Mike Winger (2:24)

Now we're getting to it. Okay, you can see on the chair next to him is Steven Furtick. This was a few years back. He's just grinning me. He just seems to be just really enjoying this. Say this to me again.

Pastor AT (2:37)

Wait a minute.

Supporting Speaker / MC (2:37)

That's brilliant.

Mike Winger (2:39)

So when are you going to fire somebody?

Pastor AT (2:41)

Disloyal. Disloyal, Disloyal. It may be somebody. You sit in a conversation and I'm always listening. So somebody. And especially when people's guards are down. So I'll do a lot of fun things with my staff and I will listen.

Mike Winger (2:56)

Imagine if this dude was your boss and he's like, he's like, hey, let's go do something fun together. And he's just listening to everything you say. He's waiting for a word out of line. This would be such an oppressive human being to be around. Oppressive. Let's be real to anybody who's around him. He's, he's, he's admitting it. He's, he's saying what he does. He likes to lay traps for people,

Pastor AT (3:19)

let their guard down. So when we have advance, like we don't call a retreat, we go forward. So when we do a leadership advance.

Mike Winger (3:25)

Brilliant.

Pastor AT (3:26)

We, we will work till late. And I will keep them there specifically till late 12 o' clock at night and then just let them talk.

Mike Winger (3:35)

This is evil and manipulative behaviors. He gets his staff, he pushes them so that they're tired, so that they're worked late and their guard is down, their inhibitions are down more. And he waits to find out what he can catch them in and then fire them. This is like a terrorist pastor.

Pastor AT (3:54)

And I'm listening. One thing out of place, one thing in a conversation out of place. I know exactly where the person is. So when we see any form of disloyalty, betrayal.

Mike Winger (4:07)

I looked up the guy's name on stage. He's known, people know him. I forget it right now, but he turns and goes, brilliant. This is why I wanted to do a video on this. This is seen as advice for other leaders. Other leaders take this advice and it turns them into monsters. They come into ministry thinking, I'm going to serve Jesus. And ten years later they're going, loyalty, loyalty, loyalty. And they're tyrants. And they're suspicious of their most God loving, loyal to Jesus individuals in their ministry. They're suspicious of them because ultimately what you have when you have this kind of thing is cover up culture. And you get. And I'm going to get into scripture here on this. We're going to talk about some specific passages that refute what he's saying. And that's where the Real power is. But what you get is you get these leaders who all cover for each other because they all want the same unquestioned loyalty where it's impossible for them to be punished, it's impossible for them to be held accountable, and it's impossible for them to be dealt with. Right? If they go off the rails, so be it. You quit, I'm going to keep going. Which is what Todd White has done and others as well. So kind of a big deal actually, what he's doing here, training pastors in an anti Jesus ungodly thing. As they clap and laugh and as the MC here who's acting like a putz says, brilliant, they out.

Pastor AT (5:27)

Another thing is if they don't accept my wife, if they any, any, any person that has anything to say about my wife on staff, my wife and my children, it's not a negotiation. They out as quickly as yesterday and they clap.

Mike Winger (5:45)

It's possible. Look, look, for pastors wives, they get treated weird by people. That is true, okay? That is absolutely true. They get treated strangely by people. They're often not treated like a normal human being. And that's not cool, okay? That creates social difficulties for them. It makes it hard for them to have just genuine friendships and things like this. And yeah, I don't like that. That especially happens if the pastor puts himself up on a pedestal in front of the church, which people will put you on a pedestal. It's not your fault. But if you put yourself on one or if you allow yourself to remain there and you don't do things to try to climb down, then they will treat your wife in a weird way too. And so then it can create this weird thing where your ego has made her alienated from the congregation. Okay, that happens. That's a reality. But it's also true that there are some pastors, wives and pastors, kids who plague the church and they're like Eli's sons, right? And they cause all kinds of harm and difficulty and they meddle and they feel arrogant and they mess with people. And for them to be uncorrectable, for it to be the case where if she does something wrong, you go to talk to AT and you say, hey, pastor, at. Your wife did this thing and I think it was wrong. And scripture says I should confront, oh, I'm, oh, I'm fired. Oh, I'm taking my stuff and I'm leaving now. And he's like, loyalty, okay, that's twisted. And they clap as other leaders are gathering this information and they're going to go and Tell their congregations this and tell their staff this, and it's just gonna cause fallout.

Pastor AT (7:17)

Thank you.

Mike Winger (7:18)

The next time I need to fire someone, could I call you? And maybe you.

Pastor AT (7:24)

You're more than welcome. I know, because we love you. And I've got your back, as you have my back.

Mike Winger (7:29)

I've got your back, and you've got my back. He does not have the back of his staff. He doesn't have the back of his congregation. He's got this other leader's back who's not even part of his church because they're in the same. They're the same. Right? Like we are the untouchable ones. We're the elite caste. He's got his wife's back. He's got his kids back. He's got his own back, primarily. And everybody else is disposable.

Pastor AT (7:51)

And I don't. I actually. I actually believe every leader should be surrounded by fiercely loyal men and women that defend them with their own lives. I believe it with all my heart.

Mike Winger (8:03)

Yes. You're wrong at. You're wrong. What he just said is one of the most arrogant things. Think about this. He goes, every leader should be. But let's be real. He's speaking primarily about himself. I should be surrounded by people who are fiercely loyal, who will never say a word, no matter what. Not a single word about my wife, about my kids, who would never even hint that they are less than totally loyal to me, or else I fire them. I will wear them out and make them tired, to test them and see if they say something off, and then they're gone. And I think that they should be willing to lay their lives down for me. Right. I will drop them in a second if I suspect that they're not fully loyal in the way I want. But I want them to die for me. They have to die for me. This is a narcissistic, abusive theology of ministry that's being taught to crowds of people. And it's wrong, because for the Church

Pastor AT (8:57)

of Jesus to stay strong, the leader has to be protected. And. And, you know, in a ministry like this, I just want to say this. In big platforms like our platform, we have to employ people. And sometimes people come and it's not. They call to the man. They are called to the vision.

Mike Winger (9:14)

Okay, he's going to talk about this. Like, are you called to the man or call to the vision thing. I'm going to go to the scripture after I finish playing this video. The way I have it set up right now, it would reset the whole video if I went to the scripture at the second, so I'm going to have several verses I want to do in response to the things he's saying. But keep in mind this distinction. Are you called to the man or are you called to the vision? Because AT wants to make sure you're called to the man. Don't act like it's about the bigger kingdom of God. You have to be called to me. Don't act like it's about the mission that Christ has put us all on collectively. You are called to me personally. He's a tyrant. He's telling you he's a tyrant. I don't need to talk to 100 witnesses to figure this out. He's telling you he's a tyrant and he's proud of it and he thinks you should be too.

Pastor AT (9:55)

I tell people you call to the man and then to the plan. You call to the man and then the vision. So if you cannot idle leader.

Mike Winger (10:01)

Want that putz nodding his head. I think that's an appropriate use of the word putz here, guys. I know, I know. I'm gonna get comments. Mike, that was inappropriate and ungodly that you did name calling there. I mean, Jesus called people whitewashed sepulchers. That was an appropriate name calling. That was. I think putz is entirely appropriate in this case. Cold to the man.

Pastor AT (10:21)

I'm saying a lot. I'll finish now.

Mike Winger (10:23)

No, keep going.

Pastor AT (10:23)

You can't. I had a guy that did it.

Mike Winger (10:26)

He loves it because he knows that his own people are hearing this right? Because he's like, yeah, tell him. Tell my people that they have to be fiercely loyal to me no matter what. Right. Lay their lives down for me. But I can fire them. I don't lay my life down for anybody. They all lay their lives down for me. It's the opposite of Jesus leadership, a

Pastor AT (10:43)

meeting in my place. And his opening statement was, well, okay, you might.

Mike Winger (10:47)

I interrupted that awkward moment. I'm gonna back up a second so you can hear about this. Leadership meeting. Blows my mind. He's bragging about this.

Pastor AT (10:55)

I had a guy that did a leadership meeting in my place, and his opening statement was, well, praise the Lord. We are here for Jesus. We are not yet to serve a man. That was the last meeting he had. The last meeting he was out on his bicycle. I got rid of him.

Mike Winger (11:11)

I understand.

Pastor AT (11:11)

Because he has the reality.

Mike Winger (11:13)

I understand. Yes, yes. You should all be fired. These two guys should be fired. This is a no brainer, guys. This doesn't take a mountain of discernment to see this. They're wicked men. Here's a man who his heart was for the kingdom, and he comes because he gets involved in a ministry, most likely. Let me just guess here. Guesswork. Because he sees what's said on stage. He hears all of the pomp about what they're doing and how they're serving God. And he's sincere in his walk with the Lord and his desire to serve. And he gets up and maybe he can sense. I feel a conflict in my own heart. I know I want to come alongside Pastor AT and these other guys. I just want to make sure I'm serving Jesus first, that my loyalty is first to Christ. So he says it out loud and he goes, we're here to serve Jesus, not any man. And AT does the best thing to reveal to that man that there was no way that was ever going to happen in his ministry. He fires him and sends him away on a bicycle, according to his claim. That was a godly move for that man to speak up and say that. And it was very revealing. Very revealing that Pastor AT sees people who seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness as opposed to Pastor AT and his agenda, that those people are a threat to him and not ultimately serving the same mission.

Pastor AT (12:34)

You can go serve the Lord under the tree, but if you come in the house, you under the authority of the house, and you under the man of God. That's right. And you honor the man of God. You serve the man of God.

Mike Winger (12:45)

Man of God syndrome. You hear this. What's not taught here, what's not explained here, but what is assumed is that AT is the man of God singular. Like, it's not what scripture says, that every single one of us, we're a kingdom of priests, that we all have this incredible value in Christ. There is elitism, which every time there's Christian elitism, they rob whatever they say about themselves, they rob it from you, they rob it from the congregation. So he takes from them their high status as kings and priests to God in Christ, and he calls himself the man of God. That's ungodly. That's unbiblical. I could go to Acts 2. We could talk about Pentecost and how it's poured out on every believer. We could talk about adoption, how we're all sons in Christ and stuff. This is every bit of elitism that leaders take from congregants or that leaders have. Excuse me. Every bit of elitism that leaders have, they take from congregants. So they diminish you that they might Exalt themselves. And that's what he's doing.

Pastor AT (13:41)

And if you cannot serve the one that you see, you cannot serve the one Jesus whom you cannot serve.

Mike Winger (13:47)

Okay, if you can't serve. This is a twisting of Jesus, right? Of first John, right? If you don't love the one you see, then you can't love the one you don't see. Speaking of humans, he has no love for his fellow humans here. Love for himself. It's just such a twisting of scripture. Total narcissism. We're going to go to some specific passages, but first I want to point out one thing. Pastor at says if you say a word against his wife, you're gone. He secretly divorced his wife, according to Protestia. This just came out a couple days ago. Secretly divorced his wife, didn't tell the church was still getting like, anniversary, you know, congratulations, happy anniversary, messages from people, and has not yet gone public about it. I sent him a message on Instagram and asked him about this, but as far as I know, he has not replied. That's Pastor at. We're going to go through scripture, and then I'm going to show you a video to prove that all the stuff I just said is true on him, because I'm going to show him threatening his congregation, threatening people online, threatening everybody with lawsuits. And it's like a. The roid rage moment of preaching. It's weird. It's weird. And the idea that his staff didn't walk out or that his board didn't sit him down after any of this stuff, it shows that there's, like, a systemic problem going on in that ministry. It's just, this is reality. You got to call it for what it is. So at least learn from it and don't do it. But let's look at some passages of scripture. All right, the first one, we're going to look at Matthew 20:25, 28. This passage. Compare it to what Pastor at Just said. And here we go. Jesus Sundays in Matthew 20:24 or 25 rather. But Jesus called them to him and said, you know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. That is a standard, like caste system, type of leadership. I am the one who's far above you, and the basic nature of our relationship is I'm in charge. That's all there is. And he says, it shall not be so among you, but whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be your slave. Even as the Son of man came not to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many. AT just described the exact opposite of this. Right. He describes, my staff is there to serve me, and they should lay their lives down for me. And any threat to him, they are cut off. No matter how it might damage their finances or hurt their lives, they're gone. Any statement about them seeking God's kingdom and it not being about following a man, they're gone. It's the exact polar opposite of the words of Jesus. We have examples in Scripture that show that AT's idea of leadership is not biblical. Let me give you 1 Galatians 2, 11. This is where Paul and Peter had a confrontation moment. Not a loyalty moment. Not at how he leaned over and told the guy, or I guess he was leaning back and he told the guy who was sitting there next to him, he was leaning over, I've got your back and you've got mine. That's his attitude. That certainly wasn't Paul's attitude. Let's look at it. But when Cephas, that's Peter, just another name for Peter, came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face because he stood to be condemned. He stood condemned. He opposed him to his face because he stood condemned. Openly he does this, he says, for before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles. But when they came, he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party and the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the Gospel, I said to Cephas, I've got your back and you've got mine, and anyone who's disloyal should go ride his bike home and get fired. No, wait, no, that wasn't what he said. He said, if you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews? And he confronts them on a theological error, and he does it where before them all. He just does it out in the open. He doesn't even pull him aside. Hey, Steve, can we talk about what happened the other day? He does it right there in the open because those people are being harmed. Those people are being injured, right? They're being harmed by the actions of Peter. Even though he hasn't said anything, it's the implications of his actions. So he could easily be like I didn't mean for it to come off that way, but what mattered is it came off that way. And so he goes on and talks about this more. But what we have with this Galatians passage is the idea that leaders, even confronting other leaders, because we're called to the mission more than we are to the man. That's why. Because the gospel and the mission we're on in Christ, the kingdom of God and the man, Jesus Christ. That is my primary calling. It is not senior pastor. It is not local ministry leader. It is not anybody else. It's not Mike Winger. We're all serving subserviently and we're all open to correction. And we have to be. We absolutely have to be. Look at John 10:11. This is another one where it's just so clear that what AT is talking about and teaching other pastors to do is evil. Jesus says, I'm the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he's a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. Now, the wolf analogy here, like, I don't know how to parallel this to seeing a wolf coming and fleeing. I don't think that's the case. However, there's a. Get the principle here. The difference between the good shepherd and the hired hand is that one of them is willing to suffer and do so to protect and take care of the sheep, and the other is not. He values his own safety and protection more than that of the sheep. That's exactly what AT just described. He cares nothing for this staff, the sheep. He cares for his glory, it seems. Cares for the growth of his ministry. And some of these guys, they can be incredibly effective because when you look at people and all you see is the value they are to the growth of your movement, and you calculate, and that's all you see is everybody's. It's utilitarian. Utilitarian ministry. Will this person help me get further along? Great, I'll use them. Oh, it's not working out. You're gone. Who's next? Who's next? Who's next? And you can really accomplish a lot, but you leave a trail, blood in your wake. And that's what AT seems to be describing, that style of ministry. Then there's 1 Timothy 5, 20. More scripture, more scripture. That's what we all need, verse. I've been Using a lot recently because it is so relevant. It talks about elders who are persisting in sin and it says to rebuke them in the presence of all. Okay, I'm not just going to reteach the same thing. I want to highlight something here. Those of you who know I've used this verse a lot recently. Here's something. For this to be possible in the local church or in big old megachurches, or in giant super megachurch. 120,090 facility congregation type things for this to be possible for you to be capable of rebuking elders in the presence of all people means that you cannot possibly have the kind of loyalty that AT describes and demands from his people. That is, he's creating a system and encouraging others to do so which directly violates commands of scripture. That's a big deal. Your pastor must be vulnerable. Your pastor must be subject to review. Your pastor, your lead pastor, your senior pastor. Even if you're in a Moses model church, your senior pastor has to have a weakness in his ability to control others to the point where they could actually confront, expose him in the presence of all and even pull him down if need be. And it has to be like a real thing that can actually happen if the scripture is to mean anything to us. And so I think that's important. Another one's Matthew 18, which talks about confronting people and even telling it to the church. AT has a philosophy of ministry where that would apply to everyone except him. He confronts others, but they cannot confront him. Loyalty, loyalty, loyalty. You can't say a word about my wife. You can't say a word about my kids. But your kid did this really horrible thing and in youth ministries the other day, you're fired. It's so evil, man. It's so wicked. There are actual elder requirements. He's like, what would you, you know, what would you fire people for? Here's what. Here's what you fire people for, guys. Right here. The text of scripture gives it to us. If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task, therefore an overseer. This would apply to pastors, elders, overseers, they're all synonymous terms in modern English. And if you're going to interpret scripture correctly, I believe, therefore, an overseer must be above reproach. The husband of one wife, sober minded, self controlled, supposed to be faithful in marriage. So AT divorced his wife. That's what the reporting said. So, sure, there's more to the story there, but that's a potentially. He's potentially disqualified and should Be fired himself. He should be fired anyways just for being an ungodly anti Jesus pastor. Sober minded, self controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity, keeping his children submissive. For someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? He can't be a recent convert or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil. So he's got to have a good reputation. Even among those who are non Christians. There are some qualifications. Violate those you should consider. There's no loyalty. Where was loyalty on that list? Loyalty to. It's not on the list, but it's worse. So this is threatening people. This is. I'm gonna call this the roid rage sermon, because I think it's funny. All right, you guys can't take a joke. Most of you can take a joke. But the ones who can't take a joke, you all know how to use the comments, though, that's also a joke. Okay, so this guy gives this message where. And this is all protesti. Pulled this stuff out, which I'm glad they did, where he talks about how he can sue you if you even like a comment about him that. That he doesn't approve of.

Supporting Speaker / MC (24:18)

Okay, just liking a hateful comment. You can be sued. You know, back in the day, if you said something about somebody, you had to man up. There was no law to protect you. You opened your mouth wide. That person had all the right in the world to walk up to you and smack all your teeth out of your mouth.

Mike Winger (24:41)

It's like, you can tell. He's like, I really want to punch all these people so bad. You know, I've been working out hard. I'm ready to do it. I want to just punch him in the face. It reminds me of the Benny Hinn video where Benny Hinn said he wished he had a holy ghost machine gun and that he could just mow down his opponents. And I think at the time it would have been maybe Hank HaneGraaff and John MacArthur. He probably would have been primarily thinking of this is back in the day, how he wishes he could just murder them. I take him at his word. I think he's being honest in this case. I think that he's reminiscing about, what a bummer that I can't just go and beat these people up. He acts like it would be legal to do that. If someone says you're a false teacher and then you knock their teeth out, that the court would be like, well, you know, he. He has the right to do that.

Supporting Speaker / MC (25:32)

And you could not go to the police station. You had to man up for the words you say. Now you hide behind your computer and you think you can just mouth off anything.

Mike Winger (25:43)

I just want to point out what he's about to do is hide behind lawyers and hide behind threats and hide behind his microphone and his stage because

Supporting Speaker / MC (25:53)

nobody can come smack you. Well, we'll deal with your smack talk. I have to fight this on behalf of every pastor. I will. But the church will have dignity again.

Mike Winger (26:04)

This is something I've seen egotistical pastors do. Okay, just going to call it. They act like whatever they're personally going through is about the entire church. Right. This is when Todd White, he's like, I grew my hair so that God could break the religious spirit off the whole church globally. And then you've got, oh, I cut my hair because I want to be known for my love, not my hair. God wants us to be known for our love, not the way we look. God isn't looking outward and he's like, everything's a big thing that he's doing for the whole world when it's just about you personally. And that's the same thing here. My read on this is that AT is angry because he can't control social media. He has a ton of control in his church. Hyper control. Clearly. He's got hyper control. He could walk into the room, he could yell at you. He could probably cuss you out to your face with all the staff hearing and then walk away. And nobody would ever say a word to him about it because he has that, I'm guessing, for good reason, that much control. And then he goes and sees people online going, that dude's whack. He cannot handle it. He cannot handle it. So here, he's going to restore dignity through the church and he's going to fight for every single pastor, but it's most likely just about him.

Supporting Speaker / MC (27:17)

And pastors will be revered again and we will put dignity back on the church of our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen. Listen to me. Tonight, I can't go around and call you a false lawyer or a false property agent.

Mike Winger (27:32)

You can't actually do that.

Supporting Speaker / MC (27:38)

Just liking a hateful comment. You can be sued. Better get in tune with the laws of defamation.

Mike Winger (27:51)

So at laws of defamation, you're okay? I don't know if South Africa has some really different laws of defamation than the ones I'm familiar with in the US but you're a well known figure. People can talk about you, they can make observations about you. They could say things like, he looks like a really bad guy. And you can't sue them for saying that. That's good luck with that. But this isn't about lawsuits, guys. This is about threats. I don't think he's representing South African law when he talks about defamation. I think he's just threatening his congregation. This is about controlling thought and controlling people's ability to speak and think in his congregation. And if you look at it that way, you're like, dude, what would it be like to be under this guy's leadership? Well, you would get really good positive moments and him doing really nice and great things for you, and he would get really extreme mean moments. And it would just kind of oscillate

Supporting Speaker / MC (28:49)

between the two and the laws of social media. Because I ain't taking that rubbish no longer. Because you're influencing the weak thinking. We can call CRC a cult,

Mike Winger (29:09)

call

Supporting Speaker / MC (29:09)

a man of God a false prophet.

Mike Winger (29:11)

I mean, I don't know if he's prophesied falsely. So if you have, then good luck suing people over that. I don't know if he has actually prophesied falsely or not. He seems to have the prosperity preaching going on. Definitely his teaching on leadership is unbiblical and anti Christian, that's for sure. And what he's doing here is abusive and wrong. Yeah, obviously. Sue me if you want to. You're probably calling a lawyer right now.

Supporting Speaker / MC (29:37)

That would be as good as me going and saying, you're a false attorney. You're a thief. You have no right. The Constitution protects me as much as it does you. The law protects me as much as it does you.

Mike Winger (29:51)

Again, this is really just about him. He's like using his pulpit. This is like someone needs to start a YouTube channel called Pulpit Crimes. Okay, here's what you do. Pulpit Crimes. And you just show clips of when these rogue egotistical leaders go off the rails and use their pulpit to bash and slander people who have very little defense against it in that community. Yeah, there you go. Pulpit Crimes. How's that?

Supporting Speaker / MC (30:18)

So you better choose your words very carefully. Listen to me, listen to me. I'm not 30 years old. Maybe your, your, your, your arrogance will cost you your university car.

Mike Winger (30:31)

Who's gonna sue You. He's like, I'm, I'm gonna sue you. It just gets worse. As he goes, he'll talk about how he's got lawyers ready and waiting. They're gonna do it for free. They're gonna sue people for free.

Supporting Speaker / MC (30:41)

Make the devil and his followers pay for the poor. Watch me. Make the devil and his haters pay for our feeding projects.

Mike Winger (30:52)

He's here talking about mostly suing Christians, you know, who calls people false prophets and false teachers and cults. Christians who care about theology. Right. They're not. An atheist isn't getting on here going, that guy's a false teacher. That's not the language they use. That's not what they do. He's talking about Christians. He's going to sue Christians. And he's going to justify by going, oh, we're going, we're going to give the money to the poor. We're going to make them pay for the poor. I'd like to know how much money you make at how much of that is going to the poor. I don't doubt some of it is, but even mafia gangsters would give money to the poor, right? That's part of how they would maintain like a community that would support them or otherwise fear them. One or the other is they do some good stuff with some of the money they got. So that that alone is not going to rescue the evil that he's doing here. Violation of scripture, right? Don't go to court before unbelievers. He's threatening exactly that.

Supporting Speaker / MC (31:51)

Those who attack the church will fund the feeding of the poor. Listen to me, listen to me.

Mike Winger (31:58)

It's hard to reason with anybody who's this self righteous that they think, follow the logic. Hey man, you got some teaching. Like you have prosperity teaching here. That's false theology and that brings harm to people. And he's like, oh, so you're Satan and I should sue you and I'm righteous to do it and we're going to feed the poor and it'll be a victory of the kingdom of God over the kingdom of Satan. And you're like, how do you reason with that

Supporting Speaker / MC (32:26)

very people? This devil oppressed? His followers will pay to remove their pain and their suffering. Yes. We have advocates and lawyers that are now operating, operating pro bono to give their time to defend the faith.

Mike Winger (32:47)

Has AT sued you? Is there somebody out there who spoke truth and at Please contact me, okay? Don't contact me if he hasn't. If it's a different situation, don't. I only want to know one thing. If this guy has actually taken you to court because you said something that you fully believe was true and you had a reason to think was true, and then he tried to sue you or sent you letters, I'd love to know that. I'd like to know that. Have accountability too. Just because you have money and influence and a microphone doesn't mean you have no accountability.

Supporting Speaker / MC (33:19)

It's not a game any longer. Too much at stake. Say Pastor, that doesn't sound Christ. Like, how about Jesus who made a whip and he beat some people out of the temple that was stopping people from coming to Jesus Christ? Let me tell you, if you go on social media and you rant and you rave and you push people away from God and you cause people to

Mike Winger (33:40)

backslide and you deceive people again, what is a critique of his ministry is seen as an attack and assault on the kingdom of God, causing people to backslide. That's silly. That's silly. But what it does is it makes. This is where, when Christianity is true, it's amazing and beautiful and good. But when you have religion that goes off base and starts using God as your justification for things, it is extra dangerous, it is extra harmful, it is increased in the harm that it may cause. If he was just the CEO of a company, he wouldn't be able to have the, the self righteous anger that he's got. He would just have anger, right? He would just have like, I care about me and you guys are talking about me and I'm going to attack you for it and I'm going to get revenge. But to do so in the name of Jesus, that's, that's next level, man. That you're the one dragging the name of Jesus through the mud. Absolutely.

Supporting Speaker / MC (34:35)

Then the whip of the law is coming your way. Thank you very much. Donkey. Don't do the soft Christianese thing with me. Say Pastor, pray for your enemy. I'll pray for them afterwards.

Mike Winger (34:52)

These guys don't care what scripture says. They care what they want and they find the scriptures to validate the things they want to do. That's what I think. That's what is being exhibited here. Don't tell me pray for my enemies. Right? Jesus says every word uttered against the Son of Man can be forgiven. He says this. I'm not going to pray for you, I'm going to sue you. This is obviously not the way Jesus handled things. Not the way Christians are called to handle things. What you're looking at here is a man with a very large, in my opinion, and this represents a Lot of pastors. And he creates more pastors like it. And I'll tell you why I want to share this. Another reason is because when you serve under someone like at, you become like them too. So he's the tyrant of his ministry, but then underneath him there'll be leaders who have their own ministries. And they don't all have to be tyrants, but the thing is that they will be drawn into it. It will be built into them because the way he interacts with them becomes the way they interact with their people that are beneath them and their people. And so you'll end up having this like sort of tiered system of tyrants. And it's like, oh, I get to be a tyrant over this group of people. Well, I get to be a tyrant over these three leaders and their people and. And, oh, I get to be the tyrant over all the leaders and all the groups and all the people. And it ends up being the thing where it's just a church that has unlimited horror stories. In the end, it's just what I've seen too much. I've seen too much. So I recognize what it is. Now. What I believe we're seeing here when a leader does this is the ego is so big that he can't handle criticism at all. And he successfully routed criticism out of his local church. But the online world you can't control. And so that criticism is really getting to him. And so this, hence the threats about liking comments and things like that.

Supporting Speaker / MC (36:45)

And you can't sue a brother. He's not a brother.

Mike Winger (36:51)

That moment right there, that's blasphemous, I believe. And here's why someone says, for me, I think this guy is a bad pastor. I think he's training people to be bad pastors. And he exhibits extreme abusive behavior to people in his congregation and online. He's threatening them and all this stuff, okay, I think it's the elitism, I think it's cover up culture. I think it's all that stuff. He would then declare I'm not saved so that he can then justify suing me. That's the logic that he's explaining here. I find this astounding. Astounding. Shame on you at. Shame on you.

Supporting Speaker / MC (37:28)

Bible says Mark a divisive man. Bible says Mark a divisive man.

Mike Winger (37:34)

At is a divisive man marked Mark him.

Supporting Speaker / MC (37:38)

Silence him. Get rid of him.

Mike Winger (37:41)

Where does it say silence him? That's not what the text says, is it? Let's look it up. Let's look it up. I've lost my ability to type. Let's find the passage where it says, mark a divisive man. Just a second here. And he says, silence him. I think it's actually really cold in my office right now. And my fingers are like numb. I didn't notice it, but this is making my typing sluggish. So Here is Titus 3:10. As for a person who stirs up division after warning him once and then twice. Have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful. He is condemned. He is self condemned. Does it say silence him? It says have nothing to do with him. This is the extreme behavior of Christians when they find other people who are naming Christ. At least maybe they're Christians, maybe they're not. But they're being really harmful to those around them. They're being extremely divisive. And there's good times to divide. And Jesus knew exactly when to divide and not divide. And he's a good example of that. But the divisive person who's just dividing and it's wrong. Yeah, you need to note them, you warn them, and then you have nothing to do with them. Where does it say you silence them? But that's actually what he's advocating. That's what AT is advocating, is silencing them. Let me. I'm afraid I may have lost my place. Let me make sure that it doesn't do that. Will it do that? Okay, click that off.

Supporting Speaker / MC (39:35)

Just liking a hateful comment.

Mike Winger (39:37)

No.

Supporting Speaker / MC (39:38)

You can be sued. Let me tell you, if you go on social media and you rant and you rave and you push people away from God in the faith, it's not a game any longer.

Mike Winger (39:49)

All right, we'll have to re. Watch a little bit of it because

Supporting Speaker / MC (39:50)

I want to find too much at stake. They passed. That doesn't sound Christ. Like, how about Jesus who made a whip and he beat some people out of the temple that was stopping people from coming to Jesus Christ. Christ.

Mike Winger (40:01)

Actually, that's the second time I want to point this out, that he has mentioned physical violence on people in a way that was approving. I would want to. I would. If I was doing an investigation into AT which I'm not going to do, by the way. So please. Sorry, guys. I got too many things on my plate already. I would like to know if you sued anybody, but I'm not going to do a whole investigation. But if I was, I would. I would ask has he been physically violent or has encouraged physical violence against people who he finds to be spiritual enemies that because it's two times. Two times he's done it already.

Supporting Speaker / MC (40:29)

Let me tell you, if you go on social media and you rant and you rave and you push people away from God and you cause people to backslide and you deceive people, then the whip of the law is coming your way. Thank you very much. Donkey, donkey. Don't do the soft Christianese thing with me. Say, pastor, pray for your enemy. I'll pray for them afterwards.

Mike Winger (40:54)

Speaking of which, is that soft Christian? Is that soft Christian used to pray for your enemies? Was Jesus soft on the cross when he said, father, forgive them, they don't know what they're doing? Was that soft? This is like the manosphere stuff. And we need men and we need manly men. That's what we're supposed to try to be. But what they do is they define manly differently. And manly comes out as self obsessed, egotistical, unteachable, super ambitious in ways that are not necessarily driven and directed at the kingdom of God, but are just ambitious.

Supporting Speaker / MC (41:39)

And you can't sue a brother. He's not a brother. Bible says Mark, a device of men. Bible says Mark, a divisive man. Mock him, silence him, get rid of him.

Mike Winger (41:52)

What does that mean, get rid of him?

Supporting Speaker / MC (41:56)

Paul used Roman law to defend himself. People beat up on him today. People beat up on you with their words. He said, I'm a Roman citizen. They backed off.

Mike Winger (42:11)

Well, there you go, Pastor at. The threat is actually more effective than the actual lawsuits themselves. Guys like this generally are doing lawsuits to control people, I think not to actually get money or to punish people because they. They've got enough in their reserves that they can just do frivolous lawsuits. And even if people lose, even if he loses in court, you know, he can still punish people successfully. And that's what it ended up being. That's the man of God syndrome, in my opinion. And I think this is a really good example of it from a few years ago. Totally unacceptable. So we're going to your guys questions from the live chat and I'm grateful for you guys joining today. My name is Mike Winger. My goal is to help people learn to think biblically about everything and to learn to not be afraid of guys like that. Of course, as part of it, but we'll go to your guys questions. Bertis. Hugo says my brother is in at church. Interesting. And wrote me off after I challenged at's teachings. He doesn't want to speak to me. It's terrible for the family. I don't feel like reconciling how do I handle this? Well, I mean, scripture tells us this. It says, like, if in as much as is possible, live peaceably with all men. So you can't actually fix the relationship because all relationships are two people and not just one. What you can do is you can say, in as much as is possible, am I doing what I can? And possible doesn't mean, like, ridiculousness, but, hey, am I doing everything I can to try to have a reconciliation? And sometimes that means confrontation. Sometimes what I would have to do is I have to confront, say, hey, what you did here was wrong, and I want to give you a chance to deal with it. And that can be part of as much as is possible to live peacefully with all people. It's not surprising that he cut you off. Imagine if you're under this kind of teaching and you believe that AT is a man of God and you actually think the things he's saying are wisdom and righteousness. You're clapping, applauding as the music swells. I can imagine being a musician on stage as he says these things, and you're playing and you're like, I need to get out of here. But. But, yeah, of course that teaching trickles down. And I told you, it creates other effects in people, like little tyrants. But it does this too, where anybody in your family who says something about the ministry, you can't just be like, hey, I disagree with you on this. You actually cut them off because your loyalty to this dude is obnoxiously high, and it's replacing that loyalty to Christ. So as much as is possible, which could include confrontation, based on your description, I would just approach him and say, it's wrong that you cut me off. I'm your brother. I love you. I want us to have relationship. All I did was criticize this guy, and that's entirely fair, and then send him my video. Maybe that'll help. So Magdan has a question. Says the only church in our town doesn't have a healthy leadership structure. The main. Oh, number three. The main pastor is the overlord. No council, no elders. He is proud and very arrogant. But the teaching is good. What do we do? Well, I don't know enough about your situation, but let me tell you what options I would consider if I was in your situation. So option one is, well, you go and you're like, I don't control these things. I know I'm supposed to be involved in fellowship, and the teaching here is good. I'm not going to endorse or just sit back and do absolutely Nothing. In circumstances where I feel like he's crossing lines and we have a responsibility to speak out. If that happens, you speak out, but you participate as much as you can. That's one option. Another option is you actively confront those issues and you say, hey, this is inappropriate. You confront them with the pastor, you confront them with others and you say this is inappropriate. And you give examples and you're very careful with your words and you do so in a way that is meant to be constructive and say, hey, I'd like to see these things addressed. That probably would turn south really quick. That is an option. Another option is that you attend the church, but you also engage in a home type fellowship, right? Where you have a gathering of believers where you're just getting together and you're sort of out from. It's not part of the church. This home fellowship thing you're doing, it's not part of it, but it's just a gathering of Christians that are there that may end up developing into its own church at some point that could be more biblically sound and solid. Doesn't mean you have to be the pastor of it, but that's another option as well. Or you just start your own fellowship again, you don't have to be the pastor to do this, but you could say, things are so toxic and so bad that I think we're actually better off doing our own thing. And you gather Christians around you and you start gathering on a regular basis and you seek. How does home church work? How can we do this in a godly way? And you beware, because tyranny will exist in tiny little home fellowships just as much as it can in big old megachurch environments. So something to be aware of. Those are a few thoughts for you. I think those are all possible options. I, for one, am slow to leave a church, slow to step out. I would have to have really good reason if I left the church. And if possible, you want to try to work within that is to me the better option if possible. But life doesn't always give you that option. And sometimes you have to think long term. And you think about, is it even safe for people to be in this environment? Is it good for the kids? Is it good for other people that I'm bringing as I evangelize and I'm bringing people and they get discipled now under this environment, is that healthy? Is it actually unwise for me to seek unity at the cost of the health of the body of Christ? And those are tough questions. All right, number four. Number four, from Clara Aziz, who says, what do you say to someone who says they know they're going to hell, but doesn't even want the way out? This is kind of the impervious person we sometimes in evangelism, I know, for me at least, would think there's always a response. I've always got to have a response. And sometimes those responses take the form of apologetics where they say, well, I think the Bible's been changed over time. And you think, ah, okay, why did you come to that conclusion? Or what do you mean by that? Changed over time? In what ways? Why do you think it has been changed over time? Have you seen any evidence that supports that idea? What sort of changes do you think are present? What do you think the Gospels originally said about Jesus compared to what they say now? Like, you could ask these kinds of. And you're like, ooh, I'm in the realm of apologetics. Or like, I feel more comfortable personally. Theology, apologetics. This is different than that, right? This is like, yeah, yeah, I think I'm going to hell. I don't care. That's an entirely different scenario. And how do you address it? Well, sometimes you. And here's. I'll give you the verse on this. Let me share it. Just a second.

Supporting Speaker / MC (49:11)

Hold on.

Mike Winger (49:12)

I want to find the exact passage. So Matthew 10:14, Jesus sends out his disciples. I'll back up a bit and we'll read a little section. He. He actually does multiple sendings. There's multiple times Jesus sends his disciples out into crowds. The final time, he sends them out into the whole world and he's sending all of them out. One time he sends out 70. In this case, he's just sending out 12. So these 12 Jesus sent out, instructing them go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Again, after Jesus resurrection, he's like, go into the whole world. This is specifically Israel related. And he says, go to them and proclaim as you go, saying, the kingdom of heaven is at hand. So step one with somebody, you proclaim the actual gospel. This is the reality. Jesus is the savior of the world. You really have sinned. You really need to have faith and trust in Christ, his death and resurrection, that you might be forgiven, that you can know God, that you can experience God, that you can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. You need to get to the gospel itself, the sin and the Savior and the response of faith. So he says, the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Tell them this and he empowers them. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You receive without paying, give without pay, so they're not to have their hands out like people owe them for these ministry things that they're doing. Acquire no gold or silver or copper for your belts, no bag for your journey, or two tunics or sandals or staff for the laborer deserves his food. So they weren't to be self provided for, but they weren't to ask for money. This I take side issue here as not a statement of how every missionary is supposed to go out. I will take nothing with me and I will not ask for payment for anything I do and will just watch God provide. That is not a standard plan for missions. That is not. What this is, is a singular moment where he sends out the 12 and he's using a specific plan for a very short term mission trip to teach them lessons about reliance upon God and about God's provision. Later he'll send them out and he'll say before I told you, don't get money for your belts, don't get extra stuff for your journey. God's gonna provide. And then later, right before the crucifixion, he's like, hey, I told you before, don't do this. Now I'm telling you, if you don't have a sword, go get one. You basically get ready and hunker down. Things are about to get rough and dangerous. And so I'm saying this is a temporary instruction. This is not a general instruction for missions. But he tells him this and he says, and here we'll get to where it answers your question, I think. And whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it and stay there until you depart. As you enter the house, greet it, and if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. And if anyone will not receive you, verse 14, very important, if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. Truly I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of Judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town. Because they're having like the apostles show up with signs and wonders and miracles and they're still rejecting. If you have somebody who's utterly rejecting and they know it's true, you can shake the dust off your feet and you can walk away and it is not your Responsibility. Now, I'm not saying you don't care that shaking the dust off your feet is not, I'm sick of you. This is how we often use the kind of picture in modern times. I'm sick of you. It's actually about responsibility, not about care or concern. It's, I'm not responsible for you. I'm shaking the dust off my feet because it's not clinging to me. Because I am not accountable for that decision you just made. I share with you, I preach to you. The only other things you can do, obviously you can pray for them, obviously you can seek to minister to them. You can even try to build relationship. But I've watched many Christians spend a thousand hours evangelizing someone who doesn't want it and doesn't care and never moves when they could have just said, okay, you're not interested, I'm moving on. And they could have evangelized a thousand people instead of one guy for a thousand hours. And so I think it's okay to shake the dust off your feet and move on. God respects their decisions. You can too. Now, getting text updates about Todd White from someone. I'll have to look at that afterwards. Number five, Salt light says, peace to you, Brother Mike. I'm a former military and have a desire to go back to an elite unit. However, I feel anxiety leaving my wife and daughter for periods of time. How do I reconcile this? Well, the anxiety may be justified as far as, like, the question of whether it's biblically permissible for you to leave at all. Can anybody be in the military where you're leaving for long periods of time because that's the job you have? I think the answer there is, yes, it can happen. There's an interesting law in the Old Testament. Maybe I can find it. It's about when you first get married. Ah, Deuteronomy 24. 5. Yeah. I do not have Deuteronomy memorized, so I'm grateful for being able to search it. Deuteronomy 24, verse 5. Put it on your screen. When a man is newly married, newly married, he shall not go out with the army or be liable for any other public duty. He shall be free at home for one year to be happy with his wife whom he has taken. What is the implication? It is, after a year he may have public duties he has to do. He might go out to fight in the army, but for this one year he doesn't. And so I would say, not that this is a law for all people for all time, but there's a principle behind it that I think can apply to your scenario, which is upon first getting married, you don't just bail, right? Spend that time, build your home, get things situated. And then if you do have this sort of the kind of job that pulls you away, then you get pulled away. But you are mindful of the impact it's going to have in that season of life on your family. And you can talk to them about it and ask them about it and say, what do you think about this? Have open conversations, give them permission to tell you. The other concern, though, just as any husband would have to ask, is, okay, maybe in principle, it's not wrong inherently for me to be gone for, like, maybe even a couple months or a few months at a time because I'm doing this work. That doesn't mean, though, that it's healthy in my marriage for my wife and my kids. And that's a question everyone, every guy would have to ask is like, how are they doing? Every dad, every father, every. Excuse me, Husband should be kind of like assessing their marriage and their. Their situation on a regular basis and just going, like, how's everything going? Are things going good? Are we handling things well? Are the needs being met? And you'll often find that things are not going good or not well in some areas, or needs are not being met, but it's healthy to make those assessments. So that's a decision I obviously can't make for you. In principle, the option seems to be possible. Yes, you work, and that's just the nature of your job. You're traveling. But it may or may not be good in your marriage, in your family, and that's a decision that you'd have to work on. Let's see, number six, by the way, I'll add one more scripture. The guy who doesn't take care of his own household. Worse than an unbeliever, it says. So that's the thing. Am I still really taking care of them, or am I looking at them and I'm going, this ain't working. This just ain't working. The way she is, the way I am, the way the kids are, it's just not working. Then you got to do something else, because they are a much bigger priority than your. They're a much bigger priority than your career, for sure. All right, number six, Kara, or Kara says, what are your thoughts on second Timothy 2, 24, 26, and how does it inform your soteriology? Thanks. So for those who don't know, soteriology is a fancy word for Your beliefs about how people get saved and what happens when they get saved. So it's the ology of soter or salvation theology. So salvation theology as opposed to like say trinitarian theology. Or you could have just general theology in a much larger sense. Soteriology. Let's look at this passage. 2 Timothy 2, 24, 26. I'll read these verses. And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome, but kind to everyone. Let me make sure I'm in the right one. Yeah. Must be quarrelsome. Must not be quarrelsome, but kind to everyone. Able to teach, patiently enduring evil, Correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth. That I think is what you're highlighting. And that they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil after being captured by him to do his will. So we are to do this is like a cause and effect. Okay. Or potentially cause and effect. Let's look at it this way. You're going to be this way towards these opponents. These are unsaved people you're dealing with specifically. Right. That they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil. Okay, let me back up here's questions on this passage. Are these people going from a state of not saved to saved? That's an important question. If it's they're caught, their snare of the devil could be referring to someone who's actually saved. Could be referring only to unsaved. If it's referring to both saved and unsaved, it's not really a soteriological claim as much. The next question would be, what is the cause and effect relationship of. I'm handling my opponents well and that that is somehow part of God leading them to repentance. God is granting them repentance. Now if there's a causal relationship to how I handle them and their repentance, then you would think that that leans away from like a Calvinist theology. If there's a causal relationship there, it's not just coincidental, Then you would think that that would lean away from Calvinist theology, which is just regeneration and then faith. It's like the only causal factors are God regenerates you and then you believe. But then there's this. What might I think a Calvinist friend of mine would highlight? God may perhaps grant them repentance. Oh, so repentance is something God grants them and he may do it and he may not do it. All that to say, I don't think this passage gives you enough information to have like a strong. My soteriology comes from this passage and is fully established by it. I think it could be interpreted in a couple ways and that what you would really need to do is continue to develop your understanding of soteriology with other passages. And what probably most people will do is they'll read this soteriology they already have into this passage. So God may perhaps grant repentance. I'm going to read Calvinism into that if I'm a Calvinist. If I'm not a Calvinist, I'll be like God. Granting people repentance doesn't mean God is causally regenerating them before faith, making them repent. He granted them repentance. He didn't force them to repent. I could argue that way, but the phrase itself doesn't, I don't think, force one interpretation or the other by itself. What we do know is this. This is how you should deal with people in general. You generally should be dealing with people like this. Now what is the exception? People like to say that Jesus's exception was to religious people. I don't think that that's fair that when he was harsh with people, when he wasn't kind, you might even think he was quarrelsome because he like picked fight sometimes with some of these guys. So when was he not this people like to say it was with religious people. I think that that's a misnomer. I think everybody was religious back then. Everybody wasn't religious people. It was leaders. I think that he picked fights with leaders because leaders have a stricter accountability. I myself am a leader. You do not need to be as gentle with me as you are with your neighbor, with the guy down the street, with the person you're preaching the gospel to, with correcting a person in your congregation. When you're dealing with a leader, the stakes are higher. The impact they have on other people is bigger. And so then, I don't know, it's just on my mind because I was doing this earlier, just now with at if wasn't in leadership, if he wasn't on a microphone, if he was just some guy in your church saying wild things, you pull him and say, hey man, let's talk about this. But when he's harming other people beneath him with these types of things, you have to level up. I think that's biblical. I think that's what Jesus did. Not your question. Just on my mind because I just did that and I thought this verse, people would be like hey, Mike, how does that apply to what you just did? That seemed like a useful thing to do. So sorry if that feels like a disappointing answer. But I do think most people will just read their soteriology into this passage more than they will get it from it. There are other passages that are more clear. I would say that number seven, Beulah land. Sorry, I do not know what you're saying. How do we reconcile Jesus being called Everlasting father in Isaiah 9, 6? Thanks, Mike. Oh, you're all very welcome. I actually have a thing on this, and I don't have it all in my head right now. Just human limitations. There's a whole thing on this. Maybe I'll do it around Christmas time, you know, because then people are gonna be singing those songs. Everlasting Father. There. There's a whole thing on this. I will. I'll try to do it this year before Christmas. I know, guys, that sounds like forever away, but that's just my life. But the passage in question here, I can give you kind of a summary. I'm trying to remember the details. There's some research I did on this. I just don't have it in my brain. Okay, so for to us a child is born. This is a famous passage which is applied to Jesus as prophetically being about the Messiah. So for to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder. I love that. A child is born and a son is given. For God gave his only son to the world, and the government shall be upon his shoulder again. He will. He's the King of Kings, right? And his name shall be called. And there's a bunch of things. His name is called Wonderful Counselor. Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. And then it goes on prophetically, the increase in government and peace. There'll be no end. On the throne of David he'll sit. This is like the world ruler, the coming Messiah. So what is he called? He's called Wonderful Counselor. Right now, some people relate that to the Holy Spirit, interestingly, Mighty God. Some would relate that to the Father. Maybe others are trying to find other definitions there of Everlasting Father. Is that about the Father is a prince of peace? Is this Unitarian? Is it saying that Jesus is the Holy Spirit? He's also the Father. He's also the Prince of Peace. And maybe Mighty God is. He's like all three is at one. And it's actually Unitarian. I don't believe that's the case. So I think that's a False interpretation of the passage. And that's not how the New Testament interprets it. Jesus has never called the Father in the New Testament. He repeatedly refers to the Father as being different in some ways than Himself. And he's his Father, my Father. He actually prays to the Father. It's not me with two puppet doing this. Like, I'll call this one Jesus, and I'll call this one the Father. And I'm like, holy Father, thank you for showing these things to my disciples that they may know you. And I'm like, and you, yes, Son, I am well pleased. This is the picture of the Incarnation on Unitarianism. It doesn't make sense. No, I don't think that's it at all. Strong New Testament passages refute the idea that Jesus is the Father in the trinitarian sense of being God the Father. But he's God. He's clearly God. That phrase, mighty God, clearly he is referred to as God here. His name shall be called Mighty God. And there's a whole study on that. Okay, what else could everlasting Father be referred to be referring to? One trail to chase down is the concept that this could be Father of Eternity, that it's not he's the Father categorically. It's meaning that he's eternal. It's speaking of not his identity as Father versus Son versus Spirit or something like that, but it's speaking about his eternality. The Son is born and he is from Everlasting. He is eternal. That and so one in one other translation possible, Father of Eternity. I'll dig more into that before. By Christmas time, when you guys are all singing these songs, I'll do something. All right. I know there's more that should be said, but that's what I've got for today. Number eight. All right. Hi, Mike. Thank you for your ministry. Fruity Pebbles. Asking this question, what are your opinions on best practice for meaningful church membership? For a specific example, should baptizing someone immediately make. Make them a member? Okay, so I don't know best practices. To me, that's a high standard. But I can say some things that I think are healthy things that I see happening in churches now. I was part of Calvary Chapels for many years, and I was never a member of the church in an official sense. Like, I never went through a process and then became a church member. That is not true. Now I'm over at a church where I'm actually a member. Okay. So I went through the membership classes. I signed the Statement of Faith, and I thought that Process was awesome. Okay. Being someone who early Calvary days, I would have been suspicious of membership. I would have thought of membership as, like, religious control. And that's how it was couched, even from some of the leaders in the movement. But what they'll do is then they'll send a members list, because they have to legally send a members list into the government to show that they're a real church. Like my ministry. This is not a church. I have no members. If you're a church, legally, you want to be a registered church, you have to have actual members. So they get around this. Calvary chapels get around this. Many churches probably do by just submitting the names of whoever has tithed, maybe regularly or maybe once, I don't know. So they submit these names as members of the church, which seems questionable to me, because these people, are they members of your church or not? Our church has no membership, and they're like, hey, government, these are our members. That seems a little fishy to do that practice. I'll just put it out there. But now I'm no longer suspicious of membership. I think that it's a healthy thing. I think it's a good thing. And I have a number of reasons why, and it took me years to come to that conclusion. So one of the reasons is church discipline. The Bible actually demands church discipline. And you can see the desperate need for church discipline in churches where it's not just kicking people out. Church discipline isn't just kicking people out. The hard part of church discipline is not that part. That's hard, but it's not the hardest part. The harder part is you're actually confronting sin amongst the people that are in your midst and trying to bring them to restoration in their walk with God and to overcome sin. That's discipleship, man. That is powerful. That sanctifies the entire congregation, which, when you know that can't be tolerated. But we love you. Let's help you overcome this. Let's go to you and confront you in a spirit of gentleness, seeking to restore you. That's the thing that gets missed often when there isn't actual official membership, because there's no leverage. There's no final sense of we can actually ask you and we'll ask you to leave, but we don't want to. You are part of us, and we want to restore you. Membership helps that. Now, how does membership have to happen? Oh, there's a number of other things. I'll give you more benefits if you do membership in the way it was done recently. A Few years ago or whenever it was me and my wife did it. The process was we sat down and we went through the statement of faith for the church and for the denomination, the EV Free. And so we go through the statement of faith and then I'm asking questions. I was like, hey, the statement of faith says this here. I could sign it if we mean this. I couldn't sign it if it means that, you know, And I'm like asking those kinds of questions. And we're working through it with the elders. They're there. You're getting a personal relationship with some of the elders that are right there in the presence. The pastors we use, we usually use the word elder, which I like because that's a biblical term. But with the pastors of the church, it's not Mormon guys, don't worry. And we're talking with them, we're asking questions, we're getting our thoughts answered and, and it's teaching theology. There's someone who may have been at Church for 30 years and they've never really learned good theology. They just know Bible stories. And so that church membership process is the time to catechize your members to teach them theology. So they walk through a several week class where you're learning theology and all that. Now that's official belonging in the local church. That's not the same as saying you are now a member of Christ's body because you're actually officially in the heavenly sense, you're a member of the body of Christ the moment you get saved. And baptism is a public affirmation of their accepting you into the body of Christ. We don't need church membership in that official sense that I'm describing here. If we just treat baptism, local church baptism, as official membership, where we just say, hey, we catechize you because we're not going to baptize you unless you know the gospel. So we give you the gospel, we make sure you know it, then we baptize you. You're officially part of us. We will officially remove you if need be, but we're going to also disciple you and care for you. If we treat baptism like that, maybe we don't need as much of the membership stuff, but man, there was such great benefit in doing the classes and doing the catechesis stuff that was in there. I know that sounds like a Catholic term. It just means you're teaching them through the basics of the faith. It's not a Catholic term. It doesn't belong to Catholicism. That's really good. That's really Good stuff. Lots of good things that come out of that. And maybe that's what's needed. If your church is too big for everyone to know everyone, then you got to have some sort of more official process for people, I think, because otherwise they just come and they show up and then they go to get baptized. And what happens is they go to a pastor and they go, hey, I want to get baptized. And then you're like, oh, let's meet once or twice and we'll talk about it. Maybe we'll just meet once, you know, the gospel. And they go, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're like, they're not really getting the theology that we think they need, so there should be something, something to give them more. You know, some churches, Calvary's, and they've done this for many years. Calvary. This was a very good thing. New believers classes, they would have new believers courses where people would go, new Christians would be encouraged, go through these classes. We're going to talk about basic theology, we're going to talk about basic Bible study. What is the Bible? How do you read it? We're going to go over all those types of things. It was super good and super healthy. And so we need to teach the theology to people. We need official. For them to belong to the church in some capacity. And we need the ability to excommunicate. And if you have official belonging and a genuine ability and willingness to kick people out and to say you officially don't belong, then what automatically tends to happen is discipleship in the middle of that. Right. Because that sets the stage for true. I think discipleship, it's a good thing. So if you're part of a church and they have membership but you have not done it, I think you should. And worst case scenario, you find out, oh, they're actually teaching things I can't even agree with. Well, you better find out that now. All right, Number nine, Second Peter three nine says, Google it. Or no, that's your name. Okay. Does Hebrews 2:16 imply fallen angels can never be forgiven? If not, what else could it mean? So thankful for your ministry. Keep fighting the good fight. Thanks, man. I do appreciate that. Or woman, whichever one you are. Okay. Hebrews 2:16. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. All right, we gotta back up. We gotta back up. Whoa, I backed way up. I'm going to go back to verse 10. Okay. Talking about Jesus. Obviously it says it was fitting that he for whom and by whom. Actually, no, I need to back up more. Because the Incarnation is important to understand what we just read all verse nine. But we see him who was, for a little while, was made lower than the angels, right? So he wasn't made an angel. He was higher than the angels. And then he was made lower than angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God, he might taste death for everyone. Jesus was made lower than angels. He was made into human. His human death was vicarious in part because he is human. Now he's also God. He never ceased being God, but He took on humanity. So he has two natures, right? The divine nature and human nature. So he tastes death for everyone, everyone being people, because he took on our form. For it was fitting that he for whom and by whom are all things. Excuse me, let me read that again. I think I have King James in my brain again. For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying, I will tell of your name to my brothers in the midst of the congregation. I will sing your praise. And again I will put my trust in him. And again, behold, I and the children God has given me. Since therefore, the children share in flesh and blood, that is humans, so all the contexts of people who are getting saved, those are humans. He took on human form to save humans. Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, flesh and blood, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is the devil, and deliver all those who, through fear of death, were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. The help is salvific in this case. I think that it is implied in this passage because Jesus helps and saves humans and he had to take on human flesh to do it. He had to die a human death to save a bunch of humans. And then it says, he's not helping angels. The statement here is that the salvation Jesus offers through the cross is not available to angels. Not available to angels. Now, you could, if you wanted to do wild theological speculations which you have to be cautious with, but you could say, well, maybe angels don't have Jesus as a path to salvation, but maybe fallen angels have some other path back into the grace. Of God or into the. Into, you know, the kingdom. I think that not only is that raised, like, serious concerns about. So they have sins that are somehow atoned for apart from Jesus, like that. That seems like it raises some serious theological problems. I would not want to suggest that. But also we have this revelation stuff that we read about later where it looks as though Satan and his angels. I mean, it more than looks. It says they're all going to be cast in the lake of fire and they're all cast down. They're all kicked out. They're not part of the kingdom. So we have the fall. We have him and his people, who actually Satan and his crew are targeted for destruction even in the death and resurrection of Jesus. So he's not atoning for them, he's judging them, in a sense, through that. So I think the answer to your question is that this passage means. Let me read it one more time, make sure I got your question right. Does it imply fallen angels can never be forgiven? Yes, basically. At least that they won't be forgiven. There's nothing available for them Now. Maybe someone says, well, that's wrong. That's evil. If anybody feels that in your heart right now, well, that's wrong. I want to caution you that it's actually a red flag that you should really pay attention to because perhaps some part of your heart is actually thinking you deserve the grace of God. And when you heard angels don't have it available to them in the same way it's available to you, you felt like that was wrong. Because somewhere in your heart you think you deserve God's grace. Which is a great irony, because if grace is grace, you don't deserve it. You don't deserve it. God would be righteous to not save us. He's gracious and loving to save us, but he's under no obligation to save anybody. That kind of entitlement is not biblical, although it can happen in our hearts. And it's cool to see the red flag and go, wait a minute. I felt bad for angels. Like, I can't believe God doesn't give them a chance. Like, why not give Satan a chance to be saved? I don't think he does. I don't see it in scripture in any way. And it seems like it's implied that that's not there. But to feel that that is somehow wrong is revealing that there's an entitlement in my heart in relation to the gospel of Christ. I'll bet you also have a problem with hell. You probably feel there's A good chance. And this doesn't mean you're not saved. No, this is about assessing our beliefs and our feelings to see if they're biblical. A very healthy thing to do as a Christian. But you may have a problem with hell where you're feeling like it's actually sort of unjust. It feels unfair that God would punish people with hell. And I'd say, oh well, you're just not perceiving the actual grace of God. You think it's not grace. You think it's just kind of he's being nice. And so that's a biblical thinking problem that you may have. One can also point out a significant difference between angels and us angels. So we start Adam and Eve in the garden, innocent and unaware. And then they not unaware of anything, but unaware of the stuff that they became aware of when they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Whereas angels came from in the presence of God, full time, worshiping God, knowing God, experiencing God in his incredible glory, and then chose to fell. So the nature of that fall was different. It was different. It wasn't eating of tree deception. Some desire that was there, but it was like a willful I'm going to rebel against the God that I know that is true. There's more knowledge that was there. So there's one difference that's there. Anyway. Question number 10, anonymous question says, I often obsess over others opinions of me and seek emotional validation deeply. How do I become freed from the need to be validated by others and is there a way to satisfy that need in the Lord? Great question, great question. I often obsess over others opinions of me and seek emotional validation deeply. How do I become freed from the need to be validated by others? And is there a way to satisfy that need in the Lord? I'll answer in reverse. Is there a way to satisfy our needs to be validated in the Lord? I think biblically there is. There are many examples of those who live to please God and they don't live to please man. Let me give you a quick verse on this. Galatians 1:10. This is where Paul is talking about how he lives and it shows this juxtaposition. And this is where you realize there's actually some really dangerous traps in your sense for need for validation in our modern sociological way of looking at things we might think of. My need for validation is like, oh, I struggle with the need for validation. It may actually be worse than that. It might be that this is a very dangerous trap that will cause you to do some really bad, regretful things. And this verse will maybe help show that. Paul says, if we, even if we are an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preach to you, let him be accursed. And by that he means you're accursed to damnation, spiritual damnation, as we have said before. So now I say again, if anyone, anyone that could be an apostle. Yep. This is a Sola scriptura passage. Absolutely. People try to laugh when I say that. And I'm like, it is. It is. You can laugh all you want. Paul himself is tested by the gospel, which is enshrined now in Scripture, that sola scriptor, man, if anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. For am I now seeking the approval of man or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. That is the verse. My desire for validation will put me at odds with my service of Christ. That's the nature of things. This is why repeatedly God tells them in the Old Testament, he tells his prophets, like, don't be afraid of their faces. I remember telling myself this as a younger minister in church. I would be up preaching, and I was, here's the thing. If you've never taught in church or been on stage, there's something you have to understand is you see their faces and people, it's like they don't notice that you're seeing their faces when you're preaching. They're just watching. But they're often not very aware that you're watching their facial expressions, even as you teach. Now, some pastors, they get past this by just always looking above everybody or past everybody, because it's, like, distracting. But I remember reading in the prophets, reading, don't be afraid of their faces. And I thought, I need that word, because I was just nervous. And I was nervous that what I shared was being evaluated and my presence and whether I said or the way I look and everything's being under a microscope, and it just felt weird. But I knew that I had something that I'd studied in the Word, that I'd prayed over for many hours of just preparation and prayer and study. And I wanted to bring it. I thought it would benefit the people, but I didn't know the people would like it. And that was a concern. And that was something you have to overcome to be a pastor. You have to share the things, whether they like it or not and deal with the fallout. There's times where as a pastor you'll share stuff and it will cause turmoil and cause some issues and you just have to. You got to do it anyway. So that conflict gives you this passage, that kind of conflict. If I were trying to please men, I wouldn't be a servant of Christ. Now why do I please men? Is it because I love men? Oh, that's what I'll tell myself. I just love people so much. But I'm actually trying to please them so that they'll be pleased with me. That's the reason why. And that's the validation often we're seeking is I'm looking for people to be pleased with me. And this leads me into all kinds of compromise where I do things that pleasure them but do not pleasure God. So, yes, you already know the answer to this. It's baked into your question. You already know it. How do I become free from the need to be validated by others? And is there a way to satisfy that need in the Lord? That's exactly it. You go, I'm going to live to be pleasing to God, fully pleasing to him. And I'm not going to evaluate whether or not you're even pleased with me. It's enough for me to know that God is approving of me. That's all I need. And if the whole world loves me and the Lord is thinking, you're really blowing it. I don't approve of that. That matters more. That matters more. So that's a long haul thing. You said you often obsess over others opinions of you. One thing that will help you is step out and do the right thing in circumstances where people don't like you for it. And then you'll get used to it over time. This has been my experience. You get used to it over time. You just grow more and more okay with it over time. There's times where it will really bother you. And you go to the Lord and you say, lord, show me if there's something I've done that was wrong here. They're upset with me. I think I did the right thing. I think I honored you in this. If I'm in error, show me, Lord, because I want to please you. But if they're just mad at me for doing what's right, they did that to Jesus, they did that to the apostles, they did that to the prophets. Doesn't make me Jesus or an apostle or prophet, but their examples show me that, that I should not let this slow me down. Every Christian Needs to be armed with the ability to have people who really don't like you and act cruel to you when you're doing the right thing and you're okay with it. That's very important. Very, very important. So march towards that. Move towards that. It'll take time. Read the Scriptures, read the prophets, read Jeremiah, read what they went through and learn from those examples. Okay, there's a bonus question for today. I haven't read it yet. I don't read any of these until I get them sent because they're live. Questions. This is. Bonus ones are usually just for fun. So you guys know. So who is your favorite Lord of the Rings character and why? Who is your favorite Lord of the Rings character and why? Oh, that is a hard question. That is a rough one. I feel like I most closely identify with Treebeard because he's the one who said he's the int. Who said that. It takes a long time to say anything in Old Entish, and we don't say anything unless it's worth taking a long time to say it. I feel like I identify so much with that. Favorites. Okay, well, the books and the movies are all very different. Like, I really like Faramir in the book. In the movie, he's cool, you know. Well, it's not the same. Most of the characters I like, I actually like Aragorn better in the movies than in the book. As far as character goes. Favorite character in the movies, it's split. One of them for sure is Sam. Yeah, like Sam potatoes. Boil them, mash them, stick them in a stew. That's a good one. Let me think. This is important stuff, guys. I'm gonna take a while to answer this question. Let me think. Let's ponder this stuff. Yeah, Faramir I like a lot in the books. He has this thing from like, Denethor, his dad, where he's just like, super insightful. He listens carefully, figures things out, and it's kind of a cool thing. Yeah, it's not Tom Bombadil. I'll tell you. I'm gonna irritate some of. Some of the real book fans. Tom Bombadil, I don't understand him in the story like a lot of people. Maybe that's my literary ignorance. I don't get it. I've heard the explanations. It just doesn't land for me. Yeah, yeah. I'll just. I'll go with. I guess I'll go with Sam. Why not? Why not go with Sam? Stalwart, self sacrificial, courageous and humble. Sam I like him and I'm going with you. Right? Okay, guys, that's it. I'm going to close this thing in prayer. I'm not going to give you guys more updates right now. There's tons of things that are cooking right now. And it will come out as it comes out. The agenda and goal behind all these videos I'm doing about COVID up culture and stuff is for the blessing on the body of Christ. And it really is changing things. I keep hearing reports denomination. I know of a denomination that is like looking at changing their policies on stuff internally after this stuff is coming out that I'm aware of. There's other individual churches. Things are shifting and changing in some great ways. And it's because I think that trust that I had is being rewarded. Not just me, there's a bunch of people doing the same work I'm doing. Right? The trust that we had is being rewarded. That if we could just expose these things as scripture tells us to, that the church will take the momentum of that and they will start self correcting. And in some cases it means people will leave ministries or ministries will shut down, like Todd White's ministry should shut down, in my opinion. But in other cases, maybe there will be like radical reform where there can be internal transformation and that things will look different in the future. And there will be that real genuine humility, ownership and transformation. And that's awesome to think about. So let's pray. Father, we thank you for your word. It is a lamp to our feet and a light to our path. And it tells us to do in simple words, to do things that some cases we're not doing. And we pray that you'd help us all to see it. We just humbly pray right now, Lord, each of us. Open up our eyes to see in your word the obvious issues that we're facing personally in our lives, in our marriage, in our singleness, in our family, in our walk with you. The obvious things show us again through the scripture those things that we might head off disasters from happening in the future by just responding now to the simple correction of your word in Jesus name. All right, y'. All. Lord bless you. See you guys. No, next Friday we're not. There's no stream next Friday. There is gonna be the one after that. I believe. But I think. Or am I out of town? I might be gone for two. I'm gonna be doing the Blessed God Summit with Ruslan the 6th or 7th of March. 6th and 7th of March. You can check that out. Bless God summit. You can Google it if you want to see. That's down in San Diego. All right, take care.