Jesus’ Death as Redemption in Romans

Summary

BibleProject Podcast Episode Summary: "Jesus’ Death as Redemption in Romans"

Release Date: July 28, 2025

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Introduction to Redemption Narratives

00:05 - 02:07

In the opening segments, Tim Mackey introduces the foundational concept of redemption in the Bible, highlighting the Exodus story where God rescues Israel from Egyptian slavery (00:05). He contrasts this with the Roman occupation during Jesus' time, noting that while the Israelites yearn for a Moses-like deliverer to overthrow Rome (00:25), Jesus instead focuses on a different kind of liberation—rescuing humanity from death itself (00:31). John Collins elaborates on this by explaining that Jesus perceives a deeper, cosmic bondage beyond the immediate political oppression by Herod and Rome (00:47).

The Shift from Political to Cosmic Redemption

02:21 - 10:06

As the discussion progresses, Collins and Mackey delve into how Jesus' death serves as a means of redemption. Unlike Moses, who confronts Pharaoh to free Israel, Jesus surrenders his life to confront death and sin (02:07). Collins points out that Jesus symbolically explains his impending death at the Passover meal by stating, “This is my body broken for you. This is my blood shed for you” (01:17). This act is not a direct challenge to Roman authority but a profound spiritual redemption.

Understanding Paul's Redemption Language

10:06 - 23:55

The conversation transitions to the Apostle Paul's extensive use of redemption vocabulary in his letters, particularly in Romans chapters three and six. Mackey and Collins explore how Paul frames Jesus' death and resurrection as a repossession of humanity, freeing believers from sin and death (01:37). A notable moment occurs at Romans 3:23, where Paul declares, “For all have sinned and have failed to attain the divine honor” (23:36). This emphasizes the universal human failure to live up to God's glory, setting the stage for the need for redemption.

The Story Within the Story: Passover and Redemption

08:01 - 36:35

Mackey reflects on the Passover narrative as a "story within a story," illustrating how the final plague—death of the firstborn—introduces a cosmic confrontation beyond Pharaoh (08:28). Collins connects this to the sacrifice of a blameless life, paralleling Jesus' willing surrender (09:40). They discuss how these layered stories in the Bible use design patterns and thematic links to convey complex theological ideas.

Further, Collins emphasizes that Paul uses baptism as a metaphor for believers' union with Jesus' death and resurrection, symbolizing their transfer from death to life (33:21). Mackey grapples with understanding how death can be a means of release, while Collins explains that through Jesus' resurrection, death no longer holds authority over him, enabling the redemption of believers (38:06).

The Mechanics of Redemption: Surrender and Exchange

36:35 - 53:24

The hosts explore the transactional nature of redemption. Collins clarifies that in the biblical narrative, God does not owe death anything; rather, redemption is an act of love where Jesus surrenders his blameless life to free humanity (45:37). Mackey visualizes death as a "cloud of chaos" that chains individuals, whereas Jesus’ act of passing through death symbolizes a confrontation that liberates believers (40:28).

Romans 6: Dying to Sin and Living to God

28:12 - 44:33

Focusing on Romans 6, Collins explains how Paul addresses the misconception that grace allows continual sinning. He asserts that believers, having died with Jesus through baptism, are now alive to God and should not let sin reign in their mortal bodies (31:13). This represents a transfer from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God, emphasizing the eradication of sin’s authority through Christ’s resurrection (35:39).

The Role of Blood and Sacrifice in Redemption

45:29 - 53:24

The discussion turns to the significance of blood in redemption narratives. Collins interprets blood as the means of exchange—symbolizing the blameless life surrendered by Jesus (46:03). Mackey questions whether this implies a "price paid" to death, to which Collins responds that redemption is not about paying off a debt but about God entering the realm of death to rescue humanity (47:43). They conclude that Jesus’ union with believers through his death and resurrection enables the transfer of ownership from death to life (53:14).

Conclusion and Forward Look

55:30 - 57:51

In wrapping up, Collins summarizes the intricate relationship between sin, death, and redemption, reinforcing how Jesus’ death and resurrection facilitate the transfer from bondage to liberation (55:08). Mackey and Collins acknowledge the complexity of Paul's theology but emphasize the essential truth that redemption transforms human existence by transferring ownership from death to life through Jesus (55:30).

Looking ahead, the hosts preview the next episode, which will continue exploring the Letter to the Romans and delve into the Letter to the Hebrews, further unpacking the meaning of Jesus' death as redemption (56:20).

Notable Quotes:

• Tim Mackey (00:31): "But Jesus focuses in on a different type of liberation. Not a rescue from Rome, but a rescue from death itself."

• John Collins (01:17): "This is my body broken for you. This is my blood shed for you."

• John Collins (23:36): "For all have sinned and have failed to attain the divine honor."

• John Collins (31:13): "Consider yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God."

• John Collins (45:37): "Redemption is not because God owed death anything. It is depicted as an oppressive pharaoh, a ruler, somebody who rules us."

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This episode of the BibleProject Podcast offers a profound exploration of the concept of redemption in the context of Paul's writings in Romans. By contrasting Old Testament deliverance with Jesus' cosmic redemption, the hosts illuminate the depth and complexity of theological themes that underpin Christian faith.

Transcript

[Tim Mackey]

The foundational redemption story in the Bible is when God rescued Israel from their slavery to Egypt and led them into freedom. And in the time of Jesus, Israel is under the thumb of Rome. And so Israel looks at that past redemption story and hopes for a future redemption.

[John Collins]

A Moses Exodus style redemption. This is what people think Jesus is here to do.

[Tim Mackey]

Everyone expects him to confront Rome and overthrow the corrupt power structures so that they can live free in the land. But Jesus focuses in on a different type of liberation. Not a rescue from Rome, but a rescue from death itself.

[John Collins]

He saw a deeper, more cosmic bondage of which Herod and Rome were just the latest manifestations.

[Tim Mackey]

But then Jesus dies and somehow his death becomes a means of redemption. But how does that work?

[John Collins]

There's no lecture Jesus gives on the meaning of his death, but Jesus explained symbolically at the Passover meal with the bread and the cup, this is my body broken for you. This is my blood shed for you.

[Tim Mackey]

But later in the New Testament, one writer in particular offers a much further, further explanation on how this all works.

[John Collins]

The apostle Paul elaborated and developed the redemption vocabulary set of ideas more than any early Christian writer that we have, his letters are packed with redemption language.

[Tim Mackey]

In Romans chapters three and six, Paul crafts an elaborate explanation of how Jesus, through his death and resurrection, lays claim on us, repossesses us, and takes back what is rightfully his, Jesus.

[John Collins]

Jesus willingly enters into that death realm as an act of love and surrenders his life to join us in death and then bring us out through the other side. Death has a rightful claim on me, but death has no rightful claim over the Messiah.

[Tim Mackey]

Today, Tim Mackey and I unpack the Apostle Paul's redemption language in the Letter to the Romans. Thanks for joining us. Here we go. Hey, Tim.

[John Collins]

Hi, John. Hello. Hello.

[Tim Mackey]

We are going to read some passages from Paul's letters. Today we're in a discussion about the theme of redemption in the Bible. We've been calling it that because that's kind of the key word that we've been focusing on. But regardless of the word that you use, we're talking about the idea that you, or something that you own, should own, is owned by something else. Someone else.

[John Collins]

Yeah. The story begins with something that rightfully belongs to you, has ended up in the possession of an other.

[Tim Mackey]

There it is.

[John Collins]

Yep.

[Tim Mackey]

Thank you. Redemption is the act of transferring the ownership back to the rightful place.

[John Collins]

That's it.

[Tim Mackey]

That's the idea. You can use the word redeem, but you could also see how that could be framed as a liberation story, a rescue story.

[John Collins]

It's redeem. When I'm describing the action from my point of view as the owner who is repossessing. When I restore it back to my possession, then I call it redemption. But if the thing being redeemed is a person, then you can describe it from their point of view. As you could say being redeemed in the passive, but you could also just call it I'm being released. Or you could say, ooh, if they were in a really bad or dangerous situation, then you could call that release a salvation or a rescue. So we've covered how this word fits into the storyline of the Bible, the Exodus stories. And there Pharaoh, King of Egypt, has wrongfully taken Israel into his own possession. But Israel's God's possession. So God redeems Israel to himself, transfers.

[Tim Mackey]

Them back into rightful possession.

[John Collins]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackey]

As free people who get to live in their own land.

[John Collins]

That's right, Yep. So we just finished in a previous conversation, the story of how that Exodus style redemption gets picked up and employed as a theme in the Gospel according to Luke as a way of telling the Jesus story. And what we saw there was at the beginning and ending of Luke, a Moses. Exodus style redemption is what people think Jesus is here to do.

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah. It's their expectation that the deliverer will come and confront Pharaoh and release the people from the bondage of the pharaoh.

[John Collins]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackey]

And so in Jesus day, it was Rome and Herod's government in league with Rome that they needed to be released from. At the end of the Gospel, you get the story of the couple who are walking away from Jerusalem after Jesus had died. And they're just so confused because Jesus didn't do that.

[John Collins]

We thought he was the one who would redeem Israel is what they say.

[Tim Mackey]

What Jesus was doing actually was a release. And let me show you how we don't get that Bible study.

[John Collins]

Yeah, exactly.

[Tim Mackey]

But you did bring us back to the Gospel of Luke and show how there's all of these stories with Jesus doing what we would just call miracles.

[John Collins]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackey]

Well, we looked at two examples and what he sees is that he's not just healing people's bodies, he's not just forgiving people's sins, he's actually releasing people from a slavery of sorts. And it's not to Rome ultimately, and it's not because of Herod, ultimately. He calls it the Satan.

[John Collins]

Yeah. Being in bondage to the enemy. The enemy, the cosmic enemy.

[Tim Mackey]

The power of darkness.

[John Collins]

Yeah. Which doesn't mean that Jesus didn't care about or didn't think that political or Economic oppression wasn't important. Rather that he saw a deeper, more cosmic bondage, of which Herod and Rome were just the latest kind of manifestations.

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah. So in Moses story, the Pharaoh is the pharaoh, and he needs to confront the Pharaoh. In Jesus story, there is a bigger, badder Pharaoh that Jesus had to confront. And to do it, he died, suffered and died, and then came to life. And that was his confrontation with that power.

[John Collins]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackey]

And so what's that all about?

[John Collins]

What's that all about? That's right. So the Gospel of Luke is just giving us the account that that is what happened. And Jesus explained symbolically in a dense way, at the Passover meal with the bread and the cup, this is my body, you know, broken for you. This is my blood shed for you. So he's appealing to the symbolism of blood and bread during Passover. During Passover, yeah. So signaling all kinds of things with the Passover lamb, which, I mean, gets us back into this word group of redemption. Because one thing we haven't talked about in this episode yet in our summary was that sometimes something of value will be exchanged so that the redeemed thing can be released back into rightful possession. Yeah. And God doesn't pay Pharaoh anything, but God does hand all of Egypt and everyone in it, all of the firstborn sons over to death.

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah. Can I actually say about this? Oh, please. Okay, so I've been reflecting on this. The way I've been making sense of the Passover night in relation to the Exodus story is it feels like a story within a story. Right. You don't actually have to have the Passover story. I mean, it is the hinge point in which Pharaoh is like, okay, enough with the plagues. Right. And so I'll let you go. But even there, he still chases him down. And so there's another confrontation.

[John Collins]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackey]

But it's almost like this story world within the story, because it's like a new confrontation all of a sudden. It's no longer just God confronting Pharaoh.

[John Collins]

Oh, yes, that's right.

[Tim Mackey]

It's now the Destroyer.

[John Collins]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackey]

This new character called the Destroyer coming. And he's confronting everyone.

[John Collins]

Right, that's right. All of the firstborn sons.

[Tim Mackey]

All the firstborn sons.

[John Collins]

Everyone's firstborn sons.

[Tim Mackey]

Which is a way to mess with every family.

[John Collins]

Everybody. That's right. Yeah, exactly Right.

[Tim Mackey]

And so we're no longer just dealing with Egypt's leader. We're dealing with some bigger cosmic darkness.

[John Collins]

Death.

[Tim Mackey]

Death. And it's coming for everyone.

[John Collins]

Yes.

[Tim Mackey]

And that's when we're introduced to the Exchange.

[John Collins]

Yeah, it's great.

[Tim Mackey]

That's when the blood and the whole thing.

[John Collins]

That's right.

[Tim Mackey]

And it feels like a story within a story to me.

[John Collins]

Yeah. Then God provides a blameless representative life that can die and cover for the lives of the people in the house and therefore the blood on the door. And so a life is surrendered willingly as a gift, like God provides it.

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah. Everyone needs to go in their houses. Blood on the door. Everyone has a chance. Yeah, That's a little story world in and of itself.

[John Collins]

Yeah, that's right.

[Tim Mackey]

But then it's plopped down as the final plague to get Israel out of Egypt. And so Passover meal becomes really important and part of the Exodus story.

[John Collins]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Mackey]

And so they're very connected. But it feels like a story within a story to me.

[John Collins]

Yeah, totally. That's a great way of putting it, what you're saying, maybe knowing it, not knowing it. This is how design patterns work in the biblical story, where you'll be within a certain cycle of the biblical story. And you've worked through pretty much the story of the whole Bible just within that little section of scenes. And it's a way of the biblical authors putting the story within the story. That's exactly right. So this would complicate things to bring up Abraham and Isaac And Jesus. Genesis 22. But it's a.

[Tim Mackey]

Well, why don't you do that?

[John Collins]

No, but it's a similar point in that God brings a reckoning for what Abraham and Sarah did to their Egyptian slave and her son Hagar and Ishmael, which becomes kind of like a plague on the house of Abraham. It's the way biblical authors work, which is packing stories with hyperlinks through vocabulary to each other.

[Tim Mackey]

I see.

[John Collins]

And. And thematic links and so on. So when God provides that ram that can be offered in the place of Isaac, that is playing the same role in terms of the story within the story as the Passover lamb. My point is just in both those stories, God is holding someone accountable and handing them over to death. But then God is the one who provides this life that is surrendered, this blameless life that is surrendered, so that those in the house or on the mountain can escape death. And that is at work in so many different stories of the Hebrew Bible. Passover is the specific one that Jesus activates, though, and it's indirect in Luke's account of the Gospel. The Good News, meaning that that's about as explicit statement about the meaning of Jesus death as you ever get in the Gospel of Luke when he does the Lord's supper is the Passover meal. Passover meal. There's no, like, explanation or lecture Jesus gives on the meaning of his death. But the narrative itself and the way it hyperlinks to Passover and the story of Isaac is important.

[Tim Mackey]

There's Moses confrontation with Pharaoh, but then there's also the blood's confrontation with.

[John Collins]

Yeah, that's good.

[Tim Mackey]

That's great.

[John Collins]

That's good, John.

[Tim Mackey]

They're both happening.

[John Collins]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackey]

And so what people were expecting was Jesus to confront the pharaoh.

[John Collins]

Ah, yeah, yeah.

[Tim Mackey]

But instead, Jesus blood confronts the destroyer.

[John Collins]

Yeah, sure.

[Tim Mackey]

But by doing that, he confronts Pharaoh. He confronts Pharaoh.

[John Collins]

Exactly. Thank you. That's fantastic. That's really great. In other words, Passover is like the story within the story. Yeah. That helps you reframe the outer story. That is very similar to how the Gospels are working. People think that by redeeming Israel that Jesus will confront Herod and Pilate, but in fact, he confronts the power of sin and death and the Satan. And in so doing, he launches a movement into history and accomplishes something on a cosmic level that will have huge implications for Herod and for Pilate, but for even more, for, like, everybody. So you know that first generation of followers of Jesus, the people he appointed Jesus appointed to represent him and go share the story. These people called the sent ones the apostles. They were the ones to work it out with the aid of the Holy Spirit of how to talk about the story, how to tell it. And so what we get in the New Testament letters then are these snippets or teachings or restatements of the whole story, you know, as they're instructing and writing to these churches. The apostle Paul elaborated and developed the redemption vocabulary set of ideas more than any early Christian writer that we have. His letters are packed with redemption language. And what's cool is sometimes he'll just allude to it or use the redemption words. He's just begging the question, like, what do you mean? There's some story underneath that. Sometimes it'll just tantalize you with just a little description using the word redemption. And there's one letter where he really begins to unpack what he means in multiple places. And that's his letter to the churches in Rome. So let's turn our attention first to some of these real short allusions to the redemption idea in Paul's letters, because they set up kind of of an interesting puzzle that I think will help lead us to the letter to the Romans. Okay. So Paul, often when he opens his letters in the first paragraph or two, he'll bring up what are some of the key themes that he's going to be working out throughout the other parts of the letter. The letter to the Galatians, which is likely one of his earliest letters, opens with this greeting to the churches in Galatia. Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus, the Messiah, who gave himself for our sins so that he might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the desire of God our Father. So he doesn't use the word redeem, but he has this little story. He's just packed a little story into what he means when he says the Lord Jesus, the Messiah, you know, the one who gave himself, gave himself for our sins so that he could rescue us from this present evil age.

[Tim Mackey]

The present evil age, yeah.

[John Collins]

So we've got a Moses figure, power of darkness. We got a Moses figure.

[Tim Mackey]

Okay.

[John Collins]

Lord Jesus, Messiah. We've got a Pharaoh figure, the present evil age, the present evil age. And then we have this rescue, rescue and the means of rescue. He rescued us by giving himself for our sins.

[Tim Mackey]

And when you have to give something to rescue someone, you're talking redemption category, right?

[John Collins]

Yeah, exactly. So he doesn't use the word redemption, but the ideas are all there because.

[Tim Mackey]

The gift, that's the meanings of exchange. That's the kufer.

[John Collins]

That's right. Yeah. He gave something of value in order to rescue, and what he gave is his life. His life for our sins. What does that mean? Yeah, so he's got a story underneath there. So we'll talk about it more. But the point is, he's got kind.

[Tim Mackey]

Of a fixed, narrative, tightly packaged little story there.

[John Collins]

That's right. In another place he does. This is early in the letter to the Colossians, and he does use the word redemption here. But it's going to feel like the same type of story. He, that is the Son of God, rescued us. So there's rescue from the authority of darkness.

[Tim Mackey]

New turn of phrase.

[John Collins]

Yep. So that's the Pharaoh figure, and he transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved son.

[Tim Mackey]

The transfer language is very clear here.

[John Collins]

Yeah. In whom? That beloved son is the one in whom we have redemption. That is the forgiveness of sins.

[Tim Mackey]

You could have redemption in something.

[John Collins]

Yeah. Or maybe by whom.

[Tim Mackey]

By whom, okay.

[John Collins]

It's describing the beloved son.

[Tim Mackey]

Okay.

[John Collins]

So you've got a little story here. I was under the authority of darkness.

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah.

[John Collins]

That was my Pharaoh. Somebody rescued me.

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah.

[John Collins]

And that rescue involved a transfer from the authority of darkness into a kingdom. Whose kingdom? Well, the kingdom of the son who's Beloved by the Father. And actually it's that son is the one by whom or through whom in whom we have the redemption. I guess that's the funky way from. For us, it seems funky, but he's saying the son is the one who brought about the redemption. He's the one who redeemed.

[Tim Mackey]

And then there's this little phrase at the end, the forgiveness of sins, referring to the redemption.

[John Collins]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackey]

Okay. So another way to frame the redemption.

[John Collins]

Is forgiveness of sins. Yeah. So he actually has three words to describe this repossession he has. He rescued.

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah.

[John Collins]

So that's referring to out of danger. He transferred us. It's about this movement from, like, one.

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah. From death to life.

[John Collins]

Yep. And then we have redemption, which is about this reclaiming or repossessing. And that redemption is about the release of sins. It's the same phrase as the gospel of the release of sins in whom we have redemption. The release of our sins. Yeah. So apparently our sin was something that was keeping us under the authority of darkness.

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah. It's interesting because I think you've talked about this before. Like Genesis 2, we're introduced to the snake. Genesis 4, we're introduced to the word sin. Right.

[John Collins]

Yeah, exactly. Right.

[Tim Mackey]

And so first, it's the deceptive power of the snake that lures them away from God. But then in Genesis chapter four, with Cain and his anger and jealousy, it's sin that turns into murder.

[John Collins]

Sin's the animal crouching at the door, trying to.

[Tim Mackey]

So these ideas kind of get merged. So to be under the power of the enemy, darkness is to also then be under the power of the sin.

[John Collins]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackey]

What does it mean to be released from sin?

[John Collins]

And with Cain, sin is both something that's like a. A possibility and a voice in his mind about something he could do.

[Tim Mackey]

The crouching tiger.

[John Collins]

And it lures him. It deceives him, like the snake. But then also it's something that he does that now he is accountable for before God. So this man. This is a dense little. Two verses, but you can see there's a whole storyline. We have morally failed, sinned, haven't done right by God and neighbor. And so we find ourselves trapped under the authority of darkness. And it's dangerous. We're dying. It's terrible. We're in slavery. But through the son who's beloved by the Father, we have been rescued, brought out of danger. We've been transferred, like, from one kingdom to citizenship in a new kingdom, and we have been repossessed by being released from our sins.

[Tim Mackey]

You could talk about release from your sins. You could also talk about release from the power of darkness. And are we talking about the same thing in two different ways? Are we talking about two different aspects of the same thing?

[John Collins]

Yeah, that's a great question. So not that Paul is answering our questions, but the letter to the Romans. But in the letter to the Romans, he unpacks the story multiple times and from multiple angles. And let's let him talk.

[Tim Mackey]

Okay?

[John Collins]

And just keep that question at the foreground. Don't let go of it. But I want to go to Romans now to see how he unpacks the story. End of the story here. So in Paul's letter to the Roman churches, we note the problem Paul is addressing is that Israelite and Jewish and non Jewish followers of Jesus are, are having a really difficult time getting along and living and celebrating life together in Jesus the Messiah. That's the crisis Paul's dealing with. And he wants these churches to be a unified network so that they can help further the missionary work and the spread of the good news of Jesus further west onto Spain is what he says where he hopes to go. And so a big part of what he's going to work out in the letter is, listen, Israelites, non Israelites, like nobody has privilege over each other. You are all equal before the Messiah. We are all equally failures to love God and love neighbor. And in fact, Israel is even hyper accountable for its failure to love God and love neighbor because God gave them the covenant in the Torah. And so he has this big line of thought that he starts to bring in to a close at the end of chapter three, where the first time the word redemption occurs. And he starts talking about how when it comes to failing to love God and others, there's no distinction between Jewish and non Jewish. There's just humans. And he has this famous line, that's.

[Tim Mackey]

What Passover night's all about, isn't it?

[John Collins]

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Famous line, Romans 3:23. For all have sinned and have failed to attain the divine honor.

[Tim Mackey]

All have sinned and have failed to attain the divine honor, the glory of God. You said of glory, divine honor, literally.

[John Collins]

The glory of God. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

[Tim Mackey]

All have sinned and have failed instead fallen short. Failed.

[John Collins]

Yeah. If you fall short of something, it means you didn't get to something. You didn't get to the goal you ought to have. Yeah, that was like the purpose.

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah.

[John Collins]

Your purpose is the glory of God.

[Tim Mackey]

Failure is a little more intense.

[John Collins]

I think when most People read certainly when I read Romans 3:23 as a new follower of Jesus, what I thought, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God meant God has a standard of moral glory and perfection. I fall short of that.

[Tim Mackey]

Okay.

[John Collins]

I'm not moral, which is equal to sin.

[Tim Mackey]

I see it.

[John Collins]

Sinning is failing to live up to God's perfect level of glory. That's what it meant in my mind. I'm just saying that's what it meant in English to me.

[Tim Mackey]

Well, that's actually also how I was taught it.

[John Collins]

Oh, okay, okay.

[Tim Mackey]

And so you're saying that's not quite it.

[John Collins]

Well, based on a whole bunch of.

[Tim Mackey]

Things he says, it also sounds right.

[John Collins]

Romans 8. What we know is that the glory of God is something that God has destined humans to embody, to be glorified, and to share in God's glory.

[Tim Mackey]

Okay. Yes.

[John Collins]

Our failure to attain the glory of God is that we fail to become the images of God that we are made to be, but have sinned. Failed to be. Yeah.

[Tim Mackey]

So one way to frame it is like there's this moral expectation that I've failed, and that's like God's perfection or glory. Then the other way to frame it is I actually am called as God's image to embody that. But then we're still talking about a failure of being able to do it.

[John Collins]

Totally.

[Tim Mackey]

Both ways of framing it, we're talking about moral failure.

[John Collins]

That's right. But on my reading from many years ago, the glory of God was something about God uniquely. And really only I failed to live up to God's glorious perfection. And what the glory of God means in Paul's letters, especially Romans, is the honored, elevated status that God destines humans for as his glorious images.

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah. Not some, like, elite moral status that, like, God expects because he's perfect. And so, like, if you're gonna hang with him, you're gonna have to somehow figure that out.

[John Collins]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackey]

And the story of the Bible is God saying, I'm actually giving that over to you from the beginning. You get to participate in that, and then it's a rejection of it.

[John Collins]

The glory of God is a shorthand for the depiction of ideal humanity in Genesis, chapter one. The image of God.

[Tim Mackey]

The image of God.

[John Collins]

Yeah. So both Israelites and non Israelites have failed to attain what God destined them for.

[Tim Mackey]

The purpose of humanity.

[John Collins]

That's right. And how. Well, he gave some portraits in chapter one. We give away our dignity to our own created objects and then give our allegiance and worship to those things. And then Just like letting our appetites, physical appetites for food and sexual. Let them rule us and we become slaves to them. So that's one mode. But then also there is a more cosmic problem that Paul's tapping into when he uses the word sin. We'll talk about that in a minute. All that to say is that's the problem and it's everybody. But then he also says, so everybody's sinned and failed to attain the divine honor. But all can be or are being declared right, righteous by the gift of his grace. So the failure is universal, and the gift of God by his grace is universal. To be declared as someone who's right with God. And how did that happen? Through the redemption that is in the Messiah, Jesus. So let's just piece together the logic here. Okay, so we've got a bad situation. There's no Pharaoh. There's just we've sinned and failed to attain the divine honor. That's the problem.

[Tim Mackey]

No Pharaoh mentioned.

[John Collins]

Right. It's kind of implicit there, but that's the problem.

[Tim Mackey]

And so underneath of that, you could say is something he's not talking about, which is now being in possession of sin and death.

[John Collins]

Exactly. That's under the surface.

[Tim Mackey]

That's under the surface.

[John Collins]

He's gonna bring it explicit in a couple chapters where he retells the story.

[Tim Mackey]

But for redemption to make sense, you kind of have to bring that up into there.

[John Collins]

Yeah, that's why it's interesting trying to put the story of Romans 3, 23 and 24. So we're in some bad situation, sin failing to divine honor. We've been transferred into a good situation, which is being declared as right with God by being given a gift of grace. And how did I get from one to the other? He calls it redemption, which is in the Messiah, Jesus. So there was a reclaiming to move between those two states. What you mean, Paul? What do you mean? So when he gets to Romans chapter 6, Paul addresses an accusation that's been leveled against him by other followers of Jesus, specifically Jewish followers of Jesus who think that by not requiring non Israelites to become circumcised and keep kosher and the purity laws.

[Tim Mackey]

Keep the Sabbath.

[John Collins]

Keep the Sabbath. So by not taking on a Jewish ethnic and cultural identity in order to follow Israel's Messiah, Jesus, Paul took a different stance. This is what the Book of Acts. Big controversy. So people who thought that Paul was playing fast and loose with that biblical heritage of the laws of the covenant.

[Tim Mackey]

Slippery slope, Paul.

[John Collins]

Slippery, yes. He was accused of being on the slippery slope.

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah.

[John Collins]

So then he was accused, how are.

[Tim Mackey]

You going to attain the divine glory?

[John Collins]

Yeah, that's right.

[Tim Mackey]

If you're not telling people to keep the Sabbath.

[John Collins]

Of all things. That's right.

[Tim Mackey]

Of all things.

[John Collins]

Yes. So then he was misunderstood by people to mean, like, listen, you can sin or not sin, it doesn't matter. God's going to give you his gift of grace no matter what.

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah. That's all the way to the bottom of the slope.

[John Collins]

In fact, the more we sin, the more God has to forgive us. And doesn't that just glorify God? So this is how people misunderstood Paul.

[Tim Mackey]

Okay.

[John Collins]

And so he opens Romans 6 by saying, what are we saying? That you should keep on living in moral failure so that God's grace can increase. And, you know, he says his famous line in Greek, may it never be God forbid, I think is how the NIV translates it. And so then he just states this claim that the rest of the chapter is unpacking the logic. Underneath it is, how can we who have died to sin still live in it? Oh, my goodness.

[Tim Mackey]

When you look at this through the theme of this transfer from death to life.

[John Collins]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes.

[Tim Mackey]

That's what this is about. The good news is the transfer from slavery and sin to this new type of life in the Beloved Son, as he said.

[John Collins]

Yeah, that's right.

[Tim Mackey]

If that's what it's about, then it makes no sense to say, let's continue to then live in the other kingdom.

[John Collins]

Under the authority of darkness in Colossians.

[Tim Mackey]

Then you're missing the whole point.

[John Collins]

Yes. You don't belong to that anymore.

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah. You've been freed from that. And the means of release is grace and forgiveness. And I guess he has this theology which we haven't really got into, but it's this freedom that the wisdom of the Torah can be alive in your life. And it doesn't have to mean that you eat kosher or strictly keep the Sabbath the way that has been done.

[John Collins]

Yeah. For non Israelites.

[Tim Mackey]

For non Israelites, that's right.

[John Collins]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackey]

And so for an Israelite to look at that and go, that's a moral failure to not keep the Sabbath. So are you saying then I could just do anything and that's just gonna make God's grace even more significant?

[John Collins]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackey]

And if we're gonna praise God for his grace, then we can just praise God more for more grace. And Paul's like, you're missing the point.

[John Collins]

Yeah. How can we who have died to sin still live in it?

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah, you've transferred out. And he Thinks of that as a death to that way of being.

[John Collins]

Yeah. So how have we transferred out, though? When did I die? To sin?

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah.

[John Collins]

What's that about? Well, then, so he unpacks that. He says, well, y' all were baptized. And what was baptism about? It was joining the Messiah in dying, going into the flood waters, and the symbolism of the baptism, that the whole thing we don't have time to talk about. But he calls that being baptized into the Messiah's death. Then he calls baptism being buried with him through baptism into death.

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah.

[John Collins]

So remember, this is what Jesus said at the end of Luke. How did he accomplish cosmic redemption from the cosmic pharaoh? By suffering and dying and then entering into glory, death and resurrection. So here Paul's activating that story. The Messiah died and he was raised, as he says right here, so that just as the Messiah was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, then here. So if you're buried with him in baptism, you're buried and you might walk in the newness of life. So your life has now become closely joined to the story arc of Jesus life. Now if we are united to him in his death, because remember, he just said we've died to sin.

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah.

[John Collins]

So he just established, remember you died with Jesus and you were raised with him through baptism. That's a whole thing. But he's just taken for granted that that's what baptism means.

[Tim Mackey]

Okay.

[John Collins]

Then he says, well, if we've been united with him in his death, then we'll be united with him in his resurrection, knowing that our old Adam, our old anthropos, was crucified with him in order that our body of sin might be done away with so that we would no longer be slaves to sin. Because, you know, whoever is dead, well, if you're dead, you're finally liberated from sin. So notice sin and death. This is how Paul's mind works. So we're trying to get what's the unifying story that link all these words together.

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah.

[John Collins]

So the Exodus story is foundational here in terms of like the slots of the Exodus story. Thinking of it as a redemption story. So you've got a pharaoh who wrongfully possesses people, and here he doesn't name the Satan, he just names sin and death. Yeah, Sin and death got you in their clutches.

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah.

[John Collins]

They possess you. They possess the old humanity, the old Adam.

[Tim Mackey]

And what we're being invited into is to be transferred out of that ownership into a new way to a new kingdom. And now he's talking about the means of that transfer.

[John Collins]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackey]

And to talk about that, we're now talking about dying and being buried with Jesus, which this is all new. Right. Like, I'm not prepared for this. As we've done, the theme of redemption.

[John Collins]

Oh, yeah. We're now getting into, like, the logic of redemption. So the inner logic of the storyline, what does the suffering and dying and rising Messiah, how does that accomplish redemption?

[Tim Mackey]

And is there underneath of this something, the way he thinks about death that I think I need to understand? Because when he says, he who has died is freed from sin, like there's a story world in his mind that makes sense of that sentence.

[John Collins]

Exactly.

[Tim Mackey]

When you're dead, you're now free from the bondage of sin. So, like, sin and death own you. You will be released from sin and death. When you're dead.

[John Collins]

Yeah, when you're dead. Because that's what sin and death can do.

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah.

[John Collins]

They kill you.

[Tim Mackey]

They kill you, then it's over. You're released from sin and death. And that's just an interesting story logic that I don't have in my mind. Actually, I'm realizing. Don't think about it that way.

[John Collins]

Yeah. Huh. It's the view of dying as being the extent of what somebody can do to me. Like when we do wrong to each other, if I threaten you with violence to take your stuff, then the reason why you might give me your stuff, even though you don't want to, is because you're afraid of dying. So death has a power over your imagination. But if you're dead, you don't care.

[Tim Mackey]

If I'm dead, I don't care.

[John Collins]

You're freed from that power of death over your imagination. Now here he's linking it so closely to the one who has died and was raised, is freed from sin. Because that's what he's talking about. If we have died with the Messiah, we believe that we will live with him.

[Tim Mackey]

So then there's this next step of saying there is a way of being rescued from death, which is just death, but then you're not really rescued from death. You're just dead.

[John Collins]

You're just dead. Yeah.

[Tim Mackey]

But what if.

[John Collins]

What if.

[Tim Mackey]

What if on the other side of death is a new type of life?

[John Collins]

That's right.

[Tim Mackey]

And that life is no longer enslaved by the power of death.

[John Collins]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackey]

And how do you get there?

[John Collins]

Yeah, that's right.

[Tim Mackey]

And that's what Jesus did somehow.

[John Collins]

Yeah. In fact, the Next sentence, verse 9, the Messiah, having been raised from the dead, will never die again. Death no longer is a ruler over him. Yeah. So here's the ruler and slavery. Language again.

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah.

[John Collins]

The death. He died. He died to sin once and for all. But now the life that he lives, he lives to God. So when we die, we die, die. But when the Son of God dies, he dies and lives. And then sin and death don't have any claim over the one who has died and lived.

[Tim Mackey]

Here's what's really interesting, is when you think of redemption as a transfer of ownership kind of thing. Let's say then, you're under ownership to death. And I want to rescue you from death.

[John Collins]

Yeah. I am owned by death.

[Tim Mackey]

So death's right behind you.

[John Collins]

Okay.

[Tim Mackey]

And you're chained to death.

[John Collins]

Yeah. Help me.

[Tim Mackey]

So I could pull you out, rescue you from death. And now you're alive and you're freed from death.

[John Collins]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackey]

But here what Paul seems to be saying is, like, actually, the only way out is to turn around and go through death.

[John Collins]

Sure. That's right.

[Tim Mackey]

I can't pull you out. Death actually has got too big of a grasp on you. But if you go through death, I could pull you out the other side. Kind of seems like the logic here.

[John Collins]

Yeah. And let's say you. You're the one who wants to redeem me. What if it's like this? It's like death has this claim on me. It's dragging me down. What he calls the body of sin. Like the body, this body, and this mode of existence in this world of moral compromise, it's dying. Death has a claim on me. But what you could do, if you're my redeemer, is surrender what is most valuable. Your life. And what if you surrender your life to death in order to join me in death? And I don't have the ability to raise myself from the dead. But if someone could surrender themselves to death and then pick their life back up again.

[Tim Mackey]

Behind you is death. I just see a wall of death behind you.

[John Collins]

Yep.

[Tim Mackey]

But I'm, like, picturing this, like, cloud of chaos and death, and you're chained to it, and it's sucking you in, and there's no way out.

[John Collins]

And.

[Tim Mackey]

And there's only one way. And now it's through death. Now Jesus is standing over here saying, okay, you're gonna go through death. I can't pull you out on this side, but I can pull you out from the other side.

[John Collins]

Can't pull you out, but I can pull you through.

[Tim Mackey]

I can pull you through. Yeah. But I gotta get on the other side to pull you through.

[John Collins]

Ooh.

[Tim Mackey]

Right. I don't belong on the other side. In fact, that's not gonna pull me through. The only way through death is I've gotta sacrifice myself. Right. I gotta surrender myself to death.

[John Collins]

Surrender. Yeah, that's right. This is related to what's happening with animals on the altar. But that's another kind of story, world.

[Tim Mackey]

Okay. I have to surrender myself to death willingly go through death, because death doesn't actually have any power over me.

[John Collins]

Especially if you're somebody whose very essence is love.

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah. I'm the opposite of death.

[John Collins]

Yes. Sin has no claim on you.

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah. So the reason I will go through death is to then come to the other side so I can pull you through. And in doing that, I'm having a confrontation with death itself.

[John Collins]

That's right.

[Tim Mackey]

Life and death are now in confrontation. And when I go through, it looks like death has taken me out from one angle.

[John Collins]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackey]

But from another angle.

[John Collins]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackey]

Actually, I'm just passing through death.

[John Collins]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Mackey]

And now I'm on the other side. And now I can pull you through death into life because there's life on both sides for the Messiah.

[John Collins]

Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. So maybe just this helpful. And to retell it with a little nuance. Death has no rightful claim over the Messiah. Death has no right to possess the Son of God.

[Tim Mackey]

Right.

[John Collins]

Me as a mortal compromised creature. Death has a rightful claim on me. Clearly. It's like ruling my whole body. So I belong to death. Death's got me. Death has no hold of its own power over the Son of God. And that speaks to the value, the cost of the surrender. But he will surrender his life to death as an act of generosity to go through it on the other side to life, so that he's now given death what death wants. And what you get is the life of the Son of God. Oh, death, now where's your victory? And then he pulls those who are in him, Right. Baptized into him. He pulls humanity through. So in his representative role as the human, he does for the rest of Adam what we are unable to do for ourselves. So verse 11, he just repeats the thing that he said at the beginning. So consider yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God. And don't let sin rule in your mortal body. So you have a body now, and it's dying. It's your mortal body. So your body's claimed by death. But your truest sense of who you are, sin has no power over. So why would you go on living in sin? You died to it because the Messiah died to it and went through it, and you have gone through with him. So what's really interesting is the word redemption is not used in Romans 6, but the storyline is.

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah.

[John Collins]

You have a pharaoh, sin and death, that claims humanity as their possession. You have a Moses figure who simultaneously surrenders his life like the passover lamb, but willingly goes through death. And it's all about, don't let sin and death be your ruler. Don't be enslaved to them. Slavery, Language is all over this, but you can be liberated from those and are one with the Messiah. So that's Romans 6. But remember, this is all unpacking that really dense thing he said in chapter three, which is, listen, everybody sinned, but now everybody can be declared right with God by a grace gift. And that happened through an act of redemption. So Romans 6 is like this. Zoom into the word redemption, and you hear the Exodus story.

[Tim Mackey]

Okay, so that's the redemption. What's the gift? Is the gift simply the surrender, or is there something deeper here too, with the blood?

[John Collins]

Oh, well, blood is the life. The blood is an image of the willingly surrendered blameless life.

[Tim Mackey]

Okay.

[John Collins]

And the blamelessness is important because that means that death has no rightful claim on that life. Cause it's never failed to love God and others.

[Tim Mackey]

I see. So one way to talk about the blood is it's the means of exchange. Right. It's the cofound.

[John Collins]

Oh, the thing of value.

[Tim Mackey]

The thing of value.

[John Collins]

Yeah, the blameless life.

[Tim Mackey]

And then I think when we talk about that, is there some sense that the power of death needs something? Like God actually owes the power of death something?

[John Collins]

No, God doesn't owe death anything. We do.

[Tim Mackey]

We do.

[John Collins]

We owe death our lives within this.

[Tim Mackey]

Story, because you could just think of it as an act of rescue. And to rescue, Jesus had to go through death because he's got to pull us out the other side. And in which case, going through death isn't really a means of exchange or the thing of value. It's just the way to get to the place where he could rescue us.

[John Collins]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tim Mackey]

But there is also seems like some logic around his life stands in as a substitute for our life.

[John Collins]

Yeah. A blameless representative. Death has no rightful claim over the blameless life of the Son of God. Death has a rightful claim on me.

[Tim Mackey]

Let me ask it this way. When Jesus pulls me out of death from the other side into new life, dying with him, does he have the power and ability to pull me out just because he is.

[John Collins]

He's my creator?

[Tim Mackey]

He's my creator.

[John Collins]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackey]

Or is there something even more in that? In order to do it, it's because he made this act of surrender, or am I asking the wrong question?

[John Collins]

Well, are you wanting to fill in this potential gap in how we tell the story to say so? Did God have to owe somebody? Was the son of God obligated to to pay someone else off?

[Tim Mackey]

Because when we talk about purchased by the blood, the way I understood that phrase constantly growing up is there was a price to be paid. Jesus paid that price. And so it's like giving the Grim Reaper, you know, what he needs to let me go.

[John Collins]

Yeah. So there's not a trace of that in the New Testament that God paid off the devil, death or sin. It is depicted as an oppressive pharaoh, a ruler, somebody who rules us. But think within the logic of the biblical story, the Garden of Eden story, the reason humans are given over to the snake and to death to go back to the dust, it's because of God's the one enforcing like that consequence. But God also has the power to willingly enter into that dust and death realm as an act of love and surrender his life to join us in death and then bring us out through the other side. But it's not because God owes death anything. It's because this way of rescuing us, God joins us so we can join God. Yeah, yeah. He becomes what we are so that we can become what he is. To use that classic phrase from Irenaeus. So that's the thing is these economic metaphors are one way of talking about it. Another way of talking about it is this union language. We unite with him in his death so that we can be united with him in his life. His life becomes our life. And now we're to where redemption begins to merge with other themes in Paul, like being in Christ. Like when I buy something at the store, I don't become one with it. You know what I mean? Like I give money to the store because they possess it. But this is more like God redeems it or repossesses it by becoming one with the thing that he wants to possess.

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah. I think the frame that you're trying to shake loose then for me is that because of the debt of my sin, consequences of my sin, someone needs to be paid off. And that someone is death. And one of the ways to think about death being paid off is to sacrifice an animal to satisfy death. And that whole schema of thinking about that's what the sacrificial system was about, and that's what the blood of the lamb was about. Seems like you're trying to shake that loose.

[John Collins]

Well, I'm trying to separate that this Idea of redeeming and the surrendering of a life belongs to this language of redemption with the Exodus story, freedom from slavery, all those as a part of it. What's happening on the altar through the offering of atoning sacrifices is another story world connected to the Garden of Eden story through the symbolism of the tabernacle. And these two, the redemption storyline and the sacrifice return to Eden storyline, like, these are analogies with each other, but I'm trying to pull them apart. Just.

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah, because the Passover lamb wasn't a sacrifice in the temple.

[John Collins]

No. But in a way, the house became the altar and the blood was put on that, just like the blood was put on the altar itself of an animal. So they are analogies to each other. But the point is about a surrendered life over which death has no rightful claim. But someone, as an act of mercy, compassion, and love, offers their own life. But it's not because death is somehow owed. Death is the consequence that God is upholding. God is the one with power over death and life. And so God goes into death in the person of his son. I mean, the reason why we're stuck at this point right here is because. Well, I think it's for lots of reasons, but, I mean, this is like the nub of so many challenges in understanding atonement and this meaning of Jesus life and death and why there's so many debates about it. It's because the earliest Christians had these variety of words with attached story worlds, and they used all of them. Forgiveness, redemption, salvation, sacrifice. And, you know, there was never a fully agreed upon definition of, like, finding some other language for what all these words mean by the early church. You know, all the early councils of the church never worked out some abstract definition of what all of this means. The Trinity was their way of working it out. And so the early church's way of getting to the heart of this is to say God became human so that humans could be restored to the divine honor as divine images of God. And one way to think about it is how we purchase things. But it also is like tweaking, redefining what it means to purchase something.

[Tim Mackey]

Well, at the bottom of it is a transfer of ownership.

[John Collins]

Yeah, that's right.

[Tim Mackey]

That's crystal clear for me.

[John Collins]

Yes, that's right.

[Tim Mackey]

I think it's wonderful.

[John Collins]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackey]

And so then now we're just talking about the means of the transfer.

[John Collins]

Means of the transfer.

[Tim Mackey]

What was the role of the blood? In what way did the blood keep the destroyer away?

[John Collins]

At Passover.

[Tim Mackey]

At Passover. And then in what way Is Jesus surrender to death? In what way was that a coffer of sorts?

[John Collins]

Yeah, it was a. A willing surrender of a blameless life over which death had no rightful hold. And once somebody comes and does that, that, like, unlocks.

[Tim Mackey]

That unlocks me from death.

[John Collins]

It opens up. Yeah. The hands of death to have no hold over that person anymore. Death has no claim over someone who has done nothing worthy of death, and especially over the one who is the author of life. Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Mackey]

So that makes sense for Jesus.

[John Collins]

And.

[Tim Mackey]

And it only is gonna make sense for me if I am also in.

[John Collins]

Jesus, if he pulls me through, if I'm so united with him.

[Tim Mackey]

And the only way he can pull me through is if I'm united with him.

[John Collins]

Yeah, that's right.

[Tim Mackey]

And the way I become united with him is by. And now we're in this language of dying with Jesus.

[John Collins]

Yep, that's right. Trust, faith, following baptism, entering into his suffering.

[Tim Mackey]

But then Paul also calls this the forgiveness of sin.

[John Collins]

That's right.

[Tim Mackey]

The release from sin.

[John Collins]

Yep. Sin and death are not your ruler.

[Tim Mackey]

Yeah. And then once you've transferred through death into new life, you now are in a place where you're no longer ruled by sin and death. At least we are being pulled through. We are being rescued. We still have these mortal bodies, but that's where this is all heading.

[John Collins]

Yeah, that's right. Or as he says in verse 22, now that you have been set free from sin, you are in enslaved to God. But man, the fruit of that is being made holy, which leads to eternal life.

[Tim Mackey]

This is another example of he uses the past tense and then he slips over to like, this is still happening. You have been freed from death, but you are actually also leading. You're still on the journey into the life. Okay, so being released from sin and being released from the power of death are also two sides of the same coin.

[John Collins]

Yeah, that's right. Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Messiah, who gave himself for our sins so that he might rescue us from this present evil age. He rescued us from the authority of darkness. He transferred us to the kingdom of the Son whom He loves. And in that Son we have redemption, that is the forgiveness of sins. I hope that those dense, compact formulations feel a little more clear now. But I've been trying to gain clarity from these words for years and years now, and I still feel like I have to work for it. So that's okay. One step at a time.

[Tim Mackey]

That's it for today's podcast. Next week, we continue in the Letter to the Romans, and we'll also look at the Letter to the Hebrews, and we'll continue to explore the meaning of the death of Jesus as a redemption.

[John Collins]

Jesus death is the supreme act of love that he would enter into union with his suffering, dying, dispossessed creation to suffer its fate on its behalf so that he could return it to himself.

[Tim Mackey]

Bibleproject is a crowdfunded nonprofit and we exist to help people experience the Bible as a unified story that leads to Jesus. And everything that we create is free because of the generous support of thousands of people just like you. Thank you so much for being a part of this with us.

[John Collins]

Hi, my name is Noah and I am from Salem, Oregon. Hi, my name is Kirsten and I'm from Los Angeles, California. I first heard about the Bible Project from a friend and I use the.

[Tim Mackey]

Bibleproject for learning more about God's Word.

[John Collins]

Seeing His Scripture come alive through picture and animation. I use bibleproject for anything relating to my Master's degree of theology. My favorite thing about the Bible Project is the way that God's Word is brought to life, how it explains the Bible in a colorful, tangible way. It draws me in and always gives me a fresh perspective. We believe in Bible is a unified.

[Tim Mackey]

Story that leads to Jesus.

[John Collins]

Bibleproject is a nonprofit funded by people like me. Find free videos, articles, podcasts, classes and more on the Bibleproject app [e-mail] hey.

[Tim Mackey]

Everyone, this is Josh. I'm an app designer at bibleproject. I've been working at bibleproject for a little over a year and my favorite part about my work is all the stories I hear about how our audience uses the tools we make to decide dive deeper into the Bible story. There's a whole team of people that bring the podcast to life every week. For a full list of everyone who's involved, check out the show credits in the episode description wherever you stream the podcast and on our website.