John Dyer (3:56)

Instead of as the scapegoat.

Tim Mackie (3:58)

Yeah. Makes you sound like this goat is being sent for some other on behalf of. For some other thing named the scapegoat. And actually, the oddity is the problem at the heart of the NIV's interpretation here. The New American Standard also translates it as scapegoat. So does King James. But the ESV transliterates the word Azazel with a capital A. Yeah. One lot for Yahweh, one lot for Azazel.

John Dyer (4:27)

Like it's a name of something.

Tim Mackie (4:29)

Yeah. And the NRSV does that as well. Why do they do that? Well, so notice the parallelism of verse 8. It's almost like a poetic line. Aaron will cast lots for two goats, one lot for Yahweh, the other lot for Azazel. So the sentence structure leads you to think that each lot will designate each goat for someone. Then we'll just keep reading. Then Aaron will offer the goat on which is the lot for Yahweh fell, and make it a purification offering. And the goat on which the lot for Azazel fell shall be presented alive before Yahweh to make atonement for it, to send it to Azazel into the wilderness. So there is ample evidence that the earliest interpreters of Leviticus understood this as the name of a spiritual being. A Semitic scholar, Nicholas Wyatt, thinks it derives from two roots. One is the word Azaz in Hebrew, which means strong. And the other one is El, which means spiritual being, powerful spiritual being who resides in the wilderness. So here's the next thing that is interesting. The two goats are presented together as a singular offering. And there's no other offering that's quite like this. So first, the goat, that is for Yahweh, he shall slaughter the goat of the purification offering. That's for the people. And he will bring its blood inside.

John Dyer (6:03)

The veil, inside the holy place.

Tim Mackie (6:05)

Yeah, the holy of holies. And this is it. This is like the time that he goes in. Once a year, he will do with its blood as he did with the blood of a bull. He will sprinkle it right on the atonement lid, on the mercy seat. And he shall make atonement for the holy place because of the impurities of the Sons of Israel and because of their transgressions in regard to all their sins. So he will do this for the tent of meeting that dwells in the middle of them, in the middle of their impurities.

John Dyer (6:37)

All right. Two goats. One is going to be an atonement.

Tim Mackie (6:42)

Purification offering.

John Dyer (6:43)

Purification offering.

Tim Mackie (6:44)

That's right. Yeah.

John Dyer (6:45)

And we know from that the purification offering, the lifeblood's taken from the animal, and the. The animal gave its life even though it didn't deserve it because it didn't have blemish. So it's this idea of something without the moral failings that you had. Even though its blemishes weren't about moral.

Tim Mackie (7:01)

Failings, they were a symbol of them. They were a symbol of them is.

John Dyer (7:05)

Dying on your behalf. The blood is drained out. The life is in the blood. There's some sort of life power still in that blood. The priest sprinkles it on objects and on the space. And it's still hard for me to wrap my mind around. But it's this idea of our corruption, our moral failings isn't just something that screws with me and my relationship with maybe God or with others. It actually screws up with the whole environment.

Tim Mackie (7:40)

A vandalism.

John Dyer (7:41)

A vandalism is the metaphor you've been using. And that the lifeblood is this ritual kind of cleansing to kind of clear the air, clean the slate, but also because of the transgressions in regard to their sins.

Tim Mackie (7:57)

There's two reasons given here in Leviticus 16:16, making atonement. One, because of the impurities of the sons of Israel. So this is like. This is the stuff that doesn't have to do with moral failings.

John Dyer (8:13)

Impurities just means, like, being impure.

Tim Mackie (8:14)

We just talked about being ritually impure. And it's as if those ritual impurities of skin disease and of touching dead bodies and of leaking reproductive fluids, and these are all symbols, fluids and substances that are associated with death or the loss of life. It's as if the tent in the middle of the camp is depicted as surrounded by a chaotic sea of encroaching death by dying people who live around the tent. And those are constantly breaking at the Shore, as it were, and spattering up little bits of impurity over the tent curtains and like slowly vandalizing. So that's one image. Okay, so that needs to be dealt with. And then the second reason given is because of their transgressions in regard to all their sins, their moral impurities.

John Dyer (9:07)

And that's also polluting.

Tim Mackie (9:09)

Is also polluting. And so the singular act of atonement, it's dealing with both. And we're back to our conversation many episodes ago. The atonement is used in two ways. And the Hebrew Bible scholar here that I've learned the most from is Jay Sklar. His book Impurity and Sin and Atonement in Ancient Israel. That's not the precise title, but we'll put a link in the show notes to his book is the atonement is used in two ways, related to the two main meanings of its root word. One is to provide a ransom. When you wrong someone, you owe them. And so when we wrong each other, we wrong God. That's core to this idea. And so we owe God for wronging each other. And so a blameless life being offered unfairly to give its life for my sins is a ransom. But then also another metaphorical kind of scheme is that my sins and impurities pollute the divine presence like that, encroaching waves of ickiness. And so that blood can overpower the forces of death by standing in my place as a blameless substitute, where life, a blameless life, can cover over death and sin. Both stories are being told right here in Leviticus 16:16. And this goat, which is only one half of the day of atonement offering, the one that goes into the holy place by the priest, does that.

John Dyer (10:39)

The emphasis is on the pollution and the vandalism.

Tim Mackie (10:43)

Yeah, I have to separate them to make sense of them. But the idea is our signs of mortality, our impurities, which are not morally wrong, but they are signs that we're dying creatures. And then also my moral failures. And death and moral failure is linked closely together in the biblical story, because the only reason we're all outside of Eden is because of humanity's moral failings. And so the moral failings are compensated for and the effects of our moral failings are reversed by the blood of the substitute put on the atonement lid, as if this lid, which is the place where God's presence touches down, is the place where God has provided the substitute. I'm not saying any of this makes deep intuitive sense to me, but I'm saying it's A symbolic ritual language that I've had to work a long time to learn what it's saying. But I think once you sympathetically can enter into the symbols, you can see at least the story. So this one represents a blameless life who can ascend the mountain of the Lord. Psalm 15. Only the blameless one who does what is right and just. So this animal unfairly dies for the sins of the non blameless and carries in its life to cover over the effects of Israel's sins that have polluted the most holy place. That's the symbolism here. All right. What we also hear is nobody else should be in the tent when he brings in that goat. Just one representative human, Yahweh. Okay. Down to verse 20. So then he comes out, and when he finishes atoning for the holy place and for the tent of meeting and for the altar, because he actually sprinkles blood on all those. This is cool. So where he goes is he takes the blood of that goat and he goes in to the most holy place, which is going to the most westward point. The door is always facing east toward the sunrise. So. So you go in through the door. That brings you into the courtyard. You go past the altar, you go in the east door. So you're constantly going west. But what happens is he takes the blood in and then he starts a journey from the western holy spot to.

John Dyer (13:00)

Go east to sprinkle the blood.

Tim Mackie (13:01)

Yeah. And he's sprinkling at each key point on his eastward exile from the holy place. Adam and Eve are exiled at the east side of the garden. Cain is exiled east of Eden. The Babylonians go east. So it's as if the high priest is following the eastward exile of humanity from the early chapters of Genesis, sprinkling blood at every exile along the way. So then he comes out and he comes to that goat that's alive, and he puts the two hands and he presses them down on the head of that goat that's alive. And he confesses over it all the iniquities of the sons of Israel, all their transgressions and all their sins, he will place them on the head of the goat. Now there's good symbolic language for you. Put the sin on the goat. Yeah.

John Dyer (13:55)

Somehow.

Tim Mackie (13:55)

Somehow. Then what he does is send it into the wilderness by the hand of a man of my time. A man of the time. A man of appointing.

John Dyer (14:06)

Someone will set him up, and that.

Tim Mackie (14:08)

Goat will carry upon itself the iniquities of Israel to a land that is cut off. And he will send the goat into.

John Dyer (14:17)

The wilderness, the sins are exiled.

Tim Mackie (14:21)

Yeah. So the Holy of holies represents like the Eden tree of life center. And one goat goes in there, the blameless goat goes in there. The living goat goes out into the wilderness to a cut off land, the opposite end of the cosmos in the biblical imagination. And what's interesting is Azazel is not brought up there, noticing that here it's just called the realm of being cut off in the wilderness, which is the opposite of the garden. So the scholars call this the elimination ritual. And I learned a lot about this from reading lots of scholars. One particularly illuminating account for this ritual was a scholar named Roy Gain in his book Cult and Character. It's a whole book about purification offerings in the day of atonement and the problem of evil in the Hebrew Bible. So I'm just going to talk through this kind of extended quote, but this was hugely illuminating for me. And he says, no part of this goat, the living goat, is offered to Yahweh. This is not a sacrifice. It's an elimination ritual. The biblical prescription does not call for the death of this goat. It is simply sent away as a ritual garbage truck carrying controlled toxic waste to Azazel. Now, Azazel's precise nature is elusive. The reason for the LOT ritual before Yahweh is that he must decide the role of the goats through what appears to be chance. Through the LOT ceremonies, the goats are designated as belonging to Yahweh and Azazel, respectively, each being a party capable of ownership. The fact that Yahweh is a supernatural being could be taken to imply that Azazel is the same, but the animal is not an offering to Azazel. Rather, the live goat transports Israelite failures to Azazel, who ends up having to take this noxious load. The ritual is an unfriendly gesture to Azazel. It's more like sending someone a load of chemical or nuclear waste.

John Dyer (16:40)

Yeah.

Tim Mackie (16:41)

Because it's Yahweh who commands the priest to perform the ritual, it appears that Azazel is his enemy. It's likely, therefore, that Azazel is some kind of spiritual being, that his presence in the desert regions is the extreme opposite of God's holy presence in the holy of Holies. However, the nature of Azazel's personality is not revealed in Leviticus, likely to avoid the danger that some might be tempted to honor him. This is the snake. It's a name for the snake. And so that evil one is the architect behind why we're all outside of Eden. So Once a year, we send him a load of BS in a paper bag on fire. Right. And we send it out, like, send it back where it came from.

John Dyer (17:26)

Ring the doorbell.

Tim Mackie (17:27)

It's the elimination ritual. It's so illuminating. And both goats together, remember, are a singular purification offering.

John Dyer (17:35)

How do you get that both goats are a singular.

Tim Mackie (17:37)

When he said. Back when he said, take two special goats for a singular purification offering. So one is the blameless one who goes in and gives its life for sinful people and its blameless life ransoms them from death and also purifies the pollution of their iniquities. And then the other goat represents Yahweh's desire to do away with the effects of sin and evil once and for all by sending the load of waste back to the one who brought it into the world in the first place. This is the core of the day of atonement. It's remarkable.

John Dyer (18:17)

Yeah. So Jesus is talked about in terms of being an atoning sacrifice.

Tim Mackie (18:23)

He talked about his own coming death as an atoning sacrifice. Yes. What's interesting about Jesus is he is bringing together all of the mosaic tiles of depicting God's victory over the evil one and his dealing with the consequences of human sin, and he's merged them all together. So important passages here for Jesus are like Mark 10:45, where after two disciples come and say, hey, Jesus, you know, when you're enthroned as the king of the universe could, like we sit at your right and left hands, and Jesus says, you have no idea what you're asking for. Are you going to be able to be baptized, go through the waters that I'm going to have to go through? That's suggestive of purification. Purification? Yep. You know, the kings of our world, he says, love to become lords over people. They love to have authority. But now here in this crew, the. The one who is great becomes the servant. Whoever wants to be first must become the servant of all. For even the son of Adam, son of humanity, didn't come to be served, but to become a servant and to give his life as a lutron. Ransom for many.

John Dyer (19:46)

Atonement.

Tim Mackie (19:47)

Yeah. A sacrifice. Atonement that ransoms someone from death. Yeah.

John Dyer (19:53)

The word atonement's not used.

Tim Mackie (19:55)

No, it's the word redemption. Yeah. It's to purchase someone from a state of slavery leading unto death. Yep. But the point is, here he is activating the son of Daniel 7, the son of man. He's activating the suffering servant of Isaiah with this language, and he's activating the Exodus narrative of redemption from death through the death of the Passover lamb. That's Mark 10:45. Other key passages. I'll just. I could go to any of the Last Supper narratives, but Jesus chooses Passover. I'll go to Luke 22's account of the Last Supper. But Jesus chooses the weekend of Passover to time his showdown with the powers in Jerusalem. In Luke's account, he says, I've desired to eat this Passover with you before I come. When he takes the bread, he says, this is my body given for you. Do this in remembrance of me. In the same way, he took the cup, and he said, this cup, which is poured out for y', all, is the new covenant in my blood.

John Dyer (20:58)

Poured out versus sprinkled. That's interesting.

Tim Mackie (21:01)

Yeah, because remember, the blood would get taken from an animal, a purification offering. It would get taken into the Holy of Holies and sprinkled in the holy place and. And then sprinkled on the altar. And then what's left in the bowl gets poured out at the base of the altar. Yeah. So here Jesus is merging together imagery from the purification offerings happening in the tabernacle and the purification offerings that happen throughout the year culminate in this one great purification that is the day of atonement. But he's doing this on Passover, which.

John Dyer (21:35)

Is a different type of substitute, a different narrative.

Tim Mackie (21:39)

But both had to do with the sins of Israel, and the sins of the empires of this world lead to slavery and evil and death. And so Yahweh is going to bring a great flood of justice over the land. But for anyone who wants to be covered by God's mercy, he provides a blameless substitute. That's the Passover lamb. But that's also essentially what the day of atonement is about. He's brought Israel out into the wilderness, a land of danger and death, and he's provided a way for them to be washed of their sins and impurities. But, man, if they don't deal with them, they're going to pollute Yahweh's presence and he'll leave, which will leave them to die in the wilderness. And so the day of atonement, goats become another way of looking into the mystery of. Of what Passover is. The Hebrew Bible is a huge mosaic. So all these narratives and here ritual symbols help us become wise about what's wrong with us and what's wrong with the world. What is God doing about it? What has God done about it? And Jesus, just in a very few little words, brings all of these narrative images together in a really provocative way. And the Last Supper is an important place for that.

John Dyer (23:00)

What Christians like to say is that these sacrifices were pointing to or trying to enact what Jesus actually accomplished.

Tim Mackie (23:09)

Yeah, Yep, that's right.

John Dyer (23:10)

That he's actually doing something that all of the symbolism was the hope and power of.

Tim Mackie (23:16)

Yeah. So here an important distinction needs to be made between the actual historical activities happening in around the tent and the tabernacle and the Hebrew Bible's representation of all of that. Because the Hebrew Bible gives us a literary representation of the day of Atonement and a Passover. But included within a collection of scrolls that have all of these other stories in it. And one scroll in the Hebrew Bible is Isaiah, which tells you Israel and humanity really needs is a person who will ascend to the high place and offer their life as a blameless sacrifice. In other words, Leviticus is alongside Isaiah is alongside Genesis. So when the author of Hebrews says it's impossible for the blood of animals to take away sins, he's not saying something new. What he's saying is what is already the message of the Hebrew Bible. Because the Hebrew Bible is telling you that the animal sacrifices are just a symbolic gift of Yahweh, of a down payment of something bigger that needs to happen, which is of a blameless human who would come and stand in the holy place and offer their life. And that's what Moses story is about to. That makes sense.

John Dyer (24:34)

So Jesus saw himself as the blameless goat whose blood is purifying. Now there's a goat who bears the sins and is cast out. Jesus identify with that goat.

Tim Mackie (24:51)

It seems like the gospel authors want to associate Jesus with both goats, one by being the blameless sufferer. But then there's the emphasis that Jesus death is happening outside the city near a burial plot grave area outside the city gate.

John Dyer (25:10)

Yeah.

Tim Mackie (25:10)

And so the one place in the New Testament this is really exploited is in the letter to the Hebrews where he says therefore Jesus also that he might sanctify the people through his own blood suffered outside the gate. So let us go out to him outside the camp bearing his shame. The purification offering animals. Their remains were taken outside the camp to a dumping site. So it could be that he's referring to that he could also be referring to the goat that is exiled outside of the camp as well. Yeah, you go join him.

John Dyer (25:48)

Well, because there's 1 Peter 2.

Tim Mackie (25:52)

Oh yeah.

John Dyer (25:53)

Jesus himself bore our sins in his body.

Tim Mackie (25:56)

Yep.

John Dyer (25:57)

That makes me think of like the ordination of the scapegoat with, like, taking the sins.

Tim Mackie (26:03)

Yeah, yeah. Of bearing the sins, he's saying. Yep. Yeah. What verse is that?

John Dyer (26:10)

24.

Tim Mackie (26:11)

There it is. Yeah. 2, verse 24. Yeah. He links Jesus to a sacrificial animal that carries our sins. And there's only one animal that's said to carry the sins of Israel, and that's the goat for Azazel. Yeah. The scapegoat. Yeah. So that's a good example. That little line comes from Leviticus 16, but he's refracted that language through the way. That's all summarized in Isaiah 53, which he's also quoting from right here. And then in the next line where.

John Dyer (26:41)

He says, oh, by his wounds you've been healed.

Tim Mackie (26:43)

By his wounds, we've been healed. So he's reading the day of Atonement through the poem about the suffering servant. That's what we're seeing. Peter's mind is so saturated that he thinks about the day of atonement through the prism, through the looking glass of Isaiah 53. He sees them as deeply connected.

John Dyer (27:04)

Where did Isaiah get the idea that the suffering servant would bear the sins?

Tim Mackie (27:11)

Yeah, yeah. I think from the day of atonement and from the narratives about Moses giving his life for the sins of the people and so on. So, yeah, this is the chapter that resolves the crisis at the center of the center of the center of the Torah. And the fact that it needs to happen every year also tells us that it's like a stopgap. This is not new creation.

John Dyer (27:35)

This doesn't settle it.

Tim Mackie (27:36)

We haven't restored humanity back to Eden.

John Dyer (27:39)

We're still enacting something.

Tim Mackie (27:41)

Yeah, that's right. What God has given is a way for Torah instruction and a way for his people to understand who they are, what they need, what God wants to give them. This is what the ritual instructions of Leviticus are all about. Yeah.

John Dyer (28:00)

Also, as a concluding note, when we were talking about the offerings before you showed, there was a sentence where God.

Tim Mackie (28:09)

Says, I have given them to you.

John Dyer (28:11)

I'm giving them to you.

Tim Mackie (28:12)

Yeah.

John Dyer (28:13)

This isn't like an obligation we owe to God to try to appease him, but was a gift that God was giving to us to know we can be in a right standing and to embrace this. Right standing.

Tim Mackie (28:25)

Yeah. It's actually in the chapter right after the day of atonement. It's in Leviticus 17, where God says, the life of flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for yourselves. It's God presented as the initiator and the giver of the blameless life that will ransom from death and purify from the effects of sin.

John Dyer (28:53)

God is giving the life of the blood to us.

Tim Mackie (28:55)

Yeah, the life of a blameless one.

John Dyer (28:58)

Of a blameless one.

Tim Mackie (28:59)

Yeah.

John Dyer (28:59)

As a gift.

Tim Mackie (29:00)

Yep. That is clearly how Jesus saw it, which is why he presented himself as the gift of God, as God's gift to a failed Israel and a failed humanity. Which is, I think, why, you know, the apostles and the Apostle John among them, whoever penned the letters of John and whichever apostle you think it is, the one that abandoned him in Gethsemane or the one John the Elder, who stuck around with Jesus mom by the cross. But either way, John's takeaway from having seen Jesus die is the most simple, profound statement in the New Testament. God is love, and he demonstrated his love for us in this While we were. Well, actually I'm merging it now with Romans 5. While we were still sinners, the Messiah died for us. The atonement is a revelation of the love of God for Jesus and for the apostle apostles. And I think here in Leviticus too, it just takes a little more work for us to get there.

Michelle Jones (30:09)

That clip was from our 2022 Leviticus Scrolls series, episode six titled what is the Day of Atonement? You can listen to the entire nine part series to dive deeper into the structure and themes of the book of Leviticus. Now let's add another theme to the mix. In a long series about how to read the Bible. Tim And John spend six episodes talking about how biblical poetry works. 30% of the Bible is poetry full of metaphoric language. Metaphor is our fundamental way of perceiving the world. We create understanding by comparing familiar experiences with new ideas. And every culture has its own way of developing metaphoric language. We say things like, do you have time? Or I'm out of time Or Can I buy some more time? These are all phrases that show that we think of time as a possession. This clip is from the question and response episodes that conclude the discussion on biblical poetry. Does Paul think of time as a possession that needs to be purchased? Let's listen in. Hi John and Tim, I'm Chris Powers from Carbondale, Illinois. You talked about the metaphor of time as a possession and used it as an example of a modern metaphor. Then you said that the Bible doesn't view time in this way. However, in Psalm 31:15, David says, My times are in your hand. And in Ephesians 5:16, Paul writes that we should redeem the time don't these phrases suggest that both David and Paul view time figuratively as a tangible and valuable possession?

Tim Mackie (31:51)

Thanks so much.

Michelle Jones (31:52)

God bless.

Tim Mackie (31:54)

Yeah, that's good. This was actually a little detail in our conversation about metaphor schemes.

John Dyer (31:58)

Yeah.

Tim Mackie (31:59)

Time as a possession.

John Dyer (32:00)

Yeah. How much had you thought about that before you mentioned it?

Tim Mackie (32:04)

Like, not at all.

John Dyer (32:05)

Yeah, it seemed like kind of just a. Yeah, it was an afterthought kind of thing.

Tim Mackie (32:09)

However, though I do think biblical authors conception of time is fundamentally different, that's a whole thing that I would love to learn more about. My point in that moment was just the Bible isn't filled with the same metaphors of time as a possession that we use.

John Dyer (32:26)

We use it so much.

Tim Mackie (32:27)

We use it so much. I lost time, spare some time, give some time, gain some time, buy some time. And the biblical authors don't use that kind of vocabulary. However, Chris, you identified too interesting text one, right? In Psalm 31, my times are in your hand. David says to God. And then in Ephesians chapter five. Yeah. Paul talks about redeeming the time. So I did, I went and looked both those up and thought about those. Because you're questioning Chris, here's what's interesting. In neither one of those cases is time my possession. So in Psalm 31, David's whole point is, my time belongs to you, my time belongs to God.

John Dyer (33:09)

Yeah.

Tim Mackie (33:10)

So time isn't my possession, it's God's possession. It's something God has and that he providentially orchestrates.

John Dyer (33:18)

So you could use. So you could say, I'm saving time for God, I'm saving God's time.

Tim Mackie (33:24)

Yeah.

John Dyer (33:24)

That would be a funny way to talk like. Yeah, like you just saved me some of God's time.

Tim Mackie (33:28)

Yeah. And even In Ephesians chapter 5, time, when it says redeem the time, it's not because time is mine, it's because time is evil. What he says is redeeming the time because the days are evil. And redeem is Exodus language that's purchasing a slave's freedom to release them into the promised land.

John Dyer (33:51)

So time is. The metaphor is that time is in slavery to evil. In slavery to evil.

Tim Mackie (33:56)

Yeah. Time's a captive of evil.

John Dyer (33:58)

Time is. Time is a captive.

Tim Mackie (34:00)

And we in the power of the new human Jesus are able to free time from its slavery to evil and release it into the new creation.

John Dyer (34:13)

So that's a great example of what a cool metaphor. It is a cool metaphor. So the common Western metaphor is time is a possession. Yeah.

Tim Mackie (34:22)

Time is my possession.

John Dyer (34:23)

Time is my possession.

Tim Mackie (34:23)

So if I Redeem it. It means I maximize it for my purposes.

John Dyer (34:26)

Yeah, Right. And that's actually how I would typ. Quickly read that verse, redeem the time. Okay. Maximize my time. I'm not gonna sleep in. I'm not gonna Whatever.

Tim Mackie (34:35)

But.

John Dyer (34:36)

Which isn't necessarily completely off the mark.

Tim Mackie (34:39)

Yeah, but. Yeah, that's right.

John Dyer (34:41)

You're saying the metaphor that the Bible's.

Tim Mackie (34:43)

Drawing upon Paul is using. When you look at his use of the word redeem.

John Dyer (34:47)

Yeah. The metaphoric scheme in his head is time is a captive time.

Tim Mackie (34:51)

It's the Exodus scheme.

John Dyer (34:53)

Time is in slavery.

Tim Mackie (34:54)

Yeah, actually, it's bigger than that. It's just the world is in slavery to evil and selfishness.

John Dyer (35:00)

Okay.

Tim Mackie (35:00)

And time is one example that can generate many different types of people are enslaved to evil.

John Dyer (35:06)

Well, when he says time, is he referring to, like, you know, the age, how we talk about the age of sin and death?

Tim Mackie (35:12)

Yeah, that's right.

John Dyer (35:13)

So we're in an age that is captive.

Tim Mackie (35:16)

Yes.

John Dyer (35:16)

And we can rescue the age.

Tim Mackie (35:19)

We can be a part of redeeming the time, freeing it from slavery.

John Dyer (35:23)

But redeeming time seems kind of trite. Like, oh, I'm going to save an hour, but rescuing an age.

Tim Mackie (35:28)

Yeah, that's right.

John Dyer (35:29)

That sounds epic, right?

Tim Mackie (35:32)

Yeah. Yeah. Again, our English word redeem has become bland from its biblical meaning. So think purchase or rescue, and purchase in terms of purchase something that's enslaved so that you can free it.

John Dyer (35:45)

But he's not talking about, like, you know, organize your calendar better. That's not Paul's point.

Tim Mackie (35:50)

No. Oh, no, totally not.

John Dyer (35:52)

His point is, like, that we live in an era that is enslaved to evil and we can be a part of here rescuing this era.

Tim Mackie (36:06)

Yeah. And actually, it's the crowning battle cry. It's a crowning statement of a whole series of metaphors in Ephesians 5 where he talks about, you were formerly dark, but now you are light in the Lord. So that's Genesis 1. And then he talks about the fruit of the light. So all of a sudden, the light grows fruit.

John Dyer (36:25)

There's like a mixing metaphors now.

Tim Mackie (36:27)

Yeah. And what's the fruit of the light? Goodness, righteousness, truth, new humanity.

John Dyer (36:32)

Yeah.

Tim Mackie (36:32)

And then he says, don't participate in the unfruitful actions of the dark. Rather shine light on them. Wow.

John Dyer (36:42)

So light. Light is this type of tree that grows fruit. Dark is this kind of thing that grows unfruit.

Tim Mackie (36:50)

Yeah, it is. And then he says, for this reason, it says. He quotes a hymn that they sang in the church. Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead and Messiah will shine on you. So now dark is associated with death and light associated with resurrection and new creation.

John Dyer (37:06)

This is so saturated in metaphors.

Tim Mackie (37:09)

Yeah. And this is very typical for Paul. His mind is steeped in the metaphors of the Hebrew Bible, and so he will mix them and combine them creatively. And this is the whole point we're making is the early biblical narratives, especially Genesis, are the seedbed of the entire biblical metaphorical imagination. Light, dark. Right. Death, life, fruit. This is all Genesis 1:3 imagery. So then when he says, redeem the time for the days are evil, he's venturing into the Exodus narrative to talk about time as a captive to evil. Yes. You're participating in the redemption of creation. So he's not talking about. Yeah, get more efficient with your calendar.

John Dyer (37:52)

Yeah.

Tim Mackie (37:52)

He's talking about loving your neighbor as yourself and loving God.

John Dyer (37:58)

Living like you are ushering in a new era.

Tim Mackie (38:01)

Yeah. Living as if you're in the new garden of Eden. Yeah. Even though we're in the in between time.

John Dyer (38:07)

Beautiful.

Tim Mackie (38:07)

Yeah. Chris Powers. Thank you. Good question.

John Dyer (38:09)

Thanks, Chris.

Michelle Jones (38:11)

That clip was from our 2018 series on how to read biblical poetry, specifically the poetry question and response episode. Now let's move to our third and final clip. In our series on redemption, we talked about God redeeming humanity from the realm of sin and death and bringing humanity into the realm of God's own life. But this raises an interesting question. What happens to us between the time we die and when God raises us to new life? In 2017, John and Tim did a series on the Hebrew word nephesh, which in English gets translated as soul. In Hebrew thought, our nephesh simply means physical life or the fact that we are a living being. When characters in the Bible talk about their Nephesh, they typically mean their embodied existence that is sustained by God's only life. And while the biblical authors believe that your life or your existence can persist after your body is in the grave, there's a little discussion on what that type of life is. In this clip, John and Tim discuss what happens to our Nephesh after we die. Can God redeem our Nephesh from the grave? Here's Tim and John.

Tim Mackie (39:33)

So the reason why the biblical authors have a category for a you that survives after death, after your body gives out. It has to do with their deep conviction that God made this world good, that he loves it and that he's committed to it, and he's committed to rescuing it so that it can be what he always meant it to be. And if that's the case, then within this biblical right, Hebrew mindset, death cannot be the end of me. What the biblical authors refuse to speculate about is, what is the me? What is the state and experience of the me after I die? And we've had these conversations before, it's just there's virtually no information. Yeah, the grave or being with the Lord. And so here we go. Here's one. It's a great example in the Old Testament where the poet of Psalm 16 is talking about how God is committed to him, connected to David, the hope of the Davidic king, how God's committed to him. And he says, Psalm 16, verse 8, I set the Lord continually before me because he's at my right hand. I won't be shaken, therefore my heart is glad. My glory rejoices, my flesh dwells securely. You won't abandon my Nephesh to the grave or allow your Holy One to see the pit. You'll make known to me the path of life. So here's a sense of, you won't abandon my Nephesh to the grave. So when I die, isn't my body going to go to the grave? Yeah. So in that sense, my Nephesh, my physical existence, is. But there's another sense in which that can't be the end of the story. If this God is who this God says he is, he's committed to redeeming his world and his people. And so here's the use of nephesh that does seem to be the you that isn't tied to your current mortal body, but is connected to the you that will be the immortal, physical you. You've made known to me the path of life, there'll be a way through death to a physical existence on the other side. So this is not talking about afterlife. This is talking about when this Nephesh, when this prototype of my Nephesh gives out, the next version will be what you usher me into. So this is very important. This is not talking about the afterlife. Even in this use, we're not talking about an immortal, eternal soul. It's talking about, my Nephesh will take new form. So, I mean, he's going to die, but in another sense, he's able to say, you're not going to let my Nephesh die.

John Dyer (42:34)

How do you know he's going to die? He knows he's going to die.

Tim Mackie (42:36)

Well, I think there's a sense of. I mean, it's just being human. You're going to die. The last line of the poem is in your presence is fullness of joy. In your right hand are pleasures forever. It seems like what the poet's straining at here is that if God is truly committed to me and to this world, in this case, to the line of David, then death can't be the end. There has to be a form of life, eternal life, physical existence that God still has in store. There's a similar sentiment in the conclusion of Psalm 73. It's just not that many. But that's the basic idea.

John Dyer (43:16)

There's this verse where it says, you will redeem my life from the grave. I think it's like, you will redeem my life from the grave. You will surely take me to yourself. Here it is. Yeah. Psalm 49.

Tim Mackie (43:28)

Yeah. As for the wicked, death will be their shepherd. But God will redeem my nephesh. He'll redeem my nephesh from the grave, for he will take me. That's what it says.

John Dyer (43:42)

He will take me.

Tim Mackie (43:44)

So what does it mean for God to redeem, rescue your body from the grave? And again we think, yeah, through the.

John Dyer (43:53)

Pearly gates to eternal bliss.

Tim Mackie (43:56)

So think I'm going home. So redeem is vocabulary from the Exodus story and rescue. So what does it mean to be rescued from the power of death? It doesn't mean that you. I'm trying to think if you use the Exodus as an image, if you're enslaved in Egypt, you're saved out of.

John Dyer (44:16)

Slavery and your status changes.

Tim Mackie (44:18)

And your status changes and you go into the promised land.

John Dyer (44:21)

Yeah.

Tim Mackie (44:21)

So here it's, you're redeemed from having to die and then your status changes so that you can be alive. Can be alive, yeah.

John Dyer (44:32)

So there's a resurrection hope here.

Tim Mackie (44:34)

Correct. That's where these are the bedrock, or use a different metaphor, the seed bed.

John Dyer (44:40)

Right.

Tim Mackie (44:40)

And I'm not making this up. The Apostle Peter thought so too. This is the top of page 8. Psalm 16 was really important for the early Christians and how help them find language about Jesus. This is right after Peter is giving a message and he quotes the section of Psalm 16 that we just read. And here's this commentary. He says, fellow Israelites, I tell you confidently, the patriarch David died. He was buried. His tomb's with us to this day. But he was a prophet and he knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his seed descendants on the throne. Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah in the quotes from the Psalm that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body See, decay. God raised this Jesus to life and we're all witnesses.

John Dyer (45:34)

So Peter looked at this hope that he saw in the Psalms of Resurrection and he said, look, that's what happened to Jesus.

Tim Mackie (45:41)

This poem wasn't talking about the afterlife. This poem was talking about the hope of God rescuing someone into new physical existence.

John Dyer (45:51)

It's not afterlife, it's more life.

Tim Mackie (45:53)

Yeah, totally. Yeah. Or what scholar N.T. wright, he has a clever phrase, this fat book on the resurrection. He called it life after life after death. So in other words, life after death, life after death, resurrection, life after life after death. I'm so confused. Well, because by definition, if I die, if my body gives out the hope and the trust is that what happened to Jesus will happen to me. But most likely there's going to be a time gap like there has been for many followers of Jesus. So where are those people?

John Dyer (46:33)

Oh, okay. Life, afterlife.

Tim Mackie (46:35)

What is the afterlife existence of those?

John Dyer (46:38)

And it's very. We have no idea.

Tim Mackie (46:40)

It's very, very obscure. Here we go. In the Old Testament, it's just. There's no. Nothing.

John Dyer (46:45)

He will take me.

Tim Mackie (46:46)

Yeah. And then what we know is that death won't be the end. You've redeemed me from the power of the grave.

John Dyer (46:53)

And so if that's afterlife, that's life after death, then what the resurrection is, is really the life after that.

Tim Mackie (47:00)

Life after death.

John Dyer (47:01)

The life after the life after death.

Tim Mackie (47:02)

And then Paul, right, in those handful of passages, 2. And then once with Jesus, right to the guy next to him on the cross. Today you'll be with me in paradise.

John Dyer (47:14)

Yeah, that's the afterlife.

Tim Mackie (47:15)

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. So that's life after death, according to the New Testament, is to be with Jesus.

John Dyer (47:23)

Yeah. So we're all obsessed with what is life after death.

Tim Mackie (47:26)

That's right.

John Dyer (47:27)

And he writes clever turn of phrases to say we should be more obsessed with the life that comes after life.

Tim Mackie (47:33)

And what the biblical authors are actually talking about is the life that comes after life, life after death. Come on, that's clever. You get this.

John Dyer (47:43)

Clever.

Tim Mackie (47:43)

Yeah.

John Dyer (47:44)

So we should stop talking about the afterlife. We should start talking about the life after.

Tim Mackie (47:47)

Yeah, that's right.

John Dyer (47:48)

There's life after life.

Tim Mackie (47:49)

Yeah, that's right. Life after. Yeah.

Michelle Jones (47:55)

That was from our 2017 Nefesh Soul series, episode three, titled what Happens After We Die. Check out our podcast archives to listen to the entire series. Well, that's it for today's episode. I hope you enjoyed listening to this hyperlink edition of Redemption. You can find links for the full episodes we sampled in the show. Notes Keep an eye out for an upcoming theme video on Redemption, along with a collection of resources for deeper study. You can find everything on our app or@bibleproject.com I'm Michelle Jones and there's a whole team of people working to bring this podcast to life every week. For a full list of who's involved, check out the show credits on the episode. Description bibleproject is a crowdfunded project. We exist to help people experience the Bible as a unified story that leads. Everything we make is free because of the generous support of thousands of people just like you. Thanks for being a part of this with us.

John Dyer (49:01)

Hey, my name is Zach Tamez and I'm from Bourbon, a, Illinois.

Tim Mackie (49:04)

Hi, my name is Janie and I'm from Sisters, Oregon.

John Dyer (49:09)

I first heard about Bible Project when.

Tim Mackie (49:12)

I was in seminary years ago.

John Dyer (49:14)

I first heard about the Bible Project from my dad. I get to work with college students experiencing scripture for the first time in their life in a real way, and I get to point out the bibleproject as a great resource for them as they begin to understand the story of their life as part of a kingdom narrative.

Tim Mackie (49:31)

My favorite thing about bibleproject is that it reaches into this right brain world that we've got and help teach us the truth of scriptures. We believe the Bible is a unified.

John Dyer (49:44)

Story that leads to Jesus. Bibleproject is a nonprofit funded by people like me. Find free videos, articles, podcasts, classes, and more on the Bibleproject app and@bibleproject.com.

Tim Mackie (50:08)

It.