BibleThinker – Ep. 41: "How much should pastors be paid? 10 Qs with Mike Winger" (Jan 10, 2025) - Detailed Summary

Overview

In this episode, Mike Winger tackles a topic often avoided in church settings: How much should pastors be paid? He roots the conversation in direct biblical examination, reflecting on his personal experiences in ministry, and addresses widespread misconceptions and abuses regarding pastoral compensation. The episode also features a series of listener Q&As, addressing subjects from spiritual gifts to images in worship and more. Mike’s candidness, scriptural depth, and gentle humor make the discussion accessible and practical for churches, pastors, and congregants alike.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Should Pastors Be Paid? Mike’s Disclaimer & Experience (00:03–12:25)

• Biblical Assumption: “Whether pastors should be paid or not is not really debatable. Biblically speaking—yeah, they should be paid.” (00:36)
• Mike's Story: Mike shares his own journey as an underpaid/volunteer minister, supplementing income with secular work (e.g., teaching guitar, Uber driving), unable to save for retirement until later years. He notes the prevalence of “pastors in poverty or very low income situations than we do rich pastors” (01:30).
• Contentment Despite Lack: “Even if you’re underpaid, you can be content—whether you’re a pastor or someone else.” (02:20)

2. What the Bible REALLY Says About Pastor Pay (12:25–40:00)

• Condemnation of Abuses: Clearly distinguishes his discussion from abuses (e.g., T.D. Jakes’ large honorariums). His focus: local church pastors, not celebrity preachers (04:15).
• Addressing Mormon Criticisms: Points to Mormon pride in unpaid clergy as “unbiblical…false pride” (05:00).
• Paul’s Example & the Right to Compensation:
  • 2 Thessalonians 3:8: Paul’s choice not to be paid as a missionary context, not precedent for unpaid pastors.
  • 2 Corinthians 11:8-9: Paul accepted support (missionary model).
  • Malachi 3:5: Withholding wages is condemned: “holding back what you should pay people…is a specific thing that’s called out as sin that God judges in Scripture.” (21:00)
• Employer-Employee Analogy: Church as the employer, responsible for pastors’ well-being, including health insurance, retirement, etc. (24:00)
• Practical Realities: Acknowledges churches may not have funds—but intent and consideration matter. “We should at least consider this: ‘Hey, Pastor, you are worth more. This is what we’ve got.’ That’s okay. That’s part of real life.” (38:25)

3. The “Double Honor” Principle: How Much Is Enough? (40:00–56:00)

• 1 Timothy 5:17-18:
  • “Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.”
  • Mike: “Every word there is important, including especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.” (42:10)
• Meaning of ‘Double Honor’:
  • Honor = material support (cf. 1 Tim 5 on supporting widows).
  • “The simplistic, obvious meaning is—more money. That’s gotta be the meaning.” (44:45) But he adds: “Pay them well—now, paying people well back then, they’re not thinking filthy riches…they’re thinking, ‘Oh good, he’s safe, he’s making OK, he’s safe.’”
  • Not all pastors deserve the same pay: “It implies different wages for different pastors. Maybe some are just better at the job and they get paid better, and that’s ok…that’s appropriate.” (48:30)
• Church’s Heart & Limitations: Affirms both biblical ideals and realities—sometimes churches cannot pay much, but should value their pastors. “To consider him worthy is a good thing, is a biblical thing.” (49:55)

4. Distinguishing Biblical Pay from Greed and Abuses (56:00–01:07:00)

• Condemnation of Prosperity Preachers: Creflo Dollar, Kenneth Copeland, etc. condemned (see 1 Timothy 6:5: “imagining that godliness is a means of gain”).
• Quotes:
  • “You don’t do ministry to get paid. You get paid so you can do ministry. There’s a huge difference between those two things.” (01:03:20)
  • “The love of money…the desire to be rich—that will lead you into all kinds of suffering and pain and anguish.” (01:05:35)
• Contentment: Pastors who are underpaid should strive for contentment: “If you have food and clothes, that’s enough.” (01:06:10)

5. Local Economic Factors Matter; “Safe” Not “Rich” Pay (01:07:00–01:09:20)

• Community cost of living: “Your pastor better make a lot more money if you live in Hawaii, and if you live in…Podunk, Kentucky…that changes the needs.” (01:08:00)
• Principle: “You look at the wage of the pastor and you go, ‘Oh no, they’ll be OK.’” (01:09:00)

6. Q&A Highlights (01:09:20–End)

Selected Notable Questions & Insights:

Q1: Speaking in Tongues – Private vs. Public Use (01:09:20–01:36:50)

• Principle: Decently, in order; must edify others.
• Key quote: “Most of the time, it’s not [OK]. If you do it without interpretation, most of the time it’s not.” (01:36:20)
• Rule: Applies outside church gatherings—do not confuse or repel unbelievers or uninformed.

Q2: Images of God/Icons – Second Commandment (01:36:50–01:50:10)

• Distinction: Not all images of spiritual things are forbidden—OT tabernacle/temple had cherubim, but never images of God.
• Caution on Idolatry: “Humans love idolatry…we are in constant danger of becoming idolaters.” (01:47:20)
• On Images of Jesus: Open to them as representations of his humanity, but warns of dangers.

Q3: “Tempted as we are” – Did Jesus experience temptation of unbelief? (01:50:10–01:56:15)

• Clarification: “In every respect” doesn’t mean every particular temptation, but the underlying types (e.g., avoidance of suffering, fear).
• Key quote: “Jesus was tempted in every respect, but not with every single temptation we’ve experienced.” (01:52:40)

Q4: Isaiah 7:14, Dual Fulfillment, & Matthew’s Use of Prophecy (01:56:15–02:03:20)

• Typology: Prophecy often partially fulfilled in OT context, ultimately fulfilled in Christ.
• “Fulfilled” in Matthew: Used in various ways, not exclusively direct predictions.

Q5: Obedience, Faith, & Salvation – Are works necessary? (02:03:20–02:10:30)

• “Obey the Gospel” = Faith: “Obeying it is believing it. Because what does the gospel tell you to do?” (02:09:45)
• Paul’s argument in Romans: Obedience here is not works, but response of faith.

Q6: Did Apostles Expect Jesus’ Return in Their Lifetime? (02:10:30–02:19:45)

• Mike’s view: Disagrees, but recommends “partial preterism” for those troubled.
• Balance: Early Christians to live ready for immediate return, but prepared for delay.

Q7: Why So Little Prayer in Services? (02:19:45–02:28:45)

• Correction: “Worship is prayer. When you are worshiping, that is an extended time of prayer—that's just what it is…If you say 40% is…singing, then you’re looking at 40% of prayer.” (02:28:15)

Q8: Irreconcilable Contradiction – Did Jesus tell disciples to take a staff or not? (02:28:45–02:32:35)

• Resolution: Possible the prohibition is against extras (not two staffs, sandals, tunics), not against having a staff at all. Encourages close reading & context.

Q9: Can I be saved if I “choose” Christianity but don’t ‘feel’ convinced? (02:32:35–02:38:55)

• Mark 9, “I believe; help my unbelief”: “This is an acceptable person to God—the one who says, ‘I believe, help my unbelief’…you can do that, and Jesus does receive you.” (02:36:45–02:38:20)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“You don’t do ministry to get paid. You get paid so you can do ministry. There’s a huge difference between those two things.” (01:03:20)

“Even if you’re underpaid, you can be content—whether you’re a pastor or someone else.” (02:20)

“The simplistic, obvious meaning [of ‘double honor’] is—more money. That’s gotta be the meaning…But pay them well. They’re not thinking filthy riches.” (44:45)

“Humans love idolatry…we are in constant danger of becoming idolaters.” (01:47:20)

“Obeying [the Gospel] is believing it. Because what does the gospel tell you to do?” (02:09:45)

“This [the father in Mark 9] is an acceptable person to God—the one who says, ‘I believe, help my unbelief’…you can do that, and Jesus does receive you.” (02:36:45)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:03: Start/Disclaimer/Mike’s personal history of pay
• 12:25: Scriptural review: Should pastors be paid?
• 24:00: Employer-employee analogy for churches/pastors
• 40:00: 1 Timothy 5:17-18 and ‘double honor’
• 56:00: Countering prosperity gospel abuses, biblical contentment
• 01:09:20: Q&A—Speaking in tongues in private/public
• 01:36:50: Q&A—Images of God and icons
• 01:50:10: Q&A—Jesus’ temptations
• 01:56:15: Q&A—Dual fulfillments and prophecy
• 02:03:20: Q&A—Obeying the Gospel: faith or works?
• 02:10:30: Q&A—Apostles’ belief in immediate return of Christ
• 02:19:45: Q&A—Prayer in church services
• 02:28:45: Q&A—Contradictory instructions re: staff for disciples
• 02:32:35: Q&A—Saving faith and doubt (“I believe, help my unbelief”)
• 02:38:55: Closing, prayer, and episode end

Final Thoughts

Mike Winger delivers a scripturally grounded, compassionate, and candid analysis of pastoral compensation, bringing clarity to a topic fraught with misunderstanding and emotional baggage. He deftly balances biblical mandates with the realities faced by pastors and congregations, always steering the conversation towards Christlikeness, contentment, and generosity.

His signature approach—moving from careful exegesis to practical application, infused with personal anecdotes and salty humor—makes this episode a valuable resource for anyone grappling with hard questions about church life, giving, and biblical leadership.