BibleThinker with Mike Winger

Episode 45: "We Can't Let Them Continue to Get Away With It: 10 Qs with Mike Winger"

Date: February 14, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Mike Winger takes on 10 questions from listeners—beginning with a deep, timely, and bold exploration of whether and how pastors who sin, abuse, or persist in disqualifying behaviors should be publicly exposed. With characteristic clarity and openness, Mike grounds his answers in scripture, shares personal ministry experiences, and directly addresses abuse, accountability, and biblical standards for leadership. The episode also touches on theological questions about prophecy, piercings, the Holy Spirit, Christian work in the afterlife, and more, all with the overarching aim: "Learn to think biblically about everything."
Mike's tone is candid, pastoral, and intense—especially as he previews ongoing investigative work regarding abuses within certain charismatic circles.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Should We Expose Pastors? (00:00–51:30)

Personal Experience with Accusations (00:00)

• Mike shares stories of facing false and unjust accusations as a pastor, noting the unique vulnerability leaders have:

  "I've had false accusations and I've had character assassinations...that hurt. And it was, I think, wrong." (00:03)

Two Dangers: False Accusation vs. Actual Wolves (00:02–00:09)

• Pastors are sometimes unfairly targeted, but real “wolves among the sheep” must not be protected by the system.
• Leaders often close ranks or misuse passages like Matthew 18 to silence victims.

Misuse of Forgiveness and Matthew 18

• Forgiveness is sometimes twisted to mean "no accountability."
• "Matthew 18" is invoked to demand only private confrontation, even in cases of public or abusive sin.

A Biblical Case for Public Exposure (00:13)

• Paul calls out false teachers by name (e.g., Hymenaeus, Philetus: 2 Timothy 2:17–18).
• Jesus confronted religious leaders publicly.
• The shame of Judas wasn't hidden:

  "If it's wrong to call out leaders, why is Judas, his shame publicly displayed?" (00:15)

Understanding 'Two or Three Witnesses' (00:19)

• Scriptural principle is about confirming truth, not literally requiring multiple eyewitnesses, especially in abuse.
• Witnesses can include circumstantial evidence, text messages, physical evidence:

  "Other witnesses can be anything that bears witness or brings evidence to support a claim that was made." (00:22)

Persistent Sin and Qualifications (00:25)

• Persistent sin isn't just a matter of continuing after confrontation—it includes long-standing hidden behaviors now revealed.
• 1 Timothy 5: "As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all..."

The Sin of Partiality (00:31)

• Churches (especially charismatic) often protect “anointed” leaders to the detriment of victims, enabling predators:

  "They're coddling someone who is a predator in their midst. They think they're doing it for the sake of ministry...But in reality they're creating a situation that enables predators and supports them." (00:33)

Taking Part in Others' Sins (00:37)

• Those who promote, platform, or fail to confront abusers "take part" in their sins by giving them legitimacy.

Nuanced Application of Matthew 18 (00:40)

• Not all situations require one-on-one confrontation, especially when safety or abuse is involved:

  "No, she shouldn't actually do that. That's unwise, that's foolish. She shouldn't go to him alone ever." (00:43)

• It's biblical to escalate when local church leadership becomes complicit or stonewalls.

Jesus Sides With The Weak (00:47)

• Mike emphasizes Jesus's concern for "the little ones," not just those in power:

  "We're all on the same playing field. And I have a larger reach...but we're all equal. Like no member of the church is less important than others." (00:48)

Principles For Evaluating Exposure (00:52)

• Is it persistent sin or an isolated lapse?
• Is there an abuse of office or disqualifying character issue?
• Expose when persistent, disqualifying, or abusive sins surface—especially when leaders are "wolves."

Quote, Ephesians 5:11

"Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them." (00:57)

2. The Danger of Gossip vs. The Call to Expose (01:00)

• Distinction: exposing sin to warn and protect vs. “enjoying” gossip.

  "Am I speaking about it in order to enjoy consuming these gossipy, tasty morsels, or am I speaking about it to shine a preventative light on it, to expose it?" (01:01)

3. Questions 2–10 (51:30–end)

Q2: Has Satan Taken a Third of the Heavenly Angels Yet? (51:30)

• Different Christian eschatologies read Revelation 12 differently.
  • Premillennial: Event happens during the Tribulation.
  • Amillennial/Postmill: Event possibly already occurred.
• Mike’s take: He leans premillennial, but holds prophecy with humility.

Q3: Flawed Biblical Figures as Justification for Sin (01:01:30)

• Some use David (or others) to excuse modern leaders’ sins.
  • David was publicly rebuked and severely punished, not quietly excused.
  • NT standards for leaders are far stricter ("rebuke them in the presence of all").

  "They will run to David, who was not a pastor...and they'll avoid the teachings of Paul the apostle..." (01:06:13)

Q4: Should Body Piercings Disqualify Worship Leaders? (01:13:36)

• Piercings are cultural and present in Scripture (e.g., nose rings, earrings).
  • "If piercings were inherently wrong, you wouldn't have that happening in the text of Scripture." (01:15:15)
• The focus should be on character, not appearance.

Q5: Indwelling of the Holy Spirit—What's Unique for Christians? (01:18:45)

• The indwelling Spirit marks a deep, abiding relationship unique to New Covenant believers.
• Old Testament figures (e.g., David) had the Spirit for specific anointing, but not in the same indwelling manner.

  "There's a deeper personal connection to God that you have that David did not have..." (01:20:01)

Q6: Does the Holy Spirit Teach Us All Things or Just the Apostles? (01:22:54)

• Jesus’ promise applies primarily to apostles, but also to believers in a secondary sense (see 1 John 2:20).
  • Not an excuse to neglect teaching or Scripture; the Spirit works in partnership with the Word.

Q7: Moses’ Father-in-Law: Why Two Names? (01:26:45)

• Jethro and Reuel are two names for the same person; nicknames and multiple identifiers were common in ancient cultures.

Q8: Failed Prophecy—Joseph Smith vs. Jonah (01:29:00)

• False prophets (Joseph Smith) should not be excused by appeals to Jonah.
  • Jonah’s prophecy was an invitation to repentance, not a failed prediction.

  "Joseph Smith is clearly a false prophet by any measure." (01:34:35)

Q9: Did Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego Know God Would Deliver Them? (01:36:45)

• They were convinced God could and would, but also submitted to the possibility He wouldn't, remaining faithful regardless.

Q10: What Kind of 'Work' Will We Do in God’s Kingdom? (01:40:23)

• Picture of new heavens and new earth implies meaningful, varied activity—not just singing forever.

  "I think there will be a great amount of activity going on in the new heaven and the new earth." (01:41:30)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On exposing public teaching:

  "If your teaching is public, you can be addressed publicly. This includes me, too." (00:14)

• On partiality & abuse:

  "They're coddling someone who is a predator in their midst. They think they're doing it for the sake of ministry...But in reality they're creating a situation that enables predators and supports them." (00:33)

• On misusing Matthew 18:

  "If you're a 15 year old girl who is taken advantage of by some leader...and then...someone says, well, did you go and tell him between you and him alone? No, she shouldn't." (00:44)

• On church accountability:

  "We need to make a hostile environment for predators and a safe environment for victims. And this is something we have to do very deliberately." (01:10:54)

• On exposing vs. gossiping:

  "Am I speaking about it in order to enjoy consuming these gossipy, tasty morsels...or am I speaking about it to shine a preventative light on it, to expose it?" (01:01:05)

Important Timestamps (rounded to closest minute)

• 00:00 — Opening and setting the main theme: exposing pastors/leaders
• 13:00 — Scriptural basis for public exposure (Paul’s example)
• 19:00 — "Two or three witnesses"—what it really means
• 25:00 — Persistent sin and the biblical standard for rebuke
• 31:00 — The sin of partiality, especially in charismatic circles
• 37:00 — Leaders who “take part in the sins of others”
• 40:00 — When Matthew 18 doesn’t apply
• 47:00 — Jesus' prioritizing of the weak
• 52:00 — Practical principles for evaluating exposure
• 57:00 — The balance between exposing abuse and gossip
• 1:01:30 — Q&A begins: Satan and the fall of the angels
• 1:06:10 — David’s example and modern leadership abuse
• 1:13:36 — Piercings and ministry qualifications
• 1:18:45 — The uniqueness of the Spirit’s indwelling
• 1:22:54 — The Holy Spirit’s teaching role
• 1:26:45 — Moses’ father-in-law’s two names
• 1:29:00 — Failed prophecy: Joseph Smith vs. Jonah
• 1:36:45 — Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego’s faith
• 1:40:23 — The nature of work in God’s kingdom

Conclusion & Preview

Mike closes by calling for prayer and accountability, especially as he takes up the difficult task of investigating (and eventually publicly exposing) systems and individuals who have enabled or perpetrated abuse in charismatic churches.
He reminds listeners that faithfulness to scripture and justice for victims is paramount, and asks for wisdom going forward.

Summary in a Nutshell

In this standout episode, Mike Winger issues a wakeup call: Biblically, sinning pastors and "wolves" must be exposed—not hidden in order to "protect the ministry." Using scripture, careful nuance, and a pastoral tone, he traces where and how leadership has failed and what faithful accountability looks like; then transitions to robust Q&A that challenges listeners to think biblically across a spectrum of tough issues.
For anyone weighing the demands of truth, grace, and spiritual authority in the church, this episode is required listening.