Why Is There Wilderness Imagery in the Lord’s Prayer?

Summary

BibleProject Podcast

Episode Summary: "Why Is There Wilderness Imagery in the Lord’s Prayer?"

Date: November 24, 2025
Hosts: Tim Mackie, John Collins (+ guest contributors)

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Overview

In this rich Question and Response (Q&R) episode, the BibleProject team unpacks listeners’ questions from their extensive "Wilderness" series. The discussion weaves together Genesis creation imagery, wilderness as a paradigm for divine testing and preparation, intertextual motifs in the Hebrew Bible, and the surprising presence of wilderness imagery in the Lord’s Prayer. Drawing on both biblical texts and audience insights, Tim and John highlight how the narrative of wilderness spans both "in between" spaces and ultimate transformation, underlying the spiritual journey of both biblical figures and readers today.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Genesis, Eden, and the Wilderness Prototype

Edwin (Philippines) asks: Is the formation of Adam from dust in Genesis a prototype for the later biblical wilderness motif?

• Wilderness Pattern Set in Genesis
  • Tim affirms Genesis sets the prototype: Adam is formed out of lifeless, rainless dust (wilderness) and then placed into the garden (Eden).
    • [03:15] Tim Mackie: "The human's formed outside of the garden... and put inside."
  • John asks if this implies a sort of spiritual preparation before the “test” in Eden.
• Testing: Garden vs. Wilderness
  • Testing isn’t just a wilderness theme – it occurs in both abundance (the garden) and scarcity (the wilderness). The key question: “Can I trust the voice of God?” regardless of circumstances.
    • [05:01] Tim Mackie: "Whether you have more good than is good for you, or... an extreme lack of... good, the test remains the same."
• Reading Patterns Backwards; Spiritual Preparation
  • Tim notes caution when reading later patterns back into earlier stories. The “breath of God” (Genesis 2) can be seen as conferring a unique capacity for choice and responsibility but the preparation is the test itself in the garden, not before.

2. Parallels in Ezekiel and the Valley of Dry Bones

• Ezekiel recasts Israel’s exile as “wilderness of the nations” and envisions spiritual rebirth similar to Adam’s creation: lifeless forms are given new breath, symbolizing Israel’s moral and spiritual recreation ([07:06]–[09:10]).
• The test and spiritual preparation links the exodus, exile, and Adam’s creation.

3. Biblical Imagination and “What Ifs” in the Wilderness

• John and Tim discuss Second Temple “what if” traditions: imagining Adam's possible journey through an actual wilderness before Eden—did Adam have to hike, learning trust as preparation?
  • [12:55] Tim Mackie: "Let's say it was a five-day hike... that would have been five days of the human... 'Man, I'm thirsty, hungry'... then [in the garden], 'Ah, thank you.'"
• These thought experiments help modern readers meditate on scripture’s wisdom, recognizing that "the stories are a way to ponder real-life questions" ([14:41] Tim Mackie).

4. Fiery Sword, Purification, and Reentrance to the Garden

Natalie Fox (PA) asks: Is the fiery sword guarding Eden related to purification imagery, like going through the fire?

• Fire/Sword as Wilderness Motif
  • Fire and sword mark the barrier after Adam and Eve’s exile—a recurring biblical image of testing and purification leading to transformation.
    • [17:19] Tim Mackie: "To get back... into the garden land, you have to go through the sword or the fire... Fire and sword are purification."
• Prophetic and Narrative Parallels
  • Prophets use fire to symbolize purification (see Zephaniah, Isaiah 43). The Daniel story (the friends in the furnace) and Abraham/Isaac (fire and knife at Moriah) echo this theme: the journey through fire (testing) leads to refined, faithful living.
    • [24:00] Tim Mackie: "God has created human beings in a way that they image something that can endure through the fire."
  • The motifs develop: what is at first the sword/barrier can, in later stories, become the purification process to restoration.

5. Narrative Links: David, Nabal, Jacob, and Laban

Ifrec Umana (Georgia) asks: Is there an intentional hyperlink between Nabal (David’s antagonist) and Laban, Jacob’s rival, since their names are reversals?

• Intentional Literary Parallels
  • Tim confirms the literary design: David’s wilderness journey mirrors Jacob’s, and both cross paths with a flock-owning antagonist whose name is a wordplay mirror—Nabal/Laban.
    • [27:00] Tim Mackie: "You're 100% right. There's an important set of hyperlinks and parallels between David fleeing from Saul and... Jacob fleeing from Esau... and he goes into exile, meets Lavan, which is Nabal backwards."
  • Both sets of stories involve younger, chosen protagonists escaping a murderous elder, shepherding, hostility, and ultimately God’s faithfulness.
• Wisdom through Parallels
  • The narrative links highlight different causes for wilderness: Jacob’s is partially self-inflicted; David’s is due to others’ treachery. Both stories teach about navigating hardship.
    • [33:39] Tim Mackie: "Sometimes I can end up in the wilderness because of my own folly... sometimes because of somebody else's."

6. Wilderness Imagery in the Lord’s Prayer

Darndas Dabbler (Connecticut) asks: If the Kingdom of God has arrived, why does the Lord’s Prayer include wilderness motifs like 'daily bread'?

• Manna & Daily Bread
  • "Give us today our daily bread" echoes God’s provision of manna in the wilderness—a daily trust exercise ([39:02] Tim Mackie).
    • [39:02] John Collins: "That's wilderness, the bread of the moment."
  • The caution against storing manna and the 'wormy' results connect to temptation and trust—paralleling both wilderness and Eden tests ([39:35]–[39:50]).
• Is the Kingdom, or Garden, Here?
  • The Lord’s Prayer is a “test prayer” not limited to the wilderness—Adam and Eve could have prayed it in Eden. Even in abundance, trust must be learned ([43:51]–[44:38]).
    • [44:26] Tim Mackie: "It's a test prayer... the prayer of those facing the test."
  • Final fulfillment—a state where the prayer is unnecessary—arrives in the new creation where every desire is satisfied in God.

7. Jesus’ Gethsemane: The Garden, the Wilderness, and the Test

Gareth (Leeds, UK) asks: Is Jesus’ agony in Gethsemane a new ‘wilderness test,’ or is he modeling trust for us?

• Jesus as the True Human
  • Gethsemane is the culmination of Jesus’ 'wilderness' journey: he faces the test of aligning his will ("desire") with the Father's ([48:33]–[49:51]).
    • [49:51] Tim Mackie: "Here's Jesus in... the garden, facing another threefold test... bending the desires of his flesh into union with the desire of the Father."
  • Hebrews explains Jesus’ suffering perfects humanity—God’s own Son fully participates in our weakness and need, making him both our model and enabler ([53:23]–[56:01]).
    • [54:48] Tim Mackie: "What if the complete Son of God became one with incomplete, mortal, dying, suffering humans and then actually completed humanity?"
• The Continuing Test and Transformation
  • Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection show that "going through the fire"—yielding to God’s will even to the point of death—leads to real transformation for both him and his followers ([58:03]–[59:41]).
    • [59:25] Tim Mackie: "It can be bent into union with God's will. Jesus did it... If I'm with him, I can hang too."

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the universal test:
  • "The test is, can I trust the voice of God?"
    — John Collins ([04:53])
• On spiritual preparation:
  • "Moral or spiritual preparation through a test is about God inviting me to grow and mature."
    — Tim Mackie ([09:11])
• On imagination and 'what if' readings:
  • "What if [Adam] had to take a couple-day hike into that garden to find his way... actually had to listen to the voice of God and follow... a training time..."
    — John Collins ([11:55])
• On the purification fire:
  • "God has created human beings in a way that they image something that can endure through the fire."
    — Tim Mackie ([24:03])
• On narrative hyperlinking:
  • "The comparison and the contrast will teach you wisdom by comparing their different life stories."
    — Tim Mackie ([33:13])
• On the Lord’s Prayer as 'test prayer':
  • "So the Lord's Prayer, then, is training us to think of myself every day as being in that wilderness generation."
    — Tim Mackie ([43:46])
• On Jesus' surrender:
  • "Bending the desires of his flesh into union with the desire of the Father... unifying his human will with the divine will."
    — Tim Mackie ([49:51])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Genesis & Prototypical Wilderness – [01:46]–[10:53]
• Ezekiel & Spiritual Preparation – [07:06]–[10:04]
• Imagination & Second Temple Texts – [10:53]–[14:08]
• Fire and Sword: Purification Motif – [15:37]–[25:01]
• David/Nabal/Jacob/Laban Parallels – [26:28]–[36:43]
• Lord’s Prayer & Wilderness Imagery – [38:05]–[45:08]
• Jesus in Gethsemane: The Final Test – [46:20]–[60:24]

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Conclusion

This episode masterfully links the recurring wilderness/garden motif across scripture—from Eden to Israel’s exodus, Jesus' temptation and Gethsemane, and even into spiritual disciplines today. Through responsive dialogue with listener questions, Tim and John demonstrate that the biblical narratives are not just ancient stories but living wisdom, inviting all readers into the ongoing journey of trust, transformation, and divine partnership.

Transcript

[Tim Mackie]

Hi, John.

[John Collins]

Hey, Tim.

[Tim Mackie]

Hey. Hi there.

[John Collins]

I was wondering if you would do that.

[Tim Mackie]

Mm. Well, you were just looking at me because normally you start, but you're, you know. But it's a Q and R episode, so things are a little different.

[John Collins]

Great. Mix it up.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Hello, lovely.

[Tim Mackie]

And hello, everybody out there in the listening world to the BibleProject Podcast. This is a Q and R episode where we are going to respond to your questions that you sent in about the wilderness series. Yes. Came in for a landing on that one.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackie]

In as much as you can. I mean, it's the wilderness, so the point is, it's the in between, where you haven't arrived.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah.

[John Collins]

How can you arrive when you're in the wilderness?

[Tim Mackie]

Because that's not the point. The point is the journey and what it does to you.

[John Collins]

And it was a great journey going through the theme. And this will be a great opportunity to revisit a few things and hear how people have been reflecting on the journey through the wilderness.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah. So I feel like I say this every time because it's always true. One, you all, the listening audience, are a really smart, perceptive group of people. And when you send in questions, I'm just like, wow, that's fantastic. Great observations, but great questions. I'm really excited to dive in. We can't get to them all. We usually don't even get to all the ones I selected. But we try and hit the main repeated themes and the questions and have a good time with it. So should we just get rocking?

[Guest or Additional Host]

Let's jump in.

[Tim Mackie]

Cool. All right, let's start with a question from Edwin, who lives in the Philippines.

[Edwin (Caller)]

Hi, Tim and John. This is Edwin from the Philippines. In light of the theme of the wilderness as a place of divine preparation, where God forms people before leading them into the promised land, could Genesis 2, 7, 8 be read as a prototype of this pattern? Specifically, does the act of God forming Adam from dust and breathing into him the breath of life suggest not only physical animation but but also moral or spiritual preparation for life in Eden? Thank you.

[John Collins]

Oh, interesting. So is he asking Adam being formed of the dust and then put in Eden? You could think of it as just being physically created, but is there something there to meditate on in some sort of process of being prepared at that point to be put in the garden?

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah, it's a fantastic question. Just high five on a rad observation because you're pondering. There's all these stories later in the Bible about people going through hardship in the wilderness. It's dusty. It's Dry, there's no water, no food, all that. And then if you're going into a garden land, can we already see a pattern that. That pattern was itself first laid out in the Eden creation story? So definitely. I haven't gone back and listened to the first couple episodes in the wilderness for a while, so I don't remember.

[John Collins]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackie]

But if we didn't hit on these themes explicitly, then this is a great chance to now. So the first thing, Edwin, is absolutely the prototype pattern is right there in Genesis. So a few things, John, I've got the story open in front of you, but recall that the second creation story that begins in Genesis 2. Four begins with no cultivated plants, like no garden plants, no wild plants, no water, and no human. There's four problems. No plants, no water. But then water comes up out of the ground. And the first thing God does is form human from the dust of the ground. So what we know about the dust of the ground is that it's lifeless unless there's water and God's breath is involved. And then he blows into the nostrils the breath of life. The man becomes a nefesh chaya, living being, verse 8. God planted a garden in Eden in the east, and there he put the human whom he'd formed. I have tried to point out this observation a lot over the years that the humans formed outside of the garden. Exactly.

[John Collins]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackie]

And put inside right now, the actual.

[John Collins]

Testing of the human happens in the garden.

[Tim Mackie]

Exactly. Yeah.

[John Collins]

Yeah. Where in the theme of the wilderness, the testing we've been talking about is testing that happens outside of the garden.

[Tim Mackie]

Yep, that's right. And that became kind of a main through line for the whole conversation.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah.

[John Collins]

If we failed the test in the garden, why would we pass the test in the wilderness?

[Tim Mackie]

Right.

[Edwin (Caller)]

Yeah.

[John Collins]

Or is it really kind of the same test whether you're in the garden or in the wilderness? The test is, can I trust the voice of God?

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah. Whether you have perhaps more good than is good for you, or whether you have an extreme lack of anything good, the test remains the same. Yeah.

[John Collins]

So I think the question was, can we read into this moment of being created of the dust and then planted in the garden? Is that journey from the dust to the garden? Is there any sort of spiritual preparation.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Happening at that moment? Is that the question?

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah. Is the breathing of God's breath into the human not just physical animation, you ask, Edwin, but a moral or spiritual preparation? I think why I appreciated your question was it's a question I've had to ask myself many times when there's a pattern set up that repeats through many stories so that you have, whether it's Hagar in the wilderness or Moses in the wilderness or the Israelites in the wilderness. And these all map onto each other. And there's often hyperlinks that are comparing their experiences to each other and contrasting them. And then all of those are hyperlinked through different vocabulary on analogy back to the human. So the question is, how much of what happens in later repetitions of the pattern can I read back into earlier repetitions of the pattern? That is a really important. It's a question about reading and method. Like, how do you read this literature? Well, because oftentimes, for example, with the story of Solomon and his request for wisdom to discern between good and bad, that gives you insight back into, oh, I wish Adam and Eve would have just done that when the snake tried to deceive them.

[John Collins]

I guess I'm imagining then a story being told of God taking Adam from the wilderness, planting him in the garden. And this whole journey to me, that's just like took them, put them in. Now we're going, but is there a story there? Is that what we're meditating on?

[Tim Mackie]

So maybe I'll add one more parallel, Edwin, that I think addresses what you're talking about when you get to Ezekiel. And we did talk about these key passages in Ezekiel, probably pretty briefly, because it's a huge book. We did talk about Ezekiel, chapter 20. I remember in the episode, whatever Ezekiel calls the Babylonian exile of Israel, the wilderness of the nations uses that phrase. It's like a long wilderness. But then there's these chapters of hope in 36 and 37 of Ezekiel. In 36, God says, I'm going to take out your stony heart that would never listen to my commands and wisdom. I'm going to give you a new fleshy heart. I'm going to put my spirit in you. It's very similar to the language of what God's doing to the human in Genesis 2. And then you get, and you do mention this, Edwin, the valley of dry bones in the next chapter in Ezekiel 37, where there's a bunch of dead human, not even bodies, but just bones. And so first of all, the bones come back together and grow flesh. And you get these humans, but they're all just laying there lifeless on the ground, just like the clay human formed, but lifeless on the ground in Genesis 2. And then God breathes his breath into them, and they stand up in the ready rock, a new human. And it's the image of God Recreating Israel to be faithful covenant partners on the other side. So what's cool about that, Edwin, is that Ezekiel sees what you are seeing, namely that retelling the story of Israel to become God's faithful covenant partners who are dying in the wilderness of exile is like a recreation of them in that wilderness place to get put back into the new Eden. How much of that moral and spiritual recreation should I be reading back into the Adam story? Here's my thought, Edwin.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Okay, good. Do you have a thought?

[Tim Mackie]

I have a thought, but I wanted to paint all the. Like, here's how I'm arriving at that thought, which was all of that prologue. So moral or spiritual preparation through a test is about God inviting me to grow and mature. Right. And to become something that I'm not presently. In that sense, what Israel has failed at in the garden, just like Adam and Eve did, the wilderness exile, is kind of like the consequence of that decision. So they are in need of a really different way of valuing good and bad and God and so on. And so the wilderness and God recreating them is that moral and spiritual preparation. It doesn't seem like the human before the test at the tree in the garden needs. Like, the test in the garden is the preparation.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Right.

[John Collins]

That's where that story focuses.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah, but the breathing in of the breath is very suggestive. Like, it's obviously about life, but it is also about God sharing with a dirt creature a kind of divine capacity for responsibility, for choice, for partnership with God that is more than just like being physically animated. But it seems like what Ezekiel's saying is, the breath of God is needed once humans have failed. And when God's creating the human, you know, in Genesis 2, no, the human hasn't failed yet. So the test at the tree actually is the preparation. Which brings back to what we're saying. You can be tested in the garden, you can be tested in the wilderness. The test is really the same. It's like, to help us grow. Yeah, yeah.

[John Collins]

You know, we've talked a lot about how there's these other Second Temple texts of scribes who are thinking about a biblical passage and poking at it and saying, well, what if? You know, like.

[Tim Mackie]

Oh, yeah, yeah, the what if.

[John Collins]

The what if passages that don't end up in your Bible, but these were things that people read and meditated on and thought about as a way to kind of continue to think about the wisdom of these stories.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah, that's right.

[John Collins]

And so, you know, example of that would be in the ascension of Moses.

[Tim Mackie]

Is That what it's called the Ascension of Moses or the Testament of Moses.

[John Collins]

The Testament of Moses.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah, that we talked about recently.

[John Collins]

Yeah, It'll actually come out next year when we talk about it in detail. But there's this moment where Moses dies and then he's buried and we don't know where he's buried.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Right.

[Tim Mackie]

This is talked about at the end of Deuteronomy.

[John Collins]

That's in Deuteronomy.

[Tim Mackie]

So that's in the passage and it says nobody knows where he's buried.

[John Collins]

Nobody knows. So then some kind of just some literary nerdy like God fearing scribes are like, huh, I wonder what that story is. And then they do this kind of an imaginative exploration and then you get that scroll of the Testament of Moses and what they're doing is is there further reflecting on these biblical motifs that are all through the Bible? Anyways, I just bring it up because what this question has done is made me think about what is the story between Adam being formed and put in the garden? Because it could have been as simple as God just puts him there. But what if he had to take a couple day hike into that garden to find his way to the garden? He actually had to listen to the voice of God and follow the voice of God into the garden. They're like this training time where once he gets to the garden, you know, he's had all this practice listening to the voice of God and you're like, oh yeah, like how wonderful it is to be that in tune with the voice of God. And then he gets there and now the tree.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah.

[John Collins]

Is such a.

[Tim Mackie]

That's good John.

[Guest or Additional Host]

More important note.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah. Because let's say it was a five day hike to get into the garden. Then that would have been five days of the human looking around and saying like, man, it's lifeless out here. Man, I'm thirsty, man, I'm hungry. Without God helping me, I'm dead, I'm done for. And then you get to the garden and you're like, ah, thank you. And I'll listen to you now since you led me to the good stuff.

[John Collins]

Right.

[Tim Mackie]

So it seems like the dynamic of the Adam and Eve story is exactly that. That Adam and Eve are portrayed not knowing good and bad is a phrase used that Moses uses in Deuteronomy chapter 1 to describe children. Like moral infants. They haven't had enough practice at knowing what's good or bad to make the right call.

[John Collins]

They haven't made any call on their.

[Tim Mackie]

Own yet, but they just woke up in a garden, I guess that's the question.

[John Collins]

Did they just wake up in the garden or was there this little journey to the garden?

[Tim Mackie]

Well, the fact that they fail at least means that they didn't fully appreciate the abundance that God provided them because they thought they had a better idea of what to do with it. Yeah, I see. But yeah, you could imagine a what if there.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah, it's the what if that.

[John Collins]

I think it's okay for us to have those what if moments and think about it, because I think the point here is the way the wilderness is. There is a journey from the wilderness into the garden and for us to then think, okay, well, what would that have been for Adam, who didn't know good from bad yet, and all he could do was listen to the voice of God? What would that have journey been like into the garden if there was a journey?

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah, that's right.

[John Collins]

I don't know.

[Tim Mackie]

That's great.

[John Collins]

I think Edwin just allowed me to imagine that for a second. This was kind of a fun little thought experiment.

[Tim Mackie]

No, it's good, I think. So what we're getting into is in that imaginative experiment, and this is what Ezekiel is doing with Genesis and it's with the story of Moses is doing in relationship to Genesis is that the biblical narratives are a way to ponder the real life questions and circumstances that we all find ourselves in. And they're like, think about it this way.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackie]

And the stories are not just telling us about an interesting thing that happened. The interesting things that happen are framed in such a way that we meditate on the bigger questions. And. And that's a really good example of it. Yeah. Yeah. So thanks. Thanks, Edwin. And actually, your question, Edwin, and the conversation we just had really links well into the question that we got from Natalie in Lewisburg, Pennsylvania.

[Natalie Fox (Caller)]

Hello, my name is Natalie Fox. I'm from Lewisburg, Pennsylvania. In episode eight of the Wilderness, you mentioned that going through the fire is purification imagery. I have a hunch that the fiery sword that was to guard the way to the tree of Life is connected to this purification since the humans were in the wilderness landscape. Can you connect these dots? Thank you for all you do.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[John Collins]

That's great.

[Guest or Additional Host]

And I have heard you kind of.

[John Collins]

Maybe you didn't use the word purification, but you've talked about this idea of the fiery sword.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah.

[John Collins]

Going through death.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah.

[John Collins]

If you want to go back into the garden, if you're going through a fiery sword.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah. That's going to destroy a human. Going into a whirling sword or into a fire usually means done for. Yeah, you're done. You're done for. Yes, yeah, exactly. So a couple thoughts. One, let's just think about the sword and the fire appear along with the cherubim, the angelic bouncers who were put at the boundary of Eden. When Adam and Eve are exiled, so they are outside the garden, they're still in the land of Eden, because it's Cain that's exiled east of Eden, like outside of Eden itself. So they're still in the region of Eden, but they are outside. And it's apparently the realm of thorns and thistles, you know, from what God said in Genesis 3. So they are in a wilderness landscape, as it were. They are separated from the garden of life. So they're in the place of the consequence of having failed the test of trust.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackie]

And then the wilderness is going to provide them and their right, their descendants, lots of testing moments. So already they're in the realm associated with test the wilderness. And then to get back, back into the garden land, you have to go through either the sword or the fire. And absolutely. Fire imagery is really cool. If you wanted, you could get some kind of concordance, a digital concordance. And where in the Psalms, but especially the prophets, how fire imagery is used in the prophets, especially Zephaniah, of all places, has some really cool fire imagery. And the way that it functions is that it seems like it kills and destroys everything, but then there is a version of the faithful remnant that goes through the fire that appears out the other side in a more faithful state where they do right by God and others. And this is surely what the story of Daniel's friends who go into the furnace of Babylon also. They go in and they go out of it, and they come out more loyal and dedicated to the God of Israel. So fire and sword are purification. Definitely. So the one way to think about the whole wilderness period is it's like a purifying fire or a cutting away, which is interesting way to think about it. A couple other connections. One, in Isaiah 43, he talks about how Israel's exile to Babylon is like going through the fire. He talks about it and he talks about going through the rivers.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah. Flood or fire?

[Tim Mackie]

Flood and fire. Yeah. And both are purification. And I'm thinking also of. Oh, in the story of Abraham, when Abraham picks up the knife and the fire to take up to Mount Moriah. The eater with Isaac. Yeah. The knife is called the eater, the thing that consumes. But, you know, a common phrase that we use for swords that have sharp edges on both sides, we call it A two edged sword.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yep.

[Tim Mackie]

But in the Hebrew Bible it's called a two mouthed sword because it eats mostly. Well, if it's a sword for battle, it eats flesh. So he has the eater in his hand. And then Isaac. This is Genesis 22:7. Isaac said, look, here's the fire and here's the wood, but where's the lamb for the burnt offering?

[Guest or Additional Host]

So Abraham takes the fire and the knife.

[Tim Mackie]

Yes.

[Guest or Additional Host]

And then later we also learn that there's a wood.

[Tim Mackie]

That there's a wood because. Yeah, he had put the wood on Isaac's shoulders. So it's really interesting that the fire and the sword both play a role in this story.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Fire and a knife. And there's a flaming sword at the garden. Is this a hyperlink?

[Tim Mackie]

This is. Well, because he's ascending a high place and there's going to be an angel up there that he meets who's going to say, like, don't use that knife on your son. So this is Abraham's ultimate purification test.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Interesting.

[Tim Mackie]

And this is where he passes this test because he's willing to surrender his son back to God, who gave him his son, and God both gives him back the life of his son and provides, as it were, the ram in the bush who was offered in the place of his son. So Isaac does kind of die in a way. And Abraham, in his son dying, is himself dying.

[Guest or Additional Host]

How does he sort of die?

[Tim Mackie]

Oh, symbolically, because he's handed over. Abraham was willing to give the life of Isaac back to God.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Okay.

[Tim Mackie]

Or as the author of Hebrews says, it's as if Abraham received Isaac back from the dead. Interesting little meditation.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackie]

So my point is that the fire and the sword play a key role where Abraham meets an angelic figure on a high place at his ultimate test.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Okay. So in Genesis 3, the angelic figure, the cherubim are placed there at the gate. So right there on the entrance to Eden, not an angel, but a cherubim, spiritual being. Flame and sword on a high place to enter into essentially the place of God's presence.

[Tim Mackie]

Because of their failure at a tree.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah, yeah. And so when you get to Abraham story and Abraham is bringing fire and sword essentially up to that place to make a sacrifice. Those two worlds are merging in a way.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah. Those two stories. It's another example back to Edwin's question of like a parallel moment where the story of Genesis 22 has been shaped with all this vocabulary to help us imagine that this is, as it were, Adam and Eve reapproaching Eden and doing the right Thing of surrendering the fruit. What is Isaac except the fruit of Abraham and Sarah?

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackie]

And he gives the fruit back to God. And God says, actually, I'll let you keep your fruit, your son. And they meet together, and God and Abraham meet each other on the high place there. So the author shaped it as like, is success is passing of the test.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah. So the way that the fire and sword work in Genesis 3, it feels like stay out. This is just a barrier now. This is off limits now where purification isn't stay out, it's go through. But it's going to be painful.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah, sure. And maybe. Yeah, you're right. When you're just at Genesis 3, the meaning of the fire and sword could have multiple layers of meaning as you go on through the story.

[Guest or Additional Host]

As you go on through the story. Back to this imaginative thinking about these stories. Are you supposed to imagine what if Adam and Eve went back and somehow went through the fire?

[Tim Mackie]

Right.

[Guest or Additional Host]

What would that have looked like?

[Tim Mackie]

Exactly. Yeah. And I think that is what is on the mind, say, of the author of Daniel. And why the story of them going through the fire and coming out the other side.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah. With some angels in.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah. Or why the poet in Isaiah 43 talked about the Babylonian exile as going through a fire. So fire imagery is that it really does destroy something, but it destroys something that cannot endure the fire.

[Guest or Additional Host]

But apparently something can endure.

[Tim Mackie]

God has created human beings in a way that they image something that can endure through the fire. And what else can endure fire except. Except. Well, either precious metals. They get melted down. Isaiah uses fire imagery to talk about. I think essentially what it is is light, like the fire itself. You become the fire. Our God is a consuming fire, and we become the fire. I think this is why resurrection imagery is almost always associated with shining and brightness as you actually become one with the fire.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Okay.

[Tim Mackie]

Just to throw that out there.

[Guest or Additional Host]

One with the fire.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah. I mean, I'm speaking in just the biblical images here. That the righteous in the resurrection will shine like stars in the sky, like the angels. Yeah.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Anyway, I just took that resurrection bodies. Think about that for a second.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah.

[Ifrec Umana (Caller)]

But.

[Tim Mackie]

But the point is that whatever is a part of me that's connected to disordered desires that drag me back into the dust, but I think I need them to stay alive. That stuff's gotta go.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Can you rid yourself of that?

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah.

[Guest or Additional Host]

And how.

[Tim Mackie]

Mm. Yes. And this is where we got to the stuff about where the starvation or being hungry and thirsty in the wilderness can be a kind of gift, even though it's very unpleasant. Because it's teaching you about.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah, you can practice not needing that.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah. The stuff we think keeps us alive. Food, sex, our children. In terms of keeping our name alive for the future, what really keeps us alive is the word of God. And the first word of God is, let the divine fire shine into the darkness.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Let there be light.

[Tim Mackie]

Let there be light. Yeah. Well. Well, that got interesting.

[Guest or Additional Host]

I think we should stop there.

[Tim Mackie]

Okay. We had a short but really fun conversation about David.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah, that was a cool episode.

[Tim Mackie]

The stories of David are so cool. I want to spend a lot more time there in years to come. John. So we covered really just one story in detail. 1 Samuel 25. So let's hear a question about that story from Ifrek, who lives in Georgia.

[Ifrec Umana (Caller)]

Hi, Tim and John. This is Ifrec Umana from Lawrenceville, Georgia. And what interested me about your episode with Naval is that I realized that when spelled backwards, can also spell Levan from the Jacob story. So I'm interested if there is an intentional hyperlink between Jacob and David's story with how they both had to flee from people trying to kill them and. And work among shepherds and also receive mistreatment from Levan and Naval, respectively.

[Tim Mackie]

Thank you.

[Guest or Additional Host]

That's interesting.

[Tim Mackie]

Dude. Ifrec double triple gold star, man. I love that. I love that you noticed that. I just feel really happy about that.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackie]

Because you're 100% right.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Really?

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah. Yes. So remind me.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Nabal means malicious idiot. Malicious idiot.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah. Yeah. Lavan is both in Hebrew and in English, the name Naval backwards.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah. Does Levan have a name?

[Tim Mackie]

Oh, Lavan is the root word for white.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Okay.

[Tim Mackie]

The shade of white, which also is a wordplay at work in the Jacob and Lavan stories, too. Laban is how a lot of people say his name. So you're 100% right. There's an important set of hyperlinks and parallels between David fleeing from Saul and then he meets Naval, and then he has to flee from Saul some more on the other side. And that is all set on parallel to Jacob fleeing from his brother Esau, who's trying to kill him. And then he goes into exile, meets a guy named Lavan, which is Naval backwards.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Laban.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah, Laban. And then when Jacob leaves Laban, then he goes back and he encounters Esau again and thinks that Esau is going to kill him. Right. But he doesn't. So this has to do. How do you say. There's a whole section of Jacob's story, his exile because. Into the east, because of his brother's threats to Murder him, his long sojourn, exile, 20 years in the east, where he is end up as a slave, essentially, to his uncle Laban. And then he goes back to meet Esau. And each part of that sequence is hyperlinked. And there's all these very unique vocabulary and theme parallels to David's journey from Saul. It's like whoever wrote that section of David's flight from Saul has the Jacob story on the brain and keeps making hyperlinks to really unique words, but in order, in the same order of the Jacob story. It's super cool, so you'd notice the name. So I did a little project on this a number of years ago, so I have a handy dandy chart to look at. So remember that the whole thing about Jacob and Esau is that Jacob is the younger, but he was chosen to actually inherit the blessing over and above his older brother, which has also got Cain and Abel stuff written all over it.

[Guest or Additional Host]

And also a David and Saul kind of.

[Tim Mackie]

Yes, yeah, exactly. Yeah, totally. So in a similar way, Saul is jealous of David and all the fame and favor that he's getting, and so he starts trying to kill him. So, for example, in the story right before David And Neval, in 1 Samuel 24 is where actually we talked about this because David was hiding in a cave. Saul went in to go to the bathroom, and David doesn't kill him. Saul comes out, and David has this speech, and he's like, saul. And the whole focus of that is when Saul hears David speaking to him from the cave. He says, in 1st Samuel 24, is this your voice, my son, David? And then Saul realizes that it's David and that David spared his life. And so Saul lifted up his own voice and he wept. Similarly, when Jacob is deceiving his old blind father Isaac with the food so that he can get the blessing and the promise, you know, that's for his older brother. And Isaac is blind. He can't see anymore. And so what he asks is, he says, is that you, my son, Esau? And Jacob says, like, yeah, it's me. It's Esau. And, you know, he famously puts on, like, the ghost animal skins or whatever. Yeah, yeah. And so what Isaac says is, well, the voice is the voice of Jacob, but what I feel like. And the food that I smell sure seems like it's coming from Esau. So it's all about the voice is the thing that gives it away. Okay, so there's little clues like that that run parallel through, but especially in the story of naval paralleling, Levan because both Naval is a shepherd with lots of flocks. In fact, there's a sheep shearing festival that's at the center of the story of David and Naval. Similarly, Lavan is a shepherd and there's a sheep shearing festival that's at the very center of the story of Jacob and Lavan. So actually it would just be a fun homework assignment. Go read Genesis like 25 through 32 and then go read first Samuel 24:26 and just start noticing all the parallel vocabulary and it'll just like it's off the charts. It's super fun.

[Guest or Additional Host]

And why. Oh, sure, why do that?

[Tim Mackie]

That's great. But back to the first question. What? When biblical authors are setting characters or stories in parallel to each other, the point isn't just so that it's fun. The point is that the comparison and the contrast will teach you wisdom by comparing their different life stories. It's the same thing of when we watch a really powerful movie and we're watching someone's story, but the reason we find it compelling is because we see ourselves in it. And my life isn't identical to any powerful movie character I've ever seen, but it's similar enough that I can learn wisdom from it. So, like a difference between David and Jacob is David hasn't deceived anybody. And so all the wrong coming towards him is because of Saul's treachery and selfishness and Naval's treachery and selfishness. For Jacob, it's the inverse is that he's the problem and his father Isaac and his brother Esau, like, aren't great people. But Jacob is very much the creator of his own wilderness experience. Right. That's a meaningful contrast. Like, oh, sometimes I can end up in the wilderness because of my own folly. Sometimes I can end up in the wilderness because of somebody else's folly. And I think both of those. Right. Give you perspective on how to think about your own wilderness.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Right?

[Tim Mackie]

Something like that.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackie]

I guess my point is, is that the narrative parallels are in the service of the same thing you were doing earlier. Yeah. With thinking about how story of Adam and Eve might be paralleled by the story of Moses or something like that.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Right.

[Tim Mackie]

The stories are vehicles to teach us wisdom.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah. So it's cool that this came out of a wordplay on the name was the kind of the first clue.

[Tim Mackie]

Oh, yeah, it is. It's a little like low hanging fruit.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

[Guest or Additional Host]

That's really fascinating. And then you're saying you go and just watch how it's not just the name. There's a lot of vocabulary. Yeah, key vocabulary, like the voice that then will share in each story. And you're saying that the vocabulary actually happens in order?

[Tim Mackie]

In order.

[Guest or Additional Host]

It feels very intentional.

[Tim Mackie]

Yes.

[Guest or Additional Host]

And the fact that they're both shepherds and there's a sheep shearing festival. And so all of those details are saying, dear reader, pay attention to and think about these sets of stories together. And as you do, think about the similarities and differences. And as you do, you're going to find God's wisdom.

[Tim Mackie]

Yes, exactly. That is part of how the stories do their work.

[Guest or Additional Host]

I never learned that in Sunday school.

[Tim Mackie]

But hopefully a whole new generation will because I have been waiting for the day that I could share this news. Okay, so there's a Hebrew Bible scholar, Seth Postell, who I've learned a lot from over the years. He and I both had the same really formative teacher back in the day, John Cellhammer, who taught me probably the most important things I ever wrote, learned about how to read the Hebrew Bible. So Seth Postell was also a student of Sailhammer's back in the day. And Seth has done us the favor of writing the first accessible introductory kind of like handbook on hyperlinking.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Oh, yeah.

[Tim Mackie]

That I am so thrilled to recommend to people now. Just released real time, like eight days ago, November 4, 2025. Yeah. Called the Art of Narrative Analogy, Identifying and Interpreting Parallel Passages in the Bible. So Seth walks through in a very fun way. He uses Star wars and Lord of the Rings as kind of like the main illustrations. So it's written for a very accessible audience. If you've ever wanted to kind of deepen your understanding or sharpen your toolkit of how to identify hyperlinks and then what to do with them. Like your question. Yeah, this is a book length treatment of that.

[Guest or Additional Host]

This is not an academic book. This is more popular level book.

[Tim Mackie]

Oh. I mean, it's about hyperlinking in the Bible.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Okay.

[Tim Mackie]

So it is nerdy in the sense of it's about that, but it's not. You don't have to know Greek or Hebrew. It's written for a wide audience and it's easy to read. You'll learn a ton. And it's the book that I wished for many years existed. Great.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Do you have it?

[Tim Mackie]

I do actually, because I wrote a little. You wrote a blurb, short little paragraph to endorse it because it's such a fantastic little book. That's awesome. Yeah, but it's really great. So if you wanted, for example, to follow through this Parallel between David and Naval and Jacob and Laban. You could do it on your own. You could also get Seth's book and then do it. And I bet you would notice a lot more and get a lot more insight out of it. Awesome. Yep. Okay, let's move into some questions that arose out of our conversations about Jesus in the wilderness. We did multiple episodes. The wilderness comes up a lot in the Gospels. So we have a question from. I'm pretty sure this isn't your real name, Darndas Dabbler, which is just a fantastic name, but it's also your email address. So my hunch is your real name's a mystery. And that's okay, because Darndest Dabbler, you have a really great question about the wilderness and the teachings of Jesus. Hi, Tim and John Collins, Darndas Dabbler from Connecticut. Although Jesus proclaims that the kingdom of God has arrived, the daily prayer that he prescribes for us has some wilderness in it. What's up with that? Thank you. And thank you for all you do. What's up with that?

[Guest or Additional Host]

Is that the daily bread?

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah, I pulled it up here.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Okay.

[Tim Mackie]

The Lord's Prayer.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackie]

So we should just say it together.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Okay.

[Tim Mackie]

All right. This is in the Lexham English Bible version, But our Father who is in heaven, may your name be treated as holy. Whoa. That's almost exactly how we translated it in our translation. May your kingdom come, May your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts as we also have forgiven our debtors. Don't bring us into they render temptation. It's the same words. Test. I'm going to say test, but deliver us from the evil one.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackie]

So you're hearing. Well, first of all, Darndest Dabbler.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah, he didn't tell us.

[Tim Mackie]

He didn't tell us. So, John, your hunch is that the wilderness has come to the daily bread.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yep, that's wilderness, the bread of the moment.

[Tim Mackie]

That's exactly right.

[Guest or Additional Host]

What do I need in this moment?

[Tim Mackie]

So you're referring to the manna. The story is about God providing manna in the wilderness, which is daily, every day.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah, yeah. Just enough for the day. You're not storing it up. You're just day by day, what do I need today?

[Tim Mackie]

It gets wormy if you store it up, which, you know, worms are kind of just like little tiny snakes.

[Guest or Additional Host]

No.

[Tim Mackie]

Why worms? It's mentioned that the Israelites who kept the manna, because it could have been like.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Could have been just Bacteria, you're saying it could have been like, yeah, why.

[Tim Mackie]

Mention little slithery worms? Except to echo the snake. They're listening to the snake saying, God won't provide enough for you. You better get two days worth anyway.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Okay, so daily bread and then the test.

[Tim Mackie]

Do not bring us into the. Yeah.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Now, one large point of the discussion was the test happens in the garden, and it happens and it happens in the wilderness. How are you going to pass the test in the garden? Well, maybe by learning to pass it in the wilderness first, and then maybe you can handle the garden. So I guess the test could really be in either. But the point here is there's some wilderness themes in the prayer. And the question is, if the kingdom of God has arrived, does that mean the garden has arrived?

[Tim Mackie]

That's right.

[Guest or Additional Host]

And if the garden has arrived, why would I be asking for daily bread? Wouldn't I just be like, thanks for all the wonderful trees that I can eat from?

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah, because in the manna story, that's being echoed by the daily bread. The Israelites are in the wilderness. They're in it, and they would die if they don't have bread. But the bread, you know, it's called the bread of heaven, the bread from the skies. And it has a mysteriously shiny qualities about it. It's like resin. Right. That glints in the sun or something. Yeah, it's. Why is it described that way? You know? Okay, so it is a little Eden gift, as it were, but it's in the wilderness setting. So I think. Darndest dabbler. I just like saying your name. I think what you're noticing and naming, like, what's up with the fact the kingdom of God has arrived, but I'm still in the wilderness? I mean, it's a great way of just naming. The dynamic of the kingdom of God is here in moments, in foretastes, in experiences, but it has yet to envelop and recreate the whole cosmos.

[Guest or Additional Host]

So an Israelite going out and gathering some manna, picking it up, looking at it, marveling at it could go, the kingdom of the skies has arrived.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah, the bread.

[Guest or Additional Host]

The bread of the skies has arrived.

[Tim Mackie]

This is it. Yeah, yeah, it arrived.

[Guest or Additional Host]

The king of bread.

[Tim Mackie]

The skies have.

[Guest or Additional Host]

And I only need to take what I need right now. You know, I was also reflecting on how, you know, in the garden, Adam and Eve aren't collecting fruit. Right. They don't have to store fruit. It's just always on the trees.

[Tim Mackie]

Totally.

[Guest or Additional Host]

So what do I want to eat today? Like, I'll just choose my Tree and I'll eat it. So you're not storing up. And so it's the fruit of the moment. In the garden, it's the same thing, but you're just surrounded by it versus the manna. It's like you're surrounded by desert. And the temptation is, okay, maybe I do need to store this up. But in both is the temptation is, can I trust that God will give me what I need? Or do I take what I think I need?

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. So the Lord's Prayer then, is training us to think of myself every day as being in that wilderness generation. The kingdom of God has arrived. I mean, my goodness. He liberated us from. From slavery in Egypt. God is king. Those are the final words of the worship song that the people sing in Exodus 15 after they walk through the sea. Yahweh reigns as king. That's the final line. So it's the king of the cosmic kingdom leading us through the wilderness, and he gives us just what we need for each day. So, Lord's prayer, Whether my life happens to be surrounded by abundance or surrounded by a lack of abundance, or maybe I'll go through both in my lifetime, the Lord's prayer is teaching me to see. I'm always actually sojourning in the wilderness with the cosmic king with me.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Well, you could also imagine Adam and Eve praying this prayer.

[Tim Mackie]

Totally.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Right?

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[John Collins]

It still works.

[Guest or Additional Host]

You know, give me today the fruit I need today.

[Tim Mackie]

Yep.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Like, you know, totally.

[Tim Mackie]

That could be their eat today my daily fruit.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah, I love that.

[John Collins]

And don't I know there's that tree.

[Guest or Additional Host]

You told me not to. So don't, you know, don't lead me into the test.

[Tim Mackie]

Don't lead me into the test, please.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah. Deliver me from the evil one. The evil one's here, whispering into my ear, like, don't just trust that God has enough for you. There's something he's holding out on you.

[Tim Mackie]

Totally.

[Guest or Additional Host]

It could have been their prayer.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah, that's right.

[Guest or Additional Host]

So it's not a wilderness prayer. It's a garden prayer.

[Tim Mackie]

Oh, it's a test prayer.

[Guest or Additional Host]

It's a test prayer.

[Tim Mackie]

I guess it's a prayer of those facing the test. But it's true. Because if I'm in the garden, I still want to view all that abundance as daily provision.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Mackie]

And I think it's why, I think the wisdom of Jesus teachings, I think, is teaching us that even when we do have material abundance, to treat it and do with it whatever it takes so that it doesn't catch a hold of my desires in my heart.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Do you have to pray this prayer once you're a new creation?

[Tim Mackie]

What a fantastic question. I don't think so.

[Guest or Additional Host]

The ultimate garden?

[Tim Mackie]

I don't think so. Because the idea is that if every creature is so satisfied, all our desires are satisfied with the presence and power and goodness of God intimately, then why would I desire anything you have and do wrong to you that all of a sudden I need to ask for your forgiveness anymore?

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah. Maybe another way to say it is you can't help but pray this prayer.

[Tim Mackie]

Oh, what do you mean?

[John Collins]

The prayer is so in tune with.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Your spirit that you're not trying to pray the prayer. Your life is the prayer you're saying.

[Tim Mackie]

Because you're living out the desire to only depend on and live by the creative word and goodness of God and.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Escape every false temptation to not do that.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah. That's great. Thanks for that, John. This is a great chance to go to the question that we got from Gareth, who lives in Leeds in the United Kingdom. You ask a great question about Jesus in the garden.

[Gareth (Caller)]

Hi, John and Tim. This is Gareth from Leeds in the uk. You've mentioned a few times in this series that the wilderness is often a place in which people are required to learn to trust God and His will. To see whether you're ready to be in the garden. In reading the Passion narrative, I wondered whether there was a wilderness moment for Jesus when he was in the garden of Gethsemane, because at that moment, he felt separation from the Father and he needed to place his trust in the Father so that he could submit to the Father's will rather than his own. Is the Father testing Jesus at this moment? Or is Jesus showing us that the way to trust God in our wilderness times is by submitting everything to his will? Thank you for everything that you and the whole Bible Project team do. God bless you all.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackie]

That's fantastic.

[Guest or Additional Host]

So there Jesus is praying the prayer. Right.

[Tim Mackie]

Well, thank you. Yeah. Well, you're remembering our conversations about that. Yeah.

[Guest or Additional Host]

And it's kind of cool to think about how he probably couldn't help but pray the prayer, you know, like he was so one with the Father.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah. So this is the story where Matthew 26. We'll look at his version. This is verse 36. Jesus went with them to a place called Gethsemane. It's actually the Gospel of John that calls it like a garden orchard. And Gethsemane is a Greek spelling of the Hebrew phrase gat shemin, which is the pressing floor for olive oil. So it was like where you would stomp on the olives and the oil would start to drain out. So it was olive orchard. And he said, sit over here to the disciples while I go over there and pray. But then he took along Peter and James and John, and he quotes from a psalm, because he's got those in his blood. My soul is deeply grieved to the point of death. Comes from Psalm, I think, 42. He went a little ways and said, my Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me. That's a whole hyperlink back to his cup in baptism. But then he says, nevertheless, not what I desire, but what you desire.

[Guest or Additional Host]

And you're looking at a translation that says, not what I will, but as you.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah.

[Guest or Additional Host]

And that's how I typically have ever heard the story, not my will, but your will be done.

[Tim Mackie]

Exactly. Yes.

[Guest or Additional Host]

It's the classic rendering of that.

[Tim Mackie]

That's right. It's exactly the same Greek phrases from the Lord's Prayer.

[Guest or Additional Host]

And that's the point.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Which in the Lord's Prayer is.

[Tim Mackie]

In both cases, it's the Greek word anthelao, which means, what you desire, what you want. Yeah. Which echoes back to the language of desire and the tree and the snake from.

[Guest or Additional Host]

And Lord's Prayer, it's may your kingdom.

[Tim Mackie]

Come, may your desire be done.

[Guest or Additional Host]

And so Jesus is praying that part of the prayer. He's praying the prayer.

[Tim Mackie]

Yes. Now, so, Gareth, what you're asking is.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Jesus, was he being tested, or was he just showing us how to be tested?

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah, exactly. So one thought is, this story is a bookend, because this is right before the moment that he goes to get arrested and his trial and so on. And so it really is kind of the culminating moment of his whole journey that began with his baptism and his wilderness sojourning in that test. And I think Matthew's connecting back. It's only Matthew that tells us that Jesus went back and forth three times to pray this prayer.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Okay.

[Tim Mackie]

He goes back a second time, disciples are asleep, he goes back a second time, and then it's the same prayer. And then Matthew tells us he went back a third time, which echoes the three wilderness tests. Remember, the three wilderness tests were all about Jesus preserving his life. Provide bread for yourself, throw yourself down. In that case, it would be risk your life to force your father to save your life. And then in the third case, it's, you know, I'm going to give you power over all the kingdoms. So it's all about Jesus securing on his own timeline and by his own strategy, all the stuff the Father wants to give him three times over. And now here's Jesus in the opposite of the wilderness, the garden, facing another threefold test. Oh, he also says to the disciples when he goes back, watch and pray so that you don't fall into the test or fall into temptation, which is also from the Lord's Prayer. And also the wilderness story of Jesus began with saying the Spirit led Jesus into the wilderness in order to be tested. Yeah. So the question is, why would Jesus need to be tested? And the Gospel authors just give us the narration of it. I think what's important is to say when Jesus says, not my desire, but your desire, Father, when he's talking about my desire, we've only ever seen Jesus be completely in union in one with the Father and act according to the Father's desire. So, I mean, Jesus, he's going to his death and he knows it. Yeah. But what he also talks about, when he goes back to the disciples and they're asleep, he says, watch and pray you don't fall into the test. The spirit might be willing, but the flesh is weak. It's kind of a famous saying. Jesus. So this is a moment where Jesus is bending the desires of his flesh into union with the desire of the Father. And so in that sense, he's unifying his human will with the divine will that he shares with his Father.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Right. And to the degree that he experienced, that was his test.

[Tim Mackie]

Totally. Yeah. You know, there's a moment when whoever wrote the letter to the Hebrews.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah, I was thinking about that.

[Tim Mackie]

Reflects back. It's a cool hyperlink in the New Testament letters back to the Gospels.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah. Because for that author, there's something for us that he can empathize with us. Is that right?

[Tim Mackie]

Yes. Yeah. In two places. One is in chapter two of the letter to the Hebrews where he says, since the children. The children are human beings, since humans have flesh and blood, he that is the Son of God shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of the one who holds the power of death, namely the slanderer, the devil, so he could liberate into freedom all of those who all their lives were held in slavery by the fear of death. So the first thing he wants to say is, how did God save people who are dying? Because they keep choosing their own death through their folly.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Someone's tangled up in death.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah. So God doesn't, just, as it were, from the outside, just scoop them out of danger. God actually joins humans in their Mortality and dying. Yeah, he shares in their humanity. That's a really big theme in the letter to the Hebrews. So when earlier in chapter two, then he kind of backs up and he puts it this way. He says, in order to bring many human sons and daughters into a state of glory, which is his word for the resurrection, like a glorified human, it was appropriate that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, it was appropriate that God, who's the creator of all things, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect. But it's the word teleos complete through what he suffered. So it was actually by the Father sending the divine Son so that the Son, who's one with the Father would suffer the same thing that their suffer, but go through it and be completely like unified with the Father. That's called perfecting or completing the human being.

[Guest or Additional Host]

I don't understand the phrase, make the pioneer of their salvation.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah. So it's the Father and the Son working in partnership. The Son of God doesn't need to be perfected. Like, he's cool. But humans really do need to. We're in a bad way down here, and we're in a bad way because of our disordered desires. Right. That's the diagnosis of Genesis 3. So what if the complete Son of God became one with incomplete mortal, dying, suffering humans and then actually completed humanity, perfected that humanity? I think what the author of Hebrews, when he looks at Jesus in Gethsemane, he sees the Son of God having become human, actually finally being the first real human being who's willing to live in union with God. And if we're wondering how this links to the garden, or does the author of Hebrews really have the garden on the brain in chapter five, he really links to it most directly. He's talking about the divine Son in chapter five, verse seven. And he says, in the days of.

[Guest or Additional Host]

His flesh, when he was cruising around.

[Tim Mackie]

Galilee, so once God had become one with human flesh in the person of the Son, he that is the Son, offered up prayers and requests with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death. And he was heard because of his piety or his devotion to God. So this is clearly a reference to his prayer in the garden. And he sees that in that moment. Gareth, it's interesting. The author of Hebrews doesn't see Jesus being separated from God in the garden. He actually sees this as a moment of Jesus expressing his devotion to God and being heard, because he says the Father heard him because of his piety. So it's a moment, I think, of intimate union between the Father and the Son, but it's because the Son was going into death, which I don't know what could be more opposite of death than the infinite, eternal, life giving Son of God? Like, the point is that God is embracing the thing that's the most opposite of God, which is death. There's a great mystery here, but the point is, Gareth, that the Gethsemane story, the testing, is echoing the wilderness, it's echoing Adam and Eve in the garden.

[Guest or Additional Host]

It's a way for Jesus to really experience what does it mean to be human and to have to bend your flesh and the desire of your flesh into union with God. And it's interesting that the author here says as he was crying, praying to the one who was able to save him from death, he was heard. Because in the garden story, it almost feels like Jesus saying, can I not. Can you take this from me?

[Tim Mackie]

Oh, sure, yeah.

[Guest or Additional Host]

And he had to drink the cup.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah.

[Guest or Additional Host]

He had to go through death. But it's interesting that here it says he was saved from death. So the way he was saved from.

[Tim Mackie]

Death was to go by going through death, that is going through the sword and the fire.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Going through the sword and the fire.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah, yeah, 100%, yeah. And it was, according to Hebrews 5, 7, it was his flesh, it was the divine Son, but in a way, it was like it was his flesh that was saying, I don't want to go through this. I think we're so hyperlinking now, but this is what the apostle Paul is trying to name in his letter to the Romans in chapter seven and eight, where he says, like, in my truest self, I want to do what God commands, right? So when God says, do not covet, do not desire, and he says, what does my flesh end up doing? Desiring all this stuff that's going to kill me. And that's why he says, wretched human that I am, who will save me from this dying body? Yeah, man. That story in the garden is worth a lifetime of prayer and pondering. Because it's the moment when the truest version of what a human is meant to become is what's happening there. And it's when God becomes human, to be that for us, so remarkable so that I can meditate on that story and be like, that's who I can be today.

[Guest or Additional Host]

I can do that.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah. I am capable of. It's going to be hard because I'm in a version of myself and my body. This has all this disordered stuff going on. But it can be bent into union with God's will. Jesus did it.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackie]

And because he did it. Because he can hang in the wilderness.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah. If I'm with him, I can hang too. If I'm with him, I can bend my will, my desire. Or really, is it me bending it at that point or is it him bending it for me?

[Tim Mackie]

That's a great question. Yeah. Paul just said it both ways to the Philippians. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling because God is the one at work in you, both in your doing and in your desiring.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Oh, yeah.

[John Collins]

Is that what it says?

[Tim Mackie]

That's what he says.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Oh, wow.

[Tim Mackie]

And so you're like, is it me or is it God? And Paul's answer is absolutely 100%. How could it ever not be both?

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah. But it can't be you on your own.

[Tim Mackie]

No. Yeah. You on your own is just an illusion. That's called not existing. Okay, so this has been a very rambling meditation on your question, Gareth, but it's a wonderful question. I'm so glad you asked it and brought that up.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah. And we're out of time.

[Tim Mackie]

Yeah.

[Guest or Additional Host]

And there was many more questions, but always that's a great place to end.

[John Collins]

Thank you everyone for your thoughtful questions.

[Guest or Additional Host]

And for engaging with this topic and.

[John Collins]

Then reading through the Bible with us in such a meaningful way.

[Tim Mackie]

So cool. Yeah, we love knowing, especially these Q and R episodes, hearing from y'. All. It's really just a fun reminder that as we sit in this room by ourselves talking into microphones, that we actually are participating in a big Bible reading community. We're learning together as we go.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah.

[Tim Mackie]

Okay.

[John Collins]

Well, why are we doing this whole thing that we call bibleproject?

[Tim Mackie]

It's a great question. We are trying to help people experience the Bible as a unified story that leads to Jesus. That's what bibleproject is, a non profit media studio making all kinds of stuff to help people have that experience.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Yeah.

[John Collins]

And we are able to make everything. Not because it is free to make, but. But it's all been paid for by.

[Guest or Additional Host]

Generous people, which is so wonderful. And we're thankful for everyone who has participated in making it with us.

[Tim Mackie]

This podcast is produced by an amazing group of human beings. Check out the show notes to see some of those names of those images of God. Thanks again for listening and we will see you in the next episode. We're going to start a new series on all of the key words associated with Advent leading up to Christmas. It's going to be fun.