Podcast Summary

BibleThinker with Mike Winger: Conversation with Wes Huff
Episode Date: February 3, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode features Bible teacher and apologist Mike Winger in conversation with Wesley Huff, fellow apologist and director at Apologetics Canada. Their discussion delves into popular misconceptions about the Council of Nicaea, the doctrine of the Trinity, historical development of Christian doctrine, and lessons in responding empathetically to objections about Christianity. Throughout, the pair combine historical clarity with personal insights and a strong pastoral focus.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Personal Connection and Apologetics Background

• Mike and Wes recount their roots in Christian apologetics, highlighting early collaborations with Tim Barnett (Red Pen Logic) and Amy Hall.
• They discussed their practice of analyzing books they disagreed with, focusing on logic and theological soundness, notably works by Brian Zahnd and Andy Stanley.

  "We were basically picking books that we knew we disagreed with, and we were...pulling them apart and kind of analyzing the logic..." — Mike Winger [00:58]

2. Mythbusting the Council of Nicaea

• Popular Myths Circulating Online:
  • The council chose the books of the Bible.
  • Constantine manipulated doctrine for control.
  • The Trinity was invented there.
  • Reincarnation was "removed" from Christianity.
• Origins of the Myths:
  • Many stem from Dan Brown’s The Da Vinci Code, which borrowed from Holy Blood, Holy Grail, itself relying on Voltaire's writings—and ultimately a medieval Latin forgery.
  • The "choosing books by leaving them on a table" story traces back to the Synodicon Vitus, a known forgery.

    "...That the books of the Bible were chosen there... That's kind of the one that's floated in the Da Vinci Code...Dan Brown had [a character] propose this idea..." — Wesley Huff [03:30]

3. Clarifying What Happened at Nicaea

• Reality: The biblical canon was not decided at Nicaea.
• Scripture Usage at Nicaea:
  • The council cited Scripture as already authoritative, never discussing which books belonged.

    "...Nicaea quotes Scripture as if it's already authoritative and binding..." — Wesley Huff [06:41]

• Council's Actual Focus:
  • The main topic was the nature of Christ and the Trinity, particularly addressing the teachings of Arius (Arian controversy).

4. Early Church’s Cultural Context

• The episode emphasizes how Christian beliefs and practices interacted with surrounding cultures—borrowing language or concepts for communication, but often reframing or sanctifying them.
  • E.g., Paul citing pagan poets in Acts to connect with Greek audiences, or God co-opting existing practices (like circumcision) to give them new meaning.

    "...it's not that this is like copycatted...God is using something that has cultural understanding. And then when you add in all the things that are completely different, you see—well, actually, there's a lot more going on..." — Wesley Huff [10:04]

5. On Empathy in Apologetics

• Lessons from Experience:
  • Both speakers describe personal journeys from combative apologetics to a more empathetic, pastoral approach, with an emphasis on assuming the emotional vulnerability of questioners.

    "Assume that the person asking the question is the most vulnerable person you can think of." — Wesley Huff [16:22]

  • Logical arguments don’t always address the heart behind objections; hurt or past trauma often motivate people’s skepticism.

    "...Logically, that's not a defeater for Christianity. Logically, for that person, it is." — Mike Winger [16:18]

6. Debunking Constantine Myths

• Constantine's Conversion:
  • It’s often claimed he adopted Christianity to gain power, but previous emperors (like Diocletian) simply declared themselves gods, an easier route for control.

    "...if Constantine wanted to rule the masses, converting to Christianity and glorifying a crucified Savior—that's a disadvantage..." — Wesley Huff [12:49]

• His Role at Nicaea:
  • He commissioned the council for unity but did not dictate doctrine. Most likely, Constantine did not even attend, deliberately maintaining distance from theological decisions.

7. The Doctrine of the Trinity

• Arius and Arianism:
  • Arius taught that Jesus was divine but created—a view opposing "eternal Sonship" of Christ and the fully co-equal, co-eternal Trinity.

    "...Arius believed Jesus was divine. He just didn't believe that Jesus had eternally existed, that he was almost a lesser divine being than the Father..." — Wesley Huff [23:29]

• Modalism vs. Trinitarianism:
  • Common analogies (like water) often accidentally promote modalism (one God, three modes) rather than Christian orthodoxy.

    "There's no good analogy of the Trinity that won't devolve into a heresy." — Wesley Huff [25:07]

• Nicaea’s Achievement:
  • The council articulated formal language (one Being, three Persons) for what Christians were already confessing—a crucial development, not a doctrinal invention.
• Widespread Misunderstanding:
  • Many Christians unintentionally express modalist or other heretical ideas due to lack of theological education, not willful rejection.

    "...if you actually parse out what they believe and they start to do things like give analogies of water or eggs or four leaf clovers, are actually more accurately articulating a heresy that's condemned than they are actual biblical Trinitarian." — Wesley Huff [38:20]

8. The Bar of Trinitarian Belief

• Ignorance vs. Rejection:
  • You can be a Christian and ignorant of Trinitarian intricacies, but once biblical Trinitarianism is explained and rejected, that departs from Christianity’s core.

    "There's no doctrine, theology, test to enter into the kingdom of God. However, if proper biblical theological Trinitarianism is explained to you—and you reject that—you are rejecting the essentials of Christianity." — Wesley Huff [37:17]

9. On Deathbed Baptism and Constantine

• Deathbed Baptism:
  • Popular in the 4th century due to beliefs about original sin and the cleansing effect of baptism; not evidence of insincerity.
• Constantine Baptized by an Arian:
  • Likely circumstantial, not theological allegiance; Arianism had a resurgence after Nicaea.

    "I don't know. I don't think that was purposeful. I just think it was the fact that Arianism had a resurgence after Nicaea." — Wesley Huff [33:46]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Nicaea Myths:

  "People who couldn't name other councils in church history...know a bunch of stuff about the Council of Nicaea and it's all wrong." — Mike Winger [03:05]

• On Empathy:

  "I try to remind myself, always talk about an issue as if someone listening to you is deeply personally connected to that issue." — Mike Winger [19:34]

• On the Necessity of the Trinity:

  "Asking what does the Trinity have to do with Christianity is like asking what does my wife have to do with my marriage? And that if I don't have a wife, I don't have a marriage. And in the same way, if you don't have the Trinity, you don't actually have Christianity." — Wesley Huff [37:54]

Timeline of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Summary | |-------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:01–02:46 | Personal history and formation of their apologetics community | | 03:05–04:50 | Popular myths about the Council of Nicaea | | 06:22–07:38 | Scripture at Nicaea and confusion about the biblical canon | | 08:15–11:38 | Early church's use of culture, analogy, and confronting skeptics | | 12:49–16:22 | Empathy in apologetics; motives behind skepticism | | 19:34–22:43 | Practical lessons in apologetics and ministry | | 23:18–29:04 | History and theology of Arius, Arianism, and the Council’s real debates | | 31:02–35:23 | Development and nuances of Trinitarianism | | 35:24–39:29 | On heresy, ignorance, and grace in doctrinal understanding | | 39:32–42:45 | Wes’s new documentary series “Can I Trust the Bible?” |

Additional Resources Mentioned

• Apologetics Canada YouTube & apologeticscanada.com
• Wes Huff’s documentary series Can I Trust the Bible?, featuring episode plans on the Council of Nicaea.

Closing Remarks

The discussion between Mike Winger and Wesley Huff combines careful historical explanation, biblical fidelity, and genuine pastoral care. The episode equips listeners to differentiate between truth and myth regarding early church history (especially Nicaea), understand foundational doctrines like the Trinity, and approach tough questions with intellectual honesty and compassion.

Listen or watch more at apologeticscanada.com and BibleThinker.