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Cover-up Culture in the Abortion Industry is Really Bad
01:17:48
Don't look away Born alive abortions: Click Here Actual evidence: Click Here Planned Parenthood confessing to breaking the law: Click Here Justice for the five: Click Here AJ’s organization: Click Here My website: https://BibleThinker.org
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- [00:00]
A
The COVID up culture inside the abortion industry is a real thing. They will prosecute you, they will declare war on you, they will attack you in all manner of ways. And so I have a guest today, AJ Hurley is going to talk about what he found and what they did to him to try to cover it up. So AJ why don't you take it away, man?
- [00:18]
B
Yes. So thanks for having me on, Mike. I man was the target of the abortion industry. I was looking at 10 years in federal prison for, for exposing live dismemberment of babies that viable children that could survive outside of the womb. Locked up in DC all of a sudden try to be extradited from DC to California. Being held on felony stalking charges for a woman I'd never met. I exposed through Freedom of Information act requests the grisly practice of fetal organ harvesting in our nation's UC systems, expose it to the world, and for two years did a public information kind of blast. And they came after me with pretty much everything they had. I am facing $50,000 in fines and narrowly escaped a four year legal battle whereby they were trying to lock me up to upwards of 10 years in federal prison for free speech, expose public information blasts and letting the world know of babies being born alive in our medical institutions.
- [01:41]
A
Yeah, we're talking.
- [01:42]
B
That's the gist of it.
- [01:43]
A
We're going to let you tell the whole story. And I went, this is the thing, is the AJ is just one example of one guy. You're not even the only guy that this has happened to in recent years who's tried to expose what's going on inside the abortion industry and then was met with intense lawfare, I think is the popular term for it now.
- [01:59]
B
Right.
- [02:00]
A
Where basically they're immorally trying to use the law to oppress you. I've seen people who are outside just calling out to women who are on their way to an abortion clinic, hey, do you need any help? And then getting arrested for it. So this is not like a gentle, let's see if we can change things in our culture on abortion. Nice and gently. It's a war. This thing is a war. And I think that as Christians we should be like, let's fight this battle and let's use whatever we can that we can use under God and to do that with. So tell us from the beginning. Let's back up. We'll go through all of that in detail. You have a lot to share, mostly. AJ will be talking today, you guys. I brought him here because I met him when I Was at an event last year, basically told me his whole story, and I said, hey, can I please get you on? I want you to tell this to everyone because it's insane that this isn't being carried by all the news media, if you ask me. It's crazy. It's crazy, but it really is entrenched. It is so entrenched. The abortion multi billion dollar industry is so entrenched, and it's evil, satanic, and we should do whatever we can in a godly way to fight against it. So, A.J.
- [03:08]
B
Amen.
- [03:09]
A
Well, feel free to guide us through the journey.
- [03:11]
B
Yeah, feel free to interrupt me along the way. And, you know, I'd like to make it conversational if you have any questions or anything. I'd imagine if I. You have a question, the audience does too. But so a little bit of my background. So I. I work with Seth Gruber. I'm the national outreach director for the White Rose Resistance. I'm Southern California, mainly. Kind of people around there. Wildly popular, but becoming a movement across the nation. Super happy to be at the forefront of that, on the leadership team, but. So My name is A.J. hurley. I grew up in Southern California, went to the master's university, studied, got my education there, became a respiratory therapist. I grew up kind of in the medical field. I worked on the ambulance and then went back to school, became a respiratory therapist, and then got my dream job at UCLA Medical center putting little babies on ventilators. I never in a million years thought I'd be doing that, but it was really cool. So I like to say my. My journey to the pro life movement was so unusual. It didn't start in a. In a, you know, at a rally or at a Seth Gruber speaking event. It started in the halls of a sterile hospital where I was essentially looking into a womb. Now, my wife always tells me, you need to. You need to clarify what you mean by that, AJ Looking into a womb. What does that mean? What I mean by. What I mean by that was this is, you know, I. I was putting these little babies that should be on. In a womb on my life support breathing machine. And essentially these little babies were valuable because we said they're what they were. And little children in another area of the hospital, kind of another building, was the. The area where the abortion clinic was that I wasn't even aware of. Babies way older than the ones I was saving, Mike, were being lifelessly ripped apart, arms torn off their bodies, skulls crushed. And every single day, this painful reality as a Christian man that I was doing Nothing about this wholesale genocide of image bearers of God in the womb, that they're valuable. It was like this dichotomy, this hypocrisy that we're putting millions of dollars of resources into this little child in the name of health care and babies way older in the same name of health care or being violently torn apart. And the only difference between that baby over there and this baby, there is literally a fiat decision as to his mother, as to which one was valuable. And this baby was valuable just because we said they were. And if they weren't, they were subject to die.
- [06:05]
A
So I started so important. I want to encourage the audience as you're watching right now, like, don't, please don't look away. I know that this. This video and the contents we're about to talk about, it's It. It never does well on YouTube, almost never to do any video on this kind of stuff. I know it's hard because there are people who watch, who are even pro life, who are like, I'm already on the same page as you. I just don't want to hear it. But what I want to encourage you guys with is we are the agents of change. If we choose to be on this topic. We really are. You are. You can be an agent of change on this issue, and there's a ton of different ways you can do that. But what we have to do is as a culture, we have to look long and hard at this. Like Josiah's reforms, amazing reforms that happened in the Old Testament. The King Josiah, they find the book of the law, and then they went ahead and read it, and they sat there and read it, and it just exposed it. I'm like, oh, my God. Goodness, look at the evils we're doing. We have so much wickedness in our culture. They literally were doing all the wicked things but weren't seeing it clearly. What we're doing right now is trying to help people see it clearly. Okay. Call this the reading of the book of the law. Right? Thou shalt not murder. This is the idea that we're made in God's image. We're reading these things to us and then taking a serious look at abortion in our culture. Abortion and the way the industry handles. And we'll talk later about the pro life movement towards the end. We'll get into that. And the. The debates you were bringing up with me privately about that. I will talk about some of that. So let's just get into all of it and say, please, Christians, watch this. Please Christians care about this. This is the holocaust of our time. Except that the numbers are far larger. This is way worse than probably any atrocity you've ever read about in human history. And it's happening right now, and it's considered a right and protected. And those who raise their voices are persecuted for it. So there's so many of us that if we just take a long look at what's happening, we can raise up an army, a godly army, to come against it. So, AJ please continue.
- [07:52]
B
100%. Yeah.
- [07:53]
A
But thank you for sharing these things.
- [07:55]
B
Well, I was one of those Christians that just was like, I don't want to get involved because this is political. And then I was just more than more aware that, Wait, hold on. If everything that's good and moral and decent and right and we as Christians are called to fight against is labeled as political, Satan lights up and says, oh, amazing. All I have to do is label everything that's godly as political. And I can ensure the silence of the church. And this was what I was gripped at. So I. I'll never forget the day that. That I changed. And as I was being convicted, as these babies were rebuking me with 10. As the. With the force of 10, 000 armies that I would, I refused to be silent. It was. I literally went down to. Into the lunch counter, and it was a huge department. We're eating lunch, and the head of my department walks in, and something on the TV triggered her. And she said, I can't believe these Republican men telling women what to do with their bodies. And the Holy Spirit was just tugging on me like, are you say something? Defend these children. She brought it up. It's not like you're getting political at the lunch hour and this long silence and you could have heard a pin drop. And I said nothing. And I went back into the elevator, went up to the fifth floor, looked into a womb, as I say, and I just literally ran to the bathroom in tears. I got on my knees and said, lord, today's the day. I'm never being silent about this any longer. And, man, my life was transformed. I started getting involved with the pro life movement with an organization it's called Survivors of the Bullshit Holocaust in Southern California. And then I became aware of a guy named David Delighten. His work. David, delighted, did those expose videos of Planned Parenthood where he haggled the organs. He created a fictitious organization buying organs. And he just recorded these people selling the organs of children for research contracts. And I was just blown away by this.
- [10:07]
A
And. And then I said, completely illegal.
- [10:09]
B
Completely illegal. And then I said, is this happening at my hospital? What is going on? So we started FOIA requesting tons, hundreds of FOIA requests for fetal organ tissue logs and anything having to do with Freedom of Information act requests in reference to fetuses and fetal research, fetal tissue. And what we got back was absolutely unbelievable. I mean, fetal tissue logs, brother lungs and livers and thymuses and I mean, literally, I hate to be grotesque, but clitorises and penises of six month gestational babies that they were grafting on lab rats for every type of diabolical experimentation you can imagine. And this is all public information and nobody was talking about this. So we found out that the belly of the beast in terms of fetal tissue research, Fetal explorer exploration and experimentation was happening at the University of California, San Francisco, ucsf. And so we just exposed it all. We had pictures of intestines of children hanging off of lab rats. And we did a two year, it's actually still ongoing, so it's been about maybe six years now. But we did a two year old public information campaign exposing it, standing on public property at UCSF with huge signs with links to the Federal Information Act, FOIA transparency documents.
- [11:56]
A
And we're gonna, we're gonna put some links down below when we're done here. You're gonna send me some stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lots of research, you guys. It'll be linked down below as well.
- [12:06]
B
So what we found got worse and worse. We actually found that through David Delighten's research that the way that they were doing this, in order to get viable tissue, they have to do it in such a way that violates the Born Alive Infants Protection Act. And for all intents and purposes, by every single amount of research available to us, babies are being either born alive or they are violating the Born Alive Infants Protection Acts in federal law. So I could get into that, the specifics of that, if you want. I don't know if you want me to continue and just tell where you want to go from here, but it would take about five minutes for me to explain how, how that's even possible.
- [12:49]
A
Sure, we can do that. But let's, let's put it in context for everybody just so we know, like what they're doing is no matter how they're killing these humans, it's evil and wrong and immoral.
- [12:59]
B
Yes.
- [12:59]
A
But what we can do is we can say, hey, at least as we're searching to try to stop things and put a stamp on things, we can use laws that are present to say, hey, you guys are even violating the not enough violence, the stated laws that.
- [13:12]
B
You put in place.
- [13:13]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're even violating those things. It's to show that this stuff is so depraved. I guarantee you these people go home and they sleep peacefully in their bed and they have no conscience about it. And they laugh at us for even thinking that it's a problem. The depravity and the conscience being seared is so hard. It's just exactly what scripture says. God gave them over to a debased mind. And this issue of killing of humans, always wrong. But what can we do except try to get laws passed and then try to use whatever laws we have present to prosecute at least the violations of those laws while we're seeking to change things in a bigger way. And we'll talk about that more as we go. But go ahead and tell us an.
- [13:53]
B
Abortion is already wrong. But like, what everybody should see as like, regardless, even if you're pro choice, they are doing this on viable children. We have fetal tissue logs of six month gestational babies, 24 weeks old. Babies have survived outside of the weeks, just over 20 weeks.
- [14:12]
A
I know one, my friend's daughter.
- [14:13]
B
Yeah, yeah. And so they have to violate these laws. And if I'm wrong on this, please sue me because I would love to actually take you to discovery and, and, and show and prove to the world that this is all happening. But so how it works is second after the first trimester, there are two abortion procedures. There's four total. There's four ways to kill a baby through abortion. One, the first two are happened in the first trimester. The second late term happened in the second and third. So in order to kill a second second trimester baby, the ones that we're getting these tissue requests for, you have to do what's called either a DNE dilation and evacuation or a labor induction. Now basically, just for simplicity sake, you dilate the, the woman's cervix for two days, for two days by inserting something called laminaria. It's a big, big sponge, makes a big gaping hole. And then you either insert surgical instruments and tear apart limb by limb, or you just induce labor and you give birth to a child. Now you ask how does this baby not come out alive if you're doing an induction, if you're inducing labor in delivering the child, well, they, a day before, they take a long needle through the woman's stomach and they gave a lethal dose of a drug called Digoxin. That stops the baby's heart. Now the problem is if you need to get these organs for fetal research, that drug nukes all of the stem cells of the tissues that you need for fetal organization research. So how are so no money. So the, the. Now if you do it through a disarticulation with the first procedure, the dnc, the only way to get viable tissue is to change the abortion procedure and specifically alter it to where you can not damage the tissues that you want. The problem with that is it's a huge violation of federal law. The Born Alive Infants Protection act and the partial birth abortion ban says that you cannot alter the abortion procedure in any way. And so either way, if you abide by the law, you cannot get at the end of the process legal, a legal way to acquire these organs. So we caught them red handed in this and rather than change their policies, I mean we went to every single lever of power. We lobbied the regents, we showed up at regency meetings and city council meetings, the whole thing, bringing forth our research and they just would hand wave it. So after two years of being there on public property with a sign and handing out tens of thousands of literature pieces from the ucs, all of the hospital around, all of the university medical buildings, the, the university, the colleges, they started just illegally arresting me. So they would arrest me for trespassing on public property and then the DA would just throw it out because I was on public property. So they arrested me about eight times. They arrested my colleagues. They were just doing everything they can to make us go away and have us not shed light on this. Um, well, what we did was we kept on, we just did big protests. We got people on there causing a ruckus and, and doing prayer events. We did rallies, the whole deal. And the, the anti. Just started getting elevated and elevated. They just wanted us to go away. Well, I don't know if you guys remember, but there was this thing called justice for the Five that happened. Do you know what that is, Mike?
- [18:28]
A
Only a little bit. You should explain.
- [18:29]
B
Okay. Yeah. So we did a west coast tour, hitting all these spots and an east coast tour hitting all these spots on the east coast tour. I was in Washington D.C. where two of my friends were outside of one of the abortion clinics and they found a box of aborted children on its way to a medical waste facility. They picked this box up and it was essentially given to them by the medical waste driver who had transported them from the abortion clinic into his truck and had no clue that he was picking up dead babies. They convinced him to let a pastor have these children and give them a burial. They opened this box. There's 115 aborted babies inside. Five of them were third trimester, nearly full term children. And they had overwhelming evidence of everything. We're talking about born alive abortions, partial birth abortion. One of the babies was still in its amniotic sack. Never before in 20 years had anybody ever seen this or knew that it was still happening. I mean, we knew it was happening, but every, you know, the world just said, oh, that's a, that's a, you know, conspiracy theory that third trimester happens or they only happen if the mom's, you know, dying. And, and so this became a huge news story because of the overwhelming evidence that babies were being born alive.
- [20:07]
A
The thing is this is, it's not just, this is a random box.
- [20:10]
B
This is a one random box of aborted tens of thousands of boxes every day that are picked up across the nation. One box in the 20 years. And this is.
- [20:21]
A
Right, it shows. Where was this, where was this at?
- [20:23]
B
This was in Washington D.C. at the Washington Surgery Center.
- [20:28]
A
Washington Surgery Center.
- [20:30]
B
An abortionist named Cesare Santangelo. So this made national news. We turned the babies over to the dcpd. Mayor Bowser and the head of the chief of police did a public press conference and said nothing to see here. You can kill a baby to the day birth in D.C. so no, you know, no investigation will be performed, no autopsies will be done, go away. And they would have ex, they would have incinerated these babies. But Congress got involved. Marjorie Taylor Greene, Anna Paulina Luna, Ted Cruz. A bunch of people said no, that this is murder and don't, don't destroy this evidence or we're going to come after you.
- [21:09]
A
Can I just say, I think that part of the hubris that they have to do this, knowing that there's got to be so many people in the hospital on staff, individuals who know the parent, the mothers themselves, who know that these procedures are happening that are not legal. But they, there's this sort of what state are they in again?
- [21:29]
B
D.C. yeah.
- [21:31]
A
So they know it's not, nothing's going to happen here. They know the mayor's going to come out and be like, don't worry, we won't even investigate. We will not even investigate to confirm the details of what happened. Guys, continue as you were. That's, that's a dog whistle for the rest of the, the, the abortion clinics keep doing business as usual.
- [21:48]
B
Absolutely. They, even when you catch these people red handed with either our FOIA Requests and UCSF or literally held. I mean, I took photos and videos, Mike, of babies this big with overwhelming evidence that they had born alive. Every single one of these babies, Mike, could have survived at UCLA with little to zero medical help at all. And I mean babies can survive at that gestational age. The only reason why you need to kill them and not adopt them is specifically because you want these children to be killed. But I mean, we saw that with David Delighten. He exposes this whole thing. Gets video evidence of these people admitting it over lunch, admitting it in public. And the only person who has ever prosecuted is the man who exposed it themselves. Insane.
- [22:40]
A
Absolutely insane. This is, this is high level organized.
- [22:44]
B
Government cover up 1000%. So huge national news story breaks forth all the photos and videos of these babies. Justice for the five. You can look it up. Washington, D.C. justice for the five. Go everywhere. And all of a sudden I get swooped up by, by the police in D.C. and they hold me in, I kid you not, brother, a cage that was this wide and about the length of my body for two days. And I wish I was in solitary confinement because they put me in there with the lice ridden schizophrenic man screaming and maniacally laughing for 48 hours.
- [23:32]
A
Oh my gosh.
- [23:33]
B
And they're just trying to wear you down? They don't wear you down why I'm being held. They don't tell me what's going on. They don't tell me when I'm getting a bit out. And I'll tell you what the psychological effects. It was, it was so dark in there. You don't, they don't tell you what time it is. So I don't know whether it's night or day, what when I'm getting out. And just the psychological effects of none. I cannot imagine what the J6ers went through for that for six months to a year, even longer. But it was just so traumatizing. So they put me in a bigger holding cell for about six days and they finally bring me for a judge and they start reading my charges. Mr. Hurley is a fugitive from justice, being held on felony stalking charges and list a whole litany of charges from vandalism to face act to trespassing, resisting arrest, all of these things. And I'm just like, dude, you've got the wrong guy. This is, must be some huge clerical error, something they, they try to extradite me from dc, put me in a bus all the way to San Francisco. Thank God the judge was like, dude, this Guy has no charges. He's never, he's never been, he's never been arrested before his life. He's got no convictions on his record. Like, what are you trying to do? Has mercy on me and lets me fly back the next day to turn myself in. They held me six days there and I entered a four year legal battle on felony stalking charges for a woman I've never said two words to or even met. I met her once in my life in passing, and all of a sudden this is what I'm looking at. Up to 10 years in federal prison, up to $50,000 in charges and fines which I'm still facing. And all for exposing babies born alive in D.C. and babies being harvested in our federally tax funded research projects at the University of California, San Francisco. So that's, that's, that's the just of it. I mean, I can go into more of. I mean, they, they came to my house, they took all of my guns on red flag laws, just strict conditions of release. I had to call twice a week, actually, initially first, for the first two years, it was three times a week. Then they knock it down to two, twice a week, letting them know where I'm at, what's going on, as if I'm some, you know, mass murderer or something. All for standing up and, and exposing what these people are doing in secret.
- [26:32]
A
It's insane. It's absolutely insane. You've got all this going on, is there. Do you get to hit back with like malicious prosecution or something like that?
- [26:41]
B
So that, so that how that works is. The answer is no. You have to beat all the charges first. And they know they have you by the. You know what? Because how it works in these liberal cities is they charge you with everything under the sun. And then they say this, okay, you can either plead to X charges, which they were saying, we want you to be a felon, never be able to vote, never be able to own firearms again. And, and then we'll let you plea to this. I'm like, plea to felony stalking? I didn't stalk anyone. What are you talking about? Or they say, okay, you can go to a jury trial in San Francisco on stalking an abortionist and see how that goes for you. So every single lawyer I'm looking at, I've consulted with, and plenty of them independently say this, AJ none of this makes any legal sense whatsoever. They don't have a single shred of, of. Of to, to convict you of this stuff. But if you go to a jury trial in San Francisco, they will just basically convict you for just being pro life there, you have close to a zero percent chance of coming out without they. Everyone is saying you're probably looking at least two years, probably three years in federal prison when this is all done.
- [28:18]
A
This is what you're expecting to be the outcome of what's happening now.
- [28:22]
B
So thankfully we shed massive light on this. And after a four year legal battle, I took a plea deal of 2, 2 misdemeanors for zero time. But, but until the 11th hour, none of them were saying they would offer that. And we basically lawyered up to the hilt and we put as much of legal pressure as possible with the best lawyers you could probably put on this.
- [28:50]
A
Right. You're in a rare position where you actually, because things got so much media, you were able to get more support. You had a lot of people coming behind you to support you, whereas the average person would just, would have no recourse. They would have, they would just be in jail and what'd you get in jail for? And be like, yeah, I don't know. I don't, I don't know. I tried to say that I showed evidence that these guys are breaking the law. So now I'm in jail because we have a corrupt system, because we have corrupt leaders, because we have corrupt jurors that are convinced that the evidence doesn't matter, that they don't want any laws guarding and protecting babies, they just want abortion on demand, paid for by taxpayers happening as much as possible. It blows my mind that we live in a culture that actually has something called the shout your abortion campaign that's celebrate you killing your own kid campaign.
- [29:46]
B
Totally.
- [29:47]
A
Yeah.
- [29:47]
B
And the fact of the matter is how the system is set up is all of these judges are all appointed by either Obama abide in all these people. And I mean, you saw this at my plea hearing is, I mean I was just treated like an absolute piece of trash. You know, this, this abortionist goes on, on the record saying that somehow she felt threatened for her life. I don't know why. We've never, never said anything but loving things to her, pleading the gospel to her and you know, but they'll. If I was to go to a trial on this. Well, how they, how it works is none of the justifications for what we did, all the Freedom of information act requests, none of that is a legal defense. None of that. You can't, they will say you can't bring in any of that in court. They, I mean my friend was, was prosecuted under similar things and they said you can't even say the word abortion in your defense because it has to be about the facts of the case and whether or not this or so a justification of the rights or protections of preborn is specifically barred from, from court. And they will, they will call you in contempt if you make it about any reasons or justifications for the legality of what you were trying to, to highlight that.
- [31:08]
A
That sounds crazy. That sounds insane like, that. The jury would need to have that information to make a judgment, wouldn't they? Anyway, I don't know. I'm not a lawyer. I just. Morality. That's wrong. It's immoral. Okay? I don't know the law. I know, I know morality, and that's immoral. And so, so you, because you, you took a plea deal because the advice your attorneys are saying, you're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna lose because of, they're gonna bring you to San Francisco for this and you're gonna get the same San Francisco people. And does that mean you don't have the ability to like, do something about the malicious prosecution or whatever the right term for it is?
- [31:43]
B
Well, I, I, I would if I hadn't taken a plea deal. How, how it works is you, you have to win all of the charges outright, you have to beat those in court, and then you can present that forward, but the price is just too high. And I think this is, this is the right. If there's a silver lining here, brother, it was this, you know, as when I, when I, they put me in D.C. and I'm sitting in this, this dungeon of tiny cages. I was put on this bunk bed with no mattress, no pillow. It's literally a sheet, sheet metal sleeping on. And like, God is just, I'm like to say that I wasn't afraid in that situation to say that, like, I would totally be lying to you. I mean, I, my anxiety was through the roof and I had this, it was just like a crisis of conscience. Like, aj what are you doing here? You are, you, you know, you had the six figure salary, you had the dream job at UCLA Medical Center. You know, you had the great place to live and the beautiful wife and the everything only to be facing like you're sitting in this tiny cell picking lice out of your hair. Like, surely, God, this is not what you had envisioned for my life. But what was amazing about that time was God, he didn't peel back. All the anxiety was still there. But what he showed me was something that was just profound. It was that, like, you know, James o' Keefe has this classic line. He says, everyone has a price, but if your price is not your life, then you are for sale. And to me, it was like all of a sudden, the secret to ending abortion was like, right in front of me. We don't. It's. Abortion exists right now in America not because we love babies too little, because we love our lives too much, we love our comfort too much. And I'm sitting there and God is saying, if the price that you're willing to endure to end abortion is not at least this and as much as your life, literally, the cost of discipleship is the cost to end abortion. And until we recognize as Christians that the price that we should be willing to pay, whether it be our jobs or our careers or our money, our time, our treasure, our influence, if that doesn't reach the level of what Jesus says, if anyone comes after me and wants to be my disciple and is not willing to go to the cross for me, is not willing to die for me, he's not fit to be my disciple. And we understand that, Mike, when it, if somebody puts a gun to your head and says, reject Christ or I'm going to kill you, we understand that as the sacrifice for discipleship. We quickly see that in a different category. When the price is how much are you willing to suffer to love the least of these, how much are you willing to endure for the price to end this great, great demonic evil of child sacrifice in your land? What is your price? And if your price is not the cost of discipleship, if you see it as anything else, we will never end this evil.
- [35:54]
A
I think there's a lot of wise words and a good, sober wake up call. And I think there's another element to it for, for people, which is we want to be guaranteed that when we pay a price for something that it's going to work. And I think there's an element where we have to go, no, you have to actually go in, pay the price, and not know if it's going to work or not, but know that what you did was worthy. It was a worthy act. I stepped out and I tried because there's so much defeatism that keeps people from even trying because they just think, I just don't see how that's going to work. I don't see how that's going to be successful. And I'm going, man, people who've changed the world, in hindsight, it's like they just bootstrapped the whole thing. You know, God used them in great ways. And it's not like you could have predicted this will work. You couldn't have. Mostly it's just it worked. And it worked because not only they did it, but before them, lots of other people tried. And that ended up being the groundwork for transformation. But they never knew this for their whole lives. They never knew it. And so I think that there's something healthy about going, I will lay my life down for godly causes to serve the Lord, and I won't look back to test the fruit because that will only slow me down. I just need to march ahead and serve.
- [37:04]
B
It's so good. I mean, so one of the talks in our training for White Rose resistance, we talk about the three things that you need to do to change the world. This is the talk I gave, is one, you need to know the truth is Christ, you need to live the truth and you need to die for the truth. And so the last thing is the thing that nobody wants to do, you know, is we're willing, if we could, as you said, if we could have this guarantee, you know, if. If I said to anybody, any Christian listening, would you give up your life to. If you could be guaranteed that abortion would end? I'd imagine most people maybe would say yes to that. But it's the unknown of will we labor and tarry and give our lives for something that we will never ever maybe even see the fruit of. And I mean, that's what Jesus says, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies and remains alone. And he says those two things dies and remains alone. Those are two probably the two worst things. Maybe something worse than death is just abandonment.
- [38:15]
A
Yeah, Well, I think it says unless it dies, it does remain alone, it won't produce fruit. Right. It has to die to multiply.
- [38:25]
B
Yeah. And so the cost of abandonment, the cost of dying to yourself, that is what it takes to change the world. I mean, that's what changed the world. And 12 ordinary bumbling fishermen idiots overthrew in three centuries the Roman Empire through a peaceful revolution of sorts of just not with strength of chariots and horses and swords and armor, but with the message that gives life of this second person of the Godhead who went through every single stage of human development dignifying once and for all the embryonic stage, the fetal stage of human development, that birth freedom and has echoes of liberty and justice that reverberated into human history and ended slavery and give. Give dignity to women and ended abortion and infanticide. And there is no secret, you know, to changing the world. It's Right. It's through the gospel. It's through the gospel, yeah.
- [39:38]
A
And it was Christians in the early church who would. So Romans would take their, you know, this, I'm sure, would take their babies that they didn't want, and they would leave them out on the porch or on the street, and then the dogs at night would go through the city. And basically that was their. Their way of getting rid of the kids they didn't want. And Christians would come and rescue these children and raise them as their own. And this was something that believers did. You know, the Didache had. One of the earliest extra biblical texts we have of new Christian from Christianity is saying that we don't do this, we don't expose our children. This is something Christians don't do. We rescue them, we don't expose them. And that's not the case.
- [40:15]
B
When the Didache even talks about abortion, it says, starts off, there's two paths to life, one of life and one of death. Thou shalt not kill a child from abortion or destroy that which has already been generated. And St. Basil in the fourth century used his power and influence to make abortion a crime throughout the Roman Empire. And he literally says, she who delivers deliberately destroys a fetus is. Shall be guilty of the crime of murder along with those who give her the abortifacient poisons. So it wasn't this thing just merely of babies with infanticide outside of. Of the womb, on high places, being exposed to the elements. It was also because they understood something. The incarnation shatters every single demonic ideology that dehumanizes what's in the womb. Because abortion is literally a Christological heresy. Because it would assert that at some point God was fully human, but not a divine person. So this is one thing I love to ask pro choice Christians, if you could even call them, that is, I say, well, you believe in the Trinity, right? Like, you believe that Christ is fully divine. Well, at what point of Christ's human life did he become a divine person? And you're putting this really big quagmire because that would violate the hypostatic union, Right? Jesus was fully divine from the single second that he became a human being. He took upon human flesh, and there was no point in his life that he wasn't that second person, divine person, a God man in the womb.
- [42:04]
A
Yeah. Amen. I mean, yeah, in the imago dei. And there's so many theological principles that just make this very plain and clear. What we have, though, is we have questions that remain like, what do Christians do? What are the Most effective ways of actually bringing change in the culture. What, what is like the marching orders for how we can over the Next, whether it's 10 years or 50 years or 100 years, change everything and put a stop to it. And you, you know, you guys spend more time thinking about this than I do.
- [42:34]
B
What do you think? Well, I love this question because I always, I always say there's a biblical middle ground and then there's ditches on either side of the road. So on one side of the ditch is this kind of social gospel or liberation theology where it says essentially clean up society, you know, put a band aid on everything, make people really moral. And that's the call of Christians, right? Is, is this liber Christianity is just this liberating force that just is a social kind of cleansing apparatus where we clean everybody is up, up their lives and give this Christless redemption. On the other side of the ditch is something you and I grew up in Calvary Chapel and the Harvest Crusade and the whole thing, which tends, I love, love the movement, but I think what I heard growing up was like, we don't get involved in the politics, we just preach the gospel. So it's like as if the gospel didn't have to do with loving your neighbor. The gospel didn't have to do with like issues in society that intersect with, with laws and, and legal things that dehumanize the, the, the human person. And so I think the biblical ground is, is Christ not only the gospel, but in the Great Commission, it starts with all authority in heaven and earth has been given to me, therefore go and preach the gospel. And when I do, I, I. The gospel affects every single area of life, right? So if, if I meet a guy on the street and I say, and he tells me he's been sleeping with his girlfriend, well, I tell him, hey, that's wrong. That's something that God has explicitly forbid that separates you from God, Be reconciled to God, repent of those things and come to Christ and he will regenerate you, give you a new heart, and everything in your life is transformed. We understand that in a personal capacity of personal sin. But for some reason we don't make those like is just like suddenly if abortion is in view that those aren't things that the gospel is touches, you know, and so it's huge.
- [45:02]
A
Obviously. Yeah, there's, there's no reason in any way, shape or form for Christians to cede any ground or any, any like authority to speak to the topic of abortion. We're to cry out for the Oppressed. True religion is what it's helping. The weak, Right?
- [45:18]
B
Yeah.
- [45:19]
A
Fatherless, the orphans, the widows. These are the people you, you, you help out. And how much does a child need to be helped when their own mother is trying to get them killed? When doctors and government are colluding against them to get them killed? I mean, the Egyptian midwives are lauded in scripture for the same reason that I would applaud anybody, even if it's messy and they're getting involved in pro life causes and trying to help and make a difference and make a change. And I'd be like, you guys are reaching out to save the ones who are about to be destroyed. This is a beautiful and good thing.
- [45:51]
B
Yeah. And so, I mean, there have been pro life organizations that I know of that will make people sign a statement saying, I will not use the gospel. And it's like, what are you talking about? I mean, what were.
- [46:03]
A
Who makes. What organizations make people sign those statements?
- [46:05]
B
Oh, man, I don't want to put them on blast publicly.
- [46:11]
A
Hey, man, you're making people sign it. What are you talking about?
- [46:14]
B
I know, I know, I know. They have since softened some of their stance on that. I want to be very careful because I work with these people.
- [46:22]
A
Tell them that they need to stop.
- [46:24]
B
Maybe I'll.
- [46:24]
A
I'll put them on blast for it.
- [46:27]
B
But. But it's like you're. You're destroying the one force that can actually change a human heart. I mean, what we're. What I'm experiencing all the time on college campuses is more and more, as society is being degenerated, young people are. They know what's in the womb. It's not like 50 years ago when people said, oh, if wombs had windows and if people just saw a 5D ultrasound, they would all. They'd be pro life. We could just convince them of the science that human beings. Human beings in the womb, they all know it's a human being. Now, a majority, most of the. The young people in college campuses I talk to, they're like, no, I know it's a human. It's not a person yet. And so at that point, what do you do when they agree with you that the science confirms exactly what you've been saying? But they just say, I, I think we should just have the choice to be able to kill it.
- [47:27]
A
Because this is what Bill Maher said a few. A number of years ago.
- [47:30]
B
Yeah.
- [47:30]
A
He was like, let's just be honest. We know this is a baby. We just think it's okay to kill it.
- [47:35]
B
Yeah, he Just. He said. He said, I know it's murder. I'm just okay with that.
- [47:43]
A
So, aj, you're on a college campus. You have a student come up to you, and they say that, and what do you say? It changes their mind that you find useful.
- [47:56]
B
All pro life talk goes out the window. And now, now we are having. And I'm. I don't know. I. What. I. I love the presuppositional model of apologetics. It's like, okay, let's talk about morality. Let's talk about truth. What is your epistemic justification for. For morality, even in your worldview? And then just breaking them down, helping them see that all truth belongs to God, all morality. If you. If you reject God, you have no basis for these things, because morality is just a societal convention, and it's a gospel conversation. And I. I think it's such a shame that. That Christians have kind of divorced these political issues, because the, The. The success of Charlie Kirk and why we're seeing a mini revival take place among young men right now is because he went into the public square in an area that the church had essentially abandoned for so long in this area of politics. But politics now is like, core identity. Who am I like? What. What. What am I like? What is the meaning of life? You know, what is my core identity? Am I trans? Am I this? Am I homosexual? Am I that? And the world is offering solutions to these that are hotly political issues. And this is the place where Christians need to be championing the dignity and the humanity and the ontology of the human person and giving people a worldview that is so much greater than this reductionistic, kind of nihilistic materialism that is being pushed upon them in college campuses now. This is the place, the darkest places of America where the church needs to engage that.
- [49:49]
A
Yeah, there's. So we could talk about that for a lot a long time. But I want to. I want to target something that you brought up earlier. So I'm genuinely. And I'm tell this to the audience, guys. I don't know the details here. Okay. I don't know if I'll even fully agree with whatever AJ Says here. I'm probably not qualified to weigh in yet. So I. But I want him to give him a chance, as someone who knows more about it than I do, to just kind of talk about it. The issue of the internal disagreements that are inside the pro life movement.
- [50:17]
B
Yeah.
- [50:18]
A
Now, I'm aware that there's, like, the abolitionist and there's different camps of abolitionists, and I'M aware, and I don't want to get too into the weeds on this because it's just. But one thing you brought up to me privately, we were talking, is that there are some pro life organizations that will actively seek to stop legislation from being passed which would protect kids in the womb. Babies in the womb. Can you explain that to us?
- [50:43]
B
Yes. So let me just briefly break down the, The. The definitions of these groups. Okay. The. The far end. I would consider myself an abolitionist. I want to abolish abortion. So if that. And I think it should be a crime for anybody who kills a child. So if that makes me an abolitionist, sign me up. I'm not married to the term. I'm not going to change.
- [51:02]
A
That's all abolitionism is. I'm signed up, too, 100%. Although I know there's people who use the term and they mean other things that I don't.
- [51:08]
B
Yes.
- [51:08]
A
I don't hold.
- [51:09]
B
So what they mean by that, and they wouldn't consider me an abolitionist, is because I will. I will accept incremental progress along the way, provided it's actually and truly the best we can get. So if I can get a heartbeat passed in Heartbeat Bill passed in California, sign me up. I'm voting for it. If that's truly the best we can do. Right.
- [51:29]
A
So me and you actually are on the same page here.
- [51:32]
B
Yes. Yes. So they would say no, that if you vote for that heartbeat bill, you're actually telling America that you can kill babies without heartbeats. And I would say no, that's completely not true at all. The law is already doing that. Because of the law in California, you can kill every single child up to the moment of birth. So what we're doing is we're giving back the result, the, the rights of children with heartbeats. And we recognize that if we don't, all of the babies are going to be killed and legally have our open season on them. So they, they don't want. They. They would appeal to passages like in Isaiah. Woe to those who decree iniquitous decrees to rob the poor of my people from justice. Justice, and only justice shall you pursue. I don't think that they hold that consistently because. Okay, what about taxation? You know, like if, if I'm getting taxed, if you combine everything right now, probably up to 50 of my income, if you just add everything up. But if we could get that down to 11%, I doubt you'd be opening up for Samuel saying, this is a judgment that, you know, if you take a king to rule over you that you're going to take your sons and daughters to war and tax you up to a tenth. You know, if God says a tenth is judgment, I can't do eleven.
- [52:53]
A
So I would, I would point out, biblically speaking, the passage you quote or they quote for that it's not just the passing of an unjust law, it's the result of the passing of the unjust law. So you pass an unjust law to, and it has a negative impact on the poor, the destitute, or those who can defend themselves. And so that is where to me the break goes. I go, hold on, I'm sorry. If I flash forward a year, it's, let's say 10,000 babies are saved because this law was passed. And if we don't pass it, 10,000 babies die. The result of the law is positive. But the thing that gets me is the homosexual movement. Their incrementalism worked fantastically. Right. When they passed civil unions, you didn't have, now you had some people going, oh, I don't want to do this because it's not good enough. We should have gay marriage, not civil unions. This is like us saying that we don't really count as marriage. But real advocates knew that this was just a stepping stone.
- [53:46]
B
Absolutely no. 100%.
- [53:48]
A
I think in a pragmatic way, you look at it and you go, it doesn't mean I'm fully a pragmatist in every way. It's like every time you say pragmatic in any way, people accuse you of being a pure pragmatist. But it seems to me that an incremental path is viable. Sometimes when you can't get something done right away. And I think that this has happened with, in England with slave stuff, because they didn't overcome it with the Civil War. They overcame it slowly. They would find any loophole, any political angle they could take, and it worked. So this seems viable to me.
- [54:21]
B
Yep. And then so the far end of the other spectrum is the, what I call the pro life establishment, where, you know, we're at the five yard line and they're kicking field goals essentially, you know, like, let's get it like. And they've actually lost, in my opinion. This is demonstrated. We've, we've been dealing with Roe v. Wade for so long and fought this incrementally for 50 years that I believe some core, just fundamentally feminist ideology has crept in and, and become foundational in, in the perspective of, of these people that, where they actually see all women who get abortions as victims and they essentially outright reject any criminal sanctions at all. So right now in Texas, this is where we at. We, we actually did the incremental thing and we passed a life at conception bill saying all abortions are illegal in Texas from conception. Okay? That is the law now and only with one clause, that none of the above applies to a mother who is pregnant. So right now in Texas, a woman who is eight or nine months pregnant can order pills online, have them shipped to her house and induce with misoprostol side attack an eight or nine month abortion and do so in front of a police officer and not a single thing will happen to her. Now if her, if her boyfriend put those pills in her drink, he would get a murder charge. Because we have this kind of fundamental dogma that women who kill their babies in America are our victims. So this second victim narrative is the, the problem I think that we're facing. So National Right to Life put out a letter saying that not only will we never support criminal punishment for, for women in the who get abortions in the future, but there will never be a time where we support that. And the problem right now is there was 30,000 up to upwards of between 25 and 30,000 legal abortions in Texas last year. And the pro life movement is totally okay with this loophole, provided that the mom does it herself. So there's tons of establishment groups, Concerned Women for America, National Right to Life, Susan B. Anthony list, the big five or four largest pro life organizations in America, White Rose Resistance and a few others, are the only organizations that say what we all know is fundamentally true. And our very own Declaration of Independence champions is that all men are created equal, endowed by the Creator with inalienable rights, such as the right to life. And so if you believe that children in the womb have equal rights, none of that means anything if you make it legally available and legal to sanction the murder, provided their mother does it. So we want the same laws passed eventually. Now how we get there is another question. But what's happening right now is I was just in the areas that we can get this done, in the areas that we don't need to change culture like we had all the votes. Areas with Republican super majorities like Florida, Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, South Dakota, South, South Carolina. The very organizations that are showing up to lobby with Planned Parenthood, with aclu, with National Abortion Federation to kill bills that give prenatal children the same rights as toddlers have, are being killed by these pro life organizations.
- [58:26]
A
I have so many things I want to say Right now. So let me start with one question.
- [58:30]
B
Sure.
- [58:31]
A
Is there any reason why you shouldn't name these organizations that are actively doing this?
- [58:35]
B
Oh, I just did. Yeah. I don't think so. I mean, it's. If. If you publicly stand up and do this in public, then I think it's fair game for you to be called out in public.
- [58:47]
A
So. So who is it? Tell us again, then. Who is who? What are they? Org.
- [58:51]
B
Susan B. Anthony. Listen, National Right to Life, Concerned Women for America, Heartbeat International. Let me think. In the past, they're. They're kind of moving away from this a little bit now, but in the past, organizations like Students for Life have done this as well. So, yeah, there's all the major ones. Man.
- [59:18]
A
So there's two reasons I can think for people to do this. One is the one you just enumerated, which is like a type of. I would call it, critical theory that comes in and it sees the woman as, like, kind of an oppressed category, and so she can't be seen as perpetrator in this context. Another would be people who think, okay, privately, between you and me, A.J. i think that, yeah, we should prosecute parents who get their kids killed. Like, yeah, that's a thing you're supposed to do. But I don't think that strategically we should say that out loud because it's going to. It's going to be used to stir opposition to the movement very successfully because of our culture. And that. I understand that. That makes sense why you're like, yeah, if you're asked certain questions, that's to move the conversation onto something that isn't even really on the table right now. But it doesn't mean it's not true. And there's something that's bold and true about people saying, look, if these babies have human rights, then you prosecute people who kill them. Right. Isn't that how it works?
- [60:26]
B
Totally.
- [60:26]
A
Now they can push back and say, but maybe the woman didn't know. I've known women who had abortions really didn't know what was going on and found out when they were in the bathroom. And then they see their child in a toilet, and then they're going, they told me. They lied to me. Because these abortion clinics routinely lie to the ladies.
- [60:46]
B
Absolutely.
- [60:47]
A
So that obviously has to be factored in. And you have to factor in all the different things.
- [60:52]
B
And our laws do that.
- [60:53]
A
Yeah, yeah. But to say that, like, a woman who knowingly, intentionally kills her own baby, and you're gonna. You'll factor in everything. Pressures or she was forced or lied to. But to say that we will always oppose there being any criminality to that, seems like what you're doing is you're saying, I don't really believe this is a human.
- [61:14]
B
Yeah, well, so a few things on the whole, women that are true, like I totally agree that there are probably very many women who really are victims. And, and our laws account for that. Right. So the law itself treats everyone as innocent until proven guilty. But I think the, the women's that, the women that are coerced, the women who actually have been sex trafficked, who have been had pimps, the women who have abusive boyfriends or fathers or whatever that are forcing them to go to the abortion clinic and doing this, those women actually are true victims. But the problem is, is right now, the law actually doesn't protect them. And in treating women as a whole class of victims outright at the onset, you're actually not protecting him. This is what I mean by this. So right now, coercion only applies to violence. Right. So it might be illegal for me, Mike, to force you to take Tylenol, but there are many ways of me forcing you to take Tylenol.
- [62:27]
A
Right.
- [62:29]
B
Like outside of me shoving Tylenol down your throat or slipping it into your drink, I can tell you, hey, I'm going to kick you out in the street. I'm going to break up with you. I'm going to do X, Y and Z unless you do this. Those are all legal ways of force. If the underlying action of taking Tylenol is legal. Now, right now, the underlying action of taking mifepristone and misoprostol, the abortion pills, is seen as that legal as taking a Tylenol in these states.
- [63:06]
A
So now being shipped across state lines, people don't often know this, but so there'll be a state where they say, this abortion's illegal in this state. And then without proper medical examinations, California, Other other countries, other, other states, it's like another country. I live there. I know, but they'll, they'll actually mail over these abortive patient drugs to win.
- [63:31]
B
Completely legal.
- [63:32]
A
Yeah. And so what they're seeing is this increase in mailing because at the same time as Roe v. Wade gets overturned, then they approve of another pill that people can take to kill their kids. And so the battle's extensive. And actually pro choicers, pro choicers use this. And actually some pro lifers, it disgusts me, they use this as an argument against overturning Roe v. Wade because they say, well, we overturn Roe v. Wade, but there's actually an increase in the number of abortions, as if there's like some magical correlation causation thing going on here. And you're like, dude, they approved a new drug. They're shipping it around the world. That's the cause. Overturning Roe v. Wade was good because it was evil and wrong and illegal. But so.
- [64:14]
B
Well, it's an old wine. New wineskins. I mean, for the last 50 years, we're used to fighting abortion in a facility. And so we need to shut down these clinics. Now. The number is 70% of the abortions that are taking place are being taken place at home, and the only abortionist is the mother. So it doesn't work anymore. Just tactically, if you're wanting to save babies and you're actually wanting to change culture, it doesn't work just by prosecuting doctors. You need to prosecute everyone involved. And so if I make it illegal. Back to the coercion thing. Guess what? It's illegal to put social pressure on you to commit homicide. That makes you a co conspirator. And actually, in our laws, it would make you as the principal offender in this and would absolve the woman in that case. So if you really want to protect women from coercion, stop making the underlying act of killing a child legal for her to do it. And it's not about punishing women. Like, no one in their right mind would say, oh, you want to make it illegal for women to drown their toddler in a bathtub? You want to punish women? You want to prosecute mothers? No one would say that. No, we want to protect babies. And the only way.
- [65:31]
A
Really dumb, dumb claim you're trying to punish. Hold on, wait. There's like, why are you dividing the law into male versus female in the first place? It's only because you want special treatment for certain people. This is why they came up with. This is controversial. I'm sure hate crime laws was to create special treatment. I'm like, if you stab me to death, that's a hate crime automatically. Why are we asking what race we are or what motivation it was if it was motivated? Because I just despise you personally. That's less of a hate crime than if I did it because of your race. This makes no sense to me. So these categories all are. They're critical theory. It's putting people into special classes that get extra rights and less accountability. And it shouldn't happen. It shouldn't happen for white people or rich people or women or men or anybody that's what biblical justice is. This is the whole concept of justice is justice is blind. But then you're trying to punish women. This is pulling the blind off justice and going, wait, is it a woman? I have different standards.
- [66:34]
B
And you know what you mentioned Bergefell, I think that's a great example in terms of what we're talking about culturally they did incremental steps along the way. But do you know that when a burger pill passed, America was polled on how many people supported gay marriage. Did you know that at the time that 70, at least 70 some polls showed 80% Americans were against gay marriage when that went down. Now it's not even been 10 years later, Mike. And there is hardly a single GOP elected official that would have the courage to say that gay marriage in Obergefell should be overturned. So when you say, I mean I'm all for this statement that Andrew Breitbart made that politics is downstream of culture, but like hold on, the other thing is also true that our laws, as we know the law is a tutor to lead us to Christ. Right? The laws actually fundamentally say something about the value and dignity of human beings. And if our laws create a two tiered system of justice where there are second class victims, where even the pro life movement is saying you can kill all human beings except for these human beings that are killed by these certain people. And if they are, then they're completely absolved. What you do is create a milieu by women in America now are from the time in their infancy grow up thinking inculcated by this cultural ethos or spirit of the age that says preborn children are nothing other than pieces of trash and you have the full ability as a victim to get rid of them, provided that you do it with a pill at home.
- [68:31]
A
They have totally subjective value. If the mom values them, they're valuable, if she doesn't, they're not. And then she can yell about reproductive rights and other dumb empty headed slogans that if you actually stop and think about them. So this is the thing, the number one move for pro choice is it's like an emperor has no clothes thing. They don't call it what it is, don't acknowledge what it is, try to get everyone to not talk about what it is. They'll even in print, in fact below this video on YouTube I guarantee you there will show up, if it's not there already, like a little thing about abortion about and it'll talk about a baby and it'll use the word like pregnancy, ending a pregnancy and removing a pregnancy. And you're like, you're not removing a pregnancy. That's not how language works. You're killing a kid. A human child. And I like to use the word baby and child and kid because you know what if someone was in a car accident and they lost, they had a miscarriage and they're like say three months pregnant. And if, then they went to the person who, say, a drunk driver who caused a car accident and they said, you killed my kid, would anybody be like, technically, that's not your kid. Technically, all of a sudden they know exactly what this is. No one's gonna argue with them. No one's gonna even. They're gonna be like, you're right, that person did that. So evil. But it's a baby if you want it to be the same lady takes a pill or gets a procedure to kill. Now it's. Well, I want to use a Latin word to describe it because then it seems less human. So how do we not even, not.
- [70:08]
B
Even at UCLA Medical center, when I worked in the ER there would, would. If a woman came in pregnant, they would always call it a baby. No one would ever dare to have the audacity to carte blanche, call their baby a fetus. Because they all understood something fundamental. That you are pregnant with your child unless you don't want it. And then we use some other dehumanizing euphemism.
- [70:29]
A
It's evil. It's, it's so evil, it's pulling the blinders down to. So what do you think about like march? Okay, obviously you guys have White Rose resistance. People could support your guys work. They could go to your website, which is, which is, is it whiterose resistance.com? what is it?
- [70:45]
B
No, it's thewhite rose dot life. Thewhite rose dot life.
- [70:49]
A
TheWhite Rose Life. You guys can check that out. But, but other than like financial support, marching orders for Christians, like locally, what, what steps do you think people can take? Maybe someone's going, dude, I'm willing to. I want to get involved in a cause. This is a cause I care about.
- [71:04]
B
Yeah.
- [71:05]
A
What do they do practically? What do they do tomorrow morning? You know, how can they make a difference?
- [71:09]
B
You're talking to the right guy. So I, I run all of the outreach for White Rose nationally. We have six state chapters across America right now. We are, we have tons of, of resistance units. So we have chapters and units. Units are the volunteer led ones. Chapters have full time dedicated chapter leaders for that state that all they do is just Dedicate full time work to that, to that movement. So I would say email me AJ thewhiterose Life ccmerick M A R E K at the Whiterose Life I believe that the church needs to do three things. We need to inform, engage and enrage. So if you permit me, I'll just give you, give you down the, the list of things, right? Inform is like the woman at the well meets Jesus, doesn't go back to her town and even preach some lofty sermon. She's just asking questions, hey, come meet a man that told me everything I ever did. Could this be the Messiah? Right? We need those type of people that are just, you know, geared more to towards that. So inform. We need the people that can engage. So we need to go into the highways and byways like Paul at the areopagus, contending for the faith, you know, debating those about the value of preborn children. And then we need to do be the kind of John the Baptist. So the third category is enraged. We need to break up the status quo. You know, we do tons of things like pro life rallies and we'll go to college campuses and we'll do demonstrations. We'll even, I mean I've, and I've even like crashed Planned Parenthood fundraising galas and stuff like this. We need to break up the status quo and shake up the establishment. So all those three things is what the White Rose resistance is about. We have a mercy component where we save babies outside of the front of the abortion clinics. And then we have the justice component which is both cultural and political. We have a C4 whereby we're getting these equal protection bills passed in states where we can. So all of that, I mean it, all politics now is local, right? We are getting killed at the ballot initiative. Roe v. Wade had obvious great things about it. But the downside is we have, we kind of underprepared Right now the battle is by and large at the state level. And states can either enshrine the right to abortion in their state constitutions or they can completely get rid it altogether. So now more than ever is the time where Christians have to be adamantly, just like zealous for their time and their energy at the local level of getting engaged in their local community. We have every ability, every single type of privilege right now in full, all of the, all of the like rubber bands or the stop guards have been taken off now that Roe v. Wade is done and we can, we can end abortion. And the question is, is will the church rise up? What I like to say is, you know, and why I'm out here at the White Rose resistance is because Jesus promised one thing he did not promise that the gates of hell would be prevailed against by the gop, the Republican Party, or exist organization. He said, I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. So I believe this secret to ending this is Christians owning their calling with the force of the gospel, going out and preaching the good news and the values and dignity of the preborn child.
- [74:54]
A
All right, man, look, I think that's a good place to wind it up. I think that's awesome. I'll warn you ahead of time, A.J. i'm gonna. When I click in, it's going to cut, but not only the lie, but it's going to kill our conversation. So this is me, genuinely.
- [75:06]
B
Thank you for the opportunity, Mike.
- [75:08]
A
Really, thank you for sticking your neck out. Thank you for the things that you've suffered. I appreciate that you're looking at this as not like, oh, look at me, I'm a great hero. I've done. But rather, hey, Christians, I think we're all called to take some risks and to be ready to make some sacrifices in order to do these things. In my mind, the issue of abortion is the great moral issue of our time.
- [75:30]
B
Amen.
- [75:30]
A
And has been for generations. But we have not seen the church. You know, Christians stand up like they could. Like they can now, like more than ever before. It's harder to silence us than ever before.
- [75:44]
B
Amen.
- [75:44]
A
It is harder than ever to silence us. And so us raising our voices thoughtfully, intelligently. But we need to restore the shame of abortion to our culture where they need to be ashamed. We need to not be embarrassed about that. Well, you're trying to make me feel bad. Yes, you should feel bad. Way worse than even you think I'm trying to make you feel. Now, you can find grace in Christ for that. But I can't go on for 20 minutes about the grace of Christ and not actually give you the thing that shows you you need it by saying, you did this to your child, you helped kill your own child. You vote for people because you say things like, it's complicated. Abortion's complicated. And then you vote for your pro choice candidates and you turn a blind eye to what's happening because you. You've absorbed the propaganda. So I think what you guys are doing helps to restore that awareness. This is biblical Christianity. It really does. Jesus did this in his ministry. He restored shame in regards to some of the ungodly practices that were happening in the temple or were happening with different people. John the Baptist did this and he's, you know, Jesus says woe to you. He straight up just says, like, would it be okay for a Christian to go to abortion clinic and just literally stand there and just say, woe to you, woe to you. You guys are killing children and you'll stand before the living God who made them in his image one day.
- [76:59]
B
Amen.
- [77:01]
A
I think that those things are appropriate too. We have let's grace you, let's help you. Let's give you help not only with abortion, but to stop from having an abortion and delivering a child, but also afterwards. We'll provide all kinds of aid and help for women after the child's born. Despite what the pro choicers claim about us, we do it all the time, but we also need to do the other stuff too. So I'm glad you guys are doing it and I thank you so much for joining and for sharing your story. I hope that more Christians get in trouble for standing against abortion in the near future. Yeah.
- [77:31]
B
Praise God. Thank you, brother.
- [77:33]
A
Yeah, thank you too, man. Appreciate you very much. So White Rose.
- [77:37]
B
White rose resistance. Www.thewhiterose.life.
- [77:45]
A
There it is. Okay. Life. That's what I was.