
Redemption E10 — We’ve made it to the end of our series on redemption, where we’ll look at two last examples of redemption in the New Testament. When Jesus redeemed us from sin and death, did he pay a redemption price, and how does his redemption relate to the Torah’s sacrificial system? In this episode, Jon and Tim explore 1 Peter 1 and Hebrews 9, which connect Jesus’ redemption to sacrifices at the center of Passover and the Day of Atonement.
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Tim
This is our 10th and final episode in our series on the biblical theme of redemption. To redeem is to transfer something back to where it belongs. God designed humanity for life, but we're instead captured by death. And so the entire story of the Bible is, how can God transfer us back into his life, that is, redeem us? In economic terms, this transfer of ownership usually requires a payment. And we even say things like, jesus paid the price for our sins. But in what way is the blood of Jesus a payment? Today we begin in First Peter, who says, it wasn't gold and silver that redeemed us. We're redeemed by the precious blood of the lamb.
John
The point of drawing those two into relationship is not to say that they're similar. The point is to say that they are not similar at all. One is, you pay it off and you give us something of equal value with the precious blood. It's, yeah, this doesn't belong to death, so just hands off.
Tim
We'll also look at Hebrews 9, which is about how Jesus provides the ultimate sacrifice, the tabernacle, and the entire sacrificial system we're pointing to.
John
Sacrifices are only meaningful if they're joined and offered by someone whose life becomes a mirror of what the sacrifice is, which is a posture of repentance and surrender, aligning myself with the desire and will of God. Well, what kind of life did the Messiah lead? It was a life completely aligned with the will of the Father.
Tim
So the life of Jesus can become our life, and when it does, we are redeemed. That is transferred back into the life that God has created us.
John
For Paul will say, I died with the Messiah. I was crucified to the world, and the world's crucified to me. And the life that I'm now living, actually the Son of God living in and through me.
Tim
Today we conclude this journey on the theme of redemption. Thanks for joining us. Here we go. Hey, Tim.
John
Hello, John.
Tim
Hello.
Amy
Hi.
Tim
Okay. Welcome to the real last episode redemption series.
John
That's right. We begin with the last episode thinking that we were having the last episode conversation.
Cody
Yeah.
John
But as always, in the most wonderful way, your questions force us to go deeper than I imagined, which I'm feeling great. I feel like I got clarity from our last conversation, which ended up being kind of like a discussion on redemption in Paul's Letter to the Romans Part two.
Cody
Yeah.
John
So we worked Romans chapter eight and then also brought in the flow of thought from Hebrews chapter two that aligns closely with ideas in Romans 8. Do you want to Try and summarize.
Amy
Where we're at right now.
Tim
I could try. So theme of redemption is about being transferred into rightful possession in the story of the Bible, God is what all of this is for. It's on a journey towards union with God. That's what he created humanity for. And creation. For humanity to rule creation, for it to go on this journey of union with him. The glory of the sons of God ruling over.
John
That's right. Or their perfection, their becoming mature.
Amy
Yeah, yeah.
Tim
And instead, humanity declared independence from union with God and said, we want to go on our own, not realizing that we are now in union with something else.
John
Playing into the hand of the snake.
Amy
Yeah.
Tim
And the power of darkness. The present evil age.
Amy
Yeah.
John
Who is also a creature granted a degree of semi independence that is also like humanity. Yeah. That's also in rebellion against God.
Tim
And in a way, we're kind of tangled up in slavery together to this maybe even more cosmic idea of chaos and death. Redemption is about God repossessing, transferring us back out of slavery into freedom. And so when we look at the Old Testament, we look at the Hebrew Bible, and we see God doing that for Israel out of slavery from Pharaoh into their own land. But we also can look at how God does that for land where an Israelite has been given land to steward by God. It gets dispossessed, and. And then it can be repossessed through the year of jubilee. And that's a redemption.
Amy
Yep. Yeah.
John
And the logic underneath that jubilee redemption is everything belongs to God. Humans are made stewards and temporary overseers.
Tim
And so this whole story of being in wrongful possession, being brought back out into repossession, that's the main idea of redemption. But depending on how you look at it, it really is just a story of rescue.
John
Rescue is someone's in danger. God wants to deliver them out of danger into safety, which is also a.
Tim
Story of liberation, which is also a story of freedom. All of these are different ways to talk about it.
John
Or as we'll see today, a story of purification.
Tim
Okay.
John
Throw another one in there.
Amy
Yeah.
Tim
And so when we looked at the psalms and the prophets, this idea of being redeemed can really be swapped out often for just being rescued or liberated. But at its core, this term means transfer of possession.
Amy
Yeah.
Tim
Being repossessed.
Amy
Yeah.
Cody
Okay.
Tim
With that in mind, we get to Jesus. And all of Israel, during the time of Jesus, is waiting to be repossessed by God. And for them, that meant the Romans and anyone in league with them are gone. They have freedom in the land that's their redemption.
Amy
Yeah.
John
As Zechariah, father of John the baptizer, redemption from our enemies to serve God and worship him without fear.
Cody
Yeah.
Amy
Yep.
Tim
And then on the road to Emmaus with the couple that saw Jesus die, they were just like, well, I guess the redemption didn't happen. And Jesus tells them, actually the redemption has begun. And let me explain it to you. What Jesus saw himself doing in his life and the way he healed people and everything was beginning the redemption, and then he saw going through death and suffering and then rising again was part of this redemption.
John
Yes. And I guess to double click on that, it's that he lived as the faithful human Israelite covenant partner with the Father, who was living a life of returning to God in faithful, loyal, covenant union, that he loved God and loved neighbor as a way of returning, which is the Hebrew word for repent. So a representative repentance on behalf of Israel, that's what he's doing in the wilderness when he trusts the Father instead of turning away, like Israel did in the wilderness. And then the ultimate expression of that surrender and suffering was to die in the place of God's people who have brought death upon themselves.
Tim
And so what he shows is the real enemy. Yes, Rome is an extension of the chaos and death, and so was Herod. But the true enemy to confront was the powers, the power of darkness, the Satan. And to do that, he let Rome kill him to go through and to actually battle with the real enemy.
John
Yes, though he let Rome as the physical, brute, institutional strength that was joined in league with the leaders of his own people. Those are the leaders of his people and the powers of Rome. And underneath them, the power of darkness is what he called it in Luke.
Tim
This is the power that we've enslaved ourselves to. And so he saying, I'm gonna confront that Pharaoh, that power, that's the power that needs to let you go. Okay, so then the question becomes for me, well, in what way does dying and then rising again, I can see how it shows Jesus power over death. Death is not enslaving him in any way. But how does that help us? And why was it necessary for Jesus to do that in order for us to transfer back to God? Because God is more powerful than death, just in and of himself. He doesn't have to go through death to show that he has power over death. And so we talked about how not only are we in slavery to death, but we don't know how to choose otherwise. When we talked about God taking Israel out from Pharaoh, we Just kept saying, like, God didn't owe Pharaoh anything.
Amy
Yes. Yeah.
John
Right.
Tim
He just did it.
Amy
Yeah.
Tim
But Israel had to decide to go.
Amy
Yeah, that's right.
Tim
And they did. And then they kind of grumbled about it later. But if they were just like, well, actually we want to stay here, then what would have God done?
Amy
Yeah.
John
Which is what they eventually do say. It was better in Egypt. In fact, let's kill Moses and go back to Egypt.
Amy
Yeah, yeah.
Tim
So the heart didn't actually change, but they did have enough to, like, get up and go.
Amy
Yeah.
Tim
And so the story of the Bible is like, our hearts are so entangled with this slavery to death and darkness. We don't have it in and of ourselves to respond to the call to get up and to leave.
Amy
Yeah, that's right.
Tim
It's too entangled.
Amy
Yeah.
John
Yes.
Tim
In a way, it's like, what's a God to do?
John
Yes. What a dilemma. A divine dilemma.
Amy
Yeah.
Tim
And what God does is says, you need this change of heart if you.
John
Want to have life.
Tim
If you want to have life. And so what I'm going to do is you are unable to have union with me. You are now in slavery to sin and death. And I can't pull you out of that unless you have a change of heart. So I'm going to come to you and I'm going to have a union with you while you're still in this state, which means I'm going to suffer. I'm going to experience death like you experience death. And I'm going to show you what it looks like to have a repentant heart, a heart that is tuned towards God. And I'm going to show you what it looks like to live not enslaved by death. And that's beautiful. But even by seeing that now. Well, great. That's a vision for it.
Amy
Yeah. Yeah.
Tim
But I still can't do it. And then there's something about then him saying, no, you can't do it, but you can be united with me in my death in some way. You could actually come in, receive my repentance, go through death with me, and then out the other side. That's what I'm calling you to do, is to come and accept that. And that's a gift. Yeah, he calls it a gift.
Amy
Yeah.
John
A grace gift.
Amy
Yeah.
John
Of life, redemption, rescue.
Tim
And so when you think of the story of redemption, Jesus is doing is he's transferring us back to life. And to do that, he comes and he suffers. That suffering leads to him dying. Which to think about that, to think about the life of someone going away, that's the blood, what we would call sacrifice. And we think of that as like the price that God paid. But it's not a price to pay off the devil. It's not a price to pay off death. It's the price that he paid so that we could then have union with him and get through this somehow.
John
Yeah, that's great. So that gets reinforced in a number of ways in this conversation. To wrap up, we'll get to Hebrews and first Peter, but just as a. This is a risk of Paul Part 3. But there are some of the later letters of Paul where he uses the word redemption. And what's interesting is in these earlier ones, you're redeemed from sin and death. Like those are the pharaohs.
Cody
Yeah.
John
Look at this interesting example in Titus where Paul says chapter 2, verse 11. For the grace of God has appeared. It's the gift. That's the word, gift, bringing rescue to all humanity, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desire, to live sensibly, righteously, godly. In the present age, we're looking for the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, the Messiah, Jesus, who gave himself to redeem us from. Now just close your eyes and you expect from the power of sin and death. And that's not what he says. He says to redeem us from every kind of lawlessness.
Tim
Lawlessness.
John
So what he's describing is behavior, patterns of doing what is. It's anomia anti Torah, living out of sync with God's will revealed in the Torah. God's instruction redeeming us from all of the ways that we don't follow God's instruction.
Cody
Yeah.
John
Somehow that's the bad guy, the Pharaoh is our pattern of decision making. Isn't that interesting?
Amy
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John
Because that is sin.
Cody
Yeah.
John
But he's describing of us being redeemed, repossessed out of the possession of our own patterns of decision making.
Cody
Yeah.
John
Isn't that interesting? It's a twist.
Tim
Is it a twist or is it just a synonym of sin?
John
It's a synonym of sin, but I just like it because it kind of makes it more concrete, easier to understand. So he uses something similar idea in Second Timothy where he talks about how the Lord's servant, I.e. followers of Jesus, should not be quarrelsome. They should be kind to all, able to teach, but patient when wronged, with gentleness, correcting anybody who's opposed. Because you never know, God might give that person the gift to repent. That is to turn to God, leading to the knowledge of the truth. And they might come to their senses and escape the trap of the slanderer because they are captive. They've been captured alive. It's the word zograo. Like when you, you know, there's that phrase in like Wild west movies. Take them dead or alive. So this is take alive.
Cody
Okay.
Tim
You're captured, but you're still alive.
Amy
Yeah, yeah.
John
So we've been taken alive by the slanderer to do his desire.
Cody
Yeah.
John
So what it means to be enslaved to the slanderer means you listen to the snake.
Cody
Yeah.
Tim
The snake's desire becomes your desire.
Amy
Yeah.
John
Which then is another way of saying every kind of lawlessness.
Tim
And, you know, a transfer of ownership means a transfer of desire.
John
Go on, do go on.
Tim
Well, what got us dispossessed, saying, not your desire. God.
Amy
Oh, yeah, that's true.
Tim
But my desire.
Amy
Yes. Yeah.
Tim
And then what this seems to be saying is like, yeah, and now you're trapped by that desire. And now that desire and this tangled web of chaos and violence, and you're stuck, and it results in every kind of anti. Torah. You can't listen to the wisdom of God and fulfill it. So at the core of this transfer is realigning desire.
Amy
Yeah.
Tim
Because when you talked about God could snap his fingers and heal your body. God could snap your fingers and give you freedom from debt. He could snap his fingers and give you just all the things.
Amy
Yeah, yeah.
Tim
But he needs that desire to shift. Otherwise you're still enslaved to death.
John
The threat, you're just gonna replay the pattern.
Tim
You're gonna die eventually.
John
Yep, yep, that's totally right.
Tim
And that begins with repentance. And what we've been saying, which is this whole new idea for me, that we actually can't repent.
Amy
Yeah.
Tim
Jesus repented for us.
Amy
Yeah.
Tim
And somehow we can be united in his repentance, which is us repenting.
Amy
Yeah, yeah.
Tim
Our repentance is accepting his repentance.
Amy
Yeah, that's right.
Tim
And then that's at the hook, the hinge of this transfer now into ownership with him again. We're painting the blood on the door and we're saying it's not our blood, but we're going to accept it. And so now we're in this new realm.
John
Okay, great. So what a wonderful transition. I wanted us to glance at the two last places in the New Testament where the word redemption appears, which is in the letter to the Hebrews and then the first letter of Peter. First Peter, written through a scribe, Peter Says later in the letter, I wrote this letter by means of a guy named Sylwanus, which is why it's beautiful Greek, beautiful stylistic, rhetorical Greek. And it's written to a whole network of churches throughout what today we would call the interior of modern day Turkey, Asia Minor and mixed Israelite, non Israelite communities. So he can just sling Hebrew Bible terminology like, just like crazy and assume everybody's tracking, but he's doing it with Greek. And for mostly a non Israeli audience, the letter as a whole is there's some suffering going on, we don't know what, imprisonment, beatings, ah, persecution. Because this is now a cultural religious minority within the dominant Greco Roman world. And they're paying the social cost for being deviants, social deviants. So he's trying to compel them that allegiance to Jesus and what he has to offer is more valuable than anything that your former way of life could ever get you. So that's the basic flow of thought throughout the letter and then right here in this passage. So in chapter one, verse 13, he says, Therefore, with minds that are alert and sober, set your hope on the gift that's going to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is apocalypsed at his coming. Be like obedient children. Don't conform to the bad desires that you had when you used to be ignorant. So he's referring to growing up in Asia Minor, thinking about the whole thought world of having your view of reality governed by the pantheon of Greek and Roman deities. One day they like you, one day they don't. It's a pretty terrifying world to live in. Don't conform to that anymore.
Tim
And this is slavery to death.
John
That's what he's going to call it.
Tim
In just a moment.
John
Just a moment.
Amy
Yeah.
John
Down in verse 17. Because you call on a father who judges every person's work without partiality. You should live out your time as immigrants here in reverent fear. So God's going to hold us accountable without partiality, you're just an immigrant here. He opens the letter saying to the exiles. So viewing our time and existence in this phase of creation as a sojourner, he says, because you know that it wasn't with corruptible things like silver or gold that you were redeemed. And then when he says what you have been redeemed from, it's closely aligned with what Paul just said in Titus. He says, you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you by your ancestors.
Tim
Okay?
John
That's what you're redeemed from. From.
Tim
That's what you're possessed by now.
John
Yeah, you were possessed. Yeah, that's right. So maybe let's just go with that middle part before we talked about silver and gold versus something else. So the pharaoh figure here, you're enslaved to and need to be repossessed.
Tim
Evil desires, an empty way of life handed by your ancestors.
Amy
Yeah.
John
So this is very similar to Paul's. You were redeemed from every kind of lawlessness. He's naming a pattern of behaviors and here a multi generational cultural tradition as like the way to be human.
Cody
Right.
John
It's just so interesting that it's human behavior patterns that become the enslaver. Cause other times it's you're set free from the power of the devil, other times you're set free from death, but here it's you're set free from the way of life that you were raised into, which has underneath it then, well, where does that way of life lead?
Tim
Right. What is the energizing force behind that way of life too?
John
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's a package deal. The fact is you were redeemed from that empty way of life, but it wasn't with money.
Tim
You can't redeem someone from death with money, with money. Death doesn't need your money.
John
Nope. Death will be a shepherd feeds on you and takes you to the grave. You can't bribe that shepherd. So it wasn't with money that you were redeemed from that way of life, but rather with the valuable, the precious blood of the Messiah.
Tim
So the blood being compared to money makes you think of the blood as currency.
Amy
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Tim
And when you start thinking of the blood as currency, it's easy to slip in and go, oh yeah, because death needed to get paid off.
John
That's right. And then you can easily, I think, fall into a way of thinking about the death of Jesus as satisfying the anger of a God who says, well, someone's got to die around here and if it's not going to be you, it's going to be my son. Right. Am I filling that out? Okay, so let's pause, let's notice that when he says it wasn't with corruptible things like silver, gold that you were redeemed, it was with the precious blood. The point of drawing those two into relationship is not to say that they're similar. The point is to say that they are not similar at all. They couldn't be more different. It's not with silver or gold, it's rather with this other thing. In other words, the point of drawing them into relationship is to say that they're fundamentally different.
Cody
Yeah.
Tim
Okay. Because you could say they are maybe fundamentally different in how valuable they are.
John
Oh, okay, sure.
Tim
But there are still two different ways to think about currency.
John
That's right. That's right.
Tim
Are you saying no one's a currency, one's fundamentally different?
John
Yeah. What does valuable blood of a royal priestly representative mean? Because remember, blood is life. The fundamental association with blood is not death as such, but rather is an image of a life. And we know that life is without blemish or defect. It's a blameless life that ought not to die. So we're kind of underneath that story world here, which is why we'll look at Hebrews next. So the blameless life that was led by. By the son of God, the royal priestly Messiah of Israel, on behalf of all humanity, that was the means of God repossessing.
Tim
And I'm now can identify with that life. That blood can cover the door of my house. It can cover me. And when death comes, it's not that he's like, oh, okay, I'm going to take that instead of. He goes, oh, I can't touch this.
Amy
Yeah, there you go.
Tim
Because this is not mine.
Amy
Yeah.
Tim
This is blameless life. And if you're in that house, I can't go in.
Amy
Yep.
Tim
You're not paying death off. You're holding death back.
Amy
Yeah.
John
You're saying this life doesn't belong to you. Here's a life that doesn't belong to you.
Amy
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
John
So by saying lamb, he's evoking the Passover. Yeah, because day of atonement, for example, was with goats. And the other atoning sacrifices could be lamb rams or goats or bulls or cows.
Amy
Yeah.
John
So he's evoking Passover, particularly by talking about a lamb without blemish. That's right out of Exodus 12. So I'm just saying out loud, why your mind went to Passover just a moment ago with the blood on the house. But the point is that the precious blood of the Messiah that is blameless didn't belong to death. But yet the Messiah willingly surrendered his life to death on behalf of those who actually do rightfully belong to death.
Tim
Yeah, you said it's fundamentally different. You can imagine the Israelite standing at the door. The darkness is coming, the destroyer. And then he says, here, take these coins.
Amy
Oh, yeah, okay. Wow.
John
Good, good.
Tim
And the destroyer would be like, I don't want your coins. Yeah, don't care about coins. Like I'm just taking what is mine, which is people who are enslaved to me. And you're all coming with me. There's no amount of coins.
John
Yep.
Amy
Yeah.
Tim
But the blood of the lamb, Blameless lamb. And I love the picture of then the destroyer coming and going. I can't come in.
Amy
Yep. Yeah.
Tim
This doesn't belong to me. This blood does not belong to me. And people in this house now don't belong to me.
John
That's great. Thank you for that. In other words, the blood is functioning in the same slot as the thing that redeems the means by which the repossessing takes place.
Tim
Right.
John
But the way that it does it is fundamentally different.
Tim
Fundamentally different.
John
One is you pay it off and you give us something of equal value with the precious blood. It's. Yeah. This doesn't belong to Death, so just hands off.
Cody
Yeah.
John
I'm taking back what.
Tim
I'm taking back what's mine.
John
What's mine. And what is mine is the thing that I love, which is why I'm taking it back.
Tim
And what's mine is the people who will go into the house.
Amy
Yeah, that's right.
Tim
And paint the blood on the door.
John
That's right.
Tim
That's what's mine.
Amy
Yeah. Yeah.
Tim
That's cool.
John
That is cool. Thank you for that little parable. That was just a good meditation on this passage in light of Passover and trying to make it real concrete. No, that's it. Okay. So let's get cosmic.
Tim
That wasn't cosmic.
John
So the precious blood of the Messiah, who was a lamb without blemish or defect. You know what? That lamb was chosen before the world was ever created.
Tim
Okay.
John
But was apocalypsed in these last days.
Tim
For your sake, Like God saw this coming.
John
This has been taken two completely different directions in the course of Christian theology. But what seems clear is that it was always a part of the divine plan that God would create and join God's own self into union with that creation in the person of the eternal Son.
Tim
Like death and violence is not a surprise to God.
Amy
Yeah.
John
And then, you know, it's funny. I was introduced to these two words, I think somewhere within the first year of following Jesus. I had no framework for them. Supralapsarian and infra. Lapsarian.
Amy
Wow.
Cody
Yeah.
Tim
You hung out with different people that I was hanging out with.
John
No, this is with a mentor of both yours and mine.
Tim
Oh, well, we didn't have this conversation.
John
It's whether God decreed that he would save creation through the incarnate Jesus after human sin or before human sin.
Tim
Okay.
John
In other words, was God's purpose to become one incarnate with creation in the person of the Son? Was that a. A knowledge and a decree made within God that whether humans had rebelled or not? In other words, is the incarnation only a response to human sin, or was it always in the divine plan to become one with creation in intimate union?
Tim
And I think what we've been saying is the whole point is, yes, to always become one. But what if the images of God, through listening to God's voice, through a heart that listens, could find that union and progress towards that union? Then God, God's self and the eternal word wouldn't have to suffer into death for the union to happen.
John
Yes, exactly.
Amy
Yeah, yeah.
John
So that is the supralapsarian view. Okay, so lapsarion lapsus means sin in Latin.
Tim
Like a lapse, Like a lapse of judgment.
John
Lapse of judgment, yeah. So supralapse means God's decision to become one with his creation is before, above and beyond human sin. Infra means within. So it was a decision made within the reality that humans have rebelled.
Tim
Okay.
John
What's interesting is just once you really start trying to put together the biblical story in logically coherent ways, you realize there's these gaps in clarity in many passages of the Bible that can be filled in different ways. And this passage raises an interesting question, which is within the divine mind, that God would become one with creation in the person of the Son.
Tim
From the beginning.
John
From the beginning. But that opens up a couple different possibilities. Okay, anyway, let's go to the letter to the Hebrews, and we're going to see a meditation on the same set of issues with the word redemption in the mix. But instead of thinking Passover, we now need to transport ourselves into the Day of Atonement. Okay, so let's pause, refresh the slate, and pivot into Hebrews 9 and the day of Atonement.
Amy
Okay.
John
The Day of Atonement stands at the center of the center of the Torah in the Hebrew Bible.
Cody
Yeah.
John
And it is a ritual that happened annually in ancient Israel where the high priest would do a bunch of things with a bunch of different animals ritually. But the main event to deal with the sin of Israel that had accumulated over the last year was related to two goats. They both are spotless, blameless, like the lamb, Passover lamb. But one of them the priest puts his hand on and confesses all the sins of Israel and is said to put them on the goat. And then that goat is exiled and sent out into the wilderness for Azazel.
Amy
That guy?
John
Yeah, totally. Which, most likely. Oh, yeah, Actually, Azaz means powerful and El means deity. Some divine powerful being out in the wilderness. So that's the goat associated with Israel's sin. That doesn't go anywhere near the tabernacle. That goes as far away. It's exiled, like Adam and Eve and the snake. But then this other blameless lamb who's associated with purity and life, its life is transformed in two ways. Its life ascends up into heaven by burning up. So it's killed and it's transformed through the fire, into smoke that rises up into the skies. It goes up and it goes in. Then its blood, which is a symbol of its life, is taken into the holy place. Then through the clouds of incense, which is a symbol of it ascending through the clouds, up into the sky. You go through the blue curtain, the veil. Through the veil that has heavenly creatures on it. You're going into the heavens. And then you go into the throne room of God, which is in the skies, the holy of holies, which also has heavenly creatures surrounding it, like cherubim. And you apply the blood there. And all of that is a symbolic retelling of humanity's re entry into God's throne. Into the God's throne. You pass by the fire. You pass by the sword.
Tim
Through the fire.
John
Yeah, sorry. Through the fire and sword. Like the knife that slits the throat of the animal.
Tim
The sword. The fiery sword at the boundary of the garden.
John
Yep, that's right. Past the cherubim into the center of.
Tim
The garden, back to life.
Amy
Yeah.
John
And then that blameless life appeals before God, and God takes that blameless life as a representative.
Tim
I see.
John
For all the people outside and says.
Tim
So you guys can be near too.
Amy
Mm. That's it.
John
That's the Dave atonement. Okay, so the author of the letter to the Hebrews, I'm just gonna call him the pastor. The pastor is showing in many ways, but especially in chapters 8 through 10, about how Jesus is the royal priest, but not of the tribe of Levi. He is an Israelite, but he's not of the tribe of Levi. He is the divine human royal priest that the Hebrew Bible was pointing towards. And he did something that Israel's priests pointed towards through the rituals, but could only point towards and not ever do themselves. That's the context. So Hebrews 9:11 begins a train of thought that uses the word redemption, and that's why we're looking at this. So in chapter nine, verse 11, the pastor says that when the Messiah appeared as a high priest, of the good things that are coming. That's a rad little line.
Amy
Hmm.
Tim
The new creation.
Amy
Yeah. He.
John
He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle.
Tim
Meaning God's actual throne room.
Amy
Yeah.
John
Okay. Not the one made with hands. That is to say, not of this creation. He entered into the thing that Moses saw, remember? But the tabernacle was a blueprint based on some thing.
Tim
God's cosmic throne.
John
Got it. Yep. He entered through the greater tabernacle, and.
Tim
Then that's his ascension after death.
John
He's referring to the combined meaning of his resurrection and ascension.
Amy
Yeah.
John
That's important. Okay, so first he says what he entered through and then makes a bunch of contrasts. He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle. No, not the one made with hands. And also not through the blood of goats and calves.
Cody
Yeah.
Tim
Because that's what the tabernacle used.
Amy
Yeah.
John
But rather through his own blood. So there's a contrast. Not through the blood of animals, but through his own blood.
Cody
Yeah.
Tim
You're saying we've watched animals go through, and it means them being burned up into smoke, their blood going up to the throne room.
Amy
Yeah.
John
So let's pause right here, and maybe I would just link back to our conversations about the meaning of the sacrifices from our series on Leviticus from a couple years ago. But the whole point was that the offering of the sacrifices was not to satisfy the anger of a deity who's like, I gotta kill somebody.
Tim
Something's gotta die.
Amy
Yeah.
John
But because the sacrifices and the death of the animals themselves were not sufficient to do what they're meant to do if they weren't aligned with the heart posture of the offerer. And we know this because Isaiah and Amos, among all the prophets, have these poems that rail against the offering of sacrifices.
Amy
Oh, yeah.
John
When your life and heart posture don't match what the meaning of the sacrifice is. So, for example, just as a quick thing in Isaiah, chapter one, Isaiah says to the leaders of Israel, what are your sacrifices to me? In 1, verse 11, I've had enough of the burnt offerings, those atoning sacrifices of rams and the fat of cattle. I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs, or goats. Why are you appearing before me and trampling my courts? And you could say, well, you told us to like all of this stuff you told us to do. That's why I hate your new moon festivals, your appointed feasts. I hate Passover. It's a burden to me. I'm tired of having to carry this. When you spread out your hands in prayer. I'M going to hide my eyes. You multiply prayers. I'm not listening. Because your hands are covered with blood. Which is surely an ironic twist because we're talking about sacrifices.
Tim
This is referring to violence towards each other.
Amy
Yeah.
John
So then just famous lines. Wash yourselves, remove the evil deeds from my sight. Cease to do evil, learn to do good. Seek justice. Correct the ruthless, defend the orphan, plead for the widow, repent.
Tim
Yeah. Turn around and listen to my voice.
Amy
Yeah.
Tim
And do what the Torah asks of you.
Amy
Yeah.
John
So sacrifices are only meaningful if they're joined and offered by someone whose life becomes a mirror of what the sacrifice symbolizes, which is a posture of repentance and surrender and of aligning myself with the desire and will of God and not my own. So that's important then, in saying it wasn't through the blood of goats and calves that the Messiah entered into the heavenly tabernacle. It was through his own blood, which is a symbol of his life. Well, what kind of life did the Messiah lead? It was a life completely aligned with the will of the Father. It was a life of repentance on behalf of those who can't and don't repent.
Cody
Yeah.
John
I'm just saying all that's buried in that little phrase there to kind of retrain our minds for what it means to say redeemed by the blood. So that's what he says next. So it's through his own blood that he entered the holy place once and for all, having obtained not just redemption. This is a unique turn of phrase in the Bible. Eternal redemption. Come on. Eternal, permanent repossession.
Amy
Okay. Yeah.
John
How could God ensure that this won't all happen again? Because if God just were to snap his fingers and say redeemed without having permanently changed the heart of his covenant partner, then this will all just replay again.
Cody
Yeah.
John
I think you've asked this question before. I've certainly been asked it and wondered it myself. You know, let's go to the last pages of the Bible. New creation, no more tears. Garden of Eden, heaven on earth. What's to prevent it all from going wrong again?
Cody
Yeah.
John
Like, are we just back to a Garden of Eden set up? But what if somebody, human or spiritual being, decides to peel off and do their own thing again? What's to prevent that from happening? What's the difference between the Garden of Eden and the New Eden? And the difference between those two moments in the biblical story is that in the Garden of Eden, God was with his people, like Adam and Eve, his creation. But in the new creation, God is one of his people. He has recreated and repossessed creation and humans in a way that has fundamentally changed who they are, but in another sense to become who they truly are as images of God. But it's about that repentance, that union of desire and will.
Amy
Yeah.
John
This is all a meditation on the phrase eternal redemption.
Tim
Eternal redemption. Okay.
John
Meaning that it won't ever have to do it again.
Tim
What will make it last, what will.
John
Make it eternal, what makes it eternal versus just a temporary redemption.
Tim
Isn't eternal? Isn't that word itself like, mean of the age? Yes, and the age is an age that lasts.
John
Exactly. It's an enduring, everlasting age.
Amy
Yeah.
Tim
No, that's an interesting.
John
Because he did this once and for all. One and done. So whatever Jesus did doesn't need to ever be redone again. That's a big theme that it uses to contrast the day of atonement, which has to happen year after year after year. So whatever's happening on the day of atonement, it's not actually fixing the problem. It's pointing to a problem and then pointing to the type of solution that we need, but it doesn't actually provide that solution.
Cody
Say that again.
John
The author to the Hebrews, in using this phrase, eternal redemption joins it with this phrase. Jesus did what he did once and for all, and that's a major theme in the Hebrews. And he's constantly contrasting that once and.
Tim
For all with the blood of the.
John
Goats, with the ritual sacrifices in the tent that have to happen day after day and year after year. Which means that the blood of goats in those rituals is pointing to a problem and pointing to a type of solution, which is a surrendered life of a human, the human offerer. But it's not actually providing the solution, it's just pointing to it.
Cody
Got it.
John
Actually, this is what he goes on to say next. He says, if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are defiled, if that could make holy for the purification of the flesh, like if God will accept these symbolic lives of blameless animals, how much more will the blood of the Messiah purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Cody
Okay.
John
And then he describes the Messiah, who he says, who through the eternal spirit offered himself without blemish to God. So the point isn't just somebody has to die. The point is somebody needs to live a life fully turned towards God. Like, that's what this is really about.
Cody
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John
And okay, so let's Join that to the Peter passage in our little house parable, Passover. Now we're back to why would the life of a blameless lamb, which is a symbol of the life of the blameless son of God, Why would that cover for others who go into the house? It covers for them. Not because it pays off or satisfies Pharaoh. It's the opposite. It's that Pharaoh has no claim on that.
Tim
By Pharaoh, you mean the destroyer.
John
The destroyer, yeah, that's right. So how is the redemption brought about through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus? How's that different than me repossessing something by giving somebody money? Is life like money? Well, Psalm 49 said, no, you can't buy life with money.
Tim
You can't buy it. There's no currency. But there is something that can stand in the door and can keep you safe. It's not really an exchange anymore in a way.
Amy
Yeah, yeah.
Tim
It's just like it's a full on, just rescue. It's full on saying you thought you owned this. You don't own it anymore. It's in my house.
Amy
Yeah.
John
This is you being the snake. The snake and death.
Tim
The death, the plague. You rightfully thought you own this now because this person was fully entwined with your desires, but that person's now united in my life. You don't own my life, so you can't take this anymore.
Amy
Yeah.
John
You know, I brought CS Lewis a couple times in the last few conversations in the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, when Aslan the lion, who's the Jesus divine messiah figure, talks about why he's going to go die on behalf of all of the land of Narnia and the people, why he's going to let the wicked witch kill him.
Tim
The White Witch.
Amy
The White Witch, yeah.
John
Totally. He talks about how there is a deeper magic from before the dawn of time.
Cody
Oh, right, yeah.
John
And that's the explanation.
Cody
Yeah.
John
He was like, what? But what Lewis is putting his thumb on, there are these themes from these passages we just looked at in Peter and Hebrews. He's not paying off the witch. He's giving the witch what she thinks belongs to her, but it doesn't actually belong to her. Which means he can pick up his life and take it back and then let that life cover for and enfold all of the others in Narnia who want to go on a ride into the new creation. So something like that. But I love this because the lifeblood of the Messiah stands in the slot of this item of exchange. But really it's breaking the whole notion of exchange, because it's just saying this. I'm taking back what's mine. It doesn't truly belong to you, snake or death.
Tim
And it's doing the thing that we would have to do, but really can't do.
Amy
Yeah, that's right.
Tim
Which is align our hearts with God's will and then to go through death, which has entangled us up and back into the garden, back into God's throne room, and we're just incapable of doing it. And so God says, I'm going to do it for you, and then you can do it with me because I did it for you.
Amy
Yeah, that's right.
John
Which is why redemption can be said to be you were redeemed out of the possession of sin or death, like in Paul, but you can also be redeemed from a way of life, which is the kind of human life that keeps leading you back into slavery.
Tim
The release of sin. Yes, the release from sin. The forgiveness of sin.
Amy
Yeah, that's right. Yep.
Tim
You can be released from this.
Amy
Yeah.
Tim
This theme isn't about union with God. What does it mean to be united in his death and then also be united in his life? I think that's a whole nother layer of this.
Amy
Yeah, totally.
John
Yeah, that's right.
Amy
Yeah.
Tim
But that's what it means to be purchased by the blood, be redeemed by.
John
The blood, to become God's possession, become.
Tim
God's possession in the way that Jesus suffered and died to do that with.
John
Him.
Tim
In union with him. That's the way through.
Amy
Yeah.
John
And maybe there. Yeah, it gets mystical real quick. I'm just thinking of, you know, moments where Paul will say, you know, I died with the Messiah. And you're like, really? I think you're still alive. He's like, nope, no, I was crucified to the world, and the world's crucified to me. And the life that I'm now living is actually the Son of God living in and through me. So my life isn't really fully my life, which it never really was in the first place, if you think about it. You know, we think that it is, but now that it's been repossessed, it's me and the Messiah living in me somehow at the same time.
Tim
And he could also talk about that, though, as then just like the first fruits of. Of a release from death that's not gonna come until the whole resurrection of his body.
Amy
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right.
Tim
When he really will have died and now be alive to Christ. So it's like he is dead and alive to Christ. He will go through death and be fully alive.
Amy
Yeah, yeah.
John
It's like the moment where his physical, embodied form catches up.
Tim
Where his mind is.
John
Where his mind and heart and spirit are, which are in union with the Messiah.
Tim
So the redemption has happened and we're still waiting to be redeemed. And creation is waiting for that final moment of redemption as well. The transfer of possession, the repossession.
John
So maybe here we're at that place we always come to in theme videos where they all merge together.
Tim
Oh, that place.
John
We're trying to separate redemption out from this theme of all these others. Salvation. Right. Rescue and the return to Eden. Repentance, union with Christ.
Tim
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John
And maybe it's because rescue from demons. Yeah. These are all, to use another metaphor, facets, little angled facets on a diamond that are all about one thing, really.
Cody
Yeah.
John
I need to go take a long walk. There are many beautiful truths that I hope even as we continue, there is something here to keep thinking about for a long time.
Tim
Thanks for hanging with us on this journey through the theme of redemption. We've got a new theme video on redemption. It's going to release on YouTube in a couple of weeks, but in the meantime our team has made some study resources, fun behind the scenes content and it's going to be releasing over the next couple of weeks. So keep an eye out for that. You can join us on social, make sure you're on an email list and you can find it all@bibleproject.com Next week we're having a special hyperlink episode. We've talked about many themes in the Bible and so we're going to look at how the theme of redemption has showed up in previous conversations. Bibleproject is a crowdfunded nonprofit and we exist to experience the Bible as a unified story that leads to Jesus. And everything that we make is free because of the generous support of thousands of people just like you. Thank you so much for being a part of this with us.
Sophia
Hi, my name is Amy and I'm from Orange County.
N/A
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Sophia
I first heard about bibleproject from Instagram many years ago. I used the bibleproject for personal to discipleship and helping my kids understand God's word and catch a love for it.
N/A
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Sophia
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N/A
That leads to Jesus. Bibleproject is a nonprofit funded by people like me. Find free videos, articles, podcast classes and more on the Bibleproject app and@bibleproject.com hey.
Everyone, this is Sophia Ornellis. I'm on the people team here at Bioproject. I've been working at BioProject for almost two years and my favorite part about my work is all of the truly amazing humans that I get to work with daily. There's a whole team of people that bring the podcast to life every week. For a full list of everyone who's involved, check out the show credits in the episode description. Wherever you stream the podcast and on our website.
Release Date: August 11, 2025
Series: Final Episode in the Redemption Series
Hosts: Tim, John, Amy, and Cody
The BibleProject Podcast concludes its ten-episode series on the biblical theme of redemption by delving into the concept of eternal redemption. Tim opens the discussion by defining redemption as the "transfer of something back to where it belongs," emphasizing humanity's original design for life contrasted with the reality of death ensnaring us (00:05). He introduces the economic metaphor of redemption requiring a payment, leading into an exploration of how Jesus' blood serves this purpose.
Notable Quote:
Tim (00:05): "To redeem is to transfer something back to where it belongs. God designed humanity for life, but we're instead captured by death."
John elaborates on the distinction between monetary payment and Jesus' sacrificial blood, stressing that redemption isn’t about an equal exchange but a profound transformation. He explains that Christ’s blood doesn’t belong to death, effectively denying its claim over believers (00:47–01:03).
Notable Quote:
John (00:47): "The point of drawing those two into relationship is not to say that they're similar... It's not with silver or gold, it’s rather with this other thing."
The conversation transitions to Hebrews 9, where Tim and John discuss Jesus as the ultimate high priest who offers a perfect sacrifice. John highlights that true sacrifices must be accompanied by a corresponding posture of repentance and surrender, mirroring Jesus' life aligned with the Father’s will (01:13–04:05).
Notable Quote:
John (01:13): "Sacrifices are only meaningful if they're joined and offered by someone whose life becomes a mirror of what the sacrifice is."
Amy and Tim discuss the biblical narrative of redemption as God's act of freeing humanity from the bondage of sin and death. They draw parallels between Israel's liberation from Pharaoh and the broader cosmic battle against chaos and death, portraying redemption as God's repossession of His creation (04:02–10:10).
Notable Quote:
Tim (04:02): "Redemption is about God repossessing, transferring us back out of slavery into freedom."
The hosts explore how Jesus’ life exemplifies the ideal relationship with God, embodying repentance and surrender. His death and resurrection are portrayed not merely as a payment but as a transformative act that enables believers to share in His life, thereby achieving redemption (10:03–16:58).
Notable Quote:
John (06:13): "Redemption is about being transferred back into the life that God has created us."
John delves into the concept of "eternal redemption" as presented in Hebrews 9 and 1 Peter. He contrasts the repetitive sacrifices of the Old Testament with Jesus' once-for-all sacrifice, emphasizing its enduring effectiveness. This eternal aspect ensures that redemption is permanently secured, preventing the cycle of failure seen in previous redemptive acts (12:09–43:05).
Notable Quote:
John (41:15): "Eternal redemption means that it won't ever have to do it again."
The discussion highlights the symbolic significance of blood in redemption narratives, linking it to Passover and the Day of Atonement. The hosts explain how Jesus' blood, unlike animal sacrifices, represents a blameless life and a permanent solution to sin and death, effectively nullifying the claims of the "destroyer" (25:16–28:07).
Notable Quote:
John (26:07): "The precious blood of the Messiah... doesn’t belong to death. Yet the Messiah willingly surrendered his life to death on behalf of those who actually do rightfully belong to death."
The series finale emphasizes the mystic union between believers and Christ, where Jesus' death and resurrection facilitate a profound transformation. This union enables believers to partake in eternal life, aligning their desires with God's will and ensuring lasting redemption that transcends human ability to achieve it independently (49:50–51:27).
Notable Quote:
Tim (50:03): "Redemption means that you were purchased by the blood, redeemed by the life that Jesus suffered and died to do that with, in union with him."
As the episode wraps up, Tim and John reflect on how redemption intertwines with various biblical themes such as salvation, rescue, and repentance. They underscore redemption as a multifaceted but unified concept central to the biblical narrative. The hosts express gratitude to listeners and hint at upcoming content related to the theme of redemption.
Notable Quote:
John (52:26): "There are many beautiful truths that I hope even as we continue, there is something here to keep thinking about for a long time."
For further exploration of the theme of redemption, visit BibleProject.com for study resources, videos, and more insightful content. Stay connected through their social media channels and consider supporting this crowdfunded nonprofit dedicated to making biblical stories accessible to all.