something? Like, how do they prioritize when they want still photographers to come on and when you can have a day off?
- [29:35]
C
Exactly what you were imagining. You know, it's locations, it's which actors are going to be there, which guest actors are going to be there, how many of the primary actors are going to be, you know, in specific scenes as well. I gave up trying to guess because there were times when it didn't make sense to me and it's not up to me to complain or draw attention to it. On the other hand, what I just said does not hold true. When you're on set and you see something that doesn't look right, you say something, you know, you don't hold back, you do say something. For example, an actor forgets to take his glasses off when he's not supposed to have them on, you know, or continuity, those kind of things are appreciated very much and. Or there's a soda bottle on the set in the background that's not supposed to be there. I'm talking about continuity. But also there are performance related things like that. And then of course, safety issues. You have to say something about anything that looks unsafe. But when it comes to deciding which day they're going to bring you in,
- [30:46]
A
I do you have any lead time as to when that's going to happen? Or are you at sort of the beck and call of the production on these long term shoots?
- [30:55]
D
So on the show that I'm working with, I work with a photo editor who like Miles was explaining, they go through the script, they pick out the important scenes and what days that those scenes will fit into. And one restriction is budget. They might only have a budget to send a photographer for say six or seven days out of a 12 day episode shoot. So that dictates it as well. So then you'll know your schedule. Say it takes about two and a half weeks to film an episode. She will look through that. She or he, the photo editor, they'll look through that, they'll pick the dates, they'll ask you to hold those dates. Are you available? Can you hold these dates? Great. But I tend to keep the other dates open because especially this time of year with weather so unpredictable and we do shoot on location a lot. So for shooting a scene in the evening out on the street and we've been hindered by a couple of snowstorms this winter, your schedule then shifts dramatically and then suddenly you're just, oh wait, I planned this for that day, but now this scene got moved to that day and now I have to work that day. So it kind of takes over your life.
- [32:07]
A
Now here's another question I have from insider track kind of question. I've always been curious about look, as a crew member, I get a call sheet. I also get the sides, which are for those in our audience land. Sides are just the portion of the script that we're shooting that day, and those are basically like task completion lists that we as the crew have to finish before we can go home. But for the stills photographers, I was curious, do you have an actual task completion list that's equivalent to, like, having the sides or do you know when you've got, what, coverage of that particular set or location and you can chill
- [32:49]
D
for a little bit? Yeah, I do.
- [32:51]
A
Is that how it works?
- [32:52]
D
I get notes from the photo editor saying, you know, this is a scene that I feel is important and this is why. And this is what I would like you to capture or how I would like you to capture it. Like, this is a plot spoiler. So let's not show this. Let's tend to just show that, you know, and they'll use it on social media as, like, a teaser, you know, to get fans interested, oh, what's happening here? You know, sort of thing. So, yeah, I do. I work with a great photo editor currently at Stars, and she gives me very detailed, specific notes of what she's looking for for marketing, for publicity.
- [33:28]
A
Now, that's not always the case, though, Miles. Right. Like that there's a photo editor who has a good sort of running list in their head or on their computer about what they want you to get. Right. Sometimes you have to sort of use your instincts to try to finish these days off in a way that makes sense for yourself and for the production.
- [33:45]
C
Yes, of course, in the feature world, they expect you to know what you're doing and you're covering everything anyway. And then there are certain things that they also expect that you're not going to cover that are just scenes of extras that are incidental and not primary to the storytelling. But you're using your eye and your brain. So if there is something iconic about the lighting of it and. Or it's the house from Psycho, you make judgment calls. Definitely.
- [34:14]
A
Yeah. And by the way, for both of you, were there shots that you knew? Like, as soon as you got that shot, you're like, man, that is going to be a stunner. Like, I got something special there. Or do you get surprised by the stuff that sort of gets treated as rarities after the fact? You're like, wow, I didn't realize that that would be such a hit, but I guess they liked it.
- [34:38]
D
I think the main goal of documenting a scene is you need to create that one still, that's going to tell a story of what's going on here. So there are times where I'm like, yeah, I got it. That tells the story. This photo includes this actor and this is in the background and that prop is there. And yeah, there are times where I'm just like, yep, that's the one they're going to use, that one. And then, yeah, you get surprised sometimes where you're like, they use that. Why? Okay.
- [35:10]
C
There's a part of, you know, like any photographer and this, this is one of the joys of no matter what. If you feel like you've gotten into the zone, it's indescribable, you know, the zone of getting incredible material. That's the joy of, of doing this job. And the reward.
- [35:27]
D
Yeah, capturing a performance is. Is also you know, just kind of like the stars aligned, you know, the lighting, the performance. You've got the right lens, you're in the right spot. You know, those are the magic moments.
- [35:41]
E
So, Kara, you were talking about the relationship you had with the photo editor. And I'm assuming the photo editor is not on set, is that correct?
- [35:50]
D
Correct. The photo editor that I've been collaborating with the last few years, she's in Los Angeles.
- [35:56]
E
Yeah.
- [35:57]
D
So, yeah, they are not on set.
- [35:59]
E
What about the relationships with other members of the crew? Like from the director and the DP to other crew members, are they. Especially the director and the dp, are they just focused so much on what they're doing that you don't interact with them or what are those relationships like?
- [36:19]
D
It's really different depending on the project. For television, no, you don't interact with them too much. You let them do their thing. And there are so many other important, helpful people on set that help you accomplish what you need to get that day. And you know, I always say that assistant directors, they are your friends because it's their set, they created the schedule. Every moment is spoken for. TV is very fast paced movie making. You're taking your time, you know, you're really finessing it. TV is just. They rehearse a lot before they even get there. So when they get there, it's like they're on. That's sort of the name of the game. So everyone is important. You always introduce yourself to the first assistant director because like I said, it's their circus. They are the circus master. And then the other assistants, you know, they're helping you. Either if you need to pull an actor aside, you want to make friends with the first team PA whose Job is it to corral the actors, keep them around, get them from point A to B and keep an eye on them. You want to make friends with them. You want to make friends with costumes and hair and makeup to make sure if you do pull an actor aside that they look good and they're wearing the right things. And same with props. Yeah, everyone's important. I mean, you know, the electricians and the grips. Like, you might need a little extra light. So make friends with them or talk to the gaffer about the set. If there's something you need help with, you say, listen, I've got to capture this. So maybe when we're done with the scene, if you keep the lights on for a second, maybe just turn it up a little bit. I need to shoot a plate or something. Yeah, everyone's important. Everyone has an important role.
- [37:59]
C
I agree with everything that you've said, Kara. It's for sure. I mean, the whole crew to establish the trust that you need the. They'll help you. One of the great things about being a still photographer on a set is you're basically observing everything. I think of it as a learning experience every day, and you don't end up talking that much with the director. I mean, I had a little story about an interview with Martin Brest for Scent of a Woman, and I was on another film in Boston and came back to New York because my son was going to be born. And I took a little break. And while I was in New York for that week, I was able to get an interview for that job. So my wife went into labor, but it was going to be a long one. I mean, she already had a false labor, and she said, just go, just go. So I went to this interview while my wife was in labor, which is ridiculous, but it was the funniest interview that you can imagine. He got word of it because I told the office it was exact opposite role playing here. So he was like, don't let me keep you. And I luckily got the job too, but I think that was the last time I talked to him. So you don't have a lot of conversations with the director. Depends on what you know. They're all different.
- [39:22]
E
Is an interview before a job common?
- [39:26]
C
Yeah.
- [39:26]
A
Interesting.
- [39:27]
B
What kind of things are they asking in an interview?
- [39:29]
C
I didn't have a lot of those kinds of situations. It was often, you know, a producer, someone from the studio, from publicity that tried to get you hired. I mean, I've seen situations where 2nd AD got me hired. I mean, you never know. You never know who's really going to be able to pull the strings. You know, actors obviously have a say as well. But to get back to the question about crew, back in pre mirrorless camera days, it was the sound department that you had to be really tight with because you had these blimps, these monster cages. They're boxes that are lined with foam and lead, actually, and they're heavy and annoying and they're noisy because you had a motorized camera in there, too.
- [40:14]
A
Well, the blimps stopped the noise, basically.
- [40:17]
C
They didn't do a good job. That's what I'm saying.
- [40:22]
A
I mean, they did. So it was better to have it than not. And I understand what you're saying, because I would see these guys look plugging these. I mean, this is like a 10 pound extra leaded thing that goes around a full digital slr.
- [40:36]
B
Hold that thought, Mike. This sounds like something I want to dive into more. So let's take a break, sit down, relax. If you're already sitting, stand up, stretch. And when we come back, we're going to delve more into the intricate world of set photography for TV and film productions with Miles Aronowitz and Kara Howe.
- [40:56]
A
We hope you're enjoying this edition of the BNH Photography podcast. The best way to support the show is by subscribing on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. For links to gear and more information on today's guests, check out the show notes on your podcast app or visit our homepage on the B and H Explorer website. And now back to the show.
- [41:20]
B
And we're back with Miles Aronowitz and Kara Howe. Now, before the break, we were talking about important relationships between various crew members. And Miles, you and Mike brought up the old days when you had to make pictures using these boxes lined with lead and all this stuff. And for you guys, it's something that was so important because you got to be quiet on set. Blimps.
- [41:41]
C
Yeah, yeah, the blimps.
- [41:42]
A
I would feel bad for the set photographers and sometimes I'd be like, look, there's no dialogue here. If I was booming, I would confirm it with the production sound guy and we'd let you just take a load off for a little bit.
- [41:55]
C
Well, I would.
- [41:56]
A
And then. And then mirrorless cameras came along and that changed the game somewhat, I think.
- [42:00]
C
Yeah, well, you kind of skipped one thing. Like with the film cameras, they were really loud. And then when we moved to DSLRs, they're a little bit quieter than the film cameras, but they were still in the blimps. But the mirrorless, it was a big game changer, really big. One of the things that we were just talking about, these other crew members besides the sound department, the focus puller was a big one. In pre digital days, especially now they're using what they call a preston. It's a remote device that allows the focus puller on the movie camera to follow focus during the shot. And before they had those, the focus puller had to stand next to the camera and physically focus the lens, which takes up the primary spot for a still photographer. So you had to get really tight with the operator and the focus puller in those days. And now the. The focus puller is using a remote with his own monitor and, like a hood over his head in another room, which is kind of crazy, but this is part of the world that we're in. So now it becomes the dolly grip and the camera operator that are at the camera. And you have to have a really close relationship with them and find the trust that you need with these guys. There was a camera operator, a dear friend. His name is Ken Ferris, who I worked with on many feature films, including Scent of a Woman. And I just wanted to call him out that he passed away this morning.
- [43:33]
A
He's a really sorry to hear that
- [43:35]
C
really special man that shared that intimate space and that surrounds the camera. And he shared his heart, too. He's a really beloved camera operator, and he had a long career.
- [43:46]
A
The emotion that I'm hearing from your voice, it speaks to the fact that these are the most integrated groups of people all pulling in one direction to, like, finish a giant, incredible project. And all compressed into, like, you know, two months perhaps of work. You get extremely close emotionally with your comrades, your brothers and sisters in arms on these projects, from my experience. So I can hear that in your voice there.
- [44:12]
C
Well, the cruise, Generally you have 100 people, and you have to, you know, have an easy way with all of them. And it's not easy to accomplish that, but each photographer has their own style. My secret superpowers as a still photographer are stealth, basically, and things that help with that. You have to wear clothes that don't distract the eye. You know, wear black, show blacks, show black. You have to learn to see behind you and stay out of the way.
- [44:42]
D
Yeah, that's the biggest thing.
- [44:43]
A
A question I have for both of you. This is something that you might not have an easy answer, but I'm just really curious about. You know, like when you go to USC and you graduate and you have a degree in cinematography, you know, you've gone through a. When it comes to framing, watching tons and tons of movies. We've all watched movies. But when it comes to what you want as a still photographer in your frame, you know, how do you sort of get a handle on that? Like, there's not this Rolodex of mental information about what these shots look like. And how do you learn to know what to shoot and how to frame what and. And all that stuff. There isn't as clear a guidebook as there is to the people who are in the camera department proper.
- [45:30]
D
I mean, part of your job first is I look at the monitors a lot. I look at their settings, I look at the color temperature, and I try to mimic that, but then kind of put my own spin on it. Or, you know, the other thing is, you know, Miles was talking about how closely we all work. I mean, like, physically we're all standing around this camera and it's a very small footprint. And it's you and the operator, and there's a dolly and a dolly grip and there's a boom operator. And sometimes you see something, but you just can't get into that spot. So that's when you really have to get creative in order to get your shot and to get that spot and to make it look good, you know, your composition, I guess.
- [46:10]
A
You know, to further piggyback on that question, there's. For instance, I remember when, like, some of these high resolution 4K cameras were released and I was working on set and I would ask the camera department, like, you know, during break time, I was like, look, at some point, are you just gonna take frame grabs and we're not gonna use as many still photographers. And they all said, no, no, it's probably not gonna happen. You know, they're operating in a different headspace. We're not thinking about the same thing. And I guess that's my additional question is how much of this is getting a similar shot as what is on the monitors and how much of this is a meta shot that includes, you know, the gak and all the grip stuff and the crew. Are you thinking in terms of these two types of scenes at all times and trying to get both and moving back and forth between the two?
- [47:01]
D
Yeah, I do. I mean, I think it's all of it. Yeah, it's all of it. And then, Miles, you could probably speak to this on a movie set. I feel like it's a bit different.
- [47:10]
C
It's very similar, you know. Yes, you have to cover it all. It also depends on the situation because, like, if you're on a set, whether it's a practical set, which means it's a real place, or a movie studio set, which is something that they've created, they inevitably end up with a camera in the corner. And you know, you have to be a contortionist to get physically in there. I mean, like I said before about the dolly grip, they won't have it if they don't trust you.
- [47:39]
D
True. They guard that dolly sometimes.
- [47:42]
C
And the same thing with the camera operator. I'll get right under the lens sometimes. And part of what you're saying about the lighting gear. Yes, the box is seen into all this gear, that the frame is just like on the edge of all of the lighting gear. So there's very little leeway to get a different angle. But we do it, we find ways to do it. We're creative. And actually I've had many situations where the DP is watching me and then he puts another camera there and I lose my spot because I found the spot for him. Yes, this is not unusual. This has happened quite a lot because they know we've got our eye and we know how to find those things.
- [48:23]
E
When you're negotiating these intricate dances with trying to find a spot with all the equipment and motion going on, is there a lot of like non verbal communication? Is it more like the nodding and pointing and whatever, is that more helpful than talking?
- [48:44]
C
It's both. But yes, there is a lot of nonverbal communication. And certainly you're trying to avoid distracting the actors. And some photographers talk to the actors all the time. I don't. I feel that the actors have a hard enough job to do what they do, you know, to act for the camera, which is very complicated if you ever tried to do it. It's very tricky. This whole thing about eyeline, it's true. You don't want to get caught in, in an actor's eyeline unless they're comfortable and you've established a relationship and trust that they don't mind it. And I've had that. And it spoils you because, you know, the other actors don't do that. But part of what I was saying before, the sort of superpowers about stealth is one thing, is stillness. You know, if you can hold perfectly still even in a spot where it's dangerous, you might be okay. It's part of your day of challenges and the testing whether you can stay in a spot that's part of your day. Another thing that I don't know how many other still photographers do this Now, But I don't think I could have kept going with the mirrorless if I didn't train myself to shoot from the screen instead of putting it up to my face. And it takes a lot of practice and a lot of work to get.
- [50:03]
A
You have to unlearn, right?
- [50:06]
C
Yeah. To be able to do that.
- [50:07]
D
I work from the screen a lot in order to get into tight spaces. And I'm small. I'm five two. So sometimes I have to just even, like, lift it over me to kind of get into a spot and just hold still.
- [50:20]
C
Or from another room, even look around the edge of a doorway or a window frame. But there's more to it than that for me, that working from the screen enables you to see what's going on around you. And that is a big, big, big part of the trust that you can gain with the dolly grip. If you're moving, he can see that, you can see what's going on. There's a change of direction. He's reacting to that actor, and I'm reacting to both. And that kind of relationship is invaluable. I mean, it's really important. And in addition to that, the actors themselves. When I first started doing this, they couldn't tell if I was holding a Preston or what I was doing. I was just looking at my camera, looking at it down or up or whatever.
- [51:07]
D
Yeah, that's very helpful.
- [51:09]
C
And so you don't have this target on you. When you put a camera up to your face, they know somebody's trying to take a picture of them. So that's that classic target that you get.
- [51:19]
D
I use that a lot. I use the back of the screen. They don't know, and it won't distract them. In a scene, when you put a camera to your eye, that signals right there you're taking a photo. If you're holding it down, you know, around your chest, they don't know. They're not sure. And.
- [51:36]
A
Miles, what are you. Sorry to interrupt, but I'm just curious, what are you referring to that you had to get comfortable with in terms of the screen? Is that in terms of framing?
- [51:46]
C
Oh, yeah. Just feeling secure that it's in focus, that it's framed right. That it's not at a funny angle. And it is.
- [51:54]
E
How long did that take?
- [51:55]
A
Yeah, because I still have a. I can never. I'm never comfortable looking at the screen. I always have to bring the viewfinder up because I just feel like those shots that I do from the hip like that or from the screen always have to be edited. Heavily in after the fact. To get the framing back, you have
- [52:15]
C
to just do it a lot. That's what we do.
- [52:17]
D
Yeah, I rely on the tools in the camera, like the line that shows whether you're balanced or not, that you don't have a weird angle going. That little focus square on a face. You know, when it's green, you're in focus, when it's not, you're not in focus sort of thing. Holding that focus button to hold the focus and follow. You just rely on a lot of that when you're looking at the screen.
- [52:38]
E
So what gear specifically are you shooting with? And when you transition from film to DSLR to mirrorless, did you keep with the same system or did that involve any changes in brand?
- [52:51]
C
I was long time Nikon and I have a lot of equipment from those years which I still have. And I'm glad I have some of it because I'm using some of those old lenses with an adapter for the Sony cameras now and I love the result. It's not autofocus, you have to manually focus, which is being as old as I am used to that. But the first digital camera I got was a Fuji camera that took the Nikon lenses. It was one of the first models. And then later I ended up going with the Sony's. I have three generations of Sony's that I use in different ways.
- [53:32]
E
What are they?
- [53:33]
C
You know, because I'm actually shooting a lot more video these days. The A7s Mark III is the newest primary camera that I have. I have an A9 and I have an older cropped frame. I think it's a 6300 and then other various things that are not Sony.
- [53:51]
B
And Cara, what about you? What are you using? I know there have been some technological advances in camera since you guys have both started and I want to know what you're currently using. Is there anything that has changed in the technology of cameras that you're benefiting from?
- [54:05]
D
Now I'll talk about the Sony cameras I use and how I would love to upgrade to a newer body.
- [54:13]
A
What do you feel like you both are missing from the new stuff?
- [54:16]
D
I think it was one of your questions. I mean, we can get into it now about the possibility of banding with certain lights and shutter speeds. The newer cameras, the Sony A1, that series has the global shutter, which is very helpful to adjust to these new LED lights that create banding. And also I shot on a couple of sets where it was like you're in a club and you have so many different types of lights going. You have strobe lighting, you have these other like stage lights and then the LEDs. And there's so much banding and they say, oh well, we'll slow down your shutter speed to eliminate the banding. But I had a scene where these girls were singing and dancing. Now they're all blurred. So the global shutter is fantastic in combating that issue.
- [55:03]
B
Kyra and Miles, I had a question about when you're taking images on set during a production, is there any thought as to framing it the same way? Similar depth of field as the shot that they're getting for the movie or the production? Or are you on a completely different creative plane and not worrying about what their shot looks like and just going for your own unique take?
- [55:25]
D
I'm kind of going for my own unique take depending on the scene and what story I'm trying to capture. So I might have a different depth of field just to pull that character out of the scene to really focus on them. Or the opposite of my depth of field where I'm including everything because I want you to see the environment that this character's in. That all depends on the story that I'm trying to tell.
- [55:50]
A
What lenses are you usually working with?
- [55:53]
D
My go tos are so I'll carry two bodies on me because you're on set and you can't keep running back to your case after every take to change a lens. So I do rely on the zooms a lot and I pretty much cover it all. I use a 28 to 70 on one body and then I'll use a 70 to 200 on the other. And then once I feel like I've captured what I need, then I can get creative and maybe switch to a prime. Or if the scene is really, really dark, then I may just shoot the scene with a prime because I can go down to F2 or 1.8 or something to really open up.
- [56:34]
A
Miles, Similar?
- [56:35]
C
Yeah, a little different. I shoot primes and I'll use a zoom for an exterior day. I like shooting mostly wide open and
- [56:44]
A
you know, with great bokeh 35, 50 or 85.
- [56:48]
C
I have an 80 and a 24. I carry two cameras too, just like Cara and I have the 55 Prime. Those are the primes that I use. And then I would mention some of the old Nikon lenses. There's a 135 F2 which is just gorgeous.
- [57:04]
D
Yeah, I have a Sony 135 that I lean on a lot. I like that one.
- [57:08]
A
F2 also. Yeah, I think it Is. Yeah.
- [57:11]
D
Yes.
- [57:12]
C
Yeah.
- [57:12]
A
Let's talk quickly about booking gigs and jobs and feast and famine kind of schedule that at least happens in the early parts of this type of career. From my experience, that sort of settled down somewhat after three or four years of working in the film industry. Is that similar for you guys or do you still have times where it's really like, man. Also, I stopped pre pandemic, so I'm sure that has impacted productions to a large degree as well.
- [57:42]
C
Correct politically. There's all kinds of things that go on. You know, there's strikes and the strikes, work stoppages for those reasons. But I'm sorry I jumped in there, Kara, but I never found that it slowed. That issue of not having work between jobs. That never ends. We're all doing freelance work. It's rarely that I have one job that happens right after another, particularly in the features world. Another thing that's different between TV and features.
- [58:09]
A
And Gary, you mentioned that you're on a TV show right now.
- [58:12]
D
Yes.
- [58:13]
A
Has there been a trend line in your career that's like it used to be more features and for the past decade or so it seems like it's more television shows. Anything that you could sort of get a fix on or is it just random?
- [58:26]
D
In the beginning it was mostly television. And then I would do some independent films, some small films, usually did at least one or two a year that were kind of sprinkled in between. And then I also did a lot of comedy specials. They'll hire still photographers as well to not only do key art, but also to document during the recording.
- [58:44]
A
Like a stand up comedy special. Like.
- [58:47]
D
Yeah, stand up comedy special in a big theater. And you're, you know, you're kind of crawling around in the dark getting different angles, which. That's kind of fun. Pre pandemic, that was kind of the way it went. I kind of bounced around between all of those. But then there was a pandemic and then after the pandemic, I felt like we came back strong. But because of the pandemic, television didn't want to have a lot of different day players. They wanted a full time staff just to keep it small. We had to go through COVID testing and that sort of protocol. So that changed things. But then things started to level off and then the strikes happened. And since then, I have to say, the industry has not bounced back the way it was pre pandemic or even post pandemic.
- [59:33]
A
So how poorly has it not bounced back? Is it roughly 60% of what it once was or even worse, 50%, half.
- [59:42]
D
I think it's more than that, but. Oh, you feel there's not as many productions around and. And productions have moved into different states or some even overseas. So that's really affected the crews here. And not just here, but also the west coast as well.
- [59:56]
A
But you guys are. Are based in the tri state area, right?
- [59:59]
D
Yeah, I'm based in the tri state area. We both are, yes.
- [60:02]
A
Yeah.
- [60:03]
B
Now I'm interested in the post production and the turnaround time for these various assets that you're providing. What does the post production look like and what kind of turnaround time are you working on?
- [60:13]
D
Generally? I will shoot, come home, I will download my images for a television series. They'll give you an hour tacked onto the end of your day to sort of download your imagery, go through your images. Sometimes you have to change the file name. You might need to put some keywording in. Whatever sort of file management that studio assigns you. You do all that. And for the most part nowadays you'll upload to a server, if you will, so that'll go right off to the studios and then they take it from there. You upload raw images Most of the time. Occasionally they'll ask you to create some JPEGs for. I think it's just for viewing instead of going through a ton of raw images. The photo editors may glance through some JPEGs, but yeah, you hand them off like within 24 to 48 hours. It's pretty quick turnaround. Yeah.
- [61:01]
B
Has this changed since the social media era has taken over and the immediacy of wanting teasers and all that? Instinct?
- [61:08]
D
Yeah, yeah, sometimes. I mean, the series I'm working on now is a streaming series, but I would think for when you're working on sort of a primetime series. Yeah, they're going to want that stuff right away to generate interest on social media.
- [61:21]
E
And are you sending in your whole take or are you doing some editing?
- [61:25]
D
No, you do some editing, they'll ask you to kind of edit it down. I work within like 400 to 600 images I'll submit per day.
- [61:35]
B
And how many are you taking in total?
- [61:38]
D
Depends on the day and the scenes, but it could be 800,000 depending. Like sometimes more. If I'm shooting a stunt and I really want to capture it, I'll tend to overshoot. Or if it's something I feel is very important, I rather over cover it and edit it down later.
- [61:56]
B
Now, I'm guessing experience, like with everything else, it leads to a lot of good opportunities. Knowing how to Inspire, anticipate. I mean, we've talked about the relationships you're building, not only with everybody on set, from the directors, producers, sound engineers to actors. And knowing how people work, knowing the nuance. Are there ever situations where you might have one chance to get what you can get? It made me think of when you're talking about doing stunts, and I'm like, well, how many times are they doing these? Over how many takes are people taking?
- [62:25]
D
Oh, yeah, sometimes it's. It's just one and done. And you're like, okay. Oh, I think I got that. But, yeah, that does happen. Yeah. Especially with something like a stunt, something that's rigged, where they're like, okay, we can only set this up so many
- [62:41]
B
times now for people who wanted to get into this. I'm guessing you have to be part of the union to even get a shot. Can you talk to us about what the process is for joining the union? For somebody who says, I want to go and do this, what's the process they have to take?
- [62:56]
C
Well, I did talk about it a little bit earlier. It's very different now. And I actually can answer that. I don't really know the pathway. You know, I generally recommend people that are asking go to the website and there's information there about how to do it. I know that there have been many different pathways to get into the union. I mean, Kara was already in the union as a assistant. And, you know, it's a lot easier to change your classification than it is to just join directly. I had to take a test. They actually had me set up a view camera, which is ridiculous because it had nothing to do with the job.
- [63:35]
D
That's great.
- [63:36]
A
Without dating yourself. What decade was this in the 80s? Okay. No, I'm just curious. And by the way, has it always been local 600 that you guys are a part of?
- [63:47]
C
No, no. New York was Local 644. There was a merger that. 644 and 666, which was Chicago. And for some reason, Chicago and Florida, no rhyme or reason, they were absorbed by Local 600, which is based in Los Angeles. So, yeah, I was actually, for a few years. I was on the executive board earlier on, when it was 6:44, before the merger.
- [64:16]
A
And that was just unit set photographers. Still photographers?
- [64:20]
C
No, no, it's the Cinematographers Guild. We're part of the camera crew.
- [64:23]
A
Yeah, I mean, I guess. Yeah, you're definitely making pictures just like the camera department.
- [64:28]
D
Yeah, we're all camera operators.
- [64:30]
C
Yeah, I realized that we've gotten this Far in our conversation without mentioning the unit publicists that we work with. And in a particular way, they're part of our team, and they're also. They're also in our union, especially on feature films. They play a very critical role as sort of the go between and, you know, the horse whisperer, you know, you. You sometimes. You just can't get that actor to do a little setup without that help. And it's a wonderful collaborative relationship that you do have with the unit publicist. I've had wonderful friendships with them over the years, but I just wanted to, you know, mention that because it's not just part of our job, but it's a really important part, and they help us a lot.
- [65:17]
E
That's somebody who is not on set every day also. Correct.
- [65:23]
D
Sometimes.
- [65:24]
C
A lot of times they are. They're on full time. They're on call. Actually, the union negotiations for that have shifted things a bit for them. But I think they're on call. You know what? I shouldn't speak for them because I'm not sure.
- [65:37]
D
No, but they are. You look on the call sheet, says they're on call, but most of them are on set every day. And they're always working in some capacity. They can help you with the actors, and then they're also a liaison between the studio. They're a big part. They do help you out a lot. They're good support.
- [65:54]
E
So, Miles, you have had a long career, but you recently retired from doing the film work and you're now working on your own personal projects.
- [66:04]
C
Yeah, it was a good run. 40 years and quite a lot of work. And I feel very proud and pleased to have that career that I've accomplished. And now I get to do all of the artwork that I've been putting off and doing more of it full time. And the art is, for me, has always supported my vision and my craft. And I've tried to integrate them in different ways over the years as well. In the introduction, you mentioned about my father. You know, I grew up around my father's friends, incredible people. Allen Ginsberg, Bob Dylan, Miles Davis, George Harrison. These were people that were in my life, too. And then in the mid-60s, when my mother was dying of cancer, a good family friend, Barbara Rubin, took care of us. She was basically my babysitter, my brother and sister and I. And she was this incredible underground New York filmmaker that was part of this movement, this New York movement of Cinema Verte with Shirley Clark and Jonas Mikas. They were all friends, quite an interesting group. And Barbara Rubin put an 8 millimeter movie camera in my hands and my brother and sister and we filmed each other all over the Lower east side and they filmed us. Shirley Clark and Jonas Mikas were all part of that. That and a Polaroid Swinger camera were my first introductions to photography. So I'm coming from a place that kind of background and you know, as a young artist I was always passionate about my two loves of drawing and photography. And over the years I experimented and found ways to combine them and each kind of grew from each other. So I believe I I'm a better photographer because of that. And there were stretches certainly where I had to pause my personal work, but it was always part of my vision. And now I'm a visual storyteller and documentary filmmaker and my work still combines the mediums and disciplines. Photography. I do hand drawn animation with my storytelling and music. It's all to tell a story and in search of a transformative truth.
- [68:18]
E
So what are some of the current projects that you're working on, Miles?
- [68:22]
C
Let's see. I've been working on this Storyteller series which is film and animate the story. Then the animation morphs into the storyteller actually speaking in live action. And I've got a long term project with Lisa Lavart, who's also my wife. And we've been doing this project on the women of the Ramapo Lenape Nation. And it's them sort of embodying myths that are part of their culture. This is an indigenous group that was populating the Tri State area and there's a band of them that live near where I live. I'm in Rockland county and this is like a long term project, maybe 12 years now. I have a short doc on that and we continue to do more work with them and there's going to be a showing at the Patterson Museum this fall. I'm collaborating with this concert pianist, Carolyn Enger, who does live solo piano pieces that are inspired by the planet. She calls the series Resonating Earth. And she's commissioned me to do video pieces that are projected during her performance. They're very meditative and repetitive pieces that she performs live. And actually we have a concert coming up in Nyack in my hometown in April actually.
- [69:43]
E
And you have a website specific to the personal projects and that side of your work.
- [69:50]
C
Womenoftheramapolinapination.com is for the film, but its spelling of Ramapo is R A M A P O U G H. But it's all one word T. And then I have a YouTube channel and a Vimeo channel. YouTube.com MilesAronowitz and vimeo.com MilesAronowitz and Miles,
- [70:13]
E
you do have a website that's dedicated to your film and TV work, correct?
- [70:19]
C
Yeah, it hasn't been updated in a
- [70:22]
E
while, but it is pretty impressive.
- [70:24]
C
Thank you.
- [70:25]
E
And what is that? URL?
- [70:26]
C
It's milesaronowicz.com and Kara, what about you?
- [70:31]
E
Do you have any projects outside of the film project that you're working on?
- [70:36]
D
Well, the television work and the film work. Like Miles said, it keeps you very busy. And then in your free time, you know, you've got your family and your relationships. But I also spend half my time in the Hudson Valley and I recently acquired a studio space in Kingston, New York, and I opened that up. I've always been interested in portraiture, so I opened that to kind of further that work. You know, I needed a spark. I came up with this after the strikes were settled. I probably had a span of like 6 to 7 months where I wasn't working in TV and film and I was shooting in a gallery up in Hudson. I would shoot at art galleries, you know, because they need to photograph their stuff for online auctions and et cetera. You know, there was some cool art and furniture and it was a fun job, but I just needed a creative spark. So I came up with this portrait studio. And of course, as soon as I started it, I was called to Buffalo to work on a project for over two months. So I had to like kind of abandon it. But I'm hoping to get back to it this spring and summer and create some new work for showing. But just to find the time right now to do that stuff.
- [71:45]
E
Yeah, it's a big juggle.
- [71:47]
D
Yeah, it's a big juggle. But then you do have times in your schedule where you have several weeks, sometimes months off. So that's when you do explore that. But yeah, so that's what I'm currently doing. Yeah, Trying to be part of the art community up in the Hudson Valley. So that's been a new thing as well. Going out and meeting people and going to galleries and seeing art and meeting artists.
- [72:06]
E
That's great. And do you have a website that our listeners can check out?
- [72:11]
D
I do have an Instagram. I have Cara Howe. Photo is mostly my unit work. And then the other one is how creative projects and how is my last name? H O W e. That's where my personal projects will be.
- [72:26]
B
This has been a fascinating conversation. I know, Mike, with your history working on set and just my general intrigue this has been a really special treat for us and I want to thank you both for joining us.
- [72:37]
C
Thank you. You. Yeah, thanks.
- [72:39]
D
Thank you.
- [72:39]
C
It's great to be here.
- [72:41]
D
Honored to be a part of it.
- [72:42]
B
The honor is all ours. And to our listeners, thank you so much for joining us today. If you are a fan of the show but are not yet a subscriber, head on over to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, B&H's YouTube channel, or wherever you get your podcasts and click subscribe. You can also find us on the Explorer Blog where we post photos from our guests along with our show. Show Notes. I'm your host, Derek Fosbender. Jill Waterman is our creative producer. Episodes are recorded, mixed and edited by technical producer Mike Weinstein, and our executive producer is Dana Glidden. On behalf of us all, thank you so much for tuning in today.